Teenagers are growing more anxious and depressed(economist.com)
economist.com
Teenagers are growing more anxious and depressed
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21731693-could-they-hold-culprit-their-hands-teenagers-are-growing-more-anxious-and
229 comments
I think more dangerous than social media is the omnipresence of image recording devices. When I made a mistake as a teenager, people might laugh at me for a day or two, sooner or later it was forgotten. Today's teenager make a mistake and if they are unlucky, their shame gets immediately exposed to the whole world, forever.
I think this has to contribute a lot to today's anxiousness of teenagers - who hasn't been caught yet, should feel in constant danger. I would be anxious about this if i was a teenager today.
My kid is one and a half right now, in a few years I will have to explain him how important it is not to get taped doing stupid things...
I think this has to contribute a lot to today's anxiousness of teenagers - who hasn't been caught yet, should feel in constant danger. I would be anxious about this if i was a teenager today.
My kid is one and a half right now, in a few years I will have to explain him how important it is not to get taped doing stupid things...
> I think more dangerous than social media is the omnipresence of image recording devices. When I made a mistake as a teenager, people might laugh at me for a day or two, sooner or later it was forgotten. Today's teenager make a mistake and if they are unlucky, their shame gets immediately exposed to the whole world, forever.
This in itself isn't the problem. We all have done stupid shit that we are embarrassed by. The real problem is that, for some reason, we never forgive anyone for their mistakes.
This in itself isn't the problem. We all have done stupid shit that we are embarrassed by. The real problem is that, for some reason, we never forgive anyone for their mistakes.
Social media is part of the equation for exposing the recordings though. If someone posts an embarrassing video of you, it won’t really affect you unless/until it goes viral to the point that the people in your social group, in real life or online, are aware of it.
Without image recording devices it would still be possible to share embarrassing text conversations and stories, but they don’t have the same shaming power as video. And without social media, embarrassing videos would mostly languish on some GeoCities backwater. It is the confluence of the two that creates the current situation.
Without image recording devices it would still be possible to share embarrassing text conversations and stories, but they don’t have the same shaming power as video. And without social media, embarrassing videos would mostly languish on some GeoCities backwater. It is the confluence of the two that creates the current situation.
Hopefully “don’t take pictures/videos of your peers/friends without their (implied) permission” becomes a more widely distributed social more for the next generation. Can’t believe it isn’t already.
Why would any teenager pass up the opportunity to post a video that will garner lots of attention?
Maybe because he/she isn't a dick? :)
This is important. Even though it was still possible to do that, I heard a girl was borderline abused and guys (HS) taped it on VHS. Girl's life was destroyed overnight.
This is an extreme case but otherwise I agree, long lasting traces are really to be avoided if it removes innocence and joy in kids.
This is an extreme case but otherwise I agree, long lasting traces are really to be avoided if it removes innocence and joy in kids.
> We treat them as adults in school (by making them responsible for their own performance through grading and measuring) from a very young age
Really? I feel like even in college students don't always feel like they are responsible for their own performance & grades (and an honest one at that). Look at all the cheating and grade inflation and grading complaints (even by parents!!) that have gone towards becoming the norm over the last decade or two in college. In the adult world it's not like your mom can call your boss and complain about the fact that you got a bad review or something (at least not successfully...). It's not like it always used to be like this in school either. Kids are honestly just not maturing into adults as they used to, whether it their own fault, or their parents', or social media's, or the government's, or anyone else's.
Really? I feel like even in college students don't always feel like they are responsible for their own performance & grades (and an honest one at that). Look at all the cheating and grade inflation and grading complaints (even by parents!!) that have gone towards becoming the norm over the last decade or two in college. In the adult world it's not like your mom can call your boss and complain about the fact that you got a bad review or something (at least not successfully...). It's not like it always used to be like this in school either. Kids are honestly just not maturing into adults as they used to, whether it their own fault, or their parents', or social media's, or the government's, or anyone else's.
Julie Lythcott-Haims was a former Stanford Dean responsible for incoming freshmen students. From that position she likely collected many more data points than any of us on this topic, which led her to write a book called How to Raise an Adult: Break Free of the Overparenting Trap and Prepare Your Kids for Success [0]. I have not read the book but heard her on a podcast a few years back.
This article has some key points in it that address the comments in this thread [1].
Excerpt:
"Working with the quote-unquote best and brightest, I was seeing more and more [students] who seemed less and less capable of doing the stuff of life. They were incredibly accomplished in the transcript and GPA sense but less with their own selves, evidenced by how frequently they communicated with a parent, texting multiple times a day, needing a parent to tell them what to do."
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OO2LJS2/ref=as_li_tl?ie...
[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-murphy-jr/want-to-raise-...?
This article has some key points in it that address the comments in this thread [1].
Excerpt:
"Working with the quote-unquote best and brightest, I was seeing more and more [students] who seemed less and less capable of doing the stuff of life. They were incredibly accomplished in the transcript and GPA sense but less with their own selves, evidenced by how frequently they communicated with a parent, texting multiple times a day, needing a parent to tell them what to do."
[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OO2LJS2/ref=as_li_tl?ie...
[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-murphy-jr/want-to-raise-...?
I'll have to read this too, but I often think that the trend for society to push all kids into long studies delayed some internal adulthood passage. We're somehow kids up until 23 now, where as our parents were ready to roll around 16. And I think it has consequences for your development, your friendships, your potential family and also your actual one (people had kids a bit younger, meaning grand parents would be younger to take care of grand kids, a different family tissue)
You forgot the part of the quote that agrees with what you're talking about:
> yet we don't really cut the umbelical cord (grant them autonomy) until they're in their twenties
The problem pointed by GP is that kids are expected to behave responsibly at school (as if it were work), but parents are not giving them enough autonomy in life. Most of them never "become responsible", because they're taught from early age that they shouldn't (and that feeling is reinforced later, when parents call colleges, and the things you talk about). There's a lot of cognitive dissonance there.
> yet we don't really cut the umbelical cord (grant them autonomy) until they're in their twenties
The problem pointed by GP is that kids are expected to behave responsibly at school (as if it were work), but parents are not giving them enough autonomy in life. Most of them never "become responsible", because they're taught from early age that they shouldn't (and that feeling is reinforced later, when parents call colleges, and the things you talk about). There's a lot of cognitive dissonance there.
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> In the adult world it's not like your mom can call your boss and complain about the fact that you got a bad review or something (at least not successfully...).
Don't be so sure about that. Parents are starting to talk to university professors on behalf of their adult children.
Don't be so sure about that. Parents are starting to talk to university professors on behalf of their adult children.
That was the point they were making
Yeah. At universities the parents are the customers so of course they're going to be the ones complaining. There's no risk of this happening at work because nobody is paying to be there.
If your parent calls your boss they can threaten to fire you and there's nothing mom or dad can do about it.
If your parent calls your boss they can threaten to fire you and there's nothing mom or dad can do about it.
I've heard a few stories of parents taking the same behavior to the workplace, but so far I've chosen to believe they're urban legend as I don't want to live in a world where those stories are true.
>We treat them as adults in school (by making them responsible for their own performance through grading and measuring) from a very young age, yet we don't really cut the umbelical cord (grant them autonomy) until they're in their twenties.
It's inflation, pure and simple. (Alternately, any forced work without reward is called "slavery", and since it's [biologically speaking] totally fine to make slaves of the disenfranchised, that's why we're OK with doing it to children and low-status adults.)
You can't afford autonomy until you're in your mid-twenties even if you actually want it; good jobs for high school students stopped being a thing coincident with the decline of North American manufacturing (both the US and Canada have this problem; Europe's solution is to make everything free but this doesn't solve the motivation problem).
So one of two things have to happen. Either the education bubble gets popped by some external force (maybe you have to justify spending on a degree to get a loan, or we just ban employers from asking about certifications other than 'has completed Grade 10' unless the job actually requires specialized training, or we start training individuals for trade work much earlier than we do now), or the economy undergoes a rapid expansion (typically a war).
Either of those things will go a long way to fixing society's social media problem: once you have a shortage of manpower, the power of society/employers shrinks and stupid videos captured of you have much less an effect when you are less replaceable. Social authoritarianism always coincides with economic decline- you don't get to infantilize an adult and assume it'll have no effect on their children.
It's inflation, pure and simple. (Alternately, any forced work without reward is called "slavery", and since it's [biologically speaking] totally fine to make slaves of the disenfranchised, that's why we're OK with doing it to children and low-status adults.)
You can't afford autonomy until you're in your mid-twenties even if you actually want it; good jobs for high school students stopped being a thing coincident with the decline of North American manufacturing (both the US and Canada have this problem; Europe's solution is to make everything free but this doesn't solve the motivation problem).
So one of two things have to happen. Either the education bubble gets popped by some external force (maybe you have to justify spending on a degree to get a loan, or we just ban employers from asking about certifications other than 'has completed Grade 10' unless the job actually requires specialized training, or we start training individuals for trade work much earlier than we do now), or the economy undergoes a rapid expansion (typically a war).
Either of those things will go a long way to fixing society's social media problem: once you have a shortage of manpower, the power of society/employers shrinks and stupid videos captured of you have much less an effect when you are less replaceable. Social authoritarianism always coincides with economic decline- you don't get to infantilize an adult and assume it'll have no effect on their children.
More trade work, war, education crash, hiring reform... All good means, but what is the end? Lower unemployment? I'll take it, but I'm talking about something slightly different: Happy children (and people in general).
If people are thriving they will be more productive, more receptive and more motivated. This is not controversial and by now well established in business practice, but it's pretty far down the list of what we endow our children and students. Of course the dean will say all these things, but they're platitudes and the money says otherwise. It's just not a priority.
If people are thriving they will be more productive, more receptive and more motivated. This is not controversial and by now well established in business practice, but it's pretty far down the list of what we endow our children and students. Of course the dean will say all these things, but they're platitudes and the money says otherwise. It's just not a priority.
This is a tough problem. I'm a parent, and the "do I meddle in this?" issue is probably what I think about most.
With most tricky parenting issues, the answer is probably that you're on the right track if you're even thinking about it and asking the question
With most tricky parenting issues, the answer is probably that you're on the right track if you're even thinking about it and asking the question
I'm a parent too. We get a lot of contradictory messages thrown at us. We're repeatedly told that we shouldn't over-parent, but is that just a middle class myth? Rich parents meddle extensively, not just in school, but in their kids' personal lives and careers, well into adulthood.
We can't afford to follow middle class myths any more, because the middle class is vanishing.
We can't afford to follow middle class myths any more, because the middle class is vanishing.
i think it depends on what you mean by "meddle". you can find helicopter parents in all walks of life (although near the bottom end you may find that some parents simply dont have the time to be this overbearing), but there are good and bad ways to be involved.
bad: johnny complains that he got a 'C' on his freshman writing seminar term paper, so you go to the professor to argue his case for him. johnny is stressed out because he is finding it hard to concentrate on school and find an apartment for next semester at the same time, so you take over the apartment hunt for him.
good: johnny needs to find a job, so you capitalize on your extensive network of successful friends and colleagues to put him in contact with people who might give him an interview. once he gets the interview, it's on him to prove his worth. or, johnny just transferred to a new school and his transfer credits are not immediately accepted so he cant register for any useful classes that semester. the counseling people tell him it will take a few weeks to evaluate his transcript and registration will be closed by then, so he may as well give up and start planning for next semester. luckily you happen to know the dean, and the process is expedited so johnny can actually make some progress that semester.
the key is to distinguish between important challenges that the kid can figure out themselves (with some work) and structural obstacles that are simply insurmountable without the application parent's resources/experience. helping excessively with the first will result in you raising a manchild. helping with the second can actually give your kid a time advantage over their peers that doesn't hamstring their development.
bad: johnny complains that he got a 'C' on his freshman writing seminar term paper, so you go to the professor to argue his case for him. johnny is stressed out because he is finding it hard to concentrate on school and find an apartment for next semester at the same time, so you take over the apartment hunt for him.
good: johnny needs to find a job, so you capitalize on your extensive network of successful friends and colleagues to put him in contact with people who might give him an interview. once he gets the interview, it's on him to prove his worth. or, johnny just transferred to a new school and his transfer credits are not immediately accepted so he cant register for any useful classes that semester. the counseling people tell him it will take a few weeks to evaluate his transcript and registration will be closed by then, so he may as well give up and start planning for next semester. luckily you happen to know the dean, and the process is expedited so johnny can actually make some progress that semester.
the key is to distinguish between important challenges that the kid can figure out themselves (with some work) and structural obstacles that are simply insurmountable without the application parent's resources/experience. helping excessively with the first will result in you raising a manchild. helping with the second can actually give your kid a time advantage over their peers that doesn't hamstring their development.
Good points. The second can also give a kid more than one chance at life. For instance if a kid from a wealthy family gets arrested, his parents will provide aggressive legal defense, and the police may even know this and let him off the hook in the first place. Likewise if the kid tries a business idea and goes bankrupt, the parents will bail him out. One of the things that encourages people to become entrepreneurs is knowing that they have a financial safety net so they don't have to worry about their own basic survival.
> Did this trend start with social media
I don't think so. I think it started when there are more free stuff to consume than the time we have to cobsume it. In a way it is connected con consumerism but when the products are free.
I don't think so. I think it started when there are more free stuff to consume than the time we have to cobsume it. In a way it is connected con consumerism but when the products are free.
If you take a train or a bus, or are in any other public space, you may notice that a bunch of people (young and old) spend their time staring into their phones. And most of the time, if you glance at their phone, you'll see they're on Instagram. They're staring into this machine fantasizing about some image of how great life is, meanwhile their real life is passing them by. And they wonder why they're not getting all the likes.
As the current president would say, SAD.
As the current president would say, SAD.
As a teen, I'm not sure if this is the right place for me to speak but I wanted to offer a few things to the discussion. Social media is key aspect to the entire situation and is definitely true for me and all my peers. Like someone else stated in the comments, I feel as if it's a side effect to loneliness in our time however that's not entirely true. Teens are still very social, maybe as a social as ever compared to in the past. They actively searching friends and what to talk face to face. But I feel as if the do existence of social media is hindering theses interactions for for some it's a simple escape that is a simpler option than actively seeking friendships.
