Electronic meters’ false readings up to six times higher than actual consumption(sciencebulletin.org)
sciencebulletin.org
Electronic meters’ false readings up to six times higher than actual consumption
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/10940.html
158 comments
OK, first I never expect to read "Moved to California, paying a much more reasonable utility bill.." :-)
That said, it is very hard to argue with the power company. As the article points out you can have the meter sent to a special testing lab but if it works, well it you are out of luck. About 10 years ago a friend in the Santa Cruz mountains got a bill that was out of whack (and he was a EE) and the power company would not be budged, so he pulled his meter out of the socket for a month[1] (don't try this at home!) and still got billed for a bunch of power use. It turned out that someone had 'tapped' the power wires leading up to his house, and PG&E wasn't bothering to read his house meter, just looking at how much their transformer sent to the 'only' house up there. Whoops.
One of the things I suspected, and then later proved, was that my 1st generation SunnyBoy inverters from SMA on my Solar system confused the smart meter when they installed it. It would not accurately read the power generated by the panels so was under reporting power generated. That got "fixed" when one of the inverters failed (unrelated, it was over 10 years old) and we replaced two 2500W inverters with a single 5500W inverter. The modern inverter and smart meter get along fine.
[1] Since he lives in the mountains and outages were not infrequent he had a whole house generator powered by propane that he could use.
That said, it is very hard to argue with the power company. As the article points out you can have the meter sent to a special testing lab but if it works, well it you are out of luck. About 10 years ago a friend in the Santa Cruz mountains got a bill that was out of whack (and he was a EE) and the power company would not be budged, so he pulled his meter out of the socket for a month[1] (don't try this at home!) and still got billed for a bunch of power use. It turned out that someone had 'tapped' the power wires leading up to his house, and PG&E wasn't bothering to read his house meter, just looking at how much their transformer sent to the 'only' house up there. Whoops.
One of the things I suspected, and then later proved, was that my 1st generation SunnyBoy inverters from SMA on my Solar system confused the smart meter when they installed it. It would not accurately read the power generated by the panels so was under reporting power generated. That got "fixed" when one of the inverters failed (unrelated, it was over 10 years old) and we replaced two 2500W inverters with a single 5500W inverter. The modern inverter and smart meter get along fine.
[1] Since he lives in the mountains and outages were not infrequent he had a whole house generator powered by propane that he could use.
I'm curious as to the details of your friend's story.
Maybe they do it differently in CA than FL, but I have never seen any device that measures "how much their transformer" sends installed in any normal situation.
A more reasonable explanation would be that they were using "estimated" billing -- billing that is based on a few spot checks of the meter reading, but not a check every month. This is common in places that the electrical meter is not easily accessible, such as behind a gate or being guarded by a dog(or out in the mountains). In this case they would have extrapolated previous months to produce an estimated usage and billed on that.
I have had direct experience with a local power company billing for a "demand"[1] rate that exceeded by >300% the actual capability of the transformer and wires to supply. If that amount had actually been consumed, the wires would have caught fire and/or the transformer would have failed, possibly spectacularly. After I pointed this out to them, they quietly refunded the amount without an explanation and assured me there were no other errors of this type.
[1] https://www.talgov.com/you/you-account-plans-demand-billing....
Maybe they do it differently in CA than FL, but I have never seen any device that measures "how much their transformer" sends installed in any normal situation.
A more reasonable explanation would be that they were using "estimated" billing -- billing that is based on a few spot checks of the meter reading, but not a check every month. This is common in places that the electrical meter is not easily accessible, such as behind a gate or being guarded by a dog(or out in the mountains). In this case they would have extrapolated previous months to produce an estimated usage and billed on that.
I have had direct experience with a local power company billing for a "demand"[1] rate that exceeded by >300% the actual capability of the transformer and wires to supply. If that amount had actually been consumed, the wires would have caught fire and/or the transformer would have failed, possibly spectacularly. After I pointed this out to them, they quietly refunded the amount without an explanation and assured me there were no other errors of this type.
[1] https://www.talgov.com/you/you-account-plans-demand-billing....
I can only relate it as I heard it. I expect that by now the properties have wireless smart meters and actually reading the meter is no longer an issue.
Maybe they do it differently in CA than FL, but I have never seen any device that measures "how much their transformer" sends installed in any normal situation.
Indeed. I don't think that gets measured anywhere, other than in a general "this areas utilises "x" Mwh, so on average, section "y" would use "z"
Indeed. I don't think that gets measured anywhere, other than in a general "this areas utilises "x" Mwh, so on average, section "y" would use "z"
> being guarded by a dog
lmao ... 0. Go on vacation for a month so your usage is at an all-time low, 1. Buy dog, 2. Profit while they extrapolate from the vacation month
lmao ... 0. Go on vacation for a month so your usage is at an all-time low, 1. Buy dog, 2. Profit while they extrapolate from the vacation month
3. Get hit by a massive bill when moving to another property.
In Norway, they do the same - you are supposed to report your actual usage, but if you don't or they believe you've gamed the numbers, they just guesstimate based on the average consumption in the area, past consumption in your home, phase of the moon, whatever.
However, when you move, both you and the new owner/renter need to read off the meter and sign a form, after which the balance is settled.
Years ago, I had a massive refund - ever the workaholic, I traveled 230+ days a year and, unsurprisingly, consumed much less electricity than the previous tenant.
The utility company refused to believe the numbers I reported (which, in fairness, I didn't report too often, as I was most often abroad during the reporting window (typically a couple of days either side of a billing period change))
After a few years, I asked them to send a representative to have a look at my meter; they refused, claiming that they had other, more important matters to attend to.
End result: When I moved after seven years, I got a refund of more than US$6,000. I had a couple of extra beers that evening.
I warned the incoming tenant that he really, really wanted to report his usage - if they guesstimated consumption based on my numbers, he'd be in for a nasty surprise when leaving the property...
In Norway, they do the same - you are supposed to report your actual usage, but if you don't or they believe you've gamed the numbers, they just guesstimate based on the average consumption in the area, past consumption in your home, phase of the moon, whatever.
However, when you move, both you and the new owner/renter need to read off the meter and sign a form, after which the balance is settled.
Years ago, I had a massive refund - ever the workaholic, I traveled 230+ days a year and, unsurprisingly, consumed much less electricity than the previous tenant.
The utility company refused to believe the numbers I reported (which, in fairness, I didn't report too often, as I was most often abroad during the reporting window (typically a couple of days either side of a billing period change))
After a few years, I asked them to send a representative to have a look at my meter; they refused, claiming that they had other, more important matters to attend to.
End result: When I moved after seven years, I got a refund of more than US$6,000. I had a couple of extra beers that evening.
I warned the incoming tenant that he really, really wanted to report his usage - if they guesstimated consumption based on my numbers, he'd be in for a nasty surprise when leaving the property...
My provider here allows me to report my usage with either their mobile app or website. If I forget to do it, they charge me based on some average like the one you describe. It works quite well on the whole, and seems both fair and efficient.
[deleted]
I had a place in the UK where the meter was connected incorrectly.
It had "Economy 7" tariff, which was supposed to mean 7 hours of cheaper electricity at night. In fact, we had the cheap rate in the day, and the expensive rate at night.
The online system never accepted my readings, and a guy would come round. One of them showed me how the meter was wrong, but didn't want to report it -- I don't think he was paid enough to care.
It had "Economy 7" tariff, which was supposed to mean 7 hours of cheaper electricity at night. In fact, we had the cheap rate in the day, and the expensive rate at night.
The online system never accepted my readings, and a guy would come round. One of them showed me how the meter was wrong, but didn't want to report it -- I don't think he was paid enough to care.
