New Zealand Will Give You a Free Trip If You Agree to a Job Interview(time.com)
time.com
New Zealand Will Give You a Free Trip If You Agree to a Job Interview
http://time.com/money/4686430/new-zealand-jobs/
200 comments
Fronde*
I don't know what Frondie is, and it's weird to see those companies mentioned on HN. Yes, they're all terrible body-shops to work for and they outsource a lot of work.
I don't know what Frondie is, and it's weird to see those companies mentioned on HN. Yes, they're all terrible body-shops to work for and they outsource a lot of work.
> Oh and Wellington is the windiest city in the world. This is not an exaggeration
Seriously. I agree that it's a beautiful city in so many ways, but just spending a week there made me wonder if I would want to live in such a windy place.
Seriously. I agree that it's a beautiful city in so many ways, but just spending a week there made me wonder if I would want to live in such a windy place.
I lived in Auckland; aren't the winters worse in Wellington? Part of the reason I moved back(other than low wages and crazy housing prices) was to get away from those Auckland winters. Lucky for me I moved to CA right when they got over their drought... Yay.
New Zealand is really nice though. Laid back, safe(accept CBD on drinking nights), clean, etc.
New Zealand is really nice though. Laid back, safe(accept CBD on drinking nights), clean, etc.
"Part of the reason I moved back ... was to get away from those Auckland winters"
Wow, if you think Auckland winters are bad, you must not have experienced a real winter in the northern hemisphere!
There's far colder (and darker, and wetter) winters in much of North America and Europe.
As for New Zealand (and I'm saying this as a Kiwi), it's an amazing place for the lifestyle. Not necessarily an amazing place for career opportunities, though.
Wow, if you think Auckland winters are bad, you must not have experienced a real winter in the northern hemisphere!
There's far colder (and darker, and wetter) winters in much of North America and Europe.
As for New Zealand (and I'm saying this as a Kiwi), it's an amazing place for the lifestyle. Not necessarily an amazing place for career opportunities, though.
It was the rain and the humidity. Auckland seems to get more rain than much of the north island in the winter. Coupled with very few living situations having central heating and poor insulation; it can really wear on you. Hamilton was becoming very appealing from a weather and cost of living standpoint(it's also just nice down there too).
Constant weather is a bummer, but the cold and snow doesn't really bother me. As long as I can control the environment of my home without going broke from space heaters and dehumidifiers.
I have a very nuanced opinion of the life style :)I do miss the road trips and coffee. You're right about the opportunities; I may end up back in NZ some day when that's less of a concern.
Constant weather is a bummer, but the cold and snow doesn't really bother me. As long as I can control the environment of my home without going broke from space heaters and dehumidifiers.
I have a very nuanced opinion of the life style :)I do miss the road trips and coffee. You're right about the opportunities; I may end up back in NZ some day when that's less of a concern.
> Constant weather is a bummer, but the cold and snow doesn't really bother me.
I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, but it doesn't snow in Auckland.
I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, but it doesn't snow in Auckland.
I've lived here in Auckland since 2010, being originally from the north of England. I am yet to see a 'winter' in Auckland. Every year it gets a bit more rainy in the winter months and the temperature drops to around 3 or 4C at night...that's it, it's still in double digits in the daytime. Although I am coming from a place where it rained all year and had snowy -10C winters. I remember not long after I arrived in NZ there was one freak weather day where there was sleet in the city for about 60 seconds and everyone lost their minds as it hadn't snowed in 50 years or something.....those who had never left the city were experiencing snow for the first time....it baffled me how much of a big deal it was.
I haven't worn a coat for the past year and I've downgraded to one pair of jeans as I'm always in shorts and jandals. This place really is part of the 'winterless-north'.
I meant generally, in regards to the comment about places in the US having colder/wetter winters.
Perhaps they mean they wanted a more traditional winter than what Auckland offers?
I grew up there (and Christchurch) and remember being excited when their was a frost - it was the closest to snow we ever got.
It's an amazing place for sure but everytime I look at moving back to NZ I just get depressed about housing costs.
I grew up there (and Christchurch) and remember being excited when their was a frost - it was the closest to snow we ever got.
It's an amazing place for sure but everytime I look at moving back to NZ I just get depressed about housing costs.
> everytime I look at moving back to NZ I just get depressed about housing costs.
How does it compare to bay area housing costs?
How does it compare to bay area housing costs?
Probably comparable. I'm in Minnesota though where the cost of living is low but IT wages are relatively high.
As a New Zealander, I can't afford a home in Auckland. I have 0 desire to ever move back to NZ.
If you can't afford a home in Auckland, you can't afford one in the bay area either.
Christchurch winters are rough because it is pretty humid there and most people don't have central heating. It isn't so cold temperature wise but It feels more cold in general than other places I have lived in The Rockies.
I live in Minnesota now. My wife was born and raised here but has spent a couple of winters in Christchurch. She has always maintained that a winter in Christchurch is worse in some ways that one in Minnesota because of how damp the cold is.
Of course winter is a shorter duration in Christchurch!
Of course winter is a shorter duration in Christchurch!
Auckland "winters" haha, try a Dunedin winter buddy
Winters are worse in Wellington. My sister puts bricks around plants in her relatively sheltered garden to keep the plants in the ground. On unusually windy days the bricks are blown into the house.
Occasionally she stays late at work because it's too windy to walk down the street, and I've noticed wind guard shield thingys at intersections to protect people from getting blown into the street.
What is CBD?
Central Business District.
It's what Aussies (like myself) and Kiwis call "downtown", or the city-centre.
It's what Aussies (like myself) and Kiwis call "downtown", or the city-centre.
"CBD" is used in some Asian and Middle-Eastern countries too. But I've never seen it used in Europe or the Americas.
I've heard the term used in London as well. But never in the US. I first ran across it when I lived in Australia, so I wonder if it's a British term.
I've heard it used in wonky circles, and if you pronounce the whole thing instead of the acronym people know what you mean.
New York City is unusual for having two different CBDs, with midtown being denser than downtown (but each are denser than anywhere else in the US).
Houston uses it occasionally. Probably picked it up from all the oil expats in town.
Central Business District (aka "downtown")
CBD is the Central Business District. Basically the city center, which is also where all the businesses are.
"Everything is contracted out to Datacom, Catalyst, Frondie, Solnet, etc. etc."
It's true that there's a big services sector, especially around government work. But there's also a lively startup/R&D scene. I worked 4 years for Mindscape (a dev tools startup, later to become Raygun), and then moved to GreenButton (HPC in the cloud, later acquired by Microsoft; the R&D team is still based in Wellington). Xero is a thriving, lively product company, although now large and mature; same with TradeMe. Weta Digital has a lot of in-house tech. And there are companies like 8i, just kicking off doing amazing things in motion capture and rendering.
So what you're saying is fair for "IT services" tech - if you want to do that, then yeah, Datacom is it. But there's so much more to the Wellington tech scene than IT services.
It's true that there's a big services sector, especially around government work. But there's also a lively startup/R&D scene. I worked 4 years for Mindscape (a dev tools startup, later to become Raygun), and then moved to GreenButton (HPC in the cloud, later acquired by Microsoft; the R&D team is still based in Wellington). Xero is a thriving, lively product company, although now large and mature; same with TradeMe. Weta Digital has a lot of in-house tech. And there are companies like 8i, just kicking off doing amazing things in motion capture and rendering.
So what you're saying is fair for "IT services" tech - if you want to do that, then yeah, Datacom is it. But there's so much more to the Wellington tech scene than IT services.
Direct link to the actual program: http://www.wellingtonnz.com/work/looksee-wellington/
One downside - you have to be able-bodied. NZ will not allow people with disabilities the opportunity to relocate there.
Do you have a citation for this?
