Tim Ferris: 3 More Case Studies of Successful Cash-Flow Businesses(fourhourworkweek.com)
fourhourworkweek.com
Tim Ferris: 3 More Case Studies of Successful Cash-Flow Businesses
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/12/11/engineering-a-muse-volume-2-case-studies-of-successful-cash-flow-businesses/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+timferriss+%28The+Blog+of+Author+Tim+Ferriss%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher
64 comments
I understand the point you're making. However, consider: Logically, "you're telling people what they want to hear" has no relationship to the merits of what's being told. What people want to hear might be false, or it might be true. For example, if I told my mother "your son loves you very much," it's true that I'd be telling her what she wants to hear; I'd also be telling the truth. On the contrary, if I told that to Rashida Jones, it might be what she wants to hear, but it wouldn't be the truth.
I might also add that a lot of what Paul Graham writes could be classified as "telling smart hackers what they want to hear." After all, the message is: you can get rich and be respected, yes, you; there are few downsides to trying and massive upside, and you need never toil for a big, slow company with a big, slow boss. That's all very much what smart hackers want to hear. But it's also, I think, totally true.
It's wise to be skeptical of advice that conforms to the hopes of its audience. But it's equally wise to be skeptical of advice that doesn't so conform. What people want and what happens to be true don't bear any necessary relationship. If what Tim Ferriss is selling are books full of untrue things, then that's a fair criticism; but it's the only criticism that really makes any sense. And it's not one that I tend to hear. Rather, people react to his attitude, which while understandable, isn't actually an argument.
I might also add that a lot of what Paul Graham writes could be classified as "telling smart hackers what they want to hear." After all, the message is: you can get rich and be respected, yes, you; there are few downsides to trying and massive upside, and you need never toil for a big, slow company with a big, slow boss. That's all very much what smart hackers want to hear. But it's also, I think, totally true.
It's wise to be skeptical of advice that conforms to the hopes of its audience. But it's equally wise to be skeptical of advice that doesn't so conform. What people want and what happens to be true don't bear any necessary relationship. If what Tim Ferriss is selling are books full of untrue things, then that's a fair criticism; but it's the only criticism that really makes any sense. And it's not one that I tend to hear. Rather, people react to his attitude, which while understandable, isn't actually an argument.
You're right. So it's good to discuss this kind of thing with a few alpha-geeks, who will give both sides of the story a proper thrashing. Forcefully considering both sides of the arguement, and only adopting your preferred side if it wins by a wide margin, is kinda the scientific method.
Besides, argueing is fun if you're an alpha-geek.
Paul Graham has points I agree with. He has points I disagree with.
Tim Ferris has 3 good points - automate stuff, get into business, and sieze every oppertunity. He also has a big mass of platitudes. The problem is, he makes it sound as if his points are the only ones that matter. There are lots of other important rules that you have to follow in most businesses.
Besides, argueing is fun if you're an alpha-geek.
Paul Graham has points I agree with. He has points I disagree with.
Tim Ferris has 3 good points - automate stuff, get into business, and sieze every oppertunity. He also has a big mass of platitudes. The problem is, he makes it sound as if his points are the only ones that matter. There are lots of other important rules that you have to follow in most businesses.
I admire Tim as a person. He has done an amazing job making a name for himself. Everything he talks about is ridiculously well-researched. He's not a snakeoil salesman. For example, I have a copy of his book 4 Hour Body.. the thing is 600 pages, mentions no less than 50 doctors with whom he consulted while writing the book and endless citations that support what he says.
He has personally helped with some aspects of my fundraising process, despite having been right in the middle of his book launch, and taken the time to listen to me and help me through some situations - both with my startup and with health/fitness advice.
He has personally helped with some aspects of my fundraising process, despite having been right in the middle of his book launch, and taken the time to listen to me and help me through some situations - both with my startup and with health/fitness advice.
"He's not a snakeoil salesman."
This is an ironic endorsement.
One of his enterprises is called 'Brain-Quicken,' and it's the quintessential snake oil operation.
I have no respect for people with the ability of Tim Ferris when they also have the scruples of Tim Ferris.
This is an ironic endorsement.
