WHO to recognize gaming disorder as mental health condition(lite.cnn.io)
lite.cnn.io
WHO to recognize gaming disorder as mental health condition
http://lite.cnn.io/en/article/h_f8b1509f44a2e3b96999bb04d587e3ef
99 comments
> Before criticizing modern psychiatry keep in mind:
> 1. mental health patients are extreme in their dysfunction, never common.
I agree with what you're saying, but the US does have a problem of over-testing, over-diagnosis, and over-treating illness. Not just mental ill health, but everything.
In the US about 10% of children have ADHD
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/
> Based on the Heath Resources and Services Administration's National Survey of Children's Health, the percentage of children aged 4–17 years diagnosed with ADHD increased from 7.8% in 2003 to 9.5% in 2007, representing a 21.8% increase in just 4 years (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 2010).
An estimates 3million US children take stimulant medication:
> Experts estimate that approximately 60% of children with ADHD are treated with prescription stimulants (Center for Disease Control and Prevention 2005a); therefore, approximately three million children in this country take stimulants for problems with focusing. At the same time, many studies have revealed the numerous adverse effects associated with prescription stimulants when they are used inappropriately.
These numbers are a bit worrying, especially if medication alone is being used, and it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
> 1. mental health patients are extreme in their dysfunction, never common.
I agree with what you're saying, but the US does have a problem of over-testing, over-diagnosis, and over-treating illness. Not just mental ill health, but everything.
In the US about 10% of children have ADHD
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/
> Based on the Heath Resources and Services Administration's National Survey of Children's Health, the percentage of children aged 4–17 years diagnosed with ADHD increased from 7.8% in 2003 to 9.5% in 2007, representing a 21.8% increase in just 4 years (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 2010).
An estimates 3million US children take stimulant medication:
> Experts estimate that approximately 60% of children with ADHD are treated with prescription stimulants (Center for Disease Control and Prevention 2005a); therefore, approximately three million children in this country take stimulants for problems with focusing. At the same time, many studies have revealed the numerous adverse effects associated with prescription stimulants when they are used inappropriately.
These numbers are a bit worrying, especially if medication alone is being used, and it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
Ahh, sigh. I was writing with ADHD in mind actually.
Up to 10% children really do have ADHD which is a delay in the development of the frontal lobe. Such a delay seems "somewhat common" amongst humans.
More than half catch up, leaving upto 5% of adults with some form of ADHD.
ADHD is serious. It is a severe impairment to planning, self-management, emotional regulation, etc. You are likely to be impoverished without substantial resources to rely on (family, etc.).
> are a bit worrying > it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
ADHD researchers (serious neuroscientists & clinical psychiatrists) have for DECADES tried "biosocial blah blah". It has failed. ADHD is not a failure of child training (ie., parents "Raising Their Child Right!!!").
Overwhelmingly the effective treatment for ADHD is pharmocological. At this point comments like yours, along with the media hysteria, are doing real harm to children actually getting treatment.
The problem we have with ADHD is significant under treatment and under diagnosis.
It turns out all those "useless" people joked about in human history have not just been failures of character: in need of "social" intervention. They have had a physical impairment, a delay in their brain's development. Not Fixable by a good beating, or whatever the touchy-feely equivalent is.
The suggestion that a child with a broken leg not receive crutches would be absolutely outrageous. Or a person with cancer not receive a daily pill treatment. The very same outrage should be felt here in the suggestion that people with ADHD not receive medication vital to their ability to even pay attention to their lessons (goals, etc.). Vital to their ability to socailize (ie., control their frustation in ways that doesnt alientate other children). And therefore vital to their future success.
Yes there does need to be a fundamental reorganization to western education systems to, from the ground up, be aware of how wide-spread developmental issues are -- and to build in fundamental support structures.
However this isnt a "treatment" for ADHD. There is no cure. This is just bracing the crutches. Overwelmingly the research over the last 30 years has shown the only significant impact on ADHD is pharmocological.
Up to 10% children really do have ADHD which is a delay in the development of the frontal lobe. Such a delay seems "somewhat common" amongst humans.
More than half catch up, leaving upto 5% of adults with some form of ADHD.
ADHD is serious. It is a severe impairment to planning, self-management, emotional regulation, etc. You are likely to be impoverished without substantial resources to rely on (family, etc.).
> are a bit worrying > it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
ADHD researchers (serious neuroscientists & clinical psychiatrists) have for DECADES tried "biosocial blah blah". It has failed. ADHD is not a failure of child training (ie., parents "Raising Their Child Right!!!").
Overwhelmingly the effective treatment for ADHD is pharmocological. At this point comments like yours, along with the media hysteria, are doing real harm to children actually getting treatment.
The problem we have with ADHD is significant under treatment and under diagnosis.
It turns out all those "useless" people joked about in human history have not just been failures of character: in need of "social" intervention. They have had a physical impairment, a delay in their brain's development. Not Fixable by a good beating, or whatever the touchy-feely equivalent is.
The suggestion that a child with a broken leg not receive crutches would be absolutely outrageous. Or a person with cancer not receive a daily pill treatment. The very same outrage should be felt here in the suggestion that people with ADHD not receive medication vital to their ability to even pay attention to their lessons (goals, etc.). Vital to their ability to socailize (ie., control their frustation in ways that doesnt alientate other children). And therefore vital to their future success.
Yes there does need to be a fundamental reorganization to western education systems to, from the ground up, be aware of how wide-spread developmental issues are -- and to build in fundamental support structures.
However this isnt a "treatment" for ADHD. There is no cure. This is just bracing the crutches. Overwelmingly the research over the last 30 years has shown the only significant impact on ADHD is pharmocological.
Your points about ADHD requiring a pharmacological approach reminds me of the discussion here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que...
Specifically, that the only distinction between 'disease' and 'character flaw' which makes sense is that you can't fix someone's disease by yelling at them.
Specifically, that the only distinction between 'disease' and 'character flaw' which makes sense is that you can't fix someone's disease by yelling at them.
> "...you can't fix someone's disease by yelling at them."
Actually, I think if you believe in neuroplasticity (sp?) that might not be accurate. True, yelling might not be the best approach. But it can still work if applied the right way - to some extent.
Actually, I think if you believe in neuroplasticity (sp?) that might not be accurate. True, yelling might not be the best approach. But it can still work if applied the right way - to some extent.
I've read a lot of your posts on this thread and appreciate your perspective. I agree with a lot of it. Honest question for you though: isn't it a bit weird to label something as a disorder if 5-10% of the population has it? Isn't it just a fairly standard human existence then? I think that's where a lot of the discomfort comes from.
Not the parent, and I don't mean this sarcastically, but isn't that akin to saying "Only 5-10% of people fracture a bone, so why bother treating it. It's just a standard part of human existence."?
Also poor eyesight, color blindness, partial deafness, &c. The reality all of these diseases/disorders are readily and inexpensively treated and not an issue in modern society.
There is a wide difference in the prevalence, severity of condition and extremity of treatment in some of these conditions.
Poor eyesight afflicts a large portion of the population, but the severity of the issue and the extremity of the treatment are not high. It doesn't impact your ability to maintain social relationships, for instance, and the treatment is very well understood and has low/no side effects.
Color blindness, partial deafness etc., are readily and inexpensively treated, but they do not afflict 5-10% of the young and healthy population.
The issue comes in when we start saying 5-10% of the population has an extreme condition (ie: impacts ability to maintain work, social relationships etc.) with a relatively severe (ie: fairly large % of users experiencing side effects) treatment necessary. When you put that in the context of our massively volatile understanding of mental illness over the last 50 years, as well as the massive incentives for pharmaceutical companies to push a specific narrative, it is difficult for me not to see a red flag.
