Cooking as a Service(alexdanco.com)
alexdanco.com
Cooking as a Service
https://alexdanco.com/2019/05/09/cooking-as-a-service/
116 comments
As a counter point I frequently linger and chat at restaurants. They do often bring the check but don’t force you to leave immediately. None of my friends have ever been in a rush to leave either.
Waiters are judged by the promptness of their service and it’s less risky to bring you the check than make a wrong call and annoy a table that’s waiting. The better ones tend to leave you alone.
Waiters are judged by the promptness of their service and it’s less risky to bring you the check than make a wrong call and annoy a table that’s waiting. The better ones tend to leave you alone.
Go talk to anybody who has worked for tips - Waiters want as much turnover as possible. It's better to get two tips of 20% then one tip of 25%.
Of course, this doesn't apply when the restaurant is totally empty. Then, they'd rather you stay and keep ordering things to bump up their tips.
Of course, this doesn't apply when the restaurant is totally empty. Then, they'd rather you stay and keep ordering things to bump up their tips.
Believe me, they are dying to get you to leave. Restaurants and servers make their money by doing as many turnovers as they can in a night. If you’re blocking a table the whole night, that’s money they are losing, and they desperately want you to leave. They’re just trying to be polite and/or don’t want a bad Yelp review. When they give you the bill and say “no rush”, they’re lying.
Only once the restaurant is at capacity. If there's at least one other of your type of table open, then the restaurant loses zero marginal dollars by you being there (and arguably gains slightly by looking busy and more attractive).
I'm very conscious about leaving a full restaurant as soon as I'm done with my meal but that's maybe only 10% of my dining experiences ever. I'm perfectly happy to linger at a half full restaurant for as long as I want.
I'm very conscious about leaving a full restaurant as soon as I'm done with my meal but that's maybe only 10% of my dining experiences ever. I'm perfectly happy to linger at a half full restaurant for as long as I want.
There is an etiquette here. We arrive such that by the time we are done traffic is tapering off.
If we came at 5 and stayed the whole night I would imagine we'd be shooed off at some point.
If we came at 5 and stayed the whole night I would imagine we'd be shooed off at some point.
> In the US pretty much every restaurant I've been to hands me the check right after I finish my last bite.
Where in the US is this? In every place I've been to, and I've traveled across a good deal of the country, I often have to flag down a waiter/waitress to get the bill!
I loved all the "pay in advance" restaurants in Japan, or the ones where there is a call button I could press to ask for the bill.
I've spent plenty of time lingering at American restaurants, on a few memorable occasions I've stayed from 6 right up until closing time. Try to avoid doing that, and give an extra tip if I do!
Where in the US is this? In every place I've been to, and I've traveled across a good deal of the country, I often have to flag down a waiter/waitress to get the bill!
I loved all the "pay in advance" restaurants in Japan, or the ones where there is a call button I could press to ask for the bill.
I've spent plenty of time lingering at American restaurants, on a few memorable occasions I've stayed from 6 right up until closing time. Try to avoid doing that, and give an extra tip if I do!
The cost of a restaurant or bar is made up of three basic things: inputs, labour, and rent.
In San Francisco, rent will be the dominant term in that equation, followed closely by the need to pay employees enough to themselves be able to rent nearby.
In sleepier parts of the world, the food itself is the expensive bit, so it matters less if you have people hanging around for longer.
In San Francisco, rent will be the dominant term in that equation, followed closely by the need to pay employees enough to themselves be able to rent nearby.
In sleepier parts of the world, the food itself is the expensive bit, so it matters less if you have people hanging around for longer.
This isn't the reason at all.
Even in expensive Eurocities they don't rush you out the door. In the center of Amsterdam it's sometimes difficult to get a waiter's attention for the check - if you don't take the initiative you'll be there for an hour.
And in cheap American cities they also try to push you out the door.
Even in expensive Eurocities they don't rush you out the door. In the center of Amsterdam it's sometimes difficult to get a waiter's attention for the check - if you don't take the initiative you'll be there for an hour.
And in cheap American cities they also try to push you out the door.
This also depends on the type of the restaurant and what they are make money of. In Germany in most of the restaurant the money is made out off the drinks, while not really from the meal. That is the reason why they ask you, if you want more.
It's also one of the contributing reasons why restaurants in regions with such cultures are more expensive. Patrons who take up tables for longer means that fewer patrons can be served per service which means that overhead costs must be distributed among fewer patrons.
I think that's something considerably more local to your environment and circumstances than the whole US.
It's true. I've dined at a three star Michelein and even they've felt the pressure to turn the tables for more guests/profits. It was done very subtly with an invitation to visit take a tour of the entire restaurant and kitchen, then I ended up at the bar and lounge with my party afterwords. It was all fine, but I'd have preferred sitting at the table.
I'm interested in how the data splits across demographics other than class. One anecdotal observation I've made is that men often do not even consider cooking or learning to cook, while women actively decide not to cook or not to learn. Quite a lot of my female friends either cook or have actively rebelled against any attempts to teach them how to cook. While my guy friends do not cook by default.
