Kicking off Stripe’s private beta in India(stripe.com)
stripe.com
Kicking off Stripe’s private beta in India
https://stripe.com/blog/india-private-beta
48 comments
Also is pretty active on his (very good, IMO) technical blog:
https://brandur.org/articles
https://brandur.org/articles
Oh god, thanks so much for this. I've literally just been testing on prod and praying that it works.
You know you can generate a API test token and use one of test card numbers for all your testing purposes. There is a toggle in your main dashboard which will let you switch between sandbox/test mode and production for viewing charges etc.
This assumes you have internet connection always when developing/running tests, which is not always the case.
I always to rely on local tools/endpoints so when I'm offline, I can still continue working. Don't use Stripe as much as before but I definitely I wished I had this mock when implementing Stripe in applications I worked on.
I always to rely on local tools/endpoints so when I'm offline, I can still continue working. Don't use Stripe as much as before but I definitely I wished I had this mock when implementing Stripe in applications I worked on.
I have really high hopes from this. There is currently no good way for a SaaS startup in India to get money from international customers. I think this is why many are forced to incorporate in the US/Singapore/etc. I am a single founder working on a SaaS project and receiving payments from outside India is one of the biggest challenges for me. I do not want to raise funds but may have to got that route just so that I can incorporate outside India and start receiving payments.
I have three requests for Stripe:
1) I hope that Stripe does not come out with a limited version for India, and that it is possible to charge international customers a variable amount every month, like you can do in the US.
2) I also hope that they come up with a prompt way of issuing FIRCs for every payment received. Without an FIRC there is no way to prove that the transaction was an export and therefore you have to pay GST on it, which is normally 18% for services. This reason alone is pushing me to incorporate in some other country. I stand to lose thousands of dollars this year because I can't get an FIRC for the payments I receive via Paypal/Wire transfer/Transferwise.
Paypal and Transferwise have procedures to get FIRCs, but when you approach their banks they either don't respond or come up with hundred reasons to not issue one. Citibank absolutely sucks at this. I really hope that Stripe just charges me whatever they want and couriers the FIRCs to my address automatically.
3) I hope that Stripe has a legal setup that is compatible with RBI regulations regarding the filling up of SOFTEX forms. There are some restrictions which in my understanding prohibit Indians from using international gateways like fastspring.
I have three requests for Stripe:
1) I hope that Stripe does not come out with a limited version for India, and that it is possible to charge international customers a variable amount every month, like you can do in the US.
2) I also hope that they come up with a prompt way of issuing FIRCs for every payment received. Without an FIRC there is no way to prove that the transaction was an export and therefore you have to pay GST on it, which is normally 18% for services. This reason alone is pushing me to incorporate in some other country. I stand to lose thousands of dollars this year because I can't get an FIRC for the payments I receive via Paypal/Wire transfer/Transferwise.
Paypal and Transferwise have procedures to get FIRCs, but when you approach their banks they either don't respond or come up with hundred reasons to not issue one. Citibank absolutely sucks at this. I really hope that Stripe just charges me whatever they want and couriers the FIRCs to my address automatically.
3) I hope that Stripe has a legal setup that is compatible with RBI regulations regarding the filling up of SOFTEX forms. There are some restrictions which in my understanding prohibit Indians from using international gateways like fastspring.
How does paddle.com handle this? They take over as merchant of record, and so technically they're selling your SaaS and paying you royalties via a reverse invoice. Any idea if they need to or give our FIRCs?
Are you suggesting that paddle.com gets around the RBI restrictions for companies based outside of India selling to Indians?
Not really - they're a London based company, and they follow whatever laws are applicable in the country of each customer (EU gets VAT, India gets GST, US gets nothing), etc.
If I work with them, the idea is that I've sold my product to them, so I'm exporting it to a company in London. I'll need to either pay or get exemptions for my taxes based on export rules. They re-sell it worldwide and handle whatever country specific rules are prevalent in each country, but that's not my problem any more.
If I work with them, the idea is that I've sold my product to them, so I'm exporting it to a company in London. I'll need to either pay or get exemptions for my taxes based on export rules. They re-sell it worldwide and handle whatever country specific rules are prevalent in each country, but that's not my problem any more.
Have you tried using fastspring? Its expensive but seems to allow serving both indian and other country cards. Also if u open a export account (forgot what its called, but basically an account with an indian bank where u can deposit in $ or any specified currency), then fastspring can deposit the money there. You can then transfer it to ur rupee checking account at anytime and dont think u need any FIRC there. This is what we did a few years back for my startup (based in India), but not sure if things have changed recently.