One more note. I find it a bit disturbing that among my peers this is not really a discussed or considered social issue. A lot for teens just accept it as it it without any realization. It would nice to see my peers accept a different attitude to social media. Not necessarily shunning it completely but at least having a realistic understanding of the role it can play on their lives.
One more note. I find it a bit disturbing that among my peers this is not really a discussed or considered social issue. A lot for teens just accept it as it it without any realization. It would nice to see my peers accept a different attitude to social media. Not necessarily shunning it completely but at least having a realistic understanding of the role it can play on their lives.
Back in the day commuters and bench-sitters weren't somehow more "present" than they are now, they were just consuming other media. And I wouldn't venerate the books/newspapers of old and sneer at IG quite so much. Back in the day the majority of commuters were reading pulpy crime and romance novels or sordid tabloids, not "real" literature or journalism.
It's not that IG is intellectually inferior to how people entertained themselves back in the day, it's that it's qualitatively different, in some disturbing ways. What used to be shameless (innocent!) diversion and escapism has morphed into an odd kind of media that requires everyone to produce content, content that everyone knows in their bones, one way or another, broadcasts the quality of their lives and their person into the ether. Creating such content is arguably more intellectually demanding than consuming that crime novel, not less, but it's also exhausting and anxiety producing. The commute or checkout line is no longer a quick and simple respite.
I don't think social media is making people dumb or brainless as people thought tv would back in the day. Rather, it's making the average person smarter in a very 21st century kind of way - savvy, harried, and insecure - overworked brand managers.
It's not that IG is intellectually inferior to how people entertained themselves back in the day, it's that it's qualitatively different, in some disturbing ways. What used to be shameless (innocent!) diversion and escapism has morphed into an odd kind of media that requires everyone to produce content, content that everyone knows in their bones, one way or another, broadcasts the quality of their lives and their person into the ether. Creating such content is arguably more intellectually demanding than consuming that crime novel, not less, but it's also exhausting and anxiety producing. The commute or checkout line is no longer a quick and simple respite.
I don't think social media is making people dumb or brainless as people thought tv would back in the day. Rather, it's making the average person smarter in a very 21st century kind of way - savvy, harried, and insecure - overworked brand managers.
And they should be sitting on the train staring at other people? How is that better? They are actually communicating with tens of people while they have to sit in that train. Yes, someone look at instagram, someone just browsing internet or using chat or reading books etc. Smartphones didn't make people antisocial they just channel their attention where they like.
You realize back in the older days people did the exact same thing with books and newspapers? At least with phones we can talk with people we’re meeting up with.
People also thought the same thing with television, and they were largely right about television. They were also right about some forms of print media: next time you go to the grocery store, look at the celebrity gossip magazines in the checkout line. They're basically Instagram for older people. They certainly take advantage of the same human impulse to avarice and escapism.
The internet is an amazing tool to connect with people. It's also an tool for marketers and corporations to mediate friendships, romantic relationships, and consumption of media in ways that are far more effective and inescapable than anything that came before it.
The internet is an amazing tool to connect with people. It's also an tool for marketers and corporations to mediate friendships, romantic relationships, and consumption of media in ways that are far more effective and inescapable than anything that came before it.
It's slightly different, because at least things like books and newspapers carry a tiny bit of intellectualism. You at least need to be able to read and comprehend language. IG, on the other hand, is literally just pictures: you don't even need to be able to comprehend any language to use it.
And I disagree that everyone you see with a phone is guaranteed to be doing things on IG. For example I am on HN, a friend of mine reads fanfiction, others message their friends about their eta, catch up on Facebook, etc.
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How about movies and television, then? You don't need to be able to read to enjoy those, and they've been significantly vilified as well.
It seems like you think art has no "intellectualism". IG is a great way to see contemporary fashion and art around the world in real time.
Pictures of food, dogs, and people lounging on some old guy's yacht who they met through tinder doesn't really count as intellectual art.
Also merely photographing someone else's art doesn't quite count as being an artist. That's just cheap mimicry.
Also merely photographing someone else's art doesn't quite count as being an artist. That's just cheap mimicry.
Back at the time when people read books and journals, they read junk books (dime novels) and junk journals mostly. And a lot of socializing was drinking beer and having empty talk about football and that girl.
I really hope you are kidding.
Books and newspapers have the power to enrich the mind with knowledge. Writing a book requires dedication and thought out arguments.
Apps are designed to get you hooked on rewards. Twitter allows people to communicate with each others, but if its just garbage coming out, then it does more harm than good. Look at the president.
Books are like fruits and vegetables. Apps are sugary drinks.
Books and newspapers have the power to enrich the mind with knowledge. Writing a book requires dedication and thought out arguments.
Apps are designed to get you hooked on rewards. Twitter allows people to communicate with each others, but if its just garbage coming out, then it does more harm than good. Look at the president.
Books are like fruits and vegetables. Apps are sugary drinks.
> Books are like fruits and vegetables.
You may have an idealized notion of books.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_magazine
There are literally tons of junk books out there.
You may have an idealized notion of books.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_magazine
There are literally tons of junk books out there.
Not to mention tabloid newspapers.
Except back when books were popular to use like phones they were described as mind numbing and anti-intellectual entertainment for kids who are losing touch with the reality around them for the fantasy in books. We’re just switching tHe technology we’re blaming for the ills of the current day.
> I see you are unfamiliar with the Daily Mail
Or tabloid magazines which is like Instagram..
Your comment is a bit melodramatic. What magic is passing someone by sitting on a crowded bus/train on a commute to work?
I mean if you're using your phone during a dinner with loved ones or friends, that's something else. But commutes are pretty universally despised.
I mean if you're using your phone during a dinner with loved ones or friends, that's something else. But commutes are pretty universally despised.
This is purely speculation. I feel it's more the economic uncertainty, political situation, and questionable futures.
It's just another outlet like newspapers or books. It's not like everyone on the coach bursts into laughter/jokes/small-talk or chops veggies on the way home.
Although it would suck if they did the same thing at home.
Although it would suck if they did the same thing at home.
Or, perhaps they are being inspired. Planning their own art or adventure. If you're sitting on a train, why not? (Is reading a book equally objectionable, or is going to a museum?) It's rather offensive to judge people about whom you know nothing. (As is quoting President Trump as if he is an authority on anything.)
As this is n = 1, take this with a grain of salt, but as a high school teacher I can tell you that's definitely not what teenagers are doing with their phones the majority of the time. Your view is very optimistic; for the most part, kids are sending each other snaps and checking IG for high school drama, fashion, make up, gossip, memes, and those fitness inspo pics. That last observation comes from the fact that apart from teaching math, I occasionally teach a fitness class and get kids showing me these ridiculously fit (usually not natural) people pics on IG. They also really like YouTube.
That may be what most of your students are doing, but does not preclude the fact that there are ways to use social media (including Instagram) effectively, and that there are certainly people who are doing this.
Yes, agreed. But what I'm saying is that, I don't believe the average teenager uses social media in a "healthy" nor "educational" type of way.
At the risk of generalizing from anecdotal evidence - Instagram seems to be the worst by far for this kind of thing.
All images, little content and no good way to really communicate. The heavy users I’ve known just endlessly scroll through images of attractive ‘influencers’, dogs, makeup ads, or just photos posted by friends (mostly using it to show off as mentioned in the article).
While Facebook will have discussion and links to interesting articles depending on your network, Instagram doesn’t seem to have much of that.
I have a bias though because out of all the social apps I find it to be incredibly banal and boring.
All images, little content and no good way to really communicate. The heavy users I’ve known just endlessly scroll through images of attractive ‘influencers’, dogs, makeup ads, or just photos posted by friends (mostly using it to show off as mentioned in the article).
While Facebook will have discussion and links to interesting articles depending on your network, Instagram doesn’t seem to have much of that.
I have a bias though because out of all the social apps I find it to be incredibly banal and boring.
Do you actually use Instagram yourself? From my anecdotal evidence - IG is the greatest source of new friends (do you know how hard to get a friend when you are an adult? It's easy with IG). Most communication happens in private messages, so you don't see it.
How is it a source of new friends?
It's acceptable and encouraged to follow unknown people on IG. I follow people with hobbies I like, some of them become friends due to interaction. Unfortunately this works only for hobbies that can be fit in a photo, I'd like to have a more generalized platform (anyone remembers Livejournal? :)
If you read comments here, you will find a few people who lost their significant others, because they got too many friends from Instagram and irreversibly changed!
If you read comments here, you will find a few people who lost their significant others, because they got too many friends from Instagram and irreversibly changed!
Agreed. Why not indeed.
And people are doing different activities on their phone including games and reading news or whatever they want.
It's a no-brainer why more people are depressed. From increasing environmental concerns including global warming, to violence and conflict, and a myriad of domestic issues that we can't not be aware of any more. I remember a time when I lived in a small town and was very incubated from the world's problems. That incubation no longer exists.
And people are doing different activities on their phone including games and reading news or whatever they want.
It's a no-brainer why more people are depressed. From increasing environmental concerns including global warming, to violence and conflict, and a myriad of domestic issues that we can't not be aware of any more. I remember a time when I lived in a small town and was very incubated from the world's problems. That incubation no longer exists.
OCD replying to myself, but I used the word "incubated" when I meant something more along the lines of shielded, unaware, protected, unaffected.
I'd say that books and museums are problematic in very similar ways. Neither of those institutions are focused on reality. Both are contrary to human dialog and an unmediated existence.
When I'm sitting on the train I'm studying the people and things that I see around me, trying to look for the poetry in everyday life. I'm a songwriter but the approach works just as well with a travel set of watercolors and a sketchbook for the more visually inclined.
I have never seen good art being made by people who spend their time confusing Instagram for reality. If you have I would question wether you have the ability to recognize good from bad art. You must learn how to read before you can appreciate a good novel and the same applies to understanding other forms of art.
Good art will have a profound effect. It will literally give your life meaning and purpose. It will change the way you think about your society and your role in it.
Bad art is consumed like a fast-food hamburger. It might be superficially entertaining in the moment but will leave you feeling worse off after a few hours.
Good art doesn't need to appeal to the art critic or the marketplace but it must leave a deep satisfaction in the hearts and minds of those that take the time to appreciate it.
When I'm sitting on the train I'm studying the people and things that I see around me, trying to look for the poetry in everyday life. I'm a songwriter but the approach works just as well with a travel set of watercolors and a sketchbook for the more visually inclined.
I have never seen good art being made by people who spend their time confusing Instagram for reality. If you have I would question wether you have the ability to recognize good from bad art. You must learn how to read before you can appreciate a good novel and the same applies to understanding other forms of art.
Good art will have a profound effect. It will literally give your life meaning and purpose. It will change the way you think about your society and your role in it.
Bad art is consumed like a fast-food hamburger. It might be superficially entertaining in the moment but will leave you feeling worse off after a few hours.
Good art doesn't need to appeal to the art critic or the marketplace but it must leave a deep satisfaction in the hearts and minds of those that take the time to appreciate it.
The issue is that social media is bad for mental health. That means that excessive social media time can be a problem and is more objectionable that reading a book and likely also worse than watching TV or playing video games. I think if everyone was reading or doing something similarly benign on their phones it would be much less of an issue.
> That means that excessive social media time can be a problem and is more objectionable that reading a book and likely also worse than watching TV or playing video games.
That’s a rather serious claim to make without a source to back it up. What makes you think that reading is more “benign” than social media?
That’s a rather serious claim to make without a source to back it up. What makes you think that reading is more “benign” than social media?
Maybe I misunderstood the point of your comment but I'm not trying to argue that reading is good for you (which I personally believe), just that it isn't bad for you and I'm not aware of any controversy around that latter point as I have never heard anyone argue that they are bad for you and I couldn't find any studies saying that it is bad for you. If you think that point is controversial I'm willing to entertain the argument but the claim doesn't seem that serious to me.
brndnmtthws(1)
That's very likely a part of it.
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/instagram-ranked-worst...
https://www.rsph.org.uk/about-us/news/instagram-ranked-worst...
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Having directed this to my teenaged younger sibling (he is intelligent and expressive) he explained in his view, teenagers have a poor prognosis for their career prospects and are aware of this. Technology allows them to be aware that life doesn’t look good for them, that they cannot look forward to retirement, to a stable long term career, that the amount of education and debt they will need to accrue is ever-increasing, that their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result, if not in their own community then in the international stage. He attends one of the best schools in the nation and he believes most of his peers feel the same pressures both of their career prospects and their place in the greater international stage and all the things that are wrong with it that they cannot change because they cannot be in a position to change with any sense of ease (e.g. to have enough money to buy jeans not made via human exploitation requires an amount of success that feels as if it is becoming rarer,and even then how do you help people who cannot afford them to avoid exploiting other humans)
All in all, I think a growing awareness of the worlds problems and their individual struggles to be in a position for themselves is a pretty good reason for teenagers to feel more anxious and depressed.
All in all, I think a growing awareness of the worlds problems and their individual struggles to be in a position for themselves is a pretty good reason for teenagers to feel more anxious and depressed.
> that life doesn’t look good for them, that they cannot look forward to retirement, to a stable long term career, that the amount of education and debt they will need to accrue is ever-increasing
> attends one of the best schools in the nation
um, what?
I get this feeling if you don't go to one of the best schools in the nation - like me - but I'd be very surprised to see the same attitude at Harvard or Stanford.
Those guys are so happy!
> attends one of the best schools in the nation
um, what?
I get this feeling if you don't go to one of the best schools in the nation - like me - but I'd be very surprised to see the same attitude at Harvard or Stanford.
Those guys are so happy!
>their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result
That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. While there are indeed predatory business models where this is true - casinos etc. - most highly successful people and businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others.
That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. While there are indeed predatory business models where this is true - casinos etc. - most highly successful people and businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others.
