British divers make contact with missing Thai football team(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
British divers make contact with missing Thai football team
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/02/twelve-boys-missing-in-flooded-thai-cave-found-after-nine-days
157 comments
As an experienced cave diver, I agree with Mr Whitehouse that bringing them out as "packages" should be considered an option. It would be easier than allowing them to swim by themselves in murky waters with no vision. The diving training spoken of might be getting the boys to be used to being towed under water while being packaged up, rather than about teaching them about buoyancy control like adult divers.
You can't be serious. Taking 13 people, with an absolute maximum of Open Water level training (if that), back out through hundreds (or thousands?) of meters of low or zero visibility diving, including (apparently) tight restrictions, without risking the lives of all concerned? Aint gonna happen - unless the water level drops to the point where they can just float back out.
What I don't understand is that surely there must be a wide enough passage for them to have got in in the first place. It may be flooded but if one can walk into them vertically, surely they should be fairly accessible to a diver horizontally. Can't they just follow / be attached to a string or something like that?
I don't know that cave at all, but from various descriptions, it sounds like they may have had to crawl through several restrictions to get where they are. So it's not a matter of walking through vertically to get in, then just being gently pulled back out the same way It's a matter of squeezing through on your belly to get in - then to get out, reversing that, in unfamiliar bulky diving gear, completely underwater (literally no air anywhere), in pitch blackness, and zero visibility (as in, you'd not see an inch beyond your mask, even with a powerful torch). It's not easy even for experienced cave divers. I once went through a hole, then couldn't get back out! I tried for 10 minutes. At one point I even considered removing my tanks and pushing them out first. It eventually happened, but it gave me a scare - and that was in crystal clear water, in a site I'd dived before! Its just not as simple as people seem to assume. But again, I don't know the cave in question, I'm just going from what I've read.
Current and silt, I imagine
Think about thin vertical passages.
You can talk trough them easily but diving would be very difficult.
I know nothing about that cave, but passages between caves can be connected by tight restrictions. They might have crawled they way up. And now that restriction is flooded.
I know nothing about that cave, but passages between caves can be connected by tight restrictions. They might have crawled they way up. And now that restriction is flooded.
Add a bunch of regulator hoses, fins, air supply etc to someone not used to having them attached and the gap needs to be huge to not snare a hose and rip a full face mask off.
Even a semi experienced diver is far less aware of all their apparatus than a human who has been crawling around things since birth
Even a semi experienced diver is far less aware of all their apparatus than a human who has been crawling around things since birth
It's not logically following to me that just because it's easy to walk through a place it must necessarily be easy to dive through it. Diving is always significantly harder (you're wearing bulkier equipment for starters). It costs more energy to swim through water than it does to walk through air, the water has currents which you have to fight against, and the waters are murky so you have to go slow and can easily get disoriented.
You have those small engines/jets/scooters for divers, so exhaustion from swimming should not be a problem, right? They also can place long glowing ropes in murky water; it's been done all the time in caves (or bind them to scuba divers, one in front, one in the back of a group). Once those boys get proper proteins/water and wait for a day or two to recover, they should be able to work it out, unless rain picks up - they are old enough to be considered adults in some Asian cultures, perfect age for an adventure of lifetime. But then even their current position is under danger as it could be flooded further or if a large flash flood occurs, then all bets are off.
I'm no expert but I don't believe those diving jets are going to help in such an environment because A) takes up space of which they most likely don't have and B) it kicks up a lot of silt and dirt, making visibility conditions terrible. This can make or break such a rescue attempt and be really dangerous even for a seasoned cave diver.
This doesn't seem so bulky:
http://www.businessinsider.com/handheld-jet-thruster-propels...
And DIY versions abound: https://hackaday.com/2017/07/02/the-almost-working-diy-under...
And DIY versions abound: https://hackaday.com/2017/07/02/the-almost-working-diy-under...
Note that the article states:
> Narongsak explained that the divers had fixed rope lines along the passageway and distributed oxygen tanks along their route, allowing them to advance through the exceptionally narrow passageway unencumbered by bulky equipment.
The (extremely skilled) divers aren't wearing tanks due to how narrow some parts of the passage are. Using a thruster in a cramped environment is not a silver bullet.
> Narongsak explained that the divers had fixed rope lines along the passageway and distributed oxygen tanks along their route, allowing them to advance through the exceptionally narrow passageway unencumbered by bulky equipment.
The (extremely skilled) divers aren't wearing tanks due to how narrow some parts of the passage are. Using a thruster in a cramped environment is not a silver bullet.
Could it be that the route divers explored != the route the group has taken? So they might have descended using much more difficult route than the one the group took?
Unlikely. I am a Thai so I have been reading a lot of info since the beginning, and most people initially suggest that they shouldn't be in too deep since that Monk junction section is very narrow, steep, and hard to pass, even on foot.
It comes out later that the group frequent this cave many time before.
It comes out later that the group frequent this cave many time before.
It's a 2.5 km (a bit less than 2 miles) underwater swim. Right now they've been without food for 10 days and are barely able to stand. At the moment they wouldn't be able to walk the distance, much less spend many hours (it was about four hours for the experienced divers, so more for the boys) swimming underwater in unpredictable currents with no visibility due to silt, so if they get confused and let go of the string for a moment in those hours then they die.
As one of the rescuers said, "When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it." - and that's a pro diver, imagine how would it be for a boy who didn't even know how to swim and thus doesn't have the relevant muscles trained. It's also narrow enough so that only one person can fit through, so you can't have the divers guide them by hand, only accompany them behind them.
As one of the rescuers said, "When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it." - and that's a pro diver, imagine how would it be for a boy who didn't even know how to swim and thus doesn't have the relevant muscles trained. It's also narrow enough so that only one person can fit through, so you can't have the divers guide them by hand, only accompany them behind them.
”only accompany them behind them”
I think they would have them tied to a rope between divers, so that one of them can pull (gently, in narrow areas) and the other can guide the package to prevent it from scratching the rocks.
I think they would have them tied to a rope between divers, so that one of them can pull (gently, in narrow areas) and the other can guide the package to prevent it from scratching the rocks.
Fortunately the current is in the direction that they need to go to get out.
Not really - from the plan (https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2018/jul/03...) it seems that it's about 50/50; first they need to go ~700m against the current and only then ~800m with the current.
My wife and I were doing a dive under very controlled circumstances. My wife tried to swim through a circular opening wider than your outspread arms. She couldn't. Fighting panic (rule 2: dont panic!) She kept trying, growing ever more aware of being both underwater and underground.
Then our dive master reached out and pushed her down a foot, and suddenly her tank could clear the top. From her perspective she kept swimming lower, but that was counteracted by buoyancy and she couldn't tell, with every failed attempt reducing her mental capacity to figure it out.
Fight or flight is not the reflex we need in diving, but it is the reflex we have.
Then our dive master reached out and pushed her down a foot, and suddenly her tank could clear the top. From her perspective she kept swimming lower, but that was counteracted by buoyancy and she couldn't tell, with every failed attempt reducing her mental capacity to figure it out.
Fight or flight is not the reflex we need in diving, but it is the reflex we have.
Can't they run an oxygen hose to the place? Or perhaps bring a bunch of oxygen tanks, which could be used until they figure it out?
They are (or were) planning for the possibility of the group having to stay down there for months to allow the rainy season to pass, while being re-supplied by divers.
Use indentation only for code, not blockquote
> They were diving upstream in the system so they were having to swim against the current, or pull themselves along the walls. Some of the cave is fairly constricted and other points aren’t. I gather the actual diving section was about 1.5km, about half of which was completely flooded and about half of which was open. They estimated that a round trip is 3 hours.
