In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
In Japan, It’s a Riveting TV Plot: Can a Worker Go Home on Time?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/business/japan-work-overtime-tv-show.html
148 comments
I read the book “Why we sleep” and they present some statistics from studies.
One being that lack of quality sleep from working such long hours which can negatively impact sleep and has massive economic costs due to workspace accidents, errors and poor judgement.
From memory, one statistic showed Japan was losing the most money by far.
I highly recommend the book for those interested in improving your life.
One being that lack of quality sleep from working such long hours which can negatively impact sleep and has massive economic costs due to workspace accidents, errors and poor judgement.
From memory, one statistic showed Japan was losing the most money by far.
I highly recommend the book for those interested in improving your life.
I found that study. It's pretty neat.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1791.html (PDF link near bottom)
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1791.html (PDF link near bottom)
I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean when you clarify emergencies. I'd like to add that it's pretty silly how many hours doctors work regularly. In a triage situation, it's understandable for someone with that job to work 100 hours, but if that is a regular week they will make unnecessary mistakes.
Ditto. Happened to me in Tokyo - I was told work times were flexible and so in order to avoid peak Yamanote traffic I started doing 7-4 only to receive an passive-aggressive e-mail from the HR person that such behaviour can't be tolerated.
> This can't continue
It doesn't continue, I have never accepted that or let it get to me. Why do you?
It doesn't continue, I have never accepted that or let it get to me. Why do you?
Hours in front of screen are perhaps the easiest metric to check up on workers. Unfortunately, it's also not well correlated to productivity! Lazy managing, for sure.
Personally, I'm pessimistic that any metric about productivity can be useful in the long term, but I recognize that in this reality, there WILL be metrics used to judge you. So, what's the best way to handle this? Is there anything an individual contributor can do to guide towards better metrics, or even just the perception of such?
Personally, I'm pessimistic that any metric about productivity can be useful in the long term, but I recognize that in this reality, there WILL be metrics used to judge you. So, what's the best way to handle this? Is there anything an individual contributor can do to guide towards better metrics, or even just the perception of such?
> IMHO, the only reasons to work long hours are - real emergencies (like the kind doctors and cops deal with, not the kind when some photo sharing app goes down for 15 mins)
Even that doesn't make tech look great. Hours are bad for most doctors, but it seems like emergency medicine handles it a lot better. Doing some brief reading it looks like doctors can work 40 hours a week or under in the ER if they want to, and this is shift work.
The poll here tops out at 45hrs/week https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-many-hours-are-...
Even that doesn't make tech look great. Hours are bad for most doctors, but it seems like emergency medicine handles it a lot better. Doing some brief reading it looks like doctors can work 40 hours a week or under in the ER if they want to, and this is shift work.
The poll here tops out at 45hrs/week https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-many-hours-are-...
The problem with the way doc hours are handled is: there's zero back-up. Whether private practice or group or hospital, everyone is utilized at maximum. I had a colleague once get terrible food poisoning - and had to come in anyway. They crawled in. We saw them, stole a bed from the trauma surgeons' on-call room, stuck an IV in him, and told him to sleep.
When he emerged two hours later, clinging to his IV pole, we were grateful for the manpower.
That's not counting all of our "unofficial hours". You officially work, whatever, 9-6. You're packed with patients for those hours, though, with almost no time to chart, so you go home and chart ... and on a daily basis at home, you're catching texts from colleagues for informal consults and requests to see patients the next day. Your "off" hours aren't off - and if you have to take call, and end up driving back to the hospital...
EM "handles it better" (a phrase I'm loathe to use) because they have legit shift work, with no continuity. No one calls them for a consult; they're not responsible for anyone after they leave because all their patients are short-stay, they don't have to see "every patient on X roster," they just have to manage their ER while they're in it. They manage shifts because of features more-or-less specific to their specialty. A handful of other specialties share those features, and manage to do the same. But not most.
Hell, I chose to pursue my specialty specifically because it lacks emergencies. I never wanted to wake up in the middle of the night post-residency; no one pays you enough for those hours (you're generally not paid for those hours.)
When he emerged two hours later, clinging to his IV pole, we were grateful for the manpower.
That's not counting all of our "unofficial hours". You officially work, whatever, 9-6. You're packed with patients for those hours, though, with almost no time to chart, so you go home and chart ... and on a daily basis at home, you're catching texts from colleagues for informal consults and requests to see patients the next day. Your "off" hours aren't off - and if you have to take call, and end up driving back to the hospital...
