There’s a new version of Firefox for VR(theverge.com)
theverge.com
There’s a new version of Firefox for VR
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/3/17192186/mozilla-firefox-reality-browser-announce-standalone-headset-vive-focus
34 comments
Yes, it's very barebones right now, as the team has been focused on getting performance great inside of standalone headsets. We've found from early adopters of 3DoF and 6DoF standalone VR headsets that media consumption (videos, news, twitch, etc.) is the primary use case and unfortunately pretty choppy and poor today.
We'll absolutely build out the UI and feature set (especially WebVR/WebXR!), but wanted to release as early as possible to transition away from private builds, design, and feedback to public conversations with users, developers, and device manufacturers.
And obviously we're investing in more the ecosystem - we need WebXR fully standardized and supported by all browsers, tools, engines, and frameworks. We also need lots of great content and social experiences that work on the web. We and others are investing a lot in this space - it's going to be an exciting summer!
We'll absolutely build out the UI and feature set (especially WebVR/WebXR!), but wanted to release as early as possible to transition away from private builds, design, and feedback to public conversations with users, developers, and device manufacturers.
And obviously we're investing in more the ecosystem - we need WebXR fully standardized and supported by all browsers, tools, engines, and frameworks. We also need lots of great content and social experiences that work on the web. We and others are investing a lot in this space - it's going to be an exciting summer!
In the description of the video you posted it says it's running on VIVE Focus (an untethered mobile device)
I agree, that browsing the 2D Web in a VR headset is not very compelling, but I can see it being the first step for many companies to do.
If you're interested, we've built/shipped a full 3D/VR browser as part of the YC W18 batch, ditching the flat 2D Web. http://store.steampowered.com/app/803010/Supermedium/
If you're interested, we've built/shipped a full 3D/VR browser as part of the YC W18 batch, ditching the flat 2D Web. http://store.steampowered.com/app/803010/Supermedium/
This is so 100% not what I want.
I want Unreal Engine, running full time. When I go into a World, it starts downloading the neighboring worlds. When I touch a Portkey or walk through a Portal or answer a ringing phone in a phonebooth, I'm now in the next world.
That's what a "VR browser" is, to me.
A loadable Unreal Engine level is the new "HTTP / CSS / JS." And in those levels, there need to be "Hyperlinks" that let me navigate to a new level. Give me some kind of Back button, and some way to enter a new "URL." URLs probably need # anchors with 6-degree-of-freedom starting positions embedded in them.
Some worlds are single-user instances, some are multi-user (party rooms with your friends), some are like MMOs.
All of our current VR technology feels like the equivalent of downloading a PostScript file over FTP. The Web kicked ass, because it had embedded Images, and Hyperlinks - you never left it, and it felt beautifully immersive.
I want to never leave VR, and for it to be beautifully immersive.
What's "Reddit" look like? It's a museum. There are images hanging on the wall. Under them is a cute plaque with the Title, and an Up and Down button, and a Comments. You can record a VR video comment. You can record an Audio comment. You can type a comment. You can be in a live VR / or maybe Video / or maybe Audio / or maybe IRC chat room, discussing that image. The items in the museum are sorted by Popular / Best / Hot / New / Controversial, and you can change it. There are also VR Objects that we're voting on. (Websites like this exist, but they aren't IN VR.) There are Videos. There are Portals to Worlds that you can hop into, and then hop back out.
I also don't just want a "VR Browser," I want a "VR OS." The same way different Window Managers were all the rage on X, I want there to be lively debate about the best Application Managers in VR. Do they act like a HUD? How does Copy and Paste work? Is there Object Linking and Embedding? How do you get interrupted by Facebook Messenger? What is it like to have two VR apps at the same time?
INNOVATE, PEOPLE. We don't know the answers to these questions, but they are for sure OPERATING SYSTEM questions. We keep screwing around within each game. But that's like putting a floppy in your PC and BOOTING FROM THAT DISK (no OS). DOS and later Windows were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from how we used to boot, and required lots of changes in behavior. We need that, for VR, now.