Highly successful businesses like Apple, which are closely related to Foxconn and the horrors of labor there. That we know many elements that go into our technology may be sourced from dubious environments, unsafe working conditions, potentially human rights violations and war. That’s what he meant when I asked him. By consuming anything in the system one is contributing to the systems oppression internationally, and there isn’t an easy way to stop.
Foxconn and the horrors of labor there
Would you prefer that they starve to death because they have no work? I assure you, that's worse than working at Foxconn.
Would you prefer that they starve to death because they have no work? I assure you, that's worse than working at Foxconn.
So teenagers have to comfort themselves by knowing that they subject people to either starve or dehumanizing living conditions/work that strips people of any sense of self or comfort. This definitely helps with anxiety and depression.
Almost wanted to downvote you for the pedantic tone, decided to comment instead. What you are saying is not at all self-evident or settled. It's true that business models that create value without being predatory are possible, and surely even exist in great numbers, but to say that this is the case most of the time... That's a defensible but very much controversial statement, don't pretend otherwise.
I was not trying to be pedantic. In free market societies, most businesses grow by delivering value to their customers. Otherwise, nobody would frequent them and they would die off quickly. Again, there are exceptions to this, such as industries that depend on addiction - alcohol/tobacco/gambling businesses, for example, create value only for their owners at the expense of both their customers and society at large. But it holds true as a general rule that businesses either create value or die.
You reacted to the following phrase:
> that their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result, if not in their own community then in the international stage.
by saying that if the teenager in question properly understood economics they would understand that "most... businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others" and therefore not hold the opinion in that quote.
Your reading of the teenager's statement is, it seems, willfully narrow. It's true that if most businesses simply screwed their customers, they wouldn't survive long, with the exceptions that you mention. But I'm sure that's not what the kid in question meant, teenagers these days are smart cookies. They know that you can treat your customers well while screwing them sneakily (productize their data), screwing their community (use market dominance to force suppliers to lower prices, thereby accelerating offshoring and killing jobs), screwing some other community (locking in cheap resource contracts by bribing weak governments and thus fanning corruption), and the list goes on and on like that.
> that their success in this society will rely on using and stepping on others who will now have less as a result, if not in their own community then in the international stage.
by saying that if the teenager in question properly understood economics they would understand that "most... businesses become successful by creating value, not siphoning it from others" and therefore not hold the opinion in that quote.
Your reading of the teenager's statement is, it seems, willfully narrow. It's true that if most businesses simply screwed their customers, they wouldn't survive long, with the exceptions that you mention. But I'm sure that's not what the kid in question meant, teenagers these days are smart cookies. They know that you can treat your customers well while screwing them sneakily (productize their data), screwing their community (use market dominance to force suppliers to lower prices, thereby accelerating offshoring and killing jobs), screwing some other community (locking in cheap resource contracts by bribing weak governments and thus fanning corruption), and the list goes on and on like that.
There are limits to such growth. Arguably, the growth of last few centuries has been achieved by burning up finite resources [1]. And even if we'd somehow get an infinite source of energy, at some point we'd run into the heat dissipation limit of the earth. [2]
[1] http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat
[1] http://www.inscc.utah.edu/~tgarrett/Economics/Physics_of_the... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat
Huh? There are many businesses outside the oil and gas industries that create value.
Pretty much everything we produce or consume in the modern world is only possible due to the availability of cheap energy. health care, food, TV shows, pencils, clothes, etc.
The adolescent was likely referring to a broader social perspective, not consumer oriented business models.
The adolescent here could be observing a short term trend relative to an underlying bigger picture. People are competitive by nature and the modern information age may be amplifying this for them, at least in perception.
The adolescent here could be observing a short term trend relative to an underlying bigger picture. People are competitive by nature and the modern information age may be amplifying this for them, at least in perception.
I'd say this is more a problem with human nature, that social media is just exposing at a whole new level. It's basic biology to want to be the best, in order to attract the best mate etc. Social media has blown open a world where not only is there always someone better, more attractive, more fun, more social-able etc than you but also that the levels these people reach will always be unobtainable for you.
Of course it is, but then if it wasn't for that, social media would've never gotten so successful in the first place. What matters is the effect it has on the society, esp. on the immature minds that are taking shape. If you break it early, it may never unlock its full potential or be happy.
This is how I feel about all the people on HN who are vastly smarter than me.
The thing is, if you're going to compare yourself to others (which is something I'd recommend keeping to a minimum), it's easy enough to find someone who is more knowledgeable about something than you, but if you treat it as an opportunity to learn more then there's no downsides. Also, it's unlikely you'll find many people who are more knowledgeable than you on everything you know something about. Our own experience leads to different specialisations. I don't know your background, but I'm sure there are some things you have more knowledge about than me, and some things I have more knowledge about than you. If you only see someone as smarter you're only seeing part of the picture.
I like being around the guys here on HN. I don't mind that they are smarter than I. You always learn something new and are surrounded by the latest in Tech. I'd say just surrounding yourself with the people here will in turn make you smarter/knowledgeable.
Oh, I agree. I learn a lot here. It's the best corner of the web.
I just stumbled upon this website minutes ago and the comments on here immediately caught my eye. This place looks a lot like a poor man's Reddit but the discussions are on a whole other level; more focused and pithy, no jokes and memes. I really like it.
I think this is really it. Suicide rates have shot up 31% for boys and have over doubled for girls. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of that has to do with girls, who have always been subjected to unrealistic societal standards for attractiveness and an over-emphasis on how they compare to other women in appearance and social standing, now suddenly finding themselves in a situation where they are feeling pressured to compete on a global scale for these things over platforms like Instagram and subjected to feeling like they are constantly coming up short. I've heard a lot of anecdotes regarding the extreme escalation of efforts by girls to come off as more attractive/popular on social media in recent years. Their lives are now inundated with metrics by which they feel they have to compare themselves to others. That would make anyone anxious and depressed.
My wife just left me due to the rabbit hole that Instagram has taken her down. She’s a completely different person now. Social media addiction is real, and scary.
Can you expand on this? I don't really understand how x lead to y as i don't have much idea about social media addiction at all or its effects.
We moved to a new city. I work full time (from home) as a SWE. She is a stay at home mom. She met new people on IG in our new city, made friends. I thought it was great.
My wife has a hole deep inside her from years of childhood abuse. She has no career, is early 20s like myself, and has yet to figure herself out.
As the months went by, she filled that hole more and more with her connections on IG and less with our family/relationship. Her follower count grew from a few hundred to 10,000. She started spending more and more time taking videos for her followers.
It got to the point where I would come home from work, ask how her day was, she’d say “fine.” And then about an hour later or later that night, there would be a multi paragraph long post of hers about her day. She put more effort into her relationship with IG than she did with us. It makes sense, I mean shit, every single post she would get hundreds of comments saying all sorts of nice things. I tried to keep up. But IG filled that hole in her heart much faster than I could.
Keep in mind we weren’t just some random marriage. We were best friends for a year before we even started dating.
She decided she is “pansexual” and “polyamorous” and no longer wanted to be “tied down”. She refused to leave me because I pay all the bills. So I suffered for a few months while she brought home different people. Eventually I got my own apartment and walked out.
Even though I technically walked out at the end, she left me mentally long ago. She now spends all her free time with her IG cliques instead of getting a job or going to school...or anything worthwhile really. Just more photoshoots. More posting. More spending.
She doesn’t have an remorse or regret to her. She thinks she is on the path to her greatness, blah blah blah, monogamy is ownership, all these things she just keeps repeating from memes she reads from “woke” accounts. Fake facts and stats from “sources” that are just anonymous accounts posting bullshit. Millenials (my generation) browse this shit, read it, and believe it without any doubt in their heads. Meanwhile I’m paying about ~$4k a month in just rent and car bills for her. Not including anything else.
OH and did I mention - the main girls she hangs out with from IG, 4 of them, are ALL going through divorces in the past two months. 4 of them. And they don’t see any connection between them. Either they are lying to my face and have some sort of secret pact going on to be single...or that’s some seriously strong groupthink right there.
Social media echo chambers are real.
Edit - I left out this private details because I originally deemed it unnecessary to share, but I think it might explain why I’m being so “nice”. She thinks she’s lesbian, or bi. She’s been bringing home women. She has a girlfriend now. If it was guys then yeah I think it would be easier to just be all pissed off. But the fact that it’s women, rational or not, for some reason makes it more confusing for me to deal with. Sorry for leaving this out.
Thank you for all the feedback and advice. All if it is extremely helpful.
My wife has a hole deep inside her from years of childhood abuse. She has no career, is early 20s like myself, and has yet to figure herself out.
As the months went by, she filled that hole more and more with her connections on IG and less with our family/relationship. Her follower count grew from a few hundred to 10,000. She started spending more and more time taking videos for her followers.
It got to the point where I would come home from work, ask how her day was, she’d say “fine.” And then about an hour later or later that night, there would be a multi paragraph long post of hers about her day. She put more effort into her relationship with IG than she did with us. It makes sense, I mean shit, every single post she would get hundreds of comments saying all sorts of nice things. I tried to keep up. But IG filled that hole in her heart much faster than I could.
Keep in mind we weren’t just some random marriage. We were best friends for a year before we even started dating.
She decided she is “pansexual” and “polyamorous” and no longer wanted to be “tied down”. She refused to leave me because I pay all the bills. So I suffered for a few months while she brought home different people. Eventually I got my own apartment and walked out.
Even though I technically walked out at the end, she left me mentally long ago. She now spends all her free time with her IG cliques instead of getting a job or going to school...or anything worthwhile really. Just more photoshoots. More posting. More spending.
She doesn’t have an remorse or regret to her. She thinks she is on the path to her greatness, blah blah blah, monogamy is ownership, all these things she just keeps repeating from memes she reads from “woke” accounts. Fake facts and stats from “sources” that are just anonymous accounts posting bullshit. Millenials (my generation) browse this shit, read it, and believe it without any doubt in their heads. Meanwhile I’m paying about ~$4k a month in just rent and car bills for her. Not including anything else.
OH and did I mention - the main girls she hangs out with from IG, 4 of them, are ALL going through divorces in the past two months. 4 of them. And they don’t see any connection between them. Either they are lying to my face and have some sort of secret pact going on to be single...or that’s some seriously strong groupthink right there.
Social media echo chambers are real.
Edit - I left out this private details because I originally deemed it unnecessary to share, but I think it might explain why I’m being so “nice”. She thinks she’s lesbian, or bi. She’s been bringing home women. She has a girlfriend now. If it was guys then yeah I think it would be easier to just be all pissed off. But the fact that it’s women, rational or not, for some reason makes it more confusing for me to deal with. Sorry for leaving this out.
Thank you for all the feedback and advice. All if it is extremely helpful.
> Meanwhile I’m paying about ~$4k a month in just rent and car bills for her. Not including anything else.
You are contributing to her horrific lifestyle. You need to cut everything off. There is no other way to save her and yourself.
You are contributing to her horrific lifestyle. You need to cut everything off. There is no other way to save her and yourself.
You’re right. I’m an enabler. Hard reality to face. Thank you.
Its hard to effectively choose for someone you care so deeply about, to suffer. Even if they need it badly.
Its hard to effectively choose for someone you care so deeply about, to suffer. Even if they need it badly.
How is he supposed to do so? If they were indeed married and went through a divorce there is likely a court order forcing him to pay for her lifestyle.
Yep. In California or New York, it's typically a year of alimony for each 2 years of marriage. At 10 years, it's lifetime. So he definitely dodged a bullet.
But for a few years, he's probably on the hook for half his income since she was stay-at-home with no career.
But for a few years, he's probably on the hook for half his income since she was stay-at-home with no career.
There's still going to be child support for sure but after the kid starts going to school she will be expected to get a job, if able, and if she remarries then generally you won't have to pay alimony anymore.
HOW? Did court order you to pay alimony or something?
I don't think it's the social media. If she was abused as a child, then she is dealing with levels of emotional pain we cannot imagine. Being in a relationship with someone like that takes a superhuman level of patience. No one understands how much child abuse wrecks the psychology of a person until it's their immediate family.
It sounds like you've been a good husband to her. Women don't forget good treatment, even you feel like it's not being recognized. If she was abused by a man, it's possible she sees all men as villains, including you, as a consequence of the trauma, and that's not your fault.
You have to take care of yourself first. Put on your oxygen mask before helping others, etc. But it's obvious you still care about her and that's commendable.
Don't rely on forums like this for advice. People here tend to be bitter and antisocial. Stick with the therapy. It sounds like you are emotionally dependent on her, and that's not helping. If your therapist isn't helping you, try another one. Your goal should be fixing you. Not her.
Also: you keep mentioning how you work from home. If you do get back together (which it sounds like you won't, but stranger things have happened), do yourself a favor and get an on-site job. Your relationship will improve instantly.
It sounds like you've been a good husband to her. Women don't forget good treatment, even you feel like it's not being recognized. If she was abused by a man, it's possible she sees all men as villains, including you, as a consequence of the trauma, and that's not your fault.
You have to take care of yourself first. Put on your oxygen mask before helping others, etc. But it's obvious you still care about her and that's commendable.
Don't rely on forums like this for advice. People here tend to be bitter and antisocial. Stick with the therapy. It sounds like you are emotionally dependent on her, and that's not helping. If your therapist isn't helping you, try another one. Your goal should be fixing you. Not her.
Also: you keep mentioning how you work from home. If you do get back together (which it sounds like you won't, but stranger things have happened), do yourself a favor and get an on-site job. Your relationship will improve instantly.
Thank you for your advice.
damn.. Wow, well not as serious as your story..But I attribute my last relationship failure to IG as well.. Im not a big IG guy but my girlfriend was a model and had thousands of followers and it really became too much for me.. Constantly on the phone, messages/long correspondences and exchanges with random guys in different cities. Can also really relate to the 'groupthink' and 'woke' account passive education through various tumblr shitposting.. I used to tell her that it made me uncomfortable the way she spoke with other men via IG and she would just get all upset saying I was jealous, and the reason I was jealous because I was sexist. Anyway, I finally just walked away, but was very stressful. I don't know if it was IG or just her being shitty and IG was simply a vector for her to be shitty.
