Ask HN: Is now a good time to buy a new MacBook or should I wait?
So it's time I bought myself a new machine. As a dev I feel gravitated towards the MBP line-up.
However, with all the stories I've been hearing about the 2016/2017 models having weird keyboard issues and a rather large (too large) trackpad, along with the potential of a new model being released at some point this year apparently (32GB anyone?).. I'm not sure if I should just go for it or if waiting a while is a good idea.
What do you think? Any insider knowledge you could share that would help?
44 comments
Just wait. The 16/17 models are awful. See the post on the front page of HN right now, about the keyboard repair program. Mine has been in THREE TIMES for sound and keyboard issues. Worst Apple buy ever. YMMV.
I really wonder if the 2018 will be any better, or if they will simply just push for more of the same.
I saw the post about the repair plan, it's kind of ridiculous, yet sadly unsurprising..
Perhaps going for one of the developer Dells with Ubuntu is the safest future bet..
Perhaps going for one of the developer Dells with Ubuntu is the safest future bet..
As a longtime MBP user who just bought a Dell XPS 15, it’s the little things I miss. File previews in finder. The seamless trackpad experience without having to write a conf file to modify an open source driver. I don’t exactly miss the UI, but I do miss the consistency of it. After scaling for the 4k hidpi display, I’ve had to recalibrate a lot of microscopically tiny UI elements and a few giant ones.
The developer edition laptops aren’t sold in a 15 inch version, which is why I opted to tolerate the Windows factory install. However like other XPS 15 owners, I’ve had a lot of trouble trying to resolve conflicts between Ubuntu and the NVIDIA gpu, which doesn’t seem to be compatible with Canonical’s open source “nouveau” drivers which I think might be enabled by default on 18.04. If you don’t mind the 13 inch display, the developer model might be worth considering in light of the trouble I’ve had trying to seamlessly dual-boot.
The developer edition laptops aren’t sold in a 15 inch version, which is why I opted to tolerate the Windows factory install. However like other XPS 15 owners, I’ve had a lot of trouble trying to resolve conflicts between Ubuntu and the NVIDIA gpu, which doesn’t seem to be compatible with Canonical’s open source “nouveau” drivers which I think might be enabled by default on 18.04. If you don’t mind the 13 inch display, the developer model might be worth considering in light of the trouble I’ve had trying to seamlessly dual-boot.
The trick with Optimus seems to be to use the Intel iGPU for your desktop and day to day work and bumblebee when you really need the NVidia GPU. Trying to use the discrete GPU for the desktop is just an exercise in frustration (and a waste of battery life).
I had such a poor experience with the 2016 MBP that I switched to a Dell XPS 9560 running Windows 10 & WSL. The XPS units are quite nice.
Send it in to get it fixed? How does that work? Do you get another laptop while you're waiting?
I'm used to Dell, and they replace hardware the next business day on location, even when I'm out traveling.
I'm used to Dell, and they replace hardware the next business day on location, even when I'm out traveling.
The laptops are overdue for a refresh - both in terms of specs and in terms of Apple's usual update cycle. Chances are there will be something a bit better available if you can hold out for a few months.
When in doubt: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac
When in doubt: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac
Oh wow, reading that link was really useful. Thank you.
They sound absolutely terrible at the moment to be honest!
What people tend to not realize is that Apple has flagship models (iMac, MacBook, MacBook Pro) and secondary models (MacBook Air, Mac mini, Mac Pro).
The flagship models used to be upgraded as technology came available, but are now typically upgraded yearly. There's a suspicion that Apple held back the hardware refresh from WWDC partially because they weren't ready w.r.t. the keyboard repair program announced today.
MacBook Air is a zombie. I believe they want to kill it, but the retina MacBook is too expensive to replace it, and it sells extremely well (at high margins).
The Mac mini is a zombie, or perhaps a bit of a square peg. It was meant as the desktop switcher computer, where you plug in your old PC K/V/M and go. Then it kinda sorta rebranded to be upgradable as a server circa 2012 (with products like xServe discontinued), before actually losing those higher end upgrade options in 2013. I think most people don't expect it to be usable as a pro desktop, but Apple has a huge gap there since their desktop focus is on the All-in-One iMac. So like the MacBook Air, the focus is on low cost and good margins, not technology.
