Caffeine and Cannabis Effects on Vital Neurotransmitters in Rats(ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Caffeine and Cannabis Effects on Vital Neurotransmitters in Rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5448447/
73 comments
I am a total layman, so could somebody explain the significance of this study? Obviously those substances alter the brain chemistry, that is not surprising, I think. How are those changes significant? Is there cause for concern?
> Is there cause for concern?
There is really nothing surprising about the findings. Also note that the animals' brain tissues were analyzed 24 hours after last administration, so it says little to nothing about permanent effects (which have never been found in other studies, afaik). I really don't get why trivial/unsurprising findings like this raise so high on HN.
There is really nothing surprising about the findings. Also note that the animals' brain tissues were analyzed 24 hours after last administration, so it says little to nothing about permanent effects (which have never been found in other studies, afaik). I really don't get why trivial/unsurprising findings like this raise so high on HN.
Software engineers (myself included) love thinking that they so smart that they follow other fields up to the latest research.
(It doesn't mean that we're necessarily wrong though).
(It doesn't mean that we're necessarily wrong though).
Its not limited to software engineers. Theres no shortage of blowhards that conflate knowing and understanding.
Yep - illusion of explanatory depth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062901/
My background is in biology (PhD, Biophysics) but I do software engineering. Few SWEs who follow biology have any clue or understanding, and easily get fooled by bio papers.
Caffeine and cannabis work together.
> However, the combination of cannabis and caffeine mostly caused synergetic response in the level of the neurotransmitters; this implies that both substances produced their individual effects and did not cancel out the effects of one another. This is also expected since they bind primarily to various receptors. Thus, the resultant relative hyper increase is the cumulative effect of their individual influences.
> However, the combination of cannabis and caffeine mostly caused synergetic response in the level of the neurotransmitters; this implies that both substances produced their individual effects and did not cancel out the effects of one another. This is also expected since they bind primarily to various receptors. Thus, the resultant relative hyper increase is the cumulative effect of their individual influences.
Colloquially known as a hippie speedball.
I rarely enjoy this during the work week, but it is definitely a Sunday morning staple. Great for steady mellow productivity.
Two quite different drugs don't entirely cancel out? An extraordinary finding indeed. We need to do more research.
I remember reading a lot about it canceling each other, this is pretty important.
Never heard about it, been smoking for 10+ years.
Same. To comment further: I still really enjoy my coffee.
Been smoking for a long time and a massive coffee drinker to the point work thinks something's wrong with me and Ive never felt the effects some of my googling describes regardless of my then Cannabis and Caffine intake.
> Caffeine and cannabis work together.
I wonder if it is a more extreme version of drinking tea? Tea has a calming chemical (Theanine), and caffeine so you end up with more of a mellow energy instead of the hyper energy from coffee.
I wonder if it is a more extreme version of drinking tea? Tea has a calming chemical (Theanine), and caffeine so you end up with more of a mellow energy instead of the hyper energy from coffee.
Theanine is also a fairly common substance in the smartdrugs community. People often stack it with caffeine to improve concentration and supress the jumpiness that caffeine often causes in higher doses.
No. After a quick look, 1) the main point seems to be toward juveniles 2) this isn't a particularly in-depth study. As you said, substances alter chemistry, no surprise.
To be clear, there's evidence elsewhere that caffeine and cannabis can have a negative impact on the developing brain, but the data here don't really go in depth on that.
To be clear, there's evidence elsewhere that caffeine and cannabis can have a negative impact on the developing brain, but the data here don't really go in depth on that.
Caffiene affects the brain.
Cannabis affects the brain.
Using both together affects the brain more than we'd expect.
Probably don't let children[1] use cannabis or caffiene, but certainly protect them from heavy long term use of either.
[1] child is hard to define, but maybe anyone under 21.
Cannabis affects the brain.
Using both together affects the brain more than we'd expect.
Probably don't let children[1] use cannabis or caffiene, but certainly protect them from heavy long term use of either.
[1] child is hard to define, but maybe anyone under 21.
There is none. Rat/mice studies are used as very early steps to point directions for actually significant studies in human populations.
These reports really need TL;DRs.
same here... good? bad? surprisingly good? etc.?
> Is there cause for concern?
Accidentally smoking your coffee and brewing your cannabis will make for a rough day I imagine
Accidentally smoking your coffee and brewing your cannabis will make for a rough day I imagine
Brewing your cannabis will lead to a disgusting liquid, but nothing else. You'll feel bad but it will have no effects of cannabis because there will be zero THC. THC binds to fat so you have to add butter or oil to the water.
Yeah, which is why I question their results for cannabis: "Cannabis aqueous extract was prepared by first blending the dried leaves, and then blending the dried leaves in fine powder using a dry blender. The fine powder was thereafter soaked in water for about 12 h and filtered; the substrate was evaporated to dryness, weighed, and then prepared into the mixture of suitable concentrations for the various animal groups".
