Association between polygenic risk scores for ADHD and cognitive outcomes(ije.oxfordjournals.org)
ije.oxfordjournals.org
Association between polygenic risk scores for ADHD and cognitive outcomes
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/09/28/ije.dyw216.full
35 comments
I think for every batch of successful people with ADHD, there are others still finding their way. I have ADD and my brother has ADHD. I'm super quiet, observant, and methodical at times. He's very energetic, passionate, "never give up" kind of personality. It's interesting to see the similarities and differences between us. I'm not sure if it's related to the mental disorder or just hereditary or shared personalities from growing up together, but we both didn't do well in school as our parents would hope. He was definitely a troublemaker and I was just..in my own world I suppose. I'd like to think I'm "successful". I have a steady job and able to pay the bills while affording the thrills of life. I'm extremely grateful. My brother, on the other hand, lives with my parents, working 60 hours a week and has no health benefits or paid time off. Perhaps it's part of "growing up" and I just got lucky. I'd like to think that him and I look at the world from a different lens from others but I don't think it's affording us any sort of life hacks that make us successful or brilliant.
I agree. It's just like the myth of gay people (usually being told by conservatives) running the world and being the wealthiest, because watch these famous gay people and Tim Cook. Ignoring the population as whole, many in very bad situations.
Agreed, the GP comment is classic survivor bias, you notice successful people who are affected by ADHD, you don't notice unsuccessful people (regardless of where on the spectrum they may lie).
Same here, speaking as a fellow ADHD sufferer. Perhaps a part of it is because of how IQ is measured. If memory serves (which it often does not) one of the things IQ tests is short-term working memory, something that ADHD is known to impair. Maybe this is the main culprit. It would be interesting to see the IQ scores broken down into their various categories.
Also, the thing you've observed in your friends is similar to something I've observed in myself (this can be pretty fraught, so big grain of salt). I tend to see patterns or connections between lots of little bits of seemingly unrelated data where others don't. I'm not sure if this is because I'm better at discerning patterns, or if it's because I tend to collect and store all these little odds and ends more than others normally do. It's also possibly a 'involuntarily trained' skill: quite a bit of the time I find myself scrambling to deduce what is going on based on contextual clues, because I'd been daydreaming and all of a sudden I find someone asking me "so what's you opinion?"
Frankly it's more of a curse than anything. I sometimes feel as if I'm pleading with someone to "step off the train tracks" because I can see a train bearing down on them, and they adamantly refuse because they see no such thing.
Also, the thing you've observed in your friends is similar to something I've observed in myself (this can be pretty fraught, so big grain of salt). I tend to see patterns or connections between lots of little bits of seemingly unrelated data where others don't. I'm not sure if this is because I'm better at discerning patterns, or if it's because I tend to collect and store all these little odds and ends more than others normally do. It's also possibly a 'involuntarily trained' skill: quite a bit of the time I find myself scrambling to deduce what is going on based on contextual clues, because I'd been daydreaming and all of a sudden I find someone asking me "so what's you opinion?"
Frankly it's more of a curse than anything. I sometimes feel as if I'm pleading with someone to "step off the train tracks" because I can see a train bearing down on them, and they adamantly refuse because they see no such thing.
> 4. Some combination of the above theories.
This gets my vote. I've met brilliant ADHD hacker-types, overall average normal folks, and drop-out homeless people. They all did poorly in school but the rest seems up in the air.
I suspect there are several comorbid complementary/incompatible genetic mutations, which lead to above-average or below-average mental faculties, and a nurture component of learning how to effectively manage the condition. We're probably observing evolution in action here.
This gets my vote. I've met brilliant ADHD hacker-types, overall average normal folks, and drop-out homeless people. They all did poorly in school but the rest seems up in the air.
I suspect there are several comorbid complementary/incompatible genetic mutations, which lead to above-average or below-average mental faculties, and a nurture component of learning how to effectively manage the condition. We're probably observing evolution in action here.
> [quoting gilles deleuze] Many young people strangely boast of being "motivated";
they re-request apprenticeships and permanent training. It's
up to them to discover what they're being made to serve, just
as their elders discovered, not without difficulty, the telos of
the disciplines.
>What must be discovered is a way out of the motivation/ demotivation binary, so that disidentification from the control program registers as something other than dejected apathy. One strategy would be to shift the political terrain - to move away from the unions' traditional focus on pay and onto forms of discontent specific to post-Fordism. Before we analyse that further, we must consider in more depth what post-Fordism actually is."
