Volkswagen unveils the ID.3, its first affordable long-range electric car(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Volkswagen unveils the ID.3, its first affordable long-range electric car
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/9/20857217/volkswagen-vw-id3-electric-price-specs-mile-range-frankfurt-motor-show-2019
179 comments
> huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist
Maybe they want to make buyers hesitate on buying a Tesla Model 3 right now and wait until next year.
If you assume cars will sooner or later go electric, automakers would feel they need to capture part of that market to survive. The article says VW is making a "multibillion-dollar push", so it seems likely that's their strategy.
So if all they get out of these ads is to put people into a holding pattern until 2020 to decide on VW or Tesla, that combats the threat of Tesla dominance, which in and of itself could be worth what VW spends on ads.
Maybe they want to make buyers hesitate on buying a Tesla Model 3 right now and wait until next year.
If you assume cars will sooner or later go electric, automakers would feel they need to capture part of that market to survive. The article says VW is making a "multibillion-dollar push", so it seems likely that's their strategy.
So if all they get out of these ads is to put people into a holding pattern until 2020 to decide on VW or Tesla, that combats the threat of Tesla dominance, which in and of itself could be worth what VW spends on ads.
The possible reason to start the campaign now is that a big chunk of the market in Europe is business lease. New vehicles are not ordered in the last quarter of the year, because the resell value will drop if the car is a year old in three months. The lead time for cars ordered by employees is a bit longer than for regular customers. By building the hype over a new affordable EV which in quite some countries come with tax brakes they probably hope people will wait for the car to come out in Q2 and not have another one delivered in Q1.
> New vehicles are not ordered in the last quarter of the year, because the resell value will drop if the car is a year old in three months.
Few companies seem to bother coordinating model years with calendar years. I agree about the lead time, however.
Few companies seem to bother coordinating model years with calendar years. I agree about the lead time, however.
That pretty much sounds like a Tesla 3 marketing campaign? :D
There was a looong wait for those to start shipping too.
There was a looong wait for those to start shipping too.
[deleted]
>huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist
Audi did the same thing. I think they do it for the green image, not sales.
Audi did the same thing. I think they do it for the green image, not sales.
If you want an EV now, buy a Tesla/Leaf/Zoe. That's all I'm hearing from VW.
I'm thrilled with my Focus EV (cause Model3 wasn't available when I bought it). I have a basket of features I'd like on my next EV that I don't have now, but it's way better than waiting for the "best" to show up.
I'm thrilled with my Focus EV (cause Model3 wasn't available when I bought it). I have a basket of features I'd like on my next EV that I don't have now, but it's way better than waiting for the "best" to show up.
Maybe someone wants to buy an EV now but they have no problem waiting for a year.
"huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist"
Perhaps they are trying to gauge the likely success of the car before some final production decisions are made.
You do have to wonder how Tesla is going to survive the first surge of practical mass-market electric cars. They definitely are riding some sort of tiger while trying to build out marketshare, technology, infrastructure.
My money is on Toyota but would be thrilled to be wrong.
Perhaps they are trying to gauge the likely success of the car before some final production decisions are made.
You do have to wonder how Tesla is going to survive the first surge of practical mass-market electric cars. They definitely are riding some sort of tiger while trying to build out marketshare, technology, infrastructure.
My money is on Toyota but would be thrilled to be wrong.
Tesla will be fine, for several reasons:
1. They're way ahead of everyone else in terms of energy efficiency. Compare a Model S or X to the Jaguar iPace or Audi e-tron - the Tesla gets 30-50% more range out of the same size battery. That's a big gap.
2. Super chargers - other manufacturers have to rely on really spotty networks of third-party charging stations that are unreliable, and add friction for their customers (have to have the right card and the right connector, etc.). Teslas super chargers are in all the right places, are stupid easy to use, and always work.
3. Tesla actually wants to sell EVs. The other manufacturers are hamstrung with their legacy product groups. They're just dipping their toes in the water trying to figure out how to make the transition without 'Osborning' themselves, or doing the minimum to satisfy California regulations. Tesla is all-in and innovating at a much faster pace.
1. They're way ahead of everyone else in terms of energy efficiency. Compare a Model S or X to the Jaguar iPace or Audi e-tron - the Tesla gets 30-50% more range out of the same size battery. That's a big gap.
2. Super chargers - other manufacturers have to rely on really spotty networks of third-party charging stations that are unreliable, and add friction for their customers (have to have the right card and the right connector, etc.). Teslas super chargers are in all the right places, are stupid easy to use, and always work.
3. Tesla actually wants to sell EVs. The other manufacturers are hamstrung with their legacy product groups. They're just dipping their toes in the water trying to figure out how to make the transition without 'Osborning' themselves, or doing the minimum to satisfy California regulations. Tesla is all-in and innovating at a much faster pace.
> Tesla will be fine, for several reasons
Tesla will be fine as a niche manufacturer. Jaguar's been around for a long time and they've always been a low volume manufacturer. Tesla can be the same.
> 1. They're way ahead of everyone else in terms of energy efficiency.
The Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro EV, and the Kia Soul EV all achieve good range at a lower price point than Tesla offers.
> 2. Super chargers - other manufacturers have to rely on really spotty networks of third-party charging stations that are unreliable
Ionity in Europe is a joint venture between many manufacturers. Hyundai just recently joined: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-ionity-electr...
Electrify America, EVgo, and ChargePoint now have roaming agreements which simplify charging for their users and makes the separate CCS networks act more like one large CCS network: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch...
Mercedes in Europe has agreements with the European charging networks to allow all charging billing to be done through the owner's Mercedes Me account.
At this point it would be much better if Tesla switched their chargers and cars to CCS instead of persisting with a proprietary plug. If Tesla is interested in promoting EV usage (which they claim is their mission) then they will also allow all EVs to charge at their chargers, just like Teslas can charge at CCS chargers today.
> 3. Tesla actually wants to sell EVs.
Volkswagen has invested more money into EVs than anyone: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-insig...
Tesla will be fine as a niche manufacturer. Jaguar's been around for a long time and they've always been a low volume manufacturer. Tesla can be the same.
> 1. They're way ahead of everyone else in terms of energy efficiency.
The Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro EV, and the Kia Soul EV all achieve good range at a lower price point than Tesla offers.
> 2. Super chargers - other manufacturers have to rely on really spotty networks of third-party charging stations that are unreliable
Ionity in Europe is a joint venture between many manufacturers. Hyundai just recently joined: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-ionity-electr...
Electrify America, EVgo, and ChargePoint now have roaming agreements which simplify charging for their users and makes the separate CCS networks act more like one large CCS network: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/evgo-electrify-america-ch...
Mercedes in Europe has agreements with the European charging networks to allow all charging billing to be done through the owner's Mercedes Me account.
At this point it would be much better if Tesla switched their chargers and cars to CCS instead of persisting with a proprietary plug. If Tesla is interested in promoting EV usage (which they claim is their mission) then they will also allow all EVs to charge at their chargers, just like Teslas can charge at CCS chargers today.
> 3. Tesla actually wants to sell EVs.
Volkswagen has invested more money into EVs than anyone: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-insig...
Really? The gap isn’t that much, about $2200 looking at a before subsidy price. And the interior of the korean EVS are pretty cheap compared to the model 3, so if tesla wanted to they could make a tesla that uses cheap materials and doesn’t ship with special sensors. Call it the model 1.
What holds me back is more a unknown / bad record of reliability with tesla and a lack of charging infrastructure in apartments for me.
What holds me back is more a unknown / bad record of reliability with tesla and a lack of charging infrastructure in apartments for me.
> so if tesla wanted to they could make a tesla that uses cheap materials and doesn’t ship with special sensors. Call it the model 1.
Could they? So why don't they? The 35k Model 3 didn't go too well. Why will this Model 1 do better for Tesla?
It's difficult to target multiple segments simultaneously. You need the scale of a company like Volkswagen to do it successfully. Tesla is headed for a decision point on the kind of car company they want to be. They'll probably choose to stay low volume:
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29960/teslas-hero-cycle-leads-...