I want Unreal Engine, running full time. When I go into a World, it starts downloading the neighboring worlds. When I touch a Portkey or walk through a Portal or answer a ringing phone in a phonebooth, I'm now in the next world.
That's what a "VR browser" is, to me.
A loadable Unreal Engine level is the new "HTTP / CSS / JS." And in those levels, there need to be "Hyperlinks" that let me navigate to a new level. Give me some kind of Back button, and some way to enter a new "URL." URLs probably need # anchors with 6-degree-of-freedom starting positions embedded in them.
Some worlds are single-user instances, some are multi-user (party rooms with your friends), some are like MMOs.
All of our current VR technology feels like the equivalent of downloading a PostScript file over FTP. The Web kicked ass, because it had embedded Images, and Hyperlinks - you never left it, and it felt beautifully immersive.
I want to never leave VR, and for it to be beautifully immersive.
What's "Reddit" look like? It's a museum. There are images hanging on the wall. Under them is a cute plaque with the Title, and an Up and Down button, and a Comments. You can record a VR video comment. You can record an Audio comment. You can type a comment. You can be in a live VR / or maybe Video / or maybe Audio / or maybe IRC chat room, discussing that image. The items in the museum are sorted by Popular / Best / Hot / New / Controversial, and you can change it. There are also VR Objects that we're voting on. (Websites like this exist, but they aren't IN VR.) There are Videos. There are Portals to Worlds that you can hop into, and then hop back out.
I also don't just want a "VR Browser," I want a "VR OS." The same way different Window Managers were all the rage on X, I want there to be lively debate about the best Application Managers in VR. Do they act like a HUD? How does Copy and Paste work? Is there Object Linking and Embedding? How do you get interrupted by Facebook Messenger? What is it like to have two VR apps at the same time?
INNOVATE, PEOPLE. We don't know the answers to these questions, but they are for sure OPERATING SYSTEM questions. We keep screwing around within each game. But that's like putting a floppy in your PC and BOOTING FROM THAT DISK (no OS). DOS and later Windows were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from how we used to boot, and required lots of changes in behavior. We need that, for VR, now.
There's been stuff like this going back to the 90s, and nobody actually wants this after they've tried it. You just don't have a lot of density of information, compared to what you can get from text on a screen or even video.
In addition, it's hard to use any current VR headset for more than an hour or so because of eye strain.
In addition, it's hard to use any current VR headset for more than an hour or so because of eye strain.
I think the top flaws with those things (I authored a ton of VRML back in the day) were:
1) VR didn't actually exist yet.
2) Unreal Engine is beautiful, and didn't exist yet.
3) Bandwidth sucked (and still sucks a lot for many people).
I think you're completely wrong that "nobody wants this after they've tried it." I'm essentially describing Steam VR, and Oculus Home... except I also want hyperlinking between the experiences, and I want the App to download and install much more like how a Browser works than how Steam and Oculus Home works... Which would be aided a lot if we just used one damn engine (Unreal Engine) for everything, rather than having to install the full engine for every World.
Eye strain: I'm very hopeful that Magic Leap or other Light Field Displays will help. Also, okay, so, VR is amazing for an hour. =)
1) VR didn't actually exist yet.
2) Unreal Engine is beautiful, and didn't exist yet.
3) Bandwidth sucked (and still sucks a lot for many people).
I think you're completely wrong that "nobody wants this after they've tried it." I'm essentially describing Steam VR, and Oculus Home... except I also want hyperlinking between the experiences, and I want the App to download and install much more like how a Browser works than how Steam and Oculus Home works... Which would be aided a lot if we just used one damn engine (Unreal Engine) for everything, rather than having to install the full engine for every World.
Eye strain: I'm very hopeful that Magic Leap or other Light Field Displays will help. Also, okay, so, VR is amazing for an hour. =)
Sorry to say that MAgic Leap’s only relation to light fields is in their marketing and now defunct patents. Their actual product apppears to be a less impressive early Hololens.