Feel for you. Can't imagine what to do in that situation. Can totally imagine how social media enabled a lot of that. I'm in a similar situation where my wife joined me in China because my job is over here. She's making a go of it focusing on studying and learning the language at the local university. She's really focused hard, all I ever see her do is study. So far she's happy, but sometimes I worry that she'll become unhappy. We're on the lookout for opportunities to develop healthy relationships with other people so that we're not alone (especially her, as she's new in this country).
Think it's really important to get involved in a local community where you can forge high-quality long-term relationships with emotionally healthy people whenever you move to a new place. Loneliness can kill you otherwise. For me, it'd usually be a church where I can focus on developing myself personally and spiritually, as well as bonds with others in a really non-judgmental environment. Realize that's not for everyone, and that many people actually experience church to be a very judgmental place. Sorry to anyone who's been through that.
Sounds like you're still supporting her financially. Don't know if you're hoping to get her back, or if you've given up and cut her loose. It's possible that the only thing you can do is cut her loose at this point because you're only acting as an enabler. I am not a psychologist. Wish you well. edit: realize from the other comments, maybe alimony is involved. If so, very sorry to hear. IANAL, but that sounds like a really raw deal where you should consult a lawyer, if that's the case?
Think it's really important to get involved in a local community where you can forge high-quality long-term relationships with emotionally healthy people whenever you move to a new place. Loneliness can kill you otherwise. For me, it'd usually be a church where I can focus on developing myself personally and spiritually, as well as bonds with others in a really non-judgmental environment. Realize that's not for everyone, and that many people actually experience church to be a very judgmental place. Sorry to anyone who's been through that.
Sounds like you're still supporting her financially. Don't know if you're hoping to get her back, or if you've given up and cut her loose. It's possible that the only thing you can do is cut her loose at this point because you're only acting as an enabler. I am not a psychologist. Wish you well. edit: realize from the other comments, maybe alimony is involved. If so, very sorry to hear. IANAL, but that sounds like a really raw deal where you should consult a lawyer, if that's the case?
I can relate to that, and hope you both find some great friends to build your support network. You hit it on the head, though, that they need to be emotionally healthy people. That’s where my wife went wrong. She befriended people who were not, are not emotionally healthy.
And no, no alimony. No court order. Just trying to figure out how to cut her off in the right way. We are used to a pretty lavish lifestyle and honestly I just feel bad for her. I need to not.
And no, no alimony. No court order. Just trying to figure out how to cut her off in the right way. We are used to a pretty lavish lifestyle and honestly I just feel bad for her. I need to not.
A lot of it has a lot to do with what it is like to be stay at home and being socially isolated, imo. The problem would exist without IG still, it would just manifest differently. They could be real life friends and it could be exactly the same thing. When one of you is at home and the other most of the time at work and both of you have completely different lifestyle, the relationship with people who understand you and are there is more alluring.
Except the one sided polygamy thing, that is plain old cheating. Through, I don't get why you did not divorced? You would still have to play for children, unless you fight to have them with you (or dual care), but chances are it would be less then you pay now. She is in early 20s you say, so it is not like she would be really dependent on your money cause she sacrificed career or something. Frankly, it sounds like the best thing for her would be for you to stop paying her bills.
Except the one sided polygamy thing, that is plain old cheating. Through, I don't get why you did not divorced? You would still have to play for children, unless you fight to have them with you (or dual care), but chances are it would be less then you pay now. She is in early 20s you say, so it is not like she would be really dependent on your money cause she sacrificed career or something. Frankly, it sounds like the best thing for her would be for you to stop paying her bills.
You’re right. I need to just stop paying her bills. I’m worried she’s going to get nastier and keep my child from me out of spite.
And I hear you, but - I work from home. When I said “come home from work” I just meant it like...end of the day. I don’t know why I still use that phrase. Sometimes I go work at coffee shops or something, so then I’ll come home. Sure maybe I’m not as present, since I am working, but she has it so much better than so many others out there..
I’ve worked from home for years. She’s had me home. I help with our child. I cooked dinner. I did the chores. It wasn’t like she was even the only stay at home parent...
I haven’t gotten divorced yet because I hold onto that vision of her coming back and begging for forgiveness. But I should know that’s not going to happen. And even if it did, after all this, idk if I could even take her back. I should probably just file...
And I hear you, but - I work from home. When I said “come home from work” I just meant it like...end of the day. I don’t know why I still use that phrase. Sometimes I go work at coffee shops or something, so then I’ll come home. Sure maybe I’m not as present, since I am working, but she has it so much better than so many others out there..
I’ve worked from home for years. She’s had me home. I help with our child. I cooked dinner. I did the chores. It wasn’t like she was even the only stay at home parent...
I haven’t gotten divorced yet because I hold onto that vision of her coming back and begging for forgiveness. But I should know that’s not going to happen. And even if it did, after all this, idk if I could even take her back. I should probably just file...
Whether you file or not, you should talk to lawyer. If all of your actions are motivated by child related fears, the lawyer can advise you on what to do to make sure you have access to kid and look good during potential divorce. Marriage counseling might be a good idea too. The relationship has zero chance to rebuild if both of you don't change. (She for obvious reasons and you basically so that you wont become victim of the same thing again. It sounds like the more you try, the less does she, then you try more, then she does even less. That is bad dynamic.)
If you by the end of your home work have to ask how was the day and then are surprised over those Facebook details, then there is not much difference against being at work from the relationship standpoint. I don't mean it as blame you, just that this would factor in into relationship social network present or not.
But you know, that does not explain polygamy part still. Not your fear of child being used against you.
If you by the end of your home work have to ask how was the day and then are surprised over those Facebook details, then there is not much difference against being at work from the relationship standpoint. I don't mean it as blame you, just that this would factor in into relationship social network present or not.
But you know, that does not explain polygamy part still. Not your fear of child being used against you.
Yeah. Good points, I appreciate your perspective.
I’ve been going to therapy for 2 months now independently. We did one appointment together. She cancelled her follow up.
We agreed to go to counseling together over a year ago but she just never followed through, even when I tried to.
I’ve been going to therapy for 2 months now independently. We did one appointment together. She cancelled her follow up.
We agreed to go to counseling together over a year ago but she just never followed through, even when I tried to.
That's a really sad story but not unusual or rare at all.
Send me an email (it's on my profile) and I will send you a couple of materials to help you cope with that kind of life situation.
Stay strong.
Send me an email (it's on my profile) and I will send you a couple of materials to help you cope with that kind of life situation.
Stay strong.
Thank you.
And agreed. Makes me wonder how many are struggling out there with something similar. Tons I’m sure. Not only on a romantic level, but in all types of friendships and relationships. Social media is not helping our shallow human tendencies.
And agreed. Makes me wonder how many are struggling out there with something similar. Tons I’m sure. Not only on a romantic level, but in all types of friendships and relationships. Social media is not helping our shallow human tendencies.
Wow. This is a really sad story. I'm really sorry for you and hope you can get over this and find a better partner.
Are you forced by the courts to pay her that $4K+/month? Because it would probably be better (not only for you, which is obvious, but for her) if you didn't.
Are you forced by the courts to pay her that $4K+/month? Because it would probably be better (not only for you, which is obvious, but for her) if you didn't.
No, we haven’t gone to court, no alimony or payments - luckily she wants to avoid it because her parents had a very messy divorce in her childhood.
I pay for her because honestly I’m scared of the lifestyle my child will live. She doesn’t work. She makes no money. She would be on the streets honestly. Doesn’t speak to either of her parents.
I recently emptied our joint bank account save $100. She flipped. Every time I cut her off more she gets more and more spiteful. So I’m in the process of cutting the lease on her house. Of selling the car. It’s just gonna take time, but I’m trying to avoid the court as well. Not that I have done literally anything wrong - I’m not scared of a judge ruling anything in her favor. I just want to avoid any chance of being in that situation though. Seeing I have about a lot more per year more to lose than she does...
I pay for her because honestly I’m scared of the lifestyle my child will live. She doesn’t work. She makes no money. She would be on the streets honestly. Doesn’t speak to either of her parents.
I recently emptied our joint bank account save $100. She flipped. Every time I cut her off more she gets more and more spiteful. So I’m in the process of cutting the lease on her house. Of selling the car. It’s just gonna take time, but I’m trying to avoid the court as well. Not that I have done literally anything wrong - I’m not scared of a judge ruling anything in her favor. I just want to avoid any chance of being in that situation though. Seeing I have about a lot more per year more to lose than she does...
She does not sound mentally capable of nurturing a child. If I were you, I'd leverage my stable income job and stable background to try go get custody. You can still allow her to live with your child, but it is important that you are the one making important decisions about your child's upbringing, and to keep her safe. Talk to a lawyer.
Did you spoke to the lawyer? The judge ruling in her favor would not be worst for you then it is now. If she risk being homeless, the child might even end up with you. In which case you dont have to fear irregular lifestyle you fear now. And if you ended up with shared custody, you would still have more control over what is going on with kid, was able to intervene sooner and still did not had to pay as much as you pay now.
Do some research into living with someone with borderline personality disorder. Only someone qualified can make the diagnosis but for those that may be involved with someone with bpd learning about bpd can help them better navigate the relationship, set boundaries and better protect their own mental health.
The early childhood abuse, unstable relationships and “the void” seem like a strong fit.
The early childhood abuse, unstable relationships and “the void” seem like a strong fit.
Ok, thank you, I will look into BPD.
There's a point of view that says it's easier to 'control' finances while you're married then when you're divorced.
One possibly good outcome is she has no access to your finances and you stay married. That way no court orders you to do anything.
Definitely recommend spend $1k with a divorce attorney to see your options.
If she'd be on the streets, that's her choice. Give her an ultimatum and let her live with the consequences.
One possibly good outcome is she has no access to your finances and you stay married. That way no court orders you to do anything.
Definitely recommend spend $1k with a divorce attorney to see your options.
If she'd be on the streets, that's her choice. Give her an ultimatum and let her live with the consequences.
That's what my current goal is, granted I haven't spoken to a lawyer yet which I will now. I truly believe she will never go through a court or even try to get a divorce. She doesn't "believe" in legal matters.
Thanks for the advice. Going to seek those options.
Thanks for the advice. Going to seek those options.
From what you’ve described, she’s easily impressionable. I suspect her hippie commune followers will encourage her and sway her opinion to go see a lawyer. Especially when you cut off financial support.
A person who is close to me has went through something similar.
I would admonish that you get a lawyer ASAP and talk out your options. This needs to be handled legally before someone does something they regret.
I would admonish that you get a lawyer ASAP and talk out your options. This needs to be handled legally before someone does something they regret.
I've seen this kind of scenario before. Don't let circumstances bleed you dry. Take decisive action to clear up the financial questions and go to a judge/lawyer if that's what it takes. Keep records of every dollar that goes anywhere, evidence of infidelity, etc.
You can always decide to be more generous later, but let that be your decision, not hers or some disinterested third party that will assume that you went on living this way because you consented.
You can always decide to be more generous later, but let that be your decision, not hers or some disinterested third party that will assume that you went on living this way because you consented.
please speak to a lawyer if you haven't already
Yeah I guess I really need to. I’ve been scared to do so.
You should be much more scared of what might happen if you do not.
Hiring a lawyer isn't something you'll regret for years, not doing so on the other hand...
Hiring a lawyer isn't something you'll regret for years, not doing so on the other hand...
I feel for you, that is a tough situation to be in. Having been in an emotionally abusive relationship myself, which sounds like what yours has developed into, I can kind of relate. I was neither married nor have children, and it was still very hard to disentangle myself from someone who was using me for stability. As others have said, you should probably talk to a lawyer since a child is involved. I also highly recommend finding a counselor or therapist if you haven’t already. This is deep emotional stuff, and it is hard to work through, and there are people who are trained to help you heal.
As someone who is living a non~monogamous lifestyle, I want to chime in about that aspect. When two people are in a monogamous relationship and one person decides/discovers that they want to open it up, they don’t get to just do that to their partner. It is still not consensual if they never got informed, non-coerced consent. It needs to involve lots of talking (much more than simply saying “I’m doing this now”), it may need to involve marriage counseling, and it absolutely needs to be done with love. The label “polyamory” in particular designates multiple meaningful, loving relationships, I.e. not just bringing people home, especially if you as her first partner aren’t cool with it. That ain’t polyamory, or any kind of consensual non~monogamy, because her actions are not taking your well-being into account, so if she’s calling it that then she’s fooling herself. (This still applies even if you agreed to try it out and it became clear that it didn’t work for you and you told her as much.)
Opening up an existing relationship is not an easy change to make, and it requires both partners to be on board, and it is absolutely fine for you to know that that’s not your relationship style and that you don’t want to continue a relationship with someone who has decided that it is hers. There is no need to feel bad about discovering that you are incompatible with each other and going your separate ways. I’m sorry that she didn’t know or care enough to handle the situation constructively though, that’s extra pain that could have been avoided.
It’s a shitty situation but you can bounce back from it. I was 29 when I got out of my bad relationship. That was 6 or 7 years ago now and I’ve been enjoying life more than ever! Just make sure to spend time taking care of yourself, and don’t be afraid to ask people for help when you need it. Best of luck to you.
As someone who is living a non~monogamous lifestyle, I want to chime in about that aspect. When two people are in a monogamous relationship and one person decides/discovers that they want to open it up, they don’t get to just do that to their partner. It is still not consensual if they never got informed, non-coerced consent. It needs to involve lots of talking (much more than simply saying “I’m doing this now”), it may need to involve marriage counseling, and it absolutely needs to be done with love. The label “polyamory” in particular designates multiple meaningful, loving relationships, I.e. not just bringing people home, especially if you as her first partner aren’t cool with it. That ain’t polyamory, or any kind of consensual non~monogamy, because her actions are not taking your well-being into account, so if she’s calling it that then she’s fooling herself. (This still applies even if you agreed to try it out and it became clear that it didn’t work for you and you told her as much.)