> 3) I hope that Stripe has a legal setup that is compatible with RBI regulations regarding the filling up of SOFTEX forms. There are some restrictions which in my understanding prohibit Indians from using international gateways like fastspring.
What exactly are the restrictions? Curious to know as I was planning to use FastSpring until Stripe made the announcement.
The bigger problem is the strict RBI regulations. Especially when dealing with FIRC/e-BRC and filing of SOFTEX forms. I don't understand why these forms are even required to be filed as everything is recorded electronically (bank wire transfers and other modes of transfer: NEFT/RTGS/IMPS). It's almost like the RBI doubts the intentions of Software Exporters.
> Paypal and Transferwise have procedures to get FIRCs, but when you approach their banks they either don't respond or come up with hundred reasons to not issue one. Citibank absolutely sucks at this. I really hope that Stripe just charges me whatever they want and couriers the FIRCs to my address automatically.
The thing is that Citibank doesn't provide FIRC (unless you receive an FDI). It instead provides "FIRC Advise". The Authorized Dealer (the Bank you hold your Current Account in) has to issue you the FIRC based on the FIRC Advise provided by CitiBank. But the AD Bank will insist on getting a NOC (No-Objection Certificate) first! So it's a long drawn out process! And once the FIRC is issued, getting eBRC from the AD Bank is another headache (as you guessed, it requires certified SOFTEX).
I just don't get the reason for all these ridiculous regulations. The real problem, I guess, lies in the fact that RBI is treating all Software Exports similar to exports for other Goods/Services. Purchase Orders are needed as proof for certification of SOFTEX forms when you and I both know that in SaaS or other software product sales there is no necessity for a PO (unless a big corporate wants to purchase in bulk) for export to take place.
Also, please sign these petitions:
1. https://www.change.org/p/finance-ministry-of-india-rationali... 2. https://www.change.org/p/shri-arun-jaitley-finance-minister-...
and if possible, do spread the word!
What exactly are the restrictions? Curious to know as I was planning to use FastSpring until Stripe made the announcement.
The bigger problem is the strict RBI regulations. Especially when dealing with FIRC/e-BRC and filing of SOFTEX forms. I don't understand why these forms are even required to be filed as everything is recorded electronically (bank wire transfers and other modes of transfer: NEFT/RTGS/IMPS). It's almost like the RBI doubts the intentions of Software Exporters.
> Paypal and Transferwise have procedures to get FIRCs, but when you approach their banks they either don't respond or come up with hundred reasons to not issue one. Citibank absolutely sucks at this. I really hope that Stripe just charges me whatever they want and couriers the FIRCs to my address automatically.
The thing is that Citibank doesn't provide FIRC (unless you receive an FDI). It instead provides "FIRC Advise". The Authorized Dealer (the Bank you hold your Current Account in) has to issue you the FIRC based on the FIRC Advise provided by CitiBank. But the AD Bank will insist on getting a NOC (No-Objection Certificate) first! So it's a long drawn out process! And once the FIRC is issued, getting eBRC from the AD Bank is another headache (as you guessed, it requires certified SOFTEX).
I just don't get the reason for all these ridiculous regulations. The real problem, I guess, lies in the fact that RBI is treating all Software Exports similar to exports for other Goods/Services. Purchase Orders are needed as proof for certification of SOFTEX forms when you and I both know that in SaaS or other software product sales there is no necessity for a PO (unless a big corporate wants to purchase in bulk) for export to take place.
Also, please sign these petitions:
1. https://www.change.org/p/finance-ministry-of-india-rationali... 2. https://www.change.org/p/shri-arun-jaitley-finance-minister-...
and if possible, do spread the word!
> What exactly are the restrictions? Curious to know as I was planning to use FastSpring until Stripe made the announcement.
Honestly I don't remember perfectly, but here is what I think: the relationship between Fastspring and you is that of a payment processor. If you go through the Softex regulations and RBI regulations for payment processors, at some point there is a requirement that the payment processor must have a bank account with an Indian bank overseas. The money must be routed through this Indian bank's overseas branch. This is the only allowed way to receive money from payment processors for exports. Obviously, Fastspring is not obliged to carry out business this way and they probably route money through a bank account of the country they are established in.
The workaround is to say that Fastspring is not your payment processor but your client, and then raise invoices against Fastspring for the amounts you receive from them, and declare those in SOFTEX. So instead of 1000 transactions of $10 towards a thousand customers, you show a single transaction of $10,000 towards Fastspring. But this approach seems wrong on so many levels. For one, you may end up raising those thousand invoices and mailing them to your customers anyways even if you don't account for them internally. Secondly, I think the wording of the contract between Fastspring and suggests that of a payment processor, and you are the entity liable towards those 1000 customers, not Fastspring.
