Ask HN: Getting to onsites, but consistently failing
40 comments
Interviewing is a crapshoot. Often your performance is irrelevant unless it's an outlier (good or bad). What you describe is why coding portions of the interview are terrible to use. Ultimately it comes down to whether your panel believes your experience is similar enough to theirs to make them feel comfortable. It's simply unreasonable to expect to be able to adequately judge the results of years of experience over the course of an hour or three or four.
Also, companies think they can afford to be selective. This tells me that companies don't actually have a development talent shortage to face, or else that they believe any such shortage is only applicable to other companies, or else they vastly overestimate the appeal they have to the labor market.
Also, companies think they can afford to be selective. This tells me that companies don't actually have a development talent shortage to face, or else that they believe any such shortage is only applicable to other companies, or else they vastly overestimate the appeal they have to the labor market.
> Also, companies think they can afford to be selective. This tells me that companies don't actually have a development talent shortage to face, or else that they believe any such shortage is only applicable to other companies, or else they vastly overestimate the appeal they have to the labor market.
This. I keep my eye on the market, deal with recruiters all the time and I've seen too many companies that are always looking. I've done interviews in such companies only to get contacted by another recruiter with exactly the same role and exact copy of job spec some 2 years later. I'd like to know reasons why, but I can only speculate. Could be that management is pushing for more developers, but incumbent developers don't want any, so they sabotage all the candidates. I got my previous 2 jobs because the companies were desperate - single interview and an offer on the same day. As far as I'm concerned there are just too many companies out there that are just wasting time.
This. I keep my eye on the market, deal with recruiters all the time and I've seen too many companies that are always looking. I've done interviews in such companies only to get contacted by another recruiter with exactly the same role and exact copy of job spec some 2 years later. I'd like to know reasons why, but I can only speculate. Could be that management is pushing for more developers, but incumbent developers don't want any, so they sabotage all the candidates. I got my previous 2 jobs because the companies were desperate - single interview and an offer on the same day. As far as I'm concerned there are just too many companies out there that are just wasting time.
I have been telling myself this, but it's small comfort. :) I am aware that interviews generally have about a 1/5 success rate overall. Since I've done "only" 6 onsites, that means that I should have an expected 74% chance of a job offer so far. I would be truly worried if I had failed 10 or 11 onsites in a row. As of now, I'm just... concerned. :/
A mistake I used to make: not preparing for the onsite interview.
Things like...
* Researching your interviewers beforehand. I start with LinkedIn. It can be useful to know if they have just joined the company, or have been there for years.
* Making sure you have some good stories to tell about your most recent role, what things _you_ did/influenced/changed. Practicing them with a friend or spouse.
* Being physically prepared for the interview, getting a good night's sleep beforehand, arriving at the office in plenty of time so you're not flustered. I aim for >30 minutes early. Don't actually go into the office until 5-10 minutes before the interview is scheduled to start though.
* Finding out about the dress code at the company, and dressing accordingly or, if in doubt, slightly (but not too much!) smarter than the dress code you expect.
* Being ready to give a good handshake - warm, dry, and politely firm. If you notice your hand is cold and clammy beforehand, sit on it for a bit!
* Making sure you are polite and courteous to everyone you meet in the office. Maintain your posture. If you normally chew gum, don't. Assume that the interview starts the moment you set food inside the building.
* Be ready to appear fascinated and interested in the job role. Have some smart questions to ask at the end when they say "any questions?"
Things like...
* Researching your interviewers beforehand. I start with LinkedIn. It can be useful to know if they have just joined the company, or have been there for years.
* Making sure you have some good stories to tell about your most recent role, what things _you_ did/influenced/changed. Practicing them with a friend or spouse.
* Being physically prepared for the interview, getting a good night's sleep beforehand, arriving at the office in plenty of time so you're not flustered. I aim for >30 minutes early. Don't actually go into the office until 5-10 minutes before the interview is scheduled to start though.
