India successfully shoots down satellite in space(timesofindia.indiatimes.com)
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
India successfully shoots down satellite in space
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-successfully-shoots-down-satellite-in-space-pm-modi/articleshow/68593732.cms
102 comments
We're already working on putting missiles and directed energy in space at my job in missile defense. They are 'defensive' missiles but the new ones they're putting up there will have offensive capabilities as well
The first minutes of WWIII will see a multitude of satellites shot 'down', followed by cascading space debris beget space junk.
""In the journey of every nation there are moments that bring utmost pride and have a historic impact on generations to come. One such moment is today,"" U+1F644
""In the journey of every nation there are moments that bring utmost pride and have a historic impact on generations to come. One such moment is today,"" U+1F644
U+1F644 is the codepoint for "Face with eyes looking up to sky watching cascading space debris mark the beginning of WW3", in case anyone was wondering.
https://codepoints.net/U+1F644
https://codepoints.net/U+1F644
I was really hoping for a "418 - I'm a teapot" kind of situation here :(
I hope it was shot down in a manner that doesnt produce more space junk, which is already acknowledged as a serious problem!
According to the FAQ put out by Gov of India [0]
V. Does the test create space debris?
The test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure that there is no space debris. Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks.
[0] https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/soon-after-pm-address-foreig...
V. Does the test create space debris?
The test was done in the lower atmosphere to ensure that there is no space debris. Whatever debris that is generated will decay and fall back onto the earth within weeks.
[0] https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/soon-after-pm-address-foreig...
Unless some pieces were boosted higher by the explosion. But I guess they are confident this could never happen.
When you boost an orbiting object in this manner there's only two possibilities for what can happen next:
a) you give it enough energy to reach escape velocity, in which case there's no problem.
b) you blow out the circular orbit into a long ellipse. The far end, apogee, can be very far out depending on how much energy you added, but the near end, perigee, is always at the same altitude as it was at the moment of impact. Therefore, as long as the satellite is "within" thin atmosphere at the moment of impact, the fragments will periodically pass through thin atmosphere as well.
To properly boost yourself into a higher (circular) orbit you need to give yourself two kicks: one to raise your apogee, and then half an orbit later another to raise your perigee to match.
a) you give it enough energy to reach escape velocity, in which case there's no problem.
b) you blow out the circular orbit into a long ellipse. The far end, apogee, can be very far out depending on how much energy you added, but the near end, perigee, is always at the same altitude as it was at the moment of impact. Therefore, as long as the satellite is "within" thin atmosphere at the moment of impact, the fragments will periodically pass through thin atmosphere as well.
To properly boost yourself into a higher (circular) orbit you need to give yourself two kicks: one to raise your apogee, and then half an orbit later another to raise your perigee to match.
c) it collides with something and creates more debris problems before ultimately falling back into the atmosphere.
It doesn’t have to be in a sustainable orbit to cause problems.
It doesn’t have to be in a sustainable orbit to cause problems.
Orbits are periodic. If it is boosted up, it'll come back down. Orbital decay will still happen.
300 km altitude. Should re-enter fairly quickly, unlike the Chinese satellite that has been destroyed in 2007.
Yeah! I wondered how it's even possible to "shoot down" a satellite. More like smearing it out.
It should be possible to nudge it to an unstable orbit without smearing it, but it would require a lot of fuel for maneuvers.
Satellites are sitting ducks. This feat is as admirable as kicking down a sandcastle on the beach.
We need an international treaty banning this because the detritus produced in the form of hundreds of thousands of new fragments in orbit is one of the largest threats to future space development.
We need an international treaty banning this because the detritus produced in the form of hundreds of thousands of new fragments in orbit is one of the largest threats to future space development.
Aren't little bits of debris in LEO going to fall back into the atmosphere and burn up pretty quickly, though? Not an expert here, but I think there is enough atmosphere left at standard LEO altitudes that thrusters are needed semi-regularly to keep these things in orbit. Granted, some debris may get launched into a weird elliptical orbit that takes them farther away from Earth for a bit, but then won't they come right back into the atmosphere at perigee and burn up?
Look who didn't read the article.
The thing about shooting down another nation's satellites in a military conflict - your own satellites are equally as vulnerable. It's like starting a nuclear war.
I certainly hope that among the nations and people who are developing these weapons, they have a number of game theory people who have thoroughly considered all of the ramifications of mutually assured destruction.
In a major conflict, the US and Russia have a number of geostationary and MEO orbit military satellite communications systems which are outside of the reach of any LEO antisatellite weapons (capable of shooting down things up in up to approximately 550x550km circular orbits).