Could they? So why don't they? The 35k Model 3 didn't go too well. Why will this Model 1 do better for Tesla?
It's difficult to target multiple segments simultaneously. You need the scale of a company like Volkswagen to do it successfully. Tesla is headed for a decision point on the kind of car company they want to be. They'll probably choose to stay low volume:
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29960/teslas-hero-cycle-leads-...
The reason why is because they were not targeting creating a low end bog standard plastic cheap car that the kona represents for the model 3. The cabin differences would have to be too big to deliver it as a trim.
Technologically I would see the model 1 being mostly the same platform as the model 3 with a cabin expressly designed for cheapness everywhere. So standard handles, standard ac, a 2 din stereo, everything plastic, only mirrors and cloth and no power seats. Kind of like the iphone xr with aluminum and an LCD. Make a platform variation is not that difficult.
That would make it bridge the gap and probably beat the kona price wise
Technologically I would see the model 1 being mostly the same platform as the model 3 with a cabin expressly designed for cheapness everywhere. So standard handles, standard ac, a 2 din stereo, everything plastic, only mirrors and cloth and no power seats. Kind of like the iphone xr with aluminum and an LCD. Make a platform variation is not that difficult.
That would make it bridge the gap and probably beat the kona price wise
> The cabin differences would have to be too big to deliver it as a trim.
So it's too difficult for Tesla to deliver. You agree with me: Hyundai's got Tesla beat on range at the price point.
> That would make it bridge the gap and probably beat the kona price wise
"Probably" is not a practical reality. The car you're talking about doesn't exist. The Kona EV, the Niro EV, and the Soul EV do exist. Hyundai is ahead here.
So it's too difficult for Tesla to deliver. You agree with me: Hyundai's got Tesla beat on range at the price point.
> That would make it bridge the gap and probably beat the kona price wise
"Probably" is not a practical reality. The car you're talking about doesn't exist. The Kona EV, the Niro EV, and the Soul EV do exist. Hyundai is ahead here.
Tesla is first to market on a lot of fronts and has the huge first-mover advantage, but you're right, when the competition gets real the easy wins will be over.
It has been said -- many times -- that the actual major advantage of Tesla cars is that they get better over time by virtue of their software update process. While many many of the big players (VW, Toyota, Honda, etc.) are going to match specs when it comes to battery range and whatnot, I haven't seen any indications that any of them intend to follow suit with the software.
My 2 year old Toyota already feels like it is locked in the stone age when it comes to the software and features.
It has been said -- many times -- that the actual major advantage of Tesla cars is that they get better over time by virtue of their software update process. While many many of the big players (VW, Toyota, Honda, etc.) are going to match specs when it comes to battery range and whatnot, I haven't seen any indications that any of them intend to follow suit with the software.
My 2 year old Toyota already feels like it is locked in the stone age when it comes to the software and features.
> While many many of the big players (VW, Toyota, Honda, etc.) are going to match specs when it comes to battery range and whatnot, I haven't seen any indications that any of them intend to follow suit with the software.
I'm hoping for the opposite, a return to basics, reliability and separation of concerns, not 3 billion lines of code running every single part of the car with a transistor - sure electric engines need some fundamental low level software and computer, and you can argue it's more fundamental to the engine than modern ICE computers.. but the whole infotainment center hub network bullshit, I'd really rather not have it all tied together, give me the machine, and independently some electrics like windows, mirrors, radio... if there must be a media center, at least make it separate from the computer that makes the car operate.
... and if you hadn't guessed, i'm obviously not an autopilot/selfdriving proponent so I don't care about that argument for integration.
I'm hoping for the opposite, a return to basics, reliability and separation of concerns, not 3 billion lines of code running every single part of the car with a transistor - sure electric engines need some fundamental low level software and computer, and you can argue it's more fundamental to the engine than modern ICE computers.. but the whole infotainment center hub network bullshit, I'd really rather not have it all tied together, give me the machine, and independently some electrics like windows, mirrors, radio... if there must be a media center, at least make it separate from the computer that makes the car operate.
... and if you hadn't guessed, i'm obviously not an autopilot/selfdriving proponent so I don't care about that argument for integration.
I’m hoping for twisty knobs and flicky switches
They will come.
In a the world of music equipment (synths in particular), it went like this:
--70s: twisty knobs and flicky switches.
--80s: We got CPU's now! Forget knobs, we got button arrays now.
--90s: We got LCDs now! Forget buttons, here's one rotary control and menus on menus.
--00s: If you pay us a lot, your menus will be on a touchscreen! Neat? No?
.....No?
:(
--10's: twisty knobs and flicky switches.
Walk into Guitar Center synth section, it's all about spaceship-kind of controls (one physical component for one parameter, and tons of blinkenlights).
It turned out (suprise!) that all those menu-driven controls are cheaper and easier to make, but were not what the users needed nor enjoyed.
These days, it's all about the analog equipment having digital control with a physical, tactile user interface (and no menus except for some niche parameters).
It really looks like cars are following the same path.
In a the world of music equipment (synths in particular), it went like this:
--70s: twisty knobs and flicky switches.
--80s: We got CPU's now! Forget knobs, we got button arrays now.
--90s: We got LCDs now! Forget buttons, here's one rotary control and menus on menus.
--00s: If you pay us a lot, your menus will be on a touchscreen! Neat? No?
.....No?
:(
--10's: twisty knobs and flicky switches.
Walk into Guitar Center synth section, it's all about spaceship-kind of controls (one physical component for one parameter, and tons of blinkenlights).
It turned out (suprise!) that all those menu-driven controls are cheaper and easier to make, but were not what the users needed nor enjoyed.
These days, it's all about the analog equipment having digital control with a physical, tactile user interface (and no menus except for some niche parameters).
It really looks like cars are following the same path.
If cars are to follow synthesizers, the next step is a Eurorack-style modular dashboard where you can fit instruments and controls from a wide variety of vendors that adhere to some basic standards and interact mostly via analog voltages.
Re-patching your dash while you're driving is probably taking the metaphor a bit too far, though.
Re-patching your dash while you're driving is probably taking the metaphor a bit too far, though.
This sounds awfully lot like the car stereos from the 90 that you can change with aftermarket ones, and you can remove the front part so nobody steals it from you.
Let’s hope Mazda blazes a popular trail[0].
[0] https://thenewswheel.com/mazda-eliminates-touch-screens/
[0] https://thenewswheel.com/mazda-eliminates-touch-screens/
I would pay for my car to NEVER update without my express approval. That is the definition of "my" - I get to decide how and when it changes. In fact, i think i will do just that. I might pick up one of these ID cars and thus vote with my wallet.
I am no EV fanboy, but this one looks like a practical second car fit for simple short-range missions
I am no EV fanboy, but this one looks like a practical second car fit for simple short-range missions
Can’t you just remove the sim?
yes, or more directly pull the fuse. But as the other poster said, the updates are fantastic, you get useful new functionality and my 5 year car has huge numbers of useful things that weren't in the original car.
> I would pay for my car to NEVER update without my express approval.
In case you were wondering, you opt-in to the updates from Tesla and can totally disable all connectivity if you so choose.
Virtually no one does this, because the upgrades are extremely valuable to Tesla owners and make the car accelerate quicker, brake faster, safer (constantly improving things like AEB and lane departure warning), longer range, more comfortable (suspension upgrades), and better in many other ways from minor usability tweaks (position of the phone icon in the launcher) to major functional upgrades.
OTA updates are also the only responsible way to deliver autonomous functionality.
It’s a huge asset and differentiator for Tesla. That’s not to say it won’t have detractors. E.g. Some people prefer driving stick.
In case you were wondering, you opt-in to the updates from Tesla and can totally disable all connectivity if you so choose.