There have been a couple of high-profile cases of this. A prestigious mathematician had lived in New Zealand for four years, but his autistic son was declined residency, so he and his family left: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/16/prestigious-ac...
A woman in a wheelchair was declined residency due to her paralysis, despite working and having family in New Zealand: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...
A woman in a wheelchair was declined residency due to her paralysis, despite working and having family in New Zealand: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...
New Zealand and Australia are well known for having point systems for migrants. They highly favor young, english-speaking, able-bodied, highly-educated people.
https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...
https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-...
Or if you have money, you get all the points.
awesome to know since thats one of my primary goals
[deleted]
Able-bodied and young. "You’ll need to be 55 or under when you apply."[0]
[0] https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/options/wo...
[0] https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/options/wo...
I don't mean to be uncouth, but if you are 55 and not retired yet, you are going to have serious employment issues in software industry.
Again, I am not prejudiced or anything. This is just a fact that I have accepted.
Edit: are you downvoting my comment because you think this is bad practice (which I agree to) OR are you saying my view of the reality is wrong?
Again, I am not prejudiced or anything. This is just a fact that I have accepted.
Edit: are you downvoting my comment because you think this is bad practice (which I agree to) OR are you saying my view of the reality is wrong?
Rob Pike, architect and still active maintainer of Golang, was born in 1956:
1. staying healthy
2. finding inspiration in your work
3. finding an employer that values the strengths and accommodates the limitation of older brains.
Grey of hair, ye need not despair.
https://github.com/golang/go/issues/assigned/robpike
1. staying healthy
2. finding inspiration in your work
3. finding an employer that values the strengths and accommodates the limitation of older brains.
Grey of hair, ye need not despair.
[deleted]
Such people are called "exceptions" or exceptional
To the unjustly downvoted: Consider the possibilities of writing in esoteric rather than exoteric style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
I think I understand the difference between esoteric (my opinion) and exoteric (this is what I think the world is). What is the difference in writing style dictated by the two different types of claims, though?
Neither reading that wiki page nor quick googling helped me find examples of the two different styles.
Neither reading that wiki page nor quick googling helped me find examples of the two different styles.
>I don't mean to be uncouth, but if you are 55 and not retired yet, you are going to have serious employment issues in software industry....
as defined by Silicon Valley. There are plenty of roles outside of SV for the gray hairs.
as defined by Silicon Valley. There are plenty of roles outside of SV for the gray hairs.
Not just the valley but in any of the developing nations like India, China, Brazil either. Those populations have a constant stream of educated youth rolling in. It is very hard to compete with youth (not on knowledge but on the aspect of how much work hours you can dedicate at that point in life). But I am happy to hear there are places that respect > 55 year olds. Note that the population of > 55 in software is probably quite small now because this all started only in 1990s proper. So, we will see the real problem only 2020 or so.
55 here. Not a problem.
Perhaps I would come out of retirement if I could move to New Zealand.
If true, that would be to the detriment of our industry. The systems produced by that generation were typically simpler and more reliable than what we have now.
Why the downvoting?
*None love the bearer of bad news* --SophoclesBecause it just ain't true?
Age discrimination exists, but it's not really the reason there are so few 55 year olds in software today. That's simply because very very few people in the 1980s took up a career in software. The industry was orders of magnitude smaller!
I've worked in multiple places that had absolutely zero problem hiring people in their 50s - when we were lucky enough to find people that experienced.
Age discrimination exists, but it's not really the reason there are so few 55 year olds in software today. That's simply because very very few people in the 1980s took up a career in software. The industry was orders of magnitude smaller!
I've worked in multiple places that had absolutely zero problem hiring people in their 50s - when we were lucky enough to find people that experienced.
>I don't mean to be uncouth, but if you are 55 and not retired yet, you are going to have serious employment issues in software industry.
I've only seen this occur to people who failed to keep their skills up to date and failed to keep growing their abilities commensurate to their number of years of experience. Demand is still tremendous for people who are experienced and competent.
I've only seen this occur to people who failed to keep their skills up to date and failed to keep growing their abilities commensurate to their number of years of experience. Demand is still tremendous for people who are experienced and competent.
Boo, that's pretty horrible. Lots of disabled people are able and willing to work around their disability.
Yeah but the government doesn't want to be responsible for covering their medical bills.
If they're productive then that shouldn't be a problem. Discrimination based on disability is unethical.
It's quite possible many disabled people will have more medical costs than they pay in taxes. It's reasonable for them to at least be cautious letting them in.
It's unethical to discriminate against your own citizens. They have zero obligation to provide entrance or any service to foreigners. No one has a natural right to enter New Zealand, especially if they aren't providing value to that country.
That's one of the sad costs of public safety nets though. You need to control immigration to keep out people who would take advantage of it. Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.
It's unethical to discriminate against your own citizens. They have zero obligation to provide entrance or any service to foreigners. No one has a natural right to enter New Zealand, especially if they aren't providing value to that country.
That's one of the sad costs of public safety nets though. You need to control immigration to keep out people who would take advantage of it. Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.
I mean if it is a disabled kid and they are supported by their parents who arrive on a high tech skilled worker visa then they should get residency.
I imagine this is one of the downsides of having publicly-funded healthcare. While it sucks (I have a child with a disability so we would probably be denied residency), I can't say I blame them for not wanting to take on the financial burden.
Yep, the reality about social safety nets is you have to have an adult in charge of the accounting for it to be sustainable.
Honestly, my only remaining fear in moving to NZ would be going from unmetered internet in the US to strictly metered internet in NZ. Would I be able to cope with a data cap?!
It could be a reality show. Have your people call my people!
It could be a reality show. Have your people call my people!
This happened to me going from the UK -> Canada. Blew through my cap in one day and called them because I was sure there was a mistake. They reset it and I blew through it again within 24 hours. To be fair, I was only there for 6 months so the short term contract packages available to me where rubbish but still - it was a long 6 months filled with plenty of penalty payments.
At least NZ has fibre. Unlike the western island (Australia, aka the mainland ;) ) which has an absolute shitshow for Internet connectivity.
I live an hour north of Sydney and I have fibre to my house. (But I acknowledge I am one of a lucky minority - part of my reasons for choosing this suburb was the fibre.)
You sure are. My parents are well inside Sydney's suburban sea and are stuck on 3mbit ADSL2+ due to exchange distance.
New Zealand's national fibre plan is brilliant. If only Australia could come up with such ideas...
New Zealand's national fibre plan is brilliant. If only Australia could come up with such ideas...
> New Zealand's national fibre plan is brilliant
I live 8km from Auckland CBD and haven't got fibre or an install date. Lines crap out when it rains. Every fibre install I have seen (and I keep an eye out for them) is terrible. Through driveway expansion joints, along fences etc. My view is quite the opposite on how good the roll out has been.
I live 8km from Auckland CBD and haven't got fibre or an install date. Lines crap out when it rains. Every fibre install I have seen (and I keep an eye out for them) is terrible. Through driveway expansion joints, along fences etc. My view is quite the opposite on how good the roll out has been.
Things have changed in the last few months, it's all unmetered now. eg, here's my ISP https://voyager.nz/home and for $69 a month I can get fibre unthrottled with no data limits.
This is not an issue at all anymore. Fibre coverage is very good, and almost all ISPs offer an unlimited plan. I pay $130NZD a month for unlimited 1gbps down / .5gbps up.
There are plenty that are unmetered. I've had unlimited for over a decade. Speed is an issue if you don't have fibre.
Unmetered gigabit internet is widely available over both fibre and cable. It's not particularly cheap (equiv of $80 USD+tax) but it's there.
> It could be a reality show. Have your people call my people!
Mitchell and Webb had a sketch about a reality show that asked a couple to live in an early 1990s house for a while. There's a bit about the Internet in it.
At one point they discover that there's ice cream in the freezer... but it's Neapolitan. One of the couple starts sobbing.
