Cardiff tech firm: 'We'll pay £100k, but can't get staff'(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Cardiff tech firm: 'We'll pay £100k, but can't get staff'
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-45891002
83 comments
Right. 100k probably included their end of National Insurance, recruiter fees and all that hidden costs that don't end up in a persons final compensation.
That's what I initially thought, but even with my rough estimates of around £8500 in NI from the employer, and around £9-10,000 in recruitment fees (assuming roughly 15% of the first year salary, which is already pretty high) - with all of this rounded up to roughly £20k, that's still a full £20k short of what the article says if they were to hire someone for the maximum £60k a year.
The easy argument is that they're full of shit. My guess is that the only way they can attract people to Cardiff is to raise salaries, but even £60k (which is a good salary for Cardiff) isn't enough to stop people from chasing the big bucks in London. They don't want to pay more than £60k, so their alternative is to complain that salaries aren't enough and that the problem is out of their control.
The easy argument is that they're full of shit. My guess is that the only way they can attract people to Cardiff is to raise salaries, but even £60k (which is a good salary for Cardiff) isn't enough to stop people from chasing the big bucks in London. They don't want to pay more than £60k, so their alternative is to complain that salaries aren't enough and that the problem is out of their control.
I agree with everything you're saying, apart from the very last clause - they made it to the "Most Read" on the BBC News web site, so I think they must be pretty good at advertising themselves!
There was an article last year titled, "I’d Pay You $500k a Year, but You Can’t Do the Work". It said they were looking for "React/Redux specialists, Unity developers, data scientists, and data engineers (proficient with TensorFlow), technical project managers (who used to do the above, but have evolved into managers), and technical account executives". So $500k for React programmers. (Also note the hero image.)
But there was no careers page, no call-to-action to apply, or as far as I could tell any way to contact them at all. Here's what I wrote then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248550
It sounds like today's company is similarly interested in getting some press and maybe influencing immigration policy, not in getting applications.
But there was no careers page, no call-to-action to apply, or as far as I could tell any way to contact them at all. Here's what I wrote then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14248550
It sounds like today's company is similarly interested in getting some press and maybe influencing immigration policy, not in getting applications.
Onboarding and dividing work between 100 engineers is hard. Makes me think of Brooks' law: "Adding human resources to a late software project makes it later." [0]
MyPinPad's careers page [1] lists four positions (Android developer, iOS developer, senior devops engineer, and services developer) with the same "salary up to £60,000 per annum, depending on experience" for each position. The higher salary makes for a good news article (and a good advertisement for their recruiting team), but I wonder if they could increase their application rate by showing the same salary as the one they advertised in the article.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law
[1]: https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/
MyPinPad's careers page [1] lists four positions (Android developer, iOS developer, senior devops engineer, and services developer) with the same "salary up to £60,000 per annum, depending on experience" for each position. The higher salary makes for a good news article (and a good advertisement for their recruiting team), but I wonder if they could increase their application rate by showing the same salary as the one they advertised in the article.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law
[1]: https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/
Brooks' Law: "nine women can't make a baby in one month."
When firing duds, no women will ever get pregnant!
On a similar note, putting "Pay based on experience" also limits your application pool. Tell people what you are willing START the pay rate at.
Depends on how your work and code base is organized.
In my pair programming jobs, we've usually been able to onboard people to be fully productive in a few weeks.
In my pair programming jobs, we've usually been able to onboard people to be fully productive in a few weeks.
In the article they say they are offering London salaries. Fine. But Cardiff is not the same as London!
London is huge comapred to Cardiff. Cardiff has about 500,000 people in its urban area compared to 10,000,000 in London, and Cardiff is about 30 square miles compared to almost 700 square miles for London [1]. As such London just has a lot more going on - theatre, museums, nightlife, restaurants, sports, shopping, meet-ups, career-possibilities, transport, galleries... you name it there is more of it in London, and its also generally all very good or even world-class quality. Sure Cardiff has some stuff going on and has its own cultural & social activities, but it is in no way even in the same league as London by any stretch.
