New Zealand Is ‘the Future,’ Peter Thiel Said in His Push for Citizenship(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
New Zealand Is ‘the Future,’ Peter Thiel Said in His Push for Citizenship
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/01/business/peter-thiel-new-zealand-citizenship.html
69 comments
All billionaires are filthy scum and must be deported to wherever their other citizenship is and never allowed to return to US
This guy is like the villain of a Silicon Valley TV show in real life.
IIRC they've basically admitted Peter Gregory's hatred of college and general zen weirdness is based on Thiel.
Likewise, Gavin's comments on persecution of billionaires were based on real billionaire comments:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...
I'd always presumed that's who it was based on.
Relatedly, have you ever watched 'Silicon Valley?'
Why can't Thiel like New Zealand and support Trump? Isn't this a big ad hominem response to Thiel's politics?
Obligatory (because I don't care to defend things that people like to assume): I don't like Trump and didn't vote for him partly because of the stuff that's in the news now.
Obligatory (because I don't care to defend things that people like to assume): I don't like Trump and didn't vote for him partly because of the stuff that's in the news now.
In certain circles, New Zealand citizenship is seen as a rich survivalist's hedge against the collapse of American society [1]. Especially given that he's gotten this citizenship and is not intending to live there (and doesn't even travel there often enough to go through his naturalization ceremony in-country), that is the most likely motivation. And given that this is just after Thiel so enthusiastically helped Trump get elected, it's easy to see this as voter's remorse, even though Thiel started this process long before Trump was running (in fact, even before Obama was running in 2008).
[1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-f...
[1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-f...
So Thiel supported Trump and isn't a jingoist, at least not a traditional one. I guess that's interesting but not front page material for a thoughtful community.
It's clearly a response to his thoughts on the recent immigration order. But it's a long-form logical fallacy.
It's clearly a response to his thoughts on the recent immigration order. But it's a long-form logical fallacy.
Thiel made the mistake of taking Trump seriously when he should have been taking him literally.
Mmmm... I think thiel knew exactly what he was getting with trump. Let's not make excuses for the guy
I meant it as a half-joking inverse of Thiel's claim pre-election that the media takes Trump literally but not seriously [1]. It's very clear now that much of what Trump said was literal.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/10/...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2016/10/...
[deleted]
I don't think it's even a little confusing that residents of this country would have some concern about a billionaire that appears to be actively working to destroy the pillars of our civil society while simultaneously making plans to relocate to an island halfway around the world once the collapse takes place. It is, literally, as easy to understand as the plot of a comic book or James Bond movie.
It's not impossible, just somewhat at odds with the "America first" rhetoric of the Trump camp. If you think the U.S. isn't the future and you're comparison-shopping for other citizenships, that sounds more like you're part of the "globalist elite", than like you're an America-firster committed to the country.
Because by now it's well known that many billionaires are using NZ as their backup in case TSHTF. And that's way more likely than him suddely developing affection for a random country across the ocean.
Since it happened in 2011 I assume he has had his eye on a contingency plan of that nature for a while now.
I get the point. It's clearly implied in the piece and in the fact that it's on the HN front page.
My point is "it doesn't matter and I don't know why I should care". I'm more interested in rational (not fallacy-centered) responses to his thoughts.
My point is "it doesn't matter and I don't know why I should care". I'm more interested in rational (not fallacy-centered) responses to his thoughts.
Is anyone saying he cannot?
Although there was a lot of press recently about people like Thiel buying these remote places in case of some sort of global disaster. NZ is a nice place to have a pint or two and wait for the trouble to all blow over. So it may seem like pushing for Trump could increase the risk of global disaster, which Thiel has hedged against but many of us are not as fortunate to have a well stocked, remote bolt hole.
Although there was a lot of press recently about people like Thiel buying these remote places in case of some sort of global disaster. NZ is a nice place to have a pint or two and wait for the trouble to all blow over. So it may seem like pushing for Trump could increase the risk of global disaster, which Thiel has hedged against but many of us are not as fortunate to have a well stocked, remote bolt hole.
>Why can't Thiel like New Zealand and support Trump?
Because it's in bad taste to want to immigrate to / get citizenship at a country, when you're deep involved into politics that affect another country.
Because it's in bad taste to want to immigrate to / get citizenship at a country, when you're deep involved into politics that affect another country.