One of his enterprises is called 'Brain-Quicken,' and it's the quintessential snake oil operation.
I have no respect for people with the ability of Tim Ferris when they also have the scruples of Tim Ferris.
Could you back that up with some evidence? I'm a firm follower in a lot of what Tim says, and everything in his book so far seems to be well researched, and provides a lot of scientific reasoning.
He's referring to Tim's first "4-hour" business, which was a suppliment/energy drink business. http://www.brainquicken.com/
Yes, that's right.
My initial suspicion while reading the book was that he outsourced the research and writing for most of 4HWW. I reckon he asked one of his virtual assistants to write up the draft of what you can use virtual assistants for...and went from there.
Still, I respect the guy for maxing out the idea, and he's certainly hugely driven.
Still, I respect the guy for maxing out the idea, and he's certainly hugely driven.
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He came out with a book about fitness? Here's my response to his blog post on how he gained 34lbs of muscle in 4 weeks:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=529040 (tl;dr summary: He made outrageous claims and employed photographic tricks.)
I haven't read it yet, but it seems more 'body hacking' than 'fitness,' exactly: http://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Body-Uncommon-Incredible-Superh...
It's the old trick. You get rich by selling people a book that tells them how to get rich. The book says "You should get rich by selling people a book which tells them how to get rich".
He got rich by creating a supplement company, and subsequently selling that. Then creating himself a profile with his book.
If i remember correctly Tim Ferris became successful by selling supplements before he wrote his book.
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It bugs me that the 4HWW advocates finding a "muse" to earn your living instead of creating something of actual value. That book explains why there are so many fitness ebooks written by The Situation and friends.
That being said, "ask for forgiveness, not permission" is great advice. It changes the way you approach problems. Anything that gets you to question the way you think is gold. In that way, the book is awesome.
That being said, "ask for forgiveness, not permission" is great advice. It changes the way you approach problems. Anything that gets you to question the way you think is gold. In that way, the book is awesome.
> instead of creating something of actual value.
Not to bring up this old discussion again, but all of these business provide 'value.' This is capitalism; if someone pays for it, they find it valuable. You're creating some sort of secondary game where certain businesses are below you, Tim's just trying to tell everyone to play the real game.
Not to bring up this old discussion again, but all of these business provide 'value.' This is capitalism; if someone pays for it, they find it valuable. You're creating some sort of secondary game where certain businesses are below you, Tim's just trying to tell everyone to play the real game.
Fraud is certainly beneath me.
I expect I could make some money selling magic "quantum" stickers that enhance the sound of an audio system, making them for pennies and selling for hundreds of dollars. But that would be wrong.
I expect I could make some money selling magic "quantum" stickers that enhance the sound of an audio system, making them for pennies and selling for hundreds of dollars. But that would be wrong.
I'm not saying writing and selling ebooks is an inferior business. I've bought a lot of great ebooks. But if you read the 4HWW closely, he recommends rehashing content from other sources and claims by doing so it justifies you to call yourself an expert. That's disingenuous at best and plagiarism at worst.
I do expected to be down voted for what I say, but hey, who cares. Reading a lot fo the comments on this really do disgust me, a bit.
"Tim Ferriss started by selling people the idea that they could be successful too" -- His career was actually started by starting a supplements company. All of the information he gives in the Four Hour Work Week was pre-4HWW. Which means he had to have some income to travel the world, and outline all the feats he does in the blurb.
"Why would anyone take advice from him beats me, but that's another story." -- Because he has a huge amount of previous experience in the topics he preaches. He backs them up with case studies, data and scientific evidence (especially the 4HBody).
A lot of people see a self-help book and immediately cry snake oil salesman!.
This guy may bother a lot of people, but who cares. I know a lot of people that bother me. Ergh, I'm ranting.
"Tim Ferriss started by selling people the idea that they could be successful too" -- His career was actually started by starting a supplements company. All of the information he gives in the Four Hour Work Week was pre-4HWW. Which means he had to have some income to travel the world, and outline all the feats he does in the blurb.
"Why would anyone take advice from him beats me, but that's another story." -- Because he has a huge amount of previous experience in the topics he preaches. He backs them up with case studies, data and scientific evidence (especially the 4HBody).
