Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia(catalannews.com)
catalannews.com
Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia
https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-takes-the-fight-against-independence-online
153 comments
The democracy index for Spain has been on the free fall for some years now. Whether Spain will return to a democratic approach to resolving civic and political issues rather than the current authoritarian approach that curtails civil freedoms for all Spaniards--not just Catalans--remains to be seen.
As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.
As for Tsunami Democratic, I'm afraid news reports haven't been fair. The disorders and criminal activities--which by the way the Spanish courts are labeling as "terrorism" despite any evidence--have been, by and large, carried out by infiltrated police agents. There is plenty of video footage online demonstrating case after case of police agents dressed as demonstrators, emerging from police vans in a side alley, joining a demonstration and engaging in deplorable behavior.
Can you support your statements with evidence? The data I provided is from 2018 and you are making assumptions based on a bunch of people in a country (2MM vs 50MM).
What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story.
You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades.
We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate.
Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.
What is happening here is that some independentists patrons are paying for PR around the world and you, guys, are only getting one part of the story.
You don't know nothing about they teaching fake history to kids, stating Colon is Catalonian, stating that the American flag is based on Catalonian flag... These guys are ridiculous and they have been brainwashing their population for decades.
We even have Junqueras (one of the leaders of the movement) telling that genetically, the Catalonian people are better than Spanish people so they need to separate.
Today, you have a lot of young people defending what they have been taught without knowing they are defending a bunch of lies.
Better stick to the facts rather than partisan polemics and distortion. They made Github take down an app for spreading information on and organizing demonstrations. These demonstrations have been by and large peaceful.
Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks like, unfortunately, is abusing their anti-terrorism laws to quell any protests. EU Commission should take a hard look on Spain and probably launch a rule-of-law review.
Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks like, unfortunately, is abusing their anti-terrorism laws to quell any protests. EU Commission should take a hard look on Spain and probably launch a rule-of-law review.
> Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly
Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities.
Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs.
We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.
Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities.
Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs.
We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.
> We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.
The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities.
So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause.
I have no opinion on or interest in Catalonian independence, but if you want to make a case against it, you'll need to try a different approach. It's neither surprising nor informative when ruling governments call independence movements criminal.
The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities.
So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause.
I have no opinion on or interest in Catalonian independence, but if you want to make a case against it, you'll need to try a different approach. It's neither surprising nor informative when ruling governments call independence movements criminal.
But professorTuring did not say a cause, he said "Catalonian cause".
You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not help them with their objective.
By the way, the ruling government has never called the independence movement criminal. It's perfectly legal to support independence, demonstrate, create, fund and promote independentist political parties, try to change laws to achieve self-determination... All that is perfectly legal in Spain. Disobeying court orders or mishandling public funds, however, it is not legal in Spain or any other country I know.
You ask for a different approach to make a case against Catalonian independence, but I do not think this is fair. The burden of proof is not on those who think they should not break the law, but in those who think they should. If you want to form an opinion by yourself I suggest you to try to find the reasons they have to want independence, from their own sources, but crosschecking any "historical facts" you find. If after that you think they have a legitimate reason to break the law, I'd like to hear it.
You are right in that promoting criminal activities can help a cause in very specific cases, but I don't think is relevant here. Gandhi, MLK, etc had legitimate reasons to break the law. Unless the Catalan independentist movement can convince the international community that they also have a legitimate reason, taking the law in their hands will not help them with their objective.
By the way, the ruling government has never called the independence movement criminal. It's perfectly legal to support independence, demonstrate, create, fund and promote independentist political parties, try to change laws to achieve self-determination... All that is perfectly legal in Spain. Disobeying court orders or mishandling public funds, however, it is not legal in Spain or any other country I know.
You ask for a different approach to make a case against Catalonian independence, but I do not think this is fair. The burden of proof is not on those who think they should not break the law, but in those who think they should. If you want to form an opinion by yourself I suggest you to try to find the reasons they have to want independence, from their own sources, but crosschecking any "historical facts" you find. If after that you think they have a legitimate reason to break the law, I'd like to hear it.
I think the burden of proof in the discussion here is on those advancing a position, but neither the allegations nor the evidence presented here are convincing.
As I said I have no particular knowledge of or interest in the cause, I'm just commenting on what I've read here. It seems to me that you and professorTuring would like to convince us, and if so, you should present stronger evidence of more serious crimes than disobeying the very government whose legitimacy the independence movement is challenging.