The Mac Pro they simply didn't predict the market well enough on. The GPU-heavy design they were going for and external peripherals might actually fly if it was coming out today, but general purpose computing didn't embrace using multithreading or OpenCL for getting better performance. So, the ability to use the power of the machine was a bit hit-or-miss depending on the application you were using. Worse, the thermal profile both had a max amount of power and required an even distribution of heat. GPU processing power and power consumption has scaled up due to the highly parallel nature, while Intel's power consumption has stayed relatively the same. The design didn't allow for them to swap out components for the newer ones that hit the market after release.
iMac Pro is relatively new and likely a specialty product, although I imagine Apple to take it seriously. So probably not a predictable once-per-year release schedule, but I don't see a reason for that design to get silently shelved and the line to stagnate.
The flagship models used to be upgraded as technology came available, but are now typically upgraded yearly. There's a suspicion that Apple held back the hardware refresh from WWDC partially because they weren't ready w.r.t. the keyboard repair program announced today.
MacBook Air is a zombie. I believe they want to kill it, but the retina MacBook is too expensive to replace it, and it sells extremely well (at high margins).
The Mac mini is a zombie, or perhaps a bit of a square peg. It was meant as the desktop switcher computer, where you plug in your old PC K/V/M and go. Then it kinda sorta rebranded to be upgradable as a server circa 2012 (with products like xServe discontinued), before actually losing those higher end upgrade options in 2013. I think most people don't expect it to be usable as a pro desktop, but Apple has a huge gap there since their desktop focus is on the All-in-One iMac. So like the MacBook Air, the focus is on low cost and good margins, not technology.
The Mac Pro they simply didn't predict the market well enough on. The GPU-heavy design they were going for and external peripherals might actually fly if it was coming out today, but general purpose computing didn't embrace using multithreading or OpenCL for getting better performance. So, the ability to use the power of the machine was a bit hit-or-miss depending on the application you were using. Worse, the thermal profile both had a max amount of power and required an even distribution of heat. GPU processing power and power consumption has scaled up due to the highly parallel nature, while Intel's power consumption has stayed relatively the same. The design didn't allow for them to swap out components for the newer ones that hit the market after release.
iMac Pro is relatively new and likely a specialty product, although I imagine Apple to take it seriously. So probably not a predictable once-per-year release schedule, but I don't see a reason for that design to get silently shelved and the line to stagnate.
Also Samsung is starting to manufacture 8TB Ssds, so a refresh con the high end side is due soon for everybody, not just Apple
It’s fine, HN is really good at hyping up how bad something is.
I bought a 15” with touch bar and discrete GPU, as did another guy in my office, and we’ve both had no issues after nearly 8 months .. it’s a very nice machine and very performant.
My only complaint is the battery life is slightly less than the one I had before, however it didn’t have a discrete chip so it’s not a fair comparison.
The new hinge design is fantastic and it’s very lightweight. I can effortlessly wave it around with one hand and not get tired.
I bought a 15” with touch bar and discrete GPU, as did another guy in my office, and we’ve both had no issues after nearly 8 months .. it’s a very nice machine and very performant.
My only complaint is the battery life is slightly less than the one I had before, however it didn’t have a discrete chip so it’s not a fair comparison.
The new hinge design is fantastic and it’s very lightweight. I can effortlessly wave it around with one hand and not get tired.
"I can effortlessly wave it around with one hand and not get tired"
I agree that's a nice engineering achievement and a nice to have feature but how important can this be when evaluating a laptop?
It means I can practically move the laptop to and from meetings while holding a coffee cup in the other hand, for example.
The current designs are close to a year old now and apple updates infrequently and generally does not cut the price. So you are paying a premium for buying a one year old design. Imho the best moment to buy is early in the product cycle. You maximise the period the design is fresh and reasonably current. I bought my 15" mbp last October when it was just out.