EM "handles it better" (a phrase I'm loathe to use) because they have legit shift work, with no continuity. No one calls them for a consult; they're not responsible for anyone after they leave because all their patients are short-stay, they don't have to see "every patient on X roster," they just have to manage their ER while they're in it. They manage shifts because of features more-or-less specific to their specialty. A handful of other specialties share those features, and manage to do the same. But not most.
Hell, I chose to pursue my specialty specifically because it lacks emergencies. I never wanted to wake up in the middle of the night post-residency; no one pays you enough for those hours (you're generally not paid for those hours.)
Yeah, on the whole I'd say doctor's WLB is a lot worse, especially considering what I've heard about residencies. And I think a developer can find a job with better WLB much easier than a doctor.
I just think that tech, especially startups, don't handle overtime well. A service might not need to have high availability, and if it does there a ways to manage operations well. Leadership focusing on quality, so that production issues are minimized is good. Explicit on-call schedules can provide benefits if it's not a ton of work, being on-call is definitely a negative. But knowing that you don't need to be available at all is better than not having an on-call schedule. Shift work, with the focus on explicitly dividing up the schedule between employees can provide that benefit.
I haven't worked at Google, but the Google SRE book mentions a lot of things I like. Like giving the option for cash compensation for overtime, requiring postmortems for on-call incidents, capping the percentage of ops work, and having multi-site teams to minimize night shifts all sound like great ideas.
I think there are a lot of situations where service reliability could be improved while making things easier on sysadmins and developers.
I just think that tech, especially startups, don't handle overtime well. A service might not need to have high availability, and if it does there a ways to manage operations well. Leadership focusing on quality, so that production issues are minimized is good. Explicit on-call schedules can provide benefits if it's not a ton of work, being on-call is definitely a negative. But knowing that you don't need to be available at all is better than not having an on-call schedule. Shift work, with the focus on explicitly dividing up the schedule between employees can provide that benefit.
I haven't worked at Google, but the Google SRE book mentions a lot of things I like. Like giving the option for cash compensation for overtime, requiring postmortems for on-call incidents, capping the percentage of ops work, and having multi-site teams to minimize night shifts all sound like great ideas.
I think there are a lot of situations where service reliability could be improved while making things easier on sysadmins and developers.
there's a real open question regarding app downtime. I know being 'on call' is a common occurrence in a number of tech positions, but if the thing really 'needs' to be responsive and up 24 hours VA day 7 days a week and something can explode and take it down, then one should probably look at what other sectors with that kind of need do and have rotating shift/ rosters...
course, that would probably result in lower wages for those shift
(that being said, in my country, doctors working hours in the likes of hospitals are notoriously unsafe/long/unreasonable/unethical as well, so your mileage may vary)
course, that would probably result in lower wages for those shift
(that being said, in my country, doctors working hours in the likes of hospitals are notoriously unsafe/long/unreasonable/unethical as well, so your mileage may vary)
> In a place I worked, if someone left at 5:30 pm, the CTO used to joke "half day today?", even though the person came in at 9 am.
In both the places I've worked, it's a common joke anyone says when somebody leaves. everybody laughs and nobody gets offended. It doesn't mean anything.
In both the places I've worked, it's a common joke anyone says when somebody leaves. everybody laughs and nobody gets offended. It doesn't mean anything.
As far as I can tell, jokes are an important method of communication. There are times where they are light-hearted, or just part of the culture, but there are other times (where there is, say, one person in a position of authority, making the same joke repeatedly) where it is meant to call out a behaviour and implicitly shame it.
It's like if you're on the bus and someone's sitting really close. Some people would say "Excuse me, you're too close", but others would jokingly say "Little close, aren't you?", but the meaning is the same - Move.
It's like if you're on the bus and someone's sitting really close. Some people would say "Excuse me, you're too close", but others would jokingly say "Little close, aren't you?", but the meaning is the same - Move.
Joking that a reasonable leaving hour == too early isn't a good joke. It plants the idea that the reasonable hour maybe isn't reasonable in other peoples' minds.
That kind of thing only works as a joke when it's about an obviously late hour (i.e. well past the norms of the company). If someone stays until 9pm to put out some fire and then people joke about working a half day, its obvious that there's no underlying meaning to that, since the leaving hour is well past the established norms
That kind of thing only works as a joke when it's about an obviously late hour (i.e. well past the norms of the company). If someone stays until 9pm to put out some fire and then people joke about working a half day, its obvious that there's no underlying meaning to that, since the leaving hour is well past the established norms
That’s a very toxic attitude to have, especially as a manager. You don’t know that “nobody gets offended”. All you know is that “no one chose to express their discomfort”, a very different thing.