Seriously, having multiple citizenships is an insurance play that we would (and should) participate in if we can. As long as Thiel is not lobbying the US Government to enforce a single-citizenship rule like Germany and some other European nations employ or asking NZ to stop issuing dual-citizenship to Americans, I don't see the problem.
As a side note, New Zealand has the best immigration site I've ever seen:
https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/
As a side note, New Zealand has the best immigration site I've ever seen:
https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/
Tldr: New Zealand is corrupt and Peter Thiel bought citizenship without ever living there.
There is no mention of his helping revive the Trump campaign and how you should think "Peter Thiel" and his investments every time an executive action oppresses someone during this administration...so let's not go there.
There is no mention of his helping revive the Trump campaign and how you should think "Peter Thiel" and his investments every time an executive action oppresses someone during this administration...so let's not go there.
They gave him citizenship after he invested $7m and gave $1m to charity there. That's not really corrupt - in most countries you can move there through investing. Corrupt is when you give an envelope of cash to an official. NZ actually ranks joint #1 least corrupt country in the world with Denmark. USA is #18. http://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percepti...
Generally you stop at permanent residency (US EB-5, for instance) and can't really buy citizenship. Notable exception of course being Malta as a path to EU citizenship (pretty cheap, actually, some 650,000EUR [1]
[1] http://csbgroup.com/relocation/citizenship/malta-individual-...
[1] http://csbgroup.com/relocation/citizenship/malta-individual-...
If there's a law that allows for requirements to be waived in certain situations ("extraordinary ability"), I don't see how that is corrupt. Unfair? Maybe.
But most countries tend to give passports and/or residency rights to people investing a significant amount of money.
But most countries tend to give passports and/or residency rights to people investing a significant amount of money.
Did you also think "Bill Gates" whenever Obama droned and killed someone (he was one of his supporters/donors)?
Yes, Obama killed terrorist. He also got Osama. I will not cry for them. There was collateral damage, I feel bad for that. What was your point again?
Nothing, its totally legit to kill people, if there is a cellphone among them, that might belong to somebody opposed the US. Hence the awesome success and ongoing love for US in those areas. Which is easy to counter with more drones, I guess.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/civilian-deaths-drone-st...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/civilian-deaths-drone-st...
> terrorist [...] I will not cry for them.
Isn't this exactly the same justification that Trump uses?
Isn't this exactly the same justification that Trump uses?
So he's not actually going to be living in New Zealand ... I'd have to wonder, aside from the generous donations noted in the article what's in it for them? Will he be paying tax? Presumably he'll still have to pay tax wherever he's domiciled (California) but is there some rub here he (and NZ) could be taking advantage of?
[deleted]
New Zealand is the future, and Peter Thiel will make sure of that by giving us Trump. It all makes sense, now.
Disappointing the hackernews comments are turning into the exact same thing I've been avoiding at arstechnica, engadget, and gizmodo. A lot of rage, very little substance.
I hear you, yet I believe the substance is still there. The technical details are still very strong around here. My SO tries to read this site to understand me and is flummoxed by 98% of the content :)
Part of the questions in a hacker/entrepreneur's life or at least expert developers, are concepts like, "how to interface with civic society." As "wizards," we have a lot of power, and using it wisely and responsibly is an important way to sustain our power and create the harmonious world we all want.
In hacker form, we're seeing a number of approaches, such as aiding the ACLU (YC), isolating oneself (Thiel), try experiments (UBI). This isn't going to be the place with clear, obvious, simplistic answers. We're independent hackers and we are experimental and it helps us and the world to discuss results and tactics in gentleperson fashion.
THAT SAID :) I acknowledge your plaint about how quickly many stir to rage. Emotions need to be leveraged carefully. Allowing (and inducing) emotional states to cloud unnecessarily can be highly counterproductive to progress. I see this on nearly all sides of the discussions. I hesitate to say circumstances have warranted it, because I agree we all need to keep our heads on tight and dig deep into the facts, listen to one another and find that common ground.
In the W era, there was lots of talk about bipartisanship, crossing the aisles and also technocratic methods to achieve unity and comprehension of civic process. I know technocracy is not primary, but I would love to focus some attention toward that as a stepping stone for national harmony. Even those websites that turn your zip code into your representatives communication are a great step in the right direction. Let's keep it up.
Part of the questions in a hacker/entrepreneur's life or at least expert developers, are concepts like, "how to interface with civic society." As "wizards," we have a lot of power, and using it wisely and responsibly is an important way to sustain our power and create the harmonious world we all want.