A lot of people see a self-help book and immediately cry snake oil salesman!.
This guy may bother a lot of people, but who cares. I know a lot of people that bother me. Ergh, I'm ranting.
"Because he has a huge amount of previous experience in the topics he preaches. He backs them up with case studies, data and scientific evidence (especially the 4HBody)."
What I see is a guy who got lucky once, in an industry rife with fraudulent or borderline-fraudulent claims and huge markups. I'm sure the oily guy in the infomercials selling "colon cleanse" quackery makes lots of money too.
Now, because he lacks more meaningful entrepreneurial skills, he's leveraging that early experience into the self-help field, a field not known for a high barrier for entry, and where the customers are not particularly demanding.
I just don't see any there there. In the universe of accomplishment, "sold snake oil supplements and self-help books amid rabid self-promotion" just doesn't amount to very much, as profitable as it may be for him.
What I see is a guy who got lucky once, in an industry rife with fraudulent or borderline-fraudulent claims and huge markups. I'm sure the oily guy in the infomercials selling "colon cleanse" quackery makes lots of money too.
Now, because he lacks more meaningful entrepreneurial skills, he's leveraging that early experience into the self-help field, a field not known for a high barrier for entry, and where the customers are not particularly demanding.
I just don't see any there there. In the universe of accomplishment, "sold snake oil supplements and self-help books amid rabid self-promotion" just doesn't amount to very much, as profitable as it may be for him.
The people on HN think that the world revolves around start-ups and Paul Graham's philosophies. It doesn't. There are a lot more ways of making money in this world.
I am actually shocked that people on this site would buy in to Paul Grahams philosophies. I mean why would they? This is a community site about startups(at least originally), that was developed by PG, for a company who funds startups(YC).
How appalling.
How appalling.
"Make sure that you have your business basics down first. Proper business bank account(s), incorporate earlier, record expenses properly, keep receipts, and get your accounting straight. It’s very hard to switch things over later, so invest some time at the outset and get it right."
How hard is it to switch from sole proprietorship to s-corp/llc if you keep your accounting straight and use your personal bank account?
How hard is it to switch from sole proprietorship to s-corp/llc if you keep your accounting straight and use your personal bank account?
Are you actually asking?: "How hard is it to switch from sole proprietorship to s-corp/llc if you keep your accounting straight and use your personal bank account?"
Not hard at all. If you are a sole prop, American citizen, paperwork in order then it is very easy and a law firm could do it in a couple of k. Orrick has Start-up docs on their website for free.
Not hard at all. If you are a sole prop, American citizen, paperwork in order then it is very easy and a law firm could do it in a couple of k. Orrick has Start-up docs on their website for free.
However, remember that going from an LLC to anything else is very expensive. This varies state to state, in the USA. We formed an LLC in Virginia. Our lawyer warned us that if we ever wanted to go to Wall Street and become public, then a standard C form corp was far more appropriate. And you can not easily transition from LLC to C form corp. Our lawyer told us that the IRS would treat is as liquidation sale and tax everything we had - in other words, it would never make rational sense to do this. It would be as if our LLC went broke and was liquidated and then was bought by the new C form corp.
When we closed down that LLC, there was intellectual property we had to entangle, so that it could go back to belonging to various individuals, all of whom were continuing with their careers. This was messy. We had a highly customized partnership agreement for our LLC. That is the great thing about LLCs - that they allow such flexibility (this, too, varies state by state in the USA. Virginia allows a great deal of flexibility). My advice is, if you form an LLC with other people, put in a clause about shutting down. Essentially, negotiate a pre-nup. Divorce goes easier when everyone knows ahead of time exactly how it will be conducted.
When we closed down that LLC, there was intellectual property we had to entangle, so that it could go back to belonging to various individuals, all of whom were continuing with their careers. This was messy. We had a highly customized partnership agreement for our LLC. That is the great thing about LLCs - that they allow such flexibility (this, too, varies state by state in the USA. Virginia allows a great deal of flexibility). My advice is, if you form an LLC with other people, put in a clause about shutting down. Essentially, negotiate a pre-nup. Divorce goes easier when everyone knows ahead of time exactly how it will be conducted.