On an Indian specific note, this threat has to be aimed only at whatever Pakistan might put into orbit. At present Pakistan has negligible ability to launch anything themselves, and very little actual Pakistani owned/manufactured/controlled satellites in low earth orbit. But who else can it possibly be considered a threat to?
India is hopefully not foolish enough to think that they could get into a shooting war with China and come out ahead.
I certainly hope that among the nations and people who are developing these weapons, they have a number of game theory people who have thoroughly considered all of the ramifications of mutually assured destruction.
In a major conflict, the US and Russia have a number of geostationary and MEO orbit military satellite communications systems which are outside of the reach of any LEO antisatellite weapons (capable of shooting down things up in up to approximately 550x550km circular orbits).
On an Indian specific note, this threat has to be aimed only at whatever Pakistan might put into orbit. At present Pakistan has negligible ability to launch anything themselves, and very little actual Pakistani owned/manufactured/controlled satellites in low earth orbit. But who else can it possibly be considered a threat to?
India is hopefully not foolish enough to think that they could get into a shooting war with China and come out ahead.
I wonder why the prime minister felt the need to announce this himself. If I remember correctly the Chinese premier did not announce their test.
Most likely because the Department of Space comes under the Prime Minister.[1] And it was very important to assure the international community that we are not going to use it for attacking another country. PM's direct involvement helps this very much. The Chinese test got a significant negative reaction because of the ignorance from the top leadership.
1. https://www.isro.gov.in/about-isro/organisation-structure
1. https://www.isro.gov.in/about-isro/organisation-structure
lagolinguini(3)
Modi takes the credit for anything achieved by the government or government backed entities like the space organisation. He singlehandedly opened bank accounts (that are empty), surgically struck Pakistan (with his bare hands), got us to space, developed missiles, brought the black money back, won the cricket world cup, created jobs, built the mandir (that's built, right?) and a million other achievements.
What's curious is that he seems to go missing when there's a fuck up. Who was responsible for demonetization? No idea, blame anyone you want but don't blame him!
What's curious is that he seems to go missing when there's a fuck up. Who was responsible for demonetization? No idea, blame anyone you want but don't blame him!
Sure, why not? Take credit for whatever you have done, it's naive to think that politicians will not showcase their work. Tell me what do you write in your resume?
Finding personal faults with any public person is pointless (as in having an effect on you). What matters is whether the results are good/bad.
Finding personal faults with any public person is pointless (as in having an effect on you). What matters is whether the results are good/bad.
I have 2 issues with what Modi does
* His list of achievements is absurd and factually incorrect, and he rarely gives credit to others who contributed.
* He hates criticism and tries to muzzle it. A politician should not interfere with the press but he does so. He has gotten journalists fired because they criticised him.
* His list of achievements is absurd and factually incorrect, and he rarely gives credit to others who contributed.
* He hates criticism and tries to muzzle it. A politician should not interfere with the press but he does so. He has gotten journalists fired because they criticised him.
He's always reflected the praise towards the scientific community as far as I can see:
Just read the tweets on his profile... A sample: https://mobile.twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1110862796437...
It's like... Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
If you're going to blindly criticise anyone without considering things out of your bubble, that's your prerogative.
Just read the tweets on his profile... A sample: https://mobile.twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1110862796437...
It's like... Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
If you're going to blindly criticise anyone without considering things out of your bubble, that's your prerogative.
Historian Guha put it nicely, "Modi doesn't share credit, not even with Lord Ram".
Because the assembly polls didn't show bjp leading by as much as expected.
https://m.khaleejtimes.com/international/india/India-assembl...
Adding a link. Sorry about creating a new comment. Am on mobile
Adding a link. Sorry about creating a new comment. Am on mobile
So you think the entire exercise was carried out for BJP to pull ahead in elections? How much do you think Indian citizens care about this? Do you think it is enough to swing votes?
Don't be too quick to find faults!
Don't be too quick to find faults!
It is definitely possible that the exercise was carried out independent of the election schedule, but Modi announcing it (instead of some lower official) is because of the elections, part of making every bit of possible patriotism count.
Don't be too quick to overstate others' positions!
Don't be too quick to overstate others' positions!
Modi heads the Department of Space. He has every right to announce it whether you like it or not.
As far as overstating positions go, the opposition in India was quick to jump to conspiracy theories after the Pulwama attack saying that Modi orchestrated the entire attack for political gains. This ridiculous conspiracy theory mongering has gone on to unprecedented levels this election. After failing at making a dent for the past 1 year by parroting Rafale lies, the opposition is now trying to find a new issue to latch onto.