Poor eyesight afflicts a large portion of the population, but the severity of the issue and the extremity of the treatment are not high. It doesn't impact your ability to maintain social relationships, for instance, and the treatment is very well understood and has low/no side effects.
Color blindness, partial deafness etc., are readily and inexpensively treated, but they do not afflict 5-10% of the young and healthy population.
The issue comes in when we start saying 5-10% of the population has an extreme condition (ie: impacts ability to maintain work, social relationships etc.) with a relatively severe (ie: fairly large % of users experiencing side effects) treatment necessary. When you put that in the context of our massively volatile understanding of mental illness over the last 50 years, as well as the massive incentives for pharmaceutical companies to push a specific narrative, it is difficult for me not to see a red flag.
> Color blindness, partial deafness etc., are readily and inexpensively treated, but they do not afflict 5-10% of the young and healthy population.
Isn't color blindness in men right in that range?
Isn't color blindness in men right in that range?
Off hand I have no idea, but it's also the severity aspect here that is different. Color blind people do not have problems with executive function, maintaining social relationships, depression etc.
"...massively volatile understanding of mental illness over the last 50 years...": The sort of volatility you undertake on a path toward drastic improvement.
And yet by many measures mental health issues are increasing not decreasing so where is all this drastic improvement?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-changing-culture/20...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-changing-culture/20...
Improvement is in treating.
Don't false equivocate. If we were to open more mines than there were in 1900 we may well see more broken legs. However we're far better at treating a broken leg.
Though it is not at all clear that "mental health" is deteriorating. It may be that some forms of mental health issues are more prevalent today (eg. anxiety and depression). But that is no where near the whole picture.
An entire generation of people were traumatized by WW1 and WW2, and by the generation of parents who through that traumatization, traumatized their children.
Extreme disorders of the personality, PTSD, etc. simply were seen as normal then because they were so overwhelmingly common. PTSD didnt exist as a diagnosis till 70s, and yet it would characterize a generation of people under war.
If I were to speculate, I would say that we are overwhelmingly better in our general mental health.
That we recognise it as an issue suggest a profound advancement.
Don't false equivocate. If we were to open more mines than there were in 1900 we may well see more broken legs. However we're far better at treating a broken leg.
Though it is not at all clear that "mental health" is deteriorating. It may be that some forms of mental health issues are more prevalent today (eg. anxiety and depression). But that is no where near the whole picture.
An entire generation of people were traumatized by WW1 and WW2, and by the generation of parents who through that traumatization, traumatized their children.
Extreme disorders of the personality, PTSD, etc. simply were seen as normal then because they were so overwhelmingly common. PTSD didnt exist as a diagnosis till 70s, and yet it would characterize a generation of people under war.
If I were to speculate, I would say that we are overwhelmingly better in our general mental health.
That we recognise it as an issue suggest a profound advancement.
> If I were to speculate, I would say that we are overwhelmingly better in our general mental health.
By what measure? Because I just posted a bunch of studies that show the opposite, and they actually address a lot of the issues you brought up.
By what measure? Because I just posted a bunch of studies that show the opposite, and they actually address a lot of the issues you brought up.
> By what measure?
Did you even read my reply?
I looked at those studies. They do not at all address issues like PTSD, personality disorders, trauma and other mental health issues which, for example, would certainly characterize huge numbers of people in the interwar and post-war period. Yet, where as these numbers?
PTSD didnt exist at the time. Trauma wasnt even considered, in part, because it was so wide spread.
Domestic violence, murder, rape, assault, theft, etc. were crazy high only 30 years ago.
Western societies were incredibly violent and predatory placeo, and this gets significantly worse the further you go back. At the beginning of the 20th C. 1 in 20 women were dying in childbirth, murder was 10-a-penny, almost everyone was impoverished. Children routinely went hungry.
But oh year. Now we're a bit more depressed.
THe 20th C. was a century of trauma. Child abuse was institutionalized. Domestic violence was how families worked. WW1, WW2, Vietnam (and many other wars) left a generation of men absolutely traumatized.
The studies have no reliable data to work with, as there was no empirical psychology for the bulk of the 20th C. collecting societal-level information on mental health.
Subjective "happiness" reporting has not much to do with mental health. A financially secure person who was routinely sexually assaulted as a child may well report being happier in 1985 than a poorer, less economically stable person today with otherwise excellent mental health.
For several decades economic securiyt has been decreasing in the west causing people to feel less "happy" (ie., to be more often worrying). This has an impact on their mental health, but I'm sceptical it comes close to the impact of the vietnam war.
The 20th C. was horrific and a horror for everyone. Any "psychologist" nostalgic for the 20th C. either knows nothing of psychology, nothing of history or both.
Did you even read my reply?
I looked at those studies. They do not at all address issues like PTSD, personality disorders, trauma and other mental health issues which, for example, would certainly characterize huge numbers of people in the interwar and post-war period. Yet, where as these numbers?
PTSD didnt exist at the time. Trauma wasnt even considered, in part, because it was so wide spread.
Domestic violence, murder, rape, assault, theft, etc. were crazy high only 30 years ago.
Western societies were incredibly violent and predatory placeo, and this gets significantly worse the further you go back. At the beginning of the 20th C. 1 in 20 women were dying in childbirth, murder was 10-a-penny, almost everyone was impoverished. Children routinely went hungry.
But oh year. Now we're a bit more depressed.
THe 20th C. was a century of trauma. Child abuse was institutionalized. Domestic violence was how families worked. WW1, WW2, Vietnam (and many other wars) left a generation of men absolutely traumatized.
The studies have no reliable data to work with, as there was no empirical psychology for the bulk of the 20th C. collecting societal-level information on mental health.
Subjective "happiness" reporting has not much to do with mental health. A financially secure person who was routinely sexually assaulted as a child may well report being happier in 1985 than a poorer, less economically stable person today with otherwise excellent mental health.
For several decades economic securiyt has been decreasing in the west causing people to feel less "happy" (ie., to be more often worrying). This has an impact on their mental health, but I'm sceptical it comes close to the impact of the vietnam war.
The 20th C. was horrific and a horror for everyone. Any "psychologist" nostalgic for the 20th C. either knows nothing of psychology, nothing of history or both.
A significant amount of blacks worldwide had sickle cell anemia. In the past when humans lived in more isolated and homogeneous societies this was the standard existence. In fact, it conferred a resistance against malaria. Today, we have better treatments for that disease that don't carry the same side effects.
A more prescient and present example is that almost all humans are subject to cognitive biases. A wise man known as Citizen G'Kar once said "In the past, we had little contact with other races. Evolution taught us that we must fight that which is different in order to secure land, food, and mates for ourselves. But we must reach a point where the nobility of intellect asserts itself and says no, we need not fear those who are different. We can embrace those differences and learn from them."
A more prescient and present example is that almost all humans are subject to cognitive biases. A wise man known as Citizen G'Kar once said "In the past, we had little contact with other races. Evolution taught us that we must fight that which is different in order to secure land, food, and mates for ourselves. But we must reach a point where the nobility of intellect asserts itself and says no, we need not fear those who are different. We can embrace those differences and learn from them."
> In fact, it conferred a resistance against malaria.
I think this is one of my main points: if such a large percentage of the population has something that we think of as a large negative, it's probably a good time to take a step back and wonder if we aren't understanding the whole picture because evolution tends to take care of such low hanging fruit.
I think this is one of my main points: if such a large percentage of the population has something that we think of as a large negative, it's probably a good time to take a step back and wonder if we aren't understanding the whole picture because evolution tends to take care of such low hanging fruit.