Mitchell and Webb had a sketch about a reality show that asked a couple to live in an early 1990s house for a while. There's a bit about the Internet in it.
At one point they discover that there's ice cream in the freezer... but it's Neapolitan. One of the couple starts sobbing.
According to this article you apply and they will select a 100 people from the pool. How is this different than a normal interview except the flight is a little longer.
I think they pay for week's worth of accommodation. That's already different than most interviews.
Plus the flight is very expensive
The flight price is trivial compared with the 48 hours travel time plus jetlag.
(Source: doing the return trip right now)
(Source: doing the return trip right now)
People used to need weeks to travel across an ocean, toughen up.
Just because something else was more shit doesn't make it any less shit.
I really need to toughen up! I'm not on a boat or a plane right now.
Lol, most of us produce more value in an hour than those people produced in a week. It's not about being tough. It's about being worth two orders of magnitude more.
Because it sounds like a hiring fair and not a specific company that might want to hire you. And you get voted on as being a good candidate and not a specific company being interested in hiring you.
I'm very seriously thinking about relocating there with my family (we're in France). We're actually going there next week to visit the country and do a reality check about our expectations.
For those who made the move - how was your experience ? IT scene ? Machine Learning related stuff anyone ?
For those who made the move - how was your experience ? IT scene ? Machine Learning related stuff anyone ?
I lived there for a year. My wife is a kiwi so we visit from time to time. Lovely people, scenery, and weather. You need to be near a major hub. Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch. Outside of that is mostly very rural and has little opportunity. Things are expensive. Rent is very expensive in the hubs. Almost to the point of crisis in Auckland. I worked remotely for a company in the US while I was there so I didn't get too good a sense for the tech scene but it exists. I attended a jsconf while there and about 100 attended. From what I heard, the wages aren't as high. The biggest company in NZ is a dairy company. I wouldn't recommend starting a business there. The labor laws are out of control. I was in Christchurch. Nice place but it is still recovering from the big earthquake a few years ago. There are still dozens of small tremors happening every day. I started to lose faith in the ground while living there which is a weird feeling. Utilities are so expensive that most people use woodburners to heat their homes. It was a great experience and we'll be going back some time. If you do it, try and get a remote job for an outside company and prepare to tighten your belt straps a bit. If you are into hiking and camping in your free time, there may be no better place on earth. The scenery is diverse and truly stunning.
>The labor laws are out of control.
Depends who you're talking to and their perspective. To an American, it seems like France. To someone from France (ie who you were replying to), it would seem like America.
Depends who you're talking to and their perspective. To an American, it seems like France. To someone from France (ie who you were replying to), it would seem like America.
Good point
> The labor laws are out of control
There are two sides to this. The advert is for a job, and as an employee you're relatively protected against bad employers. Not protected enough in my view, but for those from other political environments it might seem rather alien. Given that most are employees and not employers it's a perspective worth considering.
There are two sides to this. The advert is for a job, and as an employee you're relatively protected against bad employers. Not protected enough in my view, but for those from other political environments it might seem rather alien. Given that most are employees and not employers it's a perspective worth considering.
I was speaking from the perspective of a bootstrapped startup founder. As I understood it, it can be quite hard to legally fire someone. This could easily be the end of an early stage company. Take my advice on this with a grain of salt as this was just what I heard from talking to people. I never hired anyone while I was there.
> I wouldn't recommend starting a business there.
Ease of Doing Business Index:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&...
NZ is top of the list.
Ease of Doing Business Index:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.EASE.XQ?view=map&...
NZ is top of the list.
Go for it!
Actually, I am. Currently in Australia, moving back to NZ (where I am from) in a month or so and will take my business with me.
Specifically what I understood about NZ labor law is that you can't easily fire someone that isn't working out for whatever reason. You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause. While this can be nice for an employee. An early stage company can easily get sunk by this. Again, this is just what I understood from talking to others but it was enough to make me nervous about doing any hiring there. It certainly can and does work for people regardless. Good luck with your venture.
You have to have a history of documentation and written warnings to validate the cause.
The UK is the same. Actually, most civilized countries have similar laws. You can't sack people at will (something I personally believe to be a terrible practice) and you have to have a good reason to do so. Never had a problem firing people that had to be fired. Just keep records, do things by the book. It isn't as onerous as it sounds. Send some emails, send some letters, most of the times nothing will be a surprise for anybody anyway.
The UK is the same. Actually, most civilized countries have similar laws. You can't sack people at will (something I personally believe to be a terrible practice) and you have to have a good reason to do so. Never had a problem firing people that had to be fired. Just keep records, do things by the book. It isn't as onerous as it sounds. Send some emails, send some letters, most of the times nothing will be a surprise for anybody anyway.
I certainly believe in giving people multiple chances but I'm not interested in involving the gov't in these sorts of decisions. Guess I'm uncivilized.
That is a rather simplistic and incorrect view. The Government isn't involved directly, other then the fact that they make some rules about how you have to treat staff. These rules tend to be balanced so as to limit risks for both parties.
Not being able to legally fire an employee that isn't working out can put a lethal amount of stress on a new company. New Zealand can do whatever they like but this can deter new businesses from operating there. Which is fine but is worth knowing about before you do so. That is all I'm saying.
Not being able to legally fire an employee that isn't working out can put a lethal amount of stress on a new company.
I don't know where you get the idea that you cannot legally fire an employee. You can fire employees, and I have fired a fair share myself. You just have to do it correctly.
I don't know where you get the idea that you cannot legally fire an employee. You can fire employees, and I have fired a fair share myself. You just have to do it correctly.
Thanks.
As far as letting go of employees that aren't working out, NZ industrial relations legislation does include provision for a trial period that can be included in an employment contract. This trial period can be up to 90 days.
https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-pro...
As far as letting go of employees that aren't working out, NZ industrial relations legislation does include provision for a trial period that can be included in an employment contract. This trial period can be up to 90 days.
https://employment.govt.nz/starting-employment/trial-and-pro...
My wife and I moved to NZ (from Russia) 2+ years ago.
I work in IT (Software Developer). We live in Auckland.
My impressions are:
PROS: - very beautiful country. Really, nature here is amazing!
- people are very friendly
- everything is quite simple and small, people know each other. It is more like a village, not a City
- climate is fine (in Auckland). Humidity is high - that is why it feels hot in summer and cold in winter
- no earthquakes (Auckland)
- very safe country
- coffee and beer and foods are amazing!
- it is clean
- lack of stress, slow pace of life
CONS:
- NZ is unreasonably expensive country to live in
- you can't really make money here. All salaries are pretty much the same. You'll get enough for living, but not much more.
- job market is small and weird (hence, limited career opportunities)
- rent is very high. You'll spend 40-60% of your salary on a rent.
- house prices are unreasonably high. It will be very difficult to buy a good house/apartment here
- quality of houses/apartments is very bad. They are tiny, old, ugly. Well, there are some nice houses, but they are far from CBD
- it is far far away from the rest of the world, hence it is expensive to travel from NZ to other countries
- it is boring here. Nothing is going on. About 4-5 good concerts/exhibitions/shows per year and that's it. The only ways to entertain yourself are: food (pubs, cafes, restaurants etc. But choice is very limited) and nature (hiking, camping, surfing, caving etc.)
- almost all cafes and shops close at 4-6pm. Yes, not many places to go after work.
- if you (or your wife) like shopping, then you'll be disappointed. Again, choice is very limited, quality is quite low, prices are unreasonably high.
- IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing
- companies don't hire you for your skills. They don't usually ask any technical question during interviews. Most probably they will just check if you are kind, polite, if you smile, if you can sell yourself
- employers here often require mythical 'New Zealand Experience'. Which means that if you've never worked in NZ, then it will be difficult for you to find your first job here (because you don't have NZ experience yet)
- people don't work hard here. They come to work slowly, relax, read news, drink coffee, work a little bit, then have lunch, then work a little bit again. When it's 5pm - they just go home.
