Steve Wozniak on Smart Watches, Motivating Engineers, Siri, and More(spectrum.ieee.org)
spectrum.ieee.org
Steve Wozniak on Smart Watches, Motivating Engineers, Siri, and More
https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/tech-history/silicon-revolution/apple-cofounder-steve-wozniak-on-smart-watches-motivating-engineers-siri-and-more
138 comments
> This is not the attention to detail Apple is supposedly known for.
It is the kind of annoying amusing malfunction Apple apps are known for. Autocorrect was another big offender for years. The funniest for me was when my iPhone insisted on changing “there” into “they’re” when “there” was correct
It is the kind of annoying amusing malfunction Apple apps are known for. Autocorrect was another big offender for years. The funniest for me was when my iPhone insisted on changing “there” into “they’re” when “there” was correct
Apple autocorrect has gotten worse over the past few years. The worst part is that it often changes words that were correctly typed to something wrong without the user noticing.
There are also obvious mistakes with location that just shouldn’t happen. If I am in Glasgow and ask Siri “how far to Loch Lomond?” it should be obvious that I mean Loch Lomond in Scotland and not Loch Lomond VA.
It’s interesting to note Woz’s current enthusiasm for the watch because he was very down on it when it launched.
There are also obvious mistakes with location that just shouldn’t happen. If I am in Glasgow and ask Siri “how far to Loch Lomond?” it should be obvious that I mean Loch Lomond in Scotland and not Loch Lomond VA.
It’s interesting to note Woz’s current enthusiasm for the watch because he was very down on it when it launched.
I don't know about other countries, but that also happens to me with Google Maps in Mexico. I sometimes query a street located in my city and it will send me thousands of kilometers away (even if they do have the street in their DB).
I guess Google Maps calculates the probability a place will be looked for, and of course a small street in a not too big city in Mexico will be less likely to be searched than a popular place in Europe. But common if I wanted to look for something in Europe I'll zoom out and place the map in Europe. If my zoom is in my city I obviously want to look something in MY CITY!
I guess Google Maps calculates the probability a place will be looked for, and of course a small street in a not too big city in Mexico will be less likely to be searched than a popular place in Europe. But common if I wanted to look for something in Europe I'll zoom out and place the map in Europe. If my zoom is in my city I obviously want to look something in MY CITY!
By far the greatest improvement I have ever made to just about all of my machine learning based apps was moving to San Francisco. You’d be surprised how well they all work here.
Whenever I go visit back home in Slovenia my phone loses about 60% of its utility overnight.
Whenever I go visit back home in Slovenia my phone loses about 60% of its utility overnight.
I was two blocks from WeWork in downtown San Francisco, which is not a place I know well, entered the exact street address, and Apple Maps sent me two blocks farther away, I had to switch to Google Maps.
This happens to me sometimes when I travel/move. I'll enter a search on Google Maps, and it will sometimes search where my previous settlement was. Like, I'll search for a Best Buy in my current location, but for some reason it will search where I was yesterday.
I’ve honestly wondered if autocorrect machine learning has picked up on poor autocorrect choices, causing a reinforcement loop, causing it to continue getting worse
> Apple autocorrect has gotten worse over the past few years
At least then you can blame it for replacing "become" with "gotten"!
At least then you can blame it for replacing "become" with "gotten"!
If there were one metric that i wish apple would actually capture and share with everyone in the world is:
How many backspace keystrokes and seconds have been wasted due to autocorrect features on phones
The other one only the universe knows:
how much time has been wasted by humans untangling headphones which get tangled due to the grippy texture-finish of their rubberized coating
How many backspace keystrokes and seconds have been wasted due to autocorrect features on phones
The other one only the universe knows:
how much time has been wasted by humans untangling headphones which get tangled due to the grippy texture-finish of their rubberized coating
Good news: https://youtu.be/9D_oV14dGmM
Search is never easy and Google has raised the bars in a lot of small ways so high that you have to be a search company to match the level. Apple is not a search company, it's not in their DNA as they say. Look at App Store search (and recommendations) for example, or the same Maps.
Similarly Google can't build hardware products and good UIs. Sure they can copy and be moderately successful, but they never matched Apple in terms of knowing how to build gadgets as art/fashion items, and not just gadgets. Again, it's just not in the company's DNA.
Wish there was a company with all that in one package... but no, nothing on the horizon yet.