Evolution takes care of things that stop you from reproducing, not things that make you unhappy.
It's weird that you have such a strongly negative reaction to my post.
Especially this bit:
> > it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
> ADHD researchers (serious neuroscientists & clinical psychiatrists) have for DECADES tried "biosocial blah blah".
Medication is the Bio bit. "Your children are not wilfully disobedient, please stop hitting them" is the psycho-social bit.
Especially this bit:
> > it's not provided as a package of bio-psycho-social treatment.
> ADHD researchers (serious neuroscientists & clinical psychiatrists) have for DECADES tried "biosocial blah blah".
Medication is the Bio bit. "Your children are not wilfully disobedient, please stop hitting them" is the psycho-social bit.
I'm half reacting to a reading of your post that many readers will have, even if it's not one you intended.
On the whole I appreciate you introducing the real prevalence of ADHD, etc.
However the lack of engagement with the reality of treating ADHD and the implied "concerns" is a very easy prelude to a rant about middle class mothers, and the medical establishment.
If I'm a little harsh to you, its only as a stand in for what your post would otherwise be used for: the occasional reader unthinkingly associating it with an attack on effective treatment.
On the whole I appreciate you introducing the real prevalence of ADHD, etc.
However the lack of engagement with the reality of treating ADHD and the implied "concerns" is a very easy prelude to a rant about middle class mothers, and the medical establishment.
If I'm a little harsh to you, its only as a stand in for what your post would otherwise be used for: the occasional reader unthinkingly associating it with an attack on effective treatment.
Honestly I think about half the problem is that psychiatric illnesses don't make people bleed, so there's no way to universally tell something is wrong.
The bane of society, I think, is mentally healthy people.
They run politics but have absolutely no appreciation for what works for non-healthy people. Which is all the people who acutally rely on politics/society.
I think conservatism as a personality is a symptom of good mental health: if you arent able to do something, its lazyness. So you must just need some motivation: either a beating or some money. etc.
That's true if you're mentally healthy. If not then the ways you are failing arent even imaginable from the POV of mental health. And they are as communicable as cancer, or any physical illness.
The last century is full of works by people who have recently taken acid telling everyone how "everything is now differnet" etc. How they couldnt even have imagined the things they took for granted in how their minds work were actually variable.
Every mental illness is its own unique form of acid. And unless you've been on an acid trip, or are very well informed medically, you've no idea what it is like.
They run politics but have absolutely no appreciation for what works for non-healthy people. Which is all the people who acutally rely on politics/society.
I think conservatism as a personality is a symptom of good mental health: if you arent able to do something, its lazyness. So you must just need some motivation: either a beating or some money. etc.
That's true if you're mentally healthy. If not then the ways you are failing arent even imaginable from the POV of mental health. And they are as communicable as cancer, or any physical illness.
The last century is full of works by people who have recently taken acid telling everyone how "everything is now differnet" etc. How they couldnt even have imagined the things they took for granted in how their minds work were actually variable.
Every mental illness is its own unique form of acid. And unless you've been on an acid trip, or are very well informed medically, you've no idea what it is like.
This is an interesting perspective. I would add that there may be multiple "healthy" modes of being human that are quite different, and some of these modes may be a small minority. In a small tribe these cognitive differences may have been valued (depending on the tribe of course!), but in our modern, highly systematized society these people are often considered a social "misfit" for being unable or unwilling to play along.
For better or worse, the rules of society are designed by the neurotypical majority, who are often unable to see that the concept of "normal" is frequently just a fig leaf for the majority consensus. This can get wrapped up in politics through layers of metaphor but is rarely (if ever) engaged with directly in public debate.
For better or worse, the rules of society are designed by the neurotypical majority, who are often unable to see that the concept of "normal" is frequently just a fig leaf for the majority consensus. This can get wrapped up in politics through layers of metaphor but is rarely (if ever) engaged with directly in public debate.
> the rules of society are designed by the neurotypical majority
That's another way of putting it. I'm not sure the majority are neurotypical however.
I think, rather, "neurotypicality" is a background assumption of certain institutions because it's easier to design for an average even if it doesn't exist (no 1 human being is mean in every respect).
However those who experience life-long mental health, and esp. for most of their childhood, I think are overwhelmingly "conservative" in their personalities. And I think these sort do tend to find themselves in more elite/visible positions.
Political systems represent those who hold power. They do not represent a majority (power is the mechanism of representation, not mere existence).
In democracies, there is more "tending towards the majority". But still, it is very much a symptom of who can be elected, who is elected, etc.
That's another way of putting it. I'm not sure the majority are neurotypical however.
I think, rather, "neurotypicality" is a background assumption of certain institutions because it's easier to design for an average even if it doesn't exist (no 1 human being is mean in every respect).
However those who experience life-long mental health, and esp. for most of their childhood, I think are overwhelmingly "conservative" in their personalities. And I think these sort do tend to find themselves in more elite/visible positions.
Political systems represent those who hold power. They do not represent a majority (power is the mechanism of representation, not mere existence).
In democracies, there is more "tending towards the majority". But still, it is very much a symptom of who can be elected, who is elected, etc.
> I think conservatism as a personality is a symptom of good mental health: if you arent able to do something, its lazyness. So you must just need some motivation: either a beating or some money. etc.
This is a really cynical view of conservatism and I have a hard time seeing how you don't see half the country as evil if that's what you think.
Another view might be: this stuff is so complicated, and as you pointed out it's so difficult for political leaders to have real empathy for people in these situations, there is a high degree of chance we will screw this up and make it worse while trying to help. Example: homosexuality being in the DSM. Or really much of the history of how state institutions have treated the mentally ill, which has mostly had to do with keeping them away from the non mentally ill and not actually treating them.
This is a really cynical view of conservatism and I have a hard time seeing how you don't see half the country as evil if that's what you think.
Another view might be: this stuff is so complicated, and as you pointed out it's so difficult for political leaders to have real empathy for people in these situations, there is a high degree of chance we will screw this up and make it worse while trying to help. Example: homosexuality being in the DSM. Or really much of the history of how state institutions have treated the mentally ill, which has mostly had to do with keeping them away from the non mentally ill and not actually treating them.
I don't see it being cynical. I think it's the opposite of evil. It paints conservatives as entirely reasonable people making entirely reasonable suggestions but simply failing to appreciate difference.
A failure to appreciate difference is not evil, its part of how everyone acts in entirely well-intentioned ways.
Also, I dont think anywhere near half of any country has a conservative personality. Certainly the GOP are not today defined by their conservatism, whatever it is, it is radical.
I would say a fundamentally conservative personality is something most common in the vaguely upper-middle classes. It is present, to a degree, in the more traditional working class environments (eg. mom-and-pop store children, etc.).
It's all about seeing your success follow from your actions in a way that you control. It's about being able to plan, execute, and understand consistently -- for most of your life.
I think that's rarer than half, maybe 1/3? At a guess. And i think its not partisan: there are leftwing and rightwing conservatives.
A failure to appreciate difference is not evil, its part of how everyone acts in entirely well-intentioned ways.
Also, I dont think anywhere near half of any country has a conservative personality. Certainly the GOP are not today defined by their conservatism, whatever it is, it is radical.
I would say a fundamentally conservative personality is something most common in the vaguely upper-middle classes. It is present, to a degree, in the more traditional working class environments (eg. mom-and-pop store children, etc.).
It's all about seeing your success follow from your actions in a way that you control. It's about being able to plan, execute, and understand consistently -- for most of your life.
I think that's rarer than half, maybe 1/3? At a guess. And i think its not partisan: there are leftwing and rightwing conservatives.