Virtually no one does this, because the upgrades are extremely valuable to Tesla owners and make the car accelerate quicker, brake faster, safer (constantly improving things like AEB and lane departure warning), longer range, more comfortable (suspension upgrades), and better in many other ways from minor usability tweaks (position of the phone icon in the launcher) to major functional upgrades.
OTA updates are also the only responsible way to deliver autonomous functionality.
It’s a huge asset and differentiator for Tesla. That’s not to say it won’t have detractors. E.g. Some people prefer driving stick.
> I haven't seen any indications that any of them intend to follow suit with the software.
Indications:
- Some advertising of the UI and the augmented reality displays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E
- Platform plans: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09/volkswagen-audi-porsche...
- Associations: https://www.automotivelinux.org/announcements/2019/04/08/vol...
Indications:
- Some advertising of the UI and the augmented reality displays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E
- Platform plans: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09/volkswagen-audi-porsche...
- Associations: https://www.automotivelinux.org/announcements/2019/04/08/vol...
Toyota and BMW both are dragging their heels with EVs and are mostly focusing on hybrids and hydrogen. IMHO both are a dead end and an expensive mistake.
Battery prices and range are on track to improve for the foreseeable future and most other manufacturers are basically preparing to massively increase production of the dozens of EVs they announced in the next few years. There are very few manufacturers left that are not fully committed to EVs at this point. Toyota, Mazda, BMW, Fiat, and a few others basically.
BMW already is signalling they expect issues with market share, growth, profit etc. and just appointed a new CEO to fix this. In other words, they are late to this game, they know it, and are now acting to fix this. I know less about Toyota but they seem to be very stubbornly ignoring battery EVs so far. IMHO that signals long term trouble for them as well. Unless they find a way to catch up in a hurry. Either way, they are late and the rest of the industry is not waiting for them. IMHO Nissan and Honda, are in much better shape.
For most manufacturers the key game the next ten years is going to be securing availability of low cost batteries with decent range while balancing that cost with the absolute massive cost of dismantling their legacy manufacturing and supply industry. I expect layoffs directly related to that in Germany may affect tens of thousands or possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs across the thousands of companies that make up the car industry and their suppliers over the next decade. BMW just announced layoffs for 6000 in Germany. My guess is that won't be the last time.
Tesla is where they are in the market right now because they decided years ago to produce battery packs in house and recently to also start producing their own battery cells. That gives them a cost and technical advantage. They have no legacy business and every penny that comes in is invested in more production capacity, lowering cost, and improving technology.
VW is investing tens of billions to catch up in the next few years. IMHO this is exactly the right thing to do for them and I think Dieselgate helped speed up the decision making. The ID.3 is an important milestone for them and when they start shipping this in volume in a few years, it will no doubt affect the rest of the industry. They are already talking about Id.4 and my guess is they are not stopping there. I think there's a good chance they might wipe out or flat out absorb a few of their competitors in the process. BMW for example. Meanwhile Tesla has at least five years and probably closer to ten years where they are basically enjoying volume and cost advantages essentially unchallenged. I'd be surprised if they don't establish themselves as one of the top car manufacturers during that time.
Battery prices and range are on track to improve for the foreseeable future and most other manufacturers are basically preparing to massively increase production of the dozens of EVs they announced in the next few years. There are very few manufacturers left that are not fully committed to EVs at this point. Toyota, Mazda, BMW, Fiat, and a few others basically.
BMW already is signalling they expect issues with market share, growth, profit etc. and just appointed a new CEO to fix this. In other words, they are late to this game, they know it, and are now acting to fix this. I know less about Toyota but they seem to be very stubbornly ignoring battery EVs so far. IMHO that signals long term trouble for them as well. Unless they find a way to catch up in a hurry. Either way, they are late and the rest of the industry is not waiting for them. IMHO Nissan and Honda, are in much better shape.
For most manufacturers the key game the next ten years is going to be securing availability of low cost batteries with decent range while balancing that cost with the absolute massive cost of dismantling their legacy manufacturing and supply industry. I expect layoffs directly related to that in Germany may affect tens of thousands or possibly hundreds of thousands of jobs across the thousands of companies that make up the car industry and their suppliers over the next decade. BMW just announced layoffs for 6000 in Germany. My guess is that won't be the last time.
Tesla is where they are in the market right now because they decided years ago to produce battery packs in house and recently to also start producing their own battery cells. That gives them a cost and technical advantage. They have no legacy business and every penny that comes in is invested in more production capacity, lowering cost, and improving technology.
VW is investing tens of billions to catch up in the next few years. IMHO this is exactly the right thing to do for them and I think Dieselgate helped speed up the decision making. The ID.3 is an important milestone for them and when they start shipping this in volume in a few years, it will no doubt affect the rest of the industry. They are already talking about Id.4 and my guess is they are not stopping there. I think there's a good chance they might wipe out or flat out absorb a few of their competitors in the process. BMW for example. Meanwhile Tesla has at least five years and probably closer to ten years where they are basically enjoying volume and cost advantages essentially unchallenged. I'd be surprised if they don't establish themselves as one of the top car manufacturers during that time.
BMW has an electric model just like Nissan, Renault. And it's a good car too, albeit kind of weird looking and with limited range. It's quite perfect for city driving, has an optional scooter engine if your battery is dead. I'm not a BMW fan but I like the i3, because it's everything other BMW models aren't. Most traditional car manufacturers are testing the EV waters with compact minis. Tesla is in the US market so of course they had to have a SUV. They don't have a pickup truck though.
Yes, the i3, which they are discontinuing. Most of their lineup is hybrids and ICE vehicles. They do have an electric mini which they recently announced as well as a few more models that they announced. Lets just say they are moving but slowly and rather late.
Yes, they're quite late to the show. Probably because their customers want muscle cars: hooligan M2s, hideous oversized fastback SUVs or luxury sedans. Most of their customer base wants cars with at least 250 mile range to be able to commute with on the autobahn, which they are unable to offer yet. Not EV minis. BMW blamed 20% revenue losses on EV R&D and emissions compiance.
Daimler, a company with similar clientelle, is moving even more slowly. At least they announced the EQC SUV, an EQV van, the EQ sedan. Which are of course all vapour yet. We'll see how good they are when they do arrive. Daimler does have have the truck division to keep them afloat and a two seat supermini, the Smart electric drive, which barely qualifies as a car.
Daimler, a company with similar clientelle, is moving even more slowly. At least they announced the EQC SUV, an EQV van, the EQ sedan. Which are of course all vapour yet. We'll see how good they are when they do arrive. Daimler does have have the truck division to keep them afloat and a two seat supermini, the Smart electric drive, which barely qualifies as a car.
Both are getting a lot of competition from Tesla currently. Apparently some of their former customers want fast electrical vehicles. Also, trucks are going electric. So, Daimler might have a fight on their hand there as well.
I love it, but I don’t think these are even coming to the North American market.
The US is getting the ID.4 which is a compact crossover about the size of the Tiguan. It should look like their Crozz concept and should be revealed in February.
The President of VW USA gave an interview recently stating the reason why we aren't getting the 3. One segment sells 60,000 cars the other sells 5 million. I think the ID.3 could sell great here and capture a lot more consumers than the typical market segment. Oh well.
The President of VW USA gave an interview recently stating the reason why we aren't getting the 3. One segment sells 60,000 cars the other sells 5 million. I think the ID.3 could sell great here and capture a lot more consumers than the typical market segment. Oh well.
VW in the US seems to me to lately be directly targeting US cars rather than trying to provide 'european imports' to the USA.
There was some marketing language on their site a month or so back about the new jetta being 'blend of US and german' or something like that.
I as a mk6 jetta owner personally think it looks like a ford, and thus hate it- not that I hate fords, but if I wanted a ford I'd buy a ford. My VW is supposed to be minimalist and understated, not in your face BAM nacho cheese cascade hops double IPA and quadruple Decker cheeseburger.
Kind of reminds me of beige box apple back in the day going after the business market, or anyone else selling losing differentiation to go after market share..
There was some marketing language on their site a month or so back about the new jetta being 'blend of US and german' or something like that.