As a result you're not going to lure someone to Cardiff by just matching London salaries - who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? You have to offer them something above and beyond. Not everyone likes hiking & nature, and I'd wager that most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London.
Perhaps offer salaries that are more than London and then see if the applications start rolling in?
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London
London is huge comapred to Cardiff. Cardiff has about 500,000 people in its urban area compared to 10,000,000 in London, and Cardiff is about 30 square miles compared to almost 700 square miles for London [1]. As such London just has a lot more going on - theatre, museums, nightlife, restaurants, sports, shopping, meet-ups, career-possibilities, transport, galleries... you name it there is more of it in London, and its also generally all very good or even world-class quality. Sure Cardiff has some stuff going on and has its own cultural & social activities, but it is in no way even in the same league as London by any stretch.
As a result you're not going to lure someone to Cardiff by just matching London salaries - who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? You have to offer them something above and beyond. Not everyone likes hiking & nature, and I'd wager that most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London.
Perhaps offer salaries that are more than London and then see if the applications start rolling in?
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London
You're projecting your own perception onto others.
Let me raise a counterpoint, the cost of living in Cardiff is vastly less than the, frankly, over inflated prices in London.
I'm going to reuse your tone here - who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent?
I'd raise another point as well - you're assuming people prefer the art and culture scene in London in comparison to a more local scene in a smaller city where gentrification isn't as ubiquitious. I'd rather live in Glasgow, where anyone can afford to go to a club or gig than London, where such activities are generally reserved for rich kids.
Let me raise a counterpoint, the cost of living in Cardiff is vastly less than the, frankly, over inflated prices in London.
I'm going to reuse your tone here - who would give up Cardiff to go to London to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent?
I'd raise another point as well - you're assuming people prefer the art and culture scene in London in comparison to a more local scene in a smaller city where gentrification isn't as ubiquitious. I'd rather live in Glasgow, where anyone can afford to go to a club or gig than London, where such activities are generally reserved for rich kids.
You're totally correct - its not for everyone (just like Cardiff is not for everyone). London is a big city and comes with big city problems.
However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants.
For what it is worth, in my personal opinion if you are renting on 100K a year, you're Doing It Wrong. I appreciate some people value the flexibility of renting though. Saving up for a mortgage deposit with £100K a year salary and equity grants etc should be no problems, and mortgage repayments are usually either equal or substantially lower than rental rates for equivalent properties. Even in London, a commute of just 25 minutes from central London [2] you can buy a one bed flat for 250-300K which is very affordable on a 100K a year salary. [1]
1 - https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?loca...
2 - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Tra...
However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants.
For what it is worth, in my personal opinion if you are renting on 100K a year, you're Doing It Wrong. I appreciate some people value the flexibility of renting though. Saving up for a mortgage deposit with £100K a year salary and equity grants etc should be no problems, and mortgage repayments are usually either equal or substantially lower than rental rates for equivalent properties. Even in London, a commute of just 25 minutes from central London [2] you can buy a one bed flat for 250-300K which is very affordable on a 100K a year salary. [1]
1 - https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?loca...
2 - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Tra...
.. or for 250k you could get a four bedroom detached house in Cardiff: https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69624...
> However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants.
That's a big inference. Is there not a talent deficit in London too?
It's hard hiring people anywhere right now.
That's a big inference. Is there not a talent deficit in London too?
It's hard hiring people anywhere right now.
For housing = yes it is crazy.
For loads of clubs - you'll pay the same. There are hundreds of tiny clubs in London - many offering free or very cheap entry every night of the week. Yes London has a few expensive clubs (that are generally rubbish once you are in if you aren't paying for champagne) - it has loads of great places to see live music, comedy, djs and acts for pocket money. Just pick up a copy and Time Out and you'll def find soemthing you are interested in... 'If one is bored of London...'
For loads of clubs - you'll pay the same. There are hundreds of tiny clubs in London - many offering free or very cheap entry every night of the week. Yes London has a few expensive clubs (that are generally rubbish once you are in if you aren't paying for champagne) - it has loads of great places to see live music, comedy, djs and acts for pocket money. Just pick up a copy and Time Out and you'll def find soemthing you are interested in... 'If one is bored of London...'