It's pretty easy to make sure nobody gets offended - you communicate (in a serious setting) that you value results over hours worked and you demonstrate this in practice. At that point irony and sarcasm is safe territory (appropriate or tasteful is another matter). Being afraid to joke about this because it could be missunderstood tells me you are failing at that which is far more important than worrying about what are potential interpretations of your jokes.
I would say this applies to any value.
I would say this applies to any value.
It’s not being afraid to joke, it’s making sure that employees do not feel like they are receiving mixed signals (“he says results are what matters but he’s always joking about me leaving early when I’m leaving at a reasonable hour and getting my work done?”). This is particularly important when considering employees who might not have English as their first language, or come from a culture where joking is perceived differently.
interesting, in that from my perspective it's a joke that only works if you're reinforcing a cultural attitude that they're breaking a norm. I.e. it wouldn't exist or even thought to be said unless there was an inherent expectation/value in working long hours.
Also, I'd probably worry that such frequent jokes walk a very fine line towards passive aggressive behavior (again, such jokes just won't exist where there is no expectation).
obviously I don't know your workplace, so there's a good possibility no one gets offended, but just pointing out there's different interpretations of such actions, and just because no one's saying anything doesn't mean it's not happening...
(
Also, I'd probably worry that such frequent jokes walk a very fine line towards passive aggressive behavior (again, such jokes just won't exist where there is no expectation).
obviously I don't know your workplace, so there's a good possibility no one gets offended, but just pointing out there's different interpretations of such actions, and just because no one's saying anything doesn't mean it's not happening...
(
it is toxic though, repear a (lie) joke enough time and becomes the truth
I once heard it said that employee overtime was like morphine for employers, because it masks the pain of organizational dysfunction. It's important to let your employer feel that pain so that they can become aware of what is wrong and fix it.
"I once heard it said that employee overtime was like morphine for employers, because it masks the pain of organizational dysfunction. It's important to let your employer feel that pain so that they can become aware of what is wrong and fix it.
"
One of my jobs in Germany had a strict 35 hour week. No overtime allowed unless paid 2x and even that was very difficult to do. Management was definitely much more decisive and we worked most of the 35 hours. With my current employer I am pretty sure I am working less productive hours but I am in the office more. Meetings, meetings, conference calls, more meetings and no clear decisions.
One of my jobs in Germany had a strict 35 hour week. No overtime allowed unless paid 2x and even that was very difficult to do. Management was definitely much more decisive and we worked most of the 35 hours. With my current employer I am pretty sure I am working less productive hours but I am in the office more. Meetings, meetings, conference calls, more meetings and no clear decisions.
Yes, many studies have shown that productivity is highest in Europe for this reason. America is in the middle, and Japanese productivity is low.
It's important to let your employer feel that pain
Unless you're hourly.
Unless you're hourly.
Give it enough time and your hourly wages will amortize to cover this - what should now be a 75/hr tier will have remained at 60/hr because everyone gets paid that, working overtime, to get some job done that probably doesn't need overtime to get done.
Saw this in Oil and Gas industry among Engineers and Designers (the pipeline/wiring kind, not the UX kind), not sure if it's true for other industries though. Haven't worked contract in software yet to see for myself.
Saw this in Oil and Gas industry among Engineers and Designers (the pipeline/wiring kind, not the UX kind), not sure if it's true for other industries though. Haven't worked contract in software yet to see for myself.
More hourly people need to realize this, that what seems as a marginal benefit of time and a half pay from constant overtime hours eventually just gets priced in as lower base wages. I think a source is thinking too much about gross pay vs effective hourly compensation. It doesn't "feel right" to switch jobs and take an effective pay cut, even if your effective hourly compensation in terms of benefits and wages is higher.
Oh very traditional in heavy engineering, I know one industrial relations expert who told me, when a big turbine was due for delivery suddenly the tools and screwdrivers would get suddenly heavy and every one got very tired.
Until of course the brown envelopes came out then as he said even the tea boy got a grand - this is mid 70's btw.
Until of course the brown envelopes came out then as he said even the tea boy got a grand - this is mid 70's btw.
And you move into higher tax brackets so take home a smaller fraction.
I'm starting to see it as a loss, the additional time I may put in as overtime is subtracted from time I have for side projects and learning that is far more important to my career (as well as metal / physical health).
I'm starting to see it as a loss, the additional time I may put in as overtime is subtracted from time I have for side projects and learning that is far more important to my career (as well as metal / physical health).
Well the idea of time and a half is that overtime should be painful to the employer. It probably isn't though or at least is budgeted for.
When overtime starts getting budgeted the employer doesn't care so much. Usually they've done the math on if hiring people (with benefits, etc) is better than spreading the hours out as overtime.
Then they feel the pain through your overtime pay.