I as a mk6 jetta owner personally think it looks like a ford, and thus hate it- not that I hate fords, but if I wanted a ford I'd buy a ford. My VW is supposed to be minimalist and understated, not in your face BAM nacho cheese cascade hops double IPA and quadruple Decker cheeseburger.
Kind of reminds me of beige box apple back in the day going after the business market, or anyone else selling losing differentiation to go after market share..
The modern Ford alternatives (Focus, Fusion/Mondeo) are far more German/European, ironically. They were actually designed for the European and global market first unlike the American VW products, and the differences show.
That's sad to hear, Id actually put deposit on one right now.
There's dozens other people who would. Dozens.
They are not cash constrained and don't need your deposits. They missed out on a great marketing trick though: Make it exclusive.
Which begs the question.. why not? They would sell incredibly well. Things like this continue to make me question how committed these legacy automakers truly are in regarding to making and selling EVs.
Possibly they're constrained by battery supply, or maybe they don't think they can ramp up production fast enough to supply all markets at once.
We'll know they're really committed when they stop making gas/diesel cars (which they've said they're planning to do eventually).
We'll know they're really committed when they stop making gas/diesel cars (which they've said they're planning to do eventually).
Of course they are constrained by battery supply as a primary reason. The second reason is EVERY SINGLE EV hurts their dealers, because the maintenance is so much less. No spark plugs, mufflers, less use of brakes because of regen, no tune ups. They can still go wrong but so much is not needed in evs. Dealers make most of their profits from maintenance, and thus - they don't want them.
No, maintenance is generally done by separate auto shops. These do sometimes license the brand to become "authorized" but they definitely have nothing to do with car dealership.
Sorry but i disagree, this is widely known. A neutral article says half of dealer profit comes from maintenance. It doesn't matter that a lot of maintenance comes from outside shops. At the dealer, lots of profit comes from maintenance and that's drastically reduced with evs.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer... "So where does the majority of a dealership's profit come from? It's not from car sales, at least not directly. It's from the service and parts department, which accounts for the other 49.6% of the dealership's gross profits, according to NADA."
https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer... "So where does the majority of a dealership's profit come from? It's not from car sales, at least not directly. It's from the service and parts department, which accounts for the other 49.6% of the dealership's gross profits, according to NADA."
Exactly what Tesla did when it marketed the 3. Wait list. Have friends that still waiting.
Perfectly normal, factories for EVs have to be built from ground up or adapted. This takes time. In the meantime, why not win hearts and minds?
Perfectly normal, factories for EVs have to be built from ground up or adapted. This takes time. In the meantime, why not win hearts and minds?
In the meantime, you could get a few Nissan Leaf Plus - due next year most likely.
And unlike VW and Tesla, Nissan has the production capacity...
And unlike VW and Tesla, Nissan has the production capacity...
This is a bit like the 80s in communist countries: you'd wait for years on a waiting list to be able to buy a car.
I'm surprised they're advertising. They should just reveal more details slowly like Tesla. It should sell itself as they become available for test drives.
> The central focus is a new 10-inch touchscreen that sits in the middle of the ID.3’s dashboard. But VW has also opted to rely on touch-sensitive buttons throughout the cabin. In fact, the only things that are controlled through physical buttons, VW says, are the windows and the hazard lights.
I don't understand why big touch screens in cars are seen as a step forward. To me, they raise safety issues, and they lack the elegant and simple ergonomics of earlier cars. By definition, you have to look at a touch screen to use it. In older cars, you might have to glance at the speedometer, and you can do that without even moving your neck.
The huge screen is the number 1 reason I would not buy a Tesla.
I don't understand why big touch screens in cars are seen as a step forward. To me, they raise safety issues, and they lack the elegant and simple ergonomics of earlier cars. By definition, you have to look at a touch screen to use it. In older cars, you might have to glance at the speedometer, and you can do that without even moving your neck.
The huge screen is the number 1 reason I would not buy a Tesla.
I have a Model 3, and ever since I added Alexa Auto, I have no reason to use the touchscreen other than adding a destination to nav. Climate is set to auto. All other configurations automatically switch between my preferences and my wife’s based upon who is in the driver’s seat. I was a skeptic, but now I’m a believer.
You like the touchscreen now that you don't have to use it?
So in your case it wouldn't matter whether there is a touchscreen or not, because you admit to not using it.
There's no reason a car can't have physical buttons and voice control
So in your case it wouldn't matter whether there is a touchscreen or not, because you admit to not using it.
There's no reason a car can't have physical buttons and voice control
I was skeptical that I’d like the car. Overall, it’s well thought out.
There is one physical button I still want and that’s for the windshield wipers. The car wash triggers them (maybe a GPS fence around car washes to disable?? One which is only enabled when the local weather says it isn’t currently raining) and the non-touch free car washes will damage them if they’re operating. So, I keep the wipers on manual.
The joy of a Tesla is that my idea for “car wash geo fence to disable wipers when not raining” - could be in the next software version.
There is one physical button I still want and that’s for the windshield wipers. The car wash triggers them (maybe a GPS fence around car washes to disable?? One which is only enabled when the local weather says it isn’t currently raining) and the non-touch free car washes will damage them if they’re operating. So, I keep the wipers on manual.
The joy of a Tesla is that my idea for “car wash geo fence to disable wipers when not raining” - could be in the next software version.
Or: if in neutral, then don't ever turn on the wipers.
Better than hoping you geocoded every car wash on the planet.
Better than hoping you geocoded every car wash on the planet.
That would work too. I do suspect the built in map has the location of car washes. Could be crowdsourced by looking for common locations where people put their cars into neutral.
> There's no reason a car can't have physical buttons and voice control
Cost and complexity - dials are way harder to do than a touchscreen.
Cost and complexity - dials are way harder to do than a touchscreen.
They're actually much easier, but the design has to be careful to make them useful.
The touchscreen requires a (small, embedded) PC. The dials can even be done analog or with the cheapest of microcontrollers.
The touchscreen trend is due to misguided minimalism which puts all the functionality in one piece of hardware.
The touchscreen requires a (small, embedded) PC. The dials can even be done analog or with the cheapest of microcontrollers.
The touchscreen trend is due to misguided minimalism which puts all the functionality in one piece of hardware.
I think it is cost savings, to be honest. Probably a lot cheaper to throw a screen in a car and iterate on the design then spend the time to design a proper physical interface. With physical buttons it is very expensive to add a new button, with touch screens you just copy in some HTML.
Sure, because adding a touch button is free there's UI overload and lack of tactility.
You have to switch multiple screens to do what you want. That's no good, it's only perhaps ok for things you should never do while driving.
You have to switch multiple screens to do what you want. That's no good, it's only perhaps ok for things you should never do while driving.
At least vw offers a dashboard AND the option of a Heads Up display.
The lack of a dashboard (in the line of sight) is the reason I did not buy a model 3.
I actually like the large display in portrait mode in the model S. I do not like the UI though. You fiddle with controls to the side and down while driving. I cannot imagine the design came from people driving a moving vehicle.
The giant horizontal display in the model 3 is difficult too. The near part of the screen is for speed and other status. So for controls you will be fiddling WAY off to the side.
Maybe with competition all the cars will improve.
The lack of a dashboard (in the line of sight) is the reason I did not buy a model 3.
I actually like the large display in portrait mode in the model S. I do not like the UI though. You fiddle with controls to the side and down while driving. I cannot imagine the design came from people driving a moving vehicle.
The giant horizontal display in the model 3 is difficult too. The near part of the screen is for speed and other status. So for controls you will be fiddling WAY off to the side.
Maybe with competition all the cars will improve.
You also can't use them with gloves on, and at least where I live, I'm always wearing gloves in the winter.
This. It feels insane that some manufacturers don't think about it, but I use gloves ~6 months a year when driving (even when my car has heated steering wheel).
Operating a car with touch buttons is just stupid, I can't feel any "haptic" from those and some of them won't even register anything. Getting gloves off and looking at some screen while driving isn't safe.