> They were diving upstream in the system so they were having to swim against the current, or pull themselves along the walls. Some of the cave is fairly constricted and other points aren’t. I gather the actual diving section was about 1.5km, about half of which was completely flooded and about half of which was open. They estimated that a round trip is 3 hours.
How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the time they can get out?
Also, one detail that CNN got that I didn't see in this article: it seems the cave is one kilometer underground! [1]
EDIT 1: The CNN article partially answers my first question: "Rescuers will also pump air into the cave to improve conditions."
EDIT 2: Another important bit here [2]: "It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/in...
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-i...
Also, one detail that CNN got that I didn't see in this article: it seems the cave is one kilometer underground! [1]
EDIT 1: The CNN article partially answers my first question: "Rescuers will also pump air into the cave to improve conditions."
EDIT 2: Another important bit here [2]: "It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/in...
[2] https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-i...
There's usually plenty of air underground in a cave. They are actively being weathered / formed by little streams, which drag down air with them, forming a natural circulating draft. So even though the human-sized exit is flooded, there are likely to be multiple small inlets + cracks in the rock. The situation is very different in an (artificial) mine, which often have a single entrance/exit and no flowing water, so the air is totally stationary and quickly becomes stale.
Airbells, which are small air pockets in an otherwise flooded section are relatively unusual, and from the video footage it looked like the football team had climbed up into a larger Fossil gallery overlying the current (active) flooded section. Hopefully this means they will also be well protected from any future more extreme flooding.
These little stream inlets form a source of drinking water. Even when the main cave river is a turbid mess, there's normally plenty of clean little streams coming in - some of which will be fed by percolation water (seeping through rock) and therefore effectively 'mineral' water.
Often when journalists describe caves in the press, 'one kilometer underground' would be better described as 'one kilometer into' the cave. Certainly the cave doesn't look very deep, most river caves form fairly horizontally.
For digging into or exploring from above, what matters much more is how thick the rock is above them (or above a chamber that they can reach), and what it's made out of.
Locating them on the surface (i.e. figuring out where to start digging) will also be a challenge - most caves are not surveyed with a high degree of accuracy, and doing so through a flooded, flowing, low-visibility section is extremely difficult. (One of the rescue divers, John Volanthen, has done some pretty amazing stuff with a water-proof data-logging accelerometer + flux compass in this area - the "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper".) They will probably dive a radio beacon into the cave + then use that to locate the party, combined with a (dry) survey within the cave to figure out the extent of the available space to the survivors.
Radio comms should be setup quite soon - one system which may be of general interest to the Hackernews community is the cave-link: http://www.cavelink.com/cl3x_neu/index.php/en/ It has a lot of automation + resending / checksumming of messages to enable transmission over the very low bandwidth and noisy VLF channel through hundreds of metres of rock.
Airbells, which are small air pockets in an otherwise flooded section are relatively unusual, and from the video footage it looked like the football team had climbed up into a larger Fossil gallery overlying the current (active) flooded section. Hopefully this means they will also be well protected from any future more extreme flooding.
These little stream inlets form a source of drinking water. Even when the main cave river is a turbid mess, there's normally plenty of clean little streams coming in - some of which will be fed by percolation water (seeping through rock) and therefore effectively 'mineral' water.
Often when journalists describe caves in the press, 'one kilometer underground' would be better described as 'one kilometer into' the cave. Certainly the cave doesn't look very deep, most river caves form fairly horizontally.
For digging into or exploring from above, what matters much more is how thick the rock is above them (or above a chamber that they can reach), and what it's made out of.
Locating them on the surface (i.e. figuring out where to start digging) will also be a challenge - most caves are not surveyed with a high degree of accuracy, and doing so through a flooded, flowing, low-visibility section is extremely difficult. (One of the rescue divers, John Volanthen, has done some pretty amazing stuff with a water-proof data-logging accelerometer + flux compass in this area - the "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper".) They will probably dive a radio beacon into the cave + then use that to locate the party, combined with a (dry) survey within the cave to figure out the extent of the available space to the survivors.
Radio comms should be setup quite soon - one system which may be of general interest to the Hackernews community is the cave-link: http://www.cavelink.com/cl3x_neu/index.php/en/ It has a lot of automation + resending / checksumming of messages to enable transmission over the very low bandwidth and noisy VLF channel through hundreds of metres of rock.
Do you have a link where I could learn more about that "Lazy Boy Sump Mapper"? I've found several mentions of its use, but would be interested in more technical information.
>How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the time they can get out?
Most cave systems are relatively permeable. Even if you can't see a route out, there are likely to be paths for air movement.
The immediate threat is the accumulation of carbon dioxide rather than a deficit of oxygen. Fresh air is about 0.04% CO2, but most caves have ambient CO2 levels of over 1% and some as high as 6%. You'll start feeling quite unwell above 4%, violently ill above 7% and there's a risk of seizures, unconsciousness and death above 10%. Normal air is about 21% oxygen, you can cope perfectly well on about 16% oxygen and survive on as little as 10% oxygen.
The boys seem alert and in reasonably good spirits, so I'd say that the air in their section of the cave is fairly good.
Most cave systems are relatively permeable. Even if you can't see a route out, there are likely to be paths for air movement.
The immediate threat is the accumulation of carbon dioxide rather than a deficit of oxygen. Fresh air is about 0.04% CO2, but most caves have ambient CO2 levels of over 1% and some as high as 6%. You'll start feeling quite unwell above 4%, violently ill above 7% and there's a risk of seizures, unconsciousness and death above 10%. Normal air is about 21% oxygen, you can cope perfectly well on about 16% oxygen and survive on as little as 10% oxygen.
The boys seem alert and in reasonably good spirits, so I'd say that the air in their section of the cave is fairly good.
Even if the cave was closed from a gaseous perspective, there is flowing water. Gases dissolve in water, although not necessarily very quickly. Would the flow of water allow for CO2 to be removed from the space given a sufficiently large surface area?
Generally caves have elevated CO2 levels not because of human respiration, but because of outgassing - they're generally eroded out of carbonate minerals, and so the water flowing in carries CO2 inside at higher concentrations than the outside world. The smaller the subsystem the human is isolated in, the faster they perturb that equilibrium toward an even higher CO2 level.
The ESA, of all groups, has a pretty good write-up on this: http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-caves-e... They use cave exploration for astronaut team-building, process/workflow training, and acculturation.
The ESA, of all groups, has a pretty good write-up on this: http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-caves-e... They use cave exploration for astronaut team-building, process/workflow training, and acculturation.
The article's reference to the boys faces being lit by torchlight had me pretty startled (considering the implications of fire in an at least partially sealed cave) until I realized the story was in The Guardian!
This article about Harrison Okene whose boat sank is interesting in terms of surviving in an air bubble underwater (and seems somewhat analogous to the cave situation).
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
The most interesting suggestion I read about this was:
> With the rescuers, doctors and other staff likely to enter the cave, rescuers could open scuba tanks to ensure they had all enough oxygen. “It will create air pressure and the carbon dioxide will filter out through the rock,” Wolf said.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/02/thailand-...
>>"It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You can't tell what's up, down, sideways."
Me: Just drop me a gun...I'm claustrophobic and I'd rather die once.
Was there a worldwide competition for the worst place to put these kids, or what?
Me: Just drop me a gun...I'm claustrophobic and I'd rather die once.
Was there a worldwide competition for the worst place to put these kids, or what?