An interesting take on this in Spain recently was that unpaid overtime was effectively "robbing from state taxes", because those extra hours should have been paid and so contribute to the government coffers. This resulted in a law (mostly defanged, self reports and no real punishment) that companies must track the time employees spend at work.
Why is "unpaid overtime is robbing from state taxes" a better argument than "unpaid overtime is robbing from workers"?
A few possible reasons come to mind.
The government may not have standing to sue on the worker's behalf.
The agency that prosecutes tax fraud may be larger and better funded than the agency that protects workers.
One tax evasion charge may combine the cases of thousands of affected workers into one case, where the individual cases are too small and time consuming to pursue.
The penalties for tax evasion may be more severe than the penalties for wage theft.
The government may not have standing to sue on the worker's behalf.
The agency that prosecutes tax fraud may be larger and better funded than the agency that protects workers.
One tax evasion charge may combine the cases of thousands of affected workers into one case, where the individual cases are too small and time consuming to pursue.
The penalties for tax evasion may be more severe than the penalties for wage theft.
To get someone (the government in this case) to care (change rules) it sometimes helps to frame a problem in a way that affects them. Maybe?
That's sad that a government wouldn't see its citizens being robbed as a problem that affects them, as governments are directly responsible for the regulatory environment in which we all do business.
If people allow themselves to be robbed, and millions do everyday, there is nothing the government can do about it, just as if they are robbed by a mugger. If people aren't reporting it, then nothing will change.
In US, government is more run like a business, could we collect more revenue? yes? it's a good idea!!!
To be fair to the US, it is the same in many other countries too.
Sounds a bit like an old ‘legal fiction’ in England - person A claimed that they were unable to pay their taxes because person B owed them money so sued them in the Court of Exchequer (which was not supposed to hear disputes between two subjects but could hear disputes between people who owed the Crown money and the Crown). As the court was a bit more efficient at the time than some of the alternatives and everyone wanted a speedy resolution to the dispute, no one challenged the (non-existent) debt to the Crown.
Because then the government actually pays attention.
Feels less selfish, and also undermines any kind of “look at XX, heroically giving his time for the success of the company” retort
Because the government (we call it "The State" here) can make a law to fuck everyone while we workers are powerless.
[deleted]
That argument doesn’t really make sense.
1) paid time is taxed
2) unpaid overtime is not taxed
3) untaxed work effectively evades taxes
4) unpaid overtime is tax evasion.
which step don't you agree with?
which step don't you agree with?
1) Wages are taxed, not work. If there is no money paid there is no tax evasion.
2) Unpaid overtime is not really unpaid unless your employment agreement explicitly states that you are not supposed to work more than 40 hours. If you get paid $100k to work 50 hours, then you are getting paid $100k to work 50 hours, not $100k to work the first 40 and $0 to work the next 10. Your comp is payment all the hours you work, not just the first 40.
2) Unpaid overtime is not really unpaid unless your employment agreement explicitly states that you are not supposed to work more than 40 hours. If you get paid $100k to work 50 hours, then you are getting paid $100k to work 50 hours, not $100k to work the first 40 and $0 to work the next 10. Your comp is payment all the hours you work, not just the first 40.
At least in the US, not sure about the EU, but unless your profession is explicitly exempt salaried employees are still owed overtime. Unless a job explicitly states the number of hours an employee is to work it's assumed it's 40 hours.
Of course there are exceptions, such as programmers.
Of course there are exceptions, such as programmers.
[deleted]
I misread the comment.
There were J-Drama actually, ハケンの品格 ("The Pride of the Temp") about the contractor who is so brilliant that she gives conditions to the staffing company.
> The conditions are that her contract term is for 3 months only, working time is from 9am to 6pm on weekdays only and no extra work or work expected on holidays.
http://asianwiki.com/The_Pride_of_the_Temp
> The conditions are that her contract term is for 3 months only, working time is from 9am to 6pm on weekdays only and no extra work or work expected on holidays.
http://asianwiki.com/The_Pride_of_the_Temp
Anyone with expertise care to chime in regarding possible causes? I recently finished a WWII documentary and the first few installments of Hardcore History's look into Imperial Japan. The Japanese seem like an "intense" (for lack of a better word) culture, which seems like it can be a pro or a con depending on what that "intensity" is targeted towards.
I always like to say that Japan is basically a feudal militaristic society that just shifted their focus of effort from warfare to business. Japanese introductions and pleasantries are in some ways eerily similar with Marine Corps "customs & courtesies". There was a Youtube documentary I watched where they pointed out that most of the central bankers and other high-ranking economic staff, post-war, were still hardcore fascists. So Japan keeping the structure that had been imposed by centuries of rule under a warrior caste should be less surprising.