Opening up an existing relationship is not an easy change to make, and it requires both partners to be on board, and it is absolutely fine for you to know that that’s not your relationship style and that you don’t want to continue a relationship with someone who has decided that it is hers. There is no need to feel bad about discovering that you are incompatible with each other and going your separate ways. I’m sorry that she didn’t know or care enough to handle the situation constructively though, that’s extra pain that could have been avoided.
It’s a shitty situation but you can bounce back from it. I was 29 when I got out of my bad relationship. That was 6 or 7 years ago now and I’ve been enjoying life more than ever! Just make sure to spend time taking care of yourself, and don’t be afraid to ask people for help when you need it. Best of luck to you.
Really appreciate your comment. I consider myself a pretty progressive guy and I agree with your statements. It’s not about the multiple lovers, its the way she just decided to do it with no regard for me.
I did see a picture where we are happy in an open marriage. But not even close to the one that she is painting right now - the one she has gathered from the influence of IG influencers. And she has let me know many times she is not stopping.
Thanks for your insight.
I did see a picture where we are happy in an open marriage. But not even close to the one that she is painting right now - the one she has gathered from the influence of IG influencers. And she has let me know many times she is not stopping.
Thanks for your insight.
Hey man, I hope shit gets better for you. That sounds awful and I don't think it's that uncommon today.
Really really appreciate it...sharing is making me feel better.
Sounds like they were just bored and the relationship wasn't working out
"Early 20s" seems to be the major problem here. Not everybody wants to settle down at this age
"Early 20s" seems to be the major problem here. Not everybody wants to settle down at this age
Which I could say there’s more to it than that but yeah...pretty much.
Except if she wasn’t sure she didn’t want to settle down...she shouldn’t have. We didn’t have kids until after we were married. And even still I’m younger than her and I prefer being “settled down” or whatever you want to call it. She betrayed the commitment we had without ending it first. She tried to have her cake and eat it too.
Except if she wasn’t sure she didn’t want to settle down...she shouldn’t have. We didn’t have kids until after we were married. And even still I’m younger than her and I prefer being “settled down” or whatever you want to call it. She betrayed the commitment we had without ending it first. She tried to have her cake and eat it too.
> Except if she wasn’t sure she didn’t want to settle down
As you have said, she had a void that needed to fill and a very difficult past to deal with. Being sure about what ones want is not that easy in that scenario. She probably got engaged with you hoping that you could fill that gap or simply because it could bring some stability to her life.
I don't blame you for having tough thoughts about her. You'll need a thick skin to get out of that relationship but it's not as simple as saying "if she wasn’t sure she didn’t want to settle down...she shouldn’t have".
As you have said, she had a void that needed to fill and a very difficult past to deal with. Being sure about what ones want is not that easy in that scenario. She probably got engaged with you hoping that you could fill that gap or simply because it could bring some stability to her life.
I don't blame you for having tough thoughts about her. You'll need a thick skin to get out of that relationship but it's not as simple as saying "if she wasn’t sure she didn’t want to settle down...she shouldn’t have".
I'm sorry this has happened. I hope you find a way through it for yourself.
Thank you. Appreciate your ears.
Sounds like you dodged one. Probably the best thing you could do for her at this point is to stop funding her lifestyle. It's hard, but that's the reality check she needs. She'll figure out quickly that she can't exchange her IG likes for fiat currency, and will therefore face the tough and necessary--but inevitable--lesson.
> She has a girlfriend now.
Social media can't be responsible for that.
At least you didn't have kids. My sister's friend (a man) was married to a woman who left him for another woman. Two kids from the 6 year marriage. There was no "social media" element to the story. Sometimes people just change or snap, and is most likely because they get married too young in the first place.
Another person I know, a man, got married to his girlfriend - they'd been together for about 4 years and were happy. Big expensive wedding. Less than 12 months later he left her for another woman. Again, social media not involved at all. Just human relations.
Social media can't be responsible for that.
At least you didn't have kids. My sister's friend (a man) was married to a woman who left him for another woman. Two kids from the 6 year marriage. There was no "social media" element to the story. Sometimes people just change or snap, and is most likely because they get married too young in the first place.
Another person I know, a man, got married to his girlfriend - they'd been together for about 4 years and were happy. Big expensive wedding. Less than 12 months later he left her for another woman. Again, social media not involved at all. Just human relations.
I don’t believe she is truly lesbian or bi now (no offense to those that are). It’s a phase. And I think the choice of outlet for this phase stemmed from the influence of what she was consuming on IG.
And we have one child.
And we have one child.
wow, just wow.
What about the kid or kids? If she got IG addicted to the point that she didn't even mind you leaving her...
Yeah I mean she wants max free time so lucky me, I get 5 evenings a week with my child and weekends. Basically a free babysitter at this point while I work.
The funny thing is that the IG clique she’s in is ALL stay at home moms...being a mother is a big part of their identity. The irony that they are all completely not present in their realities with their children is totally lost on them. You really couldn’t write this shit.
The funny thing is that the IG clique she’s in is ALL stay at home moms...being a mother is a big part of their identity. The irony that they are all completely not present in their realities with their children is totally lost on them. You really couldn’t write this shit.
I'd have taken custody of my kid the next day she said "polyamorous".
How much does an initial consultation with an attorney cost? Likely less than 4K, I would assume.
I would think (not sure) that one significant contributing factor in psychological harm to children in context of divorce is the undermining of notions of love, loyalty. And I would think being front row observers of instability in human relations is also damaging to young ones.
~
My sincere condolences to OP regarding this awful situation, but please consider if continuing this situation will in fact have the same (if not worse) adverse effects on your little loved ones as a divorce.
You also mentioned your so-called-wife has broken relations with her parents. What about your parents? It is critically important that FAMILY love, fealty, support is demonstrated to your children.
I would think (not sure) that one significant contributing factor in psychological harm to children in context of divorce is the undermining of notions of love, loyalty. And I would think being front row observers of instability in human relations is also damaging to young ones.
~
My sincere condolences to OP regarding this awful situation, but please consider if continuing this situation will in fact have the same (if not worse) adverse effects on your little loved ones as a divorce.
You also mentioned your so-called-wife has broken relations with her parents. What about your parents? It is critically important that FAMILY love, fealty, support is demonstrated to your children.
>How much does an initial consultation with an attorney cost? Likely less than 4K, I would assume.
Often nothing at all.
Often nothing at all.
I highly recommend reading "The Rational Male" (book). Besides other valuable insights it will give you a good understanding of what you describe here as "groupthink" and "secret pact".
[deleted]
It sounds like you're going through something very tough, I'm sorry. If I were you I would get a divorce, cancel credit cards, and stop paying for apartment and car.
So all she needs now is 4K a month?
Have you thought of what you'll do when she hits reality and comes back begging for forgiveness?
Have you thought of what you'll do when she hits reality and comes back begging for forgiveness?
I bounce between forgiving and forgetting - and telling her to fuck off.
And 4K just for bills. Not including the every-other-day $200 trip to Whole Foods for shit to juice.
And 4K just for bills. Not including the every-other-day $200 trip to Whole Foods for shit to juice.
This is just silly man. I’m just going to come out and say it.
I hope you’ve re-read what you yourself wrote here and realize how ridiculous it is.
I urge you to take some people’s advice here and talk to a lawyer immediately, start cutting her off of her privilege, and stop enabling her actions.
You’re doing her harm, you’re doing your kid harm, and you’re doing yourself harm. You’re not helping anyone in this situation by letting it go on like this and the soooner you recognize that, the better.
In fact, you’re making the situation worse with some of your actions. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer. I can’t say it enough.
I hope you’ve re-read what you yourself wrote here and realize how ridiculous it is.
I urge you to take some people’s advice here and talk to a lawyer immediately, start cutting her off of her privilege, and stop enabling her actions.
You’re doing her harm, you’re doing your kid harm, and you’re doing yourself harm. You’re not helping anyone in this situation by letting it go on like this and the soooner you recognize that, the better.
In fact, you’re making the situation worse with some of your actions. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer. I can’t say it enough.
Yeah...definitely rubber ducking this right now and it’s pretty clear...I’m glad I posted something. Haven’t had many people to talk to about this who don’t have an emotional connection to the situation.
But I mean seriously. I didn’t ask for this so I still love/d her. Tell the person you love, the mother of your child, that you’re done putting a roof over their head. It’s hard. I know that’s no excuse. I need to grow a pair. But fuck. It’s hard.
But I mean seriously. I didn’t ask for this so I still love/d her. Tell the person you love, the mother of your child, that you’re done putting a roof over their head. It’s hard. I know that’s no excuse. I need to grow a pair. But fuck. It’s hard.
You’re not done putting a roof over their head. The courts will make damn sure about that.
The reality is that you’re contributing to your wife and kid’s long term demise even though in the short term you feel like and think you are helping them.
I can’t understand how difficult this situation is for you, but realizing that you are not helping at all with your money or your actions seems an important step to mentally take.
Think about the long term implications, not your short term attachments.
Read about the perspectives of children who had to suffer trough broken marriages where the parents stayed together for the kid. Nearly all of the kids say it would have been better if their parents had just broken up instead of keeping the facade going and fostering a toxic environment.
The reality is that you’re contributing to your wife and kid’s long term demise even though in the short term you feel like and think you are helping them.
I can’t understand how difficult this situation is for you, but realizing that you are not helping at all with your money or your actions seems an important step to mentally take.
Think about the long term implications, not your short term attachments.
Read about the perspectives of children who had to suffer trough broken marriages where the parents stayed together for the kid. Nearly all of the kids say it would have been better if their parents had just broken up instead of keeping the facade going and fostering a toxic environment.
> I bounce between forgiving and forgetting
You need to talk to a psychologist.
You need to talk to a psychologist.
Yes, but first he needs to contact a lawyer.
He has already made several fatal moves:
1. Left the marital home which the courts will consider abandonment. She just won legal custody.
2. He is paying her $4K or whatever a month without any judicial order. None of this will count towards future spousal or child support - instead it is a gift that establishes her minimum financial need.
3. He is (probably) not documenting, down to the minute, the time he spends with his child. Again, there goes custody.
4. The next call from the playbook will be to get him for domestic violence. As the man, it is absolutely irrelevant if there is proof or not (see the Duluth Model). He's not recording every interaction with her, though he should be.
If you do nothing else, start reading: http://forum.mensdivorce.com/viewforum.php?f=12
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model
He has already made several fatal moves:
1. Left the marital home which the courts will consider abandonment. She just won legal custody.
2. He is paying her $4K or whatever a month without any judicial order. None of this will count towards future spousal or child support - instead it is a gift that establishes her minimum financial need.
3. He is (probably) not documenting, down to the minute, the time he spends with his child. Again, there goes custody.
4. The next call from the playbook will be to get him for domestic violence. As the man, it is absolutely irrelevant if there is proof or not (see the Duluth Model). He's not recording every interaction with her, though he should be.
If you do nothing else, start reading: http://forum.mensdivorce.com/viewforum.php?f=12
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model
Another point of view that I read about somewhere:
1. His wife was bringing home lovers to have sex with in the marital bed while he was home. He was not okay with this and asked her to stop and she became violent, combatant, abusive and irrational, yelling, screaming, throwing things in front of their child.
2. He is paying for his child to live in his house. He has asked his wife to surrender their child to him and she has refused, saying she wants to raise the child in a commune with other pansexual stay-at-home house wives.
3. He has reconstructed down to the minute all the time he has spent with his wife, and all of the mistakes and problems his wife has had with him. He has cell phone logs and text messages which corroborate this, as well as GPS locations.
4. I suspect that recently, while he's talking with his wife about how to amicably separate and take care of their child, his wife will physically attack him and he will call the police and show him the bruises.
1. His wife was bringing home lovers to have sex with in the marital bed while he was home. He was not okay with this and asked her to stop and she became violent, combatant, abusive and irrational, yelling, screaming, throwing things in front of their child.
2. He is paying for his child to live in his house. He has asked his wife to surrender their child to him and she has refused, saying she wants to raise the child in a commune with other pansexual stay-at-home house wives.
3. He has reconstructed down to the minute all the time he has spent with his wife, and all of the mistakes and problems his wife has had with him. He has cell phone logs and text messages which corroborate this, as well as GPS locations.
4. I suspect that recently, while he's talking with his wife about how to amicably separate and take care of their child, his wife will physically attack him and he will call the police and show him the bruises.
Ok this is what I’m fucking terrified of.
I left the home because she kept asking me to stop sleeping in my own bed so her girlfriend could sleep there with her. I endured that for months. What else was I supposed to do? I’m not going to make the mistake of becoming physical, nor do I have the reactionary desire to.
I’m going to contact a lawyer today.
I left the home because she kept asking me to stop sleeping in my own bed so her girlfriend could sleep there with her. I endured that for months. What else was I supposed to do? I’m not going to make the mistake of becoming physical, nor do I have the reactionary desire to.
I’m going to contact a lawyer today.
Everytime I get frustrated with my wife I'm just going to keep thinking about how good I have had it.
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Well, from the way you're talking about her, it sounds like you're being a bit dismissive about her void that she needs to fill. She has hopes and dreams, just like you. If you both met when you were teens, then she probably felt like her entire life was chosen by a teenager. And that's daunting for anyone.
I know you're hurting. I've felt it. Sometimes it feels like the end of the world. But nothing happy will come from vilifying her or blaming her. She might feel like she had to look out for herself. It's the only life she'll ever get.
If she's truly polyamorous, then that means there is space for you too, you know. You just have to attract her.
But you should ask yourself if you really want that. She's a different person than the idea of her you're clinging to. Do you love her? Or are you afraid of being alone?
If you love her, and you want to pursue it, realize you might still lose her. But one chance is to wait for her to finish exploring whatever she wants to explore, and then see if she comes back. Keep in touch and try to talk about something real, something deep. Without arguing. Let her have a voice.