Those divers are super brave. This was done under extremely difficult circumstances, they risked their lives with a reasonably high chance of at least one of them not making it back.
It's skill rather than bravery. Rick Stanton and John Volanthen were the divers who first made contact with the missing boys. They are both hugely experienced cave divers and cave rescue divers; as a team, they have broken multiple records in depth and distance. This was a difficult and complex diving operation, but that's business as usual for divers of this calibre.
Bravery is fundamentally incompatible with cave diving - if you're taking risks in such a hostile environment, you won't survive. What keeps you alive in an underwater cave is training, caution and meticulous attention to detail.
https://youtu.be/qNX5eo2Ja1g
Bravery is fundamentally incompatible with cave diving - if you're taking risks in such a hostile environment, you won't survive. What keeps you alive in an underwater cave is training, caution and meticulous attention to detail.
https://youtu.be/qNX5eo2Ja1g
I fundamentally agree with where you are going, but like another responder, I think that we have different understandings of the word "bravery." Hollywood's idea of "bravery" is really recklessness. And that is absolutely incompatible with cave diving, as it is with racing automobiles, fast and light alpine climbing, and other activities where training and judgment keep you alive.
But as this is not a Hollywood movie, we can use the proper definition:
Cave divers are absolutely courageous. And brave. They just aren't reckless. Or foolhardy. To borrow a phrase from mountaineering:
"There are old cave divers. And bold cave divers. But no old and bold cave divers."
But as this is not a Hollywood movie, we can use the proper definition:
> Courage (also called bravery or valour) is the choice and willingness
> to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation.
> Physical courage is bravery in the face of physical pain, hardship,
> death or threat of death, while moral courage is the ability to act
> rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal,
> discouragement, or personal loss.
Cave divers are absolutely courageous. And brave. They just aren't reckless. Or foolhardy. To borrow a phrase from mountaineering:
"There are old cave divers. And bold cave divers. But no old and bold cave divers."
It seems to me that the "Hollywood bravery" you nicely describe really is bravery - Oxford Dictionaries says the word comes from French braverie or Italian braveria (boldness), based on Latin barbarus (c.f. barbarous). Alternatively it may be from bravo (wild, savage).
Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage, from Latin cor (heart).
I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.
Courage on the other hand comes from Old French corage, from Latin cor (heart).
I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.
It's true that the word comes from those roots, but the Oxford dictionary you cite says plainly that the definition of the word as it is used today is:
Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn reason.
> Courageous behaviour or character.
Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn reason.
I was agreeing with you. You wrote yourself that modern usage is synonymous, so I thought it would be interesting to look at the etymology too.
For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo < Old Italian braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.
For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery (bravo < Old Italian braido, brado (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same thing.
Bravery is not fundamentally incompatible with cave diving: it’s a hard requirement.
People who simply aren’t brave just don’t go cave diving.
That’s not to say that skill and consideration aren’t very important, but those guys are still both brave.
People who simply aren’t brave just don’t go cave diving.
That’s not to say that skill and consideration aren’t very important, but those guys are still both brave.
Bravery is over-rated. It's a poor substitute for skill, experience and professionalism. I say this not to diminish the efforts of these divers, but to praise them fully.
Rock climbers drag themselves up a rock face with their bare hands, using a rope to catch them if they fall. Cavers drag themselves up a rope, because avoiding a fall is better than arresting a fall. That's the fundamental difference in culture and attitude between cavers and participants in "extreme sports".
Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
Rock climbers drag themselves up a rock face with their bare hands, using a rope to catch them if they fall. Cavers drag themselves up a rope, because avoiding a fall is better than arresting a fall. That's the fundamental difference in culture and attitude between cavers and participants in "extreme sports".
Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
Well, I am not a caver, but a climber, but know some, who are both.
I don't think the difference you describe, exists.
Both are activitys which can be very dangerous, but usually those who do it, are smart, because otherwise they would not be alive anymore. I started climbing, beeing not smart. But very soon I started getting smart, because I realised, otherwise I would stop beeing at all or end up paralized.
But there still remains a risk. Just like traffic is dangerous. Also, the thing is, doing the same, safe thing again and again, is boring. You want new experiences, new challenges. Wheter it be a new mountain, or a new cave. But with experience and beeing smart, you can do it quite safely, because you know your limits and the enviroment. But it is never 100% safe. Big rocks can come loose and hit or trap you, or water can come from channels you don't know about. This is life, you can't plan for all events.
But there still remains a risk. Just like traffic is dangerous. Also, the thing is, doing the same, safe thing again and again, is boring. You want new experiences, new challenges. Wheter it be a new mountain, or a new cave. But with experience and beeing smart, you can do it quite safely, because you know your limits and the enviroment. But it is never 100% safe. Big rocks can come loose and hit or trap you, or water can come from channels you don't know about. This is life, you can't plan for all events.
See, no matter how skilled and careful you are, some necessary activities are more dangerous than watching paint dry. And courage/bravery is what motivates you to tackle these activities, in spite of your knowledge of their inherent danger.
Yes, skill is required, but actually skill is associated with courage; it is the skill that enables you to assess just how dangerous the activity might be, but it is courage that motivates you to undertake it, in spite of your knowing that no amount of skill can make it every-day-level safe
Yes, skill is required, but actually skill is associated with courage; it is the skill that enables you to assess just how dangerous the activity might be, but it is courage that motivates you to undertake it, in spite of your knowing that no amount of skill can make it every-day-level safe
This whole argument ranks as one of the silliest things I've ever seen.
No kidding. You can be as prepared as they come and as fit as they come and still face a dangerous situation knowing that someone else's life is on the line going in to risk your own. If that does not qualify as brave I don't know what does.
[deleted]
> Rock climbers drag themselves up a rock face with their bare hands, using a rope to catch them if they fall. Cavers drag themselves up a rope, because avoiding a fall is better than arresting a fall. That's the fundamental difference in culture and attitude between cavers and participants in "extreme sports".
I completely disagree. I am a climber, I climb sports, trad and free-solo. Trad requires the most skill in evaluating risk and coping with and rationalising fear (my definition of bravery; conversely doing dangerous things without fear or understanding is not bravery, it's stupidity).
When you place gear on a route you are constantly assessing the capability of the system which affects your trust in falling on it, because not all routes have the same natural quantity, quality or distribution of protection... Bravery comes in all kinds of forms depending on the exact combination of gear and fall potential (what you are falling into), but an obviously valid type of bravery which is easiest to explain here is dealing with _irrational_ fear when you have the experience and skill to know that the system works but has a big fall potential: e.g you have completely solid gear well distributed up the bottom half of a pitch on a sheer or overhanging face with good fall potential, but a hard run-out stretch above with no gear (lets say 1/4 of the bottom half and about 6 meters above protection to make it scary but no groundfall potential), this is safe to fall on, but you will be scared and it will take bravery and experience (experience of how the gear works and knowing how much you can trust it, experience of falling and knowing how to react and what to expect from such a fall).
A more realistic and interesting scenarios are when there is some significant amount of risk, innate fear is very useful here to guide you to the seriousness of a situation, but you need the skill and experience to separate it from the irrational and then manage the "rational" part by responding to it but not letting it control you.
> Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
I'm not a caver but I doubt any of the cavers involved in this dive would agree that "They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous". There _are_ inherent dangers with this dive, experience and skill allows you to mitigate and manage it and respond to dangers in the best way possible, but there will always be some amount of risk you cannot eradicate, this is where bravery has it's place, it's not about being fearless, it's about being in control and understanding and accepting the potential outcomes.