As I said I have no particular knowledge of or interest in the cause, I'm just commenting on what I've read here. It seems to me that you and professorTuring would like to convince us, and if so, you should present stronger evidence of more serious crimes than disobeying the very government whose legitimacy the independence movement is challenging.
I told you how you could make your own opinion based on sources from the independentist movement because I think that would be fairer than me trying to convince you, but I perfectly understand that you don't want to spend your whole day making a difficult research based on some vague indications so that you can agree with my comment.
Some of the evidence you ask for include the mishandling of public funds, use of personal data for their own benefit, or breaking the laws of their own regional government such that they could pass new laws without the required number of votes (because they only had a very tight majority). Plus disobeying court orders, which is something that I insist can only be accepted in very special circumstances and this is not one of them. I know these are not the most serious crimes in history by any means, that's why they will be on the street early next year.
But what I really hate about this is the image they spread of my country. I do not mind if you sympathize with their movement, or even actively support it, but I mind if you agree with their view of Spain as an authoritarian country just for not letting them to do whatever they want ignoring their own laws and a large portion of Catalan people. I do not mind if they want to fight for independence, even if I find it terribly stupid, but I do not like feeling insulted. And I constantly feel insulted by these people.
Some of the evidence you ask for include the mishandling of public funds, use of personal data for their own benefit, or breaking the laws of their own regional government such that they could pass new laws without the required number of votes (because they only had a very tight majority). Plus disobeying court orders, which is something that I insist can only be accepted in very special circumstances and this is not one of them. I know these are not the most serious crimes in history by any means, that's why they will be on the street early next year.
But what I really hate about this is the image they spread of my country. I do not mind if you sympathize with their movement, or even actively support it, but I mind if you agree with their view of Spain as an authoritarian country just for not letting them to do whatever they want ignoring their own laws and a large portion of Catalan people. I do not mind if they want to fight for independence, even if I find it terribly stupid, but I do not like feeling insulted. And I constantly feel insulted by these people.
> but I mind if you agree with their view of Spain as an authoritarian country
There's a very ugly side to Spain, just as there is a very ugly side to Japan, France, the USA, Russia, Australia (my own country) and, I'm sure, the Catalan independence movement too. There is an ugly side to any entity when it feels its power is threatened and when it tries to suppress people's freedoms in response.
Viewing this story from abroad and following it fairly well I have been disgusted and sickened by certain actions taken by the Spanish government, the corrupt Spanish judiciary, and the support shown by a percentage of the Spanish people for those acts. So yes, my view of Spain as an authoritarian country has strengthened based on real acts that have taken place. If you don't want people to form that view then you should be doing what is necessary in your country to call out that bad behaviour from your own side (presuming you are for the Spanish state remaining in its present form). That is the stance I take when I see my own country behaving badly. (It should also be the stance that Catalan independence supporters should take against any bad behaviour by their own movement too).
There's a very ugly side to Spain, just as there is a very ugly side to Japan, France, the USA, Russia, Australia (my own country) and, I'm sure, the Catalan independence movement too. There is an ugly side to any entity when it feels its power is threatened and when it tries to suppress people's freedoms in response.
Viewing this story from abroad and following it fairly well I have been disgusted and sickened by certain actions taken by the Spanish government, the corrupt Spanish judiciary, and the support shown by a percentage of the Spanish people for those acts. So yes, my view of Spain as an authoritarian country has strengthened based on real acts that have taken place. If you don't want people to form that view then you should be doing what is necessary in your country to call out that bad behaviour from your own side (presuming you are for the Spanish state remaining in its present form). That is the stance I take when I see my own country behaving badly. (It should also be the stance that Catalan independence supporters should take against any bad behaviour by their own movement too).
Yes. You are totally right. The ugly side of Spain is quite big and very ugly. We have to fight that. I have already written in other comments that I absolutely reject the violence of the police during the referendum, for example, and that all Spanish governments have made big mistakes with this topic. We need reforms in our justice and electoral systems. We have horrible politicians (Catalonia is not exception here). But Spain is not, by any definition I know, an authoritarian country.
Moreover, I think we have to condemn the governments, the institutions, the citizens with bad behavior (there are indeed many of them in both sides, and therefore obviously many more in the non-indpendentist side). But when they constantly talk about "Spain" as if it was something external to them and refer to it as some banana republic, I feel insulted.