One could also say that you are Fastspring's customer and you are importing their payment processing services, and so even after complying with other regulations, you need to pay reverse GST of 18% on their commission as import of services if they are not paying the same.
Saying all that, I am a programmer and hate to wear the legal/accountant hat. But this is just what I could make out.
> The thing is that Citibank doesn't provide FIRC (unless you receive an FDI). It instead provides "FIRC Advise". The Authorized Dealer (the Bank you hold your Current Account in) has to issue you the FIRC based on the FIRC Advise provided by CitiBank. But the AD Bank will insist on getting a NOC (No-Objection Certificate) first! So it's a long drawn out process! And once the FIRC is issued, getting eBRC from the AD Bank is another headache (as you guessed, it requires certified SOFTEX).
So many acronyms! Way too complex for me. But thanks for clarifying and connecting the dots for me. I think I finally understand the process. However, in my experience, every bank I have dealt with has shown me circular SPL-09/2016 from FEDAI [0] that unconditionally says that " FIRC may be issued only for inward remittances covering FDI/FII." So they will not issue an FIRC no matter what, even if you take the SOFTEX out of equation. SOFTEX only compounds the difficulty. I am convinced that none of the banks are going to issue me an FIRC no matter what letter or document I show to them. I can't even get an FIRC or an eBRC for a wire transfer.
I have personally given up. I will wait for the government to rationalise the SOFTEX requirements and bring back the $20k transaction threshold below which you did not need to file SOFTEX, and somehow make the FIRC process automatic. Till then I am just paying the 18% GST which I should not have to, and classifying my services as "other engineering services" to avoid SOFTEX. I haven't registered with any STPI for SOFTEX yet.
I will sign the petitions you shared.
[0]: https://www.icicibank.com/managed-assets/docs/business/FEDAI...
Honestly I don't remember perfectly, but here is what I think: the relationship between Fastspring and you is that of a payment processor. If you go through the Softex regulations and RBI regulations for payment processors, at some point there is a requirement that the payment processor must have a bank account with an Indian bank overseas. The money must be routed through this Indian bank's overseas branch. This is the only allowed way to receive money from payment processors for exports. Obviously, Fastspring is not obliged to carry out business this way and they probably route money through a bank account of the country they are established in.
The workaround is to say that Fastspring is not your payment processor but your client, and then raise invoices against Fastspring for the amounts you receive from them, and declare those in SOFTEX. So instead of 1000 transactions of $10 towards a thousand customers, you show a single transaction of $10,000 towards Fastspring. But this approach seems wrong on so many levels. For one, you may end up raising those thousand invoices and mailing them to your customers anyways even if you don't account for them internally. Secondly, I think the wording of the contract between Fastspring and suggests that of a payment processor, and you are the entity liable towards those 1000 customers, not Fastspring.
One could also say that you are Fastspring's customer and you are importing their payment processing services, and so even after complying with other regulations, you need to pay reverse GST of 18% on their commission as import of services if they are not paying the same.
Saying all that, I am a programmer and hate to wear the legal/accountant hat. But this is just what I could make out.
> The thing is that Citibank doesn't provide FIRC (unless you receive an FDI). It instead provides "FIRC Advise". The Authorized Dealer (the Bank you hold your Current Account in) has to issue you the FIRC based on the FIRC Advise provided by CitiBank. But the AD Bank will insist on getting a NOC (No-Objection Certificate) first! So it's a long drawn out process! And once the FIRC is issued, getting eBRC from the AD Bank is another headache (as you guessed, it requires certified SOFTEX).
So many acronyms! Way too complex for me. But thanks for clarifying and connecting the dots for me. I think I finally understand the process. However, in my experience, every bank I have dealt with has shown me circular SPL-09/2016 from FEDAI [0] that unconditionally says that " FIRC may be issued only for inward remittances covering FDI/FII." So they will not issue an FIRC no matter what, even if you take the SOFTEX out of equation. SOFTEX only compounds the difficulty. I am convinced that none of the banks are going to issue me an FIRC no matter what letter or document I show to them. I can't even get an FIRC or an eBRC for a wire transfer.
I have personally given up. I will wait for the government to rationalise the SOFTEX requirements and bring back the $20k transaction threshold below which you did not need to file SOFTEX, and somehow make the FIRC process automatic. Till then I am just paying the 18% GST which I should not have to, and classifying my services as "other engineering services" to avoid SOFTEX. I haven't registered with any STPI for SOFTEX yet.
