The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burned Through $2B(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burned Through $2B
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
112 comments
I don't share the negative sentiments expressed by others in response to your question. I think things have changed significantly for the better. I'll leave you with these two images - you can decide for yourself if anything has changed:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in...
Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m...
Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better.
You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in...
Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m...
Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better.
You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.
These two images don't answer the "if it's just a facade with air conditioning" question.
This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights).
Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.
This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights).
Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.
Neither do those images show severe lack of hamburgers. Transporting cows can and has lead to lynchings.
I'm on an astrophotography kick lately, so the only thing I see is "increase in light pollution". So goes progress, but it would be neat if some places found ways to advance without also leaving behind the vision of the stars that used to fascinate and inspire so many people.
Really impressive, particularly growth of all those around Bangkok. Is Modi effect truly this far flung, or is NASA image just of higher resolution now showing lots of smaller dots?
Considering electricity consumption growth rate is still same or maybe a little slower then the decade before I don't see much of an achievement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India#De...
Considering electricity consumption growth rate is still same or maybe a little slower then the decade before I don't see much of an achievement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India#De...
Looking at the comparison for Kerala, I really feel sad and worried. It doesn't look like much improved for my state during this period. And everyone likes to talk about Kerala being number one!
You probably shouldn't. I'm in a similar situation and although back home there are all these fancy cafes, relaxed and familiar environments and great people, the significant differences become apparent only in crisis.
When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing.
The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.
When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing.
The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.
How is the situation in Kerala different from what happened in Peurto Rico or Houston?
Isn't getting a Hard Rock Cafe just a more upscaled version of having McDonald's move in your town?
Considering how India started 6-7 decades ago, after centuries of colonial rule and impoverishment, merely having McDonalds would be a great difference.
Yeah, but neither of these create a community where you'd want to come back. It's a sign of economical progress, but is it what makes you enjoy the life in the country?
Isn't the normal process: economic development -> social change? Economic development can happen within 5-10-15 years, while the second one usually takes 2-3 generations, so 40-60 years.
> More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.
Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.
Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.
Nothing has changed. The govt. has gotten better at media manipulation, and/or the media has decided it is easier to get into bed with the govt. Reliance Jio Institute has been declared an "institute of eminence" on par with IISc, and above many IITs. The industrialists hailed demonetisation. Ordinary citizens have few opportunities to enter the stock market, since it is inundated with foreign institutional investors, who may withdraw money at the drop of a hat, thus increasing volatility. There is no critical analysis allowed or taken seriously. Pre-2016, I was depressed at the turn of events. Post-Trump, Post-Brexit, I just think this is the new normal for the planet. Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.
That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.
That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.
> Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.
Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)
Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)
To be fair, being from a Russian family and having re-watched quite a few news programmes from the 90s I was amazed at how liberal the media was back then. I did not expect that.
It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.
It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.
IITs attract the best students because of the opportunity it provides. But on its own is it know for it's academics? Do they carry out high calibre research?
I'd say they are better than Reliance Jio institute when it comes to high calibre research.
That does not say much.
Sure, you're right. My original point was to point out the hypocrisy of the government policy. But you have raised a related point about IITs.
Aside from being underfunded (in comparison to global standards) there are systemic issues with IITs which make it underperform in research - first, they were designed as undergraduate institutes. The administrators constantly harangue, and block the ways of the colleagues who want to do research - for example, disallowing travel during the semester etc.
More importantly, the best PG students in India do not go to the IITs. They go to IISc or abroad. It is the PG students who do most of the research in a university, not the UG students.
Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university.
When faculty systematically underperform in research over 60 years, when many of them were good researchers before they join the IITs, and many of them continue to be good researchers after they leave the IIT system, we need to rethink.
Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time, travel freely, and spend very little time on teaching/administration. You can't have your legs in both the boats.
Aside from being underfunded (in comparison to global standards) there are systemic issues with IITs which make it underperform in research - first, they were designed as undergraduate institutes. The administrators constantly harangue, and block the ways of the colleagues who want to do research - for example, disallowing travel during the semester etc.
More importantly, the best PG students in India do not go to the IITs. They go to IISc or abroad. It is the PG students who do most of the research in a university, not the UG students.
Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university.
When faculty systematically underperform in research over 60 years, when many of them were good researchers before they join the IITs, and many of them continue to be good researchers after they leave the IIT system, we need to rethink.
Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time, travel freely, and spend very little time on teaching/administration. You can't have your legs in both the boats.
> Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time
God no. This is exactly the problem that most undergraduate campuses in the US are grappling with right now. Pedagogy (you know, the purported reason for the existence of universities when they were first established) is taking a backseat to research, with students not deriving nearly the value from college that they should be. Most newly-minted PhD candidates want to create rigorous research programs, even at small liberal arts colleges, much to the detriment of those who matriculate (and who consequently accumulate ludicrous amounts of debt).
It would be much better for academia to have an honest conversation with itself and note that some people want to teach while others want to do research, and send the research-inclined to non-teaching institutes like IAS, LLNL, the Broad Institute, etc and the teaching-inclined to work with undergraduates. The outliers who fall in the middle of the Venn diagram can choose for themselves which direction they want to go.
It also would help if workshops to develop pedagogical techniques weren't almost universally optional for grad students and the ones who do engage in them get looks for wanting to do them instead of doing research... this may be just an impression on my part, but I really felt like grad students I've encountered who prioritize teaching over publications get marginalized.
God no. This is exactly the problem that most undergraduate campuses in the US are grappling with right now. Pedagogy (you know, the purported reason for the existence of universities when they were first established) is taking a backseat to research, with students not deriving nearly the value from college that they should be. Most newly-minted PhD candidates want to create rigorous research programs, even at small liberal arts colleges, much to the detriment of those who matriculate (and who consequently accumulate ludicrous amounts of debt).
It would be much better for academia to have an honest conversation with itself and note that some people want to teach while others want to do research, and send the research-inclined to non-teaching institutes like IAS, LLNL, the Broad Institute, etc and the teaching-inclined to work with undergraduates. The outliers who fall in the middle of the Venn diagram can choose for themselves which direction they want to go.
It also would help if workshops to develop pedagogical techniques weren't almost universally optional for grad students and the ones who do engage in them get looks for wanting to do them instead of doing research... this may be just an impression on my part, but I really felt like grad students I've encountered who prioritize teaching over publications get marginalized.
When you change your objectives, you change your work.
IITs are all about placements and big salary pay days. It works that way because the alumni want to preserve the value of that name on their resume, only way they can do that is continue to pay obscene salaries to their own kind. So that when they go out looking for jobs, the same thing can work in their case too.
Once you arrive here, all questions on research or doing good work et all go out of the window. You are just about marketing gas, advertising you own legend.
A few start up founders even told me they avoid hiring IITian for this very reason. They act like they are above everything, nothing you pay is enough, they always think some work is beneath them. And yeah barely stay before a project completes.
Lastly, the only thing IITians train their whole academic career is for being good at interviews and exams. That's understandable, because they only thing they ever do all life is hop jobs.
IITs are all about placements and big salary pay days. It works that way because the alumni want to preserve the value of that name on their resume, only way they can do that is continue to pay obscene salaries to their own kind. So that when they go out looking for jobs, the same thing can work in their case too.
Once you arrive here, all questions on research or doing good work et all go out of the window. You are just about marketing gas, advertising you own legend.
A few start up founders even told me they avoid hiring IITian for this very reason. They act like they are above everything, nothing you pay is enough, they always think some work is beneath them. And yeah barely stay before a project completes.
Lastly, the only thing IITians train their whole academic career is for being good at interviews and exams. That's understandable, because they only thing they ever do all life is hop jobs.
"Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university."
Stanford, Carnegie Mellion, Harvard, MIT, Caltech are all "teaching universities". Most professors do research along side their teaching. Courses in India are outdated everywhere. If research is encouraged the quality of education will definitely go up.
Stanford, Carnegie Mellion, Harvard, MIT, Caltech are all "teaching universities". Most professors do research along side their teaching. Courses in India are outdated everywhere. If research is encouraged the quality of education will definitely go up.
It's to be mentioned that the Reliance Jio Institute is a proposed one and doesn't exist yet.
Please do expand on that last sentence :-) what are the general principles you see?
Those who don't think the way you do are not "aggressively stupid", they just have other interests. That kind of dismissal doesn't help anybody.
Personally I see it as an existential observation rather than a dismissal.
On the whole, the actions of both the voting public in many countries, let alone the politicians that they vote for, do seem to be displaying an increasingly aggressive level of stupidity. Or possibly, if not stupidity, one could more accurately call it apathy.