In hacker form, we're seeing a number of approaches, such as aiding the ACLU (YC), isolating oneself (Thiel), try experiments (UBI). This isn't going to be the place with clear, obvious, simplistic answers. We're independent hackers and we are experimental and it helps us and the world to discuss results and tactics in gentleperson fashion.
THAT SAID :) I acknowledge your plaint about how quickly many stir to rage. Emotions need to be leveraged carefully. Allowing (and inducing) emotional states to cloud unnecessarily can be highly counterproductive to progress. I see this on nearly all sides of the discussions. I hesitate to say circumstances have warranted it, because I agree we all need to keep our heads on tight and dig deep into the facts, listen to one another and find that common ground.
In the W era, there was lots of talk about bipartisanship, crossing the aisles and also technocratic methods to achieve unity and comprehension of civic process. I know technocracy is not primary, but I would love to focus some attention toward that as a stepping stone for national harmony. Even those websites that turn your zip code into your representatives communication are a great step in the right direction. Let's keep it up.
Ironically your comment supports your observations.
Not sure what the point is in getting angry about what billionaires do. It's hardly like they will change their decision-making based on what HN/Reddit et al. think about them. Focus on improving yourself.
They might not change their decision-making, but since they're quite influential — including having influence on governments — it's useful to know what they're up to and whether their public pronouncements match their private behavior.
I sometimes find it therapeutic, cathartic even, to bitch and moan about things that annoy me. Especially amongst people who share my views, or challenge them. Granted, that's more the province of something like reddit, but I guess what we're seeing here is spill-over from more relevant on-topic discussion.
But ar least I will be more informed.
With the way things are going with Trump he might be right. Ironic that he's helping Trump.
Is having a place to live in NZ part of some 'prepper' survival plan?
From The New Yorker's profile of sama:
From The New Yorker's profile of sama:
“My problem is that when my friends get drunk they talk about the ways the
world will end. After a Dutch lab modified the H5N1 bird-flu virus, five
years ago, making it super contagious, the chance of a lethal synthetic
virus being released in the next twenty years became, well, nonzero.”
...
If the pandemic does come, Altman’s backup plan is to fly with his friend
Peter Thiel, the billionaire venture capitalist, to Thiel’s house in New
Zealand.
(Mobile friendly)
From The New Yorker's profile of sama:
“My problem is that when my friends get drunk they talk about the ways the world will end. After a Dutch lab modified the H5N1 bird-flu virus, five years ago, making it super contagious, the chance of a lethal synthetic virus being released in the next twenty years became, well, nonzero.
[...]
If the pandemic does come, Altman’s backup plan is to fly with his friend Peter Thiel, the billionaire venture capitalist, to Thiel’s house in New Zealand."
SOURCE: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/sam-altmans-man...
From The New Yorker's profile of sama:
“My problem is that when my friends get drunk they talk about the ways the world will end. After a Dutch lab modified the H5N1 bird-flu virus, five years ago, making it super contagious, the chance of a lethal synthetic virus being released in the next twenty years became, well, nonzero.
[...]
If the pandemic does come, Altman’s backup plan is to fly with his friend Peter Thiel, the billionaire venture capitalist, to Thiel’s house in New Zealand."
SOURCE: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/sam-altmans-man...
Apparently, yes (from a more recent New Yorker article):
> New Zealand’s reputation for attracting doomsayers is so well known in the hedge-fund manager’s circle that he prefers to differentiate himself from earlier arrivals. He said, “This is no longer about a handful of freaks worried about the world ending.” He laughed, and added, “Unless I’m one of those freaks.”
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-f...
> New Zealand’s reputation for attracting doomsayers is so well known in the hedge-fund manager’s circle that he prefers to differentiate himself from earlier arrivals. He said, “This is no longer about a handful of freaks worried about the world ending.” He laughed, and added, “Unless I’m one of those freaks.”
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-f...
Please don't use spaces to blockquote text. It's broken on mobile.
Multiple citizenships are a hedge against local instability. Having one is putting all your eggs in one basket. If all you have is US citizenship and an lets say hypothetically an orange totalitarian takes over, you're kinda stuck. You've got no legal right to live anywhere else. Another citizenship(s) affords that to you.
New Zealand is a good bet because they're (1) remote, (2) English speaking, (3) very well developed and (4) has an extremely well functioning government with among the lowest perception of corruption (5) and widely-accepted travel documents.
Particularly as a notable or wealthy individual, another citizenship can make a lot of sense.