Mark Fisher - Capitalist Realism
>What must be discovered is a way out of the motivation/ demotivation binary, so that disidentification from the control program registers as something other than dejected apathy. One strategy would be to shift the political terrain - to move away from the unions' traditional focus on pay and onto forms of discontent specific to post-Fordism. Before we analyse that further, we must consider in more depth what post-Fordism actually is."
Mark Fisher - Capitalist Realism
I was once diagnosed with ADHD myself as a child. I have been unmedicated for 8 years now and been quite successful career wise, and academically. Though I do wonder if I could do better had I not had ADHD.
its not fair to conduct these studies solely on educational outcomes because educational outcomes in the west largely depend on how well you conform to the mean societal expectation of a successful archetype. many people have unique educational styles (ADHDers included). I myself personally learned more from the internet and reading books than I ever did in school.
I suspect successful engineers, start up CEOs, hacker types have higher prevalences of "learning disorders", ADHD, etc. Many did poorly in school, though many also excelled. I also suspect the same demographics are true of musicians and other artists.
The MAJOR caveat here, is that while these groups probably have higher prevalences, and these fields are more or less supportive of people with these issues, very few ADHDers can break into these fields and the average ADHDer probably will perform worse in life than the average person without.
Mostly conjecture, based on my own anecdotal evidence, but worth consideration.
its not fair to conduct these studies solely on educational outcomes because educational outcomes in the west largely depend on how well you conform to the mean societal expectation of a successful archetype. many people have unique educational styles (ADHDers included). I myself personally learned more from the internet and reading books than I ever did in school.
I suspect successful engineers, start up CEOs, hacker types have higher prevalences of "learning disorders", ADHD, etc. Many did poorly in school, though many also excelled. I also suspect the same demographics are true of musicians and other artists.
The MAJOR caveat here, is that while these groups probably have higher prevalences, and these fields are more or less supportive of people with these issues, very few ADHDers can break into these fields and the average ADHDer probably will perform worse in life than the average person without.
Mostly conjecture, based on my own anecdotal evidence, but worth consideration.
Dodgy data.
In the UK/IE system GCSEs morphed between 1990 and 2010 with exams replaced by coursework - which is quicksand for ADHD types. This is a coursework cohort from 2007-2008.
Now and before 1990, GCSEs at 16yo are memory tests in an exam hall almost designed for hyperfocus. It is relatively easier for a ADHDer to "wing it".
What would be more interesting, is to see how many fell down on mainly course-work assessment versus mainly exam assessment. Also, comparison between 16yo GCSE results and 18yo A level results.
[Disclaimer: ADHD PhD who failed A Levels]
In the UK/IE system GCSEs morphed between 1990 and 2010 with exams replaced by coursework - which is quicksand for ADHD types. This is a coursework cohort from 2007-2008.
Now and before 1990, GCSEs at 16yo are memory tests in an exam hall almost designed for hyperfocus. It is relatively easier for a ADHDer to "wing it".
What would be more interesting, is to see how many fell down on mainly course-work assessment versus mainly exam assessment. Also, comparison between 16yo GCSE results and 18yo A level results.
[Disclaimer: ADHD PhD who failed A Levels]
Can someone summarize this for me? ;)
Hi. I'm 10. I have ADHD and ODD. I'm smart but frustrate easily and call people stupid. But If I can escape the anxiety I am nice. Advice?
Assuming you're not trolling, it's impressive that you're 10 and on HN. I think modern culture, in a bad way, encourages people to take their inclinations to the extreme. If you have ADHD, you're not just someone with that particular medical condition, you're "an impatient genius who has no tolerance for BS or stupidity." That's not to say you think of yourself as such, just that people are rewarded for acting consistently with a memefied Hollywood stereotype of themselves. This in turn influences and reinforces behavior.
Focus on how you can utilize your mental makeup to shape your life rather than bend others. Reduction of zero-sum dog eat dog thinking would help ameliorate any social aspect of your anxiety. I didn't have much to go off of from your post but I hope that helps.
Focus on how you can utilize your mental makeup to shape your life rather than bend others. Reduction of zero-sum dog eat dog thinking would help ameliorate any social aspect of your anxiety. I didn't have much to go off of from your post but I hope that helps.
I'd say it's not so much as impressive as it is fortunate (providential, even) for someone with a certain kind of mind: I would definitely have benefited if I'd found HN a few years earlier than I did (rather than Reddit, ha).
Just be aware of how you function and work around it. At 32, things are still stressful, but I manage alot netter and have developed a sense if humor to help cope. Read books! Learn jokes and Ice breakers!