The documentary you're referring to is 'The Princes of Yen'.
Contrary to all the Western BS about "samurai caste" etc. (it's always some dim-witted "academically proven" stereotype with you folk), the Samurai completely lost their power during the Tokugawa period due to inflation.
Meiji broke this completely, and gave power to an oligarchy consisting of rich merchants/farmers (and some their samurai co-conspirators who helped with the restoring Meiji to power.). In fact, this transition was helped by the British, which might explain why Meiji was so anti-Asia to begin with - there was an incomplete purge of Buddhism and conscious playdown of Chinese culture.
Contrary to all the Western BS about "samurai caste" etc. (it's always some dim-witted "academically proven" stereotype with you folk), the Samurai completely lost their power during the Tokugawa period due to inflation.
Meiji broke this completely, and gave power to an oligarchy consisting of rich merchants/farmers (and some their samurai co-conspirators who helped with the restoring Meiji to power.). In fact, this transition was helped by the British, which might explain why Meiji was so anti-Asia to begin with - there was an incomplete purge of Buddhism and conscious playdown of Chinese culture.
A. Who is "you folk"?
B. Sure, the samurai lost their political power by the Meji period. That doesn't mean their social and cultural influence disappeared overnight, especially since the country spent decades more or less under the thumb of the Imperial Japanese Army....who saw themselves as carrying on the samurai legacy, well within living memory for some Japanese. In the 30's and 40's it permeated the school system, so generations of Japanese grew up with that same military discipline, inherited from the IJA, who inherited it from the samurai.
They sure as hell didn't get rigid selflessness and tolerance for suffering from rich merchants. Plus they still form up for morning PT sessions at corporate jobs! They just have the intensity dialed down to.....1/10. Do you ever see this in any culture that hasn't had a strong military tradition?
https://youtu.be/taHYsmLpWDY
Couldn't find a decent video of Marines doing company-level PT for comparison, but here's Army Basic Training at "Relaxin' Jackson" (everyone pokes fun at graduates of this base for producing the softest Soldiers): https://youtu.be/cIVWU8hyuI0
B. Sure, the samurai lost their political power by the Meji period. That doesn't mean their social and cultural influence disappeared overnight, especially since the country spent decades more or less under the thumb of the Imperial Japanese Army....who saw themselves as carrying on the samurai legacy, well within living memory for some Japanese. In the 30's and 40's it permeated the school system, so generations of Japanese grew up with that same military discipline, inherited from the IJA, who inherited it from the samurai.
They sure as hell didn't get rigid selflessness and tolerance for suffering from rich merchants. Plus they still form up for morning PT sessions at corporate jobs! They just have the intensity dialed down to.....1/10. Do you ever see this in any culture that hasn't had a strong military tradition?
https://youtu.be/taHYsmLpWDY
Couldn't find a decent video of Marines doing company-level PT for comparison, but here's Army Basic Training at "Relaxin' Jackson" (everyone pokes fun at graduates of this base for producing the softest Soldiers): https://youtu.be/cIVWU8hyuI0
Post WWII, Japan was in the position of "work like crazy so that we don't all starve". So their culture became "work like crazy". That position ended perhaps by 1970, but the culture survived.
There may also be other factors, but I think this is one.
There may also be other factors, but I think this is one.
Not a historian, but working together as a group and not letting the people around you down are values that are emphasized from childhood. Leaving work before the people around you makes it feel like you are the weakest link.
Also there is a lot of weight placed on seniority, so younger people have pressure to work harder to make up for what they lack in experience. While a little less common now, it used to be understood that you shouldn't leave work before your boss.
Also there is a lot of weight placed on seniority, so younger people have pressure to work harder to make up for what they lack in experience. While a little less common now, it used to be understood that you shouldn't leave work before your boss.
I listened to this podcast series too! So, so interesting, especially as an Asian American and understanding how that period of Japanese colonialism affected the rest of the region.
I'm not certain historical events are the right model. This trait of long working hours has appeared in countries with fairly diverse circumstances.
I suspect sometimes it's just a matter of a few large employers setting people's idea of what "normal" is.
I suspect sometimes it's just a matter of a few large employers setting people's idea of what "normal" is.
It’s like anywhere else. There are plenty of slackers and dumbasses. They just aren’t remarkable, so they’re not in our zeitgeist. But believe me, if you teach in Japan, you meet lots of people who are lazy.
When I was in Japan a few months ago, the TV channels were hyping up the show. One of the segments had the very well-respected lead actress (Yuriko Yoshitaka) going to OL (office lady) bars after work hour and had her talk to the OLs there.
