Perl 6 Advent Calendar(perl6advent.wordpress.com)
perl6advent.wordpress.com
Perl 6 Advent Calendar
https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/01/the-grinch-of-perl-6-a-practical-guide-to-ruining-christmas/
82 comments
Thank you for the post! It was very fun.
Some fuddy-duddies think that preferring expression over safety is irresponsible. They might be right, but Perl is a language that doesn't have to justify itself:
https://www.perl.com/pub/1999/03/pm.html
Can't wait for the next one!
Some fuddy-duddies think that preferring expression over safety is irresponsible. They might be right, but Perl is a language that doesn't have to justify itself:
https://www.perl.com/pub/1999/03/pm.html
Can't wait for the next one!
I’m glad you’re having some fun. I still code in Perl 5 regularly and reading your code is causing my brain to invert. I’m not sure if you’re a Contrary Warrior or an Assassin whose primary weapon is Brainstem Autodissection. It’s like learning Perl all over again.
Perl 6 feels like what happens when your answer to all bike-shedding questions is "both!" and your answer to the follow-up question "how will we tell them apart?" is "we'll add a secret codeword."
Still, I have to love the fun some Perl coders feel in their language.
Still, I have to love the fun some Perl coders feel in their language.
All I see in this thread are a bunch of pre-modernists stuck in the middle of the 20th century.
Perl 6 is the only language in the world suitable for metaphorical programming.
For example, how would you implement a load-balanced pool of HTTP web servers over Port 80 in a language like Python, serving Hello World?
In Perl 6 this is just five lines:
Perl 6 is the only language in the world suitable for metaphorical programming.
For example, how would you implement a load-balanced pool of HTTP web servers over Port 80 in a language like Python, serving Hello World?
In Perl 6 this is just five lines:
imagine web servers, like the droplets of mists of fog
as many as the sun shines through. A clarion: Hello world.
The sun? An http server, its port 80.
Cast off!
I'll steer when I'm ready.
race, ye hogs of web servers
the killing time is near. Your cries? Hello world.
The abattoir? An http server, its port 80.
Cast off!
I'll steer ye when I'm ready.
Looks more like this... via http://mi.cro.services/
use Cro::HTTP::Server;
use Cro::HTTP::Router;
my $app = route {
get -> { content 'text/html', 'Hello World! ' ~ DateTime.now() }
}
my Cro::Service $service = Cro::HTTP::Server.new(
:host('localhost'), :port(9000), :$app
);
$service.start;
react whenever signal(SIGINT) {
$service.stop;
say "Goodbye!";
exit;
}I now want to try writing web-sonnets using Perl 6's grammar...
This is frankly terrible advertisement for Perl 6.
I guess it is targeted at people that are already well-versed in Perl 6 (or at least Perl 5)? Maybe it should say so at the top so that people like me do not get a terrible first impression of it.
I guess it is targeted at people that are already well-versed in Perl 6 (or at least Perl 5)? Maybe it should say so at the top so that people like me do not get a terrible first impression of it.
The Perl advent calenders have a pretty long tradition and are mostly about tinkering with the language, presenting new modules etc. Often with a christmas/Santa theme.
In other words, they're about "hacking"...
They also server as a decent health check (e.g. Catalyst seems pretty much dead), but aren't really about advertising.
In other words, they're about "hacking"...
They also server as a decent health check (e.g. Catalyst seems pretty much dead), but aren't really about advertising.
I want to like perl6, I really do. The language has some simply great features. I agree with the parent, this seems like a terrible way to get people new into the language.
I do a fair amount of perl5 script maintenance, so am familiar with the language. Advents calendars are daily small chunks, an Ideal way to introduce the language but they turned this into a "look how clever" our language is post, which to me is "wow this is hard to read and maintain."
Lamentably these examples don't give me hope that Perl6 is going to be any better at being maintained.
I do a fair amount of perl5 script maintenance, so am familiar with the language. Advents calendars are daily small chunks, an Ideal way to introduce the language but they turned this into a "look how clever" our language is post, which to me is "wow this is hard to read and maintain."
Lamentably these examples don't give me hope that Perl6 is going to be any better at being maintained.
A syntactically cleaned up Perl that didn't feel like the object system had been bolted on afterwards would have been what I wanted in Perl 6. That, and it being released in 2002. I've long since moved on though.