It can't be that you keep throwing darts until one of them sticks! That is not how a responsible opposition should behave!
As far as overstating positions go, the opposition in India was quick to jump to conspiracy theories after the Pulwama attack saying that Modi orchestrated the entire attack for political gains. This ridiculous conspiracy theory mongering has gone on to unprecedented levels this election. After failing at making a dent for the past 1 year by parroting Rafale lies, the opposition is now trying to find a new issue to latch onto.
It can't be that you keep throwing darts until one of them sticks! That is not how a responsible opposition should behave!
I'm not Indian (or from any nearby country!). I do not care if BJP wins the next election or whatever is going on. I am not part of the opposition. Your passion is so overwrought that you are seeing opposition where it isn't.
Not the entire exercise. But the publishing of the fact imo is to grt better traction for the election. Between such announcements and the modi biopic movie during the elections, i am betting that modi marketing momentum is not going to stop.
Well, I've heard people saying that everything from the Pulwama attack to Balakot airstrikes was orchestrated by BJP for electoral gains. So reading the grand parent wasn't surprising.
Oh, the announcement almost certainly was.
So... Don't announce scientific achievements by your national space agency during an election?
Talk about skewed perspectives.
Talk about skewed perspectives.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/27/modi-space-wea... "veteran broadcaster Shekhar Gupta tweeted that the space missile had destroyed two targets: a satellite, and “what remained of the stature [and] reputation of Election Commission of India”"
Code of conduct doesn't apply to national security issues. Not sure what Mr. Gupta is implying here.
> Code of conduct doesn't apply to national security issues
You realize that nobody is fooled right? Everyone except for Modi's supporters sees through this
You realize that nobody is fooled right? Everyone except for Modi's supporters sees through this
That's not what I am doing here. You can read it yourself: https://m.economictimes.com/news/elections/lok-sabha/india/i...
I'm not about aware about any change in the Code of Conduct since the EC made that statement. Correct me if I am wrong.
I'm not about aware about any change in the Code of Conduct since the EC made that statement. Correct me if I am wrong.
Shooting down your own satellite isn't an "issue of national security."
And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move? The answer to the latter is yes to pretty much all of the outside observers.
And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move? The answer to the latter is yes to pretty much all of the outside observers.
They shot the satellite with a "missile". And it was a demonstration of what we would do when a spy satellite hovers above us during "wartime". The PM in his address clearly said that this successful test makes "India" more "secure". Considering all this, it pretty much qualifies to be a national security issue to me.
> And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move?
I don't know.
> And the question isn't whether it is permissible, but rather was it an obvious opportunistic move?
I don't know.
Why don't you register a complaint with ECI and take BJP to court? Any lawyer worth their salt will reject to take your case unless they like losing. I am sure now you will attack the Indian judiciary and how BJP has "compromised" that as well. There is no end to this kind of BS argument. Just be happy for India.
Because that's the norm in India. Even the then PM, Atal Behari Vajpayee, had announced the successful test of Nuclear Bomb in 1998:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokhran-II
And point to be noted is that this one was just after the election. So it seems like elections have not been a major factor in these kinds of announcement in India.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokhran-II
And point to be noted is that this one was just after the election. So it seems like elections have not been a major factor in these kinds of announcement in India.
Elections are coming.
Being the 4th nation to do this is tremendous achievement, being not acknowledged by PM would have been a bigger news.
These tests ought to be banned by international agreements. This is not an achievement for anybody. It is a travesty.
Then everybody will do it secretly. It's only a travesty when someone starts it; other people have the right to respond to parity with their own.
There's no way to secretly test these weapons.
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the weapons existence. I'm objecting to the tests, which are potentially worse than above-ground nuclear testing. The kessler syndrome, if realized, would permanently destroy our ability to deploy, access, and use space resources.
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the weapons existence. I'm objecting to the tests, which are potentially worse than above-ground nuclear testing. The kessler syndrome, if realized, would permanently destroy our ability to deploy, access, and use space resources.
It 300km in low earth orbit. Press briefing said that the debris will re-enter the atmosphere within a week.
How many tests did US conduct since 1950s?
Anti-satellite weapon tests? Only twice. Once in 1985, which was internationally condemned and widely considered a mistake, and once operationally in 2008 to destroy a failed satellite about to re-enter with a full tank of toxic fuel (the debris from this immediately entered the atmosphere).
Wait... what?
So the first, the US, was a travesty, but everyone else is legitimate self-defense?
So the first, the US, was a travesty, but everyone else is legitimate self-defense?
So that the amazing scientists get appropriate public recognition.