It's not enough to pay someone's bills. They're a person. And one step towards a healthy relationship is to shed the "if I do X for you, then you do Y for me" mindset. It's poisonous, at least in my own life. Maybe it's different for other people.
Best of luck. If you want to chat, shoot me an email.
I know you're hurting. I've felt it. Sometimes it feels like the end of the world. But nothing happy will come from vilifying her or blaming her. She might feel like she had to look out for herself. It's the only life she'll ever get.
If she's truly polyamorous, then that means there is space for you too, you know. You just have to attract her.
But you should ask yourself if you really want that. She's a different person than the idea of her you're clinging to. Do you love her? Or are you afraid of being alone?
If you love her, and you want to pursue it, realize you might still lose her. But one chance is to wait for her to finish exploring whatever she wants to explore, and then see if she comes back. Keep in touch and try to talk about something real, something deep. Without arguing. Let her have a voice.
It's not enough to pay someone's bills. They're a person. And one step towards a healthy relationship is to shed the "if I do X for you, then you do Y for me" mindset. It's poisonous, at least in my own life. Maybe it's different for other people.
Best of luck. If you want to chat, shoot me an email.
I understand and get where you’re coming from. I appreciate it. But trust me when I say I have not ignored this hole at all. She is completely unaware of it. I’ve been trying to help her mend it subconsciously for years. Years. I can’t even get started on the ways how. But again, I get where you’re coming from. It’s just not like that.
Trust me. If she was just bills to me - I would have stopped paying a long time ago. We shared a deep deep connection. Why do you think I got married so young?
Trust me. If she was just bills to me - I would have stopped paying a long time ago. We shared a deep deep connection. Why do you think I got married so young?
Ah, yeah. I was reading a bit far into it.
Do you think she'd be willing to go to couple's therapy? It's very expensive but it can be worth it.
If you're ever looking for someone to just listen, let me know.
Do you think she'd be willing to go to couple's therapy? It's very expensive but it can be worth it.
If you're ever looking for someone to just listen, let me know.
Thank you, I appreciate your ears.
I have been trying to get her into couples counseling or even just individual counseling for over a year. She just never makes it happen. I started counseling individually 2 months ago. She came to 1 session, I booked her a follow up, but she cancelled it. She has theoretically agreed to couple counseling in the past, but now couldn’t be bothered.
She thinks her IG friends are her counselors, starting the echo chamber cycle.
I have been trying to get her into couples counseling or even just individual counseling for over a year. She just never makes it happen. I started counseling individually 2 months ago. She came to 1 session, I booked her a follow up, but she cancelled it. She has theoretically agreed to couple counseling in the past, but now couldn’t be bothered.
She thinks her IG friends are her counselors, starting the echo chamber cycle.
When you read this article, what do you think?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
Oh yeah. I think I have continued to let her act this way because being with her, being married, our family, has all been such a huge part of my identity...but that's not a bad thing to me. I guess then it must be my responsibility if I actually care about her to leave her, so she can overcome her own stuff. Which is where I'm currently at...it just fucking sucks.
It does just fucking suck. And I’m very sorry that you have to go through this. The hardest part of love and relationships being vulnerable and knowing that sometimes it doesn’t work out. You guys have a kid together, and that’s more important than anything. Take care of your kid and take care of yourself. She’s chosen not to take care of you.
How're you doing today? Do you want anyone to talk to?
I'm doing pretty well actually today, thanks for asking - it really means a lot.
I made a few different calls this morning and setup an appointment with a lawyer later this week to sit down and get everything better sorted.
I started talking to a couple of my friends more about it and they have been surprisingly supportive of me, calling me, etc. Not feeling as alone as when I wake up at 3am and realize I'm all alone, which I'm not used to, but at least I know I'm sadly not alone in that boat and can relate to others.
Thanks again for reaching out. I'll shoot you an email.
I made a few different calls this morning and setup an appointment with a lawyer later this week to sit down and get everything better sorted.
I started talking to a couple of my friends more about it and they have been surprisingly supportive of me, calling me, etc. Not feeling as alone as when I wake up at 3am and realize I'm all alone, which I'm not used to, but at least I know I'm sadly not alone in that boat and can relate to others.
Thanks again for reaching out. I'll shoot you an email.
Please feel free to email me. Sometimes I'm up at 3am anyway, and I can relate to the whole "waking up feeling alone" experience.
Just try to remember, it's temporary.
Just try to remember, it's temporary.
These days I use facebook just for its messenger. On my computer, I skip facebook.com and go to messenger.com directly. On mobile (I refuse to install their apps), I go to mbasic.facebook.com because Facebook doesn't let me access the messenger tab in the mobile facebook website, nagging me to install their messenger app.
Messenger is a really useful tool to stay connected. Pretty much everyone I know is available there, so using it is a net positive for me. Can't say the same about the news feed itself.
(I know that the article isn't talking about Facebook in particular, but I just thought this is worth sharing.)
Messenger is a really useful tool to stay connected. Pretty much everyone I know is available there, so using it is a net positive for me. Can't say the same about the news feed itself.
(I know that the article isn't talking about Facebook in particular, but I just thought this is worth sharing.)
I have actually completely stopped using Facebook main social app at all. I have deleted Facebook app from my mobile phone and logged out of facebook.com website on my MacBook. The only services I still use from FB are Messenger (all my friends are on there) and Instagram (I travel a lot and I post pictures from my travels on IG).
I would say the only part of the FB ecosystem I cannot leave yet is Messenger. I could quit using Instagram more or less easily. But losing access to quickly have a word with my closest friends and family is something I cannot do.
If there was a way to communicate with my best friends and family without having to be a prisoner of some large MNC's ecosystem, I could leave FB completely.
I would say the only part of the FB ecosystem I cannot leave yet is Messenger. I could quit using Instagram more or less easily. But losing access to quickly have a word with my closest friends and family is something I cannot do.
If there was a way to communicate with my best friends and family without having to be a prisoner of some large MNC's ecosystem, I could leave FB completely.
Messenger works better than the default SMS app on my Android phone, so I end up using it instead. The value of using the actual Facebook website does seem to be in serious decline. Either nobody I know is actually using it anymore, or they are filtering the shit out of the newsfeed - I see the same stories for days at a time.
Also, you can export the event and birthday calendar to a different calendar app (https://www.facebook.com/help/152652248136178?helpref=uf_per...).
> Messenger is a really useful tool to stay connected. Pretty much everyone I know is available there, so using it is a net positive for me.
I fully agree. I use messenger more than texting. Peoples phone #'s or email addresses might change but Facebook stays constant. This tool's especially useful on Android, where my iPhone friends are hesitant to text me bc of the dreaded green texts.
I fully agree. I use messenger more than texting. Peoples phone #'s or email addresses might change but Facebook stays constant. This tool's especially useful on Android, where my iPhone friends are hesitant to text me bc of the dreaded green texts.
Messenger is at least as good as a decent IRC server, with your friends all agreeing to use an IRC client app, instead.
Super weird to see that we're coming full circle; it used to be that you had to install a special app to chat with your friends, same as it ever was today ..
Super weird to see that we're coming full circle; it used to be that you had to install a special app to chat with your friends, same as it ever was today ..
> with your friends all agreeing to use an IRC client app
I can’t imagine what world you live in where this is a realistic options. I couldn’t even persuade my tech friends to do this, let alone my wider friend group who work in different fields.
I can’t imagine what world you live in where this is a realistic options. I couldn’t even persuade my tech friends to do this, let alone my wider friend group who work in different fields.
Its basically a no-brainer to set up an IRC app .. if you can install Messenger, you can easily set up a jabber or IRC client. The hard part is sending the URL to your friends so they can just easily join you, but who needs friends like that? ;)
I'm sad to say that I think this is the intended result of social media from the corporate/business point of view.
Instead of TV, with its advertisements being broad and un-targeted, people are building their own hell by searching for what they want. Then the machines learn get an idea what they want, and show it to them. Part of the nature of advertising is convincing people they need these things, otherwise they will be "out" (old, poor, unpopular, etc.).
Instead of maybe one ad in an hour (or a day) triggering you, you're bombarded with reminders of what could be, if you could afford it. Of course the promises are unrealistic and easily broken, but I don't think most people have the mental tools to realize that at the time.
There's all this great positive content out there too! Educational videos, science, all that. But it seems the impact of bad things outweighs the good, which just seems to be human nature - we regret things a lot more than we are thankful for what we do not regret. Even if they aren't selling anything to us.
It's true that we're comparing across the world now, and there will be someone better than you. But that's almost always been true, although for a lot of the time you didn't know who was better, or they were simply some distant name written in a book, easily forgotten. For example, I think few will rival Aristotle, but nobody seems to care about that.
Fear and regret are powerful motivators, but dangerous ones as well. If you can't act for some reason (lack of money, lack of opportunity/ability) it just seems to gnaw at you until you snap. I don't think it's any different than TV, except now amplified via personalization.
Instead of TV, with its advertisements being broad and un-targeted, people are building their own hell by searching for what they want. Then the machines learn get an idea what they want, and show it to them. Part of the nature of advertising is convincing people they need these things, otherwise they will be "out" (old, poor, unpopular, etc.).
Instead of maybe one ad in an hour (or a day) triggering you, you're bombarded with reminders of what could be, if you could afford it. Of course the promises are unrealistic and easily broken, but I don't think most people have the mental tools to realize that at the time.
There's all this great positive content out there too! Educational videos, science, all that. But it seems the impact of bad things outweighs the good, which just seems to be human nature - we regret things a lot more than we are thankful for what we do not regret. Even if they aren't selling anything to us.
It's true that we're comparing across the world now, and there will be someone better than you. But that's almost always been true, although for a lot of the time you didn't know who was better, or they were simply some distant name written in a book, easily forgotten. For example, I think few will rival Aristotle, but nobody seems to care about that.
Fear and regret are powerful motivators, but dangerous ones as well. If you can't act for some reason (lack of money, lack of opportunity/ability) it just seems to gnaw at you until you snap. I don't think it's any different than TV, except now amplified via personalization.
Mayhaps not just Teenagers.
My grandfather has slowly been slipping into a deep depression. Not trying to slap correlations with a causal label, but man oh man how he has started to rely on social media.
To continue being anecdotal: getting rid of my Facebook has (after a few years) greatly helped me feel butter (intentional typo, you betcha).
My grandfather has slowly been slipping into a deep depression. Not trying to slap correlations with a causal label, but man oh man how he has started to rely on social media.
To continue being anecdotal: getting rid of my Facebook has (after a few years) greatly helped me feel butter (intentional typo, you betcha).
To me, this overall cheapening of life is a problem bigger than social media.
Before recorded music, getting to hear a performance was an event in itself. I can only imagine it was savored. Now, the constant, high-speed bombardment of new music has made our tastes fickle and cheapened the experience. It's not "bad", but it has changed that part of being a person.
We've done it to everything. Food, film, clothing, books, and social interaction. These things we criticize are just specific symptoms of the overall trend, but I can't imagine a scenario where it doesn't happen. It's an unavoidable outcome of our increasing the pace and availability of things. Again, not even sure it's bad, it just feels weird. I don't know how you scale a civilization any other way.
As you get older, it's common to think of yourself as having been born "too late" for something, and I try to be mindful of that tendency. However, it's one thing to lament not being able to be a cowboy, it's another to wistfully look back on life having any manageable pace.
Before recorded music, getting to hear a performance was an event in itself. I can only imagine it was savored. Now, the constant, high-speed bombardment of new music has made our tastes fickle and cheapened the experience. It's not "bad", but it has changed that part of being a person.
We've done it to everything. Food, film, clothing, books, and social interaction. These things we criticize are just specific symptoms of the overall trend, but I can't imagine a scenario where it doesn't happen. It's an unavoidable outcome of our increasing the pace and availability of things. Again, not even sure it's bad, it just feels weird. I don't know how you scale a civilization any other way.
As you get older, it's common to think of yourself as having been born "too late" for something, and I try to be mindful of that tendency. However, it's one thing to lament not being able to be a cowboy, it's another to wistfully look back on life having any manageable pace.
Is there any real research that suggests iPhones are the cause? Couldn’t it be things that are much more mundane: we just went through an enormous recession, which caused a lot of money problems in families. We’re at an unprecedented point in the level of acrimony in politics, which is filtering down into parents’ everyday conversations. We’re on the precipice of being destroyed by global warming and pretty much all experts agree that today’s kids will have a lower standard of living than their parents. Maybe kids are anxious and depressed because they’re reading the news (on their iPhones?) and realize how fucked they are?
I think a large part of it is due to excessive exposure to life of the rich and successful. Seeing these images through Instagram feels more like a personal interaction than through a magazine, not to mention the frequency.
I have felt this myself having for a period followed the 'it' group in my city. These people were in the best clubs, restaurants, yachts, holiday destinations almost all the time surrounding by beautiful and what appears to be interesting people. Hard not to feel deprived when your monkey mind perceives that as somewhat normal. Despite a very, very small number of people who have this lifestyle, there are enough for this type of life to appear pervasive.
In the past our exposure to this subset of people was extremely limited. Fashion and gossip magazines would do profiles giving a small glimpse into the world. Generally the incredible lives some people have was hidden.
I think it is probably best not to be frequently reminded of a lifestyle that is likely out of your reach. If one thinks not obtaining this lifestyle is a failure (work on this thought if you do!), don't reopen the wound several times a day.
I have felt this myself having for a period followed the 'it' group in my city. These people were in the best clubs, restaurants, yachts, holiday destinations almost all the time surrounding by beautiful and what appears to be interesting people. Hard not to feel deprived when your monkey mind perceives that as somewhat normal. Despite a very, very small number of people who have this lifestyle, there are enough for this type of life to appear pervasive.
In the past our exposure to this subset of people was extremely limited. Fashion and gossip magazines would do profiles giving a small glimpse into the world. Generally the incredible lives some people have was hidden.