New Zealand is a good bet because they're (1) remote, (2) English speaking, (3) very well developed and (4) has an extremely well functioning government with among the lowest perception of corruption (5) and widely-accepted travel documents.
Particularly as a notable or wealthy individual, another citizenship can make a lot of sense.
And people say techies are disconnected from reality. I mean, where did that come from amiright.
I mean, feel free to explain why. It's more interesting to have a conversation.
According to the article, he was granted citizenship there in 2011, long before Trump was serious about becoming president. There's enough fucked up shit going on right now; it delegitimizes all that stuff by saying he's using New Zealand to escape Trump.
New Zealand is a beautiful place, but it's also rather boring and small, remote and inaccessible unless you own a car for local transit and can afford plenty of plane tickets for your larger travels.
I would disagree and say that the future of the worlds environment probably looks like the opposite of New Zealand, but I'll hand it to him, the New Zealand economy does look a lot like the future of the USA in my opinion if Trump continues down his path hurting innovating industries by favouring traditional factory work: irrelevant.
As a VC Thiel is used to people saying what it takes to get what they want. I am pretty sure he's just going through the motions, much like most people who come to him asking for money in exchange for an idea that will "change the world" are doing.
I would disagree and say that the future of the worlds environment probably looks like the opposite of New Zealand, but I'll hand it to him, the New Zealand economy does look a lot like the future of the USA in my opinion if Trump continues down his path hurting innovating industries by favouring traditional factory work: irrelevant.
As a VC Thiel is used to people saying what it takes to get what they want. I am pretty sure he's just going through the motions, much like most people who come to him asking for money in exchange for an idea that will "change the world" are doing.
Mountains, glaciers, hot springs, huge forests, beaches, wineries, rugby, meat pies.
Yeah, it's a real snooze-fest.
Yeah, it's a real snooze-fest.
Like i said, beautiful, but if you like city life (large variety of places to eat, touring shows/bands to see, things other than bars being open past 6pm etc) it's certainly going to get real boring real quick.
"We have to treat our country's citizenship like an asset"
Meanwhile:
"How dare the US have different immigration laws than us"
Meanwhile:
"How dare the US have different immigration laws than us"
Even after reading the attached letter from Peter, it's not clear to me as to 'why New Zealand'.
Sure... friendly people, environment, business friendly gov, familiar culture, opportunity to contribute to startup community etc. Makes sense. But other Commonwealth countries could check those boxes too -- especially Canada -- that one would expect to be far more convenient and accessible.
Even the obvious not-spoken reason -- the isolation of New Zealand and its ability to act as a haven in case of global calamity -- could find analogues in Canada's vast wilderness for a man of his means. Actually, he might already have a landing strip and bunker somewhere next to a freshwater spring in the Canadian shield (Canada has 1/5th of the world's freshwater).
That said, Canada is locked in orbit with the US; so perhaps part of his rationale is ability to escape the US sphere of influence if needed too. Canada is also less ethnically homogenous than NZ, which some people may think will matter in a doomsday scenario. New Zealand also has much higher population density... one could imagine that mix of density and isolation being important when trying to rebuild civilization.
Sure... friendly people, environment, business friendly gov, familiar culture, opportunity to contribute to startup community etc. Makes sense. But other Commonwealth countries could check those boxes too -- especially Canada -- that one would expect to be far more convenient and accessible.
Even the obvious not-spoken reason -- the isolation of New Zealand and its ability to act as a haven in case of global calamity -- could find analogues in Canada's vast wilderness for a man of his means. Actually, he might already have a landing strip and bunker somewhere next to a freshwater spring in the Canadian shield (Canada has 1/5th of the world's freshwater).
That said, Canada is locked in orbit with the US; so perhaps part of his rationale is ability to escape the US sphere of influence if needed too. Canada is also less ethnically homogenous than NZ, which some people may think will matter in a doomsday scenario. New Zealand also has much higher population density... one could imagine that mix of density and isolation being important when trying to rebuild civilization.
NZ is ethnically homogeneous? Maybe in the South Island. Wikipedia claims 69℅ European overall which doesn't sound that high to me.
Good point. Canada is <60% European descent - but still not as big of a gap as I thought. Canada's big cities tend to be very multicultural -- Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal -- which maybe skews my perception a bit.
Can't you just picture this guy getting pulled off his chopper by zombies as he tries to flee to New Zealand? :)
Seems very consistent. Thinks US isn't great, gets backup citizenship, finds another/more direct way to make USA great again. Also consistent with his involvement in sea steading. Would make sense for him to renounce NZ now.