Given what all happened, it turns out you pretty much could have had that in 2002, and it was called Python. I don't mean this as an entry in the Perl v. Python flamewar; I mean that more like "as long as you were going to have to move from Perl 5 to Perl 6 anyhow, Perl 5 -> Python isn't that much harder", and it gives you what you say you want in 2002. (Ruby fits too but IIRC came in later; if it existed in 2002 it had not yet crossed the Pacific.)
Python isn't anything like Perl, it's quite different. I'm a Perl5 user myself and find Ruby much more appealing.
2002 was handwavy. I ultimately moved to Ruby as my primary language (I'm now 50/50 Ruby/Go).
FWIW I tried Python, I just didn't like it. I've programmed a lot of languages and most I'm fine with, I just didn't like the way Python felt.
FWIW I tried Python, I just didn't like it. I've programmed a lot of languages and most I'm fine with, I just didn't like the way Python felt.
I think that's why a lot of Perl coders were resistant, and why a lot eventually moved to Ruby. There's a big difference between having some gripes cleaned up and having the fundamentals of what programming feels like in the languages be almost diametrically opposed.
It's also likely why there have been multiple (for the most part failed) projects over the years trying to do just what you asked for. Sometimes it bears fruit in other places, but future Perl has always been beholden to, and held back by past Perl, and Perl's extreme commitment to backwards compatibility. That's actually seeming to change a little recently, with newer version actually removing long deprecated features, which bodes well for interesting future change.
It's also likely why there have been multiple (for the most part failed) projects over the years trying to do just what you asked for. Sometimes it bears fruit in other places, but future Perl has always been beholden to, and held back by past Perl, and Perl's extreme commitment to backwards compatibility. That's actually seeming to change a little recently, with newer version actually removing long deprecated features, which bodes well for interesting future change.
I know what you're getting at, but if you find Python and Perl to be diametrically opposed languages, you may want to spread your wings a bit and try something really different. From my point of view, on the grand programming landscape, they're right next door to each other, and at the global scale that includes things like SQL, Prolog, J, Verilog, etc., barely distinguishable. (The dynamically-typed scripting languages form a fairly tight cluster overall, with Lua hanging out a bit.)
> From my point of view, on the grand programming landscape, they're right next door to each other, and at the global scale that includes things like SQL, Prolog, J, Verilog, etc., barely distinguishable.
I agree, and when hiring recently I specifically noted that I didn't think anyone familiar with Python, Ruby, Javascript or Perl would have much problem easily learning another on that list. The operative words in the sentence question, which admittedly had little qualifying explanation, were "what programming feels like".
I find programming Perl is often and exercise in choosing the right Perl language options to fit your idea of what you want to accomplish as closely as possible, because the language was designed with affordances for how we think and express ourselves colloquially. This is how Perl tries to ease the act of expressing intent.
I find that Python tries to ease the act of expressing intent by limiting your options to the point that you have fewer choices, but the transcription of idea to code becomes rather ingrained and automatic.
Both are valid attempts at the act of easing programmer burden, but along that spectrum, I find them opposed. I can see how many Perl coders used to one approach might find the other stifling, at least initially.
I agree, and when hiring recently I specifically noted that I didn't think anyone familiar with Python, Ruby, Javascript or Perl would have much problem easily learning another on that list. The operative words in the sentence question, which admittedly had little qualifying explanation, were "what programming feels like".
I find programming Perl is often and exercise in choosing the right Perl language options to fit your idea of what you want to accomplish as closely as possible, because the language was designed with affordances for how we think and express ourselves colloquially. This is how Perl tries to ease the act of expressing intent.
I find that Python tries to ease the act of expressing intent by limiting your options to the point that you have fewer choices, but the transcription of idea to code becomes rather ingrained and automatic.
Both are valid attempts at the act of easing programmer burden, but along that spectrum, I find them opposed. I can see how many Perl coders used to one approach might find the other stifling, at least initially.
I still think that if they had just called it something other than Perl, they may have picked up a little more traction.
Perhaps it's not too late for rebranding it?
I'm not sure at this point.
I used to write quite a bit of Perl 5 and didn't really understand why Perl 6 seemed like it was trying to be everything to everyone and I didn't see what problem domain it was really the obvious choice for picking it over another easier to comprehend language.
I used to write quite a bit of Perl 5 and didn't really understand why Perl 6 seemed like it was trying to be everything to everyone and I didn't see what problem domain it was really the obvious choice for picking it over another easier to comprehend language.
That ship has sailed, I fear. The brand damage from calling it Perl 6 is old enough to drive now.
They are stuck with the community and the culture they have, I think. A different name would not change the nature of what it is.