- public transport is bad
Overall, NZ is a very very nice country, but it has some REALLY annoying and weird stuff. If you _don't_ really want to make a Career and Money, just want to relax, want to have no stress and anxiety, if you enjoy nature, then it would be great for you.
If you are more a 'city guy', who wants things to happen all the time around, who wants to make a career, have opportunities, who wants to live in a big modern city, then honestly, I would recommend Australia (Melbourne/Sydney) over New Zealand.
My wife and I are planning to move to Australia in the future.
My impressions are:
PROS: - very beautiful country. Really, nature here is amazing!
- people are very friendly
- everything is quite simple and small, people know each other. It is more like a village, not a City
- climate is fine (in Auckland). Humidity is high - that is why it feels hot in summer and cold in winter
- no earthquakes (Auckland)
- very safe country
- coffee and beer and foods are amazing!
- it is clean
- lack of stress, slow pace of life
CONS:
- NZ is unreasonably expensive country to live in
- you can't really make money here. All salaries are pretty much the same. You'll get enough for living, but not much more.
- job market is small and weird (hence, limited career opportunities)
- rent is very high. You'll spend 40-60% of your salary on a rent.
- house prices are unreasonably high. It will be very difficult to buy a good house/apartment here
- quality of houses/apartments is very bad. They are tiny, old, ugly. Well, there are some nice houses, but they are far from CBD
- it is far far away from the rest of the world, hence it is expensive to travel from NZ to other countries
- it is boring here. Nothing is going on. About 4-5 good concerts/exhibitions/shows per year and that's it. The only ways to entertain yourself are: food (pubs, cafes, restaurants etc. But choice is very limited) and nature (hiking, camping, surfing, caving etc.)
- almost all cafes and shops close at 4-6pm. Yes, not many places to go after work.
- if you (or your wife) like shopping, then you'll be disappointed. Again, choice is very limited, quality is quite low, prices are unreasonably high.
- IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing
- companies don't hire you for your skills. They don't usually ask any technical question during interviews. Most probably they will just check if you are kind, polite, if you smile, if you can sell yourself
- employers here often require mythical 'New Zealand Experience'. Which means that if you've never worked in NZ, then it will be difficult for you to find your first job here (because you don't have NZ experience yet)
- people don't work hard here. They come to work slowly, relax, read news, drink coffee, work a little bit, then have lunch, then work a little bit again. When it's 5pm - they just go home.
- public transport is bad
Overall, NZ is a very very nice country, but it has some REALLY annoying and weird stuff. If you _don't_ really want to make a Career and Money, just want to relax, want to have no stress and anxiety, if you enjoy nature, then it would be great for you.
If you are more a 'city guy', who wants things to happen all the time around, who wants to make a career, have opportunities, who wants to live in a big modern city, then honestly, I would recommend Australia (Melbourne/Sydney) over New Zealand.
My wife and I are planning to move to Australia in the future.
> - people don't work hard here. They come to work slowly, relax, read news, drink coffee, work a little bit, then have lunch, then work a little bit again. When it's 5pm - they just go home.
I disagree. I'm kiwi, and have lived in a few countries overseas (I still do) and think that New Zealanders are the hardest working people I've ever met. Compared to many Europeans, and even Americans, kiwi employees seem to actually deliver more in the allocated time, and go home. That work-life balance is awesome, and I don't think it's a negative. Our company constantly hires kiwis because, well, they seem to work better than anyone else.
I disagree. I'm kiwi, and have lived in a few countries overseas (I still do) and think that New Zealanders are the hardest working people I've ever met. Compared to many Europeans, and even Americans, kiwi employees seem to actually deliver more in the allocated time, and go home. That work-life balance is awesome, and I don't think it's a negative. Our company constantly hires kiwis because, well, they seem to work better than anyone else.
Are the all the Pros and Cons here coming from the perspective of living and working in Russia? I thought eg salaries there were very low.
- IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing
As a New Zealander, I found this quite jarring when I got out into industry as well. I just assumed it was because I was an outlier though. I thought it's probably fairly unusual for programmers in general to spend a lot of time on hacker news or technical IRC channels or trying out different programming languages. Again, where is this different? I'd love to go.
- IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing
As a New Zealander, I found this quite jarring when I got out into industry as well. I just assumed it was because I was an outlier though. I thought it's probably fairly unusual for programmers in general to spend a lot of time on hacker news or technical IRC channels or trying out different programming languages. Again, where is this different? I'd love to go.
> I thought eg salaries there were very low.
It depends. I'm talking more about salary/rent ratio. In Russia I was spending about 30% of my salary for rent (and apartment was big and new and nice). Here I spend about 40%. And apartment is tiny and bad (in comparison). Then, here I pay much more for broadband ($95, and it is much slower), more for a phone. And fuel is muuuch more expensive here.
> Again, where is this different? I'd love to go.
Back in Russia, in all companies I've worked at (not top-tier companies) the team was great: they knew a lot of stuff, we were discussing JVM internals during lunch breaks, talked about new things in IT etc. I miss that.
It depends. I'm talking more about salary/rent ratio. In Russia I was spending about 30% of my salary for rent (and apartment was big and new and nice). Here I spend about 40%. And apartment is tiny and bad (in comparison). Then, here I pay much more for broadband ($95, and it is much slower), more for a phone. And fuel is muuuch more expensive here.
> Again, where is this different? I'd love to go.
Back in Russia, in all companies I've worked at (not top-tier companies) the team was great: they knew a lot of stuff, we were discussing JVM internals during lunch breaks, talked about new things in IT etc. I miss that.
It depends. I'm talking more about salary/rent ratio. In Russia I was spending about 30% of my salary for rent (and apartment was big and new and nice). Here I spend about 40%. And apartment is tiny and bad (in comparison). Then, here I pay much more for broadband ($95, and it is much slower), more for a phone. And fuel is muuuch more expensive here.
I'm assuming that what you save in NZ is higher than what you save in Russia though - after feeding, clothing, housing and entertaining yourself.
Back in Russia, in all companies I've worked at (not top-tier companies) the team was great: they knew a lot of stuff, we were discussing JVM internals during lunch breaks, talked about new things in IT etc. I miss that.
That's really interesting. The only thing I really know that came out of Russia is Nginx, I didn't know that in general Russia had such a tech scene. Wonder if that's because English language proficiency isn't high.
I'm assuming that what you save in NZ is higher than what you save in Russia though - after feeding, clothing, housing and entertaining yourself.
Back in Russia, in all companies I've worked at (not top-tier companies) the team was great: they knew a lot of stuff, we were discussing JVM internals during lunch breaks, talked about new things in IT etc. I miss that.
That's really interesting. The only thing I really know that came out of Russia is Nginx, I didn't know that in general Russia had such a tech scene. Wonder if that's because English language proficiency isn't high.
The only thing I really know that came out of Russia is Nginx
Russian techies are among the best in the world, and the stuff they work on would surprise you. Companies like Luxoft write in-flight software for Boeing. Outsourcing to Russia and Eastern Europe is massive. If you have a seriously tough problem, get a Russian to fix it. Source: My late wife was Russian, and a software developer. Have worked almost exclusively with Russian developers for the past years. They do amazing stuff, with a fantastic attitude.
Russian techies are among the best in the world, and the stuff they work on would surprise you. Companies like Luxoft write in-flight software for Boeing. Outsourcing to Russia and Eastern Europe is massive. If you have a seriously tough problem, get a Russian to fix it. Source: My late wife was Russian, and a software developer. Have worked almost exclusively with Russian developers for the past years. They do amazing stuff, with a fantastic attitude.