> The bane of society, I think, is mentally healthy people.
> They run politics
Assumes facts not in evidence.
> They run politics
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I dont think any mentally healthy person would want to work in politics.
I think the conflict here is more in that way:
Do you want to give people medicine so they can conform to what society expects from them, or do you instead try to change society so it doesn't have this expectations in the first place.
With ADHD what a lot of people see is this: You are not being efficient, so that is a flaw that needs to be fixed. But where is the line? Should we really optimize for maximal productivity or are other forms of society possible?
Do you want to give people medicine so they can conform to what society expects from them, or do you instead try to change society so it doesn't have this expectations in the first place.
With ADHD what a lot of people see is this: You are not being efficient, so that is a flaw that needs to be fixed. But where is the line? Should we really optimize for maximal productivity or are other forms of society possible?
Yes, this "Social" view of disability has I think, gone too far.
A dog with three legs is much worse at being a dog.
There is really something it is to be a human, and it isnt just defined by culture and present-day society.
We live on earth. We eat food. We socialize. We, by being human, do a very large number of things merely because we are human. And if you damage part of our body, we can't do those things. And doing those things is a fundamental part of what we do.
ADHD really is a neurological impairment on this scale. It isn't "being less productive". It is a torture, a trauma, an on-going alienating, destabilizing impairment.
You might say "well couldn't there be a society where ADHD was an advantage"... i'd say basically No, not without changing the human species.
Yes, maybe we could imagine one. A society perfectly designed for people with ADHD, but when you describe that society in detail, you'd discover its profoundly impairing to people without ADHD.
As in, imagine we all lived as if we had no arms. That would be an extreme oppression to the almost everyone who does. And that's because on-earth, doing the things human beings do, arms are inherently part of doing those things well. That is why not having arms is a disability, not a lifestyle choice.
Similarly for vision, hearing, etc.
ADHD is an impairment to advanced cognitive function. It's an impairment to your minds ability to "see" itself.
The moment we start to say, of children with ADHD, that they should have this impairment.. that it's our "culture" that decides this impairment is bad... I think that's a gross abuse of those children.
It's turning your own lack of dependence on pharmacology, your own health, into a trap for people who do need it.
A dog with three legs is much worse at being a dog.
There is really something it is to be a human, and it isnt just defined by culture and present-day society.
We live on earth. We eat food. We socialize. We, by being human, do a very large number of things merely because we are human. And if you damage part of our body, we can't do those things. And doing those things is a fundamental part of what we do.
ADHD really is a neurological impairment on this scale. It isn't "being less productive". It is a torture, a trauma, an on-going alienating, destabilizing impairment.
You might say "well couldn't there be a society where ADHD was an advantage"... i'd say basically No, not without changing the human species.
Yes, maybe we could imagine one. A society perfectly designed for people with ADHD, but when you describe that society in detail, you'd discover its profoundly impairing to people without ADHD.
As in, imagine we all lived as if we had no arms. That would be an extreme oppression to the almost everyone who does. And that's because on-earth, doing the things human beings do, arms are inherently part of doing those things well. That is why not having arms is a disability, not a lifestyle choice.
Similarly for vision, hearing, etc.
ADHD is an impairment to advanced cognitive function. It's an impairment to your minds ability to "see" itself.
The moment we start to say, of children with ADHD, that they should have this impairment.. that it's our "culture" that decides this impairment is bad... I think that's a gross abuse of those children.
It's turning your own lack of dependence on pharmacology, your own health, into a trap for people who do need it.
You might be looking at ADHD too much through the lens of buying some Adderall before a uni exam so that you can nail it.
ADHD interferes with everything from social relationships to doing anything that you want to do. We have to be productive insofar as to pay for food and shelter, but you're addressing a very narrow aspect of what ADHD medication treats. For some people, it's the ability to socialize, finish a joke, and achieve their life ambitions.
ADHD interferes with everything from social relationships to doing anything that you want to do. We have to be productive insofar as to pay for food and shelter, but you're addressing a very narrow aspect of what ADHD medication treats. For some people, it's the ability to socialize, finish a joke, and achieve their life ambitions.
> "...but the US does have a problem of over-testing, over-diagnosis, and over-treating illness. Not just mental ill health, but everything."
I'd argue this is a symptom. The root disease is the profits to be made from various testing positive.
I'd add that it's aided by the fact that most people believe the doc can (and should) script you a pill for just about everything. Prevention? That's not going to happen. The patients know it, the doctors know it, and the insurance company pays for it.
Do I think everyone should have access to healthcare? Yes. But everyone should also be mindful if personal health. That isn't the case. And since soneone else is always paying for it, and the med pro are too broken to push back, we get what we have.
Illness as a badget of honor.
I'd argue this is a symptom. The root disease is the profits to be made from various testing positive.
I'd add that it's aided by the fact that most people believe the doc can (and should) script you a pill for just about everything. Prevention? That's not going to happen. The patients know it, the doctors know it, and the insurance company pays for it.
Do I think everyone should have access to healthcare? Yes. But everyone should also be mindful if personal health. That isn't the case. And since soneone else is always paying for it, and the med pro are too broken to push back, we get what we have.
Illness as a badget of honor.
> 3. modern clinical psychiatry is an evidenced-based, research-driven field which treats and forms diagnoses on the basis of decades of research into any particular condition. It isnt the 1950s.
But isn't modern clinical psychiatry marred by the same problems social or economic sciences are? Ultimately you are studying/interpreting human behaviour, which doesn't lend itself well to quantisation or categorising.
But isn't modern clinical psychiatry marred by the same problems social or economic sciences are? Ultimately you are studying/interpreting human behaviour, which doesn't lend itself well to quantisation or categorising.
The most reasonable thing to think about any mental health disorder is whatever the consensus in clinical psychiatry is.
That is the point. It is so overwhelmingly well-researched, that even if its conclusions are wrong, no lay person is going to be in a position to have "an argument" that hasn't already been considered and researched and folded into the consensus.
This isnt the case with social sciences, and it isnt the case with macroeconomic policy. Both of these are about groups of humans, not individual humans, and are fundamentally about behaviour in the face of cultural/economic/social changes. That kind of analysis is purely speculative and historically accidental in the way that giving people adderall and measuring their cognitive performance isn't.
A man on the street may well have good reasons to speculate differently about the evolution of his society that those speculations produced in some university in a foreign country.
A man on the street can have no good reason to act against the consensus of research-based medicine. To do so is to fly blindly into an area of profound research depth and consideration.
We have a problem today of these domains being equivocated. About people believing they are experts because the "Experts" they see are really political speculators and commentators of macro-cultural changes. And so everyone thinks everything is speculation.
This is profoundly not the case for, let's say, what the best treatment plan for bipolar disorder, adhd, autism, clincial depression, psychosis, etc. etc. etc. is.
...which has folded in lifetimes of research on the way the brain works, the way that drugs work, CBT, social therapies, counselling, etc. etc. etc. ...
An opinion on what "should be done" about a family member with bipolar disorder may as well be an opinion about what should be done about their thyroid problem, carpal fracture, lymphoma, etc.
That is the point. It is so overwhelmingly well-researched, that even if its conclusions are wrong, no lay person is going to be in a position to have "an argument" that hasn't already been considered and researched and folded into the consensus.
This isnt the case with social sciences, and it isnt the case with macroeconomic policy. Both of these are about groups of humans, not individual humans, and are fundamentally about behaviour in the face of cultural/economic/social changes. That kind of analysis is purely speculative and historically accidental in the way that giving people adderall and measuring their cognitive performance isn't.
A man on the street may well have good reasons to speculate differently about the evolution of his society that those speculations produced in some university in a foreign country.