Similarly Google can't build hardware products and good UIs. Sure they can copy and be moderately successful, but they never matched Apple in terms of knowing how to build gadgets as art/fashion items, and not just gadgets. Again, it's just not in the company's DNA.
Wish there was a company with all that in one package... but no, nothing on the horizon yet.
I wonder if you added up all the little niggling search and service issues from living in Apple's ecosystem and all the niggling device issues from living in the Google ecosystem which one would be smaller. I actually suspect Google's would be smaller because Apple deliberately handicaps itself in order to enhance privacy.
Don't think so, no. Making the Maps Search more sensible requires the app to know the current location which it does anyway, plus maybe your search history. I'm sure a lot of people would give Apple permission to store search history with all the Apple-style privacy statements in place of course. I think their product management just doesn't get it.
> shrugs and returns any answer rather than admit failure
I find no answer worse than a bad answer. Siri alternates between these two.
I find no answer worse than a bad answer. Siri alternates between these two.
The inconsistency is worst.
I still see Siri in the “maybe someday” category. I don’t have Siri turned on, but my wife does. I hear her talking to it to mostly look up measurement conversions and such.
An anecdote of my favorite Siri incident. One night a couple weeks ago, we had an abundance of dragonflies in our yard. I said that they were there because they are bugs and it was the right time of day for that. She thought dragonflies ate something else, so she asked Siri, “what do dragonflies eat?”
Siri told us that we should consult a local zoologist before attempting to care for wild animals.
An anecdote of my favorite Siri incident. One night a couple weeks ago, we had an abundance of dragonflies in our yard. I said that they were there because they are bugs and it was the right time of day for that. She thought dragonflies ate something else, so she asked Siri, “what do dragonflies eat?”
Siri told us that we should consult a local zoologist before attempting to care for wild animals.
Siri is by far the worst voice assisted tech on the market, by a wide margin.
Alexa is probably the best, she rarely can’t answer basic questions like the one you posed. Siri 9 out of 10 times cannot perform a task or answer a question when asked.
Alexa is probably the best, she rarely can’t answer basic questions like the one you posed. Siri 9 out of 10 times cannot perform a task or answer a question when asked.
I'd say Google Assistant on Google Home is best. I own both Echo and Home and found Home to be the best at recognizing the questions and answering to my satisfaction. For example, I ask: "How much time it will take to go to Fifth & Mission Parking Garage by Car" and Home says "in current traffic, it will take you X mins." whereas Alexa concedes defeat by saying she does not know the answer to that. It seems to me that 5-10 years in future, Google will have a terrific Assitant that understands quite complex questions and will be way more helpful with the answers.
Have you spent a lot of time with a Google Home? I've personally found when compared to Alex it tends to do a better job at "question" style things, when it doesn't randomly not understand something it just minutes ago understood just fine.
It’s strange how inconsistent everyone’s experiences are with digital assistants. In my opinion they are all fine for basic things like unit conversions etc. and terrible with everything else.
I'm in healthcare IT and our hospital uses Vocera. One time our ER team was working a code and the MD triggered Vocera and asked it to call the X-ray tech. Vocera responds, "Calling... PIZZA TRUCK" It was this weird situation where everyone wanted to laugh but we couldn't because we were working the code. So our eyes all met awkwardly in the room as we collectively stiffled our giggles which the MD frustratedly cursed out Vocera. Meanwhile the actual ER tech ran and got the x-ray team.
I've gotten similar answers trying to find out what animals eat (during a discussion with my kid).
We mainly use it for a shopping list (shared reminders list) and for setting timers. Occasionally I'll check the weather or sunset/sunrise times. I've tried to use it for hands free navigation with a bluetooth headset, but you still have to interact with the screen to start it.
We mainly use it for a shopping list (shared reminders list) and for setting timers. Occasionally I'll check the weather or sunset/sunrise times. I've tried to use it for hands free navigation with a bluetooth headset, but you still have to interact with the screen to start it.
Steve Wozniak's story of making the Apple ][ floppy disk is an absolute must read, if you have not yet enjoyed it.
https://paleotronic.com/2018/05/19/steve-wozniak-talks-disk/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17101830
The story was included with many other Woz tales in jl's book "Founders at Work"
http://www.foundersatwork.com/steve-wozniak.html
https://paleotronic.com/2018/05/19/steve-wozniak-talks-disk/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17101830
The story was included with many other Woz tales in jl's book "Founders at Work"
http://www.foundersatwork.com/steve-wozniak.html
Long but definitely interesting read.