* Finding out about the dress code at the company, and dressing accordingly or, if in doubt, slightly (but not too much!) smarter than the dress code you expect.
* Being ready to give a good handshake - warm, dry, and politely firm. If you notice your hand is cold and clammy beforehand, sit on it for a bit!
* Making sure you are polite and courteous to everyone you meet in the office. Maintain your posture. If you normally chew gum, don't. Assume that the interview starts the moment you set food inside the building.
* Be ready to appear fascinated and interested in the job role. Have some smart questions to ask at the end when they say "any questions?"
>good handshake - warm, dry, and politely firm
Anyone else suffer from seasonal (autumn, spring) palm sweat? This is like my single biggest issue during these periods.
Anyone else suffer from seasonal (autumn, spring) palm sweat? This is like my single biggest issue during these periods.
Buy highly concentrated antiperspirant. The stuff you are supposed to apply once a week to your underarms. Use it on your hands nightly until you stop sweating.
Interviewing is a game of numbers and luck. I know it is slim consolation. But I did 15 onsites, before landing on my dream job. Was rejected from all these onsites, even though I thought I did fairly well in most of them. It was depressing and I lost a lot of confidence during the process. But eventually it worked out. So, I guess, my advice would be to keep going at it. Keep improving incrementally with each interview, but I think you are doing all the right things and will eventually get an offer.
All else being equal, you want to come up with ways to sound excited about the position without coming across as a kiss-ass. If I really want the gig (or if I’m desperate) I try to ask questions and subtly guide the conversation in ways that show I’ve done my homework and have thought about the company’s / department’s unique challenges etc. and how my interests, experience, and career goals align. It’s delicate, but beyond a certain baseline of competence it’s about making them like you. That gets tricky because it’s so easy to show desperation which will sink you. People like you to be interested in them and then they magically like you back. Ask lots of questions and get them to talk about themselves.
I’m going to skip the whole speech about how you want to find a good fit or else you’ll be unhappy because … uh … money.
I’m going to skip the whole speech about how you want to find a good fit or else you’ll be unhappy because … uh … money.
By the way, I have over twenty years experience. I had maybe 4 onsites last cycle, and yeah rejection is a real drag on your confidence.
Based on your being in the Bay Area, I feel your problem may actually be competition, and you should apply to employers that don't look as trendy, don't offer as many perks, or are earlier stage startups and that are more likely to be a little more desperate.
For onsites employers will invite often a bunch of people (give themselves opportunities) and they always, always have the secret hope to get someone who is really overqualified for the job. In a hot market it's likelier they do.
Otherwise, often in onsites the questions asked will be more free-form (including "do you have any questions") and it's expected that the candidate will show curiosity and knowledge outside their narrow range of expertise. For example, if asked something you don't know, say "I don't know, but if I had to do it at work, I would find out through doing X". (Something that has also worked for me is straight up asking the interviewer. "I don't remember if a left join or inner join is better in that case though. For my personal education, which do you think?") You need to look like a self-starter for most onsites, and that behavioral test is more important than the answers to the exact questions.
Interviewers tend to telegraph (especially in person) the answers they want. So if you're asked how you would design a component, and the interviewer looks impatient and says "hmmm, what about X though?" or is constantly asking you follow up questions, maybe fidgeting, it means they have a specific answer in mind you haven't given. And in my experience in that case, you can't just stick to your previous line of thought when that happens. You can either "throw things out and see what sticks", where you start detailing the suggestion that generates the best nonverbal feedback, or you can refuse to play the game and say look, I'm feeling I would do X because of my experience with Y. It looks like you have a specific answer in mind that was maybe informed by a different experience. Do you want to share it and we can talk about my thought process?" (This only works for open ended questions)
For onsites employers will invite often a bunch of people (give themselves opportunities) and they always, always have the secret hope to get someone who is really overqualified for the job. In a hot market it's likelier they do.