It's also quite interesting seeing cooking as a service phrased as "is this exactly what I want, yes or no?" Because that's not wrong, but part of the reason I cook is to get exactly what I want. I like to eat healthier, spicier food with certain restrictions (no dairy, less wheat, etc). But that just makes me an outlier.
I've noticed a trend towards going to a restaurant, picking up food, and eating it somewhere else, which frustrates me endlessly. Not only is there more waste from the extra bag, the extra containers, etc., but also the food gets cold, soggy, i.e. worse. I don't think there's the necessary financial incentives for this, but a delivery service that used something more sustainable (dabbas?) and optimized the food for delivery would be fantastic.
It's also quite interesting seeing cooking as a service phrased as "is this exactly what I want, yes or no?" Because that's not wrong, but part of the reason I cook is to get exactly what I want. I like to eat healthier, spicier food with certain restrictions (no dairy, less wheat, etc). But that just makes me an outlier.
I've noticed a trend towards going to a restaurant, picking up food, and eating it somewhere else, which frustrates me endlessly. Not only is there more waste from the extra bag, the extra containers, etc., but also the food gets cold, soggy, i.e. worse. I don't think there's the necessary financial incentives for this, but a delivery service that used something more sustainable (dabbas?) and optimized the food for delivery would be fantastic.
All of my male friends (and myself as I am male) all cook, and some of us even enjoy it. That said I still eat alot of take out because I work 10-12 hours a day and tend to just pick something up on the way home instead of spending 30-60 mins in the kitchen when i get home. My lack of cooking however does not in anyway equate to my inability to cook.
Maybe it's a cultural thing? I know there are places where men refuse to cook, but most men I know enjoy cooking.
That being said I've noticed men usually pick a few dishes and become really good at cooking them, whereas women will generalise.
That being said I've noticed men usually pick a few dishes and become really good at cooking them, whereas women will generalise.
> I'm interested in how the data splits across demographics other than class. One anecdotal observation I've made is that men often do not even consider cooking or learning to cook, while women actively decide not to cook or not to learn.
Most of the people I know who can cook anything are men; and I think, like me (and like you, it seems), they just wanted to eat something and weren't satisfied with what they could get prepared, and within their budget (including travel). For example, I just decided to make 20L of kimchi one day. I've variously known guys who have built computerized meat smokers, spent considerable time perfecting hummus, bread rolls, that preparation of pork belly they put in the bánh mì...
I think this is a matter of culture, but I can't help but agree that the women and girls I know, for the most part, actively avoid cooking, or are so used to being treated to prepared meals that it's unnecessary.
Sadly I think this comment will just turn grey, and nobody will say anything about why. Gotta love HN.
Most of the people I know who can cook anything are men; and I think, like me (and like you, it seems), they just wanted to eat something and weren't satisfied with what they could get prepared, and within their budget (including travel). For example, I just decided to make 20L of kimchi one day. I've variously known guys who have built computerized meat smokers, spent considerable time perfecting hummus, bread rolls, that preparation of pork belly they put in the bánh mì...
I think this is a matter of culture, but I can't help but agree that the women and girls I know, for the most part, actively avoid cooking, or are so used to being treated to prepared meals that it's unnecessary.
Sadly I think this comment will just turn grey, and nobody will say anything about why. Gotta love HN.
I think it's really polarized for guys. Guys who are into cooking, like myself, are really into cooking. But the vast majority of guys don't even consider cooking.
> For example, I just decided to make 20L of kimchi one day.
Nice! I've been getting into fermentation. I made kimchi a few weeks ago and I'm thinking of doing another batch soon. Also have some sauerkraut that I just made.
> For example, I just decided to make 20L of kimchi one day.
Nice! I've been getting into fermentation. I made kimchi a few weeks ago and I'm thinking of doing another batch soon. Also have some sauerkraut that I just made.
This is probably also culture-dependent. Most of the guys I know (including myself) cook in order to be able to, you know, continue existing. I knew of only one exception, which lasted until his divorce.
Maybe it's all because we as a nation have been through some tough times. It's hard to get used to cooking elaborate meals when you're happy to have anything edible on the table.
Maybe it's all because we as a nation have been through some tough times. It's hard to get used to cooking elaborate meals when you're happy to have anything edible on the table.
In South Korea, when you order from certain places for certain types of food, they come in actual containers/tupperwares that you just leave outside your door and someone from the restaurant will come pick it up at some point.
I don't see it working in the U.S. though, since people would probably be stealing them and other horrific stuff. Just a very different culture...
I don't see it working in the U.S. though, since people would probably be stealing them and other horrific stuff. Just a very different culture...
Green Tiffin is US a meal delivery service that uses reusable containers that you rinse out and then return at the next delivery.
It seems to work just fine, nothing "horrific" about it.
It seems to work just fine, nothing "horrific" about it.
The key word here is "return" because the Korean model is not to return the dishes, its to leave them to be collected.
The horrific part, is an imputed risk the dishes in america become stolen, used as weapons, frisbees..