> IT: it is just my opinion, but I would say that average IT specialist in NZ doesn't know much. I see a lot of IT people here who, for example, don't know how to use Git. Who never heard about Rust. Who never heard about LISP. Who have 8 years of Java experience, but don't know basic Java stuff. And so on. Honestly, this is quite disappointing
I think that depends on where you're working. It's definitely true in the general corporate/govt 'IT' scene, but working for startups / product companies (in Wellington at least) it is definitely not the case.
I think that depends on where you're working. It's definitely true in the general corporate/govt 'IT' scene, but working for startups / product companies (in Wellington at least) it is definitely not the case.
Thanks for a detailed reply !
I'm a bit surprised about the salary. I've seen than in IT it's pretty limited, but also that some other profession can make a very good living - my wife is a doctor and it looks like it's quite a good place to be for medical professionals.
Living costs, yes - that's something I expect. But coming from Paris, I don't think I will be shocked neither... Also, we already have 2 kids and will rather be looking at houses in the suburbs / outside of the main cities, so this should bring the costs down.
Again, thanks for great answer !
I'm a bit surprised about the salary. I've seen than in IT it's pretty limited, but also that some other profession can make a very good living - my wife is a doctor and it looks like it's quite a good place to be for medical professionals.
Living costs, yes - that's something I expect. But coming from Paris, I don't think I will be shocked neither... Also, we already have 2 kids and will rather be looking at houses in the suburbs / outside of the main cities, so this should bring the costs down.
Again, thanks for great answer !
"will rather be looking at houses in the suburbs / outside of the main cities, so this should bring the costs down."
No, it doesn't work like that. Have a look at some RE websites and Google Maps. Prices are insane, even in places where you can't reasonably commute to places where there are jobs for educated people. Only places where prices aren't insane is in places people only go to get away from other people. Look, I loved living in NZ in some aspects, but it's not a place for someone with ambition. Even kiwis with ambition leave, even if they don't want really want to.
No, it doesn't work like that. Have a look at some RE websites and Google Maps. Prices are insane, even in places where you can't reasonably commute to places where there are jobs for educated people. Only places where prices aren't insane is in places people only go to get away from other people. Look, I loved living in NZ in some aspects, but it's not a place for someone with ambition. Even kiwis with ambition leave, even if they don't want really want to.
This is something that bothers me indeed. My best case scenario is to create a company in the machine learning field there. The idea is not yet mature enough, so I'm giving myself time for now (we're planning to move in a year or two).
As for houses, I've checked and it sure looks expensive, but again - I'm living in Paris area where the prices are insane in my opinion. In the suburbs where I live, it's ~5000e/m2 - with almost 1h commute to work.
As for houses, I've checked and it sure looks expensive, but again - I'm living in Paris area where the prices are insane in my opinion. In the suburbs where I live, it's ~5000e/m2 - with almost 1h commute to work.
Well, you can come here, get residency, wait 2 years for a permanent residency or 5 years for a citizenship and then move to Australia. That is what most people with ambitions do here
First, let me make clear that I don't want to dissuade you from going to New Zealand. It's a lovely place, but many people in Europe have a (somewhat) wrong image of it. So I just want to make sure you know what you're getting in to.
Yes, compared with central Paris, prices aren't that insane. But if you want to bootstrap a company, you are looking for (one or more of):
- cheap COL - access to customers - access to staff
In NZ, you have none of those. You'll be much cheaper off living in northern France or somewhere else 'remote' and rural in France, or even the rest of Europe. You'll spend thousands a month renting somewhere that isn't even particularly nice (houses are of crap quality in general), money that you won't have when you're getting a business started.
There aren't many companies that need or are willing to pay for cutting edge software. Sure, you can sell to anywhere in the world through the internet nowadays, but then why would you live hours flying away from your customers, on (relatively) crappy internet lines, many timezones away?
Most Kiwis worth hiring have moved to Oz. That is not to say that all Kiwis left are idiots, of course, but in general they won't be the sort of high-flying, go-getter people you'll want in the initial stages of your company. And those that are left will be hard to find or to convince joining you. It will be easier to convince young people looking for adventure coming from abroad to join you, but they'll be gone just as easily, too (I've seen it happen several times).
NZ is a great place to live if you want to have an outdoorsy-oriented, good work/life balanced lifestyle, while still being in an English-speaking, originally Europe (British) oriented country. Your friends and family will love saying how they will come visit you and then won't once they realize how far away it actually is (exaggerating only slightly here). Until the 1970's, NZ was a very insular, inward-facing, closed economy, of which the effects are still felt today. People like to live very spread out, which makes 4mm people responsible for maintaining infrastructure in an area bigger than the UK. It's true that the majority lives in a few cities, but that also makes those cities expensive.
May I suggest you go live there for a few months first before you move - and treat it as 'living' there, not 'holiday'. So living in the same place, daily rhythm of Mon-Fri 9-5 and doing laundry on the weekends, not being able to go anywhere without a car (this is the number one thing my daughter complained about, although she was only 4 at the time).
Good luck. If you take the plunge, I'm sure you'll have a great time and it'll be a great adventure, but your chances of being the traditional definition of 'successful' will not improve with going there (nothing wrong with that, of course - everybody has to define for themselves what constitutes 'successful').
Yes, compared with central Paris, prices aren't that insane. But if you want to bootstrap a company, you are looking for (one or more of):
- cheap COL - access to customers - access to staff
In NZ, you have none of those. You'll be much cheaper off living in northern France or somewhere else 'remote' and rural in France, or even the rest of Europe. You'll spend thousands a month renting somewhere that isn't even particularly nice (houses are of crap quality in general), money that you won't have when you're getting a business started.
There aren't many companies that need or are willing to pay for cutting edge software. Sure, you can sell to anywhere in the world through the internet nowadays, but then why would you live hours flying away from your customers, on (relatively) crappy internet lines, many timezones away?
Most Kiwis worth hiring have moved to Oz. That is not to say that all Kiwis left are idiots, of course, but in general they won't be the sort of high-flying, go-getter people you'll want in the initial stages of your company. And those that are left will be hard to find or to convince joining you. It will be easier to convince young people looking for adventure coming from abroad to join you, but they'll be gone just as easily, too (I've seen it happen several times).
NZ is a great place to live if you want to have an outdoorsy-oriented, good work/life balanced lifestyle, while still being in an English-speaking, originally Europe (British) oriented country. Your friends and family will love saying how they will come visit you and then won't once they realize how far away it actually is (exaggerating only slightly here). Until the 1970's, NZ was a very insular, inward-facing, closed economy, of which the effects are still felt today. People like to live very spread out, which makes 4mm people responsible for maintaining infrastructure in an area bigger than the UK. It's true that the majority lives in a few cities, but that also makes those cities expensive.
May I suggest you go live there for a few months first before you move - and treat it as 'living' there, not 'holiday'. So living in the same place, daily rhythm of Mon-Fri 9-5 and doing laundry on the weekends, not being able to go anywhere without a car (this is the number one thing my daughter complained about, although she was only 4 at the time).
Good luck. If you take the plunge, I'm sure you'll have a great time and it'll be a great adventure, but your chances of being the traditional definition of 'successful' will not improve with going there (nothing wrong with that, of course - everybody has to define for themselves what constitutes 'successful').
Thing is, we decided that we will choose the next country according to my wife job (doctor) and lifestyle - nature etc. So based on this, New Zealand seems like the perfect place. I'm well aware that it's not the best career choice I can make to say the least, but I don't consider the points you've made like blocking issues. Things will be harder for sure, but far from impossible.
I may be wrong, but money shouldn't be that much of issue based on what I've heard / read - it seems like doctors are making plenty of money there (as opposed to France, where they are very underpaid, compared to cost of living). Does this sound plausible to live on one income only (family with two kids) ?
