Show HN: Songcraft – Online Songwriting Platform and Guitar Tab Builder
63 comments
This is a huge unmet need in the market. I have over 300 guitar parts recorded into iOS Music Memos, which does a decent job of automating the break out of chords played but provides no way to build lyrics on top, note the tabs (which is HUGE, because the next day I always get foggy on how to play what I recorded and a month later have no idea...)
Excited to give this a red hot go!
Excited to give this a red hot go!
As frustrating as it is, you'll be amazed at how much you improve by learning things purely by ear.
Plug in some good headphones and get after it.
Plug in some good headphones and get after it.
I would love for Songcraft to fit into that space to take those ideas to fruition. I've been there with the pile of riffs and parts - I feel your pain!
Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks for checking it out!
Sheet music with a pen?
No one else has to see it so it doesn't have to be pretty
No one else has to see it so it doesn't have to be pretty
Wow nice work, I haven't seen anything quite as well laid out for typical songwriter use. There are some good web apps for handling notation and composition but I haven't found anything as nice as what you just created for songwriters.
Thanks so much! Yeah, there are some great tools for composing, and some good stuff for individual features (RhymeZone, Hookpad, etc). I was surprised that I couldn't find anything quite in this category.
This looks interesting and I'll try it out. I've been using a spreadsheet successfully to store many of these elements:
- one row per bar
- columns for bar number, chords, patch settings or drum patterns, lyrics, notes
Breaking lyrics strictly on the bar initially seems unintuitive, but in practice it works well. Including pre-roll bars means the spreadsheet corresponds exactly to my DAW. As I work through the arrangement and production I'll tweak the spreadsheet and keep it up to date.
I also copy the spreadsheet to a new tab, rearrange and resize it so I can print it out one one page (lyric-heavy tracks take two). There's a bit of messy cutting and pasting in this, but I've got quite quick at it and it means that while recording I can have all this information in front of me without using any screen real estate. When I've finished the last of these printouts, often with scribbled notes all over it, goes into a folder in case I need to do a remix.
I look forward to giving Songcraft a go!
Breaking lyrics strictly on the bar initially seems unintuitive, but in practice it works well. Including pre-roll bars means the spreadsheet corresponds exactly to my DAW. As I work through the arrangement and production I'll tweak the spreadsheet and keep it up to date.
I also copy the spreadsheet to a new tab, rearrange and resize it so I can print it out one one page (lyric-heavy tracks take two). There's a bit of messy cutting and pasting in this, but I've got quite quick at it and it means that while recording I can have all this information in front of me without using any screen real estate. When I've finished the last of these printouts, often with scribbled notes all over it, goes into a folder in case I need to do a remix.
I look forward to giving Songcraft a go!
That's a super interesting process! I haven't heard of using spreadsheets to track this kind of thing. It sounds like you're sort of building a spreadsheet-based lead sheet.
Thanks for checking out Songcraft. Let me know if there are features it's missing that would make it useful for your method!
Thanks for checking out Songcraft. Let me know if there are features it's missing that would make it useful for your method!
You are the man.
This is fantastic. Can't wait to see how this project progresses.
Some random suggestions:
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the ability to add chords outside of the scale. Let's say I want to play an E major chord in an A Minor progression due to a harmonic minor substitution. Is that possible with this tool? It would be cool to be able to add common substitutions or completely random chords too, perhaps in a separate box.
It might also be cool to see the roman numerals along with the chords in the progressions or chord box, but that might be too cluttered.
Regardless, I am an instant fan of this. Great work.
This is fantastic. Can't wait to see how this project progresses.
Some random suggestions:
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see the ability to add chords outside of the scale. Let's say I want to play an E major chord in an A Minor progression due to a harmonic minor substitution. Is that possible with this tool? It would be cool to be able to add common substitutions or completely random chords too, perhaps in a separate box.
It might also be cool to see the roman numerals along with the chords in the progressions or chord box, but that might be too cluttered.
Regardless, I am an instant fan of this. Great work.