I completely disagree. I am a climber, I climb sports, trad and free-solo. Trad requires the most skill in evaluating risk and coping with and rationalising fear (my definition of bravery; conversely doing dangerous things without fear or understanding is not bravery, it's stupidity).
When you place gear on a route you are constantly assessing the capability of the system which affects your trust in falling on it, because not all routes have the same natural quantity, quality or distribution of protection... Bravery comes in all kinds of forms depending on the exact combination of gear and fall potential (what you are falling into), but an obviously valid type of bravery which is easiest to explain here is dealing with _irrational_ fear when you have the experience and skill to know that the system works but has a big fall potential: e.g you have completely solid gear well distributed up the bottom half of a pitch on a sheer or overhanging face with good fall potential, but a hard run-out stretch above with no gear (lets say 1/4 of the bottom half and about 6 meters above protection to make it scary but no groundfall potential), this is safe to fall on, but you will be scared and it will take bravery and experience (experience of how the gear works and knowing how much you can trust it, experience of falling and knowing how to react and what to expect from such a fall).
A more realistic and interesting scenarios are when there is some significant amount of risk, innate fear is very useful here to guide you to the seriousness of a situation, but you need the skill and experience to separate it from the irrational and then manage the "rational" part by responding to it but not letting it control you.
> Cavers go into a hazardous environment, but they mitigate those hazards through meticulous planning and preparation. They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous, but technically demanding. If you're taking risks in a cave, you're foolish rather than brave - you're working beyond the limits of your skill and experience.
I'm not a caver but I doubt any of the cavers involved in this dive would agree that "They don't see their activities as inherently dangerous". There _are_ inherent dangers with this dive, experience and skill allows you to mitigate and manage it and respond to dangers in the best way possible, but there will always be some amount of risk you cannot eradicate, this is where bravery has it's place, it's not about being fearless, it's about being in control and understanding and accepting the potential outcomes.
I will just leave this here for your reflection:
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/thai-cave-diver-intl...
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/05/asia/thai-cave-diver-intl...
What's astounding is that they barely managed to scrape by with the amount of ration that was left, and the first thing the boys asked for after contact was for food and fresh water -- cannot imagine how ravenous those young lads must've been. [0]
Also, just a reminder -- they're still not out yet. Thailand's armed forces are still at work trying to figure out a way to get the boys out, given how deep inside the cave they're stuck (more than a kilometer inside). News reports suggest the team and its coach would be getting months' worth of supplies and diving lesson in case water level rises. Very dramatic. [0]
[0] https://www.dw.com/en/thailand-boys-soccer-team-lost-in-cave...
[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/02/twelve-children-...
Also, just a reminder -- they're still not out yet. Thailand's armed forces are still at work trying to figure out a way to get the boys out, given how deep inside the cave they're stuck (more than a kilometer inside). News reports suggest the team and its coach would be getting months' worth of supplies and diving lesson in case water level rises. Very dramatic. [0]
[0] https://www.dw.com/en/thailand-boys-soccer-team-lost-in-cave...
[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/02/twelve-children-...
>Very dramatic.
Indeed. Reminds me of the Chilean mining incident 8 years ago which had many parallels to the one in Thailand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_acc...
Indeed. Reminds me of the Chilean mining incident 8 years ago which had many parallels to the one in Thailand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_acc...
That's really not so. Cave diving has well established protocols for safe navigation, gas reserves, entanglement management, and so on. There's no way they'd have gone significantly outside those protocols. Those brits are highly experienced expedition cave divers, and undoubtedly pushed it further than a weekend warrior like me would do. But they really wouldn't have been dicing with death, as it were.
How do you feel about this comment now that one of the rescue divers has died?
Not one of the Brits as far as I can tell but an ex navy seal.
Not one of the Brits as far as I can tell but an ex navy seal.
Given that I'm sitting at home watching TV - and they're all busting their asses off in the cave - it's hard to discuss this without being disrespectful to them - which I certainly don't want to be. But anyway...
Looking at some of the photos, lots of the gear they are wearing is ordinary recreational gear - nothing like what an experienced cave diver would use. So it raises the question, in my mind, as to whether their navy seals actually do have any formal training in advanced cave diving. Combat diving is unlikely to be the same thing.
So the very unfortunate incident might actually support my previous comment, not contradict it. Cave diving is very dangerous to the untrained or improperly equipped. But proper training and equipment can mitigate those dangers. The two brits would not have been wearing anything like the kind of gear in the photos :-(
Again, kudos to the people on the spot, doing their best.
Looking at some of the photos, lots of the gear they are wearing is ordinary recreational gear - nothing like what an experienced cave diver would use. So it raises the question, in my mind, as to whether their navy seals actually do have any formal training in advanced cave diving. Combat diving is unlikely to be the same thing.
So the very unfortunate incident might actually support my previous comment, not contradict it. Cave diving is very dangerous to the untrained or improperly equipped. But proper training and equipment can mitigate those dangers. The two brits would not have been wearing anything like the kind of gear in the photos :-(
Again, kudos to the people on the spot, doing their best.
You realize you are making a 'no real cave diver' argument now?
For their sake I hope nothing happens to those British guys, but if it does you'd better find a quiet spot somewhere.
For some background: the diver that died ran out of oxygen after leaving the maximum of oxygen in the cave (where it is dropping).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44734385
For their sake I hope nothing happens to those British guys, but if it does you'd better find a quiet spot somewhere.
For some background: the diver that died ran out of oxygen after leaving the maximum of oxygen in the cave (where it is dropping).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44734385
Try to follow along.
You: the two Brits were risking their lives.
Me: Not really, they'd have been following standard cave diving safety protocols.
You (effectively): Well, a Navy Seal just died, so that proves that it's dangerous.
Me: There's evidence that the Navy Seals weren't trained cave divers - they certainly didn't seem to be equipped as such - so all it proves is that cave diving is dangerous to those without specific training and/or proper equipment - navy seals or otherwise.
You: you'll change your tune if one of the brits dies!
W-T-F?
Here's a short list of how the diving equipment in some of the photos is absolutely noncompliant with proper cave diving equipment. This implies to me that they are not trained cave divers, and consequently, the risks they unknowingly took were enormously greater than the risks the two brits took:
(1) Single tanks! Fine in recreational diving, because if something goes wrong with your air supply (tank valve fails, hose bursts, regulator falls apart, whatever), you can go to your buddy for air, or at worst, bolt to the surface. No good in cave diving, where there isn't any air at the surface, and your buddy might be 20 meters away at the other end of a tight restriction. So all cave divers use twin tanks. We also follow gas management rules designed to let us survive the following two scenarios: (a) At the point of maximum penetration, you get separated from your buddy, and simultaneously, one of your two tanks completely fails; and (b) at the point of maximum penetration, you're still with your buddy, but both of your (or his) two tanks fail. Diving on a single tank is fundamentally noncompliant with all those standard safety protocols.
(2) Hoses curving out around their heads. These are common in recreational diving, but a serious entanglement hazard in cave diving. Cave divers route all their hoses tight-in, to reduce entanglement risks. This is especially important in low or no visibility diving. No properly trained cave diver would leave the house with hose routing like that in some of those photos. Even if an experienced cave diver was forced to use that gear by circumstance or in a dire emergency, she'd fix that up before she got in the water.