We are actually going there next week for 15 days, to see how life is. We're only doing the northern island since it's most probably were we would like to live (and we will have plenty of time to visit the southern one once there). 15 days is short, but I hope we will get a fair idea about the country.
Thank you all guys for the opinions !
I may be wrong, but money shouldn't be that much of issue based on what I've heard / read - it seems like doctors are making plenty of money there (as opposed to France, where they are very underpaid, compared to cost of living). Does this sound plausible to live on one income only (family with two kids) ?
We are actually going there next week for 15 days, to see how life is. We're only doing the northern island since it's most probably were we would like to live (and we will have plenty of time to visit the southern one once there). 15 days is short, but I hope we will get a fair idea about the country.
Thank you all guys for the opinions !
Yes, doctors get very good money here. But google it, most probably your wife will have to pass exams or something to prove her qualification and work here as a doctor.
And NZ is a wonderful country for kids!
Also, french community is quite large here!
And NZ is a wonderful country for kids!
Also, french community is quite large here!
Actually it's rather easy for doctors with french diploma - just an exam to pass indeed. Rather easy process compared to other countries we considered (Canada, Australia)
Much of this is dead on, but some of it is completely wrong.
What's right: There's not much money to be made as an employee, and the further south you head, the worse it is. About 15 minutes south of Christchurch onwards, employers have this idea that they've hired you so you owe them. If you work in Dunedin, expect very low wages and a requirement for unpaid overtime from 25% of your ordinary hours upwards; my last fulltime job there was working 70 hours a week and then taking another 5-15 hours home, meaning I was paid illegally - $4/hour less than minimum wage.
Worker protections are collapsing, and discrimination against age and disabilities is rife. A friend of mine couldn't get a job because he was 46, and one particular company I applied to loved me until they learned I had a disability.
Employers were surveyed a couple of years ago (I can't find the article that reported it, I think it was on the New Zealand Herald website) and a good portion of them said that discrimination against the disabled was disgusting and should be punished, but they were willing to do it for their own businesses.
Anti-intellectualism is also quite strong here, and many emigrants from the country are exporting the attitude. One particular individual gave me hell for years, for bothering to get a CS degree. "Why bother? You can get corporate experience in your home!" He refused to get his head around the whole CS != IT thing. (I've recently discovered that he's gone to university to get himself a degree in design, quite the hypocrite.)
Housing is terrible, again the further south you go the worse it is, with the worst (oldest) in Dunedin. I rented a house down there that had no underfloor insulation, shredded paper as insulation in the roof space, with gaps around doors and windows I could fit fingers through. It was just two bedrooms, and you have to perform section maintenance (i.e. mow the lawns, trim the hedges) too. That's par for the course, and cost about 40% of our wages. If you want a warm and nicely insulated three bedroom house, you'd be looking at nearer to 60% of your income.
I heard of one research project into energy efficiency in Dunedin housing, where it was revealed that 70% of energy (might have been more) is leaked out of a house before a person is warmed.
Food is quite expensive, too.
Public transport is godawful.
There is very little to do - shops and cafes do close early, although restaurants, bars, and fast food joints are open late. If you're into the big four sports, you're fine (rugby and it's derivatives, cricket, netball, and hockey) otherwise you're basically out of luck. There are some paintball courses and that kind of thing, but basically if you're not into sports or hunting, be prepared to be taunted. There's a very vocal but relatively small section (~37%) of the population who believe that sports are manly and anybody who doesn't like sports is of dubious sexuality. Oh, and if the local rugby team (the All Blacks) lose a match, domestic violence rates as well as general assaults go up as people look to avenge that defeat, but if the team wins, general assaults go up as people go out looking to boost how great the country is.
If you get a "decent" job working in IT, you will likely be expected to go far beyond what would be expected for your role. Watch out for "...and anything else we say is your job," clauses in your contracts. Also make sure you get copies of your contracts (my last five jobs illegally refused to provide me with one and made it very clear that if I made a fuss about it, I would never work again).
Let's see, what wasn't mentioned. You have to love it here, if you don't you'll be told to "go back where you came from."
If you cross a particular politician (Paula Bennett), she can and will release all your private information if she likes, and not get in any trouble for it. Google it, if you doubt me.
If you want to hear the absolute worst of the country, browse this: https://e2nz.org/migrant-stories/
It's not all that bad, and I always made a point of accepting people for who they are and how they behave towards me. As someone who lived there for years, there is quite honestly no future in the place unless you have a significant income stream.
What's wrong: people don't work hard here.
Not completely wrong, but I will explain. In my last job, I wasn't the only one working double my hours - my immediate boss was working the same hours I was, plus another 20% at one point. I'm sure you can imagine why many people don't bother putting in a good effort. That particular workplace, very few worked to the best of their ability because there was no recognition for it (the guy running the place took the credit, and the cash bonus) and it meant that was your new standard.
His boss was working 8 hours a day, getting paid almost $100k/year. He made (and probably makes) the worst decisions imaginable, such as rolling staff cuts but increasing workload for staff who are already working some hours for free each day. He'll pay attractive female staff members much more (as much as 2 1/3 times), but if you're a plain or unattractive female you get only slightly more (measured in cents) than the males, who get minimum. Try and do something about it, you'll wind up meeting a half dozen of the owner's friends. Also see this: https://e2nz.org/2015/01/27/migrant-tales-engineer-says-new-...
tl;dr: if you're in a low paid job, you have to do more work. If you're in a high paid job, you do little and blame others for what goes wrong.
Think carefully before committing to New Zealand. It can be a filthy little hole.
What's right: There's not much money to be made as an employee, and the further south you head, the worse it is. About 15 minutes south of Christchurch onwards, employers have this idea that they've hired you so you owe them. If you work in Dunedin, expect very low wages and a requirement for unpaid overtime from 25% of your ordinary hours upwards; my last fulltime job there was working 70 hours a week and then taking another 5-15 hours home, meaning I was paid illegally - $4/hour less than minimum wage.
Worker protections are collapsing, and discrimination against age and disabilities is rife. A friend of mine couldn't get a job because he was 46, and one particular company I applied to loved me until they learned I had a disability.
Employers were surveyed a couple of years ago (I can't find the article that reported it, I think it was on the New Zealand Herald website) and a good portion of them said that discrimination against the disabled was disgusting and should be punished, but they were willing to do it for their own businesses.
Anti-intellectualism is also quite strong here, and many emigrants from the country are exporting the attitude. One particular individual gave me hell for years, for bothering to get a CS degree. "Why bother? You can get corporate experience in your home!" He refused to get his head around the whole CS != IT thing. (I've recently discovered that he's gone to university to get himself a degree in design, quite the hypocrite.)
Housing is terrible, again the further south you go the worse it is, with the worst (oldest) in Dunedin. I rented a house down there that had no underfloor insulation, shredded paper as insulation in the roof space, with gaps around doors and windows I could fit fingers through. It was just two bedrooms, and you have to perform section maintenance (i.e. mow the lawns, trim the hedges) too. That's par for the course, and cost about 40% of our wages. If you want a warm and nicely insulated three bedroom house, you'd be looking at nearer to 60% of your income.
I heard of one research project into energy efficiency in Dunedin housing, where it was revealed that 70% of energy (might have been more) is leaked out of a house before a person is warmed.
Food is quite expensive, too.
Public transport is godawful.
There is very little to do - shops and cafes do close early, although restaurants, bars, and fast food joints are open late. If you're into the big four sports, you're fine (rugby and it's derivatives, cricket, netball, and hockey) otherwise you're basically out of luck. There are some paintball courses and that kind of thing, but basically if you're not into sports or hunting, be prepared to be taunted. There's a very vocal but relatively small section (~37%) of the population who believe that sports are manly and anybody who doesn't like sports is of dubious sexuality. Oh, and if the local rugby team (the All Blacks) lose a match, domestic violence rates as well as general assaults go up as people look to avenge that defeat, but if the team wins, general assaults go up as people go out looking to boost how great the country is.