I don't quite get why the snarky "make NZ great again" remark was needed in the article (isn't the NYT supposed to be a reliable news source?) however I like that it was reported because I didn't know about this. I think multi-citizenship is a strange concept but I'm all for competition among countries for citizens.
I don't quite get why the snarky "make NZ great again" remark was needed in the article (isn't the NYT supposed to be a reliable news source?) however I like that it was reported because I didn't know about this. I think multi-citizenship is a strange concept but I'm all for competition among countries for citizens.
To understand Thiel, I think you have to look at how he is a dark inversion of his philosophical mentor, Rene Girard.
Girard's primary thesis is that human desires are imitative, but we refuse to acknowledge this through a repeated, romantic lie about how our desires for an "object" are authentic vs. being rooted in imitation of another. This dissonance leads to periodic eruptions of violence that are themselves too imitative and escalatory, and which are only resolved through redirecting the violence onto a scapegoat:
"If two individuals desire the same thing, there will soon be a third, then a fourth. This process quickly snowballs. Since from the beginning desire is aroused by the other (and not by the object) the object is soon forgotten and the mimetic conflict transforms into a general antagonism. At this stage of the crisis the antagonists will no longer imitate each other's desires for an object, but each other's antagonism. They wanted to share the same object, but now they want to destroy the same enemy. So, a paroxysm of violence would tend to focus on an arbitrary victim and a unanimous antipathy would, mimetically, grow against him. The brutal elimination of the victim would reduce the appetite for violence that possessed everyone a moment before, and leaves the group suddenly appeased and calm. The victim lies before the group, appearing simultaneously as the origin of the crisis and as the one responsible for this miracle of renewed peace. He becomes sacred, that is to say the bearer of the prodigious power of defusing the crisis and bringing peace back."
Girard's solution to this problem is a kind of atheistic Christianity. It's essentially incumbent on each person acknowledge the truth of these structures in human society, The innocence and subsequent false deification of scapegoats (relative to the origin of mimetic violence), and walk away from them by modeling themselves after the example of Jesus' disciples.
What I think Thiel instead calculated using this philosophy is that scapegoats are the true origin of political and economic power in all forms. Since humans want to believe the romantic lie about the sincerity of their desires, they'll willingly accept false idols and their promise of transcendence through human sacrifice. Allying yourself with a political movement based on these principles is a path to wealth and power.
By the way, this is Girard's definition of Satanism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Girard
Girard's primary thesis is that human desires are imitative, but we refuse to acknowledge this through a repeated, romantic lie about how our desires for an "object" are authentic vs. being rooted in imitation of another. This dissonance leads to periodic eruptions of violence that are themselves too imitative and escalatory, and which are only resolved through redirecting the violence onto a scapegoat:
"If two individuals desire the same thing, there will soon be a third, then a fourth. This process quickly snowballs. Since from the beginning desire is aroused by the other (and not by the object) the object is soon forgotten and the mimetic conflict transforms into a general antagonism. At this stage of the crisis the antagonists will no longer imitate each other's desires for an object, but each other's antagonism. They wanted to share the same object, but now they want to destroy the same enemy. So, a paroxysm of violence would tend to focus on an arbitrary victim and a unanimous antipathy would, mimetically, grow against him. The brutal elimination of the victim would reduce the appetite for violence that possessed everyone a moment before, and leaves the group suddenly appeased and calm. The victim lies before the group, appearing simultaneously as the origin of the crisis and as the one responsible for this miracle of renewed peace. He becomes sacred, that is to say the bearer of the prodigious power of defusing the crisis and bringing peace back."
Girard's solution to this problem is a kind of atheistic Christianity. It's essentially incumbent on each person acknowledge the truth of these structures in human society, The innocence and subsequent false deification of scapegoats (relative to the origin of mimetic violence), and walk away from them by modeling themselves after the example of Jesus' disciples.
What I think Thiel instead calculated using this philosophy is that scapegoats are the true origin of political and economic power in all forms. Since humans want to believe the romantic lie about the sincerity of their desires, they'll willingly accept false idols and their promise of transcendence through human sacrifice. Allying yourself with a political movement based on these principles is a path to wealth and power.
By the way, this is Girard's definition of Satanism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Girard
In a WW3 scenario China might conquer Aus & NZ. Why not Patagonia?