(3) K-valves! The top of each tank has a valve, onto which you attach the first stage pressure reduction regulator. Those valves come in two styles: K-valves, and DIN valves. Each style has a rubber O-ring to seal the regulator onto the valve. With K-valves, the O-ring can squeeze out, causing the attachment to fail. That's rare, but can happen. Bad luck if you're a kilometre into the cave - on a single tank - with your buddy at the other end of the restriction!! With DIN valves, the O-ring is trapped entirely within the valve body, so it can't pop out. For that reason, few if any properly trained cave divers would use K-valves.
(4) Funky hand held torches! They probably throw a nice wide beam, which is good for recreational dives. But cave divers need narrow beams (to cut through the murk, and facilitate signalling); with multi-hour durations, and hands-free attachments so you can use that hand for other tasks.
In summary, someone who is an experienced brain surgeon, gets into a Formula One car, prangs it, and kills himself. To me, that doesn't say much about the safety of properly trained and qualified Formula One drivers.
But you say that the death of a person, who may have had zero formal training in cave diving, says something about the safety risks the two brits took? Perhaos two of the most experienced expedition cave divers in the world?
I think you do not understand the issues. I don't intend to reply again.
You: the two Brits were risking their lives.
Me: Not really, they'd have been following standard cave diving safety protocols.
You (effectively): Well, a Navy Seal just died, so that proves that it's dangerous.
Me: There's evidence that the Navy Seals weren't trained cave divers - they certainly didn't seem to be equipped as such - so all it proves is that cave diving is dangerous to those without specific training and/or proper equipment - navy seals or otherwise.
You: you'll change your tune if one of the brits dies!
W-T-F?
Here's a short list of how the diving equipment in some of the photos is absolutely noncompliant with proper cave diving equipment. This implies to me that they are not trained cave divers, and consequently, the risks they unknowingly took were enormously greater than the risks the two brits took:
(1) Single tanks! Fine in recreational diving, because if something goes wrong with your air supply (tank valve fails, hose bursts, regulator falls apart, whatever), you can go to your buddy for air, or at worst, bolt to the surface. No good in cave diving, where there isn't any air at the surface, and your buddy might be 20 meters away at the other end of a tight restriction. So all cave divers use twin tanks. We also follow gas management rules designed to let us survive the following two scenarios: (a) At the point of maximum penetration, you get separated from your buddy, and simultaneously, one of your two tanks completely fails; and (b) at the point of maximum penetration, you're still with your buddy, but both of your (or his) two tanks fail. Diving on a single tank is fundamentally noncompliant with all those standard safety protocols.
(2) Hoses curving out around their heads. These are common in recreational diving, but a serious entanglement hazard in cave diving. Cave divers route all their hoses tight-in, to reduce entanglement risks. This is especially important in low or no visibility diving. No properly trained cave diver would leave the house with hose routing like that in some of those photos. Even if an experienced cave diver was forced to use that gear by circumstance or in a dire emergency, she'd fix that up before she got in the water.
(3) K-valves! The top of each tank has a valve, onto which you attach the first stage pressure reduction regulator. Those valves come in two styles: K-valves, and DIN valves. Each style has a rubber O-ring to seal the regulator onto the valve. With K-valves, the O-ring can squeeze out, causing the attachment to fail. That's rare, but can happen. Bad luck if you're a kilometre into the cave - on a single tank - with your buddy at the other end of the restriction!! With DIN valves, the O-ring is trapped entirely within the valve body, so it can't pop out. For that reason, few if any properly trained cave divers would use K-valves.
(4) Funky hand held torches! They probably throw a nice wide beam, which is good for recreational dives. But cave divers need narrow beams (to cut through the murk, and facilitate signalling); with multi-hour durations, and hands-free attachments so you can use that hand for other tasks.
In summary, someone who is an experienced brain surgeon, gets into a Formula One car, prangs it, and kills himself. To me, that doesn't say much about the safety of properly trained and qualified Formula One drivers.
But you say that the death of a person, who may have had zero formal training in cave diving, says something about the safety risks the two brits took? Perhaos two of the most experienced expedition cave divers in the world?
I think you do not understand the issues. I don't intend to reply again.
No, I think you let your knowledge of cave diving cloud your vision: this is dangerous, and to enter that situation willingly is brave.
You can make it sound like it isn't by hauling in everything and the kitchen sink in terms of technology but that does not change the ground rules.
In the meantime, with all your knowledge and background you're armchair quarterbacking a rescue operation that is most likely doing what can be done given the tools at hand.
So the people that are doing this are doing it because they feel they have to, because they feel the lives of those kids matter to them even if they have only potential downside for themselves.
That we are even having this discussion is beyond bizarre.
You can make it sound like it isn't by hauling in everything and the kitchen sink in terms of technology but that does not change the ground rules.
In the meantime, with all your knowledge and background you're armchair quarterbacking a rescue operation that is most likely doing what can be done given the tools at hand.
So the people that are doing this are doing it because they feel they have to, because they feel the lives of those kids matter to them even if they have only potential downside for themselves.
That we are even having this discussion is beyond bizarre.
You said the brits were risking their lives. I said they weren't, at least to the extent that you believed - and explained why in exhaustive detail. But you disagree, based on qualifications and experience that could roughly be described as: zero. I'll speak to doctors Dunning & Kruger and see if they can fit you in next week for a chat.
Please don't do flamewars on HN, and especially please don't be uncivil and personally nasty.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it looks like you've been making a habit of being uncivil to other commenters on HN (for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17435527). We ban accounts that can't or won't stop doing this, so would you please not do it anymore?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it looks like you've been making a habit of being uncivil to other commenters on HN (for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17435527). We ban accounts that can't or won't stop doing this, so would you please not do it anymore?
Apparently you don't read replies to your posts. So I'll email this as well as posting it here for the record. I have automatic copyright to all the posts that I've made to this forum. I now request you to delete all those posts, or at least edit them all to "XXX" (or similar), by close of business on Friday 20 July your time. If that does not occur, I'll engage local US representation to pursue that issue on my behalf. Thanks in anticipation
Obviously we have different ideas about what constitutes intelligent argument. Please delete my account. If you need a formal request to that effect, say here how to submit that.
I have a weird phobia where I'm afraid of caves - the very idea of caving in small caves where people wriggle through has always terrified me and as for cave diving....
I could not do what they have done - not if my life depended on it....
Personally, I think they deserve the very highest honours we can give them as a country.
I could not do what they have done - not if my life depended on it....
Personally, I think they deserve the very highest honours we can give them as a country.
It's not that weird, caves are dangerous! A weird phobia would be if you were terrified of grass or mirrors.
That's not a weird phobia by any means. That's very common and it's called claustrophobia.
I'm not afraid of small enclosed spaces (e.g. in a building) - I'm afraid of caves :-)
I'm no psychologist but I think claustrophobia can express itself in different ways in different people - if it's the enclosed spaces in caves that make you fearful/anxious, it's a claustrophobic reaction. You wouldn't necessarily also have to have the same reaction in e.g. an elevator.