Shortly after I moved to the Bay in 2007, we were excited to get out the lights and decorate the house for Xmas. Our bill was $1,200 that month. We had a lot of lights, but usually ran them in Oklahoma, where electricity is much, much cheaper. No tiered pricing either.
A watt is about a buck a year, so 12 months/year times 1200/month is about 14.4 kilowatts, thats over 120 amps average load, or maybe 240 amps worth of blinkie lights. I find that unlikely to be christmas lights.
It looks like you're using national average electricity pricing of about 10 cents per kwh. In California there's a tiered pricing schedule; the more you use the more it costs -- up to a max of around 500% in Jan 2007.
With this in mind his load is closer to 24A. Seems entirely reasonable for 2007 with incandescent strings. I remember tripping 20A breakers with incandescent lights and having to run lines from different circuits in my childhood.
With this in mind his load is closer to 24A. Seems entirely reasonable for 2007 with incandescent strings. I remember tripping 20A breakers with incandescent lights and having to run lines from different circuits in my childhood.
Yup, incandescent strings, reindeer, bush blankets, you name it. It looked like Xmas threw up on our house. I've tripped breakers before.
I would also note our bill at that house ran $400-500 when "normally cold", which I should have mentioned in my post and which only occurs here a few months of the year. Still, we were shocked and it was a lot of lights!
I would also note our bill at that house ran $400-500 when "normally cold", which I should have mentioned in my post and which only occurs here a few months of the year. Still, we were shocked and it was a lot of lights!
Grow lights and decorated the house with "greenery" for christmas? Sorry, read news too often about pot plantations and their high electricity consumption...
I believe https://getservice.com is the "deal-with-humans-as-a-service" you're looking for, taking a 30% cut of recovered money. I haven't personally used them, though.
For all those that are facing a similar issue
1 - shut down the incoming circuit breaker, see if the meter "stops spinning" (today it's a light that blinks). If it doesn't, call the electrical company
2 - Get the (heater power) x (time it stays on IN HOURS) = your consumption. Heating and electric showers usually make up the bulk of your consumption (unless you're into home baking or bitcoin mining but even then). Calculate that, see if it matcher what you're paying
3 - Weather proof your place. Find places where cold air seeps through, seal them. Keep doors and windows closed when using aircon.
1 - shut down the incoming circuit breaker, see if the meter "stops spinning" (today it's a light that blinks). If it doesn't, call the electrical company
2 - Get the (heater power) x (time it stays on IN HOURS) = your consumption. Heating and electric showers usually make up the bulk of your consumption (unless you're into home baking or bitcoin mining but even then). Calculate that, see if it matcher what you're paying
3 - Weather proof your place. Find places where cold air seeps through, seal them. Keep doors and windows closed when using aircon.
If you live in the SF Bay Area and you have PGE, you can opt out of a smart meter and go back to analog. The catch is that you have to pay $75 up front and $360 over 3 years; still worth it.
In the UK:
- make a complaint
- ensure the company is recording it as a complaint officially
- request that the company provides their "final response"
- contact the Financial Ombudsman Service
Normally mentioning the FOS is enough for all issues to be magically resolved by the supplier instantly, but if not, the FOS a will sort it out for you - free of charge.
The reason companies "shit the bed" about FOS stuff is because they get charged a flat ~£600 if the FOS receives a valid complaint about them, regardless of merit. This is in addition to the compensation they pay you.
- make a complaint
- ensure the company is recording it as a complaint officially
- request that the company provides their "final response"
- contact the Financial Ombudsman Service
Normally mentioning the FOS is enough for all issues to be magically resolved by the supplier instantly, but if not, the FOS a will sort it out for you - free of charge.
The reason companies "shit the bed" about FOS stuff is because they get charged a flat ~£600 if the FOS receives a valid complaint about them, regardless of merit. This is in addition to the compensation they pay you.
This is true, make sure you say the words, 'I want this recorded as an official complaint', and ask for confirmation. All regulated industries will go the extra mile for this. I was once in a call centre were they had special complaint handlers for people who said the above words, so they could resolve it before the ombudsman hears!
Technically, any expression of dissatisfaction must be recorded as a complaint. Many/most companies do not seem to comply with this.
I got charged $600 for two months in Toronto during a cold winter a while back and calling Toronto Hydro got it reduced to the actual $300 it was supposed to be. So FWIW in my situation at least it was worth the effort to look into it.
I was in an older (1980s) apartment building so I couldn't blame a singular meter, I'm not really sure how measurements are done in big buildings (maybe someone could explain?).
I've heard that elsewhere in Ontario, Canada and in Toronto (two different companies) that overcharging is a big recurring issue. I wasn't given a good explanation about my one anecdotal case outside of an 'accounting error'. I just knew that it sounded far too high to be normal.
I was in an older (1980s) apartment building so I couldn't blame a singular meter, I'm not really sure how measurements are done in big buildings (maybe someone could explain?).
I've heard that elsewhere in Ontario, Canada and in Toronto (two different companies) that overcharging is a big recurring issue. I wasn't given a good explanation about my one anecdotal case outside of an 'accounting error'. I just knew that it sounded far too high to be normal.
> I'm not really sure how measurements are done in big buildings (maybe someone could explain?).
In most jurisdictions, your electricity must be metered separately if you are billed by the utility company. In my building, there is a room with a bank of electricity meters, one for each apartment. Next to it is a bank of gas meters.
In most jurisdictions, your electricity must be metered separately if you are billed by the utility company. In my building, there is a room with a bank of electricity meters, one for each apartment. Next to it is a bank of gas meters.
Is water different? I lived in a complex (of about 40x 2-3 storey buildings with ~12 apartments each) where they said the water bill was the building total divided by the number of apartments in the building. I wasn't complaining because it was so cheap, but I wondered if it was legal.
It's legal, and in that case you get a water bill from the apartment complex (or the management company) rather than from the utility company.
My lease in California has the water divided up like that; when I signed the lease it was specified as such. I guess the water is cheap enough that nobody really complains.
More importantly there's just one base charge for the apartment complex instead of each unit getting a separate base charge.
As long as it's specified in your signed lease it's ok.
> I'm not really sure how measurements are done in big buildings (maybe someone could explain?).
Similar to klodolph - it's very common in the UK for each dwelling in a shared building to have its own supply, termination point and meter for both electricity and gas.
Similar to klodolph - it's very common in the UK for each dwelling in a shared building to have its own supply, termination point and meter for both electricity and gas.
Paul English, the co-founder of Kayak, founded a company to do just this, called "GetHuman": https://gethuman.com/
It gives you an option, they can guide you through stuff giving you specific steps they've learned from interacting with the companies in the past, or you can have them handle it for you, for a small charge.
It gives you an option, they can guide you through stuff giving you specific steps they've learned from interacting with the companies in the past, or you can have them handle it for you, for a small charge.
If there were a "deal-with-humans-as-a-service" business that took a 20% cut of any money I could get back in situations like this, I'd totally pay for it.
Just learned a couple of weeks ago from a friend of me that there is something like this in Norway.
They only deal with technicalities around the invoicing, not actual usage but still claimed to maje a decent living by finding issues with invoices for 1/5 companies.
(Oh, and I think they took 50%.)
Just learned a couple of weeks ago from a friend of me that there is something like this in Norway.
They only deal with technicalities around the invoicing, not actual usage but still claimed to maje a decent living by finding issues with invoices for 1/5 companies.
(Oh, and I think they took 50%.)
I once was on the phone for hours with Time Warner Cable about a $50 security deposit charged twice, that was a mistake on their side. Turns out I was paying someone elses bill! At the end I explained to the supervisor that I will keep calling back until they fix this, not because I don't have $50 to spare, but because this is their messup and it's a matter of principle. They put me on hold (for about an hour) until their technical team fixed up something on their billing system.