I think it is probably best not to be frequently reminded of a lifestyle that is likely out of your reach. If one thinks not obtaining this lifestyle is a failure (work on this thought if you do!), don't reopen the wound several times a day.
The internet has become a world wide soap opera that we are all characters in. ISP's sell a subscription service to minutely episodes of the whole spectrum of human emotion. I also get as much negative and positive feedback as I desire and can take a hit whenever I open my phone.
“People only post what they want you to see, so it can seem like their life is better than yours.”
Not mention how often these displays of a better person/better life are exaggerations or straightforward lies.
Not mention how often these displays of a better person/better life are exaggerations or straightforward lies.
So what is it about "Social Media" that's causing this? Article has a passing mention of coveting exotic holidays. (I haven't read the mentioned book.)
So is it (just) comparison? "Everyone else's life is amazing / I'm the only one who's faking it."
What about unhealthy levels of screen usage in general? Do kids who play video games instead of going outside/socializing face-to-face feel the same way (to some extent)?
Maybe media (news/commentary) intake through these services contributes? We all have our echo chambers of ever-spiraling outrage at the Evil of the Other Side -- does this add to feeling powerless, or that the future is hopeless? Certainly aren't being exposed to reasoned debate...
Broader, do our modern technologies now allow more complete, socially acceptable escape from 'real life'? And the further we get from non-virtual interactions with _anything_ the more ill we become?
So is it (just) comparison? "Everyone else's life is amazing / I'm the only one who's faking it."
What about unhealthy levels of screen usage in general? Do kids who play video games instead of going outside/socializing face-to-face feel the same way (to some extent)?
Maybe media (news/commentary) intake through these services contributes? We all have our echo chambers of ever-spiraling outrage at the Evil of the Other Side -- does this add to feeling powerless, or that the future is hopeless? Certainly aren't being exposed to reasoned debate...
Broader, do our modern technologies now allow more complete, socially acceptable escape from 'real life'? And the further we get from non-virtual interactions with _anything_ the more ill we become?
Don't forget the effect modern day food with all the added estrogen in diary, antibiotics given to animals, pesticides, added sugar and palm oils all now in their gut, mix in less sleep and social media and no wonder their moods are screwed. You are what you eat.
I find instagram to be, by far, the most damaging to my mental health of all the social networks. The explore feed must be optimized to relentlessly show "all the people I wish I could be but will never be."
Instagram was never my favorite, but I could at least get behind the old news feed sorting by "most recent". I recently deleted the app bc of the new sorting algorithm, which I'm not a fan of. At least Facebook gives the option to switch the news feed sorting back to "most recent".
Are you saying that if you were unaware those people existed, your mental health would benefit?
I don't understand. "Ignorance is bliss" surely can't be an antidote to depression.
I don't understand. "Ignorance is bliss" surely can't be an antidote to depression.
The point is that it's so easy to fall into the trap of comparing yourself to the artificial lives of professional "influencers" on Instagram who are selling you a lifestyle for their own gain. It isn't so much "ignorance is bliss" so much as realizing the life they sell isn't really real. Even among "non-influencers" everyone is optimizing posts to show the happiest parts of their lives, which is a tiny slice of our reality.
When you're feeling depressed or anxious, being bombarded with a feed of artificially happy people only makes you more depressed or anxious.
When you're feeling depressed or anxious, being bombarded with a feed of artificially happy people only makes you more depressed or anxious.
I think it takes a tiny bit of courage to look around the room, to have thoughts in public, and to have an image of "I'm not constantly busy". There are millions of George Costanzas, who are constantly acting busy in and high demand, not because they don't want more work, but.. well I don't know why. Maybe they actually ARE busy with social media, but I always look at them like they're pretenders.
Being free is better than acting busy.
Being free is better than acting busy.
Actually I think in this case the problem is yours.
Imagine if you were actually doing something on your phone, somewhat important or necessary in some way. And you found out the person near you was assuming you were pretending, that you were acting, in other words you are fake. Not very nice of them to assume that is it?
Imagine if you were actually doing something on your phone, somewhat important or necessary in some way. And you found out the person near you was assuming you were pretending, that you were acting, in other words you are fake. Not very nice of them to assume that is it?
Columbine, 9/11, the financial crisis and student debt were all mentioned in this article as possible contributors to teens’ depression. What about climate change? The young will bear the brunt of of it, they know it and they can see that “no one” cares enough to do anything substantive about it. This could be a strong dynamic in this depression trend, too.
I have always felt that seeing other people’s success and happiness is not the cause of this type of behavioral change. I think that social media causes damage in two ways.
First of all, the feed/timeline/wall delivery system of information delivery must have some play in this. On instagram, I follow friends, family, coworkers, artists, creators, meme curators, technical brands, etc. They all deliver very different content, but I’m generally exposed to them in the same feed. So while I scroll through my feed, I do so much context switching that I get attention-motion sickness. I enjoy the post as I scroll though but I don’t retain anything. I could scroll through hundreds of posts in just a few minutes, and I’ll hardly remember any of what I’ve seen. It’s like an exercise in half paying attention, or an exercise of forgetting. But, we do it every single day, all the time. The information highway has gone from an open platform for sharing to a fast lane of content mixed with brands and ads shooting right through my conscious.
Then, we have the nerve to call it social. Yes, there’s a lot to say about the amount of connectivity these platforms have given us. But they’ve also changed the conversation we have. Sure, when I directly interact with people on these platforms, I’m doing something kinda social. But you know what’s not social? Staring at, or talking to a wall. No matter who has wiped their shit on it. I’m no biologist, but I know humans have mirror neurons which fire when interacting with other humans/things. So, we have a mechanism(s) in the body that respond to actual face to face interaction. How does an abstraction of technology interact with those mechanisms? I can only assume that the iPhone does not account for this in their UX meetings.
It is a little silly to me to assume that the staggering rates of depression and suicide come from reflection on the content these kids are seeing on social media. Social media, when used as designed, does not offer the time to reflect.
(I want to say that there are obvious other dangerous aspects of social media that may lend themselves to dangerous behavior as a result of reflection, such as obsession and stalking, bullying, etc)
First of all, the feed/timeline/wall delivery system of information delivery must have some play in this. On instagram, I follow friends, family, coworkers, artists, creators, meme curators, technical brands, etc. They all deliver very different content, but I’m generally exposed to them in the same feed. So while I scroll through my feed, I do so much context switching that I get attention-motion sickness. I enjoy the post as I scroll though but I don’t retain anything. I could scroll through hundreds of posts in just a few minutes, and I’ll hardly remember any of what I’ve seen. It’s like an exercise in half paying attention, or an exercise of forgetting. But, we do it every single day, all the time. The information highway has gone from an open platform for sharing to a fast lane of content mixed with brands and ads shooting right through my conscious.
Then, we have the nerve to call it social. Yes, there’s a lot to say about the amount of connectivity these platforms have given us. But they’ve also changed the conversation we have. Sure, when I directly interact with people on these platforms, I’m doing something kinda social. But you know what’s not social? Staring at, or talking to a wall. No matter who has wiped their shit on it. I’m no biologist, but I know humans have mirror neurons which fire when interacting with other humans/things. So, we have a mechanism(s) in the body that respond to actual face to face interaction. How does an abstraction of technology interact with those mechanisms? I can only assume that the iPhone does not account for this in their UX meetings.
It is a little silly to me to assume that the staggering rates of depression and suicide come from reflection on the content these kids are seeing on social media. Social media, when used as designed, does not offer the time to reflect.
(I want to say that there are obvious other dangerous aspects of social media that may lend themselves to dangerous behavior as a result of reflection, such as obsession and stalking, bullying, etc)
Rather than just e-devices alone, I wonder about the shift in parenting and style of education today. One of the most marked shifts in society today has been the change in direction towards treating everybody as special. Yet children know who the 'smart' kids are, they know who the athletic kids are, they know who the artistic kids are, and so on. How is a kid supposed to feel when he's constantly told he's special, yet he knows he's not particularly great at anything? A wall full of participation trophies isn't going to change that disconnect; unless the child is completely obtuse, it's going to be a reminder of all his failures to ever achieve.
Now enter the internet on top of this and it's a perfect storm. The media loves stories, however fake they may often be, of wunderkind 11 year old creates nuclear reactor in basement during downtime between giving violin solos at Carnegie Hall and solving world hunger. And the image crafting of social media only further adds to all of this.
Most people are not special, and that is okay. Even when I was young this sort of treating everybody as special had already started to seep into education. The anecdote of Einstein failing at math in high school was one that came up more than a couple of times. Of course he didn't. His response to that rumor, perhaps started by a misunderstanding of a grade change scale, was a laugh and comment that he never failed in math and statement that before he was fifteen he'd mastered differential and integral calculus. It's similar with efforts to posthumously diagnose him with various sorts of disabilities, or even attributing, in part, his success to his wife who failed to achieve a teaching certification -- unable to pass the mathematics component, she gave up after two attempts.
Ultimately I think we should treat nobody as special. And require people prove it through their own deeds. There should be every possible opportunity for anybody to achieve such merit, but people should not be expected to be special. It's simply unrealistic and, even if it may make us (as in the parents and teachers creating this facade) feel better about ourselves, I don't think it's achieving the intended effect.
Now enter the internet on top of this and it's a perfect storm. The media loves stories, however fake they may often be, of wunderkind 11 year old creates nuclear reactor in basement during downtime between giving violin solos at Carnegie Hall and solving world hunger. And the image crafting of social media only further adds to all of this.
Most people are not special, and that is okay. Even when I was young this sort of treating everybody as special had already started to seep into education. The anecdote of Einstein failing at math in high school was one that came up more than a couple of times. Of course he didn't. His response to that rumor, perhaps started by a misunderstanding of a grade change scale, was a laugh and comment that he never failed in math and statement that before he was fifteen he'd mastered differential and integral calculus. It's similar with efforts to posthumously diagnose him with various sorts of disabilities, or even attributing, in part, his success to his wife who failed to achieve a teaching certification -- unable to pass the mathematics component, she gave up after two attempts.
Ultimately I think we should treat nobody as special. And require people prove it through their own deeds. There should be every possible opportunity for anybody to achieve such merit, but people should not be expected to be special. It's simply unrealistic and, even if it may make us (as in the parents and teachers creating this facade) feel better about ourselves, I don't think it's achieving the intended effect.
There is more social isolation, less meaningful relationships, less sex, debt, overwork, medication and a DDoS on your attention via YouTube, Netflix, CNN, foxnews. It's not just social media and not just teens.
Comparatives are too easy to draw these days because of social media. Everyone has an image of the most popular/successful person in their face all the time. It's hard not to compare yourself! And when you fall short in comparison, it makes you feel unhappy. Then it makes you feel like you need some moonshot idea to elevate your standards - that puts pressure on you and invariably drives anxiety. I see growing levels of anxiety in the interns I hire - and ironically, I see them resorting to social media to find solace of some kind!
I still don't see how comparing to success causes unhappiness. This theory is too convenient and is spreading like a disease.
When you see someone who is popular and successful, the normal and healthy response is admiration and inspiration. If you fail to have your own wins of some kind, then this could be the source of unhappiness, but that is because you didn't have a win, not because others did.
When you see someone who is popular and successful, the normal and healthy response is admiration and inspiration. If you fail to have your own wins of some kind, then this could be the source of unhappiness, but that is because you didn't have a win, not because others did.
It causes unhappiness because it highlights that you are relatively worse off. And I wasn't talking about comparisons between yourself and some random celebrity, but moreso a comparison between yourself and a person you might have been at college with. If that person is doing exceptionally well, and you're doing just okay, there is a strong chance it will stir up jealously and negativity rather than admiration. This is also the topic of multiple sitcoms, which generally tend to zoom in on relatable facets of human nature ;)
The problem is, you are seeing people in completely different environments, some of which are infeasible for you to attain. Its worth noting, the issues related to income inequality are due to relative inequality, not absolute.
As opposed to growing more anxious and depressed due to television watching?
Or just about any other media, if you listened to my parents you would think the world is about to end.
You're right, also television! But also other things. Which makes me think of the products that I use that are algorithmically built for addictiveness - not to say all products are initially built with the intention of being addictive, but products gradually become so and a company then unethically pushes new features that will further the addictiveness since that keeps the user coming back/on the product. An example of the latter is Netflix or Spotify. Netflix, last time I checked, now auto plays previews of shows on the main page - a way to get the user to be intrigued, stay on the product, and keep watching more shows. Spotify, while a revolutionary product, I find is addictive - millions of songs a user has yet to listen to? Well, then that is more of a reason for the user to plunge into two hours of music searching and while the user is at it, why not create a playlist for every occasion that might occur.
The latter two examples being poor examples, but yet, there are products/services all around us which manipulate our mind. I have always been keen on building something, a product or service, something morally and ethically just - no advertisements, no gimmicks, etc. I.e. Spotify should have a optional pop-message say: "You have been listening to music for five hours. You should let your ears rest and make some pumpkin pie." Or from Netflix: "You have just watched the entire season of two shows. You should really go lay under a tree in a park and eat some grapes." Again, the latter two examples are not likely, they are dream-like features but this is what I dictate to be a movement towards more healthy products/services to which we need.
In modern day, we must then be extra aware of what we consciously consume and put in our head day in and day out in our everyday life. We might even decipher if this is what we want to consume, if it is healthy, if it is the way we want to lead our lives. The latter being an approach I took to deciding to stop: watching, reading, and listening to the news, bookmarking countless of articles I find (Pocket, the bookmarking saving tool, is particularly overwhelming), sticking to just a few websites I regularly visit, not using/having any social media account, etc.
Above all, I'll finish this comment off with two of my favorite quotes and a video about everyday virtue that I think is appropriate in regard to the article and something teenagers should come to know:
Thomas Merton: "The greatest need of our time is to clean out the enormous mass of mental and emotional rubbish that clutters our minds.”
Andrei Tarkovsky from Sculpting in Time: “Modern mass culture, aimed at the 'consumer', the civilisation of prosthetics, is crippling people's souls, setting up barriers between man and the crucial questions of his existence, his consciousness of himself as a spiritual being.”