Operating a car with touch buttons is just stupid, I can't feel any "haptic" from those and some of them won't even register anything. Getting gloves off and looking at some screen while driving isn't safe.
You can buy touch screen friendly gloves... I always keep a pair in my car... nice thing about an electric car is you pre-heat without burning gas and being generally evil to the environment:)
Those don't work if it's especially cold. Even if cold-weather mitts had capacitive ability, they don't allow enough dexterity to do anything other than mash your hands all over a screen.
I wear these mitts in the winter: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-gloves/merc...
I wear these mitts in the winter: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_CA/mens-gloves/merc...
You drive a car with boxing gloves on?
If you're calling the mitts I linked boxing gloves, then yes. They work just fine for turning the car on/off, steering, shifting, operating the stalk instruments and adjusting all the knob-based controls. I've got Raynaud syndrome (as do a number of my family members), and the alternative to wearing "boxing gloves" in the winter is very uncomfortable.
Some companies (at least some Hondas from personal experience) use electrostatic screens that fix that problem. Resistive also works but they are SOOO mushy and scratchable.
The whole debate of screen vs buttons in cars reminds me of the early days of smart phones "surely being one large screen is worse, I like my buttons!".
The whole point of Tesla's infotainment is to not be touching or changing anything while driving, its all configured based on who unlocked the car.
The whole point of Tesla's infotainment is to not be touching or changing anything while driving, its all configured based on who unlocked the car.
I was in an Uber last week with a large screen in the middle of the dash. For some reason it was a glossy screen so it was covered in fingerprints. Seemed like it would be prone to glare too. But when clean and in the right lighting, I bet it looks amazing.
You get used to it. I agree it's not perfect but the car as a whole is amazing. It's just a completely different experience. As the self driving features become better this becomes even less than an issue. At any rate, you don't buy the model 3 because of the screen, you buy it because it's a great car that happens to have it's UI on a screen. Great driving experience, no more gas stations, no more oil changes, don't kill the planet while you're driving...
[deleted]
The touch screens are there for the same reason that software is filled with user-hostile animations and contrast trade-offs: they look cool (aka they demo well) which leads to more sales.
A thousand times this. I recently bought a Toyota Vellfire which has a touch screen ICE and I find that annoying enough on its own, I'd _hate_ to have to fiddle around on a screen to operate other car functionality.
IMO the difference here is like comparing early versions of blackberry around 2008 that tried to compete with the iPhone. They were really bad too...
Gah the best thing about VWs is their boring and traditional interiors.
You should to look at hardware buttons as often as on software ones. Just try to turn heat on in latest MB.
Large dials are the best. For instance the GE8 Honda fit has 3 huge dials, a lever, and 2 huge buttons that control the climate. It's extremely easy to adjust by touch without looking. https://imgur.com/a/V2yhIi6
Yup, absolutely. I have a Yaris, which has a very similar simple 3 dial climate control system. I much prefer it over "temperature" based climate control like most new cars have - the temperature feeling in the cabin changes wildly depending on radiative heat flux (i.e. sunlight), and having a constant temperature air blowing out of the vents is not helpful.
I would love for an electric car to have 3 dials for climate control, PLUS a moderate sized screen for navigation/music/etc
I would love for an electric car to have 3 dials for climate control, PLUS a moderate sized screen for navigation/music/etc
The looks a lot better than the utterly stupid climate control interface on my Prius.
VW says the base version of the ID.3 will only charge at up to 50kW, and owners who want to charge faster (up to 100kW) will have to pay extra
This is an unfortunate decision. Charging EVs is a collective-action problem. Selling cars that have at least double the charging time at capable public chargers contributes to that collective-action problem. VW could have set a relatively quick lower boundary on charging speed, perhaps by raising the price of the higher-version models to subsidize the price of a 100kW base model.
The problem is worse for this class of car, which is billed as long-range and thus is more likely to have the car's occupants (and other queued cars) waiting for a mid-journey charge to complete, versus a short-range car where owners are more likely to charge overnight or during a work shift.
This is an unfortunate decision. Charging EVs is a collective-action problem. Selling cars that have at least double the charging time at capable public chargers contributes to that collective-action problem. VW could have set a relatively quick lower boundary on charging speed, perhaps by raising the price of the higher-version models to subsidize the price of a 100kW base model.
The problem is worse for this class of car, which is billed as long-range and thus is more likely to have the car's occupants (and other queued cars) waiting for a mid-journey charge to complete, versus a short-range car where owners are more likely to charge overnight or during a work shift.
I'm really excited for more viable electric vehicles. But, the claim that this is the first car for the masses when it's simply 2-3k (~33k to ~35k in USD) cheaper than a Tesla model 3 is discouraging.
That said, I do understand that the total cost of ownership does catch up if you keep the car long enough. I would just love to see something in the 20s, or even lower. (Further, I'm very sympathetic to the argument that reduced carbon is more important than my personal financial expense.)
[edit]
Thanks for all the clarification. I had no idea about VAT.
That said, I do understand that the total cost of ownership does catch up if you keep the car long enough. I would just love to see something in the 20s, or even lower. (Further, I'm very sympathetic to the argument that reduced carbon is more important than my personal financial expense.)
[edit]
Thanks for all the clarification. I had no idea about VAT.
Be careful when comparing EU prices to US prices: EU prices always include sales tax (varies by country, but 20% in France and 19% in Germany), while US prices never include them. Assuming 10% tariffs and 20% sales taxes, that bumps the $35,000 Tesla to $46,200, or about 42,000 EUR.
Indeed the cheapest Model 3 that I could find in France costs 42,600 EUR. If the Volkswagen ID.3 comes in somewhere between 26,000 EUR and 30,000 EUR, it will indeed be quite a bit cheaper.
Indeed the cheapest Model 3 that I could find in France costs 42,600 EUR. If the Volkswagen ID.3 comes in somewhere between 26,000 EUR and 30,000 EUR, it will indeed be quite a bit cheaper.
Why does everyone always compare with Tesla when Hyundai, Kia, Renault, and Nissan already have cars that are either cheaper than the VW or very similar in price?
The Zoe is surely an electric car for the masses and is the best selling electric car in Europe measured over the period 2010 to 2017. And you can get one for about EU 25 000, at least in the UK. See https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renau... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_E...
The Zoe is surely an electric car for the masses and is the best selling electric car in Europe measured over the period 2010 to 2017. And you can get one for about EU 25 000, at least in the UK. See https://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/new-cars/renault/zoe/renau... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_E...
US-centrism is a part of it. Renault don't sell anything in the US. Nissan America may as well be called Datsun [1] for how well it currently reflects Nissan's fleet in Europe and Asia. The Leaf is Nissan America's ugly stepchild that they barely advertise, were forced to sell by "dad" (Nissan Group), and most Americans probably don't remember exists. Similarly Hyundai and Kia have much different overall US fleets than European ones, and have been slow to bring their EV options to US markets. (Just as VW is targeting 2020 for Europe ID.3 sales, but has made no word of when US sales might start. Or Honda America is entirely ignoring the Honda e.)
As far as most of the US is concerned it really is just Tesla to compare with for EV sales. (GM's Bolt maybe the only other footnote to that.)
[1] At one point Ghosn even tried to rebrand most of Nissan America's (gas guzzling, oversized) vehicles directly to Datsun in a strategy to make them easier to sell off/kill once EVs actually catch on in the US. No idea if that sort of plan still exists at Nissan Group post-Ghosn.
As far as most of the US is concerned it really is just Tesla to compare with for EV sales. (GM's Bolt maybe the only other footnote to that.)
[1] At one point Ghosn even tried to rebrand most of Nissan America's (gas guzzling, oversized) vehicles directly to Datsun in a strategy to make them easier to sell off/kill once EVs actually catch on in the US. No idea if that sort of plan still exists at Nissan Group post-Ghosn.
Long story short: Renault Zoe is actually a terrible car. As it was the previous versions of the Nissan Leaf.