It's a pain to do this, and most peoples time is worth more, but if noone does it, we will be (in fact we already are) living in a scam society, where everyone is making money on everyone else's lazyness to track things down. When you call in, you are doing good not only for yourself, but for the company as well as every other customer.
It's a pain to do this, and most peoples time is worth more, but if noone does it, we will be (in fact we already are) living in a scam society, where everyone is making money on everyone else's lazyness to track things down. When you call in, you are doing good not only for yourself, but for the company as well as every other customer.
Counterpoint: They are analyzing call logs to determine how in the future to better mislead customers and avoid dealing with callers like yourself, so every time you call in you're hastening the advent of an even more oppressive system.
The refusal to investigate is so common. It's doubly sad because when it is at the benefit of the other party, investigations are usually thorough.
Should be an obligation to do business don't you think ?
Should be an obligation to do business don't you think ?
My brother owned a vacation condo in Reno. He didn't rent it out and only occupied it 10% of the year. He always had a big electric bill. After eight years, he found out the meters were cross wires with the next unit which was occupied full time. It would have cost him more in legal fees to do anything about it than he could have hoped to recoup.
Just assuming he lost $100 a month, after 8 years that's 9.6k. It seems like a lawyer could be had for much less.
Statute of limitations might come into play here.
I'm not sure if statute of limitations applies to civil cases. As far as I recall, you can try to sue for any reason at all, although you may not be successful.
If you had electric baseboard heating it's possible those readings were accurate.
I did have baseboard heating. But it was a very tiny single-room studio, and what I was paying was still out of whack for baseboard heating. There was also one month when I was out of town, had the heaters off, and was still getting a large bill.
I got like a 800 bill one month for an apartment not much larger than you describe. Then close to that the next.
Turned out they had routed the hot water from the heater under the foundation to the taps and there was a leak. They came and jackhammered up a section of floor and fixed it and apartment complex wound up crediting me for rent.
Turned out they had routed the hot water from the heater under the foundation to the taps and there was a leak. They came and jackhammered up a section of floor and fixed it and apartment complex wound up crediting me for rent.
Sounds like a civil court issue?
There's a good chance they'll fix it if you even threaten them with that.
There's a good chance they'll fix it if you even threaten them with that.
[deleted]
Check the actual papers.[1][2] For single-phase meters, which covers most residential uses, this is a non-problem: "No deviation beyond the specification could be observed; no influence of interference due to interfering or distorted voltage, and no influence caused by interfering currents were observed." All the problems were seen with 3-phase meters, usually found only in industrial and commercial environments.
Figure 3 of [1] is puzzling. They claim to be testing a 3-phase meter, but the circuit shown is single-phase. Are they testing 3-phase meters with only one phase connected? That's way out of balance; 3-phase systems normally have at least roughly equal loads on each phase. While a 3-phase meter with an wildly asymmetrical load ought to measure accurately, that's not a normal condition.
[1] http://doc.utwente.nl/102016/1/Runaway_energy_Meters.pdf [2] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7866234/
Figure 3 of [1] is puzzling. They claim to be testing a 3-phase meter, but the circuit shown is single-phase. Are they testing 3-phase meters with only one phase connected? That's way out of balance; 3-phase systems normally have at least roughly equal loads on each phase. While a 3-phase meter with an wildly asymmetrical load ought to measure accurately, that's not a normal condition.
[1] http://doc.utwente.nl/102016/1/Runaway_energy_Meters.pdf [2] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7866234/
In most parts of Europe 3-phase is the standard. Neither high-leg delta nor split phase have significant deployment outside North America.
That being said, in household use the per-household balancing between the phases is usually very poor (e.g. all lightning on one phase). Overall the balancing turns out ok across the grid, but the meter doesn't see that. So this is a very relevant condition for household meters.
That being said, in household use the per-household balancing between the phases is usually very poor (e.g. all lightning on one phase). Overall the balancing turns out ok across the grid, but the meter doesn't see that. So this is a very relevant condition for household meters.
U.K. is single phase per house.
Yes - we had a power cut recently and when I went outside you could see it was affecting every third house, i.e. just a single phase had gone. Reported it and it was fixed promptly.
Ah. That's helpful. US utility residential practice, for those outside the US, is that pole transformers take in 3 phase at a few KV, at 60Hz, and output 120/240 VAC single phase with a shared neutral. That's what most houses get, supplied over 3 wires, with a 3-wire single phase meter.
Pole-mounted transformers usually serve about 7 houses or so.
Even in apartment buildings, each apartment has its own meter, almost always single phase.
Even in apartment buildings, each apartment has its own meter, almost always single phase.
I'm interested in what area the overhead lines are only 1.1 kV. From what I have seen the high-side voltages are much higher, in the range of 7 kV or 14.4 kV line to ground.
Also, most overhead transformers I have seen are entirely single phase. Often you will see a bank of 3 single-phase transformers if a customer requires 3 phase service. Larger customers are connected to a pad-mounted 3-phase transformer connected to the primary overhead service through an underground dip from the pole.
Also, most overhead transformers I have seen are entirely single phase. Often you will see a bank of 3 single-phase transformers if a customer requires 3 phase service. Larger customers are connected to a pad-mounted 3-phase transformer connected to the primary overhead service through an underground dip from the pole.
You can't "take in 3 phase and output single phase". That's not how a transformer works. It'd be amazing if it did, as in Nobel Prize winning.
In the US most homes are just tapped to 1 phase, if there are 3 on the pole.
In the US most homes are just tapped to 1 phase, if there are 3 on the pole.
Yeah, you are right. I think what they were trying to say is that the transformers are fed on the high side by one of three phases (as is typical), and that the residential step-down is a split phase 120/240.
Yes, that is the normal configuration for power delivery to a residence in most of North America.
Most new apartment buildings in Poland have 3 phases connected to all apartments. Since there's municipal central heating, there's no point in connecting natural gas to those buildings, so you're forced to use induction stovetops. And those are much more efficient with 3 phases.
Induction stovetop spots are usually one big coil fed at a high frequency, right? How do the phases of the power supply matter?
I'm no electrician but I'm sure 3-phase meters are a norm in Estonia. You would usually have devices with high power requirement like electric water heaters and ovens connected to separate phases. And they are often sitting idle as well.
In the US, devices with high power requirements are generally connected "between" phases -- the phase-to-neutral voltage is(depending on your transformer configuration) generally 120v, with some configurations generating 208v from 1 of the 3 phases to neutral. Phase-to-phase voltage is generally 220-240v.
Loads that span all 3 phases are generally motor loads that will benefit from the rotating magnetic field that 3-phase service provides -- such as pumps and compressors.
3 phase power to residential is rare in the US.
Loads that span all 3 phases are generally motor loads that will benefit from the rotating magnetic field that 3-phase service provides -- such as pumps and compressors.
3 phase power to residential is rare in the US.
You're confusing two subtly different things.
Residential power in North America is usually delivered as "split phase", +120V, neutral, and -120V. (180 degrees out of phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOh2OSJ44eE) The voltage across the two hot conductors is 240V, which is used for big stuff. You get it by tapping a transformer in the middle of a coil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
Three phase power has three hot conductors, 120 degrees out of phase to each other. In the US it can be delivered at a bunch of different voltages, depending on what transformer the customer installs, but generally I worked with 277/480. (277V hot to neutral, 480V hot to hot. Generally all commercial lighting runs on 277V.)
And to be specific, three phase is primarily useful because motors that use it are self-starting, you don't need to capacitor-and-switch arrangement single phase motors use, which frequently break. Less important now that most big motors use VFDs. Also, supposedly due to some frequency voodoo you don't need to use as much cable when running three phrase transmission cable.