FTA: “I bought the first Samsung Gear watch. That’s the only tech product I’ve bought in all these decades that I sent back after one day. I couldn’t get anything out of it except the time.”
Pure Woz! He says this at a Samsung event!
Pure Woz! He says this at a Samsung event!
To be fair, it could be the first watch was garbage but he thinks the current one is much better.
>Wozniak got his hands on early versions of Siri, and, he said, “I loved Siri for years. I could ask it: ‘What are the five largest lakes in California?' and get an answer. That’s hard to do any other way on the Internet. Then, Apple bought it and now, if you ask that, it gives you a list of lakeside real estate developers.”
Mmm no. It gives you a list of web results, none of which has to do with real estate. Maybe Woz's Google results were influenced by his own real estate searches :)
It's still ridicolous that you don't get a straight answer, though.
Mmm no. It gives you a list of web results, none of which has to do with real estate. Maybe Woz's Google results were influenced by his own real estate searches :)
It's still ridicolous that you don't get a straight answer, though.
I just tried that exact query and it showed a table of results from Wolfram Alpha of the "5 largest notable lakes in CA".
I would consider that a correct response.
I would consider that a correct response.
When I asked the same question, I got a series of web search results, not Wolfram Alpha results. The top result was Wikipedia's entry "List of Lakes in California" which contains a big list alphabetized by name, not sortable by surface area.
You’ve actually hit on Siri’s biggest problem - inconsistency. Sometimes it works great and others it’s a head scratcher with the exact same query. I think it is getting better though.
> The top result was Wikipedia's entry "List of Lakes in California" which contains a big list alphabetized by name, not sortable by surface area.
Works for me (at least for those where a surface area is maintained in the table). Do you have JS turned off?
Works for me (at least for those where a surface area is maintained in the table). Do you have JS turned off?
I’ve found you can ask Siri to explicitly search Wolfram Alpha. Far from ideal.
I am getting the Wikipedia list (“I found this on the web”). Tried asking it to search Wolfram Alpha (which spellcheck corrected to WolframAlpha btw!) and it said it couldn’t find that info on WolframAlpha
I got the same list from Wolfram Alpha. I wonder why so many people get different results.
I tried the exact same query and got told to google it on my iPhone.
I don’t think he was being serious about precisely what it gives you. I think he was commenting on how these tools are meant to either turn us into commodities or sell us stuff.
To those who worry about AI taking over everything, I present them with Siri, Alexa, or Google Assistant. Some of the brightest folks are working on them. They still can't make sense of often trivial questions, let alone complex ones.
I just asked Google Home that question, and it the largest lake it gave isn't a lake that exists. The largest lake (by surface area) is the Salton Sea, which was result #2.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." --George Bernard Shaw
I never found use for Siri other than setting a timer in kitchen with dirty hands. It couldn't even turn on a flashlight.
> It couldn't even turn on a flashlight
Thanks for this idea. I just tried it, and Siri was able to do it successfully.
Thanks for this idea. I just tried it, and Siri was able to do it successfully.
Speech recognition in the cloud to press a button.
> Speech recognition
This is the challenge - to recognize our words, sounds, phonetics, and context. Rest is just commodity.
This is the challenge - to recognize our words, sounds, phonetics, and context. Rest is just commodity.
Makes sense if your hands are filthy.
You'll still have to grab the phone to point the flashlight.
It didn't work for me on iOS 11. I'll try when I'll decide to update.
I also use it for adding calendar events, much easier to say than type a title, set the date and time and set the duration.
Siri can set an alarm for me, add reminder and narrate all my WhatsApp messages. And there goes 85% of my phone usage.
It’s also good for setting location-based reminders (remind me when I leave here bring UPS package). And it used to be the case that some types of repeating calendar entries could only be inputted via Siri (make an appointment for every Thursday at noon called lunch with Steve).
I use it for setting reminders (with the default Reminders app; I use it for everything), sending text messages, calling people, and playing music.
Works pretty well for HomeKit control for me. It’s also decent for random math inquiries (e.g. “how many days until X?”)
> Sunday, 29 June 1975, has gone down in computing history as the day on which Steve Wozniak first showed Steve Jobs a working prototype of the Apple 1, and as the first time that someone typed a character on the keyboard of a personal computer and it appeared on a screen. ... Said Wozniak, “You know I’m a prankster — I actually made up that date and just kept repeating it.” The actual event, as he can best recall, happened weeks or months later.