A man on the street can have no good reason to act against the consensus of research-based medicine. To do so is to fly blindly into an area of profound research depth and consideration.
We have a problem today of these domains being equivocated. About people believing they are experts because the "Experts" they see are really political speculators and commentators of macro-cultural changes. And so everyone thinks everything is speculation.
This is profoundly not the case for, let's say, what the best treatment plan for bipolar disorder, adhd, autism, clincial depression, psychosis, etc. etc. etc. is.
...which has folded in lifetimes of research on the way the brain works, the way that drugs work, CBT, social therapies, counselling, etc. etc. etc. ...
An opinion on what "should be done" about a family member with bipolar disorder may as well be an opinion about what should be done about their thyroid problem, carpal fracture, lymphoma, etc.
Sounds like you're not familiar with sociology nor macroeconomics literature.
My concern was to defend the topic at hand. Trying to distinguish between different forms of economics and sociology would muddy the waters a great deal.
For sure, no doubt, there is highly defensible macroeconomic and sociological work done.
There does seem to be a boundary where sociology meets macroeconomics meets english literature meets arsty-psychology wherein a huge amount of highly speculative work is done. Work which seems, as far as its truth apt, mostly false.
I don't think this work properly belongs to any of those subjects and is really a kind of speculative blogging that certain academics like to do that happens to get published somewhere. However that also tends to get seen more often than their detailed work on interest rates in the 1970s.
For sure, no doubt, there is highly defensible macroeconomic and sociological work done.
There does seem to be a boundary where sociology meets macroeconomics meets english literature meets arsty-psychology wherein a huge amount of highly speculative work is done. Work which seems, as far as its truth apt, mostly false.
I don't think this work properly belongs to any of those subjects and is really a kind of speculative blogging that certain academics like to do that happens to get published somewhere. However that also tends to get seen more often than their detailed work on interest rates in the 1970s.
Macroeconomists often can't run experiments, and some kinds of "macro-sociological" theories can't be tested either. That puts them in a fundamentally different epistemological class.
Most recent studies in psychiatry and social sciences that I have read, even those published in Nature, use sample sizes of around 50 people, which should be considered insufficient. Instead they use various cooked up formulas for correcting for gender/ethnicity etc. Instead, sample sizes should be much bigger. Of course this is not practical or even perhaps impossible. I find this to be a poor excuse, though.
The matter of fact is, we know very little about how the brain works. We certainly have some big picture on how the brain functions, but we are very far from grasping the chemistry.
The matter of fact is, we know very little about how the brain works. We certainly have some big picture on how the brain functions, but we are very far from grasping the chemistry.
psychiatry =/= psychology =/= social psychology
This is more "everything is the same" anti-expertism.
Clinical psychiatry is not about p-hacking groups of 50.
The treatment of bipolar disorder hasnt been decided on the basis of what happened to the last dozen undergrad students.
>The matter of fact is, we know very little about how the brain works.
Profoundly untrue. Even if it were truth, its very truth would preclude your ability to make this assertion. If we knew nothing, how are you estimating the nothing we know?
It is no mystery what happens when you give a person lithium. Nor some speculative game to know what the effect of MDMA on PTSD patients is. Nor hocus pocus to identify the effects of repeated trauma.
How are you deciding what percentage of "how the brain works" we need to know in order to do psychiatry in a reasonably well-informed way?
Suppose, even, we know now 0.1% of the entire story. Is this sufficient for an evidence-based treatment of psychosis?
It clearly seems to be. Since the treatment of schizophrenia is overwhelmingly more effective than anything based on a study of 50 people.
Your comment may very well apply to "journalistic science" ie., the increasingly prevent, "ive just had an idea, lets get 50 undergrads and a seminar room!".
That is a tiny percentage of science, even if it is the most commonly popularized.
This is more "everything is the same" anti-expertism.
Clinical psychiatry is not about p-hacking groups of 50.
The treatment of bipolar disorder hasnt been decided on the basis of what happened to the last dozen undergrad students.
>The matter of fact is, we know very little about how the brain works.
Profoundly untrue. Even if it were truth, its very truth would preclude your ability to make this assertion. If we knew nothing, how are you estimating the nothing we know?
It is no mystery what happens when you give a person lithium. Nor some speculative game to know what the effect of MDMA on PTSD patients is. Nor hocus pocus to identify the effects of repeated trauma.
How are you deciding what percentage of "how the brain works" we need to know in order to do psychiatry in a reasonably well-informed way?
Suppose, even, we know now 0.1% of the entire story. Is this sufficient for an evidence-based treatment of psychosis?
It clearly seems to be. Since the treatment of schizophrenia is overwhelmingly more effective than anything based on a study of 50 people.
Your comment may very well apply to "journalistic science" ie., the increasingly prevent, "ive just had an idea, lets get 50 undergrads and a seminar room!".
That is a tiny percentage of science, even if it is the most commonly popularized.
I had a look at this review on bipolar disorder, https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.e8508 . According to a study referenced in it, 68 randomized trials where used to determine the effect of different drugs compared to placebo. Again the sample size is low and the statistical significance is also small, unless I'm missing something.
You are correct in saying that we don't actually know how much we know about the brain. But the brain is s much more complex than e.g. planets orbiting the sun. There are many components that can get affected by chemical compounds in the short term, but more importantly in the long term. I agree though that only through testing can we get a better understanding. It is just the way it's currently done that I disagree. I would gladly read some research you think is good and does not have the shortcomings I describe.
You are correct in saying that we don't actually know how much we know about the brain. But the brain is s much more complex than e.g. planets orbiting the sun. There are many components that can get affected by chemical compounds in the short term, but more importantly in the long term. I agree though that only through testing can we get a better understanding. It is just the way it's currently done that I disagree. I would gladly read some research you think is good and does not have the shortcomings I describe.
> Most recent studies in psychiatry and social sciences that I have read, even those published in Nature, use sample sizes of around 50 people, which should be considered insufficient.
I disagree with your reasoning even if your conclusion is correct about the validity of those studies. Small sample sizes are not intrinsically bad and there’s no magic number to make sample sizes valid. It’s a sliding scale with statistical significance - with a large enough p value a relatively small sample size doesn’t mean the observed phenomenon isn’t there. In that case I would be more concerned about p value hacking or the researchers “presuming the conclusion from the outset” than the sample size.
I disagree with your reasoning even if your conclusion is correct about the validity of those studies. Small sample sizes are not intrinsically bad and there’s no magic number to make sample sizes valid. It’s a sliding scale with statistical significance - with a large enough p value a relatively small sample size doesn’t mean the observed phenomenon isn’t there. In that case I would be more concerned about p value hacking or the researchers “presuming the conclusion from the outset” than the sample size.
You can't condemn sample size without also condemning the statistical methodology of an experiment.
"Small sample size thus irrelevant" does not make sense despite often being the top comment on Reddit.
"Small sample size thus irrelevant" does not make sense despite often being the top comment on Reddit.
This is correct. Sample size should be dependent on the strength of the effect. As a rule of thumb though, a sample of 50 people is very little. If physics used these kind of sample sizes and confidence levels, we would have discovered multitudes of new particles.
>3. modern clinical psychiatry is an evidenced-based, research-driven field which treats and forms diagnoses on the basis of decades of research into any particular condition. It isnt the 1950s.