Residential power in North America is usually delivered as "split phase", +120V, neutral, and -120V. (180 degrees out of phase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOh2OSJ44eE) The voltage across the two hot conductors is 240V, which is used for big stuff. You get it by tapping a transformer in the middle of a coil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
Three phase power has three hot conductors, 120 degrees out of phase to each other. In the US it can be delivered at a bunch of different voltages, depending on what transformer the customer installs, but generally I worked with 277/480. (277V hot to neutral, 480V hot to hot. Generally all commercial lighting runs on 277V.)
And to be specific, three phase is primarily useful because motors that use it are self-starting, you don't need to capacitor-and-switch arrangement single phase motors use, which frequently break. Less important now that most big motors use VFDs. Also, supposedly due to some frequency voodoo you don't need to use as much cable when running three phrase transmission cable.
Thanks for the clarification and much more detailed explanation. I was aware of the split-phase nuance and have been hit by 277 a couple of not-so-fun times.
As to the benefit to motors, it was my understanding that using split-phase or a single phase and a capacitor creates a less-than-optimal magnetic field which results in more noise/vibration and wear on the motor as opposed to 3 phase.
As to the benefit to motors, it was my understanding that using split-phase or a single phase and a capacitor creates a less-than-optimal magnetic field which results in more noise/vibration and wear on the motor as opposed to 3 phase.
There also exists 120/208 three phase in the US. 120V phase to neutral, 208V phase to phase. It's very common in commercial buildings that don't have big loads.
Same in Norway. Almost all new installations have 3-phase.
Norway is a different case from most of the rest of the world, we run what's called an IT network earthing system where there is no neutral lead. Everything is connected between two phases getting 240v, and the earth wire is tapped from an actual metal rod dug into the earth.
This setup is pretty much a mess, and can wreak havoc on laboratory setups, so e.g. at universities all the lab rooms are laid out with TN (the standard everyone else uses). This means you can mess stuff up in the lab by running an extension cord from the adjacent non-lab room (e.g. get large ground voltage differences, all sorts of wanky stuff).
This setup is pretty much a mess, and can wreak havoc on laboratory setups, so e.g. at universities all the lab rooms are laid out with TN (the standard everyone else uses). This means you can mess stuff up in the lab by running an extension cord from the adjacent non-lab room (e.g. get large ground voltage differences, all sorts of wanky stuff).
In Europe 3-phase is the most common.
Not in Belgium as far as I know.
Here 3-phase is only installed when people use heavy duty equipment. The only people I know with 3-phase are joiners.
I'm in EU too. We had recently a blown fuse or something in the entire 5 story building, the result was sort of weird: lights were ok in the entire house, half of the power sockets in the flat were ok, half of the power sockets were without power. That's when I realized that each of these 230V circuits are probably connected to a different phase. (Perhaps so that the load gets distributed evenly)
I'm not sure about that. Many old electric cookers required a 3-phase hookup. Newer ones don't seem to, so perhaps it's on its way out.
That sounds very unlikely. I would love a source for that. How do you hook up a cooker then without combining two phases?
Why can't you have a one (two w/ 180 deg) phase cooker?
we have 220 volts in europe, we don't need to combine phases to get decent wattage with out having to install bus-bars
I am from Europe and here (Austria) you definitely need to hook it up with two phases and we get 230V at a 16A breaker.
One phase is the standard in UK and Spain too. You don't get the same amount of Watts outs of a hob wired with one phase, and most hobs seem to be possible to wire either way.
I'm trying to google a diagram, but I only find a bunch of forum posts that explain. For Neff stuff (the one we have), the connectors are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
1-2-3 would be separate phases in a 3-phase home and joined together for a single phase.
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/neff-hob-t1-k40x2-wiring-...
I'm trying to google a diagram, but I only find a bunch of forum posts that explain. For Neff stuff (the one we have), the connectors are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
1-2-3 would be separate phases in a 3-phase home and joined together for a single phase.
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/neff-hob-t1-k40x2-wiring-...
I know nothing about spain but the UK is the exception to all rules, particularly electricity wise. It evennused to have its own color coding and circuit design.
All the places I've lived in (UK) used a 32A 240V radial spur with a dedicated breaker with the appliance hardwired, or a regular wall socket on the kitchen ring main, 13A 240V, with a shared breaker (lower power portable appliance). Never seen 2-phase wiring for domestic use.
I thought, but I could be wrong, that UK cookers use a radial spur with a dedicated breaker, and that sometimes those breakers also include a standard regular wall socket, but this socket (and the cooker) are still on their own radial spur.
The cooker should never be connected to a normal kitchen ring main.
The cooker should never be connected to a normal kitchen ring main.
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/electrical-professio...
> Q1.18 Appendix 15 of BS 7671: 2008 gives advice on ring final circuits and sharing/spreading the load around the circuit. Item (iii) suggests that cookers, ovens and hobs over 2 kW should be on their own dedicated circuit. Why can’t ovens of less than 3 kW be connected to a ring final circuit via a suitable connection point such as a socket-outlet or fused connection unit?
> Appendix 15 is intended to give guidance only. Such connection is not prohibited, provided that no part of the ring final circuit will be overloaded as a result.
> Regulation number(s)
> 433.1.5
So, not forbidden, but if you have new wiring the electrician is going to give the cooker its own circuit.
> Q1.18 Appendix 15 of BS 7671: 2008 gives advice on ring final circuits and sharing/spreading the load around the circuit. Item (iii) suggests that cookers, ovens and hobs over 2 kW should be on their own dedicated circuit. Why can’t ovens of less than 3 kW be connected to a ring final circuit via a suitable connection point such as a socket-outlet or fused connection unit?
> Appendix 15 is intended to give guidance only. Such connection is not prohibited, provided that no part of the ring final circuit will be overloaded as a result.
> Regulation number(s)
> 433.1.5
So, not forbidden, but if you have new wiring the electrician is going to give the cooker its own circuit.
Just checked in my new-ish flat where I have an electric oven only (gas hob). It's a 13A square pin standard wall socket, but does have a dedicated breaker, so it is indeed not on the ring main for the other wall sockets. It has a 32A MCB in the consumer unit (same as on the two main rings). Not sure if it's ring or radial without removing the socket.
Maybe not in existing homes, but new Dutch homes are have 3 phase 25A meters.
Source?
http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/north-american-vers...
> Most European transformers are three-phase and on the order of 300 to 1000 kVA, much larger than typical North American 25- or 50-kVA single-phase units.
> Most European transformers are three-phase and on the order of 300 to 1000 kVA, much larger than typical North American 25- or 50-kVA single-phase units.
That's the network transformers. Homes usually get single-phase 230V, while larger users get three-phase 400V.
Electric stoves in Germany are usually hooked up to a special 3 phase wire in the kitchen, but thats the only exception in can think of, at least for apartments.
Oh, here in Italy we have only 3 kW power to each apartment, so gas stoves are prevalent.
That is absolutely not the case where I live (Austria). You get multiple phases into your home, at the very least to garage and kitchen.
Nope, most electrical cookers need 3-phase connection and those are used all around Europe.
bjelkeman-again is referring to kVA- a unit of power rather than voltage.
Systems which run a higher consumer voltage (e.g. 230V) will tend to use higher kVA transformers compared to the American system (~110V).
I believe this is because it is feasible to run longer cables when using higher voltage (higher voltage -> lower current -> lower thermal losses per metre of cable), hence it is economical to use fewer, larger transformers in a higher voltage system vs. a lower voltage system.
Systems which run a higher consumer voltage (e.g. 230V) will tend to use higher kVA transformers compared to the American system (~110V).
I believe this is because it is feasible to run longer cables when using higher voltage (higher voltage -> lower current -> lower thermal losses per metre of cable), hence it is economical to use fewer, larger transformers in a higher voltage system vs. a lower voltage system.
Sorry, my intent was to show three phase electricity to the home in most European countries.