I don't get it. How is citing a decades-old date weeks before the real date a "prank"?
I don't get it. How is citing a decades-old date weeks before the real date a "prank"?
I think the "prank" is that now whenever someone cites that day he knows it's the wrong day. I find it kind of funny the cult of Mac has that day wrong.
Ugh, I hate "pranks" like that.
I once met an Englishman, who assured me he was from South Africa, after talking with him for like 10 minutes, he starts cracking up... when I asked why he said "Because I'm actually English!!"
...
hilarious.
I once met an Englishman, who assured me he was from South Africa, after talking with him for like 10 minutes, he starts cracking up... when I asked why he said "Because I'm actually English!!"
...
hilarious.
This is a cultural thing. If you must spend time with British people (or some of the ex-colonies) you need to learn how to recognise (and protect yourself from) sarcasm and "jokes" (what you might see as lies and cruelty).
When I was 21 in the US we played a mean game of seeing what we could make Americans believe - and we came up with some truly bizarre stuff.
I think that English people do this as a proxy test of intelligence - it is a continuous competition. Maybe an English person can correct me?
When I was 21 in the US we played a mean game of seeing what we could make Americans believe - and we came up with some truly bizarre stuff.
I think that English people do this as a proxy test of intelligence - it is a continuous competition. Maybe an English person can correct me?
I don’t know why I care so much about tech celebrity opinions but I do.
I dont care about pop culture celebrities but I eat up Steve Jobs reminisce pieces and Wozniak opinions like candy even if the particular article is banal.
I dont care about pop culture celebrities but I eat up Steve Jobs reminisce pieces and Wozniak opinions like candy even if the particular article is banal.
Well, Jobs and Wozniak actually made an observable effect on the tech world, which by extension affects everybody through tech's ubiquity in modern life. Kanye makes decent music. I know who I'm going to listen to or read about.
Tbh Jobs is more of a Michael Jackson, he started a wave. Both perfectionists and somewhat assholes in personal lives.
Does anyone have the videotape of this?
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The only thing we have used Siri for is for identification of song that we have heard over the radio, and also for the amusement of my kids on how to spell swear words.
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>“I loved Siri for years. I could ask it: ‘What are the five largest lakes in California?' and get an answer. That’s hard to do any other way on the Internet.
What does "hard to do any other way on the Internet" mean here? I'm honestly confused because say you Google it then you get the results instantly. Unless he is talking about the definition of "large" which can be the area covered or the volume but then that's up to the question itself and not Siri.
What does "hard to do any other way on the Internet" mean here? I'm honestly confused because say you Google it then you get the results instantly. Unless he is talking about the definition of "large" which can be the area covered or the volume but then that's up to the question itself and not Siri.
Google will instantly serve up an answer to a question like that these days, but it hasn't always been the case.
Until a few years ago it could take multiple searches and some manual collating/filtering/calculating of results to get the answer to that question.
I think that's what he means.
Until a few years ago it could take multiple searches and some manual collating/filtering/calculating of results to get the answer to that question.
I think that's what he means.
+lakes +california +(largest OR "by size") what are the 5 largest lakes in California
Only that google now treats "+" and "-" merely as suggestions, if you want to fine tune your results, google got really bad at that. DDG and bing handle it fine. On google you usually have to find a link to click "yes, really only provide results with the keyword I explicitly provided" and even then you end up with 8 results where you would get hundreds of them a few years ago.
Yes, that's the point. Most people couldn't use + correctly, so Google moved to "", and most people can't use that so Google treats it as a suggestion.
As much as we hate the new google that returns pages that don't contain our search terms, other people love it because it mostly just works for them.
The old Google, the Google where word order mattered and whereyou could use + or -, was hard to use for most people. AskJeeves' selling point was that you could just aski it natural language questions.
As much as we hate the new google that returns pages that don't contain our search terms, other people love it because it mostly just works for them.
The old Google, the Google where word order mattered and whereyou could use + or -, was hard to use for most people. AskJeeves' selling point was that you could just aski it natural language questions.
Use quotes instead of plus. Plus was reassigned for Google plus
I just realized, they can totally assign it back now...
Google now also treats doublequotes as suggestions now it seems.
On bad days (I'm assuming some A/B-testing going on) it also ignores the verbatim option.
On bad days (I'm assuming some A/B-testing going on) it also ignores the verbatim option.