I will sign the petitions you shared.
[0]: https://www.icicibank.com/managed-assets/docs/business/FEDAI...
Oh god yes, thank you! I've wanted this for so long. I'm building a SaaS and I seriously considered paying $500 for Stripe Atlas to incorporate in the US just for Stripe. (I don't expect my crowd to be from any particular country, so a global payments vendor is the best option.)
The state of payments here is sub-par; while providers are still coming up, the documentation is just not sufficient (at least not up to Stripe's standards), the APIs are a bit convoluted, and the whole thing feels shaky. Plus, Stripe is trusted by customers, so I bet at least a few of them would be more comfortable if they see the familiar Stripe payment form.
The state of payments here is sub-par; while providers are still coming up, the documentation is just not sufficient (at least not up to Stripe's standards), the APIs are a bit convoluted, and the whole thing feels shaky. Plus, Stripe is trusted by customers, so I bet at least a few of them would be more comfortable if they see the familiar Stripe payment form.
I agree with you. The timing couldn't be better and I've tried most of the other payment processors but I didn't find them usable at all. Waiting eagerly to get my invite and hope this isn't some crippled version due to RBI regulations.
>In just the past two years, the percentage of India’s population connected to the internet has more than doubled to 500 million users
This is the statistic that will change the world more than a little bit. This is partly because the richest man in India has spent $25bn on telecom infrastructure and acquisition of new customers.
Here's a related article - https://www.economist.com/news/business/21718495-jios-100m-n...
This is the statistic that will change the world more than a little bit. This is partly because the richest man in India has spent $25bn on telecom infrastructure and acquisition of new customers.
Here's a related article - https://www.economist.com/news/business/21718495-jios-100m-n...
This is going to be tough. The competition in payment ecosystem is pretty hot in India. You have Alibaba funded paytm with about 250 million users. They provide digital wallet services which can be used for buying anything from flights tickets to electronics online or paying for Uber. Apart from that they are also present offline, you can but grocery or even tea with that. Additionally they also have payments bank licence so you can have your bank account there itself. Then there is Jio money funded by India s richest man which also operates in telecom and has roughly 100 million users, they also have a payments bank licence. Finally there is Amazon pay, which is moving slowly but has recently tied up with lot of websites for movies or online food delivery. So the competition is likely to be fierce.
YC has funded 2 Indian startups in this space: Razorpay, and Cashfree, and now Stripe has also entered the space. Along with the startups some big banks are also in the fray. I started with HDFC payments for my company's payments but moved away from them; they expect you to work at their pace. That'd have killed us by now. I wrote about my payment experiences here: https://blog.simplyguest.com/payments/simplyguest-payments.h...
Hi Subbu,
The canonical url for your page is set to http://localhost:4000/payments/simplyguest-payments.html . That is not the best option for SEO :)
The canonical url for your page is set to http://localhost:4000/payments/simplyguest-payments.html . That is not the best option for SEO :)
Thank you, Sharmi. I really appreciate you taking out time to look at the source and point out the issue. I have fixed the canonical url. I also noticed the feed url was wrong too. I have fixed that as well :)
None of those support payments from customers outside India, a requirement most online businesses have.
What's the credit/debit card penetration like in India? I recall most transactions happening in cash when i visited a few years ago. Which also led to amazon and flipkart offering cash on delivery payment methods.
Did something change in relation to that? coz if not then stripe is gonna have a hard time finding customers
Did something change in relation to that? coz if not then stripe is gonna have a hard time finding customers
Others have pointed it out that it may but its also for Indian startups being able to easily accept payments internationally without setting up a US company.
Yes, last year's demonetization changed it all.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/12/14/inside-i...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/12/14/inside-i...
When I started accepting online payments for simplyguest.com the percentage was less than 50%. Customers preferred to pay cash, but cash is difficult to manage, so I started pushing towards online payments. My cash collection this month was less than 2%. I am trying to avoid this as well.
As businesses realize cash is not easy to scale, and if they are ambitious enough, they will push their customers towards credit/debit cards and other scalable channels.
As businesses realize cash is not easy to scale, and if they are ambitious enough, they will push their customers towards credit/debit cards and other scalable channels.
> Did something change in relation to that?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonet...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonet...
Digital wallet is the new thing.
It would be interesting to watch Stripe competing with the Razorpay which started as the Stripe of India. Both are funded by YC.
Wait, YC would fund a startup that's a competitor to one of its other startups? Huh, this is news for me (and it opens up the possibility of me applying to YC; previously I was apprehensive because YC had funded a direct competitor ~10 years ago).