If you get a "decent" job working in IT, you will likely be expected to go far beyond what would be expected for your role. Watch out for "...and anything else we say is your job," clauses in your contracts. Also make sure you get copies of your contracts (my last five jobs illegally refused to provide me with one and made it very clear that if I made a fuss about it, I would never work again).
Let's see, what wasn't mentioned. You have to love it here, if you don't you'll be told to "go back where you came from."
If you cross a particular politician (Paula Bennett), she can and will release all your private information if she likes, and not get in any trouble for it. Google it, if you doubt me.
If you want to hear the absolute worst of the country, browse this: https://e2nz.org/migrant-stories/
It's not all that bad, and I always made a point of accepting people for who they are and how they behave towards me. As someone who lived there for years, there is quite honestly no future in the place unless you have a significant income stream.
What's wrong: people don't work hard here.
Not completely wrong, but I will explain. In my last job, I wasn't the only one working double my hours - my immediate boss was working the same hours I was, plus another 20% at one point. I'm sure you can imagine why many people don't bother putting in a good effort. That particular workplace, very few worked to the best of their ability because there was no recognition for it (the guy running the place took the credit, and the cash bonus) and it meant that was your new standard.
His boss was working 8 hours a day, getting paid almost $100k/year. He made (and probably makes) the worst decisions imaginable, such as rolling staff cuts but increasing workload for staff who are already working some hours for free each day. He'll pay attractive female staff members much more (as much as 2 1/3 times), but if you're a plain or unattractive female you get only slightly more (measured in cents) than the males, who get minimum. Try and do something about it, you'll wind up meeting a half dozen of the owner's friends. Also see this: https://e2nz.org/2015/01/27/migrant-tales-engineer-says-new-...
tl;dr: if you're in a low paid job, you have to do more work. If you're in a high paid job, you do little and blame others for what goes wrong.
Think carefully before committing to New Zealand. It can be a filthy little hole.
I guess I'd have the same reservations about moving to NZ for a job that I would about moving to Small Town, USA for a job. It's very risky career-wise. If things go bad at that job, where else are you going to go? Are there enough jobs locally that would allow you to do, say 20 interviews and actually find a similar job? Or are you looking at another international relocation?
As an fyi to the folks developing this website and those thinking about signing up, I refreshed the page while logged in under my account and it loaded a different account. I have screenshots and other information to pass along if you give an email.
Yep, there are some pretty significant bugs in the site. I've been trying to upload a profile picture for 10 minutes now, one try the tab stopped responding, the second time it redirected to a 502 page.
I met a New Zealand network security specialist in Santa Monica recently. He and his mate moved here. When the general is calling forward the reserves, the reservist would do well to take heed of the front line that's coming toward them.
Can you expound on this warning?
I believe he's implying that this program may be a sign of a generally poor employment environment in New Zealand.
When people offers you free meat, it is because they have hidden a hook in it.
Honestly I can't really see why I should go to New Zeeland even if they had a great jobmarket: why relocate half-way around the world to a country that as far as I know has no interesting tech companies.
Honestly I can't really see why I should go to New Zeeland even if they had a great jobmarket: why relocate half-way around the world to a country that as far as I know has no interesting tech companies.
why relocate half-way around the world to a country that as far as I know has no interesting tech companies.
If that's truly what's holding you back, I gather that New Zealand might not be the place for you. I have been told, however, that NZ has other fine qualities having little to do with tech. For instance, the fact that it's half-way around the world, and they talk like those musicians on that HBO show, might be reason enough for me personally.
If that's truly what's holding you back, I gather that New Zealand might not be the place for you. I have been told, however, that NZ has other fine qualities having little to do with tech. For instance, the fact that it's half-way around the world, and they talk like those musicians on that HBO show, might be reason enough for me personally.
There's good surf, for one thing.
Probably just means not to expect similar salaries then you'd get in the US. Most IT jobs pay quite a bit less than other countries (UK, US, Aus) hence why most NZ IT people leave.
Given that they're apparently so desperate that they're resorting to this ridiculous tactic ("come interview in NZ and we'll pay for the trip for you!", something that used to be totally standard here in the US and still probably is for long-distance candidates), you'd think they'd wise up and raise their salaries to attract and retain people.
These are one time fixed costs.
Yes, but this is major evidence of short-sighted thinking. If you're resorting to using a silly marketing campaign to convince people worldwide to come apply for jobs in your city, you have a serious problem already with a lack of skilled people, otherwise you wouldn't be resorting to such a desperate technique.
I think it is win/win. Presumably the Engineers interviewing have a salary already that the NZ company would have to compete with. The NZ lifestyle as well may be seen as a benefit not dissimilar to free food, foosball, laundry etc...
I hear you Sun Tzu. Did they have specific complaints?
What do you mean by this?
New Zealand has a talent vacuum in tech. Highly skilled Kiwi born talent often move overseas to Australia, London, or the US to go after higher wages.
It's this vacuum and the growing tech needs that allows for these programs to happen, or for somebody to get a 5 year work visa on work experience alone.
It's this vacuum and the growing tech needs that allows for these programs to happen, or for somebody to get a 5 year work visa on work experience alone.
So they have literally hundreds of tech jobs and they're looking to interview literally 100 people?
Yup, pretty standard marketing technique. Offer a special deal to a select few but by advertising that deal you get other interested/talking about it. Kind of like we are.
> LookSee Wellington has gone viral!
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As of March 2nd 16:00 GMT
As of March 2nd 16:00 GMT
For a brief period of time I was either able to edit someone else's profile or the information I entered was overwritten with that of someone with the same last name. Be careful with entering any personal information there.
I used to work in Wellington -- pretty fun city, pretty slow internet. Furniture (and shoes for some reason) are hella expensive. If you move there from the states load up a shipping pod ahead of time.
We now have pretty fast internet. I'm on 100mbit with unlimited data for $79/month, and could have 1Gbit for $129/month.
International speeds can occasionally be a bit slow, but the widespread use of caching and CDNs limits the impact of this. It's mostly pretty good.
International speeds can occasionally be a bit slow, but the widespread use of caching and CDNs limits the impact of this. It's mostly pretty good.
That's great to hear! How is mobile data these days?
There appears to be some serious security issues with the site. I was filling out my profile, but when I saved my bio, my session was some now that of a developer from Brazil...
Cool, but.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington#Climate
Not for me.
Not for me.
Record low is just below freezing? I'm fine with that.
Wow! Living in Canada's "Humid subcontinental" with a range from high to low of about 80C and cherishing the few weeks a year we get this moderate range, I should make it a life goal to move in such a place. I wonder if the wind is that big of a deal.
I've met Canadians who move here. They still complain about the cold - because the insides of our houses are typically not much warmer than the outside. 5 degrees celcius is pleasant weather for a stroll, but being surrounded by 5 degree air is not that pleasant when you're indoors and trying to sleep.
Funny, for me that would be a pretty nice weather. This is my reference point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate
Fair enough - I know "Hell" is in Norway, but that sounds pretty close to me!
30 F to 88 F is not for you? While that's probably true, I'm greatly amused by people who can't survive outside, say, California.
Having no real winter must get really boring.
Having no real winter must get really boring.
I'm ok with cold. Sort of. It's the rain and lack of hot that would bother me. I actually live in Oregon's "high desert", which is more of a steppe, really.
My ideal summer includes a month or two of 30C, rather than that being the highest temperature ever recorded.
My ideal summer includes a month or two of 30C, rather than that being the highest temperature ever recorded.
I don't get it. That seems perfectly pleasant. Not too hot, not too cold.