Indeed. Sometimes I think that if I had a text collection of a few sources (like HN), I could do a better job just greping them on my own PC. This is in regard to highly specific queries e.g. when debugging.
A trick I've found out, which strengthens my suspicion that the "bugs" are just stupid a/b tests:
If you get worse results than you usually get, try reporting it (or reporting basically any problem) on the page.
For me at least it seems that magically within hours the problem is now gone.
In the beginning I thought they had fixed the issue I reported really quick. But after seing this happen again (and again) I think a better explanation is they have a systen that opts you out of the tests once you report a problem.
Personally I have moved on to DDG (and I have one browser with Qwant as the default) but this trick helped me a few times.
If you get worse results than you usually get, try reporting it (or reporting basically any problem) on the page.
For me at least it seems that magically within hours the problem is now gone.
In the beginning I thought they had fixed the issue I reported really quick. But after seing this happen again (and again) I think a better explanation is they have a systen that opts you out of the tests once you report a problem.
Personally I have moved on to DDG (and I have one browser with Qwant as the default) but this trick helped me a few times.
You still need to pick up your device, unlock it, open a browser and enter your query. Simply saying it is much easier.
True, but picking up your device etc. is not really “hard to do”.
It is if it's in another room. But yeah, it's not really hard, I agree - but I think Woz used that word in a different sense - as in "it takes a lot of steps that need thinking", not "it'll exhaust you".
I just searched my home address from where I’m typing this comment, a street name of about 10 letters followed by a 2-digit street number in an European capital city of 2 million people. Google Maps gave me the correct street name after typing 5 of those 10 street name letters and after I also inputed the street number the first result in the suggested list was the correct one. Apple Maps didn’t display the correct address at any point of me inputting the address’s letters and digits, and after I finished writing them down all and clicking the search button it redirected me to an address with the same name located 100 kilometers away. Apple Maps still has a very long way to go.
Might it be Google Maps has the added feature of all your search history, your (real time) location and all those other privacy-sensitive data?
One Saturday morning Apple Maps displayed a message on my locked phone’s display saying something like: “You’re XXX meters away from [coffee place]”, where [coffee place] is the location where I usually drink my coffees (especially during the weekend) and where I have never checked-in at or searched online. Meaning Apple is as privacy intrusive as Google and FB, but apparently they’rs still lagging in location search.
You can disable that in the privacy settings on your iPhone though, and that data never leaves your iPhone according to Apple. Google doesn't make the same promise.
Stuff like this should always be opt-in, never opt-out.
It is opt in. When you set up your phone for the first time or after a restore, it asks
I call that nag in nowadays. Pretty common, and sad to say very effective.
Opt-in to something that is only happening inside your device?
I'm not sure these are opt-out. I think they're opt in.
I have the latest iPhone (well, it was the latest until this fall ) on the latest non-jailbroken firmware and have used an iPhone since the 5s. I go to coffee shops often. They're basically my second home.
I also use the default Apple maps when navigating, and have location turned on for a few services, including find my iPhone.
My phone definitely knows where I frequent. I recently moved cities and my iPhone recognizes my new "home" even though I never updated it. (it's where I sleep a lot, I guess).
Still, I have never gotten these location-based alerts, nor have I ever opted out of them.
I have the latest iPhone (well, it was the latest until this fall ) on the latest non-jailbroken firmware and have used an iPhone since the 5s. I go to coffee shops often. They're basically my second home.
I also use the default Apple maps when navigating, and have location turned on for a few services, including find my iPhone.
My phone definitely knows where I frequent. I recently moved cities and my iPhone recognizes my new "home" even though I never updated it. (it's where I sleep a lot, I guess).
Still, I have never gotten these location-based alerts, nor have I ever opted out of them.
I think this is callled Location Based Alerts and based on Significant Locations: https://ibb.co/eBzOQf
Apple keeps location logs, but AFAIK they never leave your device. These suggestions are made locally.
It certainly sent my geo-data outside of my phone where it was reversely geo-located to the name of the coffee shop, there’s no info on my phone alone matching the name of the coffee shop to its geo-location.
The location seems to have been sent out to do the geo location lookup, but do you think it also sent up that you’re there frequently, or anything else about your schedule?
So they do send data out.
I’m not sure you’re familiar with how the internet works.