I'd seriously consider it, and I think a lot of other people would as well. People who are a bit older, a bit less sociable, or have families? Absolutely. Alternatively, new graduates who've not settled anywhere yet but would really like some money thrown at their overdraft.
> most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London
Everybody is impacted by high property prices in London, except the tax exiles with the empty mansions. I moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh and benefited greatly from the lower property prices.
However, as others point out, this seems to be fraudulent advertising: all the advertised positions are £60k. Where's the £100k coming from? Did they only have one post at that range which is now filled?
There does seem to be a sudden hiring boom going on in the UK, which I'm curious about - applicants are hard to find and advertised salaries are up. Alternatively is this the consequence of Brexit-induced skilled staff supply shortages?
(Pet peeve: it should be mandatory for job adverts to post a salary range, even if it's a really wide one)
> most people in these salary ranges aren't that badly impacted by high property prices in London
Everybody is impacted by high property prices in London, except the tax exiles with the empty mansions. I moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh and benefited greatly from the lower property prices.
However, as others point out, this seems to be fraudulent advertising: all the advertised positions are £60k. Where's the £100k coming from? Did they only have one post at that range which is now filled?
There does seem to be a sudden hiring boom going on in the UK, which I'm curious about - applicants are hard to find and advertised salaries are up. Alternatively is this the consequence of Brexit-induced skilled staff supply shortages?
(Pet peeve: it should be mandatory for job adverts to post a salary range, even if it's a really wide one)
I found Cambridge salaries weren't wonderful in general, though I'm aware that's probably changing, and there are exceptions. How have you found Edinburgh salaries compare? Obviously I don't expect data, just an anecdote would satisfy my curiosity.
Or this is the same kind on insanity that you see with the Bay Area? Or hell, even Vancouver.
Everyone's rushing there for the same reason, with all the cultural things that's suppose to be going on in the big city, only to find that the high CoL make life actually quite a bit more difficult to enjoy.
It gentrifies the area quickly, the commute is either long (in the case of the bay area) or being one of the sardine in the Tube.
The disposable income ends up being lower, so there's less money to actually enjoy the things that actually attracted people to the cities.
Everyone's rushing there for the same reason, with all the cultural things that's suppose to be going on in the big city, only to find that the high CoL make life actually quite a bit more difficult to enjoy.
It gentrifies the area quickly, the commute is either long (in the case of the bay area) or being one of the sardine in the Tube.
The disposable income ends up being lower, so there's less money to actually enjoy the things that actually attracted people to the cities.
100%. London has become a tragedy of the commons.
> who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience?
Me. But then I'd much prefer to have lots of open space around and orders of magnitude fewer people.
Me. But then I'd much prefer to have lots of open space around and orders of magnitude fewer people.
Also Cardiff doesn't have London's high cost of living and ridiculous property prices. So if you get a London equivalent wage then you have a lot more disposable income if you live and work in Cardiff.
Every other industry manages to find hires in Cardiff on less than London salaries, and programmers aren't that special in terms of cultural needs. A London salary in Cardiff is a lot more disposable income than a London salary in London (or an owned large house rather than a rented apartment), and plenty of programmers that wouldn't start their search for their next job in Cardiff would see that as tempting if they were aware the company was keen to hire people like them at London salaries.
Of course that's part of the reason companies spend budget on headhunters rather than extra salary...
Of course that's part of the reason companies spend budget on headhunters rather than extra salary...
+1 hour commutes on the tube, rude people, diesel fumes, outrageous rental prices. I could go on but I'm at work. This country cares WAY too much about London.
Or even better than just increasing salaries.. Let people work remote. Then people who want to live in the big city can (without the commute, which is a plus!) and people that want to live in the small town can, plus everyone in between. What part of being a programmer means they 'need' to be in the office in that town?
> you name it there is more of it in London
Welsh speakers?