All the OLs there immediately recognized her and showed her more respect than a what a typical Japanese celebrity would receive in similar situation. My guess was that the actress was older, and was known for her strong personality and work ethic, and the OLs respected her for it.
Anyway they started sharing their war stories and asked the actress for suggestions. It's quite an enlightening experience for me as I wasn't very familiar with Japanese OL culture. Some of the stories were startling.
All the OLs there immediately recognized her and showed her more respect than a what a typical Japanese celebrity would receive in similar situation. My guess was that the actress was older, and was known for her strong personality and work ethic, and the OLs respected her for it.
Anyway they started sharing their war stories and asked the actress for suggestions. It's quite an enlightening experience for me as I wasn't very familiar with Japanese OL culture. Some of the stories were startling.
Was the actual series linked anywhere in the article ?
I might have missed it, for anyone else looking for it: https://www.tbs.co.jp/watatei/
I might have missed it, for anyone else looking for it: https://www.tbs.co.jp/watatei/
In general, how do you link to a TV show? They don't have websites per se.
Actually they do have websites in Japan. And they don't remove it after - this is "The Pride of the Temp" website, created in 2007 http://www.ntv.co.jp/haken/
One question i am asking repeatedly is what is exactly the work they do for 5 extended hours? i have seen people barely work 4 out of 8 hours and being super productive!
Either almost literally nothing, or the work that should have been covered by hiring more staff. It’s either of those extremes and as far as I’ve seen (working in various Japanese offices for almost a decade now) rarely anything between those.
Some were mentioning it is more about sticking around until the boss leaves. Apparently it isn't so important that work is getting done, just the perception that you are working hard (actually working long.)
This. I don't have strict working hours and I don't expect my employee to really work for more than 4 hours a day.
As a fan of office-based dry comedies (The Office, Dreamland, W1A, etc), I'm curious if anyone has watched the show? If so, would you recommend it?
Finished the show (last episode aired two days ago).
It was as good as it could get I think. No stone were left unturned, they didn’t shy out from most themes (sexual harassment, moral harassment, generation gap, sub contracting, bribes, actual death by overwork, heroism etc).
The take on the subjects is honest and decent, they manage to push well thought arguments without making too much ennemies or pushing the ball too far. The ending is a very soft landing without ruffling too many feathers.
I hope some other series will fill the gap left open and have a more aggressive take, but this series was good enough I think.
It was as good as it could get I think. No stone were left unturned, they didn’t shy out from most themes (sexual harassment, moral harassment, generation gap, sub contracting, bribes, actual death by overwork, heroism etc).
The take on the subjects is honest and decent, they manage to push well thought arguments without making too much ennemies or pushing the ball too far. The ending is a very soft landing without ruffling too many feathers.
I hope some other series will fill the gap left open and have a more aggressive take, but this series was good enough I think.
Still at the first episode, it seems decent enough. At least it hits some critical points very straight on, even if delivery is a bit bland.
I would compare it to Haken no Hinkaku, in a more modern and less cliche company setting.
I would compare it to Haken no Hinkaku, in a more modern and less cliche company setting.
I remember a dialogue from The Cleveland show (yeah, that spin off which lasted few seasons" )
Cleveland as Japanese: " I am going to work 12 hours overtime, on top of the 10 hour daily work so that i can bring honor to my family"
Laughed really hard wondering who works like that, but guess the joke is on me :(
Cleveland as Japanese: " I am going to work 12 hours overtime, on top of the 10 hour daily work so that i can bring honor to my family"
Laughed really hard wondering who works like that, but guess the joke is on me :(
I do not understand why in this article it is permitted to only be mentioned in passing that the creators of the TV show are completely and fundamentally changing the core message of the novel it is based upon. In the novel, the characters decision to overwork ruins her life. In the TV show, they're going to have it do the opposite. So while they toy with the idea of leaving on time, they're just going to feed more into the social disease of overwork.
I realize that the change from a manufacturing-oriented economy to a knowledge-work-oriented economy is going to take decades, and there are going to be a lot of bumps along the way and likely a good bit of bloodshed, but it doesn't make it any more pleasant to watch.
I realize that the change from a manufacturing-oriented economy to a knowledge-work-oriented economy is going to take decades, and there are going to be a lot of bumps along the way and likely a good bit of bloodshed, but it doesn't make it any more pleasant to watch.
Death by overtime "karoshi" is not unique to Japan but is also an issue in other Asian countries [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi
>In addition to cultural attitudes about the value of hard work, she said, some employers reduce costs by relying on overtime, and employees work the longer hours for the extra pay and to please the boss — promotions often depend more on time spent at a desk than actual productivity.
The US game industry - except you don't get overtime pay (maybe pizza).