Otherwise, often in onsites the questions asked will be more free-form (including "do you have any questions") and it's expected that the candidate will show curiosity and knowledge outside their narrow range of expertise. For example, if asked something you don't know, say "I don't know, but if I had to do it at work, I would find out through doing X". (Something that has also worked for me is straight up asking the interviewer. "I don't remember if a left join or inner join is better in that case though. For my personal education, which do you think?") You need to look like a self-starter for most onsites, and that behavioral test is more important than the answers to the exact questions.
Interviewers tend to telegraph (especially in person) the answers they want. So if you're asked how you would design a component, and the interviewer looks impatient and says "hmmm, what about X though?" or is constantly asking you follow up questions, maybe fidgeting, it means they have a specific answer in mind you haven't given. And in my experience in that case, you can't just stick to your previous line of thought when that happens. You can either "throw things out and see what sticks", where you start detailing the suggestion that generates the best nonverbal feedback, or you can refuse to play the game and say look, I'm feeling I would do X because of my experience with Y. It looks like you have a specific answer in mind that was maybe informed by a different experience. Do you want to share it and we can talk about my thought process?" (This only works for open ended questions)
Don’t forget, you only need one to land.
Remember someone is paying you for your time and skill right now! If you can let the rejections go, a hard thing, you’ll end up somewhere that’s a better fit.
I recently changed roles and it took a handful of onsites to catch my stride - more than six for sure! I only ended up with two offers but they were from my top two companies.
If you’d like feedback you’re welcome to reach out (username at gmail) and I’d also suggest doing a phone screen with Triplebyte, I was really surprised by how much constructive feedback they gave although that didn’t lead to my next job.
Remember someone is paying you for your time and skill right now! If you can let the rejections go, a hard thing, you’ll end up somewhere that’s a better fit.
I recently changed roles and it took a handful of onsites to catch my stride - more than six for sure! I only ended up with two offers but they were from my top two companies.
If you’d like feedback you’re welcome to reach out (username at gmail) and I’d also suggest doing a phone screen with Triplebyte, I was really surprised by how much constructive feedback they gave although that didn’t lead to my next job.
Anything to do with your appearance or demeanour?
Not sure if that exists, but you may want to do a fake on-site with a coach; you're probably doing a few things wrong and the companies aren't telling you for HR reasons.
Just get them to like you as a person. Interviewing is really fucked up and not meritocratic.
If you're getting feedback about not enough experience in the same thing from multiple interviews? It means you may want to study it more or deemphasize it on your resume.
If you're getting that feedback on multiple areas, you might try reporting less experience -- only showing your bay area jobs and saying recent experience instead of experience. (The downside here is for many companies years of experience = level = pay)
If you're getting that feedback on multiple areas, you might try reporting less experience -- only showing your bay area jobs and saying recent experience instead of experience. (The downside here is for many companies years of experience = level = pay)
No, it's been twice I've gotten the "not enough experience" (non) answer. Once, the recruiter literally told me they were looking for someone with more "API experience." I don't even know WTF "API experience" is if not back end web development, and you can clearly see the number of years' experience I have in that on my resume.
All I could venture to offer to explain that feedback would be: did you use proper http codes? Post vs get vs put vs delete? Headers? Auth methods? Did you sign the requests? Maybe something else I'm forgetting.
Founder of Pramp.com here. Coding and interviewing are orthogonal skills. Being good at the former doesn't mean you're good at the latter. My recommendation to you is to challenge your own assumptions about your interviewing skills. Do you know for sure that you can do a credible job at system design? Is the process you use when tackling a problem aligns with interviewers' expectations? How are your communication skills? The point is that practicing coding interviews with other engineers will allow you to get unbiased feedback about many of the aspects above.
You might want to think about how you're selling yourself in these interviews. Imagine them sitting in a conference room going over candidates they have interviewed and talking about who they want to bring back for another interview and why. What would you want them to say about you in that discussion? Make sure to drive those points home through the whole hiring process (resume/cv/interview/etc).