True, but even if they had just called it Parrot or Lerp or Rakudo or really anything but Perl 6, I feel like they could have attracted the kind of new userbase to augment an already thriving community. I didn't follow along with all 594 years of development, it seemed to me like Larry just went nuts with adding every CS novelty. It didn't feel like a language for mere mortals to me anymore.
Back in the day, I wrote a load of Perl 5 and certainly used to consider myself well-versed in it.
Perl 6, at least seen through the lens of this post, doesn't appear to have fixed the write-only nature of Perl 5 and it's amazing ability to help you create truly obfuscated code first time round. No tools required.
Perl 6, at least seen through the lens of this post, doesn't appear to have fixed the write-only nature of Perl 5 and it's amazing ability to help you create truly obfuscated code first time round. No tools required.
unit module Jolly;
sub term:«\c[INVISIBLE TIMES]» is export { 42 }
sub infix:«\c[INVISIBLE TIMES]» is export {
$^a × $^b
}
sub prefix:«\c[INVISIBLE SEPARATOR]» (|)
is looser(&[,]) is export
{
say "Ho-ho-ho!";
}
say 42;
# OUTPUT:
# 1764
# Ho-ho-ho!
Perl 6 contains a bunch of really powerful tools, like the ability to create operators from any (non-whitespace) Unicode string, wrap subs and methods, or rewire the language's grammar on the fly. Unsurprisingly, this sort of power can cause a lot of trouble if used with ill-intent. It also can make for wonderfully expressive, clean programs.
With great power comes great responsibility.
> Perl 6, at least seen through the lens of this post, doesn't appear to have fixed the write-only nature of Perl 5 and it's amazing ability to help you create truly obfuscated code first time round.
Despite all evidence, the Perl community persists in considering this a feature, not a bug. Which is a big part of why the Perl community is so much smaller these days than it used to be.
Despite all evidence, the Perl community persists in considering this a feature, not a bug. Which is a big part of why the Perl community is so much smaller these days than it used to be.
It made me wonder whether OP's goal was no in fact to drive people away from Perl by posting this.
fear -> anger -> hate -> suffering
Sadly some programmers went down this path when they first encountered Perl - that gnarly Perl 5 regex that stopped them in their tracks. WTF they cried - and they never forgot that feeling.
The flipside to Perl's expressive power is the potential to disempower those that don't look deep enough to get it.
Perl 6 takes this expressivity and whipupitude to another level. I suspect this Advent post has touched a raw nerve with some commenters because they feel disempowered all over again.
Please don't be!
Perl 6 is a playful language optimised for fun: https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/perl-6-christma...
Look deeper and you'll be rewarded.
Sadly some programmers went down this path when they first encountered Perl - that gnarly Perl 5 regex that stopped them in their tracks. WTF they cried - and they never forgot that feeling.
The flipside to Perl's expressive power is the potential to disempower those that don't look deep enough to get it.
Perl 6 takes this expressivity and whipupitude to another level. I suspect this Advent post has touched a raw nerve with some commenters because they feel disempowered all over again.
Please don't be!
Perl 6 is a playful language optimised for fun: https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/perl-6-christma...
Look deeper and you'll be rewarded.
> [`but` is] an infix operator that first clones the object on the left hand side and then mixes in a role provided on the right hand side into the clone.
Yeah, thanks. I always wanted an operator that did that.
I wonder why Perl 6 hasn't caught on?
Yeah, thanks. I always wanted an operator that did that.
I wonder why Perl 6 hasn't caught on?
[deleted]
The Perl6 Advent calendars are great year after year. The language is a huge beast that demands a curious mind. You won't arrive at Perl6 if you are just looking for just a tool. If you are interested in what a modern dynamic language might look like (concurrency, gradual typing, metaprogramming), check it out.
I was interested in Perl 6 and hopeful it would fix some of the Perl 5 community’s problems until I read this post.
Now I’m wondering if the remaining Perl 6 community is just a bunch of basically compulsively clever show-off blowhards that I would never want to work with. There were always some of them with Perl 5 too (along with plenty of let’s-get-stuff-done people who I do like) but the unpleasant ones seem to have firmly taken over now. And that’s not just looking at the spirit of this blog post... it’s looking at some of the language features that they decided to have.
Now I’m wondering if the remaining Perl 6 community is just a bunch of basically compulsively clever show-off blowhards that I would never want to work with. There were always some of them with Perl 5 too (along with plenty of let’s-get-stuff-done people who I do like) but the unpleasant ones seem to have firmly taken over now. And that’s not just looking at the spirit of this blog post... it’s looking at some of the language features that they decided to have.