The horrific part, is an imputed risk the dishes in america become stolen, used as weapons, frisbees..
> The horrific part, is an imputed risk the dishes in america become stolen, used as weapons, frisbees..
I think the primary schools in east asia, excluding China for obvious reasons, are the birthplace [0] of a form of civic cohesion that the U.S. and Canada (virtually the same culture, despite what people say) lack. We have the rule of law and consequences, and that's a good start, but there's a missing piece.
[0] in addition to the home, I guess, but good luck improving that first.
I think the primary schools in east asia, excluding China for obvious reasons, are the birthplace [0] of a form of civic cohesion that the U.S. and Canada (virtually the same culture, despite what people say) lack. We have the rule of law and consequences, and that's a good start, but there's a missing piece.
[0] in addition to the home, I guess, but good luck improving that first.
We have laws to punish bad behavior after it happens, while they have a culture that reinforces good behavior from the start.
Nowadays, it seems like trying to enforce good/proper behavior in the U.S. would be taken as an affront to personal freedom or "forcing one's culture onto others", so perhaps we need a different way to incentivize good behavior in this multicultural society where it's almost a sin to want and expect others to do something for the good of anyone but themselves.
Nowadays, it seems like trying to enforce good/proper behavior in the U.S. would be taken as an affront to personal freedom or "forcing one's culture onto others", so perhaps we need a different way to incentivize good behavior in this multicultural society where it's almost a sin to want and expect others to do something for the good of anyone but themselves.
Make a new culture.
How do we convince other cultures to adapt to the new culture though? Any such efforts would be drowned out by cries of racism and cultural erasure or whatever they're calling it nowadays.
Live better lives for yourselves, conspicuously.
If they're stolen, they'll at least be reused, right?
It is reduce, reuse, recycle in that order for a reason. If it is stolen the restaurant will need to buy another set. And reusing is worse than reducing.
Why reuse them when whoever you stole them from will have fresh ones tomorrow?
I'd agree the risk of dishes being used as frisbees, though low, is likely higher in NA than in Asia.
To add to the anecdata, in my group of friends, most of the people who cook are male, whether for pleasure or for sustenance.
Through my entire dating life, I have found it rare for a woman to know how to cook, let along enjoy it, like I do. It’s been a big sticking point for me.
Through my entire dating life, I have found it rare for a woman to know how to cook, let along enjoy it, like I do. It’s been a big sticking point for me.
Same here. Aside from my own parents, among my group of friends it's usually the man doing the cooking. I cook, and my wife does the dishes. No complaints from me.
Same.
Likely because women were shackled to the kitchen before they burnt their bras. Feminism..at its advent..created this narrative that working outside is great and household work is holding them back from progressing towards gender equality.
However this didn’t translate as much to having children. Despite feminism and higher education and financial independence, women continue to have children at the same rate or higher than before. If anything, impoverished women choose to have lesser children due to the financial burden they’d create for them.
This is confounding to me. Maybe it’s the influence of religion or the biological imperative is stronger because mundane and menial tasks like cooking and even child rearing can be outsourced to cooks, day care and schools.
On a different note, cooking is a communal activity. In societies where work isn’t all consuming, communal bonding occurs through cooking. And so it’s a prized skill to learn. Cooking as a service is brilliant for any economy that places work culture over communal culture. So it will succeed here in the US.
However this didn’t translate as much to having children. Despite feminism and higher education and financial independence, women continue to have children at the same rate or higher than before. If anything, impoverished women choose to have lesser children due to the financial burden they’d create for them.
This is confounding to me. Maybe it’s the influence of religion or the biological imperative is stronger because mundane and menial tasks like cooking and even child rearing can be outsourced to cooks, day care and schools.
On a different note, cooking is a communal activity. In societies where work isn’t all consuming, communal bonding occurs through cooking. And so it’s a prized skill to learn. Cooking as a service is brilliant for any economy that places work culture over communal culture. So it will succeed here in the US.
> women continue to have children at the same rate or higher than before
This is false. Birth rates are way down.
This is false. Birth rates are way down.
Not low enough. Population grows exponentially. With death rate declining, birth rate must slow down significantly as population pressure increases.
Cleaning after yourself is part of the activity. If you don't clean the kitchen, you're not cooking in any meaningful sense. I'm sure you don't leave a mess behind when coding.
I suppose it is always afternoon somewhere, but it seems pretty early to me to be drinking.
This is a great analysis. One giant missing factor: households with children. It's both difficult to match dietary needs and extremely expensive to feed a bunch of dependents with takeout! A lot of folks I know establish entirely new habits as parents.
Perhaps someone will successfully target that demographic, but I expect the social minefield of early parenting will be way harder to penetrate than the easy consumption of young professionals.
Perhaps someone will successfully target that demographic, but I expect the social minefield of early parenting will be way harder to penetrate than the easy consumption of young professionals.
I completely agree. This has been one of my biggest surprises as a relatively new parent - food has become a much bigger issue, because suddenly you're feeding more mouths. So the cost of outsourcing is higher, the benefit of cooking yourself (and thus batching the cooking production) is much higher, etc.