The flipside is of course that recent models are rather disappointing in many ways. It's only marginally faster than the 2012 model it replaced, contains the same amount of memory and cpu cores. And there is the keyboard, which is a severe downgrade and has many flaws and the well documented reliability issues. That 2012 model was the best piece of hw I ever owned. So, you can wait but don't expect any miracles.
The flipside is of course that recent models are rather disappointing in many ways. It's only marginally faster than the 2012 model it replaced, contains the same amount of memory and cpu cores. And there is the keyboard, which is a severe downgrade and has many flaws and the well documented reliability issues. That 2012 model was the best piece of hw I ever owned. So, you can wait but don't expect any miracles.
I have a 2014 MBP and love it as much as you seem to love your 2012! When it comes time to replace it, I’ll probably look for a new or refurbished 2015 (the last model before the touch bar design) unless Apple does something significant to the current design to make it more appealing to power users.
If you're not tied to MacBooks, it is a good time. You have a nice choice of laptops with the new Intel CPUs, or Intel + AMD graphics, from 13" to 15", finely made.
If you want a MacBook, for love of God, wait! The current generation is seriously outdated in terms of hardware and disturbingly poorly made. I work with 10 colleagues every day who mostly use the current generation MacBooks, and couple of older ones. The newer are not bought at the same time, and we all had/have keyboard issues, external monitor issues, updating issues (mine was most severe, had to wipe the drive!), poor cooling... Quite disappointing.
The previous generation ones work like a charm.
If you want a MacBook, for love of God, wait! The current generation is seriously outdated in terms of hardware and disturbingly poorly made. I work with 10 colleagues every day who mostly use the current generation MacBooks, and couple of older ones. The newer are not bought at the same time, and we all had/have keyboard issues, external monitor issues, updating issues (mine was most severe, had to wipe the drive!), poor cooling... Quite disappointing.
The previous generation ones work like a charm.
I know it sounds weird but I started using a Pixelbook for development. With the Crostini project you can now run Linux in a container. It is improving with each release. Mark my words, this will be a developer's workstation of choice in coming months.
If you need OpenGL support -- buy it now.[0]
> That's what I was thinking to do, when Apple dropped a bombshell.
> https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
> OpenGL and OpenGL ES will be unavailable in macOS and iOS in the future OS versions. I was somewhat expecting it when Apple announced Metal. At the same time, I was hoping Apple to maintain relatively higher-level and standard graphics APIs. The expectation was shattered into pieces by this announcement.
If no -- then wait.
[0] http://ysflight.in.coocan.jp/main/e2018.html
> That's what I was thinking to do, when Apple dropped a bombshell.
> https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
> OpenGL and OpenGL ES will be unavailable in macOS and iOS in the future OS versions. I was somewhat expecting it when Apple announced Metal. At the same time, I was hoping Apple to maintain relatively higher-level and standard graphics APIs. The expectation was shattered into pieces by this announcement.
If no -- then wait.
[0] http://ysflight.in.coocan.jp/main/e2018.html
Apple won't remove OGL support for years, but in the meantime now you know they aren't going to put engineering time in newer OGL features or specs.
Microsoft OGL on Windows Classic is a shim to whatever the graphics card maker provides. Effectively there are no OS that ship legitimate and non-deprecated OGL support today.
Android AFAIK is the only platform that ships/mandates OGL ES. There are shims to support OGL ES based on the platform 3D support, such as one GitHub project Microsoft published that uses DirectX or one that I believe ships as part of Steam on Mac platforms.
AFAIK there is no platform that ships and mandates Vulkan. Unfortunately Android does not require it on new devices yet.
This is really more like Apple deprecating their OpenSSL libraries - they are telling people that Apple isn't going to maintain it going forward, so you should stop using their copy and bundle your own.
Microsoft OGL on Windows Classic is a shim to whatever the graphics card maker provides. Effectively there are no OS that ship legitimate and non-deprecated OGL support today.
Android AFAIK is the only platform that ships/mandates OGL ES. There are shims to support OGL ES based on the platform 3D support, such as one GitHub project Microsoft published that uses DirectX or one that I believe ships as part of Steam on Mac platforms.
AFAIK there is no platform that ships and mandates Vulkan. Unfortunately Android does not require it on new devices yet.