They also don't appear to have tested this solution for levels of THC, CBD, or anything else. Seems like a pretty poorly designed study. I'm somewhat surprised it even got published.
They also don't appear to have tested this solution for levels of THC, CBD, or anything else. Seems like a pretty poorly designed study. I'm somewhat surprised it even got published.
You can make a tincture by combining cannabis with strong alcohol though.
Is it like cold brew coffee but cannabis and liquor?
If both can't significantly change neurotransmitters, that would be a splash
> 100 mg/kg
I don’t know about mice, but for a human, that would be a lot of caffeine.
I don’t know about mice, but for a human, that would be a lot of caffeine.
It probably isn’t for mice. They always have a much higher mg/kg value.
100mg/kg is ~4–5mg for a mouse.
100mg/kg is ~4–5mg for a mouse.
> 100mg/kg is ~4–5mg for a mouse.
A small absolute amount, but a very large amount relative to body weight, which is what matters. For a human, that's the equivalent of 70 x 8 oz cups of coffee.
A small absolute amount, but a very large amount relative to body weight, which is what matters. For a human, that's the equivalent of 70 x 8 oz cups of coffee.
yes, that's about half the LD50 for humans. Definitely more than you would consume as a non-addict on a regular day.
A cup of drip coffee is what, 90mg? (Source: https://www.coffeechemistry.com/chemistry/alkaloids/caffeine...) So 100 mg/kg would be 70-90 cups of coffee. I'm wired after 4-6 cups.
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I suspect is µg/kg
The article mentions "cannabis abuse" a few times, what metric is there to put use into the abuse column?
Using when illegal seems to be the common definition.
Use turns into abuse when the person is aware of harmful effects but continues to use. Or when the person wishes to discontinue use but is unable to.
Some definitions include very high rates of use.
Some definitions include very high rates of use.
It has to be more than just "is aware of harmful effects but continues to use", otherwise anyone who is aware of the existence of hangovers (or other negative effects) but continues to drink alcohol is "abusing" it.
It would have to be something like "the person using the substance doesn't feel that the positive effects are worth the negative effects but they still cannot stop using it."
It would have to be something like "the person using the substance doesn't feel that the positive effects are worth the negative effects but they still cannot stop using it."
Coffee, weed and plenty of water.
What is a vital vs non-vital neurotransmitter? They don't define this in the paper so that term seems totally superfluous.
paper affiliation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babcock_University
Maybe more informative is https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-nutr-...
Maybe paywalled so I'll emphasize the last sentence of the abstract: "Given the spectrum of conditions studied and the robustness of many of the results, these findings indicate that coffee can be part of a healthful diet."
Maybe paywalled so I'll emphasize the last sentence of the abstract: "Given the spectrum of conditions studied and the robustness of many of the results, these findings indicate that coffee can be part of a healthful diet."
Looks like a crap article in a crap journal. In the abstract they refer to cannabis as a stimulant, which seems quite incorrect. Also the results are unsurprising and not very exciting.
The word "stimulant" refers to this:
> The levels of G-6-PDH were increased in the brain tissues of all the treated animals (Fig. (Fig.5).5). Caffeine produced quite more significant effects relative to cannabis and the combination of both increased the level of G-6-PDH greatly.
> The levels of G-6-PDH were increased in the brain tissues of all the treated animals (Fig. (Fig.5).5). Caffeine produced quite more significant effects relative to cannabis and the combination of both increased the level of G-6-PDH greatly.
Cannabis seems to bridge the gap between all major drug types with it simultaneously acting as a stimulate, depressant and psychedelic with the depressant being the most obvious to a user.
Nothing has ever done me more good than this combination. My biggest success in work at my current company, a big API-first platform for insurance comparison was built from scratch in 2 weeks time, spent locked inside my apartment, coffee machine running 24/7, a 100mg cookie in the morning and a joint every 2 hours. No one knows.
For anyone looking to recreate this apparently successful combination: 100mg of THC is enough to reduce most people to a state of fearful catatonia or induce an acute nervous breakdown. Combine that with loads of caffeine and you'll likely feel very bad for a very long time.
For anyone really looking to recreate this and not already consuming THC: I already smoke every day! Obviously! Even a joint every 2 hours would put your lights out after a while. Go slow and use a vaporizer. I already have tolerance.
I am convinced that cannabis improves concentration and eliminates feelings of boredom. I always was average at best at football. I smoked cannabis before a match once. It was by far the best match I ever played and I scored thrice.
Of course, this is anecdotal evidence and could be a coincidence, but I am firmly convinced of the effect.
Of course, this is anecdotal evidence and could be a coincidence, but I am firmly convinced of the effect.
> I am convinced that cannabis improves concentration
> I am firmly convinced of the effect
It actually impairs attention and affects short-term memory.
> I am firmly convinced of the effect
It actually impairs attention and affects short-term memory.
It's always tricky extrapolating from focal cognitive effects to overall performance. For example, small amounts of cannabis or alcohol can also greatly attenuate the obsessive internal rumination (a.k.a., "the jitters") that can sabotage many kinds of performance.