Everyday Virtue, an analysis of the independent film Paterson with support from ideas of David Foster Wallace (it's about awareness, normal and ordinary everyday life, etc): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnGvWTRQ9j4
The latter two examples being poor examples, but yet, there are products/services all around us which manipulate our mind. I have always been keen on building something, a product or service, something morally and ethically just - no advertisements, no gimmicks, etc. I.e. Spotify should have a optional pop-message say: "You have been listening to music for five hours. You should let your ears rest and make some pumpkin pie." Or from Netflix: "You have just watched the entire season of two shows. You should really go lay under a tree in a park and eat some grapes." Again, the latter two examples are not likely, they are dream-like features but this is what I dictate to be a movement towards more healthy products/services to which we need.
In modern day, we must then be extra aware of what we consciously consume and put in our head day in and day out in our everyday life. We might even decipher if this is what we want to consume, if it is healthy, if it is the way we want to lead our lives. The latter being an approach I took to deciding to stop: watching, reading, and listening to the news, bookmarking countless of articles I find (Pocket, the bookmarking saving tool, is particularly overwhelming), sticking to just a few websites I regularly visit, not using/having any social media account, etc.
Above all, I'll finish this comment off with two of my favorite quotes and a video about everyday virtue that I think is appropriate in regard to the article and something teenagers should come to know:
Thomas Merton: "The greatest need of our time is to clean out the enormous mass of mental and emotional rubbish that clutters our minds.”
Andrei Tarkovsky from Sculpting in Time: “Modern mass culture, aimed at the 'consumer', the civilisation of prosthetics, is crippling people's souls, setting up barriers between man and the crucial questions of his existence, his consciousness of himself as a spiritual being.”
Everyday Virtue, an analysis of the independent film Paterson with support from ideas of David Foster Wallace (it's about awareness, normal and ordinary everyday life, etc): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnGvWTRQ9j4
Wages stagnating, costs of college increasing, and most teenagers are pretty upset about the political climate, but I'm sure it's social media. Sure the markets have improved, but that improvement hasn't really been reflected in wage growth.
It very well can be because teenagers are more vulnerable to the flood of shallow and sensationalist information pouring on them from media, amplified by social networks. Even for adults it can be hard to keep positive thinking after watching/reading news nowadays. No wonder teens struggle with it even more.
One way to think about some of this stuff is that "the society has changed too much too quickly for our biology to catch up".
I believe that social media is a symptom, not the cause, of the great loneliness that our modern aloneness has caused. We are alone much of the time, especially in American suburbia. Even when we are in the city filled with people, these people are just blank faces whom we do not know. We are seeking any form of connection that we can get. And when the only connection to others that we have is through the computer, we become addicted to it.
That said, I believe that once addicted to social media, the bubble of safety that we feel from "eating social junk food". The screen bubble, can become alluring and some people fall into it. I remember at the Prague hackerspace, how we'd all be sitting around the table, and I'd be confused, why people were laughing and interacting without words. It was a while till I realized that they were chatting on IRC.
That said, I believe that once addicted to social media, the bubble of safety that we feel from "eating social junk food". The screen bubble, can become alluring and some people fall into it. I remember at the Prague hackerspace, how we'd all be sitting around the table, and I'd be confused, why people were laughing and interacting without words. It was a while till I realized that they were chatting on IRC.
I too agree, but I believe the root cause is the scale, speed, complexity and volatility of modern life: there is a great deal of information overload and rapid changes which overwhelm a lot of us.
Humans evolved in environments that usually involved absorbing a limited amount of fairly stable information, and dealing with communities of limited size (say, less than 100?), also fairly stable. Now we have to process thousands of faces (some in person, some through media), millions of pieces of information (news, commercials, trivia, education, business emails, social media feeds) and thousands of different micro-skills (learn the latest feature in smartphones, adapt to your bank changing its electronic banking policies, based on latest research now you need to learn to look for a low-carcinogen version of your favorite food, etc.)
I wonder whether this is what's causing many people to zone out, some to retreat into private shells and a few to resort to senseless armed violence...
Humans evolved in environments that usually involved absorbing a limited amount of fairly stable information, and dealing with communities of limited size (say, less than 100?), also fairly stable. Now we have to process thousands of faces (some in person, some through media), millions of pieces of information (news, commercials, trivia, education, business emails, social media feeds) and thousands of different micro-skills (learn the latest feature in smartphones, adapt to your bank changing its electronic banking policies, based on latest research now you need to learn to look for a low-carcinogen version of your favorite food, etc.)
I wonder whether this is what's causing many people to zone out, some to retreat into private shells and a few to resort to senseless armed violence...
> and I'd be confused, why people were laughing and interacting without words. It was a while till I realized that they were chatting on IRC.
Call me oldschool.. I'm just 43 and I still have that split second confusion every time I see someone speak aloud in the metro or tram here with their glassy stare, looking in front of them, while speaking to apparently no one. Every god damn time I'm like "(0.3 seconds) OH..."
But am I not wrong. I don't need to "understand" anything. My body is that through which I know myself and everything else. All of what we call "reality" is experienced through, and as, a body.
If anything technology should honor, and augment that instead of dissociating us.
Call me oldschool.. I'm just 43 and I still have that split second confusion every time I see someone speak aloud in the metro or tram here with their glassy stare, looking in front of them, while speaking to apparently no one. Every god damn time I'm like "(0.3 seconds) OH..."
But am I not wrong. I don't need to "understand" anything. My body is that through which I know myself and everything else. All of what we call "reality" is experienced through, and as, a body.
If anything technology should honor, and augment that instead of dissociating us.
That's a bit of a culture shock for me. Because talking on a cell phone is taboo in the Prague mass transport system. People will occasionally have a short and apologetically whispered phone call, but if you talk out loud old people will stare at you angrily and may even psht.
Sounds ideal to me.
In the UK we have 'silent carriages' on trains but after a while the 'loud and impolite' people started to realise there was little or no enforcement so, although we still have them, they are pretty much redundant.
In Spain (where I'm living now) there seems to be a class divide (much more in the UK) regarding etiquette for loud talking and phone conversations. Local busses and trains can be sheer hell yet longer distance services and flights tend to be quite civilised.
In the UK we have 'silent carriages' on trains but after a while the 'loud and impolite' people started to realise there was little or no enforcement so, although we still have them, they are pretty much redundant.
In Spain (where I'm living now) there seems to be a class divide (much more in the UK) regarding etiquette for loud talking and phone conversations. Local busses and trains can be sheer hell yet longer distance services and flights tend to be quite civilised.
Teenagers have always felt a need to connect with others. Social media allows you to think you are fulfilling it without actually engaging with other people. When I was that age, I had to get up and go out. And I spent time with lots of other teenagers, which also taught me to figure out who I liked and didn't, what I liked to do, and what I did not. FWIW, when my grandpa was that age, living on a farm, he'd hitchhike across Nebraska to meet other teenagers. Every generation has its own version of what they did to meet other kids their age.
That is my real concern - nobody lives a perfect life or is perfectly happy as a teenager. But you take action to find a better life, and grow in those years, on multiple levels, and come out of it having developed into the person you will really be. So who will these kids be who spent those formative years staring at devices? I really don't know... is it just a new flavor of the same growth, or will it be different?
That is my real concern - nobody lives a perfect life or is perfectly happy as a teenager. But you take action to find a better life, and grow in those years, on multiple levels, and come out of it having developed into the person you will really be. So who will these kids be who spent those formative years staring at devices? I really don't know... is it just a new flavor of the same growth, or will it be different?
What definition of “engaging” are you using that disclaims entire classes of communications technology?
The cause is 30-40 years of a mindless consumption culture. It has given us growth but at a price. The good news is we it seems to be hitting it limits. And that's when things change. For the better.
While I hate consumerism, I wonder why you say that it has caused our loneliness. Wouldn't it be possible to buy large numbers of board games, and other social goods while not becoming isolated? It actually seems to me that consumption is for the most part social. I mean, if I spend all day at home on reddit, what do I need to buy besides cereal and soylent powder? But if I'm going out all the time, I'll buy clothing to keep up with the local fashions, I'll buy wine to bring as a gift, ect. Even the constant home improvement, that basement cinema and the pool room, are initially understood as social purchases. "We need this patio so we can have parties." "I'm gona invite all my friends over and we'll play X-Box."
Consumerism requires very high prioritisation of one’s career (as otherwise you won’t be able to afford all the nice stuff), which means working very hard, moving around the country/world for better jobs etc. This must come at the cost of friendships and family bonds.
I believe that it is actually unhappiness and loneliness which are the drivers of consumerism and not the other way around. I believe that happy people are lazy and I think that is why western civilization has outstripped the others. I think, that since our social bonds have been destroyed, we work hard to try to seek happiness that the other civilizations already have. And then our civilization spreads, like a disease, infecting other civilizations and making them unhappy and hardworking as well.
I think that this is a relatively new phenomena, which occurred during the urbanization caused by the industrial revolution. Urbanization caused social bonds to be broken, and people became unhappy and hard working.
There is a super creepy tshirt from one startup I know, which has the text "the pyramids were not built by happy people". I've always wanted to ask them about what this means. But I've never had the nerve.
But it has always haunted me.
I think that this is a relatively new phenomena, which occurred during the urbanization caused by the industrial revolution. Urbanization caused social bonds to be broken, and people became unhappy and hard working.
There is a super creepy tshirt from one startup I know, which has the text "the pyramids were not built by happy people". I've always wanted to ask them about what this means. But I've never had the nerve.
But it has always haunted me.
> I believe that happy people are lazy
I’m now reading Marx’s “Grundrisse” and at some point, while he has just started explaining the essence of capital, he mentions the story of an English priest who on visiting the island of Jamaica complains that everyone in there is lazy, that they don’t want to work more in order to achieve more in life than just obtaining their daily food, and that was the way to disaster. When asked by said English priest on why they were working just enough to put some food on the table the Jamaicans answered him that there’s no reason for them to work more than strictly necessary, they’re happy with what they have.
Marx’s book was written in the 1850s so that I reckon that the English priest’s story dates from the early to the mid-1800s, i.e. when the Industrial Revolution was on full throttle in Britain.
I’m now reading Marx’s “Grundrisse” and at some point, while he has just started explaining the essence of capital, he mentions the story of an English priest who on visiting the island of Jamaica complains that everyone in there is lazy, that they don’t want to work more in order to achieve more in life than just obtaining their daily food, and that was the way to disaster. When asked by said English priest on why they were working just enough to put some food on the table the Jamaicans answered him that there’s no reason for them to work more than strictly necessary, they’re happy with what they have.
Marx’s book was written in the 1850s so that I reckon that the English priest’s story dates from the early to the mid-1800s, i.e. when the Industrial Revolution was on full throttle in Britain.
No that's not it. The _real_ cause for this angst is so many people disparaging the mindless consumption culture. (Perhaps teenagers are afraid there won't be opportunity to participate :).
"Social junk food" is a good description
Though I think the hacker space example is not bad, the technology helped people come together, and brought them closer (at least initially)
Though I think the hacker space example is not bad, the technology helped people come together, and brought them closer (at least initially)
Governments all over the world will use the agenda "social media is bad, people need to be protected from it" to regulate how we interact with each other over digital media. This will stifle our ability to communicate and organize against laws and government actions that are not right.
Meanwhile school homework gets more and more ridiculous and children get medicated with who knows what kind of psychoactive substances because they cannot deal with it, but no, that's not the cause of teenager mental health problems.
Meanwhile school homework gets more and more ridiculous and children get medicated with who knows what kind of psychoactive substances because they cannot deal with it, but no, that's not the cause of teenager mental health problems.
> Meanwhile school homework gets more and more ridiculous
Parents need to adjust their expectations, or the kids are caught between a rock and a hard place. The school won't show mercy.
Parents need to adjust their expectations, or the kids are caught between a rock and a hard place. The school won't show mercy.
> The school won't show mercy.
I guess this is very specific to the US phenomenon explained in the article.
In my German schooling history, cheating the homework was trivial and well established. Everyone got the degree and it was a running gag that grades are inflated. If you fail you can just switch systems and do the degree somewhere else; no hard feelings. If you don't want to switch (because let's say you can't get another school to take you in the area and want to continue to live with your parents) there is a second educational path (zweiter Bildungsweg) which allows you do retry to get the degree.
From my perspective, the pressure I was feeling was entirely self-made and - in retrospective - unnecessary.
Therefore: I would love to see evidence whether or not those findings get approved in other educational systems like in the German speaking countries.
I guess this is very specific to the US phenomenon explained in the article.
In my German schooling history, cheating the homework was trivial and well established. Everyone got the degree and it was a running gag that grades are inflated. If you fail you can just switch systems and do the degree somewhere else; no hard feelings. If you don't want to switch (because let's say you can't get another school to take you in the area and want to continue to live with your parents) there is a second educational path (zweiter Bildungsweg) which allows you do retry to get the degree.
From my perspective, the pressure I was feeling was entirely self-made and - in retrospective - unnecessary.
Therefore: I would love to see evidence whether or not those findings get approved in other educational systems like in the German speaking countries.
The schools need to come up with ways to teach more material, more rigorously, in fewer years -- at least for the intelligent students with healthy upbringings. You cannot expect the school system to function as psychological counselors, remedial educators, baby-sitters, and rigorous educators all in one. Society's choice has been to take the first three and sacrifice the last one, as a result of which, students have more and more "work" imposed on them, with standards for excellence becoming steadily more inflated, without undergraduate-, postgraduate-, and professional-level outcomes improving linearly.
Is a TL;DR version for the people on the other side of the paywall?
We treat them as adults in school (by making them responsible for their own performance through grading and measuring) from a very young age, yet we don't really cut the umbelical cord (grant them autonomy) until they're in their twenties.
Socially they're expected to act in their long term interest, at the expense of social and emotional self-realization (i.e. "maturing") for a long time, and the only alternative is failure (now on prominent display on social media heh...)