I’m not sure I follow: a poster above said something like “Apple keeps all your geo-location data on your phone/device, no need to worry”, I followed up by saying that that’s highly unlikely, because somehow Apple was able to reverse geo-locate my coordinates into a POI, most probably by sending data out of my device, to their servers, your telling me “I don’t know how the Internet works” doesn’t enlighten me one bit.
If it matters I can agree that I’m not the smartest bulb in the room when it comes to the latest web-dev stuff, it just happened that by chance I got to work on this geo and web stuff taken together for quite some time now, just a little before Google decided to publish their Maps API (that’s early 2006, if I’m not mistaken). I remember the glorious days of writing Python scripts that would help connect in real time an external GPS unit to a N60 Nokia phone so that the images taken with the phone would be mapped to geo-coordinates written on a file somewhere that will later be used to display those images on a map. Because back in those days phones didn’t have GPS capabilities built-in. I was also the person who built the first google maps mashup around these parts of the world (a pale replica of the Chicago crime website adapted to my home city, extracting addresses from plain-text police reports automatically was fun) and ever since then I have been obsessed with geo stuff and maps on the web. But, as I said, I’m not the brightest bulb so maybe I’m missing something about “how the internet works” and as such I’d be happy to learn more.
If it matters I can agree that I’m not the smartest bulb in the room when it comes to the latest web-dev stuff, it just happened that by chance I got to work on this geo and web stuff taken together for quite some time now, just a little before Google decided to publish their Maps API (that’s early 2006, if I’m not mistaken). I remember the glorious days of writing Python scripts that would help connect in real time an external GPS unit to a N60 Nokia phone so that the images taken with the phone would be mapped to geo-coordinates written on a file somewhere that will later be used to display those images on a map. Because back in those days phones didn’t have GPS capabilities built-in. I was also the person who built the first google maps mashup around these parts of the world (a pale replica of the Chicago crime website adapted to my home city, extracting addresses from plain-text police reports automatically was fun) and ever since then I have been obsessed with geo stuff and maps on the web. But, as I said, I’m not the brightest bulb so maybe I’m missing something about “how the internet works” and as such I’d be happy to learn more.
You don’t need to take my comment so seriously. It’s a quip at the whole “data going out” thing. The first thing your iPhone does when it boots (run it through tcpdump) is contact Akamai (the CDN Apple uses). Data goes out.
The information never leaves your phone. Keeping where you go locally on your phone is no different privacy wise than keeping your text messages and your call history.
But yes it can be disabled.
But yes it can be disabled.
I’ve just replied to a similar comment above, I’m not sure that the “information never leaves my phone” is accurate as my phone was able to reversely geo-locate my geo coordinates to the name of the coffee shop. I’m not sure how it would do that without sending my geo-data to outside of it or without trying to match my geo-location to extracted keywords from my messages (which would open another big can of worms).
Sending a data outside and keeping that data on the outside servers are two different things don’t you think? Apple might use a web api but they don’t store that data about you unlike google.
Once the data is outside of my device I have no control over it and I suspect that it is somehow stored on some server, yes.
They could have first accumulate information about where you were and then make a location lookup later, this separatimg the visit from time. They could also make some decoy geo-location request. I dunno if they do, but if i was serious about it I would.
Or maybe this being a frequent location for you they already cached the map tiles from that one time you opened the map while in the neighborhood.
Or maybe they actually loaded all POIs in your home state at some point in the past. There aren’t that many out there.
Or maybe this being a frequent location for you they already cached the map tiles from that one time you opened the map while in the neighborhood.
Or maybe they actually loaded all POIs in your home state at some point in the past. There aren’t that many out there.
They have a whole white paper on differential privacy. But more to the point is motive. What motive does Apple have in collecting individual user location data? They don’t sell advertising outside of the App Store and that’s just based on keyword search.
> Meaning Apple is as privacy intrusive as Google and FB
From what I recall, Apple supposedly does not collect that data.
https://www.cultofmac.com/522515/how-to-see-iphone-significa...
From what I recall, Apple supposedly does not collect that data.
https://www.cultofmac.com/522515/how-to-see-iphone-significa...
Turning that off is non obvious too. I needed to when it got a bit deranged due to variable working hours and gave me travel times to the same location multiple times a day.
You can serve specific suggestions without violation of privacy.
Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google.
Unlike Google, Samsung, Microsoft or Amazon who have never rushed a product to market before it was really ready.... er.