(Probably not a big factor in recruiting, but still...)
Welsh speakers?
(Probably not a big factor in recruiting, but still...)
> London is huge compared to Cardiff
Yes, so many more rats running the same race on the same overcrowded facilities? Cardiff is a nice city and the same London money is worth two times more there.
Yes, so many more rats running the same race on the same overcrowded facilities? Cardiff is a nice city and the same London money is worth two times more there.
Judging from the Wikipedia, Cardiff metro area has about the same population as Tel Aviv, which still manages to host one of the world's hottest start up scenes.
The Tel Aviv metro area is closer to 4m people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Dan
It's not a matter of population. Tel Aviv is probably the most interesting and happening city in that whole great region, while Cardiff isn't.
Not to mention e.g. transport links, and Brexit.
Although your chances of dying in Cardiff are probably less than in Tel Aviv.
I looked that up back in the day when I had to go to Tel Aviv for work during the time of the suicide bombings (2004/2005):
The chance of dying a violent death in Israel is much lower than in the US.
Cardiff is probably lower than the average of the US, of course. And Tel Aviv may be higher than the average of Israel. But AFAIK, suicide bombing on regular civilian places inside Israel hasn’t been a thing for quite a while.
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/...
The chance of dying a violent death in Israel is much lower than in the US.
Cardiff is probably lower than the average of the US, of course. And Tel Aviv may be higher than the average of Israel. But AFAIK, suicide bombing on regular civilian places inside Israel hasn’t been a thing for quite a while.
https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/...
Fair point. I'd argue it is still a tinderbox and with current middle East political situation it could easily find itself without immediate allies (or at least people who don't want to immediately destroy them). If for example the house of Saud fell, it is unlikely to be replaced by anything that would be as friendly toward the US, and by extension Israel, as the House of Saud currently is.
I don't see any Middle Eastern countries invading a nuclear power any time soon.
Doesn't need to be an invasion, if Saudi regime fell it would likely be replaced with something very religious and would be happy to support Hezbollah or any number of groups that would attack Israel and keep themselves distant. Plus religious nuts are just that, nuts and don't always consider the repercussions for those left behind.
Their career page says 60k, though.
If it weren't out of area of expertise, Wales is quite beautiful. And I almost understand Rhod Gilbert.
If it weren't out of area of expertise, Wales is quite beautiful. And I almost understand Rhod Gilbert.
I wouldn't be able to stop myself from saying "way-als" in a mocking accent. Just like how I can't stop myself saying "moo-ney" when I hear it from a Dubliner.
If you are laid off in London your next job will be in London and you don't have to move house. If you are laid off in Cardiff the next job is in Bristol, Birmingham or Milton Keynes. Property prices don't figure into the equation so much because no one is going to buy in a town where the tech scene is small.
Up to 60k p/a[0] for a Senior DevOps engineer is not exactly London wages when the exact same job can start at or above 80k. [1]
Have they also thought that not every engineer lives in (or wants to move to) Cardiff?
What is their remote working policy? Do they even have one?
[0]: https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/
[1]: https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/jobs/permanent/senior-devops-engine...
Have they also thought that not every engineer lives in (or wants to move to) Cardiff?
What is their remote working policy? Do they even have one?
[0]: https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/
[1]: https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/jobs/permanent/senior-devops-engine...
MyPinPad needs 100 software engineers in Cardiff to roll out a new product
Roll it out, or actually get it written? What kind of product needs 100 additional engineers to launch?
Roll it out, or actually get it written? What kind of product needs 100 additional engineers to launch?
They just raised £15 million in series B, enough to pay those 100 engineers £100k each for... 1.5 years, assuming zero overhead and no other expenses?
Edit: also assuming no revenue, so I don't know. Is that normal startup math?
Double edit: Crunchbase revenue estimate is $20.9M.
Edit: also assuming no revenue, so I don't know. Is that normal startup math?
Double edit: Crunchbase revenue estimate is $20.9M.
The kind of product that needs a lot of bespoke customization for each customer.