I quite often see the same thing happening with the USA. Sometimes people do not criticize their administration, but they criticize the US, or "the Americans". I would understand if the US people complained about that. I would specially understand it if this criticism came from inside the US.
Moreover, I think we have to condemn the governments, the institutions, the citizens with bad behavior (there are indeed many of them in both sides, and therefore obviously many more in the non-indpendentist side). But when they constantly talk about "Spain" as if it was something external to them and refer to it as some banana republic, I feel insulted.
I quite often see the same thing happening with the USA. Sometimes people do not criticize their administration, but they criticize the US, or "the Americans". I would understand if the US people complained about that. I would specially understand it if this criticism came from inside the US.
OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out.
Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum.
Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist.
Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).
Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will twist Spain's arm. Here is where they are concentrating their efforts. They are trying this on many fronts, some legal (EU court in Strasbourg), but mostly by trying to keep the conflict in the front page of international media. This has worked partially (by damaging Spain's image abroad), but are still very far from their goals (UN resolution against Spain, EU warning, a big state or leader putting this on their agenda). Part of this is to commit illegal but not quite criminal acts, followed by an outcry and demonstrations when they invariably get banned by Spain. This "digital republic" is just one of many such acts. Spain is actually reacting with enormous restraint, given the propaganda disaster of past mistakes like the riot police during the illegal referendum.
Unless forced by the international community, Spain will never allow Catalonian independence, no matter how bad the internal situation, in my opinion. This is a matter of national interest for Spain, an existential threat, because it is one of the largest and richest regions, and because others would follow (at least the Basques), and Spain would just cease to exist.
Democracy is crucial, but, as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic. This is not a matter of human rights, or Spain being a fascist state, franquist, or a dictatorship. Spain has never been accused by other EU countries of being undemocratic or not respecting human rights (or, at least, not worse than other nations like France or USA).
Spain would just cease to exist.
Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and implements large wealth transfers from richer to poorer areas, so, the rest of Spain would end up being subsidised by Catalonia still.
If you care about Spain existing you should be campaigning for Spain to leave the EU, rather than being distracted by whether Catalonia does or does not possess whatever trivialities the EU leaves behind to member states as it grows.
Spain will cease to exist anyway given the trajectory of the EU. I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence. They seem to want to immediately turn around and (re)join the EU, which is rapidly taking over more and more areas of governmental policy. EU forbids different regions from being more "competitive" than others (see their demands to the UK) and implements large wealth transfers from richer to poorer areas, so, the rest of Spain would end up being subsidised by Catalonia still.
If you care about Spain existing you should be campaigning for Spain to leave the EU, rather than being distracted by whether Catalonia does or does not possess whatever trivialities the EU leaves behind to member states as it grows.
> I don't know why anyone in Spain seems to care about Catalonian independence.
I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone.
I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to close web sites, and I do not like to see Barcelona burning, and I do not like the hate I see in the eyes of the independentists when they talk about Spain, neither I like the hate I see in the eyes of some people when they talk about the Catalan independentists or even about Catalonia. And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?). We should be moving forward towards some kind of United States of Europe, and worrying about doing something with all these people from Africa who keep coming here, not about breaking apart and stupid flags. I get many questions from friends from all over the world, and I do not know how to answer them, I just feel shame. That's why I care. If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all.
By the way, you are right about what would happen if an independent Catalonia joint the EU. As a wealthy region, they would have to pay. However, why would the EU allow to join a wealthy country who just decided to break their own laws in order to not subsidize poorer regions?
I never cared, but I do care about the image they are projecting of my country (specially as someone living abroad). Moreover, they are doing great getting the worse of everyone.
I never liked nationalism (including Spanish nationalism) and now it's worse than ever. And I do not like anti-riot police, and I do not want my government to close web sites, and I do not like to see Barcelona burning, and I do not like the hate I see in the eyes of the independentists when they talk about Spain, neither I like the hate I see in the eyes of some people when they talk about the Catalan independentists or even about Catalonia. And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?). We should be moving forward towards some kind of United States of Europe, and worrying about doing something with all these people from Africa who keep coming here, not about breaking apart and stupid flags. I get many questions from friends from all over the world, and I do not know how to answer them, I just feel shame. That's why I care. If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all.
By the way, you are right about what would happen if an independent Catalonia joint the EU. As a wealthy region, they would have to pay. However, why would the EU allow to join a wealthy country who just decided to break their own laws in order to not subsidize poorer regions?