RazorPay is India-focused and started a few years ago.
Until they came around, there were few (zero?) payment gateways that fulfilled all the following criteria:
* Clean API
* Support India-focused payment options (netbanking is huge here. And Razorpay also supports digital-wallets)
* Easy to get started fast with less paperwork
For every other payment gateway, you had to go through a papertrail before you could even tryout the sandbox API.
I remember Razorpay (initially atleast) required only PAN and allowed individuals to start accepting payments. This IMHO is huge indie-friendly. And back then, for every payment gateway you had to be a registered company. Not sure if that relaxed rule translated to an uptick in growth.
* Clean API
* Support India-focused payment options (netbanking is huge here. And Razorpay also supports digital-wallets)
* Easy to get started fast with less paperwork
For every other payment gateway, you had to go through a papertrail before you could even tryout the sandbox API.
I remember Razorpay (initially atleast) required only PAN and allowed individuals to start accepting payments. This IMHO is huge indie-friendly. And back then, for every payment gateway you had to be a registered company. Not sure if that relaxed rule translated to an uptick in growth.
I think YC funds competitors often (not sure how often). For example, Amplitude and Mixpanel are both YC companies.
https://www.quora.com/Would-Y-Combinator-invest-in-a-company...
https://www.quora.com/Would-Y-Combinator-invest-in-a-company...
Is the Indian Stripe account same in functionality as the US account? Or is it restricted in some way due to the strict RBI rules in India?
Hopefully without restrictions! Fingers crossed!
If it's going to be restricted in some major way, then there won't be any difference between Stripe and say PayPal which makes it a non-starter.
RBI really needs to loosen up a bit, especially when it comes to over-regulation of the Software sector.
If it's going to be restricted in some major way, then there won't be any difference between Stripe and say PayPal which makes it a non-starter.
RBI really needs to loosen up a bit, especially when it comes to over-regulation of the Software sector.
We run a single product web store in India that has modest monthly transaction volume and care about the user experience a lot.
All processors are required to do 3D Secure verification. Local processors have integration for NetBanking. International ones are card only but may have better developer experience. Apple Pay uses 3D Secure too but bypasses two-factor verfication by tokenization.
Reliability/sucess rate is no longer as big of a deal with most competent processors. We've found the need to build custom tooling and abuse data more important for the Indian ecosystem.
All processors are required to do 3D Secure verification. Local processors have integration for NetBanking. International ones are card only but may have better developer experience. Apple Pay uses 3D Secure too but bypasses two-factor verfication by tokenization.
Reliability/sucess rate is no longer as big of a deal with most competent processors. We've found the need to build custom tooling and abuse data more important for the Indian ecosystem.
Yeah, this is the real question. I really hope this will have feature parity. At least the basic things like recurring payments in foreign currencies and stuff like that.
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I'm still waiting for Stripe to launch in the UK's Crown Dependencies. I'm based in Jersey, and we have no (easy) marketplace payment solution.
Currently using Safecharge, which is quite good, however the setup process requires submitting 10+ documents with details on the company structure, UBOs and nature of business.
Currently using Safecharge, which is quite good, however the setup process requires submitting 10+ documents with details on the company structure, UBOs and nature of business.
Razorpay (funded by YC) is a competitor to Stripe in India.
Has anyone tried using it?
How was your experience?
A couple of months back I wanted to try Razorpay for receiving payments from my app users. Just like donate button in PayPal. But Razorpay was not supporting independent developers at that time.
While Stripe supports this feature beautifully, it wasn't supporting in India. Now I'm excited to hear this news.
While Stripe supports this feature beautifully, it wasn't supporting in India. Now I'm excited to hear this news.
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Can you do subscriptions, how does it work with the compulsory 3D secure rules?
Does this allow companies outside of India to accept payment from Indians without an international credit card?
Isn't that true already? My friends and I have been able to use local bank debit cards and they work as expected on international sites.
Well yes and no. The vast majority of Indian credit and debit cards don’t work outside of India. You need to get special permission from your bank to be able to use an Indian CC outside of India [0].
0. I have to say that I have not looked into this in detail in the last 12 months so if things have changed with the RBI I would be very happy to know.
0. I have to say that I have not looked into this in detail in the last 12 months so if things have changed with the RBI I would be very happy to know.
Will this accept RuPay?
It lets you run a local stripe API on your machine. I've got high hopes in it. This could be the cure to building resilient stripe tests on local machines.
The maintainer @brandur seems to know his stuff in regards to rest apis.