On the whole, the actions of both the voting public in many countries, let alone the politicians that they vote for, do seem to be displaying an increasingly aggressive level of stupidity. Or possibly, if not stupidity, one could more accurately call it apathy.
Think of it the other way: for some people, the public has voted very stupidly for a long time, and now they are starting to get straight.
And yet those people are people whose core beliefs - or at least, the manifestation of those beliefs into policy - are, for the most part, largely objectively wrong.
Or politicians are starting to deliver on their stupid promises.
there's no better time to come back. Do come. Its about what you can create in the world's largest democracy.
Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?
come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.
Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?
come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.
The difference is that the Americans, the Brits, and the Chinese can leave any time they want. I've talked to a few Indians and that tried to defend the mob that killed some guy for allegedly coming beef. More embarrassingly, they defended the police for taking a sample of the questionable meat for lab testing to check if it was beef.
I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef.
Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef.
Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
Defending lynching(done for whatever reason) is sickening.
However, I don't see how that is a reason for someone "not coming back to India". Not all people from the majority religion have ganged up and decided to lynch Muslims.
India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.
> Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
What is the rationale behind this argument? The Indian state doesn't discriminate against people based on their religion or color. I am not denying criminal acts against Muslims. Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43496017
However, I don't see how that is a reason for someone "not coming back to India". Not all people from the majority religion have ganged up and decided to lynch Muslims.
India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.
> Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
What is the rationale behind this argument? The Indian state doesn't discriminate against people based on their religion or color. I am not denying criminal acts against Muslims. Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43496017
> The Indian state doesn't discriminate against people based on their religion or color.
In theory that is correct. But states have the luxury of being economical with the effort they put in. The spurt in beef related lynching is a phenomenon of the current government and has been going on in a while.
> Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.
I assume that statement of yours is based on some knowledge. How many convictions so far ?
I can give examples where the accused got immediate bail layed out on a red carpet.
In theory that is correct. But states have the luxury of being economical with the effort they put in. The spurt in beef related lynching is a phenomenon of the current government and has been going on in a while.
> Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.
I assume that statement of yours is based on some knowledge. How many convictions so far ?
I can give examples where the accused got immediate bail layed out on a red carpet.
Why wouldn't the police take a sample of the meat for lab testing and evidence?
It would seem to be a crucial piece of motive for the mob crime; it's also unlikely that the man killed was solely responsible for the entire chain of killing, butchering, and transporting the finished beef product, so other people may be implicated as well, etc.
It would seem to be a crucial piece of motive for the mob crime; it's also unlikely that the man killed was solely responsible for the entire chain of killing, butchering, and transporting the finished beef product, so other people may be implicated as well, etc.
Why would it matter whether the meat was beef or not with respect to motive? The crowd thought it was beef and beat him based on that belief; they didn't test the meat first.
WRT motive, the fact of whether it was or wasn't beef when introduced into evidence may prove to be exculpatory (if the finders of fact decide that it was justified) or may prove to be further damning (if the finders of facts decide that it was pre-meditated). I wouldn't want the police on the scene to be in the business of deciding what possibly relevant facts in the case will prove to be crucial. Collect, catalog, and preserve the evidence as best you reasonably can in a major crime case, and let the court system figure out what's relevant.
Additionally, if it was beef, there's a reason to look upstream to where the dead man got the beef and chase down those leads.
What's the external/societal cost to them taking the meat to the lab? It's not like the police not taking the beef to the lab will suddenly summon the cow back to life nor that they took the beef and tested it by eating it.
(I'm assuming from context that beef for consumption is locally illegal. That seems a safe assumption.)
Additionally, if it was beef, there's a reason to look upstream to where the dead man got the beef and chase down those leads.
What's the external/societal cost to them taking the meat to the lab? It's not like the police not taking the beef to the lab will suddenly summon the cow back to life nor that they took the beef and tested it by eating it.
(I'm assuming from context that beef for consumption is locally illegal. That seems a safe assumption.)
It is not illegal and even if it were it does not, in any lawful society, justify extrajudicial torture and/or murder.
I don't support vigilantes and neither do I agree with the imposition of religious views in violation of civil rights.
That being said, you are wrong. It was illegal.
Lynching happened in UP. And sale, transport, and slaughter of beef is illegal there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Dadri_mob_lynching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India#Utta...
The police should take the samples for analysis as they did. It is the procedure I expect from them in this case.
If a bank robber was killed during a bank heist, you would still investigate who planned the robbery wouldn't you?
