Ask HN: How to learn a language on the side in 2018?
28 comments
I'm currently learning danish (and living in Denmark, so kinda cheating). I spent about 6 months trying out all the new apps, and have gone back to Anki.
Back in the day I learned Japanese to nativish fluency using the Core Japanese vocabulary decks. Basically 10000 words all with example sentences and human audio recordings.
After seeing that many sentences, new grammar has only so many places to hide. It's also a lot more fun to practice speaking a language when you have the vocab to talk about basically anything.
I built a similarly formatted Anki deck using tatoeba.org, some web scraping and google translate.
This type of structured rote learning works for me, but it's not "fun". I write out every word and all is conjugations on paper, and have notebooks full of just words. Unfortunately none of the "fun" methods work for me, but it is motivating that in 198 days I will have 4000 words of danish.
Back in the day I learned Japanese to nativish fluency using the Core Japanese vocabulary decks. Basically 10000 words all with example sentences and human audio recordings.
After seeing that many sentences, new grammar has only so many places to hide. It's also a lot more fun to practice speaking a language when you have the vocab to talk about basically anything.
I built a similarly formatted Anki deck using tatoeba.org, some web scraping and google translate.
This type of structured rote learning works for me, but it's not "fun". I write out every word and all is conjugations on paper, and have notebooks full of just words. Unfortunately none of the "fun" methods work for me, but it is motivating that in 198 days I will have 4000 words of danish.
Fluentu.com has all the graded material you will ever need in French in terms of video input. Duolingo isn’t actually that good. I suggest cloze deletion in Anki, not vocabulary decks. Read the Little Prince in English, make a cloze deletion deck of the French original and listen to the French audiobook. Find a teacher or language partner on italki or languageexchange.com or something. Read Tintin or Asterix in French. Go.
Don’t learn from vocabulary decks after the first 1000 words. Use cloze deletion to learn it in context. This helps so much with grammar.
Honestly I just wish baselang.com wasn’t exclusively in Spanish. It’s a screamingly good deal if you actually use it, $200 a month for one on one professional language teachers, up to four hours a day per person and a good curriculum.
Don’t learn from vocabulary decks after the first 1000 words. Use cloze deletion to learn it in context. This helps so much with grammar.
Honestly I just wish baselang.com wasn’t exclusively in Spanish. It’s a screamingly good deal if you actually use it, $200 a month for one on one professional language teachers, up to four hours a day per person and a good curriculum.
You already have more than enough tools there to learn a language.
But I'd like to introduce an idea that I think is really important: when you learn a language there is no finish line.
You'll never get to the top of the mountain. You'll never beat the game.
What does that mean for your learning? Well, if your goal is to learn Italian to understand authentic recipes, start reading recipe books today. If you're learning Korean to sing your favourite k-pop hits, start with karaoke.
Too many people start learning a language with stale and old textbooks while saying to themselves "I'll do the thing I really like when I get good enough."
"Good enough" is a mirage in the desert. You'll never get there so do it now!
But I'd like to introduce an idea that I think is really important: when you learn a language there is no finish line.
You'll never get to the top of the mountain. You'll never beat the game.
What does that mean for your learning? Well, if your goal is to learn Italian to understand authentic recipes, start reading recipe books today. If you're learning Korean to sing your favourite k-pop hits, start with karaoke.
Too many people start learning a language with stale and old textbooks while saying to themselves "I'll do the thing I really like when I get good enough."
"Good enough" is a mirage in the desert. You'll never get there so do it now!
Go to iTalki (https://italki.com) like already mentioned and do a couple sessions with different teachers. These are mostly not professional language teachers so their rate is lower. They are native speakers all, usually college students, who are doing this for a side hustle. Some may even offer a free 30-min trial. The goal is to find someone who you like practicing with and has a teaching style that it is compatible with yours. For me, I just wanted to practice talking and some of these tutors had a whole formal lesson plan. If your goal is conversation, focusing on conversation is better than doing grammar lessons.
There is no substitute for practicing with a native speaker who will not become frustrated/impatient/annoyed with you (like a friend). At a minimum, do two one hour sessions a week. Three is better and five would be amazing (assuming two or three different tutors).
