Ask HN: Why the Hacker News community is always hating on new ideas?
Most of the times I read something with "Show HN", I see lots of hate and negative energy in the comments. These people are hungry for appreciation as they spent months building their product/tool/startup. Why don't we give them a helpful criticism while support them?
29 comments
There are plenty of online communities one can approach for general encouragement and moral support.
People choose to Show HN specifically because they know appreciation isn't automatic here. They don't just want a pat on the head, they want to know if they're doing it right.
Often, learning that your idea simply isn't valuable to others (or even worth their time) is very helpful and motivating towards future development.
I do think there's room to ask that people's so-called negative comments at least be detailed, but this goes for positive/supportive comments too, in my opinion. I don't want to just be told to keep trying, I want help thinking about what exactly to try next.
People choose to Show HN specifically because they know appreciation isn't automatic here. They don't just want a pat on the head, they want to know if they're doing it right.
Often, learning that your idea simply isn't valuable to others (or even worth their time) is very helpful and motivating towards future development.
I do think there's room to ask that people's so-called negative comments at least be detailed, but this goes for positive/supportive comments too, in my opinion. I don't want to just be told to keep trying, I want help thinking about what exactly to try next.
Firstly, I have a gripe against the word "hate". No one is hating anything, it is critiquing. The question becomes is how do you take it?
And frankly for me the new trends seems to be asking the question - "Why does HN hate X?" with X being blockchain, Tesla, etc take your pick. This kind of negative questioning leads to two conclusions:
If HN does actually hate X, then it turns into a public shaming. And no one on the internet admits they are doing anything wrong. So, good luck trying to talk sense.
If HN doesn't hate a topic, then you are implying that even simple comments are hateful. And slowly things will turn against your topic of choice.
And frankly for me the new trends seems to be asking the question - "Why does HN hate X?" with X being blockchain, Tesla, etc take your pick. This kind of negative questioning leads to two conclusions:
If HN does actually hate X, then it turns into a public shaming. And no one on the internet admits they are doing anything wrong. So, good luck trying to talk sense.
If HN doesn't hate a topic, then you are implying that even simple comments are hateful. And slowly things will turn against your topic of choice.
My perception is the opposite. Someone would honestly have to do an analysis of Show HNs to figure out whose perception is correct. My suspicion is that it doesn't skew strongly one way or the other.
It would help to give some specific examples of threads or comments you think are hateful.
The more active HN users, with the support of the moderators, are quite vigilant about downvoting or flagging nasty comments.
Can you give any examples of nasty or mean comments that appear high up in the comment thread and/or without being faded or flagged?
The whole idea of Show HN is to encourage people to build interesting things and get feedback to help them improve their project and/or skills. So, constructive criticism should be welcomed whereas meanness should be weeded out any time it appears.
If you're seeing mean comments in Show HN posts, you should flag and downvote those comments and consider reporting them to the moderators at [email protected].
The more active HN users, with the support of the moderators, are quite vigilant about downvoting or flagging nasty comments.
Can you give any examples of nasty or mean comments that appear high up in the comment thread and/or without being faded or flagged?
The whole idea of Show HN is to encourage people to build interesting things and get feedback to help them improve their project and/or skills. So, constructive criticism should be welcomed whereas meanness should be weeded out any time it appears.
If you're seeing mean comments in Show HN posts, you should flag and downvote those comments and consider reporting them to the moderators at [email protected].
Based on the first page of https://news.ycombinator.com/shownew (30 postings, 29 are "Show HN", 12 have comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548331 - both comments by the show-er.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17547703 - one non-author comment, author responded along the lines "good point" but "edge case".
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17546384 - one comment, possibly negative (a complaint about the use of the word 'certificated').
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17545446 - one non-author comment, seems like a valid critique
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544832 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544332 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544330 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541458 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541114 - I felt the one comment was negative. I have added a more positive followup.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540687 - the one comment starts "Genius"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540393 - a meta Show HN doing sentiment analysis on Show HN. Many comments. Mixed. Seems overall positive.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540210 - only one author comment
From this I conclude that 1) Most Show HNs go uncommented, even when the author tries to encourage feedback by adding a comment, and 2) it is not the case that "the HN community is always hating on new ideas."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17548331 - both comments by the show-er.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17547703 - one non-author comment, author responded along the lines "good point" but "edge case".
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17546384 - one comment, possibly negative (a complaint about the use of the word 'certificated').