> claustrophobia can express itself in different ways
Too right. I'm a reasonably experienced cave diver, and regularly dive in a system of 11km of intersecting fully-underwater tunnels, with the single entry/exit being a small pond, a few feet across, in a small, underground air-filled cave. I'd typically go 700-800 meters out, with a dozen navigational decisions along the way (left? right? straight ahead?), then have to reverse all that to get back out. But a few years ago I had an MRI, where you're wheeled into a narrow metal tube, on your back, with your arms pinned to your sides, with the tube an inch away from your face. Result: GET ME OUT!! GET ME OUT!! I had to be wheeled back out & take a break, before I could grit my teeth and try again. I absolutely hated it. I told them I was an active cave diver, but I don't think they believed me :-)
Too right. I'm a reasonably experienced cave diver, and regularly dive in a system of 11km of intersecting fully-underwater tunnels, with the single entry/exit being a small pond, a few feet across, in a small, underground air-filled cave. I'd typically go 700-800 meters out, with a dozen navigational decisions along the way (left? right? straight ahead?), then have to reverse all that to get back out. But a few years ago I had an MRI, where you're wheeled into a narrow metal tube, on your back, with your arms pinned to your sides, with the tube an inch away from your face. Result: GET ME OUT!! GET ME OUT!! I had to be wheeled back out & take a break, before I could grit my teeth and try again. I absolutely hated it. I told them I was an active cave diver, but I don't think they believed me :-)
My personal experience is that I never experienced claustrophobia in normal conditions (lifts, tunnels) but I did while scuba diving in the dark.
There are degrees to these phobias, of course. One can find a four story roof acceptable but a ten story roof terrifying. Or a speech in front of twenty easy but one in front of 1000 paralyzing.
Scope doesn't change the phobia.
Scope doesn't change the phobia.
Cavephobia! ;-)
(as others point out, it's probably the same)
(as others point out, it's probably the same)
Of course. Caves aren't designed by people for people, so there are surprises there.
I haven't thought that it's a big deal until actually having to lead into a pretty tight passage without prior information about it.
I haven't thought that it's a big deal until actually having to lead into a pretty tight passage without prior information about it.
I've always wondered this: is it appropriate to call fears of legitimately dangerous things "phobias"? I don't like being close to the edge of deadly tall cliffs; am I scared of heights or are cliffs just dangerous?
I would imagine its based on how reasonable the fear is; I have a (minor) fear of heights that activates regardless of how safe an environment I'm in. If I'm standing precariously on a rooftop, or just standing idly on a well-secured ladder, the fear is the same (given the same height). In my case, I can still operate without much trouble (it remains there, but I can ignore it), but if it were debilitating, I think it certainly makes sense to refer to it as a phobia.
Not just a fear, but an unreasonable fear, that limits your ability to operate.
I think a non-phobia would be acknowledging that the danger exists, but also acknowledging its risk (according to the safety of your environment), and your fear rises accordingly (linearly?).
Not just a fear, but an unreasonable fear, that limits your ability to operate.
I think a non-phobia would be acknowledging that the danger exists, but also acknowledging its risk (according to the safety of your environment), and your fear rises accordingly (linearly?).
My feeling also - look up the concept "l'appel du void", finally explained my reactions to high open places.
Although I still don't like being in the high floors of buildings - those Dubai towers give me the honest to god creeps.
Although I still don't like being in the high floors of buildings - those Dubai towers give me the honest to god creeps.
Have you read about ted the caver?
I'm pleasantly surprised to see that they've been able to survive this long without access to food and possibly clean water. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be stuck in a cave for nine days and then suddenly see two divers show up as part of the rescue effort!
> rescuers have said they may have to wait several weeks for the water to subside before they can be taken out.
Ouch
> Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy. That also begets the question: if the dives are difficult then supply will be difficult, but the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater
Ouch
> Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy. That also begets the question: if the dives are difficult then supply will be difficult, but the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater
>have to wait several weeks
A BBC article said it could be months, much less weeks. It's the beginning of the rainy season.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813
A BBC article said it could be months, much less weeks. It's the beginning of the rainy season.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813
It's interesting, I wonder what the pros and cons are for drilling to retrieve them or send supplies. In the mine collapse situations that I'm aware of, there was already infrastructure on hand for heavy equipment and drilling.
I have to imagine that the dangers of cave diving are multiplicative - you don't get enough skill-based improvement from any given trip into/out to make repeated trips a safe option.
I have to imagine that the dangers of cave diving are multiplicative - you don't get enough skill-based improvement from any given trip into/out to make repeated trips a safe option.
One more benefit they had with the mine was that they knew where it was and had it mapped. As far as I know no-one knows where to drill above ground to get to the chamber.
Ah, that's a subtle but in retrospect obvious consideration. Fascinating stuff to think about.
I'm sure I don't understand the scale of this. I would however think that you can bring huge industrial pumps and do some plumbing to a suitable place to dump the water and turn them on. Holland once send 7 million ton a day of pumping capacity to England to help them out. Could that not make a serious impact on the water levels in the cave?
Industrial scale pumps certainly exist, but they aren't exactly small and easily portable. I'm not familiar with the one Holland sent England, but I suspect it was pre-assembled on a ship?
The highest capacity pumps in New Orleans can move roughly 10,000 gallons a second, but they require a supply "hose" that's ~8-10 feet in diameter to reach that volume. You'd need to get an enormous hose to a low point of the cave system, which may not be near the entrance.
Then there's the question of what to do with the water you pump out. Maybe there's a river nearby that can absorb it?
It is doable, but it's neither simple, not particularly quick.
The highest capacity pumps in New Orleans can move roughly 10,000 gallons a second, but they require a supply "hose" that's ~8-10 feet in diameter to reach that volume. You'd need to get an enormous hose to a low point of the cave system, which may not be near the entrance.
Then there's the question of what to do with the water you pump out. Maybe there's a river nearby that can absorb it?
It is doable, but it's neither simple, not particularly quick.
Also, the pumps have to be at the lowest point, pushing the water up - a siphon has a maximum height that a vacuum can draw water up of around 10m.[0] You can't just stick the pump at the entrance and then shove a pipe hundreds of meters down the cave system, you need to take the pump down there and run the hose back to the outside.
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon
I did not think of that.
My suspicion is that it isn't so much pumping capacity that's the issue but complexity.
Stupid question. If you manage to drill down to the cave, don't you pierce the air bubble that prevents the water from rising and flooding the cave?
Caves are quite permeable. It's not air pressure holding back the water, it's just a matter of how much water there is (the cave goes into the side of a mountain, it doesn't just go down into the ground).
The first dive is the hardest. You can install a line during it, which you will use for subsequent dives that will secure you next attempts.
you can survive over a month without food, but they must have found some water.
update: they are surrounded by water which gets contaminated by their excrements. not good.
update: they are surrounded by water which gets contaminated by their excrements. not good.
They were stuck in a cave that was flooding. Plenty of water to go around. Probably not the cleanest but will do in an emergency.
Diarrhea will make you die a lot faster, your attitude is a bit blasè for water that is potentially contaminated with feces.
It's not like someone from the US who has only drank clean processed water
Why would there be feces? They aren't in sewers.
And even if there was a chance of diarrhoea, what would be your alternative?
And even if there was a chance of diarrhoea, what would be your alternative?
In flood waters? Because there is a little bit of everything in flood waters.
Apparently there is water seeping into the space they are in. I'd drink that before I'd drink the inundation water.
Apparently there is water seeping into the space they are in. I'd drink that before I'd drink the inundation water.
But that's exactly what the GP said.. they are being flooded.
>Why would there be feces?
Because they have to go too.
Because they have to go too.
They are being flooded, fresh water goes in.. most likely along the walls too.
[deleted]
Yes, I'd like to know where they found water clean enough to drink, or a way to make it clean. Floodwater runoff is probably not the best thing to ingest…
Can't find the link, but saw a video of someone of the rescue team explaining there is drinkable mineral water streaming off the walls in the cave.
Note everyone is used to having chlorinated and flouride(d) water so their bodies might have been used to relatively dirty water. Of course, I could wrong in their case...don't know their background
How prejudiced of you :) Most places in Thailand have access to purified water for drinking.