This is really more like Apple deprecating their OpenSSL libraries - they are telling people that Apple isn't going to maintain it going forward, so you should stop using their copy and bundle your own.
But the current version is 10.14, and it'll be around at least until 10.15. So OP is probably good to wait at least until next year to see if its lineup is better.
Now is a good time to get a new 2015 model, if you can live with the specs, considering it's still available but might not be much longer. It will buy you time until Apple get their act together again.
I just did this, best Mac laptop IMO.
I would suggest waiting due to probable refresh timing, though I don’t think 16/17 are bad machines by any stretch (just a bit over-priced for what Apple delivered).
My biggest complaint is the inability to upgrade storage. 18 months in, I’m facing the need to upgrade due to an uptick in container and VM based projects that necessitate a large chunk of scratch space. I recently taught a 300-level networks class and had a couple students who had also underestimated their storage needs.
I don’t love the keyboard, but my accuracy is improved on it. I also haven’t encountered any colleagues, students, or friends who have encountered any key issues.
The trackpad is large, but it works like a dream most of the time. I only experience an occasional wrist detection fail, and this usually occurs when I’m working in bed with awkward hand positioning.
I haven’t seen any issues with 16GB, even when running numerous containers and virtual machines. I’d love the option for more/upgradeable RAM, but I’m satisfied with this config for now.
Battery life is decent in practice. It’s not all day, but it’ll get me through a flight without any trouble so far. The flexibility of USB-C PD is awesome. I carry a tiny 60W Dart-C adapter when I’m on the go and I’ve even used a 30W adapter in a pinch. Either one will keep my 15in 2016 MBP running all day.
My biggest complaint is the inability to upgrade storage. 18 months in, I’m facing the need to upgrade due to an uptick in container and VM based projects that necessitate a large chunk of scratch space. I recently taught a 300-level networks class and had a couple students who had also underestimated their storage needs.
I don’t love the keyboard, but my accuracy is improved on it. I also haven’t encountered any colleagues, students, or friends who have encountered any key issues.
The trackpad is large, but it works like a dream most of the time. I only experience an occasional wrist detection fail, and this usually occurs when I’m working in bed with awkward hand positioning.
I haven’t seen any issues with 16GB, even when running numerous containers and virtual machines. I’d love the option for more/upgradeable RAM, but I’m satisfied with this config for now.
Battery life is decent in practice. It’s not all day, but it’ll get me through a flight without any trouble so far. The flexibility of USB-C PD is awesome. I carry a tiny 60W Dart-C adapter when I’m on the go and I’ve even used a 30W adapter in a pinch. Either one will keep my 15in 2016 MBP running all day.
I personally really like the new keyboards. When I did have a problem with it - I had read that very small things get stuck behind the keys, so I repeatedly pressed extremely quickly and hard on the key several times, and it fixed the problem right there and then. Have done that several times since to fix the stuck problem and has worked 100% of the time.
Also, I was looking for the 16gh RAM, 500GB HDD 15" Pro. Something like $3100 from Apple. I went to Best Buy and they were running a $200 off promotion on them. On top of that, I found the exact model I was looking for as an open model, someone having returned it the previous day. Didn't have a single scratch - was discounted to $2150. They respected the promotion and I got a (like) new MBP Pro for $1950.
I chalk this up to the fact that so many other people seem to really dislike these machines.
Also, I was looking for the 16gh RAM, 500GB HDD 15" Pro. Something like $3100 from Apple. I went to Best Buy and they were running a $200 off promotion on them. On top of that, I found the exact model I was looking for as an open model, someone having returned it the previous day. Didn't have a single scratch - was discounted to $2150. They respected the promotion and I got a (like) new MBP Pro for $1950.
I chalk this up to the fact that so many other people seem to really dislike these machines.
One thing I ponder, is how my proficiency in doing things to code dropped, when I moved to eye candy. Moving back to a focus on text editors and screens of code rather than skuomorphisms and virtual desk movement animations cost me some whine time, but once back in a simpler tiled wm world I feel much more productive.
You may actually not want those pixels. Or that graphics chip.
You may actually not want those pixels. Or that graphics chip.
Gosh, I thought I was the only one!