Bad Title. Actual article says "up to 100k", as in maximum. I assume most people don't get that offer.
Their job posts say "up to 60k", so it's not just a bad title. It's a blatant lie.
The main question, for me, is what point the article is trying to prove. The cynic in me believes that it's an effort to drive down permanent developer salaries by saying "we already tried to offer above market rates and it didn't work, so we're bringing them down again".
From a .NET perspective, I think you'd be lucky to get £100k a year in a contract role, let alone as a permanent employee. With that said, if you want to earn more than £50k in the south west, your only choice is large multinational company (which are mostly in London), management, or contracting.
The main question, for me, is what point the article is trying to prove. The cynic in me believes that it's an effort to drive down permanent developer salaries by saying "we already tried to offer above market rates and it didn't work, so we're bringing them down again".
From a .NET perspective, I think you'd be lucky to get £100k a year in a contract role, let alone as a permanent employee. With that said, if you want to earn more than £50k in the south west, your only choice is large multinational company (which are mostly in London), management, or contracting.
So.... pay more then. Does the city say "we'll pay 100k but can't get quants"? Or do they pay market rate?
If they can't pay more, perhaps other people have found ways to make more profitable use of their engineers' time, in which case their business is not viable.
If they can't pay more, perhaps other people have found ways to make more profitable use of their engineers' time, in which case their business is not viable.
This reads like an advertorial. Does the BBC have some interest in getting tech workers to Wales?
The company just raised a series B. Might be part of a PR push.
No, the BBC has an anti-Brexit agenda.
That’s a ludicrous statement. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back it up?
Evidence you'd accept, probably not, although you can simply observe the kinds of stories they choose to promote and arrive at a reasonable conclusion.
In other words, no.
Since the BBC is routinely and equally criticised for being both pro- and anti-Brexit, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s more likely to be neither.
Since the BBC is routinely and equally criticised for being both pro- and anti-Brexit, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s more likely to be neither.
[deleted]
OK, you have no evidence either so let's accept it's a point of opinion?
They didn't mention it in the article but I wouldn't be surprised if it crossed their mind.
Well I gave you an upvote, because it's true.
I see articles like this and they always seem to overlook the solution: hire remotely. Oh sure, it isn't what they want and yes it introduces complexity they might not want, but it is the answer. People want to live where they want to live. Some might be lured by more money. Some will recognize that there are clusters of jobs in certain urban areas and be unwilling to move to other locations as a result. Not in one of those prime tech clusters? Just accept that you need to hire where the people are, not where you want them to be. Furthermore, there's an irony of tech firms making money over the internet, but believing all their staff must be physically located together.
Maybe you should allow remote work?
As a tech worker who started close to Cardiff i've slowly moved down the M4 as my career has progressed. Jobs over 60k are rare outside of London - > Bristol and all towns in between.
Engineers willing to move for their job would normally move to silicon valley and get offered $150k, and much lower taxes.
Even at £100k (and ~45% tax!), you're only going to get people who either already live in Cardiff, or are happy to relocate to Wales, but not to relocate to the USA (not all that many people).
Even at £100k (and ~45% tax!), you're only going to get people who either already live in Cardiff, or are happy to relocate to Wales, but not to relocate to the USA (not all that many people).
I am continually amazed at the cynical attempt by hiring managers to try to pretend that the laws of supply and demand shouldn't apply to non-exec level staff. If you can't hire the people you want for what you're offering that should be a signal to pay more, not to whine that you can't force your idea of a reasonable wage on others.
So while there is validity to this, my experience hiring staff is that there is genuinely a lack of skilled tech workers in the UK, especially at senior levels - it’s not just down to salary requirements.
Sure - as demand goes up and supply is constrained, salaries have to rise. But it’s more complex than that - first, salary increases don’t magically increase supply. There’s a long lag time between salary rises and increased supply. On top of that, there’s a particular dearth of senior engineers. It’s easier to recruit people with less experience, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that and training them up - but this in itself takes quite a lot of investment and can be difficult in a small team. And third, the UK’s shitty immigration process and ongoing Brexit catastrophe make it more difficult to recruit developers from other countries.