Change your listening habits. Start to listen to audio in your desired language. Music, even podcasts. You probably will not understand much to begin with and the goal is to start picking out sounds, syllables, and word and phrase boundaries. Eventually you will recognize connector words, short phrases. Keep with it. Ignore those who say you need 95% knowledge of the words being said to understand. Your goal is not to understand what is being said completely but to train your ear.
Eventually you will realize correct grammar is what makes you intermediate level. But no hurry, mistakes are how you learn.
Good luck! Be patient with yourself. Language learning is not an automatic process after childhood.
There is no substitute for practicing with a native speaker who will not become frustrated/impatient/annoyed with you (like a friend). At a minimum, do two one hour sessions a week. Three is better and five would be amazing (assuming two or three different tutors).
Change your listening habits. Start to listen to audio in your desired language. Music, even podcasts. You probably will not understand much to begin with and the goal is to start picking out sounds, syllables, and word and phrase boundaries. Eventually you will recognize connector words, short phrases. Keep with it. Ignore those who say you need 95% knowledge of the words being said to understand. Your goal is not to understand what is being said completely but to train your ear.
Eventually you will realize correct grammar is what makes you intermediate level. But no hurry, mistakes are how you learn.
Good luck! Be patient with yourself. Language learning is not an automatic process after childhood.
I'll put in a word for iTalki as well. I just tried a teacher out and started scheduling lessons. One year later my Spanish is miles ahead.
I'm not motivated enough to do any homework or studying, but as long as I schedule those lessons and attend I'm on track to B2 proficiency by the end of next year or sooner.
I'm not motivated enough to do any homework or studying, but as long as I schedule those lessons and attend I'm on track to B2 proficiency by the end of next year or sooner.
I think you are missing the overall picture. Instead of the list of apps, focus on the elements of language learning in general.
Eg. if you need to be able to communicate with other people in foreign language, the only way to learn such skill is to actually speak with people using the target language. There is no AI good enough to learn you this. You can try to meet some people speaking the language, pay for the teacher, or if there are no such people in your local area, using videoconferencing over the internet. When you figure which case applies to you, then you can try to look for an app to help you with that (eg. https://www.meetup.com/find/language/ for finding local groups or https://www.italki.com/home for finding a language teacher over internet).
It's also important to understand that there is no silver bulet, and many different approaches exists and nobody will tell you what is right exactly for you. That said, you should be trying to focus on list of approaches which are proven to work, and try to figure out which you will use. You can do that by searching for the description of language learning process from people who learned few languages already.
Eg. if you need to be able to communicate with other people in foreign language, the only way to learn such skill is to actually speak with people using the target language. There is no AI good enough to learn you this. You can try to meet some people speaking the language, pay for the teacher, or if there are no such people in your local area, using videoconferencing over the internet. When you figure which case applies to you, then you can try to look for an app to help you with that (eg. https://www.meetup.com/find/language/ for finding local groups or https://www.italki.com/home for finding a language teacher over internet).
It's also important to understand that there is no silver bulet, and many different approaches exists and nobody will tell you what is right exactly for you. That said, you should be trying to focus on list of approaches which are proven to work, and try to figure out which you will use. You can do that by searching for the description of language learning process from people who learned few languages already.
thanks, italki looks promising
Audiobooks and movies where you already know the source material verbatim (Harry Potter, Star Wars). Just watch a few times with the language track you wish to learn. And you will pick up phrases right away.
Apart from full immersion, engaging with native speakers on Twitter can help conversationally. Also a great way to pick up modern slang and culture.
Make a habit of reading the major daily newspaper online as well. They report the same wire news stories. So you can usually infer meaning just from the content. If there is a live broadcast news stream online, keep it on in the background.
And start early in life. I wish there was mandatory Mandarin for every six year old out there ;)
Apart from full immersion, engaging with native speakers on Twitter can help conversationally. Also a great way to pick up modern slang and culture.
Make a habit of reading the major daily newspaper online as well. They report the same wire news stories. So you can usually infer meaning just from the content. If there is a live broadcast news stream online, keep it on in the background.