Here is an article from Cambodia, where they are some years behind: https://medium.com/make-a-difference/bringing-clean-water-to...
Here is an article from Cambodia, where they are some years behind: https://medium.com/make-a-difference/bringing-clean-water-to...
ha! They down-voted me apparently. To those that down-voted me: Not everyone can turn the tap on and get clean water. Even if Thailand has it today, they probably didn't have it yesterday. When you drink from dubious sources, unless you die as a child, you gain some sort of immunity. A techie from SF can get sick and even die, but a local can drink from the same source and nothing happens to him /her.
Thais mostly drink bottled water, which is clean. They aren't drinking river water or something. Most of Thailand lacks drinkable tap water. Food hygiene standards are more lax than in the West though.
>> Thais mostly drink bottled water, which is clean. They aren't drinking river water or something.Most of Thailand lacks drinkable tap water.
Thanks for the inside info. But do they brush their teeth with bottled water? Do they wash their dishes, tomatoes with bottled water or with "dirty" tap water?
Thanks for the inside info. But do they brush their teeth with bottled water? Do they wash their dishes, tomatoes with bottled water or with "dirty" tap water?
I'm a techie from EU and have survived to tell the story of multiple tooth brushings with tap water in Thailand.
Sarcasm aside, I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in places I've been to in Thailand (and I live half there, half EU), tap water is fine for washing/brushing and if anything, too chlorinated (and thus not too drinkable). I still drink bottled water (or filtered water; many local friends have filters installed to their tap).
Sarcasm aside, I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in places I've been to in Thailand (and I live half there, half EU), tap water is fine for washing/brushing and if anything, too chlorinated (and thus not too drinkable). I still drink bottled water (or filtered water; many local friends have filters installed to their tap).
I think most people in Thailand do all of those things with tap water, but there may be exceptions in especially poor, isolated or rural areas. In Bangkok the debate has advanced to whether the water is actually drinkable now (in much of the city the answer is probably yes).
I’m from North Africa, and this is very true. If you haven’t grown up drinking the tap water there, it will make you very sick. But locals drink it without problem.
They are now expected to have to survive in the cave for several months more, before rescue :(
There's an interesting parallel here to the incident in 2013[1] where a Nigerian ship's cook survived for 60 hours in an air bubble 30 meters under the surface in a sunken capsized tugboat.
That was also a case where someone with no prior experience as a diver had to be extracted from a situation otherwise requiring some fairly advanced dive training. From the article:
> The rescuing divers fitted Okene with a diving helmet so he could breathe while being transferred into a closed diving bell and returned to the surface for decompression from saturation. Okene lost consciousness during the transfer.
According to the BBC[2] they'll probably end up doing something similar to extract those kids. They'd need to drag them over a long distance (probably one at a time) as "dead weight", but this method wouldn't require them to learn any diving skills.
> The Thai authorities have appealed for donations of full-face scuba diving masks small enough to fit the boys in order to reduce the risk of their breathing apparatus coming loose as they travel through flooded passageways.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquanaut#Accidental_aquanaut
2. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813
That was also a case where someone with no prior experience as a diver had to be extracted from a situation otherwise requiring some fairly advanced dive training. From the article:
> The rescuing divers fitted Okene with a diving helmet so he could breathe while being transferred into a closed diving bell and returned to the surface for decompression from saturation. Okene lost consciousness during the transfer.
According to the BBC[2] they'll probably end up doing something similar to extract those kids. They'd need to drag them over a long distance (probably one at a time) as "dead weight", but this method wouldn't require them to learn any diving skills.
> The Thai authorities have appealed for donations of full-face scuba diving masks small enough to fit the boys in order to reduce the risk of their breathing apparatus coming loose as they travel through flooded passageways.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquanaut#Accidental_aquanaut
2. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813
The actual video shot by the rescuing divers shows how calm and control the leader of the expedition acts after they encounter Harrison alive. Starts around 5:50
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=51e_1385934620
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=51e_1385934620
Earlier reports was that the water in the cave is like cold coffee and it is easily one of the worst environment to try get non-divers through several km of cave diving. The technical details will be interesting to see once they hopefully solve the problem of getting everyone out.
Sounds like they aren't going to try and solve that problem. It's going to be wait for several months or possibly learn rudimentary diving skills
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44692813
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44692813
Assuming the divers will have to shuttle supplies to the trapped team: is there a way to make repeated dives less risky, such as stringing a guide line that divers can follow?
Guide lines are absolutely essential in cave diving. At almost any point in a cave dive, there's a risk of disturbing silt and losing visibility. Cave divers have developed a sophisticated set of tools and techniques for navigating in conditions of low or zero visibility.
Many underwater cave entrances are marked with a stark warning sign bearing an image of the grim reaper, imploring the diver to "prevent your death - go no farther". Underwater caves can be enticing to divers, but entering one without the correct training and equipment is extraordinarily dangerous. Hundreds of scuba divers have swum into an inviting-looking cave with crystal clear water, then turned around to see a wall of darkness from the silt they have kicked up; very few have lived to tell the tale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_line
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/up...
https://youtu.be/PVmqK5YZuxM
Many underwater cave entrances are marked with a stark warning sign bearing an image of the grim reaper, imploring the diver to "prevent your death - go no farther". Underwater caves can be enticing to divers, but entering one without the correct training and equipment is extraordinarily dangerous. Hundreds of scuba divers have swum into an inviting-looking cave with crystal clear water, then turned around to see a wall of darkness from the silt they have kicked up; very few have lived to tell the tale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_line
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/up...
https://youtu.be/PVmqK5YZuxM
Top quality video. Thanks for sharing, man.
Oh, wow - thank you for the info. I had no idea.
Narongsak explained that the divers had fixed rope lines along the passageway and distributed oxygen tanks along their route, allowing them to advance through the exceptionally narrow passageway unencumbered by bulky equipment. Other teams worked to pump out floodwater and divert groundwater, he said.
Now that the route is mapped, I wonder if you could get robots to do the supply trips instead.
It can be hard enough for a human to not get stuck somewhere in a cave. There's little chance you'll figure out how to get a robot to do the trip before the whole situation is resolved anyways.
In such situations it's best to go with the simplest solution you know will work and people are trained for, instead of trying to get fancy and possibly endanger the whole undertaking (imagine a robot getting stuck somewhere and blocking the way for everyone...).
In such situations it's best to go with the simplest solution you know will work and people are trained for, instead of trying to get fancy and possibly endanger the whole undertaking (imagine a robot getting stuck somewhere and blocking the way for everyone...).
By robot I meant remote controlled, not self-driving. But fair point - adding another obstacle would be tragic, yes.
The situational awareness of an ROV operator (who can only get visual feedback (in very low visibility conditions) is far lower than a diver (Who can feel their way along). Way too easy for an ROV (which has to tow along a tether) to get itself tangled somewhere.
Is sonar an option at the kind of scales involved?
I am by no means a subject matter expert, but I'd expect sonar would be next to useless in turbulent water, close to a bunch of highly reflective surfaces. Sonar also doesn't solve the problem of a kilometer long tether getting tangled at some point.
Visibility is basically zero, a remote operator wouldn't be able to see anything.
Yep.
I don't know anything about that cave, but it's quite common for cave divers to remove their equipment (and put it in front of them) because a passage is so small that the diver and a gas tank won't fit at the same time. What's the chance of a robot doing the same?
I don't know anything about that cave, but it's quite common for cave divers to remove their equipment (and put it in front of them) because a passage is so small that the diver and a gas tank won't fit at the same time. What's the chance of a robot doing the same?