At some point, it becomes economically infeasible to run a functioning business as the staff you need become more expensive to hire. It’s good for people in that market, but it can also make it difficult to run a sustainable small business, and it’s okay to call attention to that. Like most things, it’s a bit of a balancing act.
Sure - as demand goes up and supply is constrained, salaries have to rise. But it’s more complex than that - first, salary increases don’t magically increase supply. There’s a long lag time between salary rises and increased supply. On top of that, there’s a particular dearth of senior engineers. It’s easier to recruit people with less experience, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that and training them up - but this in itself takes quite a lot of investment and can be difficult in a small team. And third, the UK’s shitty immigration process and ongoing Brexit catastrophe make it more difficult to recruit developers from other countries.
At some point, it becomes economically infeasible to run a functioning business as the staff you need become more expensive to hire. It’s good for people in that market, but it can also make it difficult to run a sustainable small business, and it’s okay to call attention to that. Like most things, it’s a bit of a balancing act.
I'm not sure I find this convincing. There are lots and lots of skilled tech workers in the UK that want permanent roles, but the really good ones already have well paid jobs, usually either for the finance sector or with Google/Facebook/etc. £100k to relocate to Cardiff isn't even slightly tempting to these people (source: I'm one of them).
For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs[0][1]. As demand for good tech staff rises this is starting to equalise. This is a trend that's unlikely to reverse, and IMO this is a good thing.
I appreciate that if you're trying to run a small business it's frustrating that you can't get the staff you want at the price you want to pay, but the solution isn't to hope that people will work for less you make you richer. You'll need to either adjust your budget, your expectations, or offer something that their current job doesn't give them (share of the business (with the same liquidation prefs that you have), or 100% remote, or something else along these lines). If you really can't do any of those things, then maybe your business just can't afford what you want and you'll need to hire more junior people and train them up.
I've been on both sides of this fence, lots, and I've never once felt there was a shortage of good tech people in the UK, or found it hard to find smart candidates, it's just that the good ones expect to get paid well for the skills they have spent many years honing.
0: e.g. in Zurich finance and tech are compensated similarly, in London finance gets significantly more (sources: https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-sa... https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...) 1: http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salar...
For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs[0][1]. As demand for good tech staff rises this is starting to equalise. This is a trend that's unlikely to reverse, and IMO this is a good thing.
I appreciate that if you're trying to run a small business it's frustrating that you can't get the staff you want at the price you want to pay, but the solution isn't to hope that people will work for less you make you richer. You'll need to either adjust your budget, your expectations, or offer something that their current job doesn't give them (share of the business (with the same liquidation prefs that you have), or 100% remote, or something else along these lines). If you really can't do any of those things, then maybe your business just can't afford what you want and you'll need to hire more junior people and train them up.
I've been on both sides of this fence, lots, and I've never once felt there was a shortage of good tech people in the UK, or found it hard to find smart candidates, it's just that the good ones expect to get paid well for the skills they have spent many years honing.
0: e.g. in Zurich finance and tech are compensated similarly, in London finance gets significantly more (sources: https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-sa... https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...) 1: http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salar...
For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs
Hang on, I think that's a bit off – you're comparing the UK average with the Zurich average. If you compare the London finance sector wage with software, the latter is higher: https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...
I get that the solution isn't to underpay as a business, but it does seem reasonable to look at ways to get more people into the industry, if the situation is at a point where it's not economically feasible to run businesses because of the cost of staff. We do the same with workers in other sectors, after all.
Hang on, I think that's a bit off – you're comparing the UK average with the Zurich average. If you compare the London finance sector wage with software, the latter is higher: https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-eng...
I get that the solution isn't to underpay as a business, but it does seem reasonable to look at ways to get more people into the industry, if the situation is at a point where it's not economically feasible to run businesses because of the cost of staff. We do the same with workers in other sectors, after all.
Okay, my other link turned out not to be London-specific, sorry about that, so by that metric it now looks like they're on a par, which is good news, as they didn't use to be, by my recollection.