I've only recently noticed this because of setting up my latest Linux laptop. (I use a MBP for work because every tech company just gives you one now without an option for another OS.) I wanted a modern Linux laptop personally for hobby work so I bought a PC one and installed Antergos Linux on it. Antergos comes with Gnome by default (unless you select something else on install). Modern Gnome (3.28 in my case) was made to be pretty similar to macOS. Permanent top bar with status icons on the right, dash-to-dock which basically behaves like macOS's dock, and so on. Lots of eye candy animation as you switch between apps / desktop spaces, etc.
I'm fairly happy with it, but then I had to open up my very old laptop with CentOS 7 (with KDE Plasma for UI) installed on it to clear it out and finally get rid of it; and found myself instantly feeling good and productive with that old school KDE style UI (which was made to be similar to old school Windows. Not even Win10, but like the WinXP/Vista time with start menu and taskbar with rectangular tabs at the bottom). I'm actually thinking about installing KDE on this new laptop and switching over now; but I just spent a lot of time configuring everything in Gnome to my liking and feel like I'd keep this for a while first.
I've only recently noticed this because of setting up my latest Linux laptop. (I use a MBP for work because every tech company just gives you one now without an option for another OS.) I wanted a modern Linux laptop personally for hobby work so I bought a PC one and installed Antergos Linux on it. Antergos comes with Gnome by default (unless you select something else on install). Modern Gnome (3.28 in my case) was made to be pretty similar to macOS. Permanent top bar with status icons on the right, dash-to-dock which basically behaves like macOS's dock, and so on. Lots of eye candy animation as you switch between apps / desktop spaces, etc.
I'm fairly happy with it, but then I had to open up my very old laptop with CentOS 7 (with KDE Plasma for UI) installed on it to clear it out and finally get rid of it; and found myself instantly feeling good and productive with that old school KDE style UI (which was made to be similar to old school Windows. Not even Win10, but like the WinXP/Vista time with start menu and taskbar with rectangular tabs at the bottom). I'm actually thinking about installing KDE on this new laptop and switching over now; but I just spent a lot of time configuring everything in Gnome to my liking and feel like I'd keep this for a while first.
The gun coder at work went to a lenovo Carbon X1 running the release of Linux which drives it best and he's happy and productive and has no MBP envy. After touchbar, I am very tempted to make the same move when renewal time comes round.
I want to make the switch too but the apps are simply not of the same quality. For example I use Bear on mac for notes and screenshots, and nothing nothing on Linux could paste a screen shot from clip board into a notes taking program.
There are many small things like this.... Otherwise I would love to use a carbon with Linux.
There are many small things like this.... Otherwise I would love to use a carbon with Linux.
Apple hardware does not come cheap, although the retina screens are great, so, do you reeeeaaally need a Mac ( iOS development is the only reason i can imagine ) ?!
For everything else, Linux should be more than fine, and the dell xps is a great solid line of machines...
I'm starting to agree with you on this actually. I'll write a post on this if I end up going this route.
please, share it. I would read it eagerly. :)
If you're not sure, I wouldn't do it. I don't feel like my work machine is any faster than my personal 2015 model, and I like typing on the older one better.
The historical update cycle says "no", as well: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro
The historical update cycle says "no", as well: https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro
Can you still buy the 2015 models?
Yes you can buy them directly from Apple. https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch
Bottom of that page, just had to replace my 2013 and decided I didn’t want to deal with the new MBP and it’s silly touchbar or failing keys, or oversized trackpad. Ordered it with max memory, and happily transferred everything from old to old.
Bottom of that page, just had to replace my 2013 and decided I didn’t want to deal with the new MBP and it’s silly touchbar or failing keys, or oversized trackpad. Ordered it with max memory, and happily transferred everything from old to old.
I don't see any 13s, clearly this only applies to the 15s?
Yes, some resellers sell brand-new 2015s. I got mine from B&H.
Recently I had a similar question. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17262538
I am waiting it out.
I am waiting it out.
Get a 2015 model while you still can...
Agreed. Mine is just amazing. No complaints at all and still goes like a rocket (I went for the max spec MBP)