Funny you basically described what I am currently building except it is being developed with WebVR. Reddit, multi users spaces, spaces browsing/creation/sharing etc you are spot on describing what I am doing.
I will release an MVP in July so I guess I should start ramping up my online presence to sell the idea !
I will release an MVP in July so I guess I should start ramping up my online presence to sell the idea !
I worry for you about a lot of things:
* WebVR brings along all of the baggage of the web browser.
* It's incredibly hard to get beautiful content - that's why Unity and Unreal are so popular, they made it as easy as possible
Best of luck.
And you should have a newsletter I can sign up for.
* WebVR brings along all of the baggage of the web browser.
* It's incredibly hard to get beautiful content - that's why Unity and Unreal are so popular, they made it as easy as possible
Best of luck.
And you should have a newsletter I can sign up for.
You are right about both points, but :
* The best way to make VR and 3D browsing a thing is to have URLs to 3D/VR spaces because urls can be easily shared and most devices have Browsers.
* It is hard to do something beautiful with WebVR but keeping things simple and allowing 3D models can go a long way. I think that currently running smoothly on a mid-end smartphone is more important than photorealism.
* Game engines are too elitist. Common people have to be able to create 3D spaces very easily, with no code, no 3D modeling knowledge. Then they have to be able to share (deploy) with a single click. The web is the absolute platform for this.
Thank you for your message, you are absolutely right about the newsletter !
* The best way to make VR and 3D browsing a thing is to have URLs to 3D/VR spaces because urls can be easily shared and most devices have Browsers.
* It is hard to do something beautiful with WebVR but keeping things simple and allowing 3D models can go a long way. I think that currently running smoothly on a mid-end smartphone is more important than photorealism.
* Game engines are too elitist. Common people have to be able to create 3D spaces very easily, with no code, no 3D modeling knowledge. Then they have to be able to share (deploy) with a single click. The web is the absolute platform for this.
Thank you for your message, you are absolutely right about the newsletter !
* I know that URLs are awesome... But URLs don't need to be HTTP. The Browser can launch this "VR Browser" thing I want. On desktop, or as you say on Android mobile it could do it with what are they called, Intents URLs?
* I think you're under-estimating how important Beautiful is. You know and I know that graphics and gameplay are completely orthogonal, but WWW beat out Gopher partly because WWW was more beautiful (HTML had better layout, and had Images.) And you and I are on completely different pages if you're talking about smartphones, unless you mean like Gear VR or maybe Daydream, or the new Oculus thing...
* Web browsers were too elitist. Lynx browser existed for some of them. But then people got bigger machines, faster internet connections. (Heck GLSL was too much for even state-of-the-art gaming machines, now IT runs in the Browser as WebGL!!!) I'd rather reach for the high end knowing that it becomes available.
* Authoring: No question, it sucks. That's why things like this are awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKO9fEjNiio Also we need "VR Wiki". And "VR Wordpress."
* I think you're under-estimating how important Beautiful is. You know and I know that graphics and gameplay are completely orthogonal, but WWW beat out Gopher partly because WWW was more beautiful (HTML had better layout, and had Images.) And you and I are on completely different pages if you're talking about smartphones, unless you mean like Gear VR or maybe Daydream, or the new Oculus thing...
* Web browsers were too elitist. Lynx browser existed for some of them. But then people got bigger machines, faster internet connections. (Heck GLSL was too much for even state-of-the-art gaming machines, now IT runs in the Browser as WebGL!!!) I'd rather reach for the high end knowing that it becomes available.
* Authoring: No question, it sucks. That's why things like this are awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKO9fEjNiio Also we need "VR Wiki". And "VR Wordpress."
