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Same hour at israel: newspapers are all about government corruption. Had that happened in Turkey the newspapers wouldn't be existing anymore.
Very good for Israel, hope they show this success in not killing innocent civilians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0dQVA5vwwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0dQVA5vwwo
Just go to a newspaper shop in Turkey and you will immediately see that you are wrong.
What would I see there? Newspapers reporting on Turkish government corruption or newspapers reporting on Israeli government corruption?
Both of course.
Seems like there are an awful lot of journalists being jailed for anything you say to be true.
By the way, lots of journalists who accused AK Party and Erdogan still out there and still making comments against Erdogan and AK Party.
If you like there is plenty and increasing and opposite to what NY Times claim they are all free to write and be communicated:
http://www.abcgazetesi.com/ http://halktv.com.tr/ http://www.diken.com.tr/
Sorry for them, they are not publishing in English. For your information take a look at this kind of news they report: http://www.diken.com.tr/thy-yakit-krizini-yalanladi-haber-ge...
They even report a delay, how come they will be silenced?
If you like there is plenty and increasing and opposite to what NY Times claim they are all free to write and be communicated:
http://www.abcgazetesi.com/ http://halktv.com.tr/ http://www.diken.com.tr/
Sorry for them, they are not publishing in English. For your information take a look at this kind of news they report: http://www.diken.com.tr/thy-yakit-krizini-yalanladi-haber-ge...
They even report a delay, how come they will be silenced?
The majority of jailed journalist are there under anti terrorn laws regarding the PKK. While its not something I support, you have to compare today’s Turkey with yesterday’s Turkey and not with today’s Sweden.
It was a crime to even claim to be Kurdish in the past. Elected mayors were jailed simply for saying they were ethnic kurds. Wearing a headscarf was illegal in schools, courts, etc. Even an AKP president’s wife was stopped from wearing a headacarf in a public hospital while visiting a wounded soldier!
In a way, I guess its a sign of Turkey and AKP’s success that we are now being held to European standards. There are 100 journalists in jail currently. Previous adminsitrations would have simply sent the government deatb squad to their doors and ended the matter rather more swiftly rather than subject itself to such Western critism over public statistics.
It was a crime to even claim to be Kurdish in the past. Elected mayors were jailed simply for saying they were ethnic kurds. Wearing a headscarf was illegal in schools, courts, etc. Even an AKP president’s wife was stopped from wearing a headacarf in a public hospital while visiting a wounded soldier!
In a way, I guess its a sign of Turkey and AKP’s success that we are now being held to European standards. There are 100 journalists in jail currently. Previous adminsitrations would have simply sent the government deatb squad to their doors and ended the matter rather more swiftly rather than subject itself to such Western critism over public statistics.
In a way, I guess its a sign of Turkey and AKP’s success that we are now being held to European standards.
As far as numbers of imprisoned journalists are concerned, Chinese standards would be an improvement. 150 journalists[1] doesn't sound like that much, until you realize that's something like half the global number...
[1] http://europeanjournalists.org/turkey-journalists-in-jail/
As far as numbers of imprisoned journalists are concerned, Chinese standards would be an improvement. 150 journalists[1] doesn't sound like that much, until you realize that's something like half the global number...
[1] http://europeanjournalists.org/turkey-journalists-in-jail/
Hey, why don't you try to support any terrorist group in your country? I am not talking about some pseudo-terror groups, talking about real ones, like PKK. The amount of civilians they killed might constitute a whole country.
The scope isn't quite the same, but Germany went through a series of left-wing terrorist attacks in the 70s.
There's a (German) article[1] by Günther Nollau, former president of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, that might be of interest. The title translates to something like Sympathy alone is no criminal offence.
I have only cursorily followed what has been happening in Turkey, but newspapers getting shut down, rulings by the constitutional court getting ignored and a president who unironically cited Nazi Germany as inspiration for a functioning presidential system raise quite a few alarm bells...
[1] http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-40831680.html
There's a (German) article[1] by Günther Nollau, former president of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, that might be of interest. The title translates to something like Sympathy alone is no criminal offence.
I have only cursorily followed what has been happening in Turkey, but newspapers getting shut down, rulings by the constitutional court getting ignored and a president who unironically cited Nazi Germany as inspiration for a functioning presidential system raise quite a few alarm bells...