The challenge in the end, I suppose, is to overcome yourself. Being 10, you're only starting, and things will get better, especially mid-twenties, so you've a good road to walk. Step by step :)
The challenge in the end, I suppose, is to overcome yourself. Being 10, you're only starting, and things will get better, especially mid-twenties, so you've a good road to walk. Step by step :)
Has GWAS become a reliable means of identifying causal variants? How have the methods evolved over the last five years? What are the big success stories?
I work a bit in the field - GWAS is still not identifying causal variants, only linked variants.
There are tons and tons and tons of publications that keep on getting published on running similar datasets with the same methods (PCA, regression or MLM, done) and then reporting the associated SNPs. In humans these papers are getting huge with massive datasets, like this one: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/05/27/019885
There was also this interesting paper which relied on a very specific configuration of a human population, you cannot do that with for example Brits: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/12/031518
By its very nature GWAS cannot prove a causal relationship, I'm now hoping that CRISPR-Cas9 can provide for that - use GWAS to find candidate SNPs, use CRISPR to introduce those SNPs in an unaffected population, measure phenotype changes. Of course with sequencing getting so cheap you can start with SNP calling and get a much more comprehensive picture by looking at large scale insertions and deletions by just looking at the whole genome, like this paper for 10,000 (!!!) humans: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/01/061663
There are tons and tons and tons of publications that keep on getting published on running similar datasets with the same methods (PCA, regression or MLM, done) and then reporting the associated SNPs. In humans these papers are getting huge with massive datasets, like this one: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/05/27/019885
There was also this interesting paper which relied on a very specific configuration of a human population, you cannot do that with for example Brits: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/12/031518
By its very nature GWAS cannot prove a causal relationship, I'm now hoping that CRISPR-Cas9 can provide for that - use GWAS to find candidate SNPs, use CRISPR to introduce those SNPs in an unaffected population, measure phenotype changes. Of course with sequencing getting so cheap you can start with SNP calling and get a much more comprehensive picture by looking at large scale insertions and deletions by just looking at the whole genome, like this paper for 10,000 (!!!) humans: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/07/01/061663
Thanks. Are the GWAS's the primary justification for the sequencing efforts generating the data they're analyzing?
I'd say the primary motivation for the sequencing efforts is that we're hitting the limits at what we can detect using SNPs. We now know of many inversions, deletions, insertions which are linked to phenotypes, and often you don't have a SNP positioned close enough to detect a signal. It's just easier and more comprehensive to align the genomic reads directly to detect these rearrangements than it is to look for a null signal in the SNP dataset.
What do you do with those associations, once you've found them? Are they helping to elucidate the biology of the phenotype?
There are many things you can do with the association, here's a non-exhaustive list:
- do the SNPs cause changes in a gene of interest? are the changes synonymous (cause base change, but the protein amino acid is identical since several codons code for the same amino acid, but this can cause problems in mRNA folding)? Are the changes non-synonymous (cause base change, and a different amino acid)? How strong are the non-synonymous changes? It could be that you get a shorter protein because a SNP introduced an early STOP codon, or changes a hydrophile to a hydrophobe amino acid, etc. From there you can check whether this change influences the phenotype by introducing this changed protein into another individual to see whether the phenotype is reproduced, this rarely works in more complex species as you don't have a single gene -> single phenotype cause
- you can use the ratio of synonymous/non-synonymous SNPs to approximate selection: genes under positive selection show more non-synonymous changes, these are usually genes involved in resistance who have to keep up with fungal/viral invaders, or venom genes, etc., genes under negative selection show more synonymous changes, these are usually housekeeping genes or other single copy genes that are important
- are the SNPs closely upstream or downstream from a gene of interest? It's still a bit hard to find binding sites for transcription factors (esp. outside of model species), so the SNP could be in a binding site where the whole transcription apparatus binds - do we see different transcription level for this gene in other individuals without the SNP?
- after DNA folding, is the SNP close to an interesting gene? Only with new HiC data can we test this, SNPs that were >10,000 base pairs away are after folding right next to the gene
- is the SNP in Linkage Disequilibrium with something interesting? In other words, is the SNP inherited together with something interesting? This could point towards selection
- do the SNPs cause changes in a gene of interest? are the changes synonymous (cause base change, but the protein amino acid is identical since several codons code for the same amino acid, but this can cause problems in mRNA folding)? Are the changes non-synonymous (cause base change, and a different amino acid)? How strong are the non-synonymous changes? It could be that you get a shorter protein because a SNP introduced an early STOP codon, or changes a hydrophile to a hydrophobe amino acid, etc. From there you can check whether this change influences the phenotype by introducing this changed protein into another individual to see whether the phenotype is reproduced, this rarely works in more complex species as you don't have a single gene -> single phenotype cause
- you can use the ratio of synonymous/non-synonymous SNPs to approximate selection: genes under positive selection show more non-synonymous changes, these are usually genes involved in resistance who have to keep up with fungal/viral invaders, or venom genes, etc., genes under negative selection show more synonymous changes, these are usually housekeeping genes or other single copy genes that are important
- are the SNPs closely upstream or downstream from a gene of interest? It's still a bit hard to find binding sites for transcription factors (esp. outside of model species), so the SNP could be in a binding site where the whole transcription apparatus binds - do we see different transcription level for this gene in other individuals without the SNP?