Certainly the comparative salary for the same tech-related position in London vs places like Zurich, NY, SF, etc seems lower, but I don't have data to support that which I can publicly share, so I guess I can't prove that point.
I'd suggest that if you feel there aren't enough people even at very junior levels, then maybe there's a problem and we should look at why not enough people are in the industry. If there are plenty of junior or poorly skilled people but not enough highly skilled people, then it's more likely that you aren't paying enough (or aren't advertising in the right ways to find them). My perception is that it's the latter, but I don't really have anything beyond my own experience to support that.
Certainly the comparative salary for the same tech-related position in London vs places like Zurich, NY, SF, etc seems lower, but I don't have data to support that which I can publicly share, so I guess I can't prove that point.
I'd suggest that if you feel there aren't enough people even at very junior levels, then maybe there's a problem and we should look at why not enough people are in the industry. If there are plenty of junior or poorly skilled people but not enough highly skilled people, then it's more likely that you aren't paying enough (or aren't advertising in the right ways to find them). My perception is that it's the latter, but I don't really have anything beyond my own experience to support that.
Yes but you missed out on why they are doing this. This "whining" is actually about changing public perception such that business can take action to widen its access to a larger pool of skilled workers. The more competitive the talent market the more they can keep a larger share of their profits.
Job offers aren't a liquid market. Publicity is still needed or people won't find out about the job. It can be hard to tell whether the problem is with the job offer or word not getting out.
Getting a story in the BBC and on Hacker News might help, though.
Getting a story in the BBC and on Hacker News might help, though.
Exactly. Actions that spread information make the market more efficient, which is good for the business, their customers and the economy at large, if perhaps not for existing employees.
The same goes for skills/training/policy. Getting the word out that programming is a comfortable, well-paid job that requires no formal education is a huge net win.
Really I can't understand the grandparent's post... The article says "We tried paying more and it's not working" and their answer is "Try paying even more."
The same goes for skills/training/policy. Getting the word out that programming is a comfortable, well-paid job that requires no formal education is a huge net win.
Really I can't understand the grandparent's post... The article says "We tried paying more and it's not working" and their answer is "Try paying even more."
True. On the other hand, there are hard limits to what companies can afford to pay their employees. Related to the same supply and demand laws.
I think your following the logic of the minimum wage laws. In this case however the wages are not fixed but purely determined by the market. Given that markets are optimizers of capital allocation, if a company cannot be profitable at the current values (relating to input and output) then it should not exist.
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Among the insightful humorous essays of C. Northcote Parkinson (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law ) there's one about wording job ads that says:
"Only a little thought is needed to convince us that the perfect advertisement would attract only one reply and that from the right person."
"Only a little thought is needed to convince us that the perfect advertisement would attract only one reply and that from the right person."
Can't get staff? What a shame. Would you consider starting some kind of training policy?
Training? These days? Not gonna happen.
If it does, it is in elite organizations under the wing of highly principled bosses who are able shield their staff from project-management and organization-wide performance-metrics bullshit.
If it does, it is in elite organizations under the wing of highly principled bosses who are able shield their staff from project-management and organization-wide performance-metrics bullshit.
Same for almost every industry, training is only paid for if it's to fulfill some legal requirement such as health and safety courses and such.
Their website currently says "up to £60k", and in my experience companies that say "up to" will rarely go to that number unless the candidate is very/over qualified, in which case that candidate has zero potential for growth and will have a hard time getting an annual raise unless things go brilliantly.
MyPinPad look like a reasonably large company, so their salary offering right now is probably average or above, but the article itself is absolute crap. If MyPinPad were to offer £100k for their Services Developer role I'd beat their door down for an interview. It's double what I'm getting in Bristol right now, I have C# and non-CLR expeirence, and the commute would be worth it. Hell, for that money I could drive in, pay an obscene amount for parking and still be ahead!
I don't buy for a second that they have failed to get devs in when offering £100k. Either they're full of shit, or they are terrible at advertising roles.