Interviews are hit and miss.
That being said, if you're applying for jobs you're qualified for, you should hit 50%, not 0%.
I wouldn't expect useful feedback from companies that interview you.
In your position I would look for a (paid) service that does a mock interview and gives you honest feedback. With minimum googling I found http://programminginterviewprep.com/. I'm sure there are others.
Alternatively, you can ask trusted people you know to do it for free, but then that might bias the feedback (people you know usually don't want to hurt your feelings; you need honest feedback).
Also, if people tell you that you don't enough experience in X (e.g. JavaScript) then it's most likely not "you've been doing it for 3.5 years and we really need 4" but "we want someone who knows JavaScript in-depth and based on our interview we don't believe you're on that level".
So to remedy that, fill your JavaScript gaps and go deep enough so that you can present yourself as know JavaScript in-depth.
Since perception > reality, you don't have to be 100% expert. Sometimes it's enough to do 1 in-deep investigation and then talk about that one thing (e.g. micro benchmark es6 construct vs. its es5 transpiled version in Chrome, write a blog post about it with methodology and nice graphs and try to inject that interview conversation).
That being said, if you're applying for jobs you're qualified for, you should hit 50%, not 0%.
I wouldn't expect useful feedback from companies that interview you.
In your position I would look for a (paid) service that does a mock interview and gives you honest feedback. With minimum googling I found http://programminginterviewprep.com/. I'm sure there are others.
Alternatively, you can ask trusted people you know to do it for free, but then that might bias the feedback (people you know usually don't want to hurt your feelings; you need honest feedback).
Also, if people tell you that you don't enough experience in X (e.g. JavaScript) then it's most likely not "you've been doing it for 3.5 years and we really need 4" but "we want someone who knows JavaScript in-depth and based on our interview we don't believe you're on that level".
So to remedy that, fill your JavaScript gaps and go deep enough so that you can present yourself as know JavaScript in-depth.
Since perception > reality, you don't have to be 100% expert. Sometimes it's enough to do 1 in-deep investigation and then talk about that one thing (e.g. micro benchmark es6 construct vs. its es5 transpiled version in Chrome, write a blog post about it with methodology and nice graphs and try to inject that interview conversation).
> That being said, if you're applying for jobs you're qualified for, you should hit 50%, not 0%.
Most interview panels I’ve been on interview at least 3 candidates, sometimes 6 or 7. So the expected success rate has to be less than that.
And from my experiences on both sides of an interview, it’s pretty close to being random. On more than one occasion I’ve seen carefully crafted interview scores thrown out in favour of who the most senior interviewer ‘felt’ was better.
Most interview panels I’ve been on interview at least 3 candidates, sometimes 6 or 7. So the expected success rate has to be less than that.
And from my experiences on both sides of an interview, it’s pretty close to being random. On more than one occasion I’ve seen carefully crafted interview scores thrown out in favour of who the most senior interviewer ‘felt’ was better.
I just refused an (unpaid) technical test the other day when the guy insisted I have it done by Monday - I am not taking up a day of my weekend a short notice like that, especially after just an initial phone screen.
He then said that they were interviewing around 20 other people. So that would be a 1 in 20 chance.
He then said that they were interviewing around 20 other people. So that would be a 1 in 20 chance.
Definitely interested in programminginterviewprep.com or something similar. If anyone else has other services they know of, I'd love to hear about them.
> That being said, if you're applying for jobs you're qualified for, you should hit 50%, not 0%.
Let me rephrase that: I'm interviewing for positions where I feel I meet most of the posted requirements, and I'm getting moved on to onsites.
> That being said, if you're applying for jobs you're qualified for, you should hit 50%, not 0%.
Let me rephrase that: I'm interviewing for positions where I feel I meet most of the posted requirements, and I'm getting moved on to onsites.