And I was confused by living in one of the (apparently) few countries without three-phase electricity.
However, even here the network transformers do get three-phase.
However, even here the network transformers do get three-phase.
I'll recommend the hacker solution: first, buy and install your own meter, right after the power company one. It isn't expensive. Have it done by an electrician. I got mine installed in my fuse box, a small 3-phase DIN rail meter (I'm in Poland and pretty much all modern hookups are 3-phase).
This gives you a way to at least compare the official meter readings with an independent source. In my case, it showed no correlation whatsoever, and it turned out that the power company swapped the meter numbers between me and my neighbor.
Second, most meters have LEDs that flash a number of times per kWh consumed. It isn't difficult to build a device that measures the time between those pulses and gives you energy monitoring. I built one and had it running for a while. It's an eye-opening experience, you'd be surprised how much energy some devices consume, and also how significant a constant power draw can be.
This gives you a way to at least compare the official meter readings with an independent source. In my case, it showed no correlation whatsoever, and it turned out that the power company swapped the meter numbers between me and my neighbor.
Second, most meters have LEDs that flash a number of times per kWh consumed. It isn't difficult to build a device that measures the time between those pulses and gives you energy monitoring. I built one and had it running for a while. It's an eye-opening experience, you'd be surprised how much energy some devices consume, and also how significant a constant power draw can be.
In the US revenue meters are 1-2% accuracy (usually tested regularly), as such I recommend specifying a meter in that accuracy range for the anticipated amp readings
> In my case, it showed no correlation whatsoever, and it turned out that the power company swapped the meter numbers between me and my neighbor.
At which point, it's time to start a bitcoin mining operation!
At which point, it's time to start a bitcoin mining operation!
> most meters have LEDs that flash a number of times per kWh consumed.
Watch out though. My meter has an LED that flashes when there's almost nothing being used.
Watch out though. My meter has an LED that flashes when there's almost nothing being used.
OK so serious question -- utility companies tend to have high-accuracy, company-operated/maintained meters (that effectively measure the total use of a bunch of customers).
They're meant for like, identifying non-malicious/technical losses but it's possible to use them to identify customers who are bypassing/tampering with their meters, as:
total use (as measured by the trusted meter) must be equal to ∑ accuracy(customer ID) * reported use(customer ID)
and assuming there aren't many cheating customers, and enough measurements (smartmeters make this easier, 15 minute slices is a lot better than 1 or 2 month slices), and assuming enough variation/independence between customers, it shouldn't be that hard to estimate the accuracy of each reporting meter.
I'm wondering if this sort of balance check (i don't know the proper terminology, this isn't my field of expertise, if you know more, i would love to be corrected!) would have been sufficient to detect the sort of misreporting mentioned in this article.
Full text of the actual published article is here btw: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.sci-hub.bz/document/7866234/?relo...
They're meant for like, identifying non-malicious/technical losses but it's possible to use them to identify customers who are bypassing/tampering with their meters, as:
total use (as measured by the trusted meter) must be equal to ∑ accuracy(customer ID) * reported use(customer ID)
and assuming there aren't many cheating customers, and enough measurements (smartmeters make this easier, 15 minute slices is a lot better than 1 or 2 month slices), and assuming enough variation/independence between customers, it shouldn't be that hard to estimate the accuracy of each reporting meter.
I'm wondering if this sort of balance check (i don't know the proper terminology, this isn't my field of expertise, if you know more, i would love to be corrected!) would have been sufficient to detect the sort of misreporting mentioned in this article.
Full text of the actual published article is here btw: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.sci-hub.bz/document/7866234/?relo...
It really is a time issue more than anything. Electric utilities in the US have had monthly data from the revenue meters for a long time and the process of switching to having lots of information available is ongoing.
Data at the distribution circuit has been available for longer, but you have to have folks who know what to look for and the process to do it.
There are companies which are starting to offer analytic packages that make all of the above much easier.
Data at the distribution circuit has been available for longer, but you have to have folks who know what to look for and the process to do it.
There are companies which are starting to offer analytic packages that make all of the above much easier.
I imagine if anyone noticed it and saw it was in the favor of the company, they probably shrugged and said, "Heh, look at that. Let's keep it low priority, some intern will get to it at some point.."
Yep, surely they'd only have resources to deal with half of the problem - meters that undercharge.
Depends on the state utility commission.
In a place like South Carolina, they will chuckle. In other places, it's a big deal to resolve.
In a place like South Carolina, they will chuckle. In other places, it's a big deal to resolve.
I noticed my electric bill went up a bit when I was moved over to the electronic meter ... not so much that I thought anything of it other than that gee, I use a lot of power and now it seems like I'm using a little more.
The problem here is that the discrepancy is in the favor of the power company. As long as they're making more money and especially because the "Accredited Testing Agency"'s own tests won't detect the fault, it's unlikely anything will be done about it unless there's an obscene amount of media attention paid to it and the regulators step in requiring a correction.
... Though there is one way that might happen more quickly. I wonder if there's a converse effect? Are there methods for consuming electricity on these meters that they similarly fail with but woefully under report the amount of electricity being used? If something like that was discovered and publicized enough for people to take advantage of it, I'd imagine the problem would get fixed on the short order. I'm pretty weak on electrical engineering, so I'm really thinking of this from the perspective of "Hey, that same flaw that allows an attacker to exploit my phone also allows me to gain root and unlock it!"
The problem here is that the discrepancy is in the favor of the power company. As long as they're making more money and especially because the "Accredited Testing Agency"'s own tests won't detect the fault, it's unlikely anything will be done about it unless there's an obscene amount of media attention paid to it and the regulators step in requiring a correction.
... Though there is one way that might happen more quickly. I wonder if there's a converse effect? Are there methods for consuming electricity on these meters that they similarly fail with but woefully under report the amount of electricity being used? If something like that was discovered and publicized enough for people to take advantage of it, I'd imagine the problem would get fixed on the short order. I'm pretty weak on electrical engineering, so I'm really thinking of this from the perspective of "Hey, that same flaw that allows an attacker to exploit my phone also allows me to gain root and unlock it!"
> I wonder if there's a converse effect?
If the inaccuracies are due to the meter's assumption around the current waveform then there probably is a way to exploit that. I suspect (from the little I have read) that the meters in question are: 1) assuming a sinusoidal current wave form, 2) assuming that the peak observed current is the peak of that sinusoidal wave, 3) effectively integrating under the area of the curve (with respect to voltage) to estimate total power. If all that's true, then to 'cheat' you'd need a device for which the current waveform looks like a 'fat' sine wave - same peak height, but wider peaks and steeper gradient through zero. In the extreme case it would be a square wave, but that might have too much harmonics.
For example, you could create a heater (a simple resistive load) that alters its resistance at 60hz. When the voltage reaches its peak the heater would have its 'normal' resistance, and during the next 1/4 cycle it would ramp down its resistance, reaching a resistive low as the voltage passes through zero, and then ramp up its resistance for the following 1/4 cycle until it reaches its 'normal' resistance at the peak 'negative' voltage (1/2 a cycle from where we started), then repeat over.
I think that would trick a meter that only looked at peak current and assumed a sinusoidal waveform. But who knows what other things it might break...
If the inaccuracies are due to the meter's assumption around the current waveform then there probably is a way to exploit that. I suspect (from the little I have read) that the meters in question are: 1) assuming a sinusoidal current wave form, 2) assuming that the peak observed current is the peak of that sinusoidal wave, 3) effectively integrating under the area of the curve (with respect to voltage) to estimate total power. If all that's true, then to 'cheat' you'd need a device for which the current waveform looks like a 'fat' sine wave - same peak height, but wider peaks and steeper gradient through zero. In the extreme case it would be a square wave, but that might have too much harmonics.
