Ask HN: Verbally abusive employer, what do I do?
35 comments
This is very common where I live. One way out is through freelancing remotely. In Canada, you should be able to find some good remote jobs from the US.
Don't look on Upwork or freelancing marketplaces. Something like Toptal offers a good entry barrier and they take care of you as well.
Also I understand it's hard to do good work under those conditions, but you should try. My entry into freelancing was when I was working with an external contractor. He saw that I did an extremely good job and offered me some contract work.
Don't look on Upwork or freelancing marketplaces. Something like Toptal offers a good entry barrier and they take care of you as well.
Also I understand it's hard to do good work under those conditions, but you should try. My entry into freelancing was when I was working with an external contractor. He saw that I did an extremely good job and offered me some contract work.
I'm curious, did you notice this toxic behavior in other areas too, or just IT? To me it seems like IT has a higher percentage of assholes.
It's actually far less in IT. A close relative worked in construction. You think tech has bad harassment issues? Construction had open prostitution at work, rape jokes targeted towards the female engineers, and some people would urinate openly.
Anything with undereducated people are also quite toxic. Both the managers and colleagues often have very low willpower and get emotional over small issues, starting fights for small things, like not getting them a drink, or touching their car.
In tech, people are not so replaceable, so most companies have plenty of financial incentive to treat each other respectfully.
Startups can be a little worse than usual, because the people are younger and there's more of a "college" climate.
Anything with undereducated people are also quite toxic. Both the managers and colleagues often have very low willpower and get emotional over small issues, starting fights for small things, like not getting them a drink, or touching their car.
In tech, people are not so replaceable, so most companies have plenty of financial incentive to treat each other respectfully.
Startups can be a little worse than usual, because the people are younger and there's more of a "college" climate.
I know few fields in which it is way way worse.
Construction work(both field and engineering/project side), surveying and few others.
Construction work(both field and engineering/project side), surveying and few others.
This is a shit situation to be in, but honestly until you have something lined up I wouldn't recommend doing anything just yet as you don't want to compromise your only source of income. Document everything but keep quiet and focus on the other issue which is that you need another job.
> The market where I live is bad this year.
In that case you might need to consider relocation - staying in a market that bad (no offer in a year of job hunting is crazy) would be a huge risk/liability anyway - imagine if you lost your next job. As shitty as this situation is, at least you are given the opportunity to look for a job on your own terms and not just suddenly shown the door.
Once you're out (and only then) you can look into getting back at them - talk to a lawyer and give them the documentation.
> The market where I live is bad this year.
In that case you might need to consider relocation - staying in a market that bad (no offer in a year of job hunting is crazy) would be a huge risk/liability anyway - imagine if you lost your next job. As shitty as this situation is, at least you are given the opportunity to look for a job on your own terms and not just suddenly shown the door.
Once you're out (and only then) you can look into getting back at them - talk to a lawyer and give them the documentation.
This. I was in an extreme situation like you were (boss abusive with everyone in the company, constant threats and sometimes physical abuse).
- First, see if you can find other employees in the same situation. Being a group helped us. - Document everything. Commit on git first thing in the morning, and before leaving. Write down every conversation you had right after you had them—we tend to forget very quickly. Dump your calendar and emails regularly. You can find scripts to dump Slack too. If your boss has written anything abusive them, it is also a good idea to take screenshots. - I guess moving is not an option for your family? Otherwise start looking in other markets. - Freelancing is a good option otherwise. I know it sucks to do this on top of your job, but you only to save enough to get yourself out of this.
Once you’re out, and only when you’re out, find a good lawyer. Do not hesitate to sue. It’s not greed, it’s reparation for the abuse. You deserve it.
Good luck to you.
- First, see if you can find other employees in the same situation. Being a group helped us. - Document everything. Commit on git first thing in the morning, and before leaving. Write down every conversation you had right after you had them—we tend to forget very quickly. Dump your calendar and emails regularly. You can find scripts to dump Slack too. If your boss has written anything abusive them, it is also a good idea to take screenshots. - I guess moving is not an option for your family? Otherwise start looking in other markets. - Freelancing is a good option otherwise. I know it sucks to do this on top of your job, but you only to save enough to get yourself out of this.
Once you’re out, and only when you’re out, find a good lawyer. Do not hesitate to sue. It’s not greed, it’s reparation for the abuse. You deserve it.