That being said, you are wrong. It was illegal.
Lynching happened in UP. And sale, transport, and slaughter of beef is illegal there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Dadri_mob_lynching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India#Utta...
The police should take the samples for analysis as they did. It is the procedure I expect from them in this case.
If a bank robber was killed during a bank heist, you would still investigate who planned the robbery wouldn't you?
OK, then what is your objection to the police taking a sample of the meat to the lab for testing?!
It seems no different than taking any other piece of crime scene or crime-related evidence to me.
It seems no different than taking any other piece of crime scene or crime-related evidence to me.
> OK, then what is your objection to the police taking a sample of the meat to the lab for testing?!
>It seems no different than taking any other piece of crime scene or crime-related evidence to me.
It has the same vibe as checking the skirt length of a rape victim, or checking into the sexual history of someone beaten up for being gay, just to be sure they really were gay.
It has the same vibe as checking the skirt length of a rape victim, or checking into the sexual history of someone beaten up for being gay, just to be sure they really were gay.
Wearing short skirts is not a crime, but slaughtering cows, transporting and selling beef is (in that state).
I do not agree with the laws, but the police should dutifully follow the laws.
I do not agree with the laws, but the police should dutifully follow the laws.
> I do not agree with the laws, but the police should dutifully follow the laws.
> India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.
So the police is spread thin and you want them to go after dead people for allegedly eating beef? What kind of mental gymnastics do you do?
> India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.
So the police is spread thin and you want them to go after dead people for allegedly eating beef? What kind of mental gymnastics do you do?
Besides the murder, the police might also be interested in finding the illegal slaughterhouses or beef sellers.
Is following the law mental gymnastics? Should I curse the police for following procedures and investigating crimes, even if I disagree with them?
What if police decided that it was spread too thin, and did not stop me being lynched?
Is following the law mental gymnastics? Should I curse the police for following procedures and investigating crimes, even if I disagree with them?
What if police decided that it was spread too thin, and did not stop me being lynched?
What's this story ?
googling for "india death beef" gives you quite a few similar stories to choose from.
Then I don't understand "I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef." If it's forbidden in that state, where's the problem with sampling ?
> Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?
From what I can tell from afar, access to courts in India is mixed at best. A constitutional guarantee only goes as far as its enforced/enforcable.
From what I can tell from afar, access to courts in India is mixed at best. A constitutional guarantee only goes as far as its enforced/enforcable.
>>I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.
That's entirely your decision to make.
But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure.
But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense.
I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.
That's entirely your decision to make.
But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure.
But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense.
I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.
>this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning.
In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress.
If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse.
(Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)
In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress.
If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse.
(Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)
I think another hard thing is that your expectations will change the longer you live in the US (and as things change in the US as well), so what would have been a remarkable improvement to you before might be "not enough".
Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.
Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.
Why do you feel the US is better in this respect? The US has several other obvious advantages compared to India, but equality of wealth distribution and lack of crony capitalism don't seem to be among them.
You think the US has wealth inequality! In India its common for upper middle class people to have several full-time servents. Not only that, they are a whole separate class of people. They are treated like servents, not like employees.
India is far more unequal than the US actually and crony capitalism is also much worse here. I've lived in the US for 8 years and would be bang in the middle class there, I have 3 full time house helps which I couldn't even think about in the US.
Sounds to me like two indian brothers realized that a likely result of an arbitration would indirectly bankrupt their public companies so they started funneling money to a person they trust to hold onto it for them. just my 2c
This makes sense. This cult has been on a real estate buying spree near their HQ. Even threatening farmers who refuse to sell.
And here I thought that "Wild Wild Country" on Netflix was too crazy to be true and something like that would not happen again. (*fixed typos)
When in mood search for Asaram, Rampal, Nirmal Baba, Sant Ram Rahim. These are prominent Godmans with millions of followers and 100s of million of dollars worth of empires prosecuted in last few years for charges including rape, fraud, murder etc. Courts now has grown some balls to take action against these people, despite risk of mob violence. These Godman's had patronage from all political parties as they control too big a vote bank. Some of these like Nirmal baba, Sathya Sai baba are so comical and ridiculous, Borat will have trouble spoofing them.
In India, people trust gurus and babas even for problems like pollution, water conservation, economy and healthcare. I have seen software engineers, working in top tier US product companies, who believe India had planes, nuclears 1000s of years back.