And start early in life. I wish there was mandatory Mandarin for every six year old out there ;)
If you're busy with a job (and you're posting on HN), you probably have enough money for a tutor. Language tutoring over skype is cheap -- you'll get a (human) chatbot adjusted to your level that moves between tools. And it replaces and is superior to going to a class.
If the prospect of practicing with a human makes you nervous -- well, that anxiety is in proportion to how fast your neurons will be motivated to reconfigure themselves for their new knowledge!
If the prospect of practicing with a human makes you nervous -- well, that anxiety is in proportion to how fast your neurons will be motivated to reconfigure themselves for their new knowledge!
This resonates with me since I used to have a teacher come to my office twice a week for a one hour lesson.
I always found the actual learning experience quite difficult but, over time, our casual chats moved from nearly all english to nearly all spanish simply because I felt comfortable enough that if I got words wrong or had a mental block it didn't matter since she would sense what I was trying to say and help me along.
As you suggest, I found the stuff I had anxiety about at first was the stuff I learned and remembered most. The simple stuff I learned with not much effort is the stuff I need to keep revising.
I always found the actual learning experience quite difficult but, over time, our casual chats moved from nearly all english to nearly all spanish simply because I felt comfortable enough that if I got words wrong or had a mental block it didn't matter since she would sense what I was trying to say and help me along.
As you suggest, I found the stuff I had anxiety about at first was the stuff I learned and remembered most. The simple stuff I learned with not much effort is the stuff I need to keep revising.
Is that really how nervousness works?
I find Memrise to be what duolingo ought to have been. I used it to learn about 800 words of portuguese which I then used to travel around parts of portugal where english was rare. I wasn't having in depth conversations but I could ask for and understand directions, order food, go through stores, etc. I also did some speaking with people on hellolingo and a couple lessons on iTalki which were both a big help.
My main gripe is that there aren't any places in the current memrise implementation to use the memorization in practice. It would be great if they would add a "test your knowledge" part for each section where each of the vocab words you just learned are used in ways you haven't seen or combined with stuff you have already learned. I think that's the one thing it is missing to make it a top notch app.
Otherwise, I've learned that doing grammar exercises isn't really that valuable until you have a lot of vocabulary and speaking experience (at least for me). memorization and speaking are much more valuable initially.
My main gripe is that there aren't any places in the current memrise implementation to use the memorization in practice. It would be great if they would add a "test your knowledge" part for each section where each of the vocab words you just learned are used in ways you haven't seen or combined with stuff you have already learned. I think that's the one thing it is missing to make it a top notch app.
Otherwise, I've learned that doing grammar exercises isn't really that valuable until you have a lot of vocabulary and speaking experience (at least for me). memorization and speaking are much more valuable initially.
Currently learning Tagalog.
Here's what really helped me: watching Tagalog movies. Here's what happens - you listen and over time you get to recognize certain words. You can then look up the words for meaning. Over time you can build up vocab and pick up phrases. Supplement with some book work. I've also found some language lessons on YouTube quite useful. It's a slow process though!
I have a similar process with music videos. Try this one for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ascys0eBlqw
Tagalog with slight rap! If you can get some of the rap you are doing well. I got a lot of useful words/phrases from this! Also useful because it has the tagalog words displayed too.
Really fun way to learn...
Salamat!
Here's what really helped me: watching Tagalog movies. Here's what happens - you listen and over time you get to recognize certain words. You can then look up the words for meaning. Over time you can build up vocab and pick up phrases. Supplement with some book work. I've also found some language lessons on YouTube quite useful. It's a slow process though!
I have a similar process with music videos. Try this one for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ascys0eBlqw
Tagalog with slight rap! If you can get some of the rap you are doing well. I got a lot of useful words/phrases from this! Also useful because it has the tagalog words displayed too.
Really fun way to learn...
Salamat!
An engaging story to follow.
The most effective learning materials I encountered had this.
At the beginner level, two older examples:
"French in Action"
"Destinos"
Once you have some level of fluency, you can pick your own stories to follow.