The reason why they sold quite a few number of cars is because they were the only ones in the market within their price range.
Why are they terrible? Mandatory battery rental, low range, expensive when compared to their ICE counterparts and no active cooling of their batteries which made them degrade a lot over a short time.
Those electric offerings were just some lazy attempts of expanding their product range to electric and they weren't true attempts to make a good electric product.
The reason why they sold quite a few number of cars is because they were the only ones in the market within their price range.
Why are they terrible? Mandatory battery rental, low range, expensive when compared to their ICE counterparts and no active cooling of their batteries which made them degrade a lot over a short time.
Those electric offerings were just some lazy attempts of expanding their product range to electric and they weren't true attempts to make a good electric product.
> Mandatory battery rental
You can buy the batteries these days:
https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-u...
You can buy the batteries these days:
https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-u...
I presume that the "under €30,000" price includes the 19% VAT, since IIRC advertised prices are required to include the VAT. The Model 3 SR+ is €44,500 in Germany. Subtract the EV credit and it seems to me that the id.3 will only slightly more than half the price of the Model 3.
I feel like everyone overlooks the Chevy Bolt (probably because of all the Tesla hype). At the dealer (w/ bargaining and/or discounts), you can get one for 30k USD.
This is before the US federal tax credit, so you'll get some money back.
This is before the US federal tax credit, so you'll get some money back.
US dealer networks are hostile in particular to EVs because they undercut one of their two primary revenue pillars: maintenance.
The other pillar is used car sales. I'll never understand why car makers built a sales network fundamentally incented to NOT sell their product.
The other pillar is used car sales. I'll never understand why car makers built a sales network fundamentally incented to NOT sell their product.
The pricing is more complicated than that. There is no way to buy a Model 3 at 35K$ in Europe. In France for instance, the minimum price is a whopping 48K€. Source : I wanted to buy a Model 3 in France.
- 35K$ is actually 39K$, excluding the off the menu version. You can't buy a Model 3 without Autopilot anymore, even though I don't care about Autopilot. And I'm not even sure you can buy the "off the menu" version of the Model 3 in France. So the base price is 39K$ which is 35.4K€.
- You add the Trump tariffs, eg 10%. Model 3 is now 38.9K€.
- In France (Europe ?) all prices are after VAT, which are again 20%. Model 3 is now 46.7K€.
- Tesla adds a couple grands to the price to move the car overseas. The least expensive price available in France is 48 600 €.
- They pre-deduce the French carbon bonus (6K€) so they can say they sell the Model 3 at 42 600 €, which is a lie.
In France the median price for new cars is around 27K€. In my opinion there is clearly room for electric vehicles priced between 27K€ (median) and 48.6K€ (Model 3 before carbon bonus).
After being very disappointed with the Model 3 French pricing, I'm currently interested in the Nissan Leaf. I will now also follow what Volkswagen is doing with the ID.3.
- 35K$ is actually 39K$, excluding the off the menu version. You can't buy a Model 3 without Autopilot anymore, even though I don't care about Autopilot. And I'm not even sure you can buy the "off the menu" version of the Model 3 in France. So the base price is 39K$ which is 35.4K€.
- You add the Trump tariffs, eg 10%. Model 3 is now 38.9K€.
- In France (Europe ?) all prices are after VAT, which are again 20%. Model 3 is now 46.7K€.
- Tesla adds a couple grands to the price to move the car overseas. The least expensive price available in France is 48 600 €.
- They pre-deduce the French carbon bonus (6K€) so they can say they sell the Model 3 at 42 600 €, which is a lie.
In France the median price for new cars is around 27K€. In my opinion there is clearly room for electric vehicles priced between 27K€ (median) and 48.6K€ (Model 3 before carbon bonus).
After being very disappointed with the Model 3 French pricing, I'm currently interested in the Nissan Leaf. I will now also follow what Volkswagen is doing with the ID.3.
Pedantic maybe, but the 10% is not the Trump tariff, but the EU tariff. As far as I know it predates Trump's election and various trade wars.
Not pedantic, thank you for this info.
I was under the impression this tariff existed because of the trade wars. The bad news is that it is less likely to be removed once Trump is out of office :-(
I was under the impression this tariff existed because of the trade wars. The bad news is that it is less likely to be removed once Trump is out of office :-(
US tariffs are 2.5% on cars and 25% on light trucks, while in the EU it is 10% on both. Most vehicles (66% [1]) sold in the US fall under the light-truck category. What Trump has threatened to do is to impose a 25% tariff not only on cars, but maybe more importantly also on auto parts. So far it has not happened.
[1] https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken...
[1] https://www.aei.org/publication/the-anti-consumer-25-chicken...
He's still threatening both the EU and Japan with the 25% car tariff. If the EU fails to negotiate in a timely manner it will get hit with the vehicle tariff.
And that’s for a 205mi range (that will be WLTP not EPA so real world will be ~15% lower) on a 45kWh battery back that can only charge at 50kW.
Top speed is 99mph, 0-60 is unannounced.
The higher priced versions can charge up to 100kW. But frankly, the base model specs seem abysmal?
Top speed is 99mph, 0-60 is unannounced.
The higher priced versions can charge up to 100kW. But frankly, the base model specs seem abysmal?
> 0-60 is unannounced
Anybody looking for a mid-range Golf/ID.3 type car (excluding top models like GTI/R/etc.) cares very little about 0-100Km/h times. In the same vein they also didn't announce the Nürburgring lap times.
Edit. Also based on the numbers Tesla publishes for the same car the difference between WLTP and EPA is less that 7%. Is it expected that in some cases it varies up to 15%?
Anybody looking for a mid-range Golf/ID.3 type car (excluding top models like GTI/R/etc.) cares very little about 0-100Km/h times. In the same vein they also didn't announce the Nürburgring lap times.
Edit. Also based on the numbers Tesla publishes for the same car the difference between WLTP and EPA is less that 7%. Is it expected that in some cases it varies up to 15%?
254 vs 240mi for SR+ but 348 vs 310mi for the LR.
Tesla M3 SR+ is advertised as 240mi (386Km) EPA in the US vs. 409Km WLTP in the EU, a 6% difference. The LR is 310mi (~500Km) EPA vs. 560Km WLTP, a 12% difference. Assuming the tests are designed in such a way that for some reason they start to diverge massively the longer the range (6% at 240mi but 12% at 310mi) then for an ID.3 with a 210mi range there is no reason at this point to assume 15% difference but rather under 10%.
Given that you obviously know the numbers your extrapolation, while it may turn out to be true, seems more bad faith than reasonable assumption at this point.
Given that you obviously know the numbers your extrapolation, while it may turn out to be true, seems more bad faith than reasonable assumption at this point.
You can’t extrapolate like that. 15% is just a rule of thumb. I had to lookup the numbers to provide the reply, I didn’t know them off hand.
Some shorter range cars (e.g. BMW i3) have larger drops (19%).
I just found a spreadsheet on Reddit which shows the average for all cars OP could find is a drop of 11.5%
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2...
Some shorter range cars (e.g. BMW i3) have larger drops (19%).
I just found a spreadsheet on Reddit which shows the average for all cars OP could find is a drop of 11.5%
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BvlOf89ebiT0n16ma1V2...
The base model has a higher range per dollar than an SR+ by a comfortable margin. Abysmal seems like a strong word...? It might not be as fast or sexy as a Tesla, but cars like this will be the bread and butter of the EV transition.
30k EUR - 19% VAT = ~$27,750 USD, or $135 per WLTP mile.
SR+ is $38,990 with a range of 254, or $153 per WLTP mile.
30k EUR - 19% VAT = ~$27,750 USD, or $135 per WLTP mile.
SR+ is $38,990 with a range of 254, or $153 per WLTP mile.
I think if you’re going to extrapolate a fictional ID.3 by backing out the VAT, the least you could do is compare against an SR- at $35,000 to get $137. Or alternatively the LR at 348mi WLTP range (+12.25%) for $47,990 = $138.