For example, you could create a heater (a simple resistive load) that alters its resistance at 60hz. When the voltage reaches its peak the heater would have its 'normal' resistance, and during the next 1/4 cycle it would ramp down its resistance, reaching a resistive low as the voltage passes through zero, and then ramp up its resistance for the following 1/4 cycle until it reaches its 'normal' resistance at the peak 'negative' voltage (1/2 a cycle from where we started), then repeat over.
I think that would trick a meter that only looked at peak current and assumed a sinusoidal waveform. But who knows what other things it might break...
This is called phase shifting(1) adding a large enough inductor to all of your resistive loads will cause your power factor(2) to drop. Unfortunately for you the power company bills you for your apparent power useage which takes into account both the real and imaginary parts of your power consumption, it measures your shifted loads.
1. http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/ac_theory/ac_ccts_51.p... 2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
1. http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/ac_theory/ac_ccts_51.p... 2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Research the meter first.
I thought the same thing about my gas usage -- turns out the meter was actually running slow.
I thought the same thing about my gas usage -- turns out the meter was actually running slow.
A bit off topic but I once had a water meter that was overcharging by perhaps around 100%. I worked out that it was because it didn't have a one-way valve. When there was air trapped in the pipes, pressure fluctuations would cause water would move back and forth through the meter, racking up the bill with no net flow.
People should test their own meters which isn't that hard if you're careful and know the basic concepts of thermostats and power ratings.
People should test their own meters which isn't that hard if you're careful and know the basic concepts of thermostats and power ratings.
Interesting. I also had this happen, where the water company installed the wrong size meter for the size pipe in my unit.
Luckily it was a relatively small suburb, so the lady on the other end of the phone was able to give me her personal e-mail I could send a video to her of me test filling a gallon jug of milk while video taping the meter.
That got their attention finally, and I was being billed about 5x the real usage rate.
It was a fun one especially because I had moved into the apartment and immediately traveled for work at 80% time for 3 months. By the time I was home enough to notice the huge bills it took some convincing :)
Luckily it was a relatively small suburb, so the lady on the other end of the phone was able to give me her personal e-mail I could send a video to her of me test filling a gallon jug of milk while video taping the meter.
That got their attention finally, and I was being billed about 5x the real usage rate.
It was a fun one especially because I had moved into the apartment and immediately traveled for work at 80% time for 3 months. By the time I was home enough to notice the huge bills it took some convincing :)
Most cheap meters have a magnet and a reed-switch to generate pulses. As you noted they will generate pulses with backflow. However the dial count on the meter is correct.
Another issue that can come up is older reed switches can chatter as they close and open. Usually input debouncing eliminates that, if the firmware guy didn't screw it up.
Another thing I've seen is sometimes in a meter the magnet will rock back and forth. Careful design is needed to prevent that from causing the reed switch to open and close constantly. (Deboucing won't save you there)
Besides that another thing that happens is if utility selects the wrong scale factor for the meter. That's good for really angry customers if the error is in the utilities favor. If it's in the customers favor they get angry when the utility fixes it.
More sophisticated meters actually sense the actual meter reading using a bizarre electromagnetic sensing technique.
Another issue that can come up is older reed switches can chatter as they close and open. Usually input debouncing eliminates that, if the firmware guy didn't screw it up.
Another thing I've seen is sometimes in a meter the magnet will rock back and forth. Careful design is needed to prevent that from causing the reed switch to open and close constantly. (Deboucing won't save you there)
Besides that another thing that happens is if utility selects the wrong scale factor for the meter. That's good for really angry customers if the error is in the utilities favor. If it's in the customers favor they get angry when the utility fixes it.
More sophisticated meters actually sense the actual meter reading using a bizarre electromagnetic sensing technique.
Most installations of electronic meters have been done in the past two to three years. It's easy enough to see if readings skyrocketed after the installation (mine didn't).
(I'm presuming electronic == smart)
(I'm presuming electronic == smart)
I wish I could compare, but I moved into a (large) new home with a smart meter. I have no measurement that I can compare it to. On top of that, I just replaced all bulbs with LED, and wonder if that has been counterproductive.
If you have dimmers on those LEDs then you should check it out.
I've seen once little screw for bulbs it said on the box that it corrects wave so it's stable. It said that it extends life of bulbs. Not sure if it would help or not as the problem seems to be coming from appliances having chaotic usage wave patterns, but who knows maybe those work both ways, anybody knows?
I've seen once little screw for bulbs it said on the box that it corrects wave so it's stable. It said that it extends life of bulbs. Not sure if it would help or not as the problem seems to be coming from appliances having chaotic usage wave patterns, but who knows maybe those work both ways, anybody knows?
[deleted]
depending on how much money you want to spend, there are methods you can use to determine your usage.
The most expensive would of course be to put CT's on each circuit in the house.
Least expensive would be to source a meter for the main.
The most expensive would of course be to put CT's on each circuit in the house.
Least expensive would be to source a meter for the main.
I've heard of free energy scammers using this to trick people, you muck with the waveform so the meter reads wrong, and it looks like you have invented a box that saves energy.
I know that where I live, if the power factor is below .4, the meters can't accurately record the consumption. Kind of rare, but it does happen.
I feel like this could work really well if you just slap up some fake/broken solar panels on your roof that you got for dirt cheap
If a Rogowski Coil and Hall Effect sensors both give incorrect results - what did the researches use to measure the meters?
An oscilloscope.
An oscilloscope is the display.
I was asking what measures the current.
I was asking what measures the current.
A current shunt. There are modern energy monitoring ICs that sample voltage and current at high speed and accurately compute power and energy with switched reactive loads.
A current probe.
You might need more then one probe for instance you might have one current probe that was accurate at a lower current but could not measure the higher current, and a second probe for the high current. Then process the data using the appropriate instrument depending upon the current.
I haven't done much w/ AC power measurements, but it's a common enough problem (large dynamic current range) for DC power measurements. Agilent (now Keysight) make instruments like the N6705B DC Power Analyzer that can sample a pretty high rates (like 10's of uSeconds) and be accurate at both uA range and 100's of mAs for dynamic current. I would imagine you could rig up something similar for AC power measurements.
You might need more then one probe for instance you might have one current probe that was accurate at a lower current but could not measure the higher current, and a second probe for the high current. Then process the data using the appropriate instrument depending upon the current.
I haven't done much w/ AC power measurements, but it's a common enough problem (large dynamic current range) for DC power measurements. Agilent (now Keysight) make instruments like the N6705B DC Power Analyzer that can sample a pretty high rates (like 10's of uSeconds) and be accurate at both uA range and 100's of mAs for dynamic current. I would imagine you could rig up something similar for AC power measurements.
You may be interested in this earlier 2016 paper by the same authors:
http://doc.utwente.nl/102016/1/Runaway_energy_Meters.pdf
In this paper, it seems they were using an electromechanical meter (i.e. the analog style that predated digital) for reference because that's what consumers were using. This is measuring energy, obviously, not current.
http://doc.utwente.nl/102016/1/Runaway_energy_Meters.pdf
In this paper, it seems they were using an electromechanical meter (i.e. the analog style that predated digital) for reference because that's what consumers were using. This is measuring energy, obviously, not current.
per the article, a Dranetz Products made PowerXplorer PX5-400
http://www.dranetz.com/product-services/current-dranetz-prod...
here's the original paper http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.sci-hub.bz/document/7866234/?relo...
http://www.dranetz.com/product-services/current-dranetz-prod...
here's the original paper http://ieeexplore.ieee.org.sci-hub.bz/document/7866234/?relo...
The headline deviations are measured with respect to an eletromechanical meter (the kind that predated smart meters, described as a Ferraris principle meter).
The static meters' readings are compared against a conventional electromechanical meter.