Good luck to you.
I once had to sue an employer for wrongful dismissal over anonymous social media posts I didn't even write when I was in my early 20s in Canada and won a small settlement. Process took about 3 months but it was worth it. My lawyer told me most companies, even gigantic ones (i sued a large global airline) are extremely cheap, they have house counsel they use for everything and rarely seek out specialist lawyers which means that their lawyer(s) will be absolutely trounced by your employment specialist lawyer during every settlement meeting. It was amusing watching the highly arrogant Toronto lawyer that was parachuted in, with no experience in employment law, bungle and flounder around failing at every turn during settlement conferences with a judge.
You can refuse overtime in Canada unless you signed some work contract that says you agree to work overtime, ergo you need a real employment lawyer to go over your case. A real employment lawyer is somebody attached to an actual firm specializing in employment law and not the first search results in google, which if you check their name will also be the 'experts' in injury law, a bunch of other spam ads. All you need is a half hour call with them and possibly emailing them your work contract documentation if any exists. Of course they will tell you to start documenting everything like the rest of the comments here suggest.
As for planning an escape if your market is bad then recruiters have an even worse time, so find one and get them to help you. Establish yourself in remote freelance outfits like TopTal, CleverTech, or even Salesforce who hire all over Canada. Then ask your employment lawyer what to do, don't just quit maybe you need to file harassment paperwork first or bait them into firing you by refusing overtime.
You can refuse overtime in Canada unless you signed some work contract that says you agree to work overtime, ergo you need a real employment lawyer to go over your case. A real employment lawyer is somebody attached to an actual firm specializing in employment law and not the first search results in google, which if you check their name will also be the 'experts' in injury law, a bunch of other spam ads. All you need is a half hour call with them and possibly emailing them your work contract documentation if any exists. Of course they will tell you to start documenting everything like the rest of the comments here suggest.
As for planning an escape if your market is bad then recruiters have an even worse time, so find one and get them to help you. Establish yourself in remote freelance outfits like TopTal, CleverTech, or even Salesforce who hire all over Canada. Then ask your employment lawyer what to do, don't just quit maybe you need to file harassment paperwork first or bait them into firing you by refusing overtime.
Geniune question: Assume you sued and won. You get paid an amount of money. This is most likely leaked to the press or somewhere online. Wouldn't you be basically avoided by recruiters like a plague because they worry you'd do the same for your future employer?
Since I didn't actually do the thing they accused me of it would've been worse to do nothing, I'd be blacklisted for being known as the guy fired for supreme idiocy instead of the guy who received a signed apology letter and compensation clearing me of any involvement. You also get a reference letter to give to future employers and the company is legally bound to not tell anybody calling anything besides confirmation of employment. I would assume you could sue for potential earnings loss if some company is vindictively leaking your settlement details.
Maybe try to develop an income via remote work?
Below is a Google doc with over 100 potential options. I have no idea how many of them are US only.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JfNAbUX_lN9K3MCNHO15...
Below is a Google doc with over 100 potential options. I have no idea how many of them are US only.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JfNAbUX_lN9K3MCNHO15...
Sorry to hear that.
My suggestion would be to put your energy into finding a new job.
- Do the minimum at work that you can get away with
- Spend the rest of time looking for and applying for new jobs
- Try to fix any problems that prevent you from finding a job
For example if it's a location thing, look for more remote-friendly jobs.
If you are not getting interviews try to debug your resume.
My suggestion would be to put your energy into finding a new job.
- Do the minimum at work that you can get away with
- Spend the rest of time looking for and applying for new jobs
- Try to fix any problems that prevent you from finding a job
For example if it's a location thing, look for more remote-friendly jobs.
If you are not getting interviews try to debug your resume.
Its mainly a location issue, I've been seeking remote jobs, but a lot reject citing no previous long term remote experience.
You can still get remote jobs if you pitch it right. Basically you need to emphasize ability to work independently and communication skills.
1. "here is project I designed and built on my own"
2. "our team is distributed across two offices, I collaborate with people in other office"
3. "I wrote some code for open source project"
4. "I help customers debug their issues over email/phone/chat"
etc.
1. "here is project I designed and built on my own"
2. "our team is distributed across two offices, I collaborate with people in other office"
3. "I wrote some code for open source project"
4. "I help customers debug their issues over email/phone/chat"
etc.