We did indeed establish a lot of new routines for cooking as new parents.
We did indeed establish a lot of new routines for cooking as new parents.
It is not really missing. People are not having children and the ones that do are having a single child on average.
I think it is one of the reasons to take out trend is so high. Of the people under 50 that I work with exactly 1 of them have children, and 1 of them wants children one day (but not now) the rest of us, including myself, have no children and have zero desire to have children. Looking at population data we are not alone in that.
I think it is one of the reasons to take out trend is so high. Of the people under 50 that I work with exactly 1 of them have children, and 1 of them wants children one day (but not now) the rest of us, including myself, have no children and have zero desire to have children. Looking at population data we are not alone in that.
Perhaps not alone, but very very far from the norm. If I may ask, How old are you all? What else about your demographics/work environment could set you so far apart from the average stats?
> How old are you all? What else about your demographics/work environment could set you so far apart from the average stats?
They are young (not yet 40 years of age), have above-average incomes, and live in urban areas. If you cross-reference this population with desire to have kids, you will find them dragging the reproduction rate in this country massively downwards. The opposite is true about... every facet of what I just said.
EDIT: Many people have pointed out why this is a terrible trend, for reasons that are obvious.
They are young (not yet 40 years of age), have above-average incomes, and live in urban areas. If you cross-reference this population with desire to have kids, you will find them dragging the reproduction rate in this country massively downwards. The opposite is true about... every facet of what I just said.
EDIT: Many people have pointed out why this is a terrible trend, for reasons that are obvious.
It has its ups and downs. You may want to read for example https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/04/22/1960-the-year-the-sing...
> Many people have pointed out why this is a terrible trend, for reasons that are obvious
Are they? I am not sure I see the obvious reasons. Considering the future, maybe its a better idea to not have children.
Are they? I am not sure I see the obvious reasons. Considering the future, maybe its a better idea to not have children.
That's a little cynical isn't it?
The world is improving by many, many metrics. Absolute poverty isn't just going down, it's accelerating towards zero. We're also hitting a point where everyone who can be, is connected. Online education is better than ever (for those who seek it). I could go on.
The world is improving by many, many metrics. Absolute poverty isn't just going down, it's accelerating towards zero. We're also hitting a point where everyone who can be, is connected. Online education is better than ever (for those who seek it). I could go on.
Its defintely cynical. Yes, the world is improving in many ways. Poverty is getting pretty better, diseases are fairly easier to fight, and infanticide isn't a thing. However, its also clear that governments have seemingly no interest trying to fight climate change and a large amount of the world is going to be suffering from the consequences of that in the future.
My personal belief is that humans are bad at seeing into the future, but are great at mobilising around here-and-now problems. And I believe the next generation will be the ones to start tackling it while seeing the effects.
I think 100% irreversible processes like microplastics in oceans is something that much more urgently needs dealing with. Repairing the climate is easy compared to filtering trillions of molecules back out the ocean.
I think 100% irreversible processes like microplastics in oceans is something that much more urgently needs dealing with. Repairing the climate is easy compared to filtering trillions of molecules back out the ocean.
Well, maybe but the time it takes for the next generation to get in power, and actually start making changes, it might be too late for many many cities of the world. In times like this, isn't it more responsible to not have children?
Malthus lives!
If educated, professional, and higher-than-average net worth couples are not having kids but people of the inverse characteristics are having kids (at an accelerated rate)...
Mid 30's
how am I "very far from the norm", you must not be looking at the same stats that I am.
Birth Rates are plummeting in the US, we have the lowest birth rates in all of recorded history right now, and if you remove immigration and 2nd generation children (children born to immigrants to the US) we have a massively negative population growth.
No my friend, my generations is not, and does not want to have children
how am I "very far from the norm", you must not be looking at the same stats that I am.
Birth Rates are plummeting in the US, we have the lowest birth rates in all of recorded history right now, and if you remove immigration and 2nd generation children (children born to immigrants to the US) we have a massively negative population growth.
No my friend, my generations is not, and does not want to have children
Our generation is less keen on having kids than any before it, true, but 1 in 50 at mid 30s is still orders of magnitude lower than the statistics I'm aware of. I strongly suspect you have some sort of selection bias going on that you're not aware of.
> People are not having children
People are having fewer children but the change is not quite as stark as you are painting it. The US fertility rate is near or at an all time low, but it's not like it's half what it was in the 80s. It's just a few percent lower than it was forty years ago.
People are having fewer children but the change is not quite as stark as you are painting it. The US fertility rate is near or at an all time low, but it's not like it's half what it was in the 80s. It's just a few percent lower than it was forty years ago.
Global fertility rate is 2.5 children per woman. US closer to 1.8. 70% of women aged 30-34 have a kid; as you get older rises to 85% (can't separate age trends from generational trends, alas).
You can certainly define demographics that will remain childless, but a substantial majority of households will eventually raise a child. Worth considering in a model of how food will be prepared (or any other business it might impact).