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17545446 - one non-author comment, seems like a valid critique
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544832 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544332 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17544330 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541458 - only one author comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17541114 - I felt the one comment was negative. I have added a more positive followup.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540687 - the one comment starts "Genius"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540393 - a meta Show HN doing sentiment analysis on Show HN. Many comments. Mixed. Seems overall positive.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540210 - only one author comment
From this I conclude that 1) Most Show HNs go uncommented, even when the author tries to encourage feedback by adding a comment, and 2) it is not the case that "the HN community is always hating on new ideas."
I think it's due to the fact that many HN people prefer to give honest analysis/opinion, even if the truth hurts. In the long run, it's probably more useful that way to whomever posted, to get "real-life" feedback at least from a technical perspective.
The question did make me think, whether there's a small part that supports the stereotype(?) of "smart" people, or those working in IT/tech, having less empathy and emotional consideration. Kindness can be seen as unnecessary or even harmful sugar-coating..
The question did make me think, whether there's a small part that supports the stereotype(?) of "smart" people, or those working in IT/tech, having less empathy and emotional consideration. Kindness can be seen as unnecessary or even harmful sugar-coating..
I don’t read Show HN much, but I wonder how much of that hate and negativity is just plain objective criticism that it merely perceived negatively by some. On the internet, if you don’t use smileys or polite language, you sometimes seem negative even if you just make normal observations or ask logical questions. That’s just how anonymous online communication is, unfortunately.
My theory is that communities like HN and StackOverflow are a magnet for very smart people with a very direct style of communication. Yes, they sound sassy or snarky but most have no intention to be mean. They just lack most of the brain circuitry to refrain from comment or beat around the bush.
In person, voice tone, facial expression etc help convey warmth and kindness. On the internet, all you have is words (unless you go out of your way to include emoticons, gifs, etc, which are not the norm on HN). This often sounds far harsher than was intended.
Hitting the "show" link in the top nav and reading by date, the thing that struck me the most was not the "negative energy" but the lack of comments. A lot of people showing but apparently not so many paying attention. Some seem pretty nifty...
Some cultures (and subcultures) value honest, sharp critique and in others it is perceived as direct, personal attack. See the culture - cognition connection [1]
[1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb06/connection.aspx
[2] https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/17/learning-to-embrace-confli...
[1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb06/connection.aspx
[2] https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/17/learning-to-embrace-confli...
I'm not going to lie if something is badly presented or mediocre. I don't think that helps the team that made it or the quality of HN.
I don't want people to be sad or hurt either.
Sometimes it looks like something is opportunistic or scammy. In that case you flag it. If something seems clueless and doesn't seem to have a lot of work or thought behind it I hope people want to help when they level harsh criticism. In these cases people need direction and it's a case where guidance or mentorship might help. It's so important to do this with care.
I don't want people to be sad or hurt either.
Sometimes it looks like something is opportunistic or scammy. In that case you flag it. If something seems clueless and doesn't seem to have a lot of work or thought behind it I hope people want to help when they level harsh criticism. In these cases people need direction and it's a case where guidance or mentorship might help. It's so important to do this with care.
It's not hate, it's armchair criticism most of the time. People assume their engineering skills transfer over any walk of life, so they feel entitled to voice an opinion just by taking a glance at an idea/code/site/etc. You know, devs have strong opinions about lots of stuff.
It takes a somewhat special individual to be able to give helpful criticism, even if he/she thinks it's nonsense.
It takes a somewhat special individual to be able to give helpful criticism, even if he/she thinks it's nonsense.
I think a lot of the negative energy comes from that startup-frustration that many in Silicon Valley feel. Every idea sucks unless they came up with it, because nobody wants to be left out of the next Facebook, Uber, etc. That attitude permeates everything.
I can't see this. From my experience there's a lot of respect for people getting stuff to the point that they are willing to Show HN. Sometimes there's some honest critique that's really helpful if you are willing to listen.
The implication that people who complain about "negative energy" are making is that negative energy has no value or negative value; it doesn't. I'd be willing to say that skepticism has far more value than pats on the back. Children need pats on the back, not adults.
I do not like your last sentence. The implication is that that those who do not like negative criticism are immature.
There are many times when adults have an emotional need for a pat on the back. I know I have that feeling sometimes.
Here's one I came across just the other day - https://youtu.be/UPS4nxI0b9g?t=826 . "But there's no one here to pat me on the back. It sucks."
I also think there are times when negative energy has negative value.