Of course, it's dose-dependent, because eventually the detrimental effects on attention and memory (as you correctly point out) will outweigh the beneficial anxiolytic effects.
Of course, it's dose-dependent, because eventually the detrimental effects on attention and memory (as you correctly point out) will outweigh the beneficial anxiolytic effects.
> It actually impairs attention and affects short-term memory.
And it kills your sperm as well. I think that these are long-term effects though, I was talking about the direct effects (the dose probably matters as well).
It actually makes sense that the use of cannabis improves attention but impairs attention in the long run. Compare it with drinking coffee. The first time I drank a strong cup, I had a strong boost of energy and felt a little euphoric even. I am now a heavy caffeine user, and when I don't drink coffee I actually feel more tired than usual.
And it kills your sperm as well. I think that these are long-term effects though, I was talking about the direct effects (the dose probably matters as well).
It actually makes sense that the use of cannabis improves attention but impairs attention in the long run. Compare it with drinking coffee. The first time I drank a strong cup, I had a strong boost of energy and felt a little euphoric even. I am now a heavy caffeine user, and when I don't drink coffee I actually feel more tired than usual.
Sorry, but after 10 years of smoking almost every day (and stopping for months completely in between), I can assure you that this isn't true. At least not in the generalized form. Everyone is different. I have ADHD, for example. Cannabis naturally calms me down to actually focus, it makes me function. I start cleaning and programming where 10 minutes before I was all over the place mentally. I've tried Amphetamines but the side effects are just incredible. Of course there's also the guy who will let his apartment go to complete waste and stop caring, but you can't generalize effects of a substance. Some react completely differently.
I was also stating that cannabis improves focus for me. That is, directly after use. I have never been a regular cannabis user so I can't comment on my experience on the long term (I was just stating that I wouldn't be surprised if cannabis had a negative effect on your focus in the long run - just like prolonged caffeine use has on your energy level).
Edit: Ha, makes sense now ;)
Edit: Ha, makes sense now ;)
I'm sorry, I wanted to reply to the guy you replied to too. There you go. Hands off the lettuce, kids!
It’s a great combination. Kind of easy to get out of hand but also not the worst to scale back, at least for me.
Yeah you have to mind the tolerance, if it gets too high you're going to experience some serious side effects from the grams of caffeine every day, and the guaranteed "withdrawal" when you have to cut down is not very nice either.
The THC isn't the problem. All in all I completely agree. Microdosing LSD is also a great thing to do but does get incredibly exhausting after a while.
The THC isn't the problem. All in all I completely agree. Microdosing LSD is also a great thing to do but does get incredibly exhausting after a while.
Yeah coffee is really psychologically addicting for me. The smell is amazing. It’s hard to imagine many things without coffee 3 days in. Rough to get off. Have never fully succeeded. Last attempt lasted 3-4 months before failing recently. Coffee is so strong!
People who microdose ____ are very interesting to me because I can’t imagine having access to (i) drugs (ii) precise scales to microdose.
People who microdose ____ are very interesting to me because I can’t imagine having access to (i) drugs (ii) precise scales to microdose.
(i) You have access to drugs too.
(ii) Volumetric dosing
I hope we start studying this more. I was never a regular user, but I tried it a few times and spent a lot of time in smoky rooms.
One of the reasons I didn’t use it was that it really impacted my ability to do things like mental arthmetric. I worked in sales in school and I remember being freaked out as it felt like a part of my brain was powered down.
I can normally do most addition/multiplication/approximate averages faster than I can type. The time I ran into this I couldn’t spit out an answer for sales tax or add a few numbers together! :)
I’m curious as to why the effect on me was so different than what you experience!
One of the reasons I didn’t use it was that it really impacted my ability to do things like mental arthmetric. I worked in sales in school and I remember being freaked out as it felt like a part of my brain was powered down.
I can normally do most addition/multiplication/approximate averages faster than I can type. The time I ran into this I couldn’t spit out an answer for sales tax or add a few numbers together! :)
I’m curious as to why the effect on me was so different than what you experience!
Definitely depends on yourself and the strain. I will mostly be able to think extremely abstract and with a very high level of creativity and detail, multi-layered even. Meditation has changed the effects considerably, as long as you're lost in the content of thought, interpreting it as new thoughts, the high is just too overpowering. When you're present you can direct your paradigm and steer the direction of thought waaay better. I guess it all comes down to how self aware you are. I've noticed a general trend to calmer, more tranquil highs as 1) I got older, 2) smoked longer, 3) meditated more and 4) with rising tolerance. Also after psychedelics for some weird reason.
Really depends on the strain you smoked and how much THC vs. CBD it contained.
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Please stop posting these pre-clinical studies on rats and mice! No one should ever be taking anything away from these sorts of studies for human health.
This paper is useless garbage in terms of telling us anything about humans who consume either or both of these drugs.
https://youtu.be/DTY3GQPXU7A