You can certainly define demographics that will remain childless, but a substantial majority of households will eventually raise a child. Worth considering in a model of how food will be prepared (or any other business it might impact).
The vast majority of people have children at some point in their lives. Around 80% last I remember.
This really assumes the only point of cooking is sustenance. I think reality is much more complicated. I'd argue that the tradition, culture and craft of cooking is equally important. Having people prepare food on your behalf isn't exactly a new concept.
I think you're tacitly agreeing with the original statement. Cooking (outside a professional seeing) may become one of those things that only some of us do, for tradition, culture and craft, as has become of gardening or sewing.
More that I think (or hope) that it will continue to be widespread because of these things. It may be right, but I like to think it's not the case. That said, I do care much more about the culture of cooking than your average joe.
everybody talks about cooking being fungible with services and services only being held back by tradition, meanwhile just looking at some average prepared meal label should give a stark warning to commoditizing food
Great deck from a former Uber Eats employee on food delivery:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1v9ifaW1Sxy_oVUtzn63B...
I'm pretty shocked how open consumers are to paying more money for a worse product via delivery. Foods travel poorly when steaming in boxes. Hot sandwiches (like burgers) and anything fried are especially notable examples (though most foods become worse in some capacity). Something this deck doesn't mention is that online ordering of pickup is a tiny, no-profit market in comparison. The convenience factor of delivery outweighs the rest for some set of people, for sure.
Big note from the deck though:
> No DSP has been able to prove consistent profitability with their existing business model
Also not mentioned in the slides - a ton of delivery jobs from small neighborhood joints (in the US) are paid under-the-table. This is a cost differentiator that DSPs can't legally compete with.
Big note from the deck though:
> No DSP has been able to prove consistent profitability with their existing business model
Also not mentioned in the slides - a ton of delivery jobs from small neighborhood joints (in the US) are paid under-the-table. This is a cost differentiator that DSPs can't legally compete with.
I think an interesting comparison is baking. Buying bread from a bakery or supermarket has become standard. It's even gotten to a point where baking your own bread might not be cheaper than buying it.
Not everything fits that mold, but I'm sure a few other categories of cooking will end up in that state. But not all things. For instance, rice/beans are just so cheap when dry. I can't see how a prepared version is going to bee cheaper than preparing your own.
Not everything fits that mold, but I'm sure a few other categories of cooking will end up in that state. But not all things. For instance, rice/beans are just so cheap when dry. I can't see how a prepared version is going to bee cheaper than preparing your own.
All of this seems to be merging toward how things work in Paris (for example).
Your apartment is so small that you do everything outside and you mostly replenish things almost daily.
Your apartment is so small that you do everything outside and you mostly replenish things almost daily.
> It's even gotten to a point where baking your own bread might not be cheaper than buying it
Amusingly, there's a book that talks about this specific example [0]. Bread is super cheap to make, but it's also a nuanced thing to do well vs a local bakery.
Oddly, in my experience I've had trouble finding very good sandwich baguettes and similar in a bakery setting (even in NYC - hit me with recommendations). Restaurants that can pull in fresh baked breads daily have much better access to good product it feels like.
[0]: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Bread-Buy-Butter-Shouldnt-ebook/...
Amusingly, there's a book that talks about this specific example [0]. Bread is super cheap to make, but it's also a nuanced thing to do well vs a local bakery.
Oddly, in my experience I've had trouble finding very good sandwich baguettes and similar in a bakery setting (even in NYC - hit me with recommendations). Restaurants that can pull in fresh baked breads daily have much better access to good product it feels like.
[0]: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Bread-Buy-Butter-Shouldnt-ebook/...
I believe the social implications are way more complex.
While TFA compares cooking to sewing or gardening, in terms of a declining in both popularity and personal imperative, beyond the arguable claim that food trumps both those, is the social component.
Not so much that eating can be - let alone is necessarily - more social than pastimes such as gardening, but it's one of the few remaining opportunities to be social, both in the cooking and the partaking.
Of course, the erosion of shared meal times and the likely impacts are already well studied.
In his 1994 book 'The Doubter's Companion', John Ralston Saul observed:
"Restaurants, until recently, were places of refuge for people excluded from the mainstream or seeking to escape it — poor students, aging unmarried men not rich enough to have themselves fed at home, richer men seeking sex not wives, and the proverbial artists leading their irresponsible lives. Over the last half-century, restaurants have risen in importance to fill the void left by the decline of the old public celebrations. They now provide the leading forums of public participation."
While TFA compares cooking to sewing or gardening, in terms of a declining in both popularity and personal imperative, beyond the arguable claim that food trumps both those, is the social component.
Not so much that eating can be - let alone is necessarily - more social than pastimes such as gardening, but it's one of the few remaining opportunities to be social, both in the cooking and the partaking.
Of course, the erosion of shared meal times and the likely impacts are already well studied.
In his 1994 book 'The Doubter's Companion', John Ralston Saul observed:
"Restaurants, until recently, were places of refuge for people excluded from the mainstream or seeking to escape it — poor students, aging unmarried men not rich enough to have themselves fed at home, richer men seeking sex not wives, and the proverbial artists leading their irresponsible lives. Over the last half-century, restaurants have risen in importance to fill the void left by the decline of the old public celebrations. They now provide the leading forums of public participation."