Strangely, I'm not seeing a wide enough condemnation of this. Another country is building destructive weapons, bringing down LEOs; how is this a good thing? All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Sending a science mission to space is great and rightly lauded, this is wasteful and energies spent better elsewhere.
Sending a science mission to space is great and rightly lauded, this is wasteful and energies spent better elsewhere.
Advancing your countries technological capability and dealing with one of the largest populations living in poverty are two separate endeavors. Expecting a country to abandon growth in one sector to improve another is not really sensible. Both challenges are being tackled simultaneously. The US conducted Apollo and the Mars missions, spending billions while people in Skid Row or Detroit live in 3rd world level poverty.
> Strangely, I'm not seeing a wide enough condemnation of this. Another country is building destructive weapons, bringing down LEOs; how is this a good thing?
I've seen some criticism from certain individuals. However, I haven't read any condemnation from any Western government(as yet). I'm not sure but Western governments(or at least the US government) was probably taken into confidence either before the event or soon after the test. Considering that China already has this tech, it becomes paramount for India to have it. I think this is generally supported by the US(the government) as well.
> All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Developing such such security apparatus doesn't mean we are ignoring poverty and other essential things. Both can be done simultaneously, just like the US did(explained by a sibling comment).
I've seen some criticism from certain individuals. However, I haven't read any condemnation from any Western government(as yet). I'm not sure but Western governments(or at least the US government) was probably taken into confidence either before the event or soon after the test. Considering that China already has this tech, it becomes paramount for India to have it. I think this is generally supported by the US(the government) as well.
> All the while the region suffers from chronic poverty, poor access to clean water and basic services.
Developing such such security apparatus doesn't mean we are ignoring poverty and other essential things. Both can be done simultaneously, just like the US did(explained by a sibling comment).
Here it is: “India anti-satellite missile test a 'terrible thing,' NASA chief says”
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/india/nasa-india-anti-missile...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/india/nasa-india-anti-missile...
So you mean US shouldn't spend a dime on technology before the last homeless person in SF is rehabilitated?
Once you see it in the context of protecting your country from hostile and belligerent neighbors, you will realize that it is not at all wasteful, rather is absolutely necessary.
Such a huge step toward more peace in the world. What do you expect when world major democracy advocates are also the world major weapon sellers.
I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite that deserves such a public announcement. Perhaps it is far less complicated than putting a satellite into space which is what India was already good at it.
I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite that deserves such a public announcement. Perhaps it is far less complicated than putting a satellite into space which is what India was already good at it.
>>I don't think there is any technological glory on destroying a satellite
We are talking about the capability to track and destroy a live satellite in space in under a span of 3 minutes with precision. There is a significant amount of technology involved here right from the types of propellants, precise navigation controls to steer rock in a specific direction...all of which has been developed indigenously. This technology can be easily used in other space programs for civilian applications.
Not sure on what basis you are considering this as not being technologically significant.
We are talking about the capability to track and destroy a live satellite in space in under a span of 3 minutes with precision. There is a significant amount of technology involved here right from the types of propellants, precise navigation controls to steer rock in a specific direction...all of which has been developed indigenously. This technology can be easily used in other space programs for civilian applications.
Not sure on what basis you are considering this as not being technologically significant.
[deleted]
Just wondering, is it possible to use a big enough mirror and just reflect sunlight to do the same thing? Though this only means satellites can only be destroyed during daytime.
It will also ionize the air in an extreme manner, probably rendering the surrounding environment impossible to be in.
For a rough estimate, see this: https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
For a rough estimate, see this: https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
Mirror could be out in space, so it won't light our atmosphere on fire!
This mirror would be shot down :P
Sounds unlikely lol but why would you want to? Definitely more expensive than missile
Missiles are easily tracked. Your opposition will know who, how, when and where someone was taking action against them. Light pressure could just subtly push a satellite off course as it passes overhead. They have finite propellant on board to correct for it.
That said, I don't think a big mirror reflecting the sun is all that practical when a big ass laser would do the same job and be easier to manufacture and operate.
That said, I don't think a big mirror reflecting the sun is all that practical when a big ass laser would do the same job and be easier to manufacture and operate.
Let me get this straight, a missile is easy to track, but a giant mirror reflecting a load of sunlight that would have to be LoS to the satellite wouldn’t be? Not to mention that bombing the mirror would be a lot easier than shooting down the missile...
A missile can be viewed from many angles. A beam of light is (mostly) only visible by whoever its aimed at. Light dispersion not withstanding. Sunlight is quite bright and will mask a lot of the scattered light as well.