I'm in this camp too, knowing how Python is growing in adoption because of its stylistic expressiveness conventions I wonder what the growth rate of Perl has been. I was at a company 6 years ago that wrote Perl scripts but two companies since I have yet to see it again. Various companies I've interviewed at in the meantime don't have it as part of their tech-stack either. Where is this stuff being used exactly?
> 'That override will work even if we stick it into a module.'
That's the line where they lost me. Who wants to debug a situation where two unrelated modules clash because they wanted incompatible weird effects added to stdin? It would be better to have a situation like scala implicits, where you at least have to import the providing module to bring in the effects. Modules are only as useful as they are composable, in projects of any size.
That's the line where they lost me. Who wants to debug a situation where two unrelated modules clash because they wanted incompatible weird effects added to stdin? It would be better to have a situation like scala implicits, where you at least have to import the providing module to bring in the effects. Modules are only as useful as they are composable, in projects of any size.
Modules in Perl 6 work how you might want. The author is highlighting that the effect of the evil inside the module escapes that. So it's ultimately something you should never be doing. The whole article is a list of antipatterns/footguns many people already doing P6 would likely not have imagined. I for one had not considered just how gross the one with the mixed in role on an Int changing different kinds of addition, so evil.
In Perl6, effects of importing modules are mostly lexical, ie bound to the surrounding block.
However, this particular code basically just modifies a global variable (technically a dynamic one, but you get the point) - and modifications of global state will be globally visible no matter the language
However, this particular code basically just modifies a global variable (technically a dynamic one, but you get the point) - and modifications of global state will be globally visible no matter the language
Yeah it will pretty much always boil down to mutable global state when you have "spooky action at a distance." Like, in python, there is one import cache, so I can import os, and redefine os.pipe() to be some other function. Then any other module importing os get's MY version of pipe(). That's a recipe for disaster and of course the real-world answer in all these cases is "don't do that."
I love Perl5, smalltalk, lisp, etc., and I guess for that reason I feel like we have plenty of great languages where these hazards are exposed already. I'm not excited by yet another one. I'm more interested in new languages that attempt to allow crazy hacks in a contained way, so things still compose in the large.
I love Perl5, smalltalk, lisp, etc., and I guess for that reason I feel like we have plenty of great languages where these hazards are exposed already. I'm not excited by yet another one. I'm more interested in new languages that attempt to allow crazy hacks in a contained way, so things still compose in the large.
In the example, the effects of "use Jolly" are restricted to the enclosing scope, e.g.
use lib <.>;
{ use Jolly;
# inner scope
}
# TODO: this does not throw an errorI don’t have a problem with that. It can still be hard if you also want to “use Holly;” which wants some incompatible syntax hack, but at least it is lexically contained. I think the main reason this stuff tends to work out ok is that it’s so rare (in practice there aren’t enough Holly’s and Jolly’s in play so you don’t ever need to use both in the same scope).
This is the case in Java as well--you can redefine standard in or standard out out in any location and it will have an effect everywhere that uses the same classloader.
I did not mean to imply that it was a perl6-specific hazard, and in fact I lost interest because I can already do these kinds of hacks in languages that are decades old. The downsides are exactly the same, and the advice (“don’t do that in real code”) is exactly the same. In 2017, “look how dynamic things are” is not a differentiator... that part of language design space is pretty mature by now.
Python, too. Let's say you import some code that does this, somewhere deep inside:
try:
x = 1 / int(s)
except ZeroDivisionError, ValueError:
print "uh oh"
That particular gotcha has been fixed in Python 3:
>>> try:
... x = 1 / int(s)
... except ZeroDivisionError, ValueError:
File "<stdin>", line 3
except ZeroDivisionError, ValueError:
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
FYI: I've started an advent calendar for ruby - a language inspired by perl :-) 25 days of ruby gems / libraries from December 1 to December 25. See https://planetruby.github.io/advent2017 Enjoy.
I'm currently solving both last and this year's AoC in Perl 6. Really good fun.
Does anyone know of something equivalent to this in, for example, Python, but where the author starts off light and progressively ups the ante in terms of concepts introduced?
I'm looking to learn more about Python, but having a hard time finding a solid starting point; I've tried 'Learn Python the Hard Way', but it doesn't seem to keep me engaged to the point where the material being learned is of interest.
I'm looking to learn more about Python, but having a hard time finding a solid starting point; I've tried 'Learn Python the Hard Way', but it doesn't seem to keep me engaged to the point where the material being learned is of interest.