Of course range per dollar is a funny metric because it’s like saying it’s the only thing you are paying for.
Of course range per dollar is a funny metric because it’s like saying it’s the only thing you are paying for.
Removing the VAT is absolutely the right way to make the comparison. I didn't use EU prices for the Model 3 so as to not penalize it for tariffs and shipping. I honestly can't believe you're pushing back on that.
The specs don't match up to a Model 3, but it's a much cheaper car. If they were the same price, I'd understand your distaste.
The specs don't match up to a Model 3, but it's a much cheaper car. If they were the same price, I'd understand your distaste.
This is what, in marketing, is called "positioning".
VW is trying to "position" their car as the default electric car, or at least, the only viable alternative to Tesla.
If you don't set your own position, then your competitors will set your position for you. Now it's up to Tesla (or whoever else) to re-position VW, without looking nasty doing it. "The ID.3 is good choice if you can't afford the extra $3k for a Tesla. But only a Tesla has all the features you need, and will keep your family alive in an impact". You don't say "Tesla good, ID.3 bad". This makes you sound nasty. You say "ID.3 good if <scenario that doesn't apply to customers>, but Tesla better if <scenario that applies to customers>"
It's all marketing nonsense at this point until the car exists.
VW is trying to "position" their car as the default electric car, or at least, the only viable alternative to Tesla.
If you don't set your own position, then your competitors will set your position for you. Now it's up to Tesla (or whoever else) to re-position VW, without looking nasty doing it. "The ID.3 is good choice if you can't afford the extra $3k for a Tesla. But only a Tesla has all the features you need, and will keep your family alive in an impact". You don't say "Tesla good, ID.3 bad". This makes you sound nasty. You say "ID.3 good if <scenario that doesn't apply to customers>, but Tesla better if <scenario that applies to customers>"
It's all marketing nonsense at this point until the car exists.
An article comparing the cost of ownership of Volkswagen ID.3 vs. Volkswagen Golf: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/19/volkswagen-id-3-vs-volk...
Cost of gas and electricity are based, if I understand correctly, on German prices.
Cost of gas and electricity are based, if I understand correctly, on German prices.
Note that at least part of the lower TCO is due to the fact that they expect the id.3 to retain 43% of value, and the normal golf to retain 33% of value. Setting these to equal eliminates any advantage, either way, the 5 year cost difference is largely a wash out.
That different cars retain value differently isn't intrinsically a problem, however assuming a high resale value for an unknown car feels like stacking the deck. To be fair, the author does give a justification for this difference, it's up to you if you agree with it.
That different cars retain value differently isn't intrinsically a problem, however assuming a high resale value for an unknown car feels like stacking the deck. To be fair, the author does give a justification for this difference, it's up to you if you agree with it.
Regarding long-term value, a bus company here chose to order electric buses in part because they suspect that in the lifetime of a bus, diesel engines could be banned in cities.
That's starting to happen now in Paris: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-paris-pollution/gre...
Considering how much a used golf with a lowered odometer costs in the balkans (imported from germany), that's quite a weird theory.
For the masses? My family is doing fairly well for people in my generation and I've never ever briefly considered buying a car for more than 10k.
That’s a nice anecdote. The average new car selling price is over $30k (in the US).
And what is the median? Is it for new cars only?
The median figure doesn't exist. I've looked for it for ten years, it never gets reported anywhere.
The $34,000 figure (2019) is the average for all new consumer passenger vehicles, including SUVs, trucks (eg F-150), luxury, etc.
A typical mass market vehicle will more often be in the $22,000 to $26,000 range. From a Honda Civic around $19k, to high volume trucks around $26k-$32k (all base model prices). The Ford Explorer is one of the only vehicles on the top 20 best selling list where the base model well exceeds $30,000; it starts at $36k, versus the F-150 that starts at $28k.
The $34,000 figure (2019) is the average for all new consumer passenger vehicles, including SUVs, trucks (eg F-150), luxury, etc.
A typical mass market vehicle will more often be in the $22,000 to $26,000 range. From a Honda Civic around $19k, to high volume trucks around $26k-$32k (all base model prices). The Ford Explorer is one of the only vehicles on the top 20 best selling list where the base model well exceeds $30,000; it starts at $36k, versus the F-150 that starts at $28k.
At least for Germany, it is pretty much impossible to really know the average price of a new car. This is mostly due to so called "Händlerzulassungen", which means the dealer will actually buy the car, register it for a day, and then sell it as officially "used". This is why at least in the official statistic, only 30% of all new cars in Germany are sold to private citizens. Dealers do this because they are then more flexible w.r.t. pricing, and also they often get bonuses for registering a certain amount of cars in a quarter.
I don’t think that’s done in the US. At least I’ve never heard of it, and if a dealer tried it with me I’d probably walk out, assuming they were scamming me somehow.
Generally states require a vehicle to be driven for a certain amount of time before it can be sold as used. I'm also not sure that dealers are permitted to register cars that they are not using as service loaners.
I think the point is a used 10k car will almost always be more cost effective.
Of course it will be, but isn’t that totally irrelevant? You can’t release a new type of used car!
Bangeronomics make most sense only if you are willing to work on your own car.
Not really. For $10k, I got a car in really good condition with ~$60k miles, and most cars don't have issues until at least 100k miles, if not closer to 150k miles. My car has ~120k miles right now, and I've done very little aside from getting oil changes and having the factory service around 90k miles.
My car cost ~$20k new, and I could sell it for $3-5k, so I'm already ahead if I sold and bought another $10k car today.
Buying a new car only really makes sense if you're really interested in cutting edge technology or are very particular in the options you want. You can't really get a reasonable electric car used, so new is going to be your best bet there. However, you will pay more than if you buy a quality used car.
My car cost ~$20k new, and I could sell it for $3-5k, so I'm already ahead if I sold and bought another $10k car today.
Buying a new car only really makes sense if you're really interested in cutting edge technology or are very particular in the options you want. You can't really get a reasonable electric car used, so new is going to be your best bet there. However, you will pay more than if you buy a quality used car.
They make even less sense for complex, proprietary EVs.
It's difficult to generalize. A 10k luxury car is a high-risk proposition, unlikely to be cost effective. (cost of maintenance, insurance, etc.)
These might be 10k when you buy them used...
That's a nice anecdote. What's the average new and not new car selling price?
> For the masses? My family is doing fairly well for people in my generation and I've never ever briefly considered buying a car for more than 10k.
Identify your reasons for that and ask yourself if they're representative of how "the masses" tend to think about their purchases.
(the average used car price in the US is over $20k)
Identify your reasons for that and ask yourself if they're representative of how "the masses" tend to think about their purchases.
(the average used car price in the US is over $20k)
This was my thoughts exactly. I am fairly well off comparatively I make way over minimum wage and there is no way I would consider a car that expensive. Affordable to the masses is more like $20,000 Canadian. That would be the price I could call affordable to the masses. Even a 20,000$ purchase would be hard for most people in my town. As someone who has not looked at EV car prices if this is what they call affordable I guess am still a long way off from owning an EV.
EVs will not be affordable for the masses even if they are able to get under $20k since home ownership is still effectively a prerequisite for owning an EV right now.
10k for a new car is possible but you are quite limited. I am not even sure that Volkswagen has a single car under that price point, except maybe for end-of-life entry-level models.
Dacia prices start at 8k, and their cars are decent, but they are comparatively old tech. It means they won't get the latest advances regarding fuel economy and the low price is partly offset by higher fuel costs.
All in all, expect to pay around 15k for a no-thrills new car.
Obviously, used cars are cheaper but that's apple to oranges comparison. We don't know how much the ID.3 will cost used, so it's pointless.
Dacia prices start at 8k, and their cars are decent, but they are comparatively old tech. It means they won't get the latest advances regarding fuel economy and the low price is partly offset by higher fuel costs.
All in all, expect to pay around 15k for a no-thrills new car.
Obviously, used cars are cheaper but that's apple to oranges comparison. We don't know how much the ID.3 will cost used, so it's pointless.