The effects of a beam of light strong enough to push a satellite into a rapidly decaying orbit would bloom like mad through the atmosphere, and create very detectable thermal effects. It would be detectable in a number of wavelengths for a staggering distance. You’d also have to impact the satellite so strongly that its station-keeping thrusters would be insufficient, while account for losses through the atmosphere. It would have to work quickly enough that the satellite wouldn’t fly out of range, and your weapon would only work during the day in clear weather.
It really makes no sense at all.
It really makes no sense at all.
Some of it makes plenty of sense.
The atmosphere is hardly a problem. You'd use numerous beams simultaneously, fired from all over the country. No single beam would be powerful enough to cause atmospheric breakdown. The sensible choice is to surround every power plant with lasers.
No, this won't be undetectable.
Light pressure is fine, but probably not as productive as ionizing the surface to produce thrust. With high power, atoms at the surface can become multiply ionized. They get blasted off the surface. This would be pulsed, since otherwise the resulting ions would absorb some of the beam and there would be a risk of melting the surface.
If the thrust isn't enough, for example due to a very high orbit, you can just keep going until the target is gone.
Weather isn't much of a problem. There is probably clear weather somewhere over the country. Station keeping won't last forever.
Oh, and if you don't insist on a neat and tidy removal, you can just use non-pulsed beams to melt the target.
The atmosphere is hardly a problem. You'd use numerous beams simultaneously, fired from all over the country. No single beam would be powerful enough to cause atmospheric breakdown. The sensible choice is to surround every power plant with lasers.
No, this won't be undetectable.
Light pressure is fine, but probably not as productive as ionizing the surface to produce thrust. With high power, atoms at the surface can become multiply ionized. They get blasted off the surface. This would be pulsed, since otherwise the resulting ions would absorb some of the beam and there would be a risk of melting the surface.
If the thrust isn't enough, for example due to a very high orbit, you can just keep going until the target is gone.
Weather isn't much of a problem. There is probably clear weather somewhere over the country. Station keeping won't last forever.
Oh, and if you don't insist on a neat and tidy removal, you can just use non-pulsed beams to melt the target.
Right, the issue though isn’t if it’s technically possible, but that it would somehow be advantageous compared to a missile. I grant that it can be done, I’m still unsure as to why. Nonetheless I appreciate your analysis!
Does the fact it was on low orbite would mitigate the risk of adding-up even more space debris to the current graveyard of debris? I remember it was a big concern/critique when China did its own attempt. I don't know enough about this test/space to tell if it's different this time.
So future will be like satellites will be loaded with missiles. Entire thing will look like mine field later.
In cases where the satellite is orbiting low, Kessler shouldn't be a problem. In this case the satellite was at 300km and the pieces would decay in less than a year. Even if pieces were pushed into a higher orbit by the explosion, they would still dip down to 300km periodically and decay just a little longer.
Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay#/media/File:Alti...
Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay#/media/File:Alti...
Ah that is great to know. I believe the Chinese asat test was around 500 or so miles and it caused a real mess of debris.
Well done DRDO and well publicized by the PM office.
Is there any video/photo footage of this?
We can see space-x events from 32 different angles and audio of everything happening, I kind of assume you would record these events too?
We can see space-x events from 32 different angles and audio of everything happening, I kind of assume you would record these events too?
Its a weapons program. They won't release missile footage publicly.
This is critical for the geopolitical stability of the region. Pakistan, China have traditionally assumed that India lacks the political will as well as the technological capacity to build advanced weapons such as these. This will be a big deterrence and help bring it peace to the region.
I would not be surprised if India announces ICBMs in the next 5 years. A country that can place 100s of satellites in space as well as place geostationary satellites, has the necessary rocket technology to build an ICBM. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean they can't do it.
I think India is in the midst of adopting an active deterrence policy. Being passive hasn't yielded good results.
I would not be surprised if India announces ICBMs in the next 5 years. A country that can place 100s of satellites in space as well as place geostationary satellites, has the necessary rocket technology to build an ICBM. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't mean they can't do it.
I think India is in the midst of adopting an active deterrence policy. Being passive hasn't yielded good results.
India already has ICBMs. Read about Agni-V here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-V
Western Nations often have this tendency of pass international laws with exceptions for themselves using ridiculous arguments. Such as nuclear proliferation treaties which allows existing nuclear powers to build more nuclear war heads but does not allow others to build even the first nuke.
India's NSA Ajit Doval in 2011 had pointed out that this is going to happen to satellite sabotage as well. The existing players will gang up to ban such weapons while making exemptions for themselves. By publicly showing and acknowledging this capability India has ensured a seat at the table in future.