Cooking as a service has been happening for awhile - canned goods, baked goods, boxed goods, frozen or pre-chopped veggies, pre-marinaded meat. At this point the vast majority of products available at grocers have had some sort of prep done to them. It's really just a matter of degrees.
This misses the nuance of the write-up. In fact i think the author even agrees this is well established already. But the nuance here is the ways about which people are optimising for this kind of industry - specifically designing their businesses for delivery, etc.
On Saturday I fed a family of 4 (2 adults and 2 kids) in a Zizzi Restaurant for £50.70+ tip. On Sunday I bought the weeks groceries for same family for £53.76 from Aldi. Sometimes I spend as much as £90 at Aldi, but then, we didn't have desert at Zizzi either.
Why doesn't the article mention ready meals? It may not be new, but that's 'CaaS'.
It'd be interesting to see the same graph with ready meals either broken out as a third category, or included with takeaways.
It'd be interesting to see the same graph with ready meals either broken out as a third category, or included with takeaways.
Ready meals will play a big part, I agree.
In the past they had problems with quality/taste and healthiness.
But new home technology(instant pot,combi-ovens, new microwave tech) combined with better frozen food, or different logistics that would enable chilled meals - could offer healthy, restaurant quality meals.
And there's also a chance that the cost difference between ready meals and cooking at home will become very low.
In the past they had problems with quality/taste and healthiness.
But new home technology(instant pot,combi-ovens, new microwave tech) combined with better frozen food, or different logistics that would enable chilled meals - could offer healthy, restaurant quality meals.
And there's also a chance that the cost difference between ready meals and cooking at home will become very low.
Oh I'm not saying they're not awful, and I don't buy them - just that it seems weird to discuss how we're going to not have kitchens and someone else will cook our food, without mentioning that a lot of people already live like that with ready meals. A microwave needn't have it's own room called a 'kitchen'.
I particularly thought of it because the graph shows the same change across income groups, except that it's time-shifted so that it really got big in the top bracket earliest, in the '70s, then the middle income group in the '80s, and finally the bottom bracket in the '90s.
If ready meals were included, I suspect it would look more level, or at least bring up the lowest income group.
I particularly thought of it because the graph shows the same change across income groups, except that it's time-shifted so that it really got big in the top bracket earliest, in the '70s, then the middle income group in the '80s, and finally the bottom bracket in the '90s.
If ready meals were included, I suspect it would look more level, or at least bring up the lowest income group.
I wonder. Say in one of these rediculously priced costal cities, you convert kitchen into a sleeping room. Would the saved rent (because it can be split more ways) pay for FaaS?
Older apartment buildings in Helsinki didn't have kitchens in the apartments when built. Instead, there was a central kitchen in the building.
Nice article, and good data find. I think a point missed at the end about how we can potentially avoid "healthiness" as a premium/luxury option is by setting a base-line, with canteen style food. Here is an HN discussion about "canteen-style dining": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19792674. India also instituted a similar program at their Aganwadis: https://www.akshayapatra.org/anganwadi-feeding. In addition, there was no coverage about the environmental impact of "Cooking-as-a-Service". It could be worse because of having to transport the goods (and keep them warm or cold), including the packaging that may be disposed, or it could be better if the packaging was re-usable (sent back somehow? everyone uses identical swappable packaging?) or it turns out that scheduled deliveries is more optimizable than N houses all driving to the same restaurant.
Pushing it a bit further and forgetting about regulation for a second... Do you think people will feel comfortable eating food cooked by "strangers"? I can see the efficiency coming from an on demand market for food where anyone can cook anything for anyone and broadcast it in an app (especially in ethnically diverse cities where I'm sure a lot of people know how to cook amazing dishes), I just don't know if our norms and mental barriers will evolve fast enough for us to see that happening in say the next 10 years. It's one thing to enter the car of a "stranger" for an Uber ride, but maybe it's a different thing to eat some food cooked by a stranger?
I think that will be niche if it is at all viable. Most of the shared economy type companies flamed out as it turns out specialization and scale offen matters.
I think other models are much more likely. In Brooklyn, the pizza joint Roberta’s opened up a delivery only kitchen after building a successful restaurant. Others in nyc have opened restaurants after a successful ghost kitchen. In the food truck craze, often the successful trucks leveraged their brands to open physical restaurants.
I think industrial kitchens initially allow restaurants that already have a brand to send chefs to the industrial kitchen to handle the delivery load, saving the cost of restaurant space and making delivery logistics easier. I think industrial kitchens will also make it easier for a young chef to start building a brand with less capital.
I don’t ever see the model working where you go to apartment 301 to grab your takeout order.
I think other models are much more likely. In Brooklyn, the pizza joint Roberta’s opened up a delivery only kitchen after building a successful restaurant. Others in nyc have opened restaurants after a successful ghost kitchen. In the food truck craze, often the successful trucks leveraged their brands to open physical restaurants.