The US game industry - except you don't get overtime pay (maybe pizza).
[deleted]
[deleted]
> We have our own culturally ingrained things in America that I'd like to change as well, and that are changing, but so slowly. How do you implement change?
Out of curiosity, what would you like to change in the US?
Out of curiosity, what would you like to change in the US?
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20235397.
Systemic racism and sexism (bigotry in general, and America to this day is overflowing with it - for Muslims, LGBT, Hispanics, Africans, Chinese, etc..), historical revisionism / fantasy, American exceptionalism, ideological imperialism, cults around jobs and work, corporate personification, the pervasive and toxic "I got mine, screw you" mindset, idolization of the rich, anti-intellectualism, anti-science, and anti-expertise cultures.
Nice gish gallop.
Those aren’t culturally ingrained in the US on any wide scale. It’s not the expectation to be racist to move up in the corporate ladder in the US. We’re talking about common culture across the majority of the group.
Not even American exceptionalism is common in workplaces (e.g. see every big tech company). About the only thing that is common is that people think the country is fucked up because of “the other political party”.
Those aren’t culturally ingrained in the US on any wide scale. It’s not the expectation to be racist to move up in the corporate ladder in the US. We’re talking about common culture across the majority of the group.
Not even American exceptionalism is common in workplaces (e.g. see every big tech company). About the only thing that is common is that people think the country is fucked up because of “the other political party”.
You made connections between things and the workplace that the parent did not imply to my eye.
It was an array and you started making a dict, assuming whatever connections you wanted.
See Americans are trained to not be so gaudy but quietly believe in these things. I see it all the time when I actually push people to share their political views. Democrats and liberal minded folks totally ok with bombing the Middle East and making life cheaper and easier for America.
So I guess it’s something of a ymmv, depending on whether you actively dig or just idly observe.
I think what the internet has shown is we all have wildly varying ideas of what being free means at an individual scale but at a macro social like scale pretty much just follow the corporate drum beat.
It was an array and you started making a dict, assuming whatever connections you wanted.
See Americans are trained to not be so gaudy but quietly believe in these things. I see it all the time when I actually push people to share their political views. Democrats and liberal minded folks totally ok with bombing the Middle East and making life cheaper and easier for America.
So I guess it’s something of a ymmv, depending on whether you actively dig or just idly observe.
I think what the internet has shown is we all have wildly varying ideas of what being free means at an individual scale but at a macro social like scale pretty much just follow the corporate drum beat.
Push for universal services.
IMO that’s the concrete way to begin to normalize away from the bulk of the things you describe.
When we show the aristocracy we can peacefully organize around our own interests, that will have them properly concerned.
IMO that’s the concrete way to begin to normalize away from the bulk of the things you describe.
When we show the aristocracy we can peacefully organize around our own interests, that will have them properly concerned.
Not sure why you are being down voted, this is a fantastic list of things this country desperately needs to improve upon.
Because it’s an unfounded list of complaints. Other than American exceptionalism you could easily argue that all countries have sub cultures with those exact same problems.
Does the problem existing in other places make it an unfounded one?
If my house is burning down it's not made acceptable by my neighbor's house also burning down.
If my house is burning down it's not made acceptable by my neighbor's house also burning down.
It makes it a likely human-cultural universal problem that can't be fixed at the level of national politics (but rather requires something like transhuman genetic engineering to change the way our minds work, or something.) Better to focus on the problems that we have at least one constructive proof of being something other than an irreducible part of the "human 1.0" experience.
Bullshit. A huge chunk of the world used to not let people vote on their governance, or basically gave no rights to women. Turns out that declaring war against England solved part of that, and other actions have made huge headway around the world. The civil rights act had huge effects, despite it being a big problem in many other places.
"A huge chunk of the world" and "literally every human being throughout history" are very different things. Like I said, a problem is potentially solvable politically if you have at least one constructive proof of people not doing that. If you don't, though, then it's likely one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_universal.
If, for some reason, you thought that—to use a random example from the list—people having names was a bad thing, would you try to use politics to get people to stop naming their children? No; that'd be insane. People aren't going to give up doing that as long as they're still human beings in any sense we recognize. Even if you outlaw it, they'll still do it; it'll just be a secret.
Same goes for many good things, but also for many bad things. You'll never be able to erase the human concept of e.g. people having things that are more "theirs" than someone else's (even in a communist totalitarian regime) or sexual jealousy (even if there's a central educational authority raising everyone polyamorous), or arbitrary etiquette fads (even in the context of a concrete replacement for them, like a military code of conduct) or people valuing kin over strangers (even if Effective Altruism propaganda were to be broadcast from loudspeakers on every corner.) You can't make a world without these things in them, without making a world without humans as we know them in them.