Your post was okay until your last point. While it isn't the 1950s, its absurd to contend that "modern clinical psychiatry" isn't massively subjective in terms of both treatment and diagnosis. The fact is that the vast majority of psychiatrists reflexively shovel pills at those perceived to be afflicted with poorly-understood mental disorders. In reality, we are only beginning to scratch the surface when it comes to understanding how the brain works, let alone the human psyche. One of the most egregious illustrations of this fact are the over 1 million children under the age of 5 taking psychiatric drugs. We still don't know the long term outcomes of our tinkering with the developing brains of infants and small children, and its hubris (or worse) to pretend that we do.
https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychi...
Your post was okay until your last point. While it isn't the 1950s, its absurd to contend that "modern clinical psychiatry" isn't massively subjective in terms of both treatment and diagnosis. The fact is that the vast majority of psychiatrists reflexively shovel pills at those perceived to be afflicted with poorly-understood mental disorders. In reality, we are only beginning to scratch the surface when it comes to understanding how the brain works, let alone the human psyche. One of the most egregious illustrations of this fact are the over 1 million children under the age of 5 taking psychiatric drugs. We still don't know the long term outcomes of our tinkering with the developing brains of infants and small children, and its hubris (or worse) to pretend that we do.
https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychi...
On the subject, I remember reading recently that most psychology studies are observational, and when attempts to duplicate the findings are made they mostly can't. I realize that GP's statement is qualified with 'clinical', and decisions based on observational studies are probably better than just making things up, but how much have we actually progressed?
I don't know whether what I had (have?) meets this WHO definition, but I can tell you that at points in my life, I've had an unhealthy relationship with video games.
For me, and maybe others as well, it's about having control over something and feeling a sense of accomplishment, feeling like I'm achieving something. Video games give you that. For a small cost ($20-$50), you can have pure escapism from reality, think about things other than your shitty life and depression and instead feel yourself accomplish goals, achieve success, win. Unlike drugs or alcohol, it doesn't end- you can just keep coming back without paying anything. There's no chemical hangover, no blood test for it, no social stigma like drugs have. It's perfect.
My underlying problems have been dealt with now, but I still have to limit how long I play games for. The high is still there and I recognize it well. I just don't need it like I once did.
Looking back at my high school days, I had a good friend who was into drugs. I got him into EverQuest. I wish he'd gotten me into drugs instead- there are well understood paths out of drug addiction. And that game messed the both of us up.
For me, and maybe others as well, it's about having control over something and feeling a sense of accomplishment, feeling like I'm achieving something. Video games give you that. For a small cost ($20-$50), you can have pure escapism from reality, think about things other than your shitty life and depression and instead feel yourself accomplish goals, achieve success, win. Unlike drugs or alcohol, it doesn't end- you can just keep coming back without paying anything. There's no chemical hangover, no blood test for it, no social stigma like drugs have. It's perfect.
My underlying problems have been dealt with now, but I still have to limit how long I play games for. The high is still there and I recognize it well. I just don't need it like I once did.
Looking back at my high school days, I had a good friend who was into drugs. I got him into EverQuest. I wish he'd gotten me into drugs instead- there are well understood paths out of drug addiction. And that game messed the both of us up.
I did both drugs and Everquest in highschool and I have to say I would rather walk through the Qeynos Hills than the other option.
There have been some publicized cases about Everquest...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/addicted-suicide-over-everquest...
I remember seeing the Everquest demo trailer video in an Electronic Boutique store and reading about it in PC magazine, I was astounded by the sheer level of depth. Especially the part where you could setup a physical real estate and sell stuff you gathered form the virtual world (I'm not sure if this existed in Everquest, just recall seeing bits of it in a magazine).
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/addicted-suicide-over-everquest...
I remember seeing the Everquest demo trailer video in an Electronic Boutique store and reading about it in PC magazine, I was astounded by the sheer level of depth. Especially the part where you could setup a physical real estate and sell stuff you gathered form the virtual world (I'm not sure if this existed in Everquest, just recall seeing bits of it in a magazine).
The accusations against Verant Interactive/Sony Online were that the EverQuest was designed to make you get addicted, play endlessly- that they knew what the consequences of these design decisions were.
An example: often bosses would spawn once every K hours- randomly. So you might have to wait a literal 24 hours in a row without ever seeing the boss you need to kill, and he has a 1 in X chance of dropping the item you actually wanted. There were no 'instance' dungeons- the whole server shared that one room with the boss, so maybe you go there to wait for the boss to spawn, and there's two other groups already waiting.
There is a lot about it that was akin to a slot machine and those people who sit and put money into the machine over and over, all day. The same reward mechanism in the brain was being triggered. And from the perspective of players, that waiting, that fighting bosses, all of that was work that you put in to get the reward. And that feeling of putting in work and achieving something- even something that isn't real- that was the addiction when it felt like you couldn't ever get that in real life.
Death in the game was a big deal too- you lost experience, lost maybe hours or days or work. You could lose a level! This triggered really complex fear-of-loss psychology, and for people already dealing with psychological issues (that's why they played EQ so much) there were always stories about the rage from dying. Just really unhealthy stuff all around.
I don't personally think it was designed to do this to humans, no truly malicious intent, but it did mess with people.
An example: often bosses would spawn once every K hours- randomly. So you might have to wait a literal 24 hours in a row without ever seeing the boss you need to kill, and he has a 1 in X chance of dropping the item you actually wanted. There were no 'instance' dungeons- the whole server shared that one room with the boss, so maybe you go there to wait for the boss to spawn, and there's two other groups already waiting.
There is a lot about it that was akin to a slot machine and those people who sit and put money into the machine over and over, all day. The same reward mechanism in the brain was being triggered. And from the perspective of players, that waiting, that fighting bosses, all of that was work that you put in to get the reward. And that feeling of putting in work and achieving something- even something that isn't real- that was the addiction when it felt like you couldn't ever get that in real life.
Death in the game was a big deal too- you lost experience, lost maybe hours or days or work. You could lose a level! This triggered really complex fear-of-loss psychology, and for people already dealing with psychological issues (that's why they played EQ so much) there were always stories about the rage from dying. Just really unhealthy stuff all around.
I don't personally think it was designed to do this to humans, no truly malicious intent, but it did mess with people.
I'm not entirely serious about the drug thing. I'm not saying I would have preferred a heroin addiction. I just wish he and I had instead done literally anything other than play Everquest.
The underlying root cause often is loneliness. Many addictions are just symptoms of loneliness.
There is some merit to this. The Rat Park experiment comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
Lots of difficulties replicating Rat Park.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9148292?dopt=Abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9148292?dopt=Abstract
I'm unconvinced this is true for physiological addiction (e.g. opiates).
You still need a reason to regularly take them in the first place, before the physical addiction kicks in.
For opiates, the reason is often being prescribed them for pain.
I don't really care if it fits the definition of mental health disorder or not. What matters is that we recognize self harming addiction arising from digital toxins, optimized to release quick dopamine hits to the user, and help them rehabilitate.
Similar to how some people believe depression is not a mental disorder because it's not "physical" and that they just need to think more "positive" like the non-depressed people, I think any sort of addiction, be it drugs or games needs to be addressed from a medical stand point of view.
Similar to how some people believe depression is not a mental disorder because it's not "physical" and that they just need to think more "positive" like the non-depressed people, I think any sort of addiction, be it drugs or games needs to be addressed from a medical stand point of view.
I hope this doesn't get abused.
Also, maybe a social media disorder is next on the list?
Also, maybe a social media disorder is next on the list?
Without a doubt. This should have been a far more serious consideration than gaming addiction.
I wish I could upvote this more. Compulsion addiction and those companys (FaceBook,Twitter,EA,King, ect) that promote and profit from it are a dangerous threat to society. And obviously destructive to the individuals they target.
Let's regulate ads that show unrealistic body images of people about men and women. They already done so in France.