If tomorrow the Spanish state disappears and we just become one big European country, I would not mind at all.
I have unfortunate news for you.
People hating larger governmental forces that control them isn't something weirdly unique to Spain or European nations. It is a part of the universal human condition.
If all existing European nations were abolished and merged into a new EU "country", guess what? The "nationalists" would hate the EU instead. This already happens in fact. Why do you think Brexit won? It won because so many people really don't like the EU and the way it works. The entire British population was threatened by its own government with ruination and told anyone who voted Leave was thick and racist, and Leave still won. Imagine how much bigger the result would have been if the government hadn't relied on such aggressive tactics.
Worse still, people who think they aren't "nationalist" would also be filled with hate, but towards imaginary external enemies instead. Go listen to the people who run the EU. Listen to people like Juncker, Verhofstadt and Merkel. They can't stop talking about the EU empire and the threats posed by "China, Russia and the United States". The USA is rather different to China but to the new Europeans, it's just another foreign enemy.
The way to stop people hating on each other is to help them resolve their differences amicably. Lots of votes, lots of tiny nation-states or even city states, and yes lots of borders, ideally of the smartest possible type to ensure they're hardly noticeable. In the end, forcing everyone to comply with one small group's set of preferences will always create big tensions. The solution is thus not fewer countries, but more.
I have unfortunate news for you.
People hating larger governmental forces that control them isn't something weirdly unique to Spain or European nations. It is a part of the universal human condition.
If all existing European nations were abolished and merged into a new EU "country", guess what? The "nationalists" would hate the EU instead. This already happens in fact. Why do you think Brexit won? It won because so many people really don't like the EU and the way it works. The entire British population was threatened by its own government with ruination and told anyone who voted Leave was thick and racist, and Leave still won. Imagine how much bigger the result would have been if the government hadn't relied on such aggressive tactics.
Worse still, people who think they aren't "nationalist" would also be filled with hate, but towards imaginary external enemies instead. Go listen to the people who run the EU. Listen to people like Juncker, Verhofstadt and Merkel. They can't stop talking about the EU empire and the threats posed by "China, Russia and the United States". The USA is rather different to China but to the new Europeans, it's just another foreign enemy.
The way to stop people hating on each other is to help them resolve their differences amicably. Lots of votes, lots of tiny nation-states or even city states, and yes lots of borders, ideally of the smartest possible type to ensure they're hardly noticeable. In the end, forcing everyone to comply with one small group's set of preferences will always create big tensions. The solution is thus not fewer countries, but more.
That's an interesting point of view I cannot say I disagree with. I do not see big fundamental differences between many small countries working together with those smart borders you mention or some kind of big federal estate that gives a large autonomy to its members, but you are right that what you propose may work better in practice.
Either way, my point was that the reason I care is not the unity of Spain. You said you did not understand why anyone would care and I said why I do. You do not have to agree with me.
Either way, my point was that the reason I care is not the unity of Spain. You said you did not understand why anyone would care and I said why I do. You do not have to agree with me.
Yes, I understand, fair point.
> And I think I could accept all this if it was for a good reason, but I think it is just stupid nonsense (did we learn nothing from Brexit?).
It's not for you to decide that. If a majority of people in a region (yes, still to be conclusively shown for Catalonia) wish to have independence and their own self-government then they should have it. Otherwise you are promoting tyranny. You're like the husband who tells his wife that she is wrong for wanting a divorce because he's still happy with the marriage. Actually, the principle of indissoluble marriage has a lot in common with Section 2 of the Preliminary Title in the Spanish Constitution:
> The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation
Both principles of indissoluble unity - both in marriage and in the constitution of a state - are expressions of tyranny.
It's not for you to decide that. If a majority of people in a region (yes, still to be conclusively shown for Catalonia) wish to have independence and their own self-government then they should have it. Otherwise you are promoting tyranny. You're like the husband who tells his wife that she is wrong for wanting a divorce because he's still happy with the marriage. Actually, the principle of indissoluble marriage has a lot in common with Section 2 of the Preliminary Title in the Spanish Constitution:
> The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation
Both principles of indissoluble unity - both in marriage and in the constitution of a state - are expressions of tyranny.
When I say "this", I do not talk about the independence of Catalonia. I refer to everything I wrote in the previous paragraph that you have ignored to instead talk about divorces (a bad analogy, by the way).