- after DNA folding, is the SNP close to an interesting gene? Only with new HiC data can we test this, SNPs that were >10,000 base pairs away are after folding right next to the gene
- is the SNP in Linkage Disequilibrium with something interesting? In other words, is the SNP inherited together with something interesting? This could point towards selection
Conclusions: ADHD diagnosis risk alleles impact on functional outcomes in two generations (mother and child) and likely have intergenerational environmental effects.
So, ADHD is frequently heredity based on certain genes?
Why oh why oh whyyyyyyyy must academics write like this still?? (I know the answer, doesn't stop me from complaining)
So, ADHD is frequently heredity based on certain genes?
Why oh why oh whyyyyyyyy must academics write like this still?? (I know the answer, doesn't stop me from complaining)
Because that's not what that sentence means.
Jargon in academia is definitely overused, but in this case the terminology they're using has specific meanings, that this is meant to communicate to people within the field, that are lost or obscured when you attempt to simplify them.
Jargon in academia is definitely overused, but in this case the terminology they're using has specific meanings, that this is meant to communicate to people within the field, that are lost or obscured when you attempt to simplify them.
So what does it mean? If GP's interpretation is incorrect then I'm also baffled. And I'd really like to know because I have ADHD...
I think it means it takes two generations for alleles related to ADHD to have an effect, and then they also have intergenerational side effects.
They found a correlation between ADHD and low IQ/test scores.
I had shitty marks in HS too, didn't go to college and am highly successful
I had shitty marks in HS too, didn't go to college and am highly successful
As someone with ADHD who had shitty marks in HS, is probably going to drop out of college, and wants to be successful -- can you give any insight on how you got where you are?
Brush up on your social skills, hacking computers are nowhere near as valuable as hacking people.
Be CEO of something, dress sharp, get fit. How you look, act, and dress is your UI most hackers have a really shitty UI. Get a good logo, great cards and a good website / brochures. Pay others to make these things, use fivver, put everything out to bid, some people are really cheap, don't be afraid to hire people undercharging for their services. Tip them so you get prioritized.
Sell something repeatable, anything you can pay someone else to do, pay them. Get a lawyer, a good accountant, create your own contracts, run any serious changes by them.
Make sure you have quotes from your subcontractors, double it. Triple it. 10x it. Charge that to your clients. The more you charge the better you are.
Basically be the fucking man. Don't apologize for it.
Read everything by Robert Cialdini. It's a hacking guide to the masses. Read how to win friends and influence people it's a guide to hacking individuals.
Realize everyone is winging it and actors are doctors when they wear lab coats, lawyers when they wear suits and bikers when they wear leather. It's not hard to pass for anything wearing the right clothes.
Don't be afraid to bill $500 for something you paid $24 for. Never tell people how much something cost you or where you sourced it from.
Be really nice and highly complimentary to people.
Be CEO of something, dress sharp, get fit. How you look, act, and dress is your UI most hackers have a really shitty UI. Get a good logo, great cards and a good website / brochures. Pay others to make these things, use fivver, put everything out to bid, some people are really cheap, don't be afraid to hire people undercharging for their services. Tip them so you get prioritized.
Sell something repeatable, anything you can pay someone else to do, pay them. Get a lawyer, a good accountant, create your own contracts, run any serious changes by them.
Make sure you have quotes from your subcontractors, double it. Triple it. 10x it. Charge that to your clients. The more you charge the better you are.
Basically be the fucking man. Don't apologize for it.
Read everything by Robert Cialdini. It's a hacking guide to the masses. Read how to win friends and influence people it's a guide to hacking individuals.
Realize everyone is winging it and actors are doctors when they wear lab coats, lawyers when they wear suits and bikers when they wear leather. It's not hard to pass for anything wearing the right clothes.
Don't be afraid to bill $500 for something you paid $24 for. Never tell people how much something cost you or where you sourced it from.
Be really nice and highly complimentary to people.
Appreciated.
I had passed off Cialdini's books for dirty salesman tactics, but I'll get to it now.