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Does this guy bother anyone else as much as he bothers me?
The real value in Tim Ferriss' work for me is not usually in the actual content (This blog posts talks about where to register domain names rather than nitty-gritty business details, for example) but rather in observing how well he sells himself and understand what people want. He obviously does a lot of research and testing, and his posts are carefully tailored to sell dreams to large portions of the population.
He has two books: One sells you on the dream of world travel with minimal work, interspersed with stories about how awesome he is and how you, too, can be just as awesome if you follow his instructions. Nevermind the fact that he clearly states he wrote the book because he became successful by working long hours and working very hard to make his company successful.
His second (upcoming) book is all about how to 'beat the system' when it comes to eating and fitness. He talks about losing body fat while eating anything he wants using little-known secrets, among other things.
Finally, his blog (and this post in particular) tell a lot of feel-good stories that feel just within reach. He's a master at weaving a narrative that makes you feel like you want his lifestyle, and that it's within reach if you just follow his simple advice.
So what do these all have in common? He's a master at selling people on an idea, even when all of the facts don't quite line up. His works all make lofty promises, but they all seem just crazy enough to still be within reach. He even puts reverse-psychology disclaimers throughout his works to trip up your own sense of disbelief. Meanwhile, he has become wealthy and successful not by following his own advice, but by selling his advice to others.
The takeaway: Learn from his techniques and products, not from his advice. And there's a lot to learn if you step back and look at it.
He has two books: One sells you on the dream of world travel with minimal work, interspersed with stories about how awesome he is and how you, too, can be just as awesome if you follow his instructions. Nevermind the fact that he clearly states he wrote the book because he became successful by working long hours and working very hard to make his company successful.
His second (upcoming) book is all about how to 'beat the system' when it comes to eating and fitness. He talks about losing body fat while eating anything he wants using little-known secrets, among other things.
Finally, his blog (and this post in particular) tell a lot of feel-good stories that feel just within reach. He's a master at weaving a narrative that makes you feel like you want his lifestyle, and that it's within reach if you just follow his simple advice.
So what do these all have in common? He's a master at selling people on an idea, even when all of the facts don't quite line up. His works all make lofty promises, but they all seem just crazy enough to still be within reach. He even puts reverse-psychology disclaimers throughout his works to trip up your own sense of disbelief. Meanwhile, he has become wealthy and successful not by following his own advice, but by selling his advice to others.
The takeaway: Learn from his techniques and products, not from his advice. And there's a lot to learn if you step back and look at it.
I really like your analysis. I just had the realization that Tim Ferris is basically Oprah for men.
I was just pondering getting his book, but then I read the comments here and reconsidered. Is it worth reading? Obviously you won't get a 4-hour work week, but is there anything of value in it?
I personally really enjoyed it — people whine about "outsourcing everything" but why not outsource all the tasks you don't like doing, ergo reducing your "work" (stuff you don't like doing)?
There are also a lot of good stories about taking mini-retirements regularly rather than saving up for one large one and ways you can make it happen by convincing your boss to let you work remotely or by quitting, so it's not just about outsourcing.
There are also a lot of good stories about taking mini-retirements regularly rather than saving up for one large one and ways you can make it happen by convincing your boss to let you work remotely or by quitting, so it's not just about outsourcing.
It's worth reading. People have sour grapes about others being successful.
Ah, thanks.
I scanned it in the bookstore one weekend a while back. The gist (what I can remember anyway) is to outsource everything. He basically outsourced his whole life and most business activities using various web outsourcing services like Freelancer.com and whatnot. There were some other little innovations to go along with it, but that's what I remember most.
It's worth a quick speed read in the bookstore, but I wouldn't buy it.
It's worth a quick speed read in the bookstore, but I wouldn't buy it.
I see, thank you.
Buy it, read with a critical eye. Its not hard to look past the bollocks but there are good/interesting things to pick up
Stavros, you're in the UK, right? If you want a copy of his book, send an email to books (at) allwein dot org with your mailing address and I'll get a copy sent off to you.
For US folk, I've got two other copies of his book, one of the original release and then a copy of the updated ones from last year. Claim it here and then send me an email with your address and I'll send them out.