[1] http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-40831680.html
This is not 1977 unfortunately. Try ISIS in Germany or in social media, if you are confident enough about the division between sympathizer and supporter.
http://www.dw.com/en/europol-probes-islamic-state-created-so...
http://www.dw.com/en/europol-probes-islamic-state-created-so...
For the curious, this is a typical show on Adnan Oktar's TV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYOlCxMXksc
What? That would've been less creepy if he had actually gotten a lap dance.
That would not be allowed in Islam.
NYT names this guy as "a satellite television preacher named Adnan Oktar." . I have hard time contemplating what's happening in this show.
He's... preaching. https://balkanist.net/the-islamic-sex-cult-supporting-turkey...
> Followers of Harun Yahya wear drag make-up and practice a “sexed-up, Disney version of Islam” that helps promote conservative Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s vision of a modern, Muslim Turkey.
Of course, he also writes for the Huffington Post: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/harun-yahya
> Followers of Harun Yahya wear drag make-up and practice a “sexed-up, Disney version of Islam” that helps promote conservative Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s vision of a modern, Muslim Turkey.
Of course, he also writes for the Huffington Post: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/harun-yahya
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To be fair, Turkey never had free internet or free press. Actually, things were worse in secular times.
While Turkey was only a half-democacy before, the current situation is far worse than in the 90's up until about 2008. Post-coup era 80's can maybe a good comparison, but the generals did leave power on their own, and free elections did take place. They won't now, for the foreseeable future.
I was in Turkey during that time, it was noy better for the bast majority of people. Turkey had a per capita gdp <$3k and i vividly recall seeing shoeless people even in the wealthiest areas of Istanbul. Totally changed today, Turkey is richer (per capita) than many EU member states.
>Turkey is richer (per capita) than many EU member states.
To be precise: than 2 of them, Bulgaria and Romania. Out of the 28.
https://www.google.de/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&m...
To be precise: than 2 of them, Bulgaria and Romania. Out of the 28.
https://www.google.de/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&m...
The funny thing is, many people there believe that Turkey is one of the most advanced economies. The propaganda machine is amazingly successful. The person you are replying to has access to all the information to see how wrong those arguments are, yet simply ignores everything. I said funny but I mean more like a tragicomedy.
Oh my. I find it amazing how many people came out of the woodwork to either defend this exact act or to defend Erdogan's Turkey.
> Don't get mad at him, you can work around it anyway, and he is great for us.
> Don't get mad at him, Israel is the real bad guy.
> Don't get mad at him, America is just as bad.
> Don't get mad at him, he is saving Syria and struggling to keep his nation together.
The next time I am outside the Turkish Embassy and Erdogan's associates are out there seeing if the toe of their boots fit firmly in the mouths of Liberal Turks, Kurdistan supporters, anyone who doesn't love the AKP, I'll remind those getting curbstompped that they shouldn't be mad at Erdogan because everyone else is at fault.
> Don't get mad at him, you can work around it anyway, and he is great for us.
> Don't get mad at him, Israel is the real bad guy.
> Don't get mad at him, America is just as bad.
> Don't get mad at him, he is saving Syria and struggling to keep his nation together.
The next time I am outside the Turkish Embassy and Erdogan's associates are out there seeing if the toe of their boots fit firmly in the mouths of Liberal Turks, Kurdistan supporters, anyone who doesn't love the AKP, I'll remind those getting curbstompped that they shouldn't be mad at Erdogan because everyone else is at fault.
myf01d(6)
aerodog(9)
It's been my 4 years already living and working abroad. I love my country :) A lot of people going through harsh times though.
After 10 years in this wonderful place called Germany, while witnessing the deterioration back in my homeland, I sort of got over the meaningless dedication to Turkey rooted from the mere fact that I was born there. Why should I love Turkey? I kept asking this question to myself for so long that the process made the answer irrelevant.
I say, let it go worse, crash and burn. I keep thinking about the wonders that process did to many nations.
Well, maybe Erdoğan knows something we don't and in the end I'll look like those people who didn't invest in bitcoin when it was worth not even a Euro. Maybe Islamic Dictatorship was the solution after all? Hah. Never mind. I couldn't care less.
With the changing tides, these days, it feels like everyone needs to be, or at least needs to act like, a nationalist. I won't and I also won't write this stuff from throwaway accounts.
I say, let it go worse, crash and burn. I keep thinking about the wonders that process did to many nations.