It’s a lottery (slowly becoming in literal sense with the same magnitude of probabilities), but I could vote for at least one of the two reasons - your salary requirements, or you are >>30 years old applying to a workplace full of people in their 20s.
If it's salary requirements, then they're psychic, because I'm dodging that question left and right. I've literally not answered that question with a number yet. But I am in my mid 40's.
I haven't tried it, but I've heard good things about interviewing.io. You do a practice interview with someone for free and they give you feedback.
https://interviewing.io/
https://interviewing.io/
I've actually signed up for this, and looked at some of their interview replays. They only do phone screen type coding interviews. Those are the kind I consistently do very well in anyway.
A lot of the times, the companies will pick the guys who have the best portfolio. You must be lacking in either finished projects or open source ones. It will be wise to invest your time in building it up to be more impressive and eye catchy.
This sucks for people who work in house. Most backend work seems to be like that.
What kind of numbers are we actually talking here? Three interviews? Five? Ten? Fifty? Its really hard to tell if its just an expected rate of failure or if you are missing a Hard/Soft skill...
Good question. I am currently 0/6 in onsites, and 7/7 in technical phone screens. I anticipate having more interviews in the next couple of weeks, as I have no shortage of opportunities in my inbox.
I'm a little late to the party on my follow up... but the numbers should be an indicator of what your next steps are. If you 7/7 on phone screens that means you're doing just fine there, and that the issue is something in person (more than likely its an easy fix too! most of the screening for applicants happens in the early stages)
I would start taking detailed notes of the types of questions that you are being asked in person and examine the initial reactions of the people that are performing the interviews. There's something hidden somewhere in the interview and you can find it if you read the situation carefully.
Last note quick => I would REALLY REALLY dig in and make sure these are even companies that you would want to work for... just because they want to hire you doesn't mean that its a good fit for you. And despite what it may seem (the way companies run around pretending that you should feel fortunate to work for them) the consequences of taking a job that is a bad fit are significantly worse to you than for them to make a bad hire.
I would start taking detailed notes of the types of questions that you are being asked in person and examine the initial reactions of the people that are performing the interviews. There's something hidden somewhere in the interview and you can find it if you read the situation carefully.
Last note quick => I would REALLY REALLY dig in and make sure these are even companies that you would want to work for... just because they want to hire you doesn't mean that its a good fit for you. And despite what it may seem (the way companies run around pretending that you should feel fortunate to work for them) the consequences of taking a job that is a bad fit are significantly worse to you than for them to make a bad hire.
Usually phone screens only check how well you can code, whereas onsite interviewers dig deeper on your design skills and experience in addition to coding. So it could be that you over-indexed on coding when preparing.
What do you look like? Being attractive helps. Dress well, carry yourself well.
I'm a 6' tall white male, probably average to slightly above average attractiveness.
Age? Sex? Race? In the US all these seem to matter, age only in the EU
Interesting that you say that. I am based in Europe and always felt that the sexism / racism thing was over blown (to be fair I don't hear a great deal about racism in tech).
I'm a mid 40's white male. I have no gray hair, and I'm frequently told I look younger.
in the US age may matter, race and gender not so much. Never worked in EU but I’ve heard Europeans are more racist
Easiest way is, tell them that you are willing to work for half the wage required for this role and see what they've to say :)
Feedback I keep getting is more of the nature "we didn't feel like you had enough experience with X." That doesn't really jibe to me because that should be obvious from my resume. It seems like if "experience" is the problem, then I shouldn't have been invited to the interview in the first place, based on the resume. A couple of times, I have gotten "It was close, but...," however, I'm not sure if I should believe that.
Assuming I can actually write code, and can do a somewhat credible job in system design interviews, what might be the problem?
Background: I have 5 years experience in software engineering, mostly web programming. For the past 3.5 years, I've worked at companies here in the Bay Area. I'm interviewing for positions that match these requirements.
I am currently 0/6 in onsite interviews, and 7/7 in phone screens.