The first question I usually ask in situations such as this is: How much do you have saved up that you can live off of? the game theory will look different if you have a few $$ to lean on vs 0 dollars saved and kids to feed.
I have about $1000 saved, which won't pay the rent ($450 shy of the 1mo rent payment).
Sounds like you need to cut back expenses and start saving more even independent of this job situation.
If you took work at half market rate, what would you do financially? Cut your expenses back to that level for at least 3 months (if not indefinitely), and save like it’s going out of style. That will give you a cushion and the freedom of a few more choices.
If you took work at half market rate, what would you do financially? Cut your expenses back to that level for at least 3 months (if not indefinitely), and save like it’s going out of style. That will give you a cushion and the freedom of a few more choices.
I get the feeling that many elements of your story don't add up. How can you work 10-12 hours a day and only have $1000 saved up, especially if you're in a tech-related field? I know kids can be expensive, but they're not that expensive.
In life, unless you can learn to put away a huge pile of cash, people are just going to walk all over you. When you are vulnerable, it sends a signal and they pounce on it. Your boss will stop abusing you the moment he realizes he can't use it to control you anymore.
Save your money. Pick up new skills. Become less dependent on others. Bike instead of driving. Cook all of your own meals. Learn about investing. Get out of debt. Maintain your own vehicles. Plant a garden.
Take literally any step to make yourself more independent and your boss will lose power.
In life, unless you can learn to put away a huge pile of cash, people are just going to walk all over you. When you are vulnerable, it sends a signal and they pounce on it. Your boss will stop abusing you the moment he realizes he can't use it to control you anymore.
Save your money. Pick up new skills. Become less dependent on others. Bike instead of driving. Cook all of your own meals. Learn about investing. Get out of debt. Maintain your own vehicles. Plant a garden.
Take literally any step to make yourself more independent and your boss will lose power.
> I get the feeling that many elements of your story don't add up. How can you work 10-12 hours a day and only have $1000 saved up, especially if you're in a tech-related field? I know kids can be expensive, but they're not that expensive.
Welcome to the real world my friend. Most people working in IT earn way less than you think. Way, way less. It's scary outside the bubble.
Welcome to the real world my friend. Most people working in IT earn way less than you think. Way, way less. It's scary outside the bubble.
Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. Does this happen to anyone else on the team? If I were you, I'd (informally) ask others if this is a problem for them, and if it is maybe consider formally putting your foot down to the CEO.
If you feel there is any kind of legal route you can go down, I'd consider talking to a lawyer, in case there is anything that can be done. I'd also ask about the implications of being a whistleblower. One possible route could be to a local newspaper, ensuring that the entire town/city is aware that the company bullies its employees.
Failing all of this, if it's just someone being a bully, fight back. Challenge him on anything offensive he says, and respond back. Also, start cutting your hours back to the hours you're supposed to be working. Tell the boss that any failings in your work is down to him being a shitty manager, and that if he wants anything extra from you his boss either needs to put him on training, or to sack him and get someone that knows what they're doing.
If you feel there is any kind of legal route you can go down, I'd consider talking to a lawyer, in case there is anything that can be done. I'd also ask about the implications of being a whistleblower. One possible route could be to a local newspaper, ensuring that the entire town/city is aware that the company bullies its employees.
Failing all of this, if it's just someone being a bully, fight back. Challenge him on anything offensive he says, and respond back. Also, start cutting your hours back to the hours you're supposed to be working. Tell the boss that any failings in your work is down to him being a shitty manager, and that if he wants anything extra from you his boss either needs to put him on training, or to sack him and get someone that knows what they're doing.
If you only have $1000 and your rent alone is $1450, then obviously you are in a very bad spot.
Try to save more money, because it's very difficult to change jobs if you can't even cover 3-6 months of expenses from your savings. Consider moving to cheaper apartment. If your wife is able to work, even part time, you should ask her to.
Keep doing the minimum required work to get you through your day job and spend all the time looking for new job. Go to tech conferences to try to network with other tech people in your area.
Try rewriting your CV. Do not offer to work for half your rate! That is very desperate and from the point of game theory will make you even less likely to find a job. Ask for at least your current salary or little bit more during interviews.
Try to save more money, because it's very difficult to change jobs if you can't even cover 3-6 months of expenses from your savings. Consider moving to cheaper apartment. If your wife is able to work, even part time, you should ask her to.