You can add any chord you want! Just click anywhere on a chord line and enter the chord you like (or click on an existing chord and type to change it). You will also get recommended chords for that location in your song as part of the autocomplete. The theory tools on the right are just meant as an alternative way to add chords / progressions that sound great with your song, plus some goodies like transposition.
I really do want a way to incorporate roman numerals, especially with the progressions. I need to find a way to do it without cluttering the UI, but I love the idea.
Thanks so much!
I really do want a way to incorporate roman numerals, especially with the progressions. I need to find a way to do it without cluttering the UI, but I love the idea.
Thanks so much!
Oh great! This is truly excellent work. I love the ability to toggle through the chord voicings as well.
This is super cool, and the number of tools you've packed into a single app (metronome, tuner, recording, rhyming dictionary, chord prediction) is really impressive. Great job aiming to be a one-stop shop for songwriters - best of luck with the app! I'll definitely check it out the next time I'm writing a song.
This is a small thing, but hearing chords/music sounds in your demo video (not just the voice-over) would be great. Also... your demo really should be a song.
This is a small thing, but hearing chords/music sounds in your demo video (not just the voice-over) would be great. Also... your demo really should be a song.
Thanks for the kind words!
That's a great point about the demo. I'm hoping to put up a more polished demo in the near future (with the help of more a talented video editor than I), and I'll definitely include the audio.
That's a great point about the demo. I'm hoping to put up a more polished demo in the near future (with the help of more a talented video editor than I), and I'll definitely include the audio.
I'd be curious to hear about the experience with customers in 6-12 months. It seems like if you can tap into the "hobbyist" market, and keep them interested, it could be a solid business.
I'm reminded by the Fender presentation at re:Invent this year (https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/fender/). Fender noticed that 45% of Fender players are new to the instrument, and most spend more on lessons then the guitar itself, but 90% quit after a year. The 10% that stick with it will go on to purchase 8-10 guitars, typically from their brand. So their whole strategy with apps and services is just to chisel away at that 90% number.
I'm reminded by the Fender presentation at re:Invent this year (https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/fender/). Fender noticed that 45% of Fender players are new to the instrument, and most spend more on lessons then the guitar itself, but 90% quit after a year. The 10% that stick with it will go on to purchase 8-10 guitars, typically from their brand. So their whole strategy with apps and services is just to chisel away at that 90% number.
I wish you could incorporate rhythm/bars on top of the lyrics along with the chord symbols. I've been playing guitar since 2005, and I still find it exceedingly difficult to play chords along with lyrics without some kind of rhythmic reference, even if I know the song pretty well.
This is an incredibly important feature to me. It's coming, but I want to be sure to get it right. It will also enable some other really useful features like entire song play-through. Thanks for the feedback!
Yea, I can imagine how it'd be hard to implement. I guess you'd have to tie the lyrics to rhythm, as well, and at that point you're pretty much implementing sheet music features.
Exactly my thoughts! I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad direction to go, I just want to make sure I do it the right way.
The editor looks fantastic!
Have you considered hosting tabs for sharing?
It would be great to see a replacement for UltimateGuitar who despite having the largest collection of pop tabs engage in some extremely scummy business practices
Have you considered hosting tabs for sharing?
It would be great to see a replacement for UltimateGuitar who despite having the largest collection of pop tabs engage in some extremely scummy business practices
I made a small website because I was so annoyed at UG and co... I’ve kind of stopped working on it though (a bit worried about monetising it as it seemed to be a bit complicated industry in terms of intellectual property).
https://www.lyrink.com/
https://www.lyrink.com/
Oh wow this is exactly what I was planning to build myself. Great job!
I’m really excited to look into some of the publishing and community-based features that might be possible. I’m not sure I would want to tackle tab hosting on the scale that UG does, but it’s definitely not out of the question.
Thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for the feedback!