They have created a problem that is directly affecting me, and only for their own benefit. And I am the tyrant here?
They have created a problem that is directly affecting me, and only for their own benefit. And I am the tyrant here?
I strongly disagree with your bleak view of the EU. Membership is actually one of Spain's biggest strengths, as are other alliances, like NATO.
Of course, there is a tradeoff here, members loose a degree of independence, and there are serious problems with the design of the Euro, laid bare by the financial crisis.
But one should also compare the current situation with the alternative, which would be european nations facing US, Russia and China on their own. Their bargainaing power and influence would be severely reduced, as the UK is about to find out.
I see this current trend against international alliances as part of the larger wave of populism and nationalism in the wake of the financial crisis, where people are looking for whom to blame, and the real culprits (crony capitalism) are too happy by the distraction: career polititians, and the rest of the world in the US (how else to explain Trump?), the EU in the UK, the West in Russia, and, more to the point, Spain in Catalonia.
Much of this talk of the EU being against its members' interests is Kremlin propaganda, given that much of Russia's weakness lies in the strength of western alliances, so it is in their interest to weaken or break them.
Of course, there is a tradeoff here, members loose a degree of independence, and there are serious problems with the design of the Euro, laid bare by the financial crisis.
But one should also compare the current situation with the alternative, which would be european nations facing US, Russia and China on their own. Their bargainaing power and influence would be severely reduced, as the UK is about to find out.
I see this current trend against international alliances as part of the larger wave of populism and nationalism in the wake of the financial crisis, where people are looking for whom to blame, and the real culprits (crony capitalism) are too happy by the distraction: career polititians, and the rest of the world in the US (how else to explain Trump?), the EU in the UK, the West in Russia, and, more to the point, Spain in Catalonia.
Much of this talk of the EU being against its members' interests is Kremlin propaganda, given that much of Russia's weakness lies in the strength of western alliances, so it is in their interest to weaken or break them.
Russia has a GDP smaller than Italy's. It's a threat only in the minds of a very particular segment of society that seeks to blame it anytime they lose an argument. "Kremlin propaganda" isn't responsible for Trump or Brexit and may well not exist at all, as every attempt to reveal it keeps disappearing into puffs of smoke. What exists are arguments Euro-federalists keep losing for reasons they can't understand, so they seek to blame shadowy conspiracies that are always just out of reach of proof.
This is visible in your own post! My view of the EU is neither bleak nor non-bleak. It's a simple factual statement of what the EU is and what it's becoming, as stated very clearly and repeatedly by the people who run it. The goal of the EU is to merge countries together.
Do you believe the EU is not a federalist project? That its goal is not to become a new country? How do you explain the ever growing power of the Commission, the new Army, the flag, the laws that make disrespecting the flag illegal, the continual push for ever more integration, the explicit talking points you repeat here that the EU must "unite" to "face US, Russia and China"?
The end state is not to lose a "degree" of independence, as you put it. It's to lose all independence completely. That is the end result of ever closer union, as the treaties word it, and that goal can be seen in the actions of the EU every day. It's not standing still. It's unifying armies, tax rules, trying to create new immigration law and so on, often without adjusting the treaties because they know that would trigger automatic referendums in some countries that they are guaranteed to lose.
Finally, the EU is not an alliance. Alliances are agreements between separate entities to support each other within some precisely defined scope, like military defence in case of invasion. The EU is something more: a movement to merge the separate entities together completely in all conceivable areas, until there's nothing left to be allied anymore because they're the same thing. Rejection of the EU is not a rejection of alliances, it's the opposite - it's a preference for alliances.
This is visible in your own post! My view of the EU is neither bleak nor non-bleak. It's a simple factual statement of what the EU is and what it's becoming, as stated very clearly and repeatedly by the people who run it. The goal of the EU is to merge countries together.
Do you believe the EU is not a federalist project? That its goal is not to become a new country? How do you explain the ever growing power of the Commission, the new Army, the flag, the laws that make disrespecting the flag illegal, the continual push for ever more integration, the explicit talking points you repeat here that the EU must "unite" to "face US, Russia and China"?
The end state is not to lose a "degree" of independence, as you put it. It's to lose all independence completely. That is the end result of ever closer union, as the treaties word it, and that goal can be seen in the actions of the EU every day. It's not standing still. It's unifying armies, tax rules, trying to create new immigration law and so on, often without adjusting the treaties because they know that would trigger automatic referendums in some countries that they are guaranteed to lose.