For US folk, I've got two other copies of his book, one of the original release and then a copy of the updated ones from last year. Claim it here and then send me an email with your address and I'll send them out.
Yes. I mean, I think the guy is an arrogant, unethical bastard, but IF you can just get past that and keep an open mind I think he does have a few interesting points on productivity, priorities, questioning what you really want, etc. There's actually a lot of stuff in the book that I agree with, but there's a lot that really irks me, too.
I don't know enough to comment one way or the other about the guy, but it seems a bit harsh to call him arrogant and unethical without at least describing how/why.
In the spirit of Tim Ferriss, outsource the purchase and reading of the book to someone else.
I understand what you mean... he's earned himself a reputation as a bit of an egomaniac. To be fair though, his book is how I was first exposed to MVP ideas and his approach to life and business changed my life. Granted, it took a lot of work and a lot more digging once I got past 4HWW, but it was an eye opener nonetheless.
I think a lot of blatant self promotion comes across as spammy to "people like me" (for lack of any real description of what that might be), but the more I look around, the more I realize that most people eat it up.
I think a lot of blatant self promotion comes across as spammy to "people like me" (for lack of any real description of what that might be), but the more I look around, the more I realize that most people eat it up.
You should have been at RailsConf '09 where he was a keynote speaker. It seemed half the audience walked out and the chatter on twitter was quite negative ... so, to answer your question, yes.
http://www.railsinside.com/events/285-tim-ferriss-railsconf-...
http://www.railsinside.com/events/285-tim-ferriss-railsconf-...
I won't go that far, but I did notice that they completely glossed over her mention of partners in the interview with the laptop stand woman.
Ferriss is certainly invested in the idea of one-person financial power, but in the laptop-stand case study there would seem to be more to the story.
Ferriss is certainly invested in the idea of one-person financial power, but in the laptop-stand case study there would seem to be more to the story.
It would seem that there's almost always more to the story, and his overall message ("you, too, can have financial freedom all by yourself...now go have fun") might be stronger if he acknowledged that, yes, it's hard to build a company to that point.
What I think is valuable is the constant reminder that the business/income-building is a means to an end, and there's a wide world of choices out there for what the "end" is.
What I think is valuable is the constant reminder that the business/income-building is a means to an end, and there's a wide world of choices out there for what the "end" is.
is the constant reminder that the business/income-building is a means to an end, and there's a wide world of choices out there for what the "end" is
I think the lesson of the story is that there are so many people and competitors now that running a business/muse as a means to an end is impossible unless you lower your expectations as to what an end is.
You must either lower your expectation by living in 3rd world countries as Ferris suggests, or work 7-days a week like Tim Ferris did on his herbal supplement company. Or be plain lucky and find a niche that no one has found out like the ones shown here. Most niche ideas fail.
I think the lesson of the story is that there are so many people and competitors now that running a business/muse as a means to an end is impossible unless you lower your expectations as to what an end is.
You must either lower your expectation by living in 3rd world countries as Ferris suggests, or work 7-days a week like Tim Ferris did on his herbal supplement company. Or be plain lucky and find a niche that no one has found out like the ones shown here. Most niche ideas fail.
I don't understand the down-votes. Am I offending someone's vision of Tim Ferris's 4 hour work week?
I'll weigh in because I know Jason, one of the people profiled. His modesty obscures the fact that starting, running, and growing Clockspot wasn't an easy ride by any means.
But Jason did pull this off almost entirely on his own.
But Jason did pull this off almost entirely on his own.
Clockspot was actually the one example that did resonate with me, as I'm working toward a similar kind of soup-to-nuts one-man app stack that he did in creating a time-clock with mobile clients. I mean, it's straightforward and doesn't involve Hard Problems other than having to use at least a couple different and possibly-newish languages, right? It's seems to be pretty much a textbook REST app.
I also really like seeing improved and successful implementations of existing technology, proven in the story by the example of his dad being perfectly willing to get a punch style timeclock in this day and age. And not only is Clockspot able to leverage the history of timeclocks, it can also be seen to be a kind of "time twitter," so all of the published domain expertise about implementing that can be relied on to provide another huge chunk of the app and mobile clients.