Thank you, it is interesting to have feedback on those subjects ! Sorry it is going to be a bit long, but you raised interesting points that I don't always have the oportunity to discuss :
* Even if I build a insanely good native VR browser there will be (a lot of) people who won't have it on their devices. This is why at least from a business perspective, for the moment it is far better to have a link towards an experience people can use rather than a link towards a native/desktop app that if downloaded can open an experience.
* I think that in 2018 it is important to have a "responsive" VR experience. It should go from a basic non-VR 3D experience (smartphone) to a full fledged high-end immersive VR one with everything else in between (So yeah GearVR, Daydream and Oculus Go).
People with any device should be able to take part, to interact, to share. My take on graphics is not that it is unimportant but rather that it is not what is lacking in current 3D content. Plus with some polish WebVR can deliver a decent graphical experience. Don't get me wrong : Beautiful is important. It is photo-realism that is not.
* I meant too elitist to use for authoring but you talk about it in your next point, so I will answer to your point about technological evolution. Before having people to buy high end VR hardware and the gaming rig that goes with it, we have to give people good reasons to do so. Gamers have obvious incentives, but most other people currently don't.
First we have to give social content interesting to non gamers and it has to run on their current hardware or they won't really use it. Then by interacting regularly with people with headsets, people without VR headsets will gradually convert into VR users. Then as VR users, they will have incentives to get better hardware. Then with better average hardware there will be competition on software features (graphics, interaction, ecosystem etc)
We still have the (very hard) first step to pass first. Web browser did not start with WebGL: they figured out text first, then layout, then animations, then media etc...
* This video is sweet, this is the future. And agreed about both "VR Wiki" and "VR Wordpress"
* Even if I build a insanely good native VR browser there will be (a lot of) people who won't have it on their devices. This is why at least from a business perspective, for the moment it is far better to have a link towards an experience people can use rather than a link towards a native/desktop app that if downloaded can open an experience.
* I think that in 2018 it is important to have a "responsive" VR experience. It should go from a basic non-VR 3D experience (smartphone) to a full fledged high-end immersive VR one with everything else in between (So yeah GearVR, Daydream and Oculus Go).
People with any device should be able to take part, to interact, to share. My take on graphics is not that it is unimportant but rather that it is not what is lacking in current 3D content. Plus with some polish WebVR can deliver a decent graphical experience. Don't get me wrong : Beautiful is important. It is photo-realism that is not.
* I meant too elitist to use for authoring but you talk about it in your next point, so I will answer to your point about technological evolution. Before having people to buy high end VR hardware and the gaming rig that goes with it, we have to give people good reasons to do so. Gamers have obvious incentives, but most other people currently don't.
First we have to give social content interesting to non gamers and it has to run on their current hardware or they won't really use it. Then by interacting regularly with people with headsets, people without VR headsets will gradually convert into VR users. Then as VR users, they will have incentives to get better hardware. Then with better average hardware there will be competition on software features (graphics, interaction, ecosystem etc)
We still have the (very hard) first step to pass first. Web browser did not start with WebGL: they figured out text first, then layout, then animations, then media etc...
* This video is sweet, this is the future. And agreed about both "VR Wiki" and "VR Wordpress"
* John Carmack said that he used to buy the most insanely expensive machine he could for dev, because by the time he finished the game (a few years), it would be a reasonable spec machine for the average gamer. But he lamented that it was essentially no longer possible to throw enough money at it, because machines are just getting too good, too fast. At Walmart and Best Buy, there are $20 Altec phones that have better specs than the original iPhone. And if you make something insanely good in VR, people will show their friends, and people will WANT it. If it doesn't look insanely good, will it spread? I'm not saying "purposely exclude low-end." I'm saying design for the high-end first, and by the time you're done, it won't be nearly as high-end as you think.
* Sure, "responsive," yes. Want to know the best way to get that? Use an optimized-for-VR game engine. Like Unreal. "smartphone". Yes, sure, here ya go: https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-us/Platforms/GoogleVR/Daydr...
"People with any device should be able to take part, to interact, to share." Nope. Disagree. You're using hyperbole, or you're being nuts. You are not going to target iOS 4. Or Windows Phone. Feature Phones in India.