Also, before this, you can use subtitles on interesting programs. A lot of language learning is the sound of the language. And you will start to recognize parts of what's being said. Well-written, contemporary programs can also supply a lot of everyday speech and idioms that are short-changed in many learning materials.
Just be aware that subtitles often deviate significantly from what's being said. Space and reading speed constraints, but also the quality and effort of the interpretor(s). Even in languages I know less well, I not infrequently encounter and identify subtitles that do not choose the idiom most at parity with the idiom or expression originally used.
The most effective learning materials I encountered had this.
At the beginner level, two older examples:
"French in Action"
"Destinos"
Once you have some level of fluency, you can pick your own stories to follow.
Also, before this, you can use subtitles on interesting programs. A lot of language learning is the sound of the language. And you will start to recognize parts of what's being said. Well-written, contemporary programs can also supply a lot of everyday speech and idioms that are short-changed in many learning materials.
Just be aware that subtitles often deviate significantly from what's being said. Space and reading speed constraints, but also the quality and effort of the interpretor(s). Even in languages I know less well, I not infrequently encounter and identify subtitles that do not choose the idiom most at parity with the idiom or expression originally used.
I think it's more important to keep up motivation rather than finding a silver bullet. To me enjoyment is more important than efficiency while learning in general.
In my case, I'm learning Japanese. From the get go I knew it's a long process to reach real fluency.
I began with a traditional teacher based course. I learned basic grammar, which was really great. What I didn't like was the pressure to perform on time. Juggling a job and a billion projects made it kinda difficult to perform week after week.
After the course was over I had a big sigh of relief; I'm an engineering grad, but this was something completely different. I'm used to study more esoteric, not as applicable stuff as real languages.
I went to Japan that summer and figured out that I didn't understand anything. I already expected this. Listening was the big issue, and reading, and speaking...
Reading is my key to learning. I remember learning how to read Swedish (my native language) by reading subtitles to James Bond movies. That was my beginning of learning English as well. Japanese is pretty dang hard to read due to the thousands of symbols you need to know.
At the same time of learning Japanese I began learning Javascript. I began building my own tools, catered to my own learning needs. By this process I've been able to create fun web-stuff, and to imprint over 1000 symbols in my thick noggin. Now I'm able to understand about 75-80% of the symbols used in writing. I'm finally able to read easier texts and learn vocabulary in a different way than pure memorization.
Tl;dr: you probably don't need fancy chatbots to learn a new language. If you want tools, try building them yourself.
In my case, I'm learning Japanese. From the get go I knew it's a long process to reach real fluency.
I began with a traditional teacher based course. I learned basic grammar, which was really great. What I didn't like was the pressure to perform on time. Juggling a job and a billion projects made it kinda difficult to perform week after week.
After the course was over I had a big sigh of relief; I'm an engineering grad, but this was something completely different. I'm used to study more esoteric, not as applicable stuff as real languages.
I went to Japan that summer and figured out that I didn't understand anything. I already expected this. Listening was the big issue, and reading, and speaking...
Reading is my key to learning. I remember learning how to read Swedish (my native language) by reading subtitles to James Bond movies. That was my beginning of learning English as well. Japanese is pretty dang hard to read due to the thousands of symbols you need to know.
At the same time of learning Japanese I began learning Javascript. I began building my own tools, catered to my own learning needs. By this process I've been able to create fun web-stuff, and to imprint over 1000 symbols in my thick noggin. Now I'm able to understand about 75-80% of the symbols used in writing. I'm finally able to read easier texts and learn vocabulary in a different way than pure memorization.
Tl;dr: you probably don't need fancy chatbots to learn a new language. If you want tools, try building them yourself.
Can you please tell us more about the specific tools you designed and built?
The only one I have online is jlpt.se. I'm a bit conscious about sharing it with people who know code, since it's a bit of a rats nest. The ui is clean, the logic is not..
One of the big things I was missing in other tools was actual input. I've also haven't had any luck with srs, I prefer learning in an ordered list, then shuffling the order.