Check out 'Fluent Python' for juicier python concepts.
Can't recommend it enough.
Disclaimer: no affiliation whatsoever.
Can't recommend it enough.
Disclaimer: no affiliation whatsoever.
> Check out 'Fluent Python' for juicier python concepts.
One of the best Python books I've read!
But I would never recommend it to a (Python) beginner. There are more 'lightweight' books/solutions for beginner.
If GP is somewhat experienced in Python and would like to broaden his knowledge - Fluent Python all the way!
One of the best Python books I've read!
But I would never recommend it to a (Python) beginner. There are more 'lightweight' books/solutions for beginner.
If GP is somewhat experienced in Python and would like to broaden his knowledge - Fluent Python all the way!
Not sure if it counts, but High Performance Python[0] starts you out from the bottom explaining the hardware and how it has to process your code, and they go from there. It's a really good read, was recommended by a coworker and I haven't had issues reading through it so far. Also you might learn things to consider when writing or refactoring Python code that affect performance (I always suggest never to "solve" a performance issue that isn't there yet but to instead write something that works first, then try to optimize the code once it works).
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028963.do
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028963.do
You might want to check out "Don't Do This" [0], which is basically a Python version of this article.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yfXnUb1S4
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yfXnUb1S4
There is a book you can try: "Automate the Boring Stuff with Python"
https://automatetheboringstuff.com/
https://automatetheboringstuff.com/
yup, this is a good resource for beginner
and related udemy course free offer ends today, see author's post for details (https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/7fxq5o/im...)
and related udemy course free offer ends today, see author's post for details (https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/7fxq5o/im...)
I believe Peter Norvig's Pytudes[1] might be similar to what you are looking for. I enjoyed reading his Advent of Code post last year[2]
[1]https://github.com/norvig/pytudes
[2]https://nbviewer.jupyter.org/url/norvig.com/ipython/Advent%2...
[1]https://github.com/norvig/pytudes
[2]https://nbviewer.jupyter.org/url/norvig.com/ipython/Advent%2...
An operator for each of the 18000 days of Christmas!
The community and marketing around perl6 has gone almost as weird as the urbit folks.
Why on earth do you consider this "marketing". I just signed up for writing the 16th entry. Im just some random Perl 6 programmer. My motivation for writing an article is to share something I think is interesting with the community...
Sorry to offend you. I used the term "community" as well to capture that. I also used the term "weird" as it is not inherently negative.
i guess if you dont know what a role is in perl6, its futile to try to read this article
this is an article for people who already know perl6, and know it well
i doubt this is meant to promote perl6 outside of the perl6 community
this is an article for people who already know perl6, and know it well
i doubt this is meant to promote perl6 outside of the perl6 community
Role == Mixin == Interface Its not meant to promote anything, this article especially is more a challenge. The point of all tech advents IMHO is for the community to have something nice to open in the morning with their coffee. This certainly achieved that.
There is also a separate advent calendar for Perl 5.
http://perladvent.org/2017/
http://perladvent.org/2017/
Can someone explain this code in English? Is any of this actually useful, in Perl 6 or otherwise?
Define "useful" none of it is something you'd ever write or use for any real world task. Its useful to illustrate some of the corners of the language that could cause problems if they were ever abused in horrific/wonderful ways.
Somebody must have thought "but" was a useful operator at some point. But from this demo I have absolutely no idea what it does.
It mixes in additional features to a given instance
I think this was added as a generalization which replaces the following in Perl 5.
my $old = 0;
my $val = $old but True;
say $old.Bool; # False
say $val.Bool; # True
say $val.Numeric; # 0
my $old = 0;
my $val = class :: is Int {
method Bool (){ True }
}.new( $old )
say $old.Bool; # False
say $val.Bool; # True
say $val.Numeric; # 0
I think this was added as a generalization which replaces the following in Perl 5.
my $val = "0 but true";
say $val ? "True" : "False"; # True
say 0+$val; # 0Honestly, I couldn't tell whether this was a satire. Does anyone know the author's intent: are they genuinely excited about the stuff in this post or are they horrified?
My mind was so blown after day 1 of this advent calendar that I think reading the remaining 24 days might be hazardous to my sanity.
My mind was so blown after day 1 of this advent calendar that I think reading the remaining 24 days might be hazardous to my sanity.
I think at this point they've been doing Advent calendars for Perl 6 for enough years that they are reaching some more esoteric features.