The same person, in the video at https://youtu.be/4nqJiBRNQuw?t=855 , after many frustrating attempts at trying to make a Kit-Kat from scratch, says "I want you to know that I can accept zero criticism right now." I respect her for recognizing that need and expressing it, and for her co-workers to acknowledge that need and support her.
There are many times when adults have an emotional need for a pat on the back. I know I have that feeling sometimes.
Here's one I came across just the other day - https://youtu.be/UPS4nxI0b9g?t=826 . "But there's no one here to pat me on the back. It sucks."
I also think there are times when negative energy has negative value.
The same person, in the video at https://youtu.be/4nqJiBRNQuw?t=855 , after many frustrating attempts at trying to make a Kit-Kat from scratch, says "I want you to know that I can accept zero criticism right now." I respect her for recognizing that need and expressing it, and for her co-workers to acknowledge that need and support her.
I think it is the case unless a product is free / open source ?
I've seen several (recently too) new idea's or projects floated here that got heaps of very positive feedback.
I think your premise is flawed.
I think your premise is flawed.
resistances to change.
The negativity became dominant post-PG. Unfortunately and disappointingly.
[added] To elaborate: his regular essays were thought-provoking and challenging, in a way that generally drove HN commenters to think and contribute. Nowadays there is a discouraging excess of emoting and belittling, even though the moderators have stepped up their nudges and interventions.
[added] To elaborate: his regular essays were thought-provoking and challenging, in a way that generally drove HN commenters to think and contribute. Nowadays there is a discouraging excess of emoting and belittling, even though the moderators have stepped up their nudges and interventions.
That isn't true, the most famous example of HN negativity is Show HN: Dropbox which has been reposted quite a few times on HN since dropbox became dropbox.
Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6625306
Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6625306
Uhm... how exactly is this thread a display of "negativity"? Most of the comments are pretty supportive and the critique was mostly placed on project's communication and not yet well-defined business model, which actually made a lot of sense.
Even the famous "you can already build such a system yourself (...) by FTP, curlftpfs, SVN, CVS" comment, which was often cited later as ridiculous, actually ends with a supportive reply and overall makes sense in the context of the whole thread. Heck, even comments like "seen it before in Coda" are in fact supportive and thankful. It's all very sensible, positive and IMO only worth any particular note here if you are (quite paradoxically) blinded with hindsight ;P
Even the famous "you can already build such a system yourself (...) by FTP, curlftpfs, SVN, CVS" comment, which was often cited later as ridiculous, actually ends with a supportive reply and overall makes sense in the context of the whole thread. Heck, even comments like "seen it before in Coda" are in fact supportive and thankful. It's all very sensible, positive and IMO only worth any particular note here if you are (quite paradoxically) blinded with hindsight ;P
I agree with you. Zed Shaw wrote an essay a few months ago on this topic, at https://zedshaw.com/2018/03/25/the-billionaires-vs-brandonm/ .
> In 2007 what ... wrote is actually valid given the environment. It was a total long shot that Dropbox would go anywhere, and hell it took a whole 11 fucking years for them to IPO. Box did it in 2014 and competes rather well compared to Dropbox. But let’s break down his comments from a 2007 perspective:
I agree with Shaw's analysis as well.
> In 2007 what ... wrote is actually valid given the environment. It was a total long shot that Dropbox would go anywhere, and hell it took a whole 11 fucking years for them to IPO. Box did it in 2014 and competes rather well compared to Dropbox. But let’s break down his comments from a 2007 perspective:
I agree with Shaw's analysis as well.
First, one swallow does not a summer make...
Second, I notice you joined in July 2013. Sam Altman took over in February 2014, and PG's retirement had started earlier, so I wonder how much you experienced of HN before post-PG.
Second, I notice you joined in July 2013. Sam Altman took over in February 2014, and PG's retirement had started earlier, so I wonder how much you experienced of HN before post-PG.
Life lesson: People have hated on new ideas in every community since the dawn of time. Hacker news is not special in that regard. Just learn to deal with it by finding conviction in your ideas.
"Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received — hatred. The great creators — the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors — stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won."
Byzantine fault tolerance and zero knowledge proofs, so cool! Oh it's being done by people using it for distributed ledgers? Boooo now we hate it
I've realized I have to broaden my news intake as even this community has it's collective blind spots
I've realized I have to broaden my news intake as even this community has it's collective blind spots
Check out the top post on EthTrader, it's about Sir Isaac Newton losing money in a scam. HN is not the only ones with this opinion
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/8zamjw/sir_isaac...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/8zamjw/sir_isaac...