There are problems amenable to politics. Maybe most problems. But some problems just... aren't. (These problematic aspects of humanity may be amenable to other solutions—potentially many! It's just that a political solution requires the majority of people to want it; and, by the fact that these are universals, the majority of humans will never want them gone.)
If, for some reason, you thought that—to use a random example from the list—people having names was a bad thing, would you try to use politics to get people to stop naming their children? No; that'd be insane. People aren't going to give up doing that as long as they're still human beings in any sense we recognize. Even if you outlaw it, they'll still do it; it'll just be a secret.
Same goes for many good things, but also for many bad things. You'll never be able to erase the human concept of e.g. people having things that are more "theirs" than someone else's (even in a communist totalitarian regime) or sexual jealousy (even if there's a central educational authority raising everyone polyamorous), or arbitrary etiquette fads (even in the context of a concrete replacement for them, like a military code of conduct) or people valuing kin over strangers (even if Effective Altruism propaganda were to be broadcast from loudspeakers on every corner.) You can't make a world without these things in them, without making a world without humans as we know them in them.
There are problems amenable to politics. Maybe most problems. But some problems just... aren't. (These problematic aspects of humanity may be amenable to other solutions—potentially many! It's just that a political solution requires the majority of people to want it; and, by the fact that these are universals, the majority of humans will never want them gone.)
Yes, cultural universals exist, but in the interest of staying on topic, you'll notice a distinct difference between e.g. people having names, and things on zanny's list or cultures that work overtime too much.
I don't know, both bigotry and "[culture] exceptionalism" map pretty well to the cultural universals of "Collective identities" + "Binary cognitive distinctions".
Which is, again, why I think zanny was being downvoted: wishing people could get over wanting to work overtime, and wishing human brains would stop categorizing things and then assigning the categories themselves moral worth, are very different kinds of wish, that don't really feel like they should be in the same kind of list. The latter kind of thing can't be described with "a problem with American culture", because that's not the level it exists at.
Which is, again, why I think zanny was being downvoted: wishing people could get over wanting to work overtime, and wishing human brains would stop categorizing things and then assigning the categories themselves moral worth, are very different kinds of wish, that don't really feel like they should be in the same kind of list. The latter kind of thing can't be described with "a problem with American culture", because that's not the level it exists at.
Sure "otherness" is universal, but in a world where e.g. people of Irish descent used to be considered "other" by "normal" white people, I think there's empirical evidence we can still make progress.
I feel like that doesn't stop them from being problems that we hope we can fix someday.
The attitude towards taking time off, frankly. I don’t mind busting my ass at work, it’s fun, but the looks you get when you take more than a week or two of vacation at a time :-/
Where I work (Denmark); it's more the looks you get if you only take one or two weeks off or if you constantly stay in the office past 7hrs.
Over working is not healthy and you are not productive anyway. Work (at most) the 37.5hrs/week (maybe 40 if there's a crunch) you are paid for and take your 6 weeks of yearly vacation that you are entitled to (plus holidays) - is what I'd recommend and what my manager pushes. I think that's a good thing.
Over working is not healthy and you are not productive anyway. Work (at most) the 37.5hrs/week (maybe 40 if there's a crunch) you are paid for and take your 6 weeks of yearly vacation that you are entitled to (plus holidays) - is what I'd recommend and what my manager pushes. I think that's a good thing.
6 weeks of yearly vacation! you guys have it good lol
It's pretty normal in Europe. Not necessarily by law, but most French, Germans, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish have 6 weeks. In most places the minimum is 4 or 5 weeks, but 6 weeks is the norm.
Plus holidays. If it's similar to Norway (we get "only" five weeks, and an extra week past... 60 years?) - there's about a week of holidays (Christmas day, Easter , New years day etc) that don't count towards the total (we have 10 of those in Norway - but as some move, and/or fall on days that are typically off for office workers, like Saturday, they don't amount to 10 work days off. Somewhat depending on contract and type of work).
Kluny(7)
In many places I worked in the US, it is somewhat of a badge of honor to spend long hours at work (how many of those are actually productive, is a different story). And these aren't even startups.
This can't continue - an entire generation of people have been brainwashed that hard work = good, costs be damned. It has to change.
IMHO, the only reasons to work long hours are - real emergencies (like the kind doctors and cops deal with, not the kind when some photo sharing app goes down for 15 mins), or you're working on your own business. It is ridiculous to work 70 hours a week bringing someone else's dreams to life, especially while getting paid for only 40 out of that 70. This is even more annoying when the said job adds no value or negative value to society.