Which is why software patents are bad. ;)
I also really like seeing improved and successful implementations of existing technology, proven in the story by the example of his dad being perfectly willing to get a punch style timeclock in this day and age. And not only is Clockspot able to leverage the history of timeclocks, it can also be seen to be a kind of "time twitter," so all of the published domain expertise about implementing that can be relied on to provide another huge chunk of the app and mobile clients.
Which is why software patents are bad. ;)
soup-to-nuts one-man app stack... porn music plays
Clockspot looks really nice and by the numbers quoted it sounds very successful.
I'm quite intrigued by how he arrived at the current pricing model. It looks like it's been through a few iterations and I'd be really interested to learn more about it.
Does anyone know if this has been discussed anywhere online?
I'm quite intrigued by how he arrived at the current pricing model. It looks like it's been through a few iterations and I'd be really interested to learn more about it.
Does anyone know if this has been discussed anywhere online?
I work with Jason. If you're interested, ping me and we'll be happy to tell you about it. vladik at clockspot dot com
The recent trend of him outsourcing his own posts is really annoying.
I don't understand how anyone can learn anything from someone who has pretty much diluted his work to appeal to the widest possible audience.
I mean the guy has a weight loss book now.
EDIT: Most of his recent posts have been "guest" posts, which I consider the same as "outsourced" since he didn't write it himself.
I don't understand how anyone can learn anything from someone who has pretty much diluted his work to appeal to the widest possible audience.
I mean the guy has a weight loss book now.
EDIT: Most of his recent posts have been "guest" posts, which I consider the same as "outsourced" since he didn't write it himself.
Interesting. I didn't know he outsourced his blog posts. Can you give me the link for that?
Most of his best content wasn't outsourced though. There's plenty of that too.
Most blogs call them "guest posts" — outsourcing implies that he's not explicitly saying it's written by another person.
Here's an example: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/11/21/bill-clinton...
Here's an example: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/11/21/bill-clinton...
The thing about Tim Ferris' solution to improving your life is that it is built on the base of people who cannot work 4 hour work weeks.
It is like a Multi-Level Market company, except now with time being sold instead of products. Eventually, you will reach a mass of people doing lots of work, for a low cost, just so that someone can outsource the boring parts of his business and tell the world he did it in 4 hours a week, but the true cost, paid by someone else, isn't.
Which if you think about it, is pretty much how the world works. A base of people powering the few at the top.
The one thing that really really irks me, is that people who I've met, and I'm not talking about Tim, who goes with the 4hww philosophy is that they never truly appreciate the work done by the people at the base. They make all the money, but will tell the producers of the work, hey, I can easily outsource this website design to another Indian programmer for half the cost, so you better lower your price or I won't use you.
The base is dispensable.
It is like a Multi-Level Market company, except now with time being sold instead of products. Eventually, you will reach a mass of people doing lots of work, for a low cost, just so that someone can outsource the boring parts of his business and tell the world he did it in 4 hours a week, but the true cost, paid by someone else, isn't.
Which if you think about it, is pretty much how the world works. A base of people powering the few at the top.
The one thing that really really irks me, is that people who I've met, and I'm not talking about Tim, who goes with the 4hww philosophy is that they never truly appreciate the work done by the people at the base. They make all the money, but will tell the producers of the work, hey, I can easily outsource this website design to another Indian programmer for half the cost, so you better lower your price or I won't use you.
The base is dispensable.
next book: how i made a million dollars in real estate by writing this book about making millions in real estate
Some of the questions seem really stupid. ``Where did you register the domain name?'' seriously? How is that ever an issue. It could have been so much better if there had been a real interview. Lazy journalism?
Because HN readers aren't his target audience. Most people have no idea where to go to register a domain or host a site or how to evaluate different options.
Instead they chose based upon what other people have chosen. That's why he asks those questions.
Instead they chose based upon what other people have chosen. That's why he asks those questions.
Except that his entire career and success is based on telling people what they want to hear.
First it was "you can be successful and you don't even need to work hard", more recently he's turned his attention to lifestyle advice such as how to lose weight, how to swim faster, how to look better.
Why would anyone take advice from him beats me, but that's another story.