A year or two ago I decided that Perl 6 was too far along the spectrum of complexity and required front-loading of learning the language for my tastes. I program Perl 5 for a living, and love it, but I feel Perl 6 has too much stuff built in for be to devote the time to actually learning it all usefully enough to want to do anything professional in it, or want to use anything professionally written in it that I might have to poke in the code. And this comes as someone that followed development since the Parrot days, and actually read through all the Synopsis documents almost a decade ago.
That said, it's likely a phenomenally fun language to play with (it's even fun to read about development of, and novel solution in, IMO). I've seen really clever solutions using the interesting features it has (and it has a LOT of interesting features). Built in grammars, for example, are something I think is awesome, and simplify a lot of parsing code to the point of triviality.
There's a spectrum of features, which at some point starts mapping fairly evenly to TIMTOWTDI. On this spectrum I find Python too stifling, Perl 5 a happy medium, and Perl 6 providing way too much freedom (at least for work related things).
A year or two ago I decided that Perl 6 was too far along the spectrum of complexity and required front-loading of learning the language for my tastes. I program Perl 5 for a living, and love it, but I feel Perl 6 has too much stuff built in for be to devote the time to actually learning it all usefully enough to want to do anything professional in it, or want to use anything professionally written in it that I might have to poke in the code. And this comes as someone that followed development since the Parrot days, and actually read through all the Synopsis documents almost a decade ago.
That said, it's likely a phenomenally fun language to play with (it's even fun to read about development of, and novel solution in, IMO). I've seen really clever solutions using the interesting features it has (and it has a LOT of interesting features). Built in grammars, for example, are something I think is awesome, and simplify a lot of parsing code to the point of triviality.
There's a spectrum of features, which at some point starts mapping fairly evenly to TIMTOWTDI. On this spectrum I find Python too stifling, Perl 5 a happy medium, and Perl 6 providing way too much freedom (at least for work related things).
Actually I think you have that backwards, as far as front-loading.
For just about everything you do in Perl 5 there is an equivalent in Perl 6 that is simpler to remember and is more general in its use.
For example using an iterator variable other than `$_` in a for loop:
Perl 5:
The other day I was trying to remember how to alias two subroutines in Perl 5;
I will note that this mutability makes it so that for example OO::Monitors http://modules.perl6.org/dist/OO::Monitors:github:Jonathan%2... can be made easily.
The mutability is also the reason you can import modules from other languages as if they were written in Perl 6. You just have to make sure you have the appropriate Inline module installed and loaded.
For just about everything you do in Perl 5 there is an equivalent in Perl 6 that is simpler to remember and is more general in its use.
For example using an iterator variable other than `$_` in a for loop:
Perl 5:
for my $line (...) {...}
for (...) -> $line {...}
if $a.method() -> $result {...}
@a.sort( -> $a, $b {...} )
The other day I was trying to remember how to alias two subroutines in Perl 5;
*foo = \&bar;
my &foo = &bar;
I will note that this mutability makes it so that for example OO::Monitors http://modules.perl6.org/dist/OO::Monitors:github:Jonathan%2... can be made easily.
The mutability is also the reason you can import modules from other languages as if they were written in Perl 6. You just have to make sure you have the appropriate Inline module installed and loaded.
My point is that while some of this is intuitive and carries throughout the language, I think they went too far by not just adding a new way of doing things that's consistent, they kept the old way(s) as well, and usually added a second new way to do something.
In an effort to keep the language similar looking to those used to Perl 5, there's both functions and methods for almost all core operations. You can call:
It looks interesting, and when presented together, it seems concise and easy to understand, but the truth is that nothing keeps the functions definitions all that local, so it allows for your execution branching and logic to be spread into disparate files, and a later addition of a function or method to change the control flow of the program. Given that these signatures also take into account subtyping, where it's often not possible to figure out where a call will resolve to prior to runtime, and not even good tooling is going to help you. Add in possible coercion, and it's even more complicated.
I love Perl, and I love having options, but as with everything in live, there's a happy medium, and places where you can go too far and not far enough. I think Perl 6 went too far with choices, and what's more it completely lost the thread with steering people towards the better way of doing things, which was also a big part of Perl 5 in my experience.
I really started seeing this when Larry starting playing with using sigilless variables. I suspect Larry was using them because he could and to have fun, but I really couldn't see the positive of them. In a language where you expect variables to have sigils and other identifiers to be functions (or constants, usually defined as simple functions), it really pointed to a problem in the design process to me. Just because something can be included, doesn't mean it should be, and blindly stuffing everything into the language and assuming that you can make them play together just as well as a slightly smaller set of features that's more curated smacks of a bit too much hubris.