Well, maybe Erdoğan knows something we don't and in the end I'll look like those people who didn't invest in bitcoin when it was worth not even a Euro. Maybe Islamic Dictatorship was the solution after all? Hah. Never mind. I couldn't care less.
With the changing tides, these days, it feels like everyone needs to be, or at least needs to act like, a nationalist. I won't and I also won't write this stuff from throwaway accounts.
I feel you, though not born in Turkey (born in Germany to Turkish parents).
Where does "love for Turkey" come from? Patriotism / nationalism has been part of Turkish culture for a long time; the origin can be attribute to the state-supported mythology that recounts the succession of dozens of Turkish states over millenia, the Independence War and all that. It can also be attribute to the "collectivist" or nomadic origins of culture and language, the actual history as influenced by the fact that ethnic Turks moved to present day Turkey (to the extent culture and language can be traced; maybe that is not much).
There is no more Turkish republic anymore... but whatever you think of politics and whether a nation is something that can be loved, whether you are personally affected or not, I think seeing a democracy go crash and burn is disturbing.
Erdoğan has successfully built a climate of fear where expat Turkish folks are afraid to voice criticism because they have relatives in Turkey. (Sure, it is no different for, say, China today; but IMHO it was never as bad for so many people in Turkey. It was certainly just as bad for fewer people before).
A majority of votes can be organized for populist crude nationalist ideas. However, it is very sad that after the AKP claimed democratization and achieved stability, it swung back to create the same conditions that have created brain-drain before have been recreated.
And far worse, so that the whole development path for Turkey is blocked for decades to come.
There are bright and capable people who for these short-sighted reasons will never succeed; it isn't rational for a leader, even for one who only seeks to extract wealth from a country, to follow such a strategy. So it is just a waste. Which wonders will come out of it? Another authoritarian state.
The overall cake could have been bigger and everybody could have benefited. And the irony is - like with Trump - that the people who think they are in control because they voted AKP are going to be the ones who will suffer and lose most.
If you want "I don't care" to be your shield of protection, I can understand and respect that... but it is disheartening that there doesn't seem to be much that one can do as an individual.
And it is quite possible that if the majority of Turkish support this system, then there may not be a way to avoid it. However, since you live in Germany: the Nazi party also got in control by dismantling the democracy, and we won't be able to say "I don't care" the crimes against humanity they committed. There are disturbing parallels.
Where does "love for Turkey" come from? Patriotism / nationalism has been part of Turkish culture for a long time; the origin can be attribute to the state-supported mythology that recounts the succession of dozens of Turkish states over millenia, the Independence War and all that. It can also be attribute to the "collectivist" or nomadic origins of culture and language, the actual history as influenced by the fact that ethnic Turks moved to present day Turkey (to the extent culture and language can be traced; maybe that is not much).
There is no more Turkish republic anymore... but whatever you think of politics and whether a nation is something that can be loved, whether you are personally affected or not, I think seeing a democracy go crash and burn is disturbing.
Erdoğan has successfully built a climate of fear where expat Turkish folks are afraid to voice criticism because they have relatives in Turkey. (Sure, it is no different for, say, China today; but IMHO it was never as bad for so many people in Turkey. It was certainly just as bad for fewer people before).
A majority of votes can be organized for populist crude nationalist ideas. However, it is very sad that after the AKP claimed democratization and achieved stability, it swung back to create the same conditions that have created brain-drain before have been recreated.
And far worse, so that the whole development path for Turkey is blocked for decades to come.
There are bright and capable people who for these short-sighted reasons will never succeed; it isn't rational for a leader, even for one who only seeks to extract wealth from a country, to follow such a strategy. So it is just a waste. Which wonders will come out of it? Another authoritarian state.
The overall cake could have been bigger and everybody could have benefited. And the irony is - like with Trump - that the people who think they are in control because they voted AKP are going to be the ones who will suffer and lose most.
If you want "I don't care" to be your shield of protection, I can understand and respect that... but it is disheartening that there doesn't seem to be much that one can do as an individual.
And it is quite possible that if the majority of Turkish support this system, then there may not be a way to avoid it. However, since you live in Germany: the Nazi party also got in control by dismantling the democracy, and we won't be able to say "I don't care" the crimes against humanity they committed. There are disturbing parallels.
You are absolutely right. I just have a few notes to add.