The thing is, Apple Maps was a screwup yes, but it's never been a paid feature and you could just install Google maps if you wanted to. I would agree that we do generally expect more from Apple, but as an iPhone owner that just stuck with other better free options anyway, I have difficulty working up any strong emotions about it.
The thing is, Apple Maps was a screwup yes, but it's never been a paid feature and you could just install Google maps if you wanted to. I would agree that we do generally expect more from Apple, but as an iPhone owner that just stuck with other better free options anyway, I have difficulty working up any strong emotions about it.
I’m European, and before apple maps; Siri couldn’t search for businesses or places of interest. “Sorry, I can only look for places and businesses in the US and when using US English”.[0]
Sure. There were growing pains, but being out from under the thumb of google is a good thing. Both _my_ user experience and my privacy as a customer has improved.
[0]: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw
Sure. There were growing pains, but being out from under the thumb of google is a good thing. Both _my_ user experience and my privacy as a customer has improved.
[0]: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o_e4qV2dRCdQY1aAFdEQW9Lw
> Apple lost my trust with their maps. They were willing to push a bad product to their customers as a negotiating card against Google.
I don't know the details but I assume it was about money. If I ran Apple, I wouldn't be comfortable displaying ads on an app that is 1. installed for all users by default 2. the user cannot uninstall.
I am OK with a built-in app doing data collection for ads provided it only starts collecting said data after informed consent. However, displaying ads from Google's ad network would hurt me in at least two ways: 1. it ruins the default experience for the users (I think Google agrees that ads are bad for user experience or it wouldn't have things like YouTube Red or soon to be called YouTube Premium) 2. it ruins my relationship with advertisers who now have to go through Google to reach my customers.
Google, I assume, is also unwilling to provide Google Maps free of charge without 1. contributing data back to make Google Maps better (and serve better, higher paying ads) 2. allowing Apple to serve as the sole ad exchange for Google Maps for iOS
Once again, these are just my guesses. I know nothing about the industry. I thought it was strange that advertisers don't simply trust Google when it comes to data about advertising and want some kind of auditing (can you imagine yet another tracking script that phones home to some consulting company that is charged with keeping Google "honest"?) However, the recent reports that Facebook lied to advertisers shows that the concern is real (if not for Google but at least for some other people). Anyway, what I have learned is that the world of advertising is built on distrust. My understanding of advertising is very limited. It seems like the industry thinks there is value in advertising that does not immediately lead to user action like a purchase. The advertiser gets value out of an ad simply being displayed even if the user has no intention of eating a McDonalds or getting an Uber at this very moment. The problem I can't wrap my head around is how does McDonalds know if an ad display impression is legitimate and how does Google know that all legitimate ad display impressions get counted and paid for without using a third party arbiter (an arbiter is unacceptable to me if I were Google)?
I'd love corrections if I made any bad assumptions. Thanks
I don't know the details but I assume it was about money. If I ran Apple, I wouldn't be comfortable displaying ads on an app that is 1. installed for all users by default 2. the user cannot uninstall.
I am OK with a built-in app doing data collection for ads provided it only starts collecting said data after informed consent. However, displaying ads from Google's ad network would hurt me in at least two ways: 1. it ruins the default experience for the users (I think Google agrees that ads are bad for user experience or it wouldn't have things like YouTube Red or soon to be called YouTube Premium) 2. it ruins my relationship with advertisers who now have to go through Google to reach my customers.
Google, I assume, is also unwilling to provide Google Maps free of charge without 1. contributing data back to make Google Maps better (and serve better, higher paying ads) 2. allowing Apple to serve as the sole ad exchange for Google Maps for iOS
Once again, these are just my guesses. I know nothing about the industry. I thought it was strange that advertisers don't simply trust Google when it comes to data about advertising and want some kind of auditing (can you imagine yet another tracking script that phones home to some consulting company that is charged with keeping Google "honest"?) However, the recent reports that Facebook lied to advertisers shows that the concern is real (if not for Google but at least for some other people). Anyway, what I have learned is that the world of advertising is built on distrust. My understanding of advertising is very limited. It seems like the industry thinks there is value in advertising that does not immediately lead to user action like a purchase. The advertiser gets value out of an ad simply being displayed even if the user has no intention of eating a McDonalds or getting an Uber at this very moment. The problem I can't wrap my head around is how does McDonalds know if an ad display impression is legitimate and how does Google know that all legitimate ad display impressions get counted and paid for without using a third party arbiter (an arbiter is unacceptable to me if I were Google)?