To return to my point of too many options and features, if Perl 6 had actually been willing to do away with the syntax of Perl 5 and just go with the method syntax, I think that would have gone a long way towards keeping the things a reader had to keep in mind while reading it down. I understand why they didn't, because I've been following it from the beginning, but that doesn't mean what we're left with is a good situation. It parallels the name situation in a lot of ways. The biggest problems Perl 5 and Perl 6 ever had were each other, which is a shame. Both languages are wonderful in their own way, and would have been better off much more loosely associated. Unfortunately, that boat sailed a decade or more ago.
Sorry if I went a little overboard, but this has been percolating for a while now.
In an effort to keep the language similar looking to those used to Perl 5, there's both functions and methods for almost all core operations. You can call:
@a.sort( -> $a, $b {...} )
sort( -> $a, $b {...}, @a);
sort( sub { ... }, @a);
sort sub { ... }, @a;
sort { ... }, @a;
It looks interesting, and when presented together, it seems concise and easy to understand, but the truth is that nothing keeps the functions definitions all that local, so it allows for your execution branching and logic to be spread into disparate files, and a later addition of a function or method to change the control flow of the program. Given that these signatures also take into account subtyping, where it's often not possible to figure out where a call will resolve to prior to runtime, and not even good tooling is going to help you. Add in possible coercion, and it's even more complicated.
I love Perl, and I love having options, but as with everything in live, there's a happy medium, and places where you can go too far and not far enough. I think Perl 6 went too far with choices, and what's more it completely lost the thread with steering people towards the better way of doing things, which was also a big part of Perl 5 in my experience.
I really started seeing this when Larry starting playing with using sigilless variables. I suspect Larry was using them because he could and to have fun, but I really couldn't see the positive of them. In a language where you expect variables to have sigils and other identifiers to be functions (or constants, usually defined as simple functions), it really pointed to a problem in the design process to me. Just because something can be included, doesn't mean it should be, and blindly stuffing everything into the language and assuming that you can make them play together just as well as a slightly smaller set of features that's more curated smacks of a bit too much hubris.
To return to my point of too many options and features, if Perl 6 had actually been willing to do away with the syntax of Perl 5 and just go with the method syntax, I think that would have gone a long way towards keeping the things a reader had to keep in mind while reading it down. I understand why they didn't, because I've been following it from the beginning, but that doesn't mean what we're left with is a good situation. It parallels the name situation in a lot of ways. The biggest problems Perl 5 and Perl 6 ever had were each other, which is a shame. Both languages are wonderful in their own way, and would have been better off much more loosely associated. Unfortunately, that boat sailed a decade or more ago.
Sorry if I went a little overboard, but this has been percolating for a while now.
http://www.perladvent.org/2017/ might be a better link.
No; OP is about Perl 6 while this link is about Perl 5.
Perl 5 (a.k.a Perl) and Perl 6 are different languages.
Perl 5 (a.k.a Perl) and Perl 6 are different languages.
I think you just got the "joke".
Love Christmas Camelia!
#!/usr/bin/env perl
python, ruby, perl5 ... agile and fun to work with.
perl5 is the fastest. Being around for so long means there are a lot of libraries at http://metacpan.org/ . If interested, search for... "twitter", "google", "oauth", or any other technology/api to find out there are a lot of new and maintened libraries.
perl5 libraries have great documentation, ie:
- https://metacpan.org/pod/AnyEvent::Memcached
- https://metacpan.org/pod/distribution/Net-Twitter/lib/Net/Tw...
A lot of perl communication happens directly with developers over IRC. Yes, perl community runs irc.perl .. if IRC is not your thing, you can email the developer shown at metacpan (example in links above)
Also not less important is the fact every library uploaded to metacpan gets tested in multiple platforms: https://cpantesters.org/distro/U/uri.html And, what this means is the library author uploads the library and 2 days later its possible to check if library is broken in any platform.
And of course a lot of top notch sites use perl. Many dont promote it, but check metacpan.org home for example of some sponsors.
Too bad some people that never learned perl spread the wrong message.
It is a great language. And perl6 is another language that just happens to be named "perl" and was developed in conjunction with top perl5/other lang. developers.
exit;
python, ruby, perl5 ... agile and fun to work with.
perl5 is the fastest. Being around for so long means there are a lot of libraries at http://metacpan.org/ . If interested, search for... "twitter", "google", "oauth", or any other technology/api to find out there are a lot of new and maintened libraries.
perl5 libraries have great documentation, ie:
- https://metacpan.org/pod/AnyEvent::Memcached
- https://metacpan.org/pod/distribution/Net-Twitter/lib/Net/Tw...