There are a few similar programmes coming out like this. If you're an entrepreneur interested in NZ and working on social impact, you should also check out the Edmund Hillary Fellowship. Gives you access to the Global Impact Visa, and residency after 3 years.
http://ehf.org
http://ehf.org
So my hacker brain says anyone looking into this who's coming from somewhere far away (like the US, Europe) should maximise their opportunities by hopping over to Australia and doing some job interviews there too.
The long flight to NZ is covered. You're only paying for a short NZ/Aus return flight.
The long flight to NZ is covered. You're only paying for a short NZ/Aus return flight.
This seems kind of unethical. The government is doing something nice for you and offering to cover the cost of flight and accommodation. In exchange I would expect to focus my attention on the opportunities they are offering, and not treat it as a free plane ticket.
That just seems like the fair thing to do.
That just seems like the fair thing to do.
Australia: better pay, better hours, better conditions, better weather, and better career prospects.
New Zealand: free plane ticket. Rugby. But then, Australia has that, too. Umm.
Hmmm.
Honestly, being born in New Zealand, earned a Bachelor CS degree, unable to get a job there. Before I graduated, I had plenty of experience but no qualification so nobody would take me. After I graduated, the same places said I had a qualification but no experience so they wouldn't take me.
New Zealand: free plane ticket. Rugby. But then, Australia has that, too. Umm.
Hmmm.
Honestly, being born in New Zealand, earned a Bachelor CS degree, unable to get a job there. Before I graduated, I had plenty of experience but no qualification so nobody would take me. After I graduated, the same places said I had a qualification but no experience so they wouldn't take me.
What is none of the jobs end up being what you're after - or if you don't get accepted for any of the offers?
You've already traveled that far and you've done what they've asked you to. What you do in your spare time is your business. I see nothing unethical about paying for your own return flight to Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane to extend your chances at employment.
You've already traveled that far and you've done what they've asked you to. What you do in your spare time is your business. I see nothing unethical about paying for your own return flight to Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane to extend your chances at employment.
Site is pretty buggy. I've registered and I keep seeing other people's profile data pop up
That's why they want to hire you to fix it :)
Looks like a caching error.
The two hardest things in programming are naming things, caching things, and off-by-one errors.
The two hardest things in programming are naming things, caching things, and off-by-one errors.
I've looked at possibly seeking employment in NZ, but most of the shops (at least the one posting on the sites I've searched), are .Net or MS shops, which I'm not too terribly interested in. Hopefully this job fair will have a bit more diversity.
OMG Welly? The most beautiful country in the world and the most awesome people - seriously excellent people. I'd move there in a heartbeat. If you can - go and no - one week is not long enough, try a month or two.
New Zealand is pretty great (actually sounds interesting)but the 12 Hour time difference is horrible.
I would need a week just to adjust, and then talking english all the time is a major drain that to.
I would need a week just to adjust, and then talking english all the time is a major drain that to.
Nice PR stunt! I think the wrong incentive tells me that the quality of the submissions and the outcome of this (hiring the right people) won't be very good.
Site is still buggy.. Contact us will redirect to "Global Page Error" page
I think most professional tech worker they are trying to hire would be able to afford a round trip ticket and travel expenses to New Zealand.
I can afford it as a vacation, though it would be a pretty big dent.
But I can't afford it just to hear "sorry, we've decided to go with someone else."
But I can't afford it just to hear "sorry, we've decided to go with someone else."
Flew to Auckland from SFO for our honeymoon for ~$950 roundtrip per ticket, so it's not horrendously expensive, but of course I'd hardly call that the kind of sum you'd want to throw away jut for an interview.
$950 from SFO isn't a bad deal. It can be considerably more expensive around peak season if you don't catch a sale (easily $1.6k to $2k).
Prices have dropped massively in the last year or so as there are more flights and airlines doing AKL<->SFO now
Even over the summer months? Google is telling me about $1,400 for late March.
United entered the market within the last two years and that does seem to have driven the prices down a bit.
I fly to Auckland or Christchurch at least once a year with a family of 4 so welcome cheaper prices!
United entered the market within the last two years and that does seem to have driven the prices down a bit.
I fly to Auckland or Christchurch at least once a year with a family of 4 so welcome cheaper prices!
Ours was April on Air NZ but its been a couple years and 1400 doesn't sound out of the question.
Not if you're from India or Sri Lanka. Even though we could afford a round trip to NZ, but I wouldn't want to spend about 2 months of salary for an interview.
I know loads of tech workers who are still paying off their student debt/etc (or putting their kids through school) despite the relatively high salary.
3rd world people are not in the same boat, in Brazil a trip to NZ is a fortune, I've done it twice because of my job and for fun. It's one of the most expensive plane tickets you can buy here.
But are they willing? There are so many countries.
What if I do it for the trip then say no and go back home?
I'd love to visit New Zealand, not sure I wanna stay. It's nice there but it's really far from everything.
I'd love to visit New Zealand, not sure I wanna stay. It's nice there but it's really far from everything.
[deleted]
What if you went into a bakery and ate all the free samples?
I believe their hypothesis is:
P(Move to NZ | Visit NZ) >> P(Move to NZ)
P(Move to NZ | Visit NZ) >> P(Move to NZ)
> far from everything
Exactly how we like it.
Exactly how we like it.
That's explicitly allowed in the FAQ, but it's likely you'll be pretty disappointed. The reason for this is that it sounds like they've packed the week with activities beyond the job interviews. Those activities might be enjoyable (they're trying to get you to move to NZ), but you won't get to see much of the country. And they explicitly won't let you extend your stay. So you'll be spending a week of your time, including two really long flights, to essentially get a dog-and-pony show and a few job interviews. It's not a bad deal, but probably not worth it if you're not considering moving there.
What if you fly this person (who is great on paper) to Wellington, and they turn out to be the most toxic person you've ever met. What if your luck is truly awful and you fly out 100 of these people?
If you find from a group of 100 people, that each one has a personalty that is so "toxic" they are impossible to deal with. I assure you it is you that is "toxic".
We've all met developers that were so lacking in the intangibles that (hindsight being 20/20) they probably we not worth the hire/interview. Imagine that with a couple grand flight tacked on. Don't take a rhetorical question so personally.
I don't see the parent's comment as taking the question personally -- it's just taking it a step further.
Yes, we've all met (or been, at occasion) such people; and yes, it's theoretically possible to interview 100 of such people at the same time. But in reality, the probability of that happening is astronomically lower compared to the probability that the problem was in the interviewer in the first place.
Yes, we've all met (or been, at occasion) such people; and yes, it's theoretically possible to interview 100 of such people at the same time. But in reality, the probability of that happening is astronomically lower compared to the probability that the problem was in the interviewer in the first place.
You write it off as marketing costs and go on with life. What else should you do?
Give them mandatory socialization training.
What if you arrange an interview for a person (who is great on paper), and they turn out to be the most toxic person you've ever met. What if your luck is truly awful and you interview 100 of these people?
The costs of this interview are higher but then so is the relative gain of a good hire if they're bleeding talent internationally. The fundamental nature of the gamble is the same.
The costs of this interview are higher but then so is the relative gain of a good hire if they're bleeding talent internationally. The fundamental nature of the gamble is the same.
Then you don't get the benefit you were looking for from this event and then either try again or do something different? I don't get the point of your question.
That being said, most of the tech is centralized in just a few shops. Everything is contracted out to Datacom, Catalyst, Frondie, Solnet, etc. etc.
I mean companies do have their own IT staff, but just due to the shortage of talent, a lot gets contracted out, including tons of government stuff.
If you're under 30 and a US citizen, you can get a Holiday Work Visa and live/work there for a year. (This is how I started out, before switching to another visa). If you're a citizen of a commonwealth state, I think you can get a two year visa to most other commonwealth countries (including AU/NZ).
Oh and Wellington is the windiest city in the world. This is not an exaggeration. Oh and expect at least one earthquake a year too.