[deleted]
I think that better acknowledgement of mental health conditions is generally a good thing. There's too much stigma around something being labeled as "mental health", when really I think everyone should view their own mental health as a work in progress, just like how physical health always has some room for improvement.
For mild cases, I think it's fine to say that playing video games obsessively is potentially problematic (and in this case, I think "mental health" is the obvious category for that sort of problem), just like how not getting enough exercise can be problematic for physical health.
When it gets bad enough to the point that people feel out of control of their lives, it absolutely deserves to be called a mental health problem, and it would be incredibly frustrating to seek professional help and hear "your problem isn't real", when it clearly is causing suffering. Acknowledging that you have a mental health problem and seeking professional help is already hard enough.
Whether you use terms like "mental health disorder" or "mental illness" feels like just an issue of semantics, and my understanding is it's often more an indication of severity rather than being something fundamentally different. Just because you acknowledge a thing called "gaming disorder" doesn't mean it needs to be treated with medication or any kind of extensive treatment; you can still apply reason within any individual case about what the right course of action is. But if it's not even in the vocabulary, there's no reasonable way for the medical community to talk about it and understand it.
For mild cases, I think it's fine to say that playing video games obsessively is potentially problematic (and in this case, I think "mental health" is the obvious category for that sort of problem), just like how not getting enough exercise can be problematic for physical health.
When it gets bad enough to the point that people feel out of control of their lives, it absolutely deserves to be called a mental health problem, and it would be incredibly frustrating to seek professional help and hear "your problem isn't real", when it clearly is causing suffering. Acknowledging that you have a mental health problem and seeking professional help is already hard enough.
Whether you use terms like "mental health disorder" or "mental illness" feels like just an issue of semantics, and my understanding is it's often more an indication of severity rather than being something fundamentally different. Just because you acknowledge a thing called "gaming disorder" doesn't mean it needs to be treated with medication or any kind of extensive treatment; you can still apply reason within any individual case about what the right course of action is. But if it's not even in the vocabulary, there's no reasonable way for the medical community to talk about it and understand it.
I think I would have met the qualifications for this as a 14 year old. My parents were going through a bad divorce and I spent all my time playing StarCraft to cope.
I had all the signs of addiction, I stopped hanging out with friends, I stayed awake all night, ate poorly and gave up in school. More than once I recognized my issue and smashed the CD, even one time glued it to a piece of paper and put it on our bulletin board for my mom to see. Two weeks later I'd be back playing at 3am.
I needed help but I don't think my parents knew what to do.
I had all the signs of addiction, I stopped hanging out with friends, I stayed awake all night, ate poorly and gave up in school. More than once I recognized my issue and smashed the CD, even one time glued it to a piece of paper and put it on our bulletin board for my mom to see. Two weeks later I'd be back playing at 3am.
I needed help but I don't think my parents knew what to do.
> I spent all my time playing StarCraft to cope
Stereotypes aside, a lot of Korean teenagers (for me, counter-strike and an early 2000 korean MMO called N-age ㅋㅋㅋ) went through this cycle. It was a form of escape, especially as a kid dealing with a stressful environment, I can see why some of us form a special bond with video games.
Another contributing factor is if in that environment, the prospect of earning six digit salary as a pro gamer is very real with poor job prospects in a hyper competitive society. The industry is rife with health issues that is conveniently ignored and unfortunately "mental disorders" are still viewed with the stigma one would attach to institutionalized patients, although its improving thanks to organizations like WHO setting a standard.
Stereotypes aside, a lot of Korean teenagers (for me, counter-strike and an early 2000 korean MMO called N-age ㅋㅋㅋ) went through this cycle. It was a form of escape, especially as a kid dealing with a stressful environment, I can see why some of us form a special bond with video games.
Another contributing factor is if in that environment, the prospect of earning six digit salary as a pro gamer is very real with poor job prospects in a hyper competitive society. The industry is rife with health issues that is conveniently ignored and unfortunately "mental disorders" are still viewed with the stigma one would attach to institutionalized patients, although its improving thanks to organizations like WHO setting a standard.
my personal reaction is 2 fold
WRT
>In one study, he found that when kids stopped being addicted to games, their depression and anxiety got better.
( 1 )
Is this study repeatable? (or does it suffer the fate of many (75%) psychology experiments that cannot be replicated [1]
( 2 )
Instagram, Facebook , -- would those, potentially, addiction-fueled activities, ever become subject to the WHO recommendation ?
[ 1 ] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delive...
WRT
>In one study, he found that when kids stopped being addicted to games, their depression and anxiety got better.
( 1 )
Is this study repeatable? (or does it suffer the fate of many (75%) psychology experiments that cannot be replicated [1]
( 2 )
Instagram, Facebook , -- would those, potentially, addiction-fueled activities, ever become subject to the WHO recommendation ?
[ 1 ] https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delive...
The replication claim has never been replicated either.
they have. repeatability problems have been found in various domains , including medicine and psychology which is of concern here
So, generally speaking, anything a large enough group of people would find themselves too passionately engaged in - can be considered at it's extremes as a disorder - from utilitarian, dominating "usefulness of the body" perspective? Ant world!
Then extreme sports go next? "Base jumping addiction" (deadly!) or let's just go big and make "adrenaline junkie" a serious medical condition? Who in Sci-Fi got this right?
Then extreme sports go next? "Base jumping addiction" (deadly!) or let's just go big and make "adrenaline junkie" a serious medical condition? Who in Sci-Fi got this right?
Whether gaming addiction is a disease or just a symptom, we need to treat both the cause and the symptoms.
I don't really care how we go about working the medical system to enable this.
I don't really care how we go about working the medical system to enable this.
Video games are obviously addictive. The way you make money off of games is to make them addictive. There is a direct feedback loop between more addictive games and more profits and so the addictiveness of games can be research, refined, and optimized over time.
The WHO is way behind the curve here.
If society treated video games the same as alcohol and drugs they would already be banned for minors. Eventually they probably will be.
The WHO is way behind the curve here.
If society treated video games the same as alcohol and drugs they would already be banned for minors. Eventually they probably will be.
<sarcasm>We should also ban other dangerously addictive activities, such as fiction books, non-video games, sports, DIY hobbies (e.g. electrical engineering, painting or storywriting), pets, hanging out with other people and lots of other things.</sacrasm>
I'm no expert on the matter, but I think you're completely missing the point. The keyword here is "gaming addiction" not "video games". Please, for the love of all the sanity that's still left out there, don't mistake one with another. There is a lot of things that one suffering from behavioral disorders could get addicted to. Unlike substance addictions (which are complicated matter), games (or overindulging in escapist fiction or having dozens of pets) are more of a symptom than an underlying cause.
If you'd try to ban just about everything that one could get hooked onto, it won't help the person a little bit with their impulse control. It would just make their and everyone else's lives dull and boring, probably leading to much more unhealthy situations (just my guess, though).
I'm no expert on the matter, but I think you're completely missing the point. The keyword here is "gaming addiction" not "video games". Please, for the love of all the sanity that's still left out there, don't mistake one with another. There is a lot of things that one suffering from behavioral disorders could get addicted to. Unlike substance addictions (which are complicated matter), games (or overindulging in escapist fiction or having dozens of pets) are more of a symptom than an underlying cause.
If you'd try to ban just about everything that one could get hooked onto, it won't help the person a little bit with their impulse control. It would just make their and everyone else's lives dull and boring, probably leading to much more unhealthy situations (just my guess, though).
All I said is that if video games were treated the same as drugs and alcohol they would be banned for minors.
Video games are just as addictive as alcohol, cigarettes, or cocaine and just as destructive in terms of seriously impairing the ability of addicts to function in a socially acceptable way.