In India, people trust gurus and babas even for problems like pollution, water conservation, economy and healthcare. I have seen software engineers, working in top tier US product companies, who believe India had planes, nuclears 1000s of years back.
Trust me, you haven't seen anything at all.
It's funny that people are downvoting you for your manner, but frankly speaking that's exactly the reaction I had to the post.
"Too good to be true"? You're joking, right?
There's loads of people in the world with a high enough status, but who still are gullible enough because they never really had any deep relationships. Be it friends, lovers or family.
That's exactly the kind of weaknesses upon which people build religions.
"Too good to be true"? You're joking, right?
There's loads of people in the world with a high enough status, but who still are gullible enough because they never really had any deep relationships. Be it friends, lovers or family.
That's exactly the kind of weaknesses upon which people build religions.
To me, the unique aspect of that docu was the "banality of.." perspective.
About from a quirky sexual liberalism, the teachings were standard fare for a religion. The phenomenon was also unremarkable, the the grand scheme of things. The world is full of holy men, holy places, masters and devotees. It always has been. Any religion with a an origin story features a story like this. The old Hebrew/jehovist religion centred around prophet-leaders. Moses was a holy man, along with the other prophets. Jesus was such a holy man. Mohammed. Budha. Zoroaster, probably. The founders of most old catholic orders... You might even include communist "holy men" or other secular/political movements in that overall group.
Basically, we can just take it as a given that holy men with an extremely devoted group of devotees will emerge here and there.
At that point it's up to a St. Peter, or a Ma Anand Sheila to do something with it.
Just before wild wild country begins, America experienced the Jonestown bloodbath. Its definitely a history that repeats.
About from a quirky sexual liberalism, the teachings were standard fare for a religion. The phenomenon was also unremarkable, the the grand scheme of things. The world is full of holy men, holy places, masters and devotees. It always has been. Any religion with a an origin story features a story like this. The old Hebrew/jehovist religion centred around prophet-leaders. Moses was a holy man, along with the other prophets. Jesus was such a holy man. Mohammed. Budha. Zoroaster, probably. The founders of most old catholic orders... You might even include communist "holy men" or other secular/political movements in that overall group.
Basically, we can just take it as a given that holy men with an extremely devoted group of devotees will emerge here and there.
At that point it's up to a St. Peter, or a Ma Anand Sheila to do something with it.
Just before wild wild country begins, America experienced the Jonestown bloodbath. Its definitely a history that repeats.
Re: Buddha, a rich man bankrupted himself in order to donate a huge park to the Sangha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetavana#Donation_of_Jetavana
* Wild Wild Country
What’s the deal with these Gurus, and how can they have millions of followers? They are simply cult leaders and fraudsters.
It's not that simple. Indian societies are ancient and have deep flaws. Usually involving social division, superstition, oppression of some kind or the other. In such situations Spiritual gurus saying the right thing in a sincere manner manage to build a large following over a period of years. The need for such "therapists" is real and cuts across income levels.
Eventually though as the guru's following explodes, big money comes into play, and money corrupts so you end up with the gurus or their followers exploiting their situations for profit or worse.
Eventually though as the guru's following explodes, big money comes into play, and money corrupts so you end up with the gurus or their followers exploiting their situations for profit or worse.
Charismatic narcissists can manipulate gullible people the world over.
Any indian who has some understanding of veda and caste system will immediately identify the problem here. It is run by singhs and singhs are not hindus by that i mean they discard varna system, vedas and caste system. The current government BJP is a strong religious organization with Brahmins in key positions who have lots to lose if caste system is abolished. The move by the indian BJP government is to progress hindutva ideology.
It is interesting to see Indians talking of themselves and India as a separate entity. Now, I am fine with people moving out of the country and I can understand the appeal. A lot of problems in India have been long solved in the west and there are problems which are unique to India. But it is hypocritical to blame the ills on "India" as if it exists without it's people. Citizens make a country and they are equally responsible whether they like it or not.
>It is interesting to see Indians talking of themselves and India as a separate entity.
Apropos of that, I have an Indian acquaintance who is an activist, focusing on women's rights and poverty. She's told a couple of stories stories about going into tiny, remote villages in India and telling people about their basic rights under the law, only to be asked "what is India?" and having to explain that the place these people live is called "India".