From the paper:
The registered energy of the static meters was measured using an Arduino microprocessor and optical sensors for detecting the pulses from the LED on the static meter fronts. The readings were verified using the liquid crystal display (LCD) reading on the meter. For example, the LCD displayed 18 kWh, and the Arduino measured 17902 Wh, while on another meter the display showed 7.43 kWh, and the Arduino measured 7430 Wh. A conventional electromechanical meter based on the Ferraris principle was used as reference, because consumers are also using this as reference.
The registered energy of the static meters was measured using an Arduino microprocessor and optical sensors for detecting the pulses from the LED on the static meter fronts. The readings were verified using the liquid crystal display (LCD) reading on the meter. For example, the LCD displayed 18 kWh, and the Arduino measured 17902 Wh, while on another meter the display showed 7.43 kWh, and the Arduino measured 7430 Wh. A conventional electromechanical meter based on the Ferraris principle was used as reference, because consumers are also using this as reference.
I live in a newly renovated apartment with electric meters in Brooklyn and i have led lights and have experienced similar excesive charges... At one point my bill for my 1 bedroom apt was upwards of $300. Totally absurd.
Whatever meter you get installed, make sure they take the initial reading properly! Obvious for mechanic meters, but it turns out that some Electronic meters are like that too.
In the UK, about 6 or 7 years ago we bought an old house and upgraded the wiring, fuseboard, etc. The Electricity company came and replaced the old meter with a newer Electronic (but not Smart) meter.
Unfortunately the guy they sent to install it didn't record the initial readings. That meant that as far as the company was concerned it had been installed at zero, when in fact it was way past that.
We weren't able to move in immediately, and in the meantime there was very little electricity used - one electric heater on low, occasional lights on/off when we visited. That kind of thing. So you can imagine our horror when the first bill was for thousands of pounds.
Fortunately when we rang up to complain we got somebody at the call center who immediately realised what must have happened and sorted it out. We had to agree an estimated usage, and it's still possible we overpaid for what we actually used, but at least it wasn't thousands.
In the UK, about 6 or 7 years ago we bought an old house and upgraded the wiring, fuseboard, etc. The Electricity company came and replaced the old meter with a newer Electronic (but not Smart) meter.
Unfortunately the guy they sent to install it didn't record the initial readings. That meant that as far as the company was concerned it had been installed at zero, when in fact it was way past that.
We weren't able to move in immediately, and in the meantime there was very little electricity used - one electric heater on low, occasional lights on/off when we visited. That kind of thing. So you can imagine our horror when the first bill was for thousands of pounds.
Fortunately when we rang up to complain we got somebody at the call center who immediately realised what must have happened and sorted it out. We had to agree an estimated usage, and it's still possible we overpaid for what we actually used, but at least it wasn't thousands.
So this is why my electricity bill is so high
It's more probable that your bill is high because you haven't done a careful energy audit of your home and all of the devices in it, and one or more of them is malfunctioning or using more energy than you'd expect.
I took the time to do this, and found that my electric water heater consumes nearly half of the electricity in my home.
I took the time to do this, and found that my electric water heater consumes nearly half of the electricity in my home.
I'm curious how you did your energy audit and found the water heater was the culprit. Did you hire someone else, or do it yourself... if so, how?
Did it myself. I'm sure it wasn't precisely accurate, but, good enough: just go down to the breaker panel, switch off each circuit there, then turn on each circuit individually with its usual devices connected. In the case of appliances like the fridge, stove/oven, clothes dryer, run the device with a normal load. With the water heater, I just ran hot water until it kicked on.
Then observe change at meter, write it down, and do some math.
As an added benefit, I got to verify and one case relabel the circuits.
Then observe change at meter, write it down, and do some math.
As an added benefit, I got to verify and one case relabel the circuits.
> I took the time to do this, and found that my electric water heater consumes nearly half of the electricity in my home.
Oh man, do I know this feeling. My old duplex I moved out of last year had an electric water heater from 1991, it easily ate up 1/3 of our electric usage every month. New house has a gas water heater, during the summer months our gas water heater results in a $20 gas bill (roughly $10 of that is the connection and other assorted fees).
Old water heaters, especially electric ones can really suck energy like nothing else. My summer electric bill at the new house is still roughly $30/mo cheaper and I'm running like 500W of gear 24/7 in my office/lab that wasn't at the old place.
Oh man, do I know this feeling. My old duplex I moved out of last year had an electric water heater from 1991, it easily ate up 1/3 of our electric usage every month. New house has a gas water heater, during the summer months our gas water heater results in a $20 gas bill (roughly $10 of that is the connection and other assorted fees).
Old water heaters, especially electric ones can really suck energy like nothing else. My summer electric bill at the new house is still roughly $30/mo cheaper and I'm running like 500W of gear 24/7 in my office/lab that wasn't at the old place.
Same here. We switched over from an electric water heater to a gas one, and it was such a difference on our power bill that it paid for itself in less than a year. Even with running folding@home, BOINC, etc on all of my home machines, our bill is still less. Electric water heaters are expensive!
As an added bonus the heat coming out of the hot water heater might be inside the home where it has to be removed via AC meaning that not only is that heat being wasted instead of providing hot water, it's also increasing your AC usage and wasting even more power.
It's likely that the cost savings was just due to the fact that natural gas is so much cheaper than electricity, unit for unit.
It would be in consumers' best interest to be able to access meter readings with at least hourly granularity, just like wireless carriers provide call logs with up-to-the-minute accuracy.
This way one can detect anomalies in resource usage based on raw data, unless the error is constant.
This way one can detect anomalies in resource usage based on raw data, unless the error is constant.
Funny you should mention this. I just set this up myself... I have a meter measurement about every 30 seconds, which it gets plotted into a cool web graph that shows usage as well as consumption spikes and I can set alerts and such. Pretty cool.
For anyone who's curious, here's the hardware:
1. A "smart meter" outside the house (set up by the power company) 2. A raspberry pi 3 (w/power cable/sdcard) 3. NooElec NESDR Mini 2+ software defined radio http://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr-mini-2-... This comes with an antenna as well.
And here's the software:
* Ubuntu Mate on the rpi3 (you can also use raspbian or whatever) * rtlamr to take readings from the meter (https://github.com/bemasher/rtlamr -- this is awesome and worked on the first try after I installed golang and ran "go get github.com/bemasher/rtlamr") * rtl-tcp (a dependency of the above that is automatically installed if I remember correctly.) * openhab2 open source home automation sw (optional) * influxdb open source time series database * grafana graphing software
Once I plugged the USB NooElectric SDR, I was able to grab my meter's reading with a little python3 script. The test code I'm using looks something like:
I wanted to be able to visualize trends (like the rate of consumption when I turned on the heat) using a nifty chart, so I published from python (via the paho library-- https://pypi.python.org/pypi/paho-mqtt ) to a local mqtt server (mosquitto running on the pi) though I also tried sending to a mqtt feed at io.adafruit.com, which does a neat graph on its dashboard... until I overwhelmed its quota with too-frequent updates. I wanted something faster where I didn't have to worry about any throttling.
So I decided to do it all locally. First, I set up openhab2 (http://docs.openhab.org/) which has an add-on to to automatically read the mqtt feed, then inserted the measurements to a database on a local influxdb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfluxDB) server also on the pi which keeps a real-time history (aka "persistence") of my electric usage over time. (I could have also just inserted to the influxdb directly from my python3 script, but I'm playing with openhab2 for other things so had it do it for me...)
Finally, I connected grafana (http://grafana.org/) to the influxdb database. Now I have gorgeous real-time graphs and an amazing interactive web-UI that lets me zoom in and set alerts and such.
It sounds like a lot of steps to get to the graph, and once you have the actual measurement, you have choices on how to visualize it-- you could have python send the readings to a Google Sheets spreadsheet and graph from there, for example. or do updates to adafruit less frequently to not blow through the quota. Or use openhab2's which includes its own charts.