You could probably guess that I still hurt inside a little bit when I suggest that I'd shut my eyes to the catastrophe happening in my homeland. My point is, with the despair caused by the lack of things to do and the abundant real-life "Ididocracy" going on, I got used to it to the point that I can ignore it. I don't want to live my life fighting an uphill battle against brainwashed folks.
In the unlikely event that it happens here as well, I guess I'd just take my wife and flee... again. Maybe I could say that not caring is not my shield, it's my only rational move.
You could probably guess that I still hurt inside a little bit when I suggest that I'd shut my eyes to the catastrophe happening in my homeland. My point is, with the despair caused by the lack of things to do and the abundant real-life "Ididocracy" going on, I got used to it to the point that I can ignore it. I don't want to live my life fighting an uphill battle against brainwashed folks.
In the unlikely event that it happens here as well, I guess I'd just take my wife and flee... again. Maybe I could say that not caring is not my shield, it's my only rational move.
Some countries do not need to restrict the Internet because they have the means to manipulate public opinion.
Other countries have no other choice, but to restrict Internet access as this is a cheaper way to achieve same.
When I see some news title: "Turkey is restricting the Internet", I deduce a) we are being manipulated in this very moment in fine ways by countries of first group via this news title, and b) it seems Turkey has no means to fight back on same manipulation level, so they have to restrict Internet usage.
Not a justification for anyone to influence Internet, but also not that simple as the title suggests.
Other countries have no other choice, but to restrict Internet access as this is a cheaper way to achieve same.
When I see some news title: "Turkey is restricting the Internet", I deduce a) we are being manipulated in this very moment in fine ways by countries of first group via this news title, and b) it seems Turkey has no means to fight back on same manipulation level, so they have to restrict Internet usage.
Not a justification for anyone to influence Internet, but also not that simple as the title suggests.
Very biased and clumsy attempt to smear Turkey and its government. O.K. AK Party may not be the best in world history, O.K. President Erdogan may not be "the one" but they are in overall is O.K. Pretty damn good in fact... There are many shortcomings about both President Erdogan and AK Party but they at least try for their citizens. I am very well educated about the political history of Turkey and can confidently say that if the US archives will be opened for 1950s and 1960s we may be able to better understand these smear attempts. There are many suspectful grey areas that US might get involved.
Also apparently, Ms./Mrs.CARLOTTA GALL does not give any damn about reflecting realities. Rather she consciously prefers to be an instrument of perception management. It is a shame for her to give Adnan OKTAR as an example. She probably did not do her homework about him. Also, how the hell she just contacted the OKTAR cult with some freedom seeking activity? Is she mad? The guy even has a medical report for insanity, he did not get awarded as insane in near history, it goes to 1980s...
Moreover, the beloved Turkish left, the amount of intelligence operations Turkey leftist movements has been part of may be enough to eradicate the whole European governments, you can call it EU if you want, after WWII... It is partially also true for rightist but at least they are not trying to denigrate their own country...
I hope US public will try to know my country and our nation/nations, there are many-including Arabs, Kurds, Circassians, Armenians, Greek, Hebrew etc. better and get their blinders,CARLOTTA GALL kind of blinders-there are many of them out there, off. And I also hope that US government and state get their shit straight because it will be helpful both countries and their nations...
Also apparently, Ms./Mrs.CARLOTTA GALL does not give any damn about reflecting realities. Rather she consciously prefers to be an instrument of perception management. It is a shame for her to give Adnan OKTAR as an example. She probably did not do her homework about him. Also, how the hell she just contacted the OKTAR cult with some freedom seeking activity? Is she mad? The guy even has a medical report for insanity, he did not get awarded as insane in near history, it goes to 1980s...
Moreover, the beloved Turkish left, the amount of intelligence operations Turkey leftist movements has been part of may be enough to eradicate the whole European governments, you can call it EU if you want, after WWII... It is partially also true for rightist but at least they are not trying to denigrate their own country...
I hope US public will try to know my country and our nation/nations, there are many-including Arabs, Kurds, Circassians, Armenians, Greek, Hebrew etc. better and get their blinders,CARLOTTA GALL kind of blinders-there are many of them out there, off. And I also hope that US government and state get their shit straight because it will be helpful both countries and their nations...
If this sort of thing is where we're all headed as the world polarizes further, Hacker News is doomed. But perhaps we can stave doom off for a while longer. I'm going to ban the accounts that behaved the worst below and then shut down this thread.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html