Apropos of that, I have an Indian acquaintance who is an activist, focusing on women's rights and poverty. She's told a couple of stories stories about going into tiny, remote villages in India and telling people about their basic rights under the law, only to be asked "what is India?" and having to explain that the place these people live is called "India".
Probably because India is the name in english. It is called Bharat in Hindi, other names in other vernaculars.
This is a naive comment. By far and large what a few individuals can do is extremely limited compared to institutions or large companies. Belonging to a country is not equal to having power to change things. For example, even if your city think they need an airport, they cant build one by themselves out of nothing. Infrastructure and anything related to long term investment of resources is completely out of reach of individuals.
Not totally sure I understand your point, but I think that I don't agree with this at all.
In any particular country, each citizen, of course, plays their own tiny part, but ultimately, its truly a tiny part.
For the vast majority of people, they make better decisions thinking about the path of a country as an impersonal force that they can react and respond to, but have functionally no actual control over
when you aggregate the political will of 800 million people, it is largely an impersonal force
In any particular country, each citizen, of course, plays their own tiny part, but ultimately, its truly a tiny part.
For the vast majority of people, they make better decisions thinking about the path of a country as an impersonal force that they can react and respond to, but have functionally no actual control over
when you aggregate the political will of 800 million people, it is largely an impersonal force
Aggregate political will is a feature of democracy. The fact that any single person on his/her own wish cannot make a big impact change is how a democracy is designed to work. For a democracy to work people need to take active part in the political process including things like consensus building. Changes start at grassroot level and is usually localised. You would have more impact at your constituency level than at state or national level.
But the fact is that significant number of people do not even fulfill their most basic duty of voting.
That's the myth of democracy, yes. Glad to see there are still a few true believers. But in practice, 1/10^9 is the same as zero.
>But in practice, 1/10^9 is the same as zero
Sadly, it's not even that - we don't have a popular vote, so not all votes have the same weight :(
Sadly, it's not even that - we don't have a popular vote, so not all votes have the same weight :(
> Sadly, it's not even that - we don't have a popular vote, so not all votes have the same weight
The vast majority of elective public offices in the US are directly elected by popular vote.
The vast majority of elective public offices in the US are directly elected by popular vote.
Even when they are, that doesn't mean the people electing them have equal power. The 40,000,000 people of California elect two senators. The 500,000 people of Wyoming also elect two senators. A person in Wyoming literally has 80 times as much influence over the Senate as a person in California.
And even in the House, where at least some effort is made to scale the number of representatives by population, California has only 53 representatives to Wyoming's 1, which still means each Wyoming resident has 1.5 times as much influence over the House as each California resident.
And even in the House, where at least some effort is made to scale the number of representatives by population, California has only 53 representatives to Wyoming's 1, which still means each Wyoming resident has 1.5 times as much influence over the House as each California resident.
> But the fact is that significant number of people do not even fulfill their most basic duty of voting.
The most basic duty is participating in civic discussion; voting is secondary. One of the problems with American democracy is the idea that voting is the most fundamental mechanism of participation.
The most basic duty is participating in civic discussion; voting is secondary. One of the problems with American democracy is the idea that voting is the most fundamental mechanism of participation.
It's a little bit unrelated but the ugly Indian explains a bit about exactly this issue Indians seem to have, in a interesting Ted talk.
https://youtu.be/tf1VA5jqmRo
https://youtu.be/tf1VA5jqmRo
I've never heard of The Ugly Indian before and your comment came across as totally shocking to say the the least. So relieved when I saw it was his name (or the name of the movement?)
While in general it's true, and probably applies to India, I'd like to point out a major gap in your analysis: external factors.
North Korea is basically propped up by China. If China would stop backing the regime, either the local citizens or intervention from South Korea could make the regime collapse overnight.
Eastern Europe had regimes enforced by the USSR. Same story. See 1989 (luckily for these countries).
North Korea is basically propped up by China. If China would stop backing the regime, either the local citizens or intervention from South Korea could make the regime collapse overnight.
Eastern Europe had regimes enforced by the USSR. Same story. See 1989 (luckily for these countries).
Not sure about that. The regime seems to tick along with next to nothing. Pushing that to literally nothing might not make much difference. They would just move from 95% blackmarket to 100.
I don’t think it’s unique to India unfortunately. I feel this is also strong in the US where the « people » and the « government » always seem very separated and opposing each other. I am also annoyed by the characterization of « government land » rather than « public land ». Not sure if the low turnout in US elections is the cause or consequence of that separation.