And in a few years time, used ID.3's will be available for under 10K.
Probably more than a "few" I think that you will be looking at 5-7 for the cars to fall to under a third of new value. Although that depends on your definition of "a few"* I guess.
* https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/05/how-much-is-a-few...
* https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/05/how-much-is-a-few...
Conventional wisdom seems to be that at best electric cars will depreciate at the same rate as ICEs or at worst their values will fall off a cliff, the reality is very different, at least in the short run * obviously this will change as production of newer cars ramps up.
* https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on...
* https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on...
The thing I'm curious about is how they will age
I would guess the mechanical components, motors etc will potentially be more reliable than ICE
But I worry about the batteries, if my laptop is anything to go by it seems like they will eventually die and will be expensive to replace
I would guess the mechanical components, motors etc will potentially be more reliable than ICE
But I worry about the batteries, if my laptop is anything to go by it seems like they will eventually die and will be expensive to replace
Today's ICEs are very reliable and generally outlast the car body - assuming your follow the maintenance schedule. All the wear on the body will be the same: pot holes, salt, accidents... Motors won't have nearly as much maintenance (you still need to lube bearings), but the car will die based not on the method of motor power in most cases even if you don't do the maintenance.
Batteries are a worry. Price has come down, but used electric cars are very cheap compared to the ICE cars because of this very reason. Until the market figures out how to replace the batteries at scale, and then buyers figure out how to account for the battery this will not change.
Batteries are a worry. Price has come down, but used electric cars are very cheap compared to the ICE cars because of this very reason. Until the market figures out how to replace the batteries at scale, and then buyers figure out how to account for the battery this will not change.
Used Nissan Leaves seem to fall off a cliff. 2016 ones are already visible on ebay for under £10k.
Yeah they have two things not going for them. Limited range and battery degradation issues.
Also EV's tend to have rebates and tax write offs that reduce their actual purchase price significantly. Which probably also depresses resale prices.
Also EV's tend to have rebates and tax write offs that reduce their actual purchase price significantly. Which probably also depresses resale prices.
Not having thermal management on the batteries does not work for an EV.
On a side note: German government just announced tax incentives for business-registered EVs, but only for those with a sales price less than 40.000€ [0]. This seems like a tailored offer to exclude the Tesla Model 3 in favour of Volkswagens ID.3. This is a big deal as 2/3s of all newly registered cars are registered by businesses [1] (German).
[0]: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-higher-... [1]: https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-zw...
[0]: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/germany-offer-higher-... [1]: https://conplore.com/news-posts/diesel-dominiert-mehr-als-zw...
Similarly in Poland, current proposed plan is 30% value of a car, but with absolute max price limit of ... ~28K Euro, meaning only Opel Corsa-E qualifies. Why?!?
They claim an 8 year / 160K km warranty on their battery. But this usually means they claim to have X percent capacity left after this time. E.g. for the BMW i3 it's 70%. But how can a car owner even measure this? How would one go about claiming this warranty if he thinks it degraded too much?
> But how can a car owner even measure this?
You simply check what range you have with a full charge and compare with the advertised range or the range you had when you bought it new for your typical commute.
You simply check what range you have with a full charge and compare with the advertised range or the range you had when you bought it new for your typical commute.
As much as I can welcome more options for EVs, I just can't trust VW with electronics and software. It's catch-22, traditional automakers sucks at electronics and software, but tesla sucks at making cars.
I just had my Tesla
Model 3 serviced. A rear window needed replacing due to a rock chip. Mobile service came out, two bolts to remove the door panel, two for the glass. He was done in 20min. Whatever they’re designing for, it was obvious that Tesla is 1000x better than GM when it comes to rear windows. I recently replaced the rear window regulators on a GM Pickup. What a nightmare compared to the Tesla. They might suck short term, but their designs for trivial things like windows are amazing.
Why do electric cars have such different wheels, almost closed discs style? I still have to see the first Tesla with chrome rims.
Lower air resistance gives longer range.
The Tesla Model S has spoked aluminum rims in black. For some reason, nobody customizes them.
The Tesla Model S has spoked aluminum rims in black. For some reason, nobody customizes them.
Regenerative breaking also means less heat in the breaks I guess, so less need for cooling. Not sure how much that matters tho.
Motors integrated into the wheel might become a thing as well.
You mean make a comeback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche
That car would have been more popular if you could tell, by looking at it, which end was the front.
All the negativity is overlooking that this is a really exciting time for electric cars, IMO. Aside from price, Tesla is still by far the best option around as far as I can tell, but it's exciting that there are so many new cars coming out. An electric car doesn't quite work for me right now because of the limited charging options, but it seems like that's going to change rapidly.
Starting a few years ago industrial/automotive electronic manufacturers started heavily marketing stuff for electric cars and 'smart car' electronics. Before that the industry was slightly sleepy.
EV's mean a total rethinking of just about everything automotive.
EV's mean a total rethinking of just about everything automotive.
[deleted]
It's interesting to compare this car against the Honda e, which looks like an awesome little car. However, they've priced it about €7,000 more than the id.3 which is probably the reason it's getting comparably little buzz.
But the Honda-e has less range, right? Over here it says the Honda-e has about 125 miles of range, putting it on par with a 2016 Leaf.
https://ev-database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e
https://ev-database.uk/car/1171/Honda-e
I just discovered this SEAT: https://ev-database.uk/car/1191/SEAT-Mii-Electric
This is something I can buy.
This is something I can buy.
Hey thats a pretty good price. Built on the same platform as the ID3 apparently. 125 miles range is OK for 99% of the time. Long journeys then take a bit of planning but its very do-able.
No, it's the same care as the VW e-up!, which is not yet based on the new MEB platform.
I don’t think it is, this is based on a new platform that replaces the old e-up (which was rather mediocre).
All looks good, but the charging rate seems really slow.
Is there any technical reason for limiting the charge rate unless you pay more? I see this is becoming common now. Even Tesla does it.
I'd be willing to settle for the smaller battery as long as charging it was at the same higher rate. Sure, charging sessions are more frequent during long trips, but if you're charging a smaller battery at the same rate then the charging sessions are shorter. So it seems like they're just trying to get more money out of you by limiting the charging rate of the low-end cars.
I'd be willing to settle for the smaller battery as long as charging it was at the same higher rate. Sure, charging sessions are more frequent during long trips, but if you're charging a smaller battery at the same rate then the charging sessions are shorter. So it seems like they're just trying to get more money out of you by limiting the charging rate of the low-end cars.
The charging rate is related to how many cells the battery pack consists of. Each cell can take a certain charging current, so more cells = higher total current.
If they implement the longer range by adding more cells (which I assume they do), then that's your technical reason.
Of course, could also just be a way to get more money...
If they implement the longer range by adding more cells (which I assume they do), then that's your technical reason.
Of course, could also just be a way to get more money...
Even Tesla does it.
This was last true in 2016, when you could add a dual-charger option to your S or X to increase non-Supercharger charging from 48 amps to 72 amps (dual != double because of battery limitations). Would you mind citing your source?
This was last true in 2016, when you could add a dual-charger option to your S or X to increase non-Supercharger charging from 48 amps to 72 amps (dual != double because of battery limitations). Would you mind citing your source?
I thought heat was also a factor. If the batteries are liquid-cooled, you can keep them cooler and charge them faster. Is this true?
Or do most manufactures/models have battery cooling systems?
Or do most manufactures/models have battery cooling systems?
I didn't like that fact either. If you have a big battery and only need to charge once in a while it would not be so painful but with the smaller battery combined with the slower charging I wonder if it would get tedious waiting for it to charge all the time.
Seems that Tesla has a big advantage over other electric car manufactures because of their super charging stations.
VW ID.3 sure looks like a BMW i3, 5 years improved.
If you want the version with a larger battery, there is no firm ship date, but it is expected in 2021.
What I find somewhat amusing is that for the past months we've been bombarded by a huge marketing campaign advertising a car that doesn't exist :-)