How do you address the market of 30-something hobbyist with kids and jobs etc who might have short spurs of creativity followed by very long inactive periods. They might want to pay to use all the features and become good with the tool for sporadic use but might be turned off to the idea of paying for months of the account being dormant. A one time price for an online license like Propellerhead Reason seems sensible.
This. And somewhat discouraged by the seemingly imaginary 44% discount on the pricing page. Has 8.95/mo ever been the price? Is it going to be? Is this just a permanent gimmick? Without any details or explanation it seems disingenuous.
I also can't find any info about exporting data for backups or what happens to data if a subscription is paused for a period of time. Since it isn't called out my default assumption is that data is trapped and lost respectively.
Generally looks like something I'd love to use but would be great to clarify those points.
I also can't find any info about exporting data for backups or what happens to data if a subscription is paused for a period of time. Since it isn't called out my default assumption is that data is trapped and lost respectively.
Generally looks like something I'd love to use but would be great to clarify those points.
This is very helpful feedback, thank you. In a couple places, I mention that the $4.95/mo rate (Launch discount) is for the first 3 months of your subscription before it changes to $8.95/mo. I need to make this more prominent, and I absolutely need to clarify the info on backups, plan-switching, etc.
I'm working on a FAQ, but I'll also leave some clarification here:
Songcraft Basic is always free, and your existing songs will never be locked or lost, even if you downgrade from Pro to Basic with more than 3 songs. You can always export any song as plain text.
Comparison info on the plans can be found at https://songcraft.io/plans.
Please let me know if you have other questions!
I'm working on a FAQ, but I'll also leave some clarification here:
Songcraft Basic is always free, and your existing songs will never be locked or lost, even if you downgrade from Pro to Basic with more than 3 songs. You can always export any song as plain text.
Comparison info on the plans can be found at https://songcraft.io/plans.
Please let me know if you have other questions!
You really need to clarify the pricing quickly. As it is now, if I signed up for the $4.95 offer and it got changed to $8.95 after three months I’d be pissed.
I wanted to launch with a simple pricing model, but I'm working on developing a longer term (annual/lifetime) plan to sit alongside the monthly one. I think that's an important point.
A user could also disable their subscription for longer periods of inactivity, but that's obviously not ideal for a regular but infrequent project (e.g. a couple days per month).
A user could also disable their subscription for longer periods of inactivity, but that's obviously not ideal for a regular but infrequent project (e.g. a couple days per month).
I think deactivating accounts etc works for some areas of productivity but the creativity is so fragile. When you're busy and you're choosing between turning on one more switch vs just not making any music today, a lot of people will just choose to not make music if there's any friction. That'll be exponentially more true if there's any account management and money involved in the choice vs a reverse sunken cost mentality.
This is great, I've got a bunch of hacky tools that do something similar-ish, but not as polished as this! Good work
Feature request: export to MIDI.
Feature request: export to MIDI.
MIDI support is on the roadmap! Export and import should both be feasible, as is live MIDI input. Thanks so much for giving Songcraft a shot.
Several years ago I tried finding some reasonable software tools for music and was not at all impressed with what I could find. Great that you decided to make a better one!
A long time ago I ran across ABC music notation, typically associated with old time or traditional music. I wonder if there could be an import filter that works with ABC notation?
A long time ago I ran across ABC music notation, typically associated with old time or traditional music. I wonder if there could be an import filter that works with ABC notation?
That's really interesting. When I was exploring implementing standard notation, I also came across ABC notation. If/when I take on standard notation, I think ABC notation would be very reasonable to implement for import/export. Thanks for the feedback!
This is great. Another killer feature might be exporting songs as structured documents suitable for git.
App seems extremely well thought out from first look, however, how do i actually play a song back?
Entire song playback isn't live yet, but it's coming! It's a really important feature to me, and I want to get it right. I could enable it in a very simple form, but I think it will be much more useful if I can ship it with powerful tempo/timing control.
Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks for making this! This was my first questions as well. Can you ship the very simple form, and later ship the more robust version?
I actually might do that. It's been the top feature request of the day. I'll look into it this week and see if I can ship something useful to tide us all over until I can improve it.