I think industrial kitchens initially allow restaurants that already have a brand to send chefs to the industrial kitchen to handle the delivery load, saving the cost of restaurant space and making delivery logistics easier. I think industrial kitchens will also make it easier for a young chef to start building a brand with less capital.
I don’t ever see the model working where you go to apartment 301 to grab your takeout order.
The rating system on Uber helps. But if someone is driving like an idiot, that’s obvious to most people. But unwashed hands? You’ll never know.
> Do you think people will feel comfortable eating food cooked by "strangers"?
The question is irrelevant. "Uber but for food" isn't going to be randos making meals on demand in their home kitchens, it's going to be increasingly massive (but regulated) commercial kitchens providing meals much like restaurant does. Food preparation benefits from economies of scale.
The question is irrelevant. "Uber but for food" isn't going to be randos making meals on demand in their home kitchens, it's going to be increasingly massive (but regulated) commercial kitchens providing meals much like restaurant does. Food preparation benefits from economies of scale.
Restaurants, takeaways, and ready meals would say yes. Its absolutely nothing new.
Almost all of the food that I eat is cooked by strangers.
Sure. I'm talking about changing where we are on the "stranger" spectrum from say the professional cook of the restaurant you order from to... Maybe some guy with 2 5-star reviews living 5 blocks from you who apparently makes great burgers and who has been loosely vetted by the app... Will you feel comfortable enough to order? I'm sure some people will. But it seems to me that the mental threshold is higher than say taxi->Uber.
I think you have a romanticized notion about who the line cooks are at your local restaurants...
That may be partially true, but there is a grounded sense of accountability in any case. I'm sure you can find issues and your occasional booger eater with any restaurant but, in my experience working in such places, typically those jobs are micromanaged in the sense that the entire routine is choreographed from start to finish to save costs and reduce liability.
We can see egregious examples of displacing any form of accountability in the gig economy to the point that they are already immediately met with distrust and disdain when they encroach on another market.
We can see egregious examples of displacing any form of accountability in the gig economy to the point that they are already immediately met with distrust and disdain when they encroach on another market.
The older example of FaaS would be communal kitchens and dining rooms, e.g. college dormitories or kibbutz lifestyles. In these cases, people arrive to where food is being prepped for them; there is no delivery cost.
Particularly in the case of families, the notion that food delivery will ever become cheap enough to be a default relies on negating delivery costs. It may be so cheap to prepare food in bulk as to offset the cost of labor to prepare it; however, that says nothing as to the cost of labor (and energy) to deliver it.
If we ever do develop some kind of solar-powered delivery drone whose cost amortizes out to practically nothing over the life of all of its deliveries, then maybe yes.
Particularly in the case of families, the notion that food delivery will ever become cheap enough to be a default relies on negating delivery costs. It may be so cheap to prepare food in bulk as to offset the cost of labor to prepare it; however, that says nothing as to the cost of labor (and energy) to deliver it.
If we ever do develop some kind of solar-powered delivery drone whose cost amortizes out to practically nothing over the life of all of its deliveries, then maybe yes.
> Particularly in the case of families, the notion that food delivery will ever become cheap enough to be a default relies on negating delivery costs.
I live in Italy and delivery cost is like 2,50€. And it's the same if I order food just for myself or for 4 people. So I would say that the delivery cost is cheaper per person for families than for a single person.
I live in Italy and delivery cost is like 2,50€. And it's the same if I order food just for myself or for 4 people. So I would say that the delivery cost is cheaper per person for families than for a single person.
Interesting article. Hard to argue that we're going to value convenience more and more. As I heard someone else say, in 1900 it would have been pretty inconceivable athta in 2000 we wouldn't be sewing out clothes.
If you are interested in starting your own cloud kitchen, these folks have written up step by step instructions (disclaimer: I was involved with the company as CTO for a couple of years): https://www.thefoodcorridor.com/2019/04/30/how-to-start-your...
If you are interested in starting your own cloud kitchen, these folks have written up step by step instructions (disclaimer: I was involved with the company as CTO for a couple of years): https://www.thefoodcorridor.com/2019/04/30/how-to-start-your...
Are there tax implications to explore here? Cooking for yourself is tax-free (in terms of labor, you're paying sales tax or VAT on the ingredients). Cooking for others is taxed.
Here (in the UK) food is generally zero-rated for VAT if you're cooking it yourself, but not if you're eating it at a restaurant or getting (hot) takeout.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-...
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-...
How about Cooking-As-A-Service but you have to use my tiny NY kitchen and it’s barely sufficient utensils/ware.
Is this new? Food courts and beer gardens that I go complement their sales by using lots of delivery services, and in some days you will see more delivery than local consumption.
There are four major delivery companies that dominates the market here in this city: iFood, James Delivery, Rappi and lastly Uber Eats. A couple of these companies also do supermarket shopping for you - no Amazon in Brazil for everything shopping.