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If you find the video where they make first contact you can see one of the divers has a reel that will have had a line attached, and they discuss how to secure it.
Could they use a long rope as a track/guide with the "packages" tethered to it?
How realistic would it be to drill a more convenient entrance from above?
How realistic would it be to drill a more convenient entrance from above?
but how did they survive the initial 10 days? That's a lot of kids to care for. Why were they in there in the first place if it had a warning sign?
They had some snacks with them when they went into the cave.
Basically, there is a warning sign for cave flooding during July and October. Monsoon season is not likely to start at the end of June so they might thought it is still be fine to go into the cave.
Basically, there is a warning sign for cave flooding during July and October. Monsoon season is not likely to start at the end of June so they might thought it is still be fine to go into the cave.
I’m curious about why they aren’t using robotics to driver food - seems like it would be safer than having human divers go back and forth
You can't drag 1km of tough power and control cable behind a little robot, and autonomous robots aren't up to the job yet.
This thing has a 2km long fibre optic tether and is battery powered. Been in use since 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafox_drone
Cool. But that vehicle is open underwater only. These caves are a mixture of swimming, walking and climbing. Lots of power required, and very tough to teleoperate.
Because robots up to the task don't exist yet (and aren't even particularly close). It's a very hard problem.
I'd imagine the psychological relief of seeing a human being rather than a robot has a lot to do with it.
It has nothing to do with it... Robots are not an option because it's a zero visibility environment (cameras for remote operation are useless).
I'm happy to stand corrected. However, zero visual visibility doesn't seem like a limitation for a remotely piloted robot. Can't they just as easily use sonar, radar, or some other form of non-optical "vision"? Fishermen use "fish finders" which are non-optical, so I'd guess the tech is pervasive and cheap.
I don't expect sonar would work well in turbulent water, with highly reflective (rock) jagged cave walls.
"None of them can swim"
Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die.
Whatever was their coach thinking?
Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die.
Whatever was their coach thinking?
Personally I think the coach should be commended for keeping all those boys safe and alive in such conditions. He couldn't have known the cave was going to flood, the signs say don't go in in between July and September - they entered in June. Without a strong leader this probably would have been a very different outcome already and they'd be dealing with retrieving corpses.
I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful, especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.
I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful, especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.
Actually, it was irresponsible to take them on a cave tour this time of year because the rains often start in June, regardless of when the official start of rainy season is called. It's been like that as long as I've lived here, and there have been quite a few cases of cave tourists getting trapped during rainy season. So he did a good job of taking care of them once they were in trouble, but he should have not taken them in there in the first place.
If the rains often start in June, why do the signs say July?
There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an inexperienced caver is very useful.
There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an inexperienced caver is very useful.
He lives in Thailand so he knows it often rains in June. He entered the cave only one week before the official start of rainy season. He took a rather large group of kids, not adults who could assess the risk themselves and decide whether or not to take the risk. I would say that adds up to being very irresponsible.
I assume it was his decision to take all those children down there, so it was not beyond his control. Did he at least check the weather forecast?
If my comment was designed to provoke, then it was to provoke people to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves sometimes.
I actually find your comment somewhat unhelpful and grating. It is all very well everyone being a hero and never admitting to any wrong decisions but that is exactly the sort of attitude that leads to these situations and to their repetition. If nobody has done anything wrong, there is nothing to learn.
If my comment was designed to provoke, then it was to provoke people to think. We need to be able to think for ourselves sometimes.
I actually find your comment somewhat unhelpful and grating. It is all very well everyone being a hero and never admitting to any wrong decisions but that is exactly the sort of attitude that leads to these situations and to their repetition. If nobody has done anything wrong, there is nothing to learn.
Your idea of learning from this is to say "What was he thinking?", which in your context is is a rhetorical question. You're not trying to understand the thought process, instead you're making a statement to imply that the leader wasn't thinking about the group's safety when taking them into the cave and is negligent.
This may or may not be true, or could be somewhere in between. But it specifically does not, and actually actively pushes against finding a solution that ensures this never happens again.
By blaming someone for an error instead of the system that allowed, encouraged and enabled them to make that error you end up not solving anything, and the same problems crop up again, and again.
This may or may not be true, or could be somewhere in between. But it specifically does not, and actually actively pushes against finding a solution that ensures this never happens again.
By blaming someone for an error instead of the system that allowed, encouraged and enabled them to make that error you end up not solving anything, and the same problems crop up again, and again.
Blaming the system works in urban environments or corporate engineering processes. Vast swathes of the world have no "system" to protect you, except for maybe a sign if sufficiently many people have died from a hazard and somebody cared enough to make one (and overcame pushback about disturbing the environment). Examples of such environments include backcountry travel, rural living (even in developed countries), and most certainly caving.
"learn to swim and dive right down there or die."
It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense.
I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers.
That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours.
My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope;
Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.
It's quite common to see non-drivers saying this kind of non-sense.
I have more than 150 dives and even with wreck training and experience I would never, never, never do cave diving. It's ridiculous dangerous, even for experienced cave divers. Without visibility and training, people die. Experienced cave divers get panic attacks and die. It's hard to control someone during a panic attack in open waters, in confined environment it might be even impossible. Divers in panic are also a hazard for other divers.
That said, consider taking an untrained kid in an environment they have no experience with for three hours.
My bet is that they will not make them dive. I wouldn't be surprised if they are talking about diving lessons only to buy time and keep them occupied and give them hope;
Unless plan A (pump the water out) and plan B (wait until September ends) becomes a non-option (due to emergencies), they won't swim/dive they way out.
You are right of course and that is why I said they will still be very lucky to get out alive. They don't even know how to swim and must be quite weak already.
Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.
Somehow I do not see keeping them there till September, with water levels possibly rising further, as much of an option either.
The water levels might not rise further, and there's also the drilling option. There's even a chance that the water will recede enough to walk out; the weather report for the next week or two has ~no rain.
It's far too early to assume that only the most dangerous option is an option at all.
It's far too early to assume that only the most dangerous option is an option at all.
Locals can easily be careless about weather; if the monsoon season doesn't normally started at near the end of June, then I can see the conversation being "normally it doesn't rain around this time. It should still be fine to go in." I won't argue that the coach were being careless, though.
Disclaimer: my mother is from the region (Mae Chan is only few kms away from the cave, which is in Mae Sai) and she wasn't surprised with the fact that they went in.
Disclaimer: my mother is from the region (Mae Chan is only few kms away from the cave, which is in Mae Sai) and she wasn't surprised with the fact that they went in.
Since the cave is off-limit during rainy season (which typically shouldn't have begun yet), I'd guess that nobody know the cave will flood
JFYI today's headline: Navy SEAL dies in the cave.
Care to retract your comment?
Care to retract your comment?
Found this from a Bill Whitehouse:
Bill Whitehouse, vice-chair of the British Cave Rescue Council which is helping the rescue efforts, played down speculation the boys could be taught to dive.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he suggested they could be guided through the water in “packages”.
Asked how feasible it would be to teach the children to dive, he said: “It is certainly not easy. The other alternative is that you literally bring them out in packages. In other words you fit them with diving equipment: a full face mask, instead of having a gag in your mouth like a lot of divers use; package them up; put the correct weights on them so that they are neutrally bouyant and are not going to get stuck again. It has been done before.”
He also explained how the British divers reached the trapped group.
Whitehouse was sceptical about the prospects of pumping enough water out of the cave to allow the boys to walk to safety. He said: “They are trying to do that with pumping, but pumping a monsoon away is not that easy.”