Keep doing the minimum required work to get you through your day job and spend all the time looking for new job. Go to tech conferences to try to network with other tech people in your area.
Try rewriting your CV. Do not offer to work for half your rate! That is very desperate and from the point of game theory will make you even less likely to find a job. Ask for at least your current salary or little bit more during interviews.
If you are working 10-12 hours a day, expand your job search to locations which involve a 1-2 hour commute each way. (Assumption: you can find something that only involves 8 hours of work per day.) It will suck, but it will still be better than your current situation. You may be able to WFH some or move house sometime later.
This happened to me with a boss I had back in 1999. The company was family owned (at the top layers). I tried talking to them, they said they would handle it. It didn't stop.
We didn't have cell phones back then that could record audio easily so I bought a micro-cassette recorder, started wearing hoodies and turned it on before entering his office (he never did it in front of others). This way I could toss it in the front pocket. I carried a notebook in front of me so he didn't see it. I got him on tape a few times being unprofessional. With this the owners had no choice but to deal with the situation and as an apology the "boss" was removed but forced to say why and apologize at a company wide meeting and my tapes were also played at that meeting.
I imagine now-a-days, this may not work but phones can record easily now.
Edit: re-arrange for better clarity.
We didn't have cell phones back then that could record audio easily so I bought a micro-cassette recorder, started wearing hoodies and turned it on before entering his office (he never did it in front of others). This way I could toss it in the front pocket. I carried a notebook in front of me so he didn't see it. I got him on tape a few times being unprofessional. With this the owners had no choice but to deal with the situation and as an apology the "boss" was removed but forced to say why and apologize at a company wide meeting and my tapes were also played at that meeting.
I imagine now-a-days, this may not work but phones can record easily now.
Edit: re-arrange for better clarity.
Make sure if you do this that your state / province has one party recording laws. Some states only allow recording if all parties to the conversation have consented.
This is good advice. Thank you for mentioning it. I didn't care :-)
Sorry to hear about that. Here are some tips:
1. Bullies will keep punching you in the face until you fight back. You don’t have to win: just fight back.
2. You’re more likely to lose your job if you’re not respected and you’re less respected if you don’t fight back.
3. Cutting your rates won’t help you find a job: it just makes you entirely undesirable to the market segment you belong in.
If you can, consider this an opportunity to grow as a person and challenge your assumptions about interpersonal relationships. I don’t know you or your situation, so I offer this as just honest advise from what I’m reading.
1. Bullies will keep punching you in the face until you fight back. You don’t have to win: just fight back.
2. You’re more likely to lose your job if you’re not respected and you’re less respected if you don’t fight back.
3. Cutting your rates won’t help you find a job: it just makes you entirely undesirable to the market segment you belong in.
If you can, consider this an opportunity to grow as a person and challenge your assumptions about interpersonal relationships. I don’t know you or your situation, so I offer this as just honest advise from what I’m reading.
Maybe you can do unemployment:
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-regular-ben...
It says the following:
You may not be entitled for benefits:
if you voluntarily left your job without just cause
Just document when your boss berates you and then use that as cause with the Unemployment office. That will give you more time to look for a job. Maybe you can contact them and explain your case.
https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/ei-regular-ben...
It says the following:
You may not be entitled for benefits:
if you voluntarily left your job without just cause
Just document when your boss berates you and then use that as cause with the Unemployment office. That will give you more time to look for a job. Maybe you can contact them and explain your case.
Are you actually making mistakes or does he single you out for no reason? If he is unhappy with your performance, you can ask for reassignment to something you think you would be good at.
If he is doing it with no real reason, he probably just wants you gone.
If he is doing it with no real reason, he probably just wants you gone.
This might help: https://blg.com/en/News-And-Publications/Publication_4539
Have you explored Remote Freelance work? > https://www.toptal.com/
Hey fellow Canuck. Look up the term "constructive dismissal" and you might find it applies to your situation in a most favourable way.
Have you considered moving?
I have been seeking new employment for over a year with no avail, at the point of desperation that I offered to work for half market rate. I've received no offers. The market where I live is bad this year.
What are my options? I have a family, I'm the sole earner, I'm forced to work 10-12 hours a day, with verbal abuse all day. I cannot merely quit, I won't have the money to provide for my family if I do.
Location: Canada