If you think books or hobbies are as addictive or destructive as video games that is a matter of opinion, but I think most reasonable people (like mental health professionals) would disagree with you.
Even if any of the things you listed were as addictive or destructive as video games they are all missing one crucial aspect: the ability to optimize and enhance addictive properties over time.
There are billions of dollars being poured into enhancing and refining video games (making them more addictive) every year and the technology to do this (tracking player responses at a minute level and adapting games to maximize profits) can not be applied to any of the other things you listed the same as it can to video games.
Video games are just as addictive as alcohol, cigarettes, or cocaine and just as destructive in terms of seriously impairing the ability of addicts to function in a socially acceptable way.
If you think books or hobbies are as addictive or destructive as video games that is a matter of opinion, but I think most reasonable people (like mental health professionals) would disagree with you.
Even if any of the things you listed were as addictive or destructive as video games they are all missing one crucial aspect: the ability to optimize and enhance addictive properties over time.
There are billions of dollars being poured into enhancing and refining video games (making them more addictive) every year and the technology to do this (tracking player responses at a minute level and adapting games to maximize profits) can not be applied to any of the other things you listed the same as it can to video games.
> All I said is that if video games were treated the same as drugs and alcohol they would be banned for minors.
Sorry, I had possibly misinterpreted this as you not just comparing but actually suggesting treating video games similarly to alcohol and banning those to minors. My apologies if you didn't mean that.
If you did - I strongly disagree.
> Video games are just as addictive as alcohol, cigarettes
Sorry but this is nonsense. No video game binds with receptors in the brain and cause physical dependence. Please, let's not equate gaming with substance addictions.
> If you think books or hobbies are as addictive or destructive as video games that is a matter of opinion
There are people who lost their friends, jobs or have other problems in their lives because of their hobbies or obsessions. I knew some hardcore anime otakus who had some personal issues - shall we ban Japanese animation and comics?
But you missed the point, again. Let me reiterate: video games are retreat, not a cause. Banning them won't help the person who can't control their urges a single little bit. You would either leave them empty, concealing the issue, or they'll divert to something else.
Adding games to DSM is a good idea, though. If someone has addiction and it manifests into video gaming addiction, it's easy to measure this. I could be wrong but as I get it, that's the whole point, having a concept of unhealthy obsession - not that games are something undesirable on their own.
I believe you perceive video games as something special only because they're easiest thing available out there, making them the common retreat. That, plus existence of some games that specifically concentrate on abuse of the addictions (see my next point).
> tracking player responses at a minute level and adapting games to maximize profits
Sorry, but if I got you right - you're talking about some specific niche (or several niches) of video games, generalizing this to the whole industry. You'd probably want to complain about in-game purchases and microtransactions (or whatever else this stuff is called).
Upd: Sorry for edits - I re-read my comment and did some edits to it to better clarify what I've meant. Finished editing now.
Sorry, I had possibly misinterpreted this as you not just comparing but actually suggesting treating video games similarly to alcohol and banning those to minors. My apologies if you didn't mean that.
If you did - I strongly disagree.
> Video games are just as addictive as alcohol, cigarettes
Sorry but this is nonsense. No video game binds with receptors in the brain and cause physical dependence. Please, let's not equate gaming with substance addictions.
> If you think books or hobbies are as addictive or destructive as video games that is a matter of opinion
There are people who lost their friends, jobs or have other problems in their lives because of their hobbies or obsessions. I knew some hardcore anime otakus who had some personal issues - shall we ban Japanese animation and comics?
But you missed the point, again. Let me reiterate: video games are retreat, not a cause. Banning them won't help the person who can't control their urges a single little bit. You would either leave them empty, concealing the issue, or they'll divert to something else.
Adding games to DSM is a good idea, though. If someone has addiction and it manifests into video gaming addiction, it's easy to measure this. I could be wrong but as I get it, that's the whole point, having a concept of unhealthy obsession - not that games are something undesirable on their own.
I believe you perceive video games as something special only because they're easiest thing available out there, making them the common retreat. That, plus existence of some games that specifically concentrate on abuse of the addictions (see my next point).
> tracking player responses at a minute level and adapting games to maximize profits
Sorry, but if I got you right - you're talking about some specific niche (or several niches) of video games, generalizing this to the whole industry. You'd probably want to complain about in-game purchases and microtransactions (or whatever else this stuff is called).
Upd: Sorry for edits - I re-read my comment and did some edits to it to better clarify what I've meant. Finished editing now.
> We should also ban other dangerously addictive activities, such as fiction books, non-video games, sports, DIY hobbies
These can be addicting too, but certain video games can be on an entirely different level, ie. they fulfill many more psychological needs.
These can be addicting too, but certain video games can be on an entirely different level, ie. they fulfill many more psychological needs.
I really believe this is really a matter of taste. Don't think there something special about video games - surely they're a very common retreat but by no means an special one. There are people who are addicted to other activities just as bad as some are hooked on games. And even for games - what some would find highly addictive, others would find boring or even disgusting. So I really think there is nothing wrong with video games on their own - the problem is in the heads and games are just what frequently happens to be there.
What triggered my comment is a ban proposal for an extremely wide group, where a significant fraction doesn't have any particular issue with the subject at hand. Even if I'm unaffected by this particular proposal (I'm way past my teen years) I still find such ideas somewhat offensive. I may be naive or stupid but I don't fancy the very thought of someone being deprived of something fairly harmless to them just because others have issues.
What triggered my comment is a ban proposal for an extremely wide group, where a significant fraction doesn't have any particular issue with the subject at hand. Even if I'm unaffected by this particular proposal (I'm way past my teen years) I still find such ideas somewhat offensive. I may be naive or stupid but I don't fancy the very thought of someone being deprived of something fairly harmless to them just because others have issues.
Does anyone have any good books to recommend about gaming and mental health? Or, really, just gaming in general? Perhaps from a philosophical perspective?
[deleted]
What about HN/Reddit/whatever F5-ing disorder? :-)
yep, and we have football disorder, coding disorder, watching television disorder, 40 hours a week job disorder, dying in poverty disorder, bla bla bla.
retox(2)
nukeop(3)
>The disorder is characterized by "impaired control" with increasing priority given to
Oh please, then I assume every hobby in the world can be considered "hobby-name disorder". If it's something that help the millennium generation to relax and free their mind a few minutes /hours and if the society doesn't find something to come and reach the same level of satisfaction we found the "solution", it's a mental disorder... We really evolved... NOT
Oh please, then I assume every hobby in the world can be considered "hobby-name disorder". If it's something that help the millennium generation to relax and free their mind a few minutes /hours and if the society doesn't find something to come and reach the same level of satisfaction we found the "solution", it's a mental disorder... We really evolved... NOT
1. The purpose of DSM/ICD is often to justify financing treatment:
> Chris Ferguson, a professor of psychology at Stetson University ... described the ICD as "the book of real diseases that you can get insurance payments for."
2. Treatment has to be mindful of the specific form of addiction:
> "These are co-morbid conditions," he said. "If you just treat the depression and not gaming, the gaming is likely to come back." This suggests it's a unique condition, he said.
3. No we are not "medicializing everything":
> But Ferguson argued that, if it is a disorder, it seems to be very rare.
NB.
Before criticizing modern psychiatry keep in mind:
1. mental health patients are extreme in their dysfunction, never common.
2. the operation of the brain (, nervous system, etc.) in its interaction with its environment is as liable to breaking as any other part of the body
3. modern clinical psychiatry is an evidenced-based, research-driven field which treats and forms diagnoses on the basis of decades of research into any particular condition. It isnt the 1950s.