I implemented an "unstrict" input method. If I input a letter contained in the word it's an accepted answer. This is a very conscious decision. It's really hard to get a nice tempo with a strict input.
The Kanji part is the only part useful according to me. I simply can't learn vocabulary through regular rote memorization. I'm going into the second "phase" of learning, which is reading. Feels like banging my head into a wall most of the time, but eventually I will break through.
One of the big things I was missing in other tools was actual input. I've also haven't had any luck with srs, I prefer learning in an ordered list, then shuffling the order.
I implemented an "unstrict" input method. If I input a letter contained in the word it's an accepted answer. This is a very conscious decision. It's really hard to get a nice tempo with a strict input.
The Kanji part is the only part useful according to me. I simply can't learn vocabulary through regular rote memorization. I'm going into the second "phase" of learning, which is reading. Feels like banging my head into a wall most of the time, but eventually I will break through.
For me languages were learned out of necessity. If possible, my suggestion is to move to a region where the language is spoken. Immerse yourself, perhaps there is a community that speaks the language nearby. Go to their cultural festivities and such.
Second, make mistakes, butcher the language and express yourself without care embarrassment. Don’t focus on 99% mistakes, it’s the 1% you learn and retain that add up over time.
Third, do not learn the language by being in a room full of non-speakers. Grammar can be learned on your own if you wish to get technical.
Lastly, optionally, when ready read books in that language to your level.
Second, make mistakes, butcher the language and express yourself without care embarrassment. Don’t focus on 99% mistakes, it’s the 1% you learn and retain that add up over time.
Third, do not learn the language by being in a room full of non-speakers. Grammar can be learned on your own if you wish to get technical.
Lastly, optionally, when ready read books in that language to your level.
For me, I prefer books (old fashioned as I may be). I have spent the last 4 years learning Chinese. 80% reading and writing. My speaking isn't great, but it is because I can't hear enough.
I read normal books, I also review text books for help and I practice writing characters each day. I also try and write e-mails to co-workers and friends in Chinese as much as possible.
I read normal books, I also review text books for help and I practice writing characters each day. I also try and write e-mails to co-workers and friends in Chinese as much as possible.
Why are you learning this language? Do you have an end goal in mind? A community you'd like to participate in, etc? If you do have one you probably want to structure your learning around it.
Otherwise it's like learning to program without ever working on a project - possible but an uphill battle.
Otherwise it's like learning to program without ever working on a project - possible but an uphill battle.
I wrote Pingtype to help me learn Chinese. The blog describes my failed attempts, and how I finally found a way that works (singing along in church, and reading the Bible every day).
https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html
https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html
Wow, very cool. I thought about blogging in Chinese to help me learning, but I never did. Instead I spend my time reading and writing on paper, every day.
But, is the content you write about true, personal?
But, is the content you write about true, personal?
Any recommendations for French in specific are also welcome!
Once you're past the "basic vocabulary" stage, watch films in French, but with the French subtitles.
I just found a way to display two languages in the youtube subtitles :) https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/two-captions-for-y...
pretty awesome with slow paced documentaries (bit a bit hard to find English and French subs, even when filtering for CC). E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YWXxsJQ4IA
pretty awesome with slow paced documentaries (bit a bit hard to find English and French subs, even when filtering for CC). E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YWXxsJQ4IA
The problem with English subtitles is that you will usually just end up reading the subtitles and not focusing on the audio.
I put the french subtitles first and it works out quite well for me. In any way you have to stay in a learning mode, pause at times to look up a word in the english subtitles, repeat for yourself in your head in the pauses etc.
You might want to try Michel Thomas.
Vocabulary seems to be solved with spaced repetition (anki, super-memo), motivation through gameification (duolingo). But this all feels rather primitive still.
What I miss:
a chat bot adjusted to your level
moving between tools or at least proper spaced repetition in duolingo
proven to be good, live online courses that replace going to a class (this might exist, haven't found it).
systematically matching tandem partners (maybe you can be the native speaker for someone and have a native speaker in the desired language chat with you in return)
good bodies of vokab with audio, sorted most to least frequent, importable to my spaced repetition software of choice
anything else existing that I missed?