But grafana's visualizations are just the coolest. See http://play.grafana.org for an idea of what you can do...
Anyway, long drawn out answer, but the point is-- assuming you have a smart electric meter that work with rtlamr, you can do this yourself :)
For anyone who's curious, here's the hardware:
1. A "smart meter" outside the house (set up by the power company) 2. A raspberry pi 3 (w/power cable/sdcard) 3. NooElec NESDR Mini 2+ software defined radio http://www.nooelec.com/store/sdr/sdr-receivers/nesdr-mini-2-... This comes with an antenna as well.
And here's the software:
* Ubuntu Mate on the rpi3 (you can also use raspbian or whatever) * rtlamr to take readings from the meter (https://github.com/bemasher/rtlamr -- this is awesome and worked on the first try after I installed golang and ran "go get github.com/bemasher/rtlamr") * rtl-tcp (a dependency of the above that is automatically installed if I remember correctly.) * openhab2 open source home automation sw (optional) * influxdb open source time series database * grafana graphing software
Once I plugged the USB NooElectric SDR, I was able to grab my meter's reading with a little python3 script. The test code I'm using looks something like:
completed = subprocess.run(['/home/myaccount/go/bin/rtlamr', '-filterid=1234567', '-single=true', '-format=json'],
stdout=subprocess.PIPE, stderr=subprocess.DEVNULL)
data=json.loads(completed.stdout.decode("utf-8"))
reading = data['Message']['Consumption']
I wanted to be able to visualize trends (like the rate of consumption when I turned on the heat) using a nifty chart, so I published from python (via the paho library-- https://pypi.python.org/pypi/paho-mqtt ) to a local mqtt server (mosquitto running on the pi) though I also tried sending to a mqtt feed at io.adafruit.com, which does a neat graph on its dashboard... until I overwhelmed its quota with too-frequent updates. I wanted something faster where I didn't have to worry about any throttling.
So I decided to do it all locally. First, I set up openhab2 (http://docs.openhab.org/) which has an add-on to to automatically read the mqtt feed, then inserted the measurements to a database on a local influxdb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfluxDB) server also on the pi which keeps a real-time history (aka "persistence") of my electric usage over time. (I could have also just inserted to the influxdb directly from my python3 script, but I'm playing with openhab2 for other things so had it do it for me...)
Finally, I connected grafana (http://grafana.org/) to the influxdb database. Now I have gorgeous real-time graphs and an amazing interactive web-UI that lets me zoom in and set alerts and such.
It sounds like a lot of steps to get to the graph, and once you have the actual measurement, you have choices on how to visualize it-- you could have python send the readings to a Google Sheets spreadsheet and graph from there, for example. or do updates to adafruit less frequently to not blow through the quota. Or use openhab2's which includes its own charts.
But grafana's visualizations are just the coolest. See http://play.grafana.org for an idea of what you can do...
Anyway, long drawn out answer, but the point is-- assuming you have a smart electric meter that work with rtlamr, you can do this yourself :)
wow, this post inspired me to look at that SDR, and I had no idea SDR had gotten so cheap. Last time I looked was a couple years ago, and anything halfway decent was 100+. Suffice it to say, I just ordered one, and I'm going to look at building a similar setup, though as I'm rather familiar with Go, probably as a single binary that does recording and web display as a single thing.
Yeah you don't need all the levels that I used :) I've been playing around to figure the best way to do it and integrate it with everything else, so I figured I'd list everything I've tried in case someone wants to play with them.
Update: Just found this at the top of the discussion at http://bemasher.net/rtlamr/ -- which I actually should probably sit down and read at some point :)
https://gist.github.com/bemasher/7af275c3d2fd3f02933e7990e8e...
Update: Just found this at the top of the discussion at http://bemasher.net/rtlamr/ -- which I actually should probably sit down and read at some point :)
https://gist.github.com/bemasher/7af275c3d2fd3f02933e7990e8e...
I just wrote up https://gist.github.com/andyleap/01601cc9cdf7d3708bb63d5867a... real quick, uses the rtlamr stuff directly and turns around and spits them into a local influxdb instance. It's been working out fairly well so far! I'd still like to make it more "all in one" down the road, but influxdb + grafana is a good start for the display side of things.
That's pretty cool!
Can rtlamr send text over TCP to a remote data collection server? I think they call it a 'receiver'.
Looks like different formats are supported, e.g. plain and csv, so it's a pretty open setup. With that in mind, what's the added value of mqtt in your reference configuration?
Can rtlamr send text over TCP to a remote data collection server? I think they call it a 'receiver'.
Looks like different formats are supported, e.g. plain and csv, so it's a pretty open setup. With that in mind, what's the added value of mqtt in your reference configuration?
Well, when I was using adafruit's mqtt server it gave me quick real-time access to the data on the web with its dashboard graphing stuff. Ie, doing the hard work for me. It's not really necessary to do it this way, you could go straight to influxdb or whatever, but I'm using mqtt for other things w/openhab, so... you could easily skip using mqtt if you wanted to simplify things.
I work for an energy company and we are working on providing this level of data to our customers at the moment. I think we are even looking at live usage measurement.
For what it's worth, I was really pleased with San Diego gas and electric, who do indeed provide this. I like saving energy, for both economic and environmental reasons, and was pleased to be able to see things like the drop from switching one bulb from incandescent to LED. In the winter my 2 bed apartment's average usage was under 100 watts. People were stunned that our bills would be on the order of $9-$15 a month.
In the summers we had a window AC, but even that only pushed it to $40-$50 a month.
In the summers we had a window AC, but even that only pushed it to $40-$50 a month.
Coincidentally this appeared on BBC news today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39169313
Take home message from this thread seems to be never to trust your utility company to charge you fairly. But the alternative seems to be to figure out the problem yourself (or hire someone to do so), saving the company money on what should be its own expenses.
I got a $400 gas bill yesterday that needs investigating and I have little knowhow or time to do so...
I got a $400 gas bill yesterday that needs investigating and I have little knowhow or time to do so...
http://www.securemeters.com/index.php/global/ were selling high quality elecronic meters for many years
If waveform can cause the meter to read high usage... One could make something to correct it, and with that capability one could push power back to the grid with a distorted waveform at a higher rate ;-)
somewhat related, cant comment on cost yet, but house has code-std lighted stairwell switches; when used with fluor. bulb noticed in dark it flickered continuously. appears that neons in switch leak current through bulb all the time, but not enough to start up. a lot of power? yet to be determined, but neons are dead short and fluor. bulb startup is high current so probably high leakage all the time and odd waveform presented to meter.
So how would anyone know if their meter was broken?
Probably only if you were the homeowner when the smart meter was installed, or if you're very dedicated, you could monitor energy usage at every electricity socket. (I did this for our largest appliances, to find out what used the most).
#wattvision
It should be called the Dumb Mater.
A SilverSpring Networks meter were installed on our house in N. Cal around 2011.
Perhaps there should be some certification requirements like scales for trade?
Perhaps there should be some certification requirements like scales for trade?
There certainly are certifications. But the official test doesn't pick out this problem, as mentioned in the article.
As much as I wanted to fight, as sad as it sounds my time was worth more than the money I'd get back by spending time on the phone arguing and escalating the issue at critical hours of the day. :-/
Moved to California, paying a much more reasonable utility bill, and glad I didn't have to deal with that again.
If there were a "deal-with-humans-as-a-service" business that took a 20% cut of any money I could get back in situations like this, I'd totally pay for it. I once had to argue for 2 hours on the phone with T-mobile about $250 in excess charges on my phone bill, and while got it all back after escalating it to a manager, I'd totally pay $50 for someone to deal with the 2 hours of phone calls for me.