As someone who has spent a majority of their formative years outside India and always felt out of place when I lived there, I definitely see India as a separate entity. The only really Indian thing about me is that I hold the passport.
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Dangerous logic. We may have to blame americans for thier country too.
> Citizens make a country and they are equally responsible whether they like it or not.
Can't agree with equal responsibility. Children, for example, are not.
Can't agree with equal responsibility. Children, for example, are not.
These children grow up to be adults, who are by extension also not responsible. No one is "responsible" for these impersonal processes.
Yeah colonialism and Britain's control, exploitation and distortion of India over 300 years has nothing to do with India's problems.
"The West" "solved" a bunch of its problems as it created problems in the rest of the world.
"The West" "solved" a bunch of its problems as it created problems in the rest of the world.
Empires have been doing what empires do since the beginning of recorded history. The West is no exception in this respect.
1. I was responding to test001only putting the blame on Indians.
2. The West claims to be enlightened and progressive. Essentially having a manifest moral destiny.
3. Men have been sexist through most if not all of recorded history, treating women as lessor beings if not property. Does that excuse today's men?
2. The West claims to be enlightened and progressive. Essentially having a manifest moral destiny.
3. Men have been sexist through most if not all of recorded history, treating women as lessor beings if not property. Does that excuse today's men?
2. No, it doesn't. No such thing as "the West". I live in a European country. We never made any such claim. "Manifest destiny" is specifically American. The expression itself is nonsensical in other languages.
3. No, they haven't. Obviously, male and female roles have been socially differentiated over history, but that derived from biology. The impact of biology has been lessened with industrialization, naturally leading to new opportunities for women.
3. No, they haven't. Obviously, male and female roles have been socially differentiated over history, but that derived from biology. The impact of biology has been lessened with industrialization, naturally leading to new opportunities for women.
Side note, has anybody read the TOS at bloomberg? Along with getting violation notices? I MUST allow JS?
https://imgur.com/a/hsTANvy
Also, their entire TOS looks like one of those shrink wrap licenses. I feel like people really don't understand how the internet works, and in the long run they are simply going to break it if the law dictates what software I have to run or not run to view a website.
EDIT: Link to TOS: https://www.bloomberg.com/notices/tos/
Really guys, this sort of stuff should not stand, the idea that they own the ability for you to link to their site is hideous. Even if they are "granting" that ability today allowing people to front like they have that power should be stopped. Otherwise next generations will just obey because "it's in the tos", "it's the law".
https://imgur.com/a/hsTANvy
Also, their entire TOS looks like one of those shrink wrap licenses. I feel like people really don't understand how the internet works, and in the long run they are simply going to break it if the law dictates what software I have to run or not run to view a website.
EDIT: Link to TOS: https://www.bloomberg.com/notices/tos/
Really guys, this sort of stuff should not stand, the idea that they own the ability for you to link to their site is hideous. Even if they are "granting" that ability today allowing people to front like they have that power should be stopped. Otherwise next generations will just obey because "it's in the tos", "it's the law".
Isn't the 'you need JS' in order to let the captcha work?
I believe I have to whitelist certain scripts in uMatrix before those things work (or even appear!).
edit: also the website just works for me even without scripts. I think your IP has triggered a flood warning leading the captcha and for that to work you need JS (which makes sense).
I believe I have to whitelist certain scripts in uMatrix before those things work (or even appear!).
edit: also the website just works for me even without scripts. I think your IP has triggered a flood warning leading the captcha and for that to work you need JS (which makes sense).
Regardless of why I was interrupted, the TOS is total crap.
As they typically are. Hence why they so rarely actually get tested in a court of law
Even if it won't really hold up in a court of law I feel like the notion is to
set some sort of precedence that gives it validity the logger it sits there
unchecked. This is the sort of thing that shapes the next generations of judges,
lawyers, juries and law makers. Over time sentiment will change and we will be
stuck with "well it has always been this way right?".
Original title: The Billionaires and The Guru: How a Family Burned Through $2 Billion
The original title is a much better title, not sure why it was changed... This is more so a story about the brothers and the spiritual leader who apparently took a bunch of cash from them, not about abuses of India's ruling class
Now it's
> How an Indian family lost $2 Billion
I think we're on the 3rd title.
> How an Indian family lost $2 Billion
I think we're on the 3rd title.
More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.