A lot of perl communication happens directly with developers over IRC. Yes, perl community runs irc.perl .. if IRC is not your thing, you can email the developer shown at metacpan (example in links above)
Also not less important is the fact every library uploaded to metacpan gets tested in multiple platforms: https://cpantesters.org/distro/U/uri.html And, what this means is the library author uploads the library and 2 days later its possible to check if library is broken in any platform.
And of course a lot of top notch sites use perl. Many dont promote it, but check metacpan.org home for example of some sponsors.
Too bad some people that never learned perl spread the wrong message.
It is a great language. And perl6 is another language that just happens to be named "perl" and was developed in conjunction with top perl5/other lang. developers.
exit;
You chose exceptional libraries to provide as examples. It's my experience that a huge chunk of modules on CPAN are not well maintained, suffer from poor implementation decisions, have decade old bugs, or just have plain bad documentation.
Perl5 despite its warts is a decent "just get moving" language, but it's easy to get frustrated with some of the community modules.
Perl5 despite its warts is a decent "just get moving" language, but it's easy to get frustrated with some of the community modules.
"Plain bad documentation" on CPAN? It is unfair...
Like every other language.. there are bad code and good code.
Some developers went so creative they use that (ascii draw) to test if next releases of perl are backwards compatible:
- https://metacpan.org/pod/Acme::EyeDrops
Yes, thats another positive about perl5, the code that ran 10 years ago will run the same way today
Some developers went so creative they use that (ascii draw) to test if next releases of perl are backwards compatible:
- https://metacpan.org/pod/Acme::EyeDrops
Yes, thats another positive about perl5, the code that ran 10 years ago will run the same way today
Like every language yes but Perl has an especially pernicious aspect: with Perl TIMTOWTDI is an encouraged and nurtured pathology that got way out of hand. Perl encourages many petri dishes and cross fertilization (or pollination or contamination or pick your word) of everything that springs up. Sounds fun at first, but it becomes a mess. Other languages have cultures (no pun intended) that are more actively encouraging of sticking to best practices.
> Other languages have cultures (no pun intended) that are more actively encouraging of sticking to best practices.
I'm actually not so sure about that. Besides Python, which espouses a "one true way", Perl culture emphasizes idiomatic code quite heavily (because that emphasis is helpful with all the options), and that usually lends itself to just a few obvious ways to approach a problem (at least at the level where this is event different between most languages. That is, well below the architecture level, which has largely language agnostic common problems). TIMTOWDI doesn't mean use all the different ways all the time[1], but is an acknowledgement that in some circumstances some ways are more intuitive and obvious that others, and this may change depending on circumstance. Esoteric and unnecessarily complex syntax is highly frowned upon
In Perl 5, if I want to perform an action on all items in an array, such as incrementing them (or concatenating, or passing to a function, etc), the following is obvious and succinct:
Edit: Since you likely have enough experience with Perl to have your own strong opinion on this topic, please take this less as a reply to you, and more as my take on the idea in general.
I'm actually not so sure about that. Besides Python, which espouses a "one true way", Perl culture emphasizes idiomatic code quite heavily (because that emphasis is helpful with all the options), and that usually lends itself to just a few obvious ways to approach a problem (at least at the level where this is event different between most languages. That is, well below the architecture level, which has largely language agnostic common problems). TIMTOWDI doesn't mean use all the different ways all the time[1], but is an acknowledgement that in some circumstances some ways are more intuitive and obvious that others, and this may change depending on circumstance. Esoteric and unnecessarily complex syntax is highly frowned upon
In Perl 5, if I want to perform an action on all items in an array, such as incrementing them (or concatenating, or passing to a function, etc), the following is obvious and succinct:
$_++ for @my_array;
for ( @my_array ) {
$_++;
}
Edit: Since you likely have enough experience with Perl to have your own strong opinion on this topic, please take this less as a reply to you, and more as my take on the idea in general.
To answer some of the comments: no, this isn't satire, nor is it a marketing or advertisement piece.
I'm just having fun with the language and wrote a post in the voice of The Grinch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinch). It's meant to be mean. That's all there is to it. Tomorrow's article (coincidentally, also written by me), will have a more sober tone and will describe Perl 6's system of containers and variables. See if you like it more.
I'm OK if you don't like Perl 6 :) That's why we have so many different wonderful languages: everyone can find what they love. I love Perl 6. You should try it out.