"My take on graphics is not that it is unimportant but rather that it is not what is lacking in current 3D content."
...you are literally making a "VR" thing. The only new adjective in what you are building is "VR," of which "graphics" plays a huge part. Without tracking devices, "graphics" is all that "VR" is.
"Plus with some polish WebVR can deliver a decent graphical experience."
I think you overestimate their chances. (Star Wars quote.)
"Beautiful is important. It is photo-realism that is not."
Kiiinda agreed... I think being able to scale all the way to photo-realism would be smart. Is it a Requirement? Dunno.
"it has to run on their current hardware or they won't really use it."
Eh. People do buy PSVR and Oculus and... /shrug
"Then by interacting regularly with people with headsets, people without VR headsets will gradually convert into VR users."
I don't really see that working, honestly. Me having a landline doesn't make me want a smartphone more. Seeing what a smartphone does makes me want a smartphone.
"Web browser did not start with WebGL: they figured out text first, "
That's not really true. Web browser started with the ability to have images. Almost no one had the bandwidth needed for a good experience. Many people had machines that couldn't really run a web browser.
"VR Wiki" / "VR Wordpress"
People keep trying to build an integrated thing that is all the things...
Just like the first web browsers could author HTML, too. And be Usenet clients. And email clients.
Rmmmmm...
"HTTP" "HTML" "CSS" "JS" "LAMP"
Make the building blocks. Let people build VR Wiki / VR Wordpress on top of those tools.
* Sure, "responsive," yes. Want to know the best way to get that? Use an optimized-for-VR game engine. Like Unreal. "smartphone". Yes, sure, here ya go: https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-us/Platforms/GoogleVR/Daydr...
"People with any device should be able to take part, to interact, to share." Nope. Disagree. You're using hyperbole, or you're being nuts. You are not going to target iOS 4. Or Windows Phone. Feature Phones in India.
"My take on graphics is not that it is unimportant but rather that it is not what is lacking in current 3D content."
...you are literally making a "VR" thing. The only new adjective in what you are building is "VR," of which "graphics" plays a huge part. Without tracking devices, "graphics" is all that "VR" is.
"Plus with some polish WebVR can deliver a decent graphical experience."
I think you overestimate their chances. (Star Wars quote.)
"Beautiful is important. It is photo-realism that is not."
Kiiinda agreed... I think being able to scale all the way to photo-realism would be smart. Is it a Requirement? Dunno.
"it has to run on their current hardware or they won't really use it."
Eh. People do buy PSVR and Oculus and... /shrug
"Then by interacting regularly with people with headsets, people without VR headsets will gradually convert into VR users."
I don't really see that working, honestly. Me having a landline doesn't make me want a smartphone more. Seeing what a smartphone does makes me want a smartphone.
"Web browser did not start with WebGL: they figured out text first, "
That's not really true. Web browser started with the ability to have images. Almost no one had the bandwidth needed for a good experience. Many people had machines that couldn't really run a web browser.
"VR Wiki" / "VR Wordpress"
People keep trying to build an integrated thing that is all the things...
Just like the first web browsers could author HTML, too. And be Usenet clients. And email clients.
Rmmmmm...
"HTTP" "HTML" "CSS" "JS" "LAMP"
Make the building blocks. Let people build VR Wiki / VR Wordpress on top of those tools.
Check out Supermedium, part of the last YC batch. We're doing exactly that. A full VR browser that runs on Web technology, but trying to seem indistinguishable from native VR. Worlds load in seconds, people publish via Web, access via links that look like anything, and "VR pages" can do anything. Scrapping a lot of the old Web baggage and redefining it for VR. http://store.steampowered.com/app/803010/Supermedium/
Sorry to ask, but is it open source?
Nope, perhaps in the future. But we open source all of the reusable components and backport loads of fixes back to the A-Frame, which is open source, which we spend a considerable amount of time maintaining.