There are four major delivery companies that dominates the market here in this city: iFood, James Delivery, Rappi and lastly Uber Eats. A couple of these companies also do supermarket shopping for you - no Amazon in Brazil for everything shopping.
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+1 for "cooking healthily" rather than "cooking healthy"
Home cooking is too personal to be out sourced as a service.
When you cook yourself you optimize for YOUR health, YOUR taste, YOUR budget, etc.
Restaurants and personal chiefs exist for those who would rather trade some of these benefits for convenience.
When you cook yourself you optimize for YOUR health, YOUR taste, YOUR budget, etc.
Restaurants and personal chiefs exist for those who would rather trade some of these benefits for convenience.
Just think about all the dust bunnies and body hair that gets in your meal when somebody else cooks it, though.
> Cooking will, by 2040, be a niche activity like e.g. gardening or sewing
This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a long, long time.
Most families simply do not have the money for prepared food to feed their family regularly, and there's no evidence that this is changing at all. Grocery store ingredients are vastly cheaper than anything prepared, and food prep is fundamentally labor-intensive no matter what. The limits of cost advantages from scaling have already been reached: it's called the freezer section, but at most it's a moderate convenience for some.
Further, the graphs show for all income levels that "away" food increased substantially from 1965-1994... and then has stayed mainly the same, actually decreasing from 2004-2007 across all income levels, so there's zero evidence for any trend between now and 2040.
So... a third of meals are "away" and that's been stable over the past 25 years? Sounds to me like people eat lunch out... and that's it.
This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a long, long time.
Most families simply do not have the money for prepared food to feed their family regularly, and there's no evidence that this is changing at all. Grocery store ingredients are vastly cheaper than anything prepared, and food prep is fundamentally labor-intensive no matter what. The limits of cost advantages from scaling have already been reached: it's called the freezer section, but at most it's a moderate convenience for some.
Further, the graphs show for all income levels that "away" food increased substantially from 1965-1994... and then has stayed mainly the same, actually decreasing from 2004-2007 across all income levels, so there's zero evidence for any trend between now and 2040.
So... a third of meals are "away" and that's been stable over the past 25 years? Sounds to me like people eat lunch out... and that's it.
Everyone individual needs to cook thrice a day (or at least once a day + be damn good at packaging it) while gardening or sewing are far from essentials. Definitely concur.
> Everyone individual needs to cook thrice a day (or at least once a day + be damn good at packaging it)
Some meals are generally not regarded as cooking, putting cereal and milk in a bowl, making toast, slapping a few ingredients on a sandwich, those will always be cheaper and easier to just do yourself. Apart from that there are many meals you can easily make yourself and have last for 2-3 meals or amortize the time over the number of people eating it.
Tonight I'll be making spaghetti bolognese for under $10AU and it will last a huge dinner and two lunches, it takes under 10 minutes to shop for and half an hour to make, the majority of which will be spent on entertainment while I stir the pots every couple of minutes, the "damn good at packaging" is putting it in microwavable containers. If I was having this delivered I'd by looking at $20AU+ for a single meal, if it was eat-in I'd blow which of the time saving travelling and waiting to be served anyway. Other meals can be even less effort, like when you've got a rice cooker doing the heavy lifting.
Outsourcing food production saves little time, costs a lot more and will often deliver worse results, especially if you factor dietary factors into "worse results".
Some meals are generally not regarded as cooking, putting cereal and milk in a bowl, making toast, slapping a few ingredients on a sandwich, those will always be cheaper and easier to just do yourself. Apart from that there are many meals you can easily make yourself and have last for 2-3 meals or amortize the time over the number of people eating it.
Tonight I'll be making spaghetti bolognese for under $10AU and it will last a huge dinner and two lunches, it takes under 10 minutes to shop for and half an hour to make, the majority of which will be spent on entertainment while I stir the pots every couple of minutes, the "damn good at packaging" is putting it in microwavable containers. If I was having this delivered I'd by looking at $20AU+ for a single meal, if it was eat-in I'd blow which of the time saving travelling and waiting to be served anyway. Other meals can be even less effort, like when you've got a rice cooker doing the heavy lifting.
Outsourcing food production saves little time, costs a lot more and will often deliver worse results, especially if you factor dietary factors into "worse results".
No. Not everyone eats three times a day.
This is a silly semantic point and you know it.
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if you don't have the money, how do you have the time?
This whole service economy model just seems to me like a way to concentrate wealth (and, therefore, power) even further. It's like we've decided it's really inefficient to have the working population's wages tied up in houses, cars, cookware etc. when we could just have them funnel that money directly back into the coffers of the corporations that own more and more of everything.
Do we need to revisit the definition of a company town?
Do we need to revisit the definition of a company town?
The whole service economy model is premised on wide availability of cheap fossil energy. Once that is gone [1], collapse is inevitable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil
Why does it matter where the energy comes from? Between natural gas, nuclear, and renewables, I see no reason to believe that energy costs will increase
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In other countries (e.g., Mediterranean region), it is perfectly normal to linger for a couple of hours after finishing your dinner. The social experience is the point of the restaurant visit, the food and drinks are just a catalyst.