I'd love corrections if I made any bad assumptions. Thanks
It was about turn-by-turn directions. Google had them, Apple wanted them, and Google knew that keeping it exclusive to Google Maps was a big competitive advantage.
https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_swit...
I've read other more recent accounts that also claim Google wanted to collect more location data from iOS users in order to license their scalable vector map tiles to Apple, but couldn't find the link.
https://daringfireball.net/2012/09/timing_of_apples_map_swit...
I've read other more recent accounts that also claim Google wanted to collect more location data from iOS users in order to license their scalable vector map tiles to Apple, but couldn't find the link.
Here's an article with a bit more detail
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-map...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/11/apple-map...
Thanks to you and the grand parent comment. This shows the power of defaults, right? It makes sense in this light that Google is willing to pay a billion plus dollars to Apple every year to be the default search.
I'm still amazed by these big numbers though because I just can't wrap my head around them.
I'm still amazed by these big numbers though because I just can't wrap my head around them.
It may have been about money, or because Apple no longer felt comfortable sharing all of their customers' location data with Google anytime they used the built-in maps app. I don't believe the option of displaying ads was ever considered.
Honi soit qui mal y pense...
Honi soit qui mal y pense...
I've used apple maps from Day 1 - I've honestly never really had an issue with it - other than very early, it had huge issues with finding addresses - they fixed that within the first year.
No mapping application should, can, or will be 100% accurate its up to you as the user to ensure the directions given are sane and reasonable.
No mapping application should, can, or will be 100% accurate its up to you as the user to ensure the directions given are sane and reasonable.
I assume you live in the US or you wouldn't be saying that. It's essentially unusable in Germany. As important privacy may be, Apple Maps simply isn't a competitor in Europe. OSM might be. Apple isn't.
As long as we’re doing anecdata: Apple Maps is leaps and bounds better in the archipelago of Stockholm, Sweden. Google Maps is basically impossible to navigate with in a kayak.
In Stockholm urban area it’s about the same, but the Apple Maps UI is anecdotally easier to use (my mom being the test subject)
In Stockholm urban area it’s about the same, but the Apple Maps UI is anecdotally easier to use (my mom being the test subject)
This is fantastic. Do you get any different types of direction when on the water? I’m imagining the head scratching when a feature request comes in for tide and wind would seem helpful to be incorporated into travel time.
I mean, of course they didn't design Apple Maps for seafaring. It would be super useful though to get local wind speeds estimates, and directions -- and in particular predicted wave heights! Nothing to get the blood going like meter-high waves on the outer coast. Do or die kind of deal.
And the guy in charge of that got fired. Apple held itself accountable for that mistake. Meanwhile at Google, they continue to double down on privacy-hostile business practices.
As a self-determination card.
If you're thinking in 'customer journey' terms (and I don't just mean maps), you don't want anyone holding segments hostage.
If you're thinking in 'customer journey' terms (and I don't just mean maps), you don't want anyone holding segments hostage.
Interestingly, just yesterday I saw an Apple Maps Car crossing the Benicia bridge... What I thought of seeing this was "Oh, wow - an apple maps car - don't see to many 'maps cars' around any more... interesting"
So, it shows they have some self-awareness of the problem.
So, it shows they have some self-awareness of the problem.
How is this in any way relevant?
That's because Google knows where you live.
Apple also knows where I live and where I drink my morning coffee (pls sea the other comment I made reguarding this).
Apple doesn’t. Your phone does.
And any day of the week, with their lawyers' approval, apple can release an update where they pester you with a fullscreen notification until the end of time asking you to upgrade to a new OS version where they do send all of that data back
For example sometimes searching Apple Maps for an address like 123 Mountain View in a development where there are similar addresses like Mountain Drive or Mountain Glade it’ll often ignore what you typed (or correctly heard in the case of Siri) and give you the wrong location such as Mountain Wood. This is especially frustrating when it happens to be your home location.
For a compounded example I tried to use geofenced reminders on iOS. I had set my home and work addresses in Contacts but edited their location manually on the map because the postal address Apple offers isn’t correct and is useless when using the very useful autocomplete feature in safari. Searching for Home/Work on Apple maps goes to the incorrect location and jumps to the edited location. So when the Reminders App checks for the input location (Hey Siri remind me to do bla when I get home) it only goes to the incorrect location and sometimes another random Mountain location and never checks for the edit.
This is not the attention to detail Apple is supposedly known for.