I had passed off Cialdini's books for dirty salesman tactics, but I'll get to it now.
Thinking of successful people as dirty is the first thing to get out of your head. Don't be a hater. I did for years it got me nowhere.
A pretty much universally reviled dirty salesman is the President of the United States and most of the people who hate him are not.
Cialdini was also Obamas Comms guy so people you might like also use him.
The question is do you want to not use cialdinis tactics or do you want to be President, both are honorable choices.
Many people who don't want to use his tactics will be your employees.
Also read / listen to Thomas Sowells basic economics and understand the short and long term debt cycle.
A pretty much universally reviled dirty salesman is the President of the United States and most of the people who hate him are not.
Cialdini was also Obamas Comms guy so people you might like also use him.
The question is do you want to not use cialdinis tactics or do you want to be President, both are honorable choices.
Many people who don't want to use his tactics will be your employees.
Also read / listen to Thomas Sowells basic economics and understand the short and long term debt cycle.
I understand.
I've picked up all the books you recommended and I'll get through them tomorrow.
Is business at that level all about working people?
I've picked up all the books you recommended and I'll get through them tomorrow.
Is business at that level all about working people?
Yes and no, it's about understanding their needs and providing a solution while also charging enough to pay for everything and future expansion. Also at the same time you need to cut costs to deliver efficient solutions in the future.
If you price everything based on living in a dorm, underpaying yourself, etc your business would fail.
If I didn't charge $500 for something with $24 in direct costs I wouldn't have time to meet with clients, go to networking events, pay for my time for all these things, pay for insurance, pay for nice clothes, pay my trainer, etc, etc, etc.
Initially it's best to think of things as massively over charging because it's way too complicated to actually figure out what things are really costing you. Plan for future expansion, etc.
But yes at a higher level people are going to try to get you to undercut yourself, if you give into the idea that you are over charging you'll end up being taken advantage of. So initially you need to be very strong in your boundaries until you have full time staff to do a proper analysis.
If you roll up in a Mercedes and a nice suit people take you much more seriously than in a beat up Toyota and some rags, you'll also project more confidence, people are buying you, not your product.
Also with all this stuff learn body language, slow down how fast you talk, slow down how you walk, do everything as if it's just a sure thing that's going to happen
If you price everything based on living in a dorm, underpaying yourself, etc your business would fail.
If I didn't charge $500 for something with $24 in direct costs I wouldn't have time to meet with clients, go to networking events, pay for my time for all these things, pay for insurance, pay for nice clothes, pay my trainer, etc, etc, etc.
Initially it's best to think of things as massively over charging because it's way too complicated to actually figure out what things are really costing you. Plan for future expansion, etc.
But yes at a higher level people are going to try to get you to undercut yourself, if you give into the idea that you are over charging you'll end up being taken advantage of. So initially you need to be very strong in your boundaries until you have full time staff to do a proper analysis.
If you roll up in a Mercedes and a nice suit people take you much more seriously than in a beat up Toyota and some rags, you'll also project more confidence, people are buying you, not your product.
Also with all this stuff learn body language, slow down how fast you talk, slow down how you walk, do everything as if it's just a sure thing that's going to happen
I'll implement this advice.
I've picked up The Silent Language of Leaders and What Every Body is Saying for body language, and another for persuasion: The Like Switch.
Would you recommend learning how to shake hands/assert dominance like Trump, or is that something that might start being fazed out?
Also, when you get "fuck you money," will toning down on the theatrics hurt you in a major way, even if you've already shown you can be a BSD and preform?
I've picked up The Silent Language of Leaders and What Every Body is Saying for body language, and another for persuasion: The Like Switch.
Would you recommend learning how to shake hands/assert dominance like Trump, or is that something that might start being fazed out?
Also, when you get "fuck you money," will toning down on the theatrics hurt you in a major way, even if you've already shown you can be a BSD and preform?
Dominance isn't being phased out, it goes back to the great apes.
I dunno, I think if anything fuck you money will make me up the antics
I dunno, I think if anything fuck you money will make me up the antics
[deleted]
This is awesome advice!
Most of these people do fairly well in life. Their skills are extremely valuable and prized. They also almost always (95-99%) did not do very well in school. There are a couple of explanations:
1. Studies like these simply track educational achievements, which do not necessarily correlate with success in life.
2. I only ever see/meet the success stories, each of which there is a much larger amount of failures for.
3. There are multiple conditions that are all erroneously grouped under the moniker of ADHD. Most, if not all, of the successful ADHD people I know lean more towards the inattentive side of things.
4. Some combination of the above theories.