I keep lyrics and tabs in txt files with a custom .editorconfig file for color/highlighting, this is so much better, thank you!
I love hearing how everyone addresses this problem in their own way. I hope you enjoy Songcraft, and would love any feedback you have!
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Yikes! Hopefully the site will hold up to HN traffic. Was this on the landing page? If you let me know where you saw the error, I can take a look. Thanks!
Why aren't applications like this native anymore?
I'm personally experiencing a major case of web-app burnout.
I think there are a lot of benefits to a web app here including:
- Cross-platform support
- Collaboration and sharing, especially with unregistered users
- Speed to get off the ground as a new user
- Automatic updates for fixes + features
- Integrated live support
- Great open-source community
Is your question rhetorical? In case it's not:
1) Web applications make it easy to require monthly subscriptions, which many people don't like but is great for companies
2) Web applications can be more easily monetized through ads
3) Web applications can be updated for everyone more easily than a bunch of native installs, potentially reducing support costs
4) Web apps are a solution (not the only solution, but probably the easiest solution) to cross-platform development
1) Web applications make it easy to require monthly subscriptions, which many people don't like but is great for companies
2) Web applications can be more easily monetized through ads
3) Web applications can be updated for everyone more easily than a bunch of native installs, potentially reducing support costs
4) Web apps are a solution (not the only solution, but probably the easiest solution) to cross-platform development
5) Browser APIs/features and performance are continually improving, allowing for rich experiences in web applications.
The advantages of web applications, especially from the viewpoint of the developer/company, outweigh the advantages of native applications in more and more cases.
The advantages of web applications, especially from the viewpoint of the developer/company, outweigh the advantages of native applications in more and more cases.
You are depressingly correct.
I think the native platform is well covered already. Musescore and Tux Guitar (which despite the name is available cross-platform, not just on Linux) do pretty much everything you might possibly need as far as simple songwriting goes, plus a lot more.
Any plans for supporting standard notation?
That’s a great question. I held off on tackling standard notation because there are some existing solutions out there for composing standard notation. I decided to focus first on what seemed like an unmet need in the space.
That being said, I plan to bring in standard notation as an option after adding timing control. I think Songcraft could do some amazing things with conversion between tabs and standard notation, lead sheet generation, full play throughs, etc. All that is feasible, and I’m excited to get to that point!
That being said, I plan to bring in standard notation as an option after adding timing control. I think Songcraft could do some amazing things with conversion between tabs and standard notation, lead sheet generation, full play throughs, etc. All that is feasible, and I’m excited to get to that point!
Attention spans are short and the product talks, so the home page should be some kind of working demo eventually
Out of curiosity, what are the chord progression suggestions based on?
The progressions from the generator are based on manipulations of common patterns in scale degrees.
The chord recommendations in the editor are predicted from a recurrent neural network.
There are lot of improvements that I'm excited to make in both of these systems!
The chord recommendations in the editor are predicted from a recurrent neural network.
There are lot of improvements that I'm excited to make in both of these systems!
What sets this apart from TuxGuitar?
I'm Gabe, the creator of Songcraft (https://songcraft.io/home). I recently dove headfirst into songwriting, and I quickly grew frustrated with my process. I found songwriting difficult enough without having to wrangle a mess of different tools, and there's no great solution to build chord sheets and tabs (unless you love pure text input).
So, I built Songcraft - an online songwriting platform and tab builder. The drag-and-drop editor makes it easy to jump from chords to lyrics to melodies. I added a chord progression generator and chord recommendation engine to ensure the ideas keep flowing. The integrated tuner, rhyming dictionary, metronome, and audio recorder allow you to stay focused without distraction.
A few months ago I shared the beta on Hacker News and got some incredibly helpful feedback and some amazing beta users. Since then, I've revamped the product and made a ton of improvements and additions. Today is launch day, and I wouldn't be here without Hacker News!
I'd love to hear your thoughts and answer any questions you may have. Drop a line here or at [email protected].