VRML was once a thing...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML
Sounds like you want VRChat.
Maybe. Does it let me host my own worlds, like running my own web-server, or am I locked in to them hosting?
Also, is their file format open source, and is the client open source?
Also, is their file format open source, and is the client open source?
Sorry for late reply... their authoring tools use Unity, not sure about hosting. It's not open source, but it is free (not sure how they plan on making money).
Basically you can create a "world" or a character model and use it or publish it freely, and in-game you can visit other people's worlds.
Basically you can create a "world" or a character model and use it or publish it freely, and in-game you can visit other people's worlds.
Have you tried https://highfidelity.com/ ?
Ugh, no.
It has "Marketplace" all over it.
That's fine to add to what I'm talking about, I guess... I mean, Unreal Engine already does have a Marketplace, right?
But the core idea needs to be much more like the web. Open source client, standards for content, standards for hyperlinking, open source server.
It has "Marketplace" all over it.
That's fine to add to what I'm talking about, I guess... I mean, Unreal Engine already does have a Marketplace, right?
But the core idea needs to be much more like the web. Open source client, standards for content, standards for hyperlinking, open source server.
> Open source client, standards for content, standards for hyperlinking, open source server
High Fidelity has all that:
https://github.com/highfidelity
The web page emphasizes Marketplace because they recently started trying to get that going too (with a blockchain-based virtual currency which they've been handing out to anyone interested).
High Fidelity has all that:
https://github.com/highfidelity
The web page emphasizes Marketplace because they recently started trying to get that going too (with a blockchain-based virtual currency which they've been handing out to anyone interested).
K, I'll have to look more, later. Thanks!
Finally, the dream of VRML
I know, right?
Except browsers sucked at the time, JS really, really sucked at the time. WebGL didn't exist. WebVR didn't exist at the time. VR Controllers didn't exist at the time. Bandwidth sucked. Most people didn't have GPUs, and couldn't render many triangles...
Except browsers sucked at the time, JS really, really sucked at the time. WebGL didn't exist. WebVR didn't exist at the time. VR Controllers didn't exist at the time. Bandwidth sucked. Most people didn't have GPUs, and couldn't render many triangles...
Have you tried Windows Mixed Reality? The MR home is beautiful!
If you're interested in using a browser like this today, you can also checkout my free Viewport VR browser for Android and iOS:
https://www.viewport.org/ (don't mind the video - it's old at this point)
I just released an update to the Android version last week to make the graphics rendering about as performant as 2D Chrome on Android, and I'm currently working on the same update for the iOS version. There are still features missing (the big one being support for video), but I'm constantly iterating on it and appreciate feedback.
https://www.viewport.org/ (don't mind the video - it's old at this point)
I just released an update to the Android version last week to make the graphics rendering about as performant as 2D Chrome on Android, and I'm currently working on the same update for the iOS version. There are still features missing (the big one being support for video), but I'm constantly iterating on it and appreciate feedback.
I use the Google daydream headset mostly for YouTube, I would kill for a browser so I can plug my keyboard in and browse the internet on a gigantic screen.
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In fact, in its current form I don't really see the appeal. I can already get a "flat" web browsing experience like that without needing to put a headset on. Might be useful for a situation where I want to quickly pull up a web page without taking off my headset; but on desktop VR I can already just use regular Chrome or Firefox for that, no need for a specially-built browser.
I guess this is more about experimenting with the new UI paradigms VR/AR enable? Once they start adding better support for 3D content on the web I can start to see this making more sense.
> Mixed reality is the wild west. How do you type? How do you express emotion? How do you view the billions of existing 2D web pages as well as new 3D content? How do you communicate? Who maps the world and who controls what you see? Can we build on our work with voice recognition and connected devices to create a better browsing experience?
There are indeed a lot of interesting questions here. I think most of these problems are going to end up being handled by the VR/AR windowing system (whatever that might be) though, not by individual apps. I don't need my web browser to implement its own keyboard.