Finally, the EU is not an alliance. Alliances are agreements between separate entities to support each other within some precisely defined scope, like military defence in case of invasion. The EU is something more: a movement to merge the separate entities together completely in all conceivable areas, until there's nothing left to be allied anymore because they're the same thing. Rejection of the EU is not a rejection of alliances, it's the opposite - it's a preference for alliances.
Thanks for sharing your opinion and being open about your bias and reasoning. Thanks also for pointing out the power asymmetry, as this seems to be often left out from the equation and is IMHO a key point.
I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority.
If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust.
Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view.
And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.
I think we can analyze the same problem from many different points of view and depth, but ultimately for me it boils down to it being immoral for some groups of people to prevent other groups of people from attaining a status of equal --it implies superiority.
If the moral solution (embracing self-determination) poses an existential threat to a country (Spain in this case), I think the sensible thing to do is to explore possible solutions such as a gradual application of this right that allows everyone to adjust.
Anything else is just asserting the immoral superiority of a group of people over another, and if this legitimized as an existential need, this only strengthens the argument that independence is also an existential need. Because both sides could pull the argument of of "as with all complex problems, there are trade-offs to be made, one can't aim for absolute democracy at the expense of everything else, we should be careful with absolutes because they are not realistic" to justify any mains of attaining their goal. I think this is a very dangerous and destructive point of view.
And to clarify, I didn't mean to pontify about what's moral and what isn't. This is just my point of view, though I do think it's fair.
Thank you for your polite reply. You have a point, although I disagree that the pro-independence politians are acting morally. Spain, at pains to act within the bounds of legality, is held to much higher moral standards, and here is another assymetry, this one favourable to and constantly exploited by the independentists, who seem free from the constraints of legality.
What is shown in the international media is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't show the independentists' feeling of superiority (rather than equality). I have read the pro-independence media, and their reader's comments, in Catalonian, to get an unfiltered view of their thinking, and the difference with what they project internationally is glaring. The Catalonian constitution, approved by their parliament is spite of its illegality, which they plan to adopt in the case of independence, has severe restrictions on press freedom and judiciary independence, far less democratic than the current situation in Catalonia. They brand Spaniards from other regions living and working in Catalonia as "inmigrants"; Catalonians in other regions of Spain are treated there as equals.
Maybe I am too cynical and influenced by realpolitik, but I am afraid that real world politics works mostly according to interests (and power; rules are made according to these) rather than just morals (although these too are a factor when it comes to interests, as Machiavello said it is very important to hold the moral high ground). I find this approach unpleasant, but also think that it allows one to better understand how the world actually works, rather than how it should work (I am powerless to change the world, but at least I can try to understand it).
Democracy is often used by western governments and groups as a very powerful emotional propaganda tool (for the first time AFIK, in the first world war against the kaiser). I remember when Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded in the name of democracy. The real motives were never stated in the open, they never are, what matters is to create a narrative that the masses will buy; it is only possible to understand what happens by taking a global view and considering multiple factors (of course I don't claim that I do really understand, I just mistrust whatever is claimed by the media of both sides and suspect the real motives are often hidden).
Is my view destructive? What if allowing a referendum results in the collapse of Spanish cohesion, very likely. Wouldn't the resulting turmoil be more destructive that the status quo (which I admit is far from ideal, but IMHO the lesser evil)? This is what I mean by absolutes, I believe that one should approach complicated problems globally, rather than by optimizing for just for one local property, even if it's a noble one such as democracy or self-determination. Look at the Arab Spring, there are many lessons here.
I like Bertrand Russell's take on liberalism: a difficult balance between maximizing personal freedom while preserving social cohesion.
What is shown in the international media is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't show the independentists' feeling of superiority (rather than equality). I have read the pro-independence media, and their reader's comments, in Catalonian, to get an unfiltered view of their thinking, and the difference with what they project internationally is glaring. The Catalonian constitution, approved by their parliament is spite of its illegality, which they plan to adopt in the case of independence, has severe restrictions on press freedom and judiciary independence, far less democratic than the current situation in Catalonia. They brand Spaniards from other regions living and working in Catalonia as "inmigrants"; Catalonians in other regions of Spain are treated there as equals.
Maybe I am too cynical and influenced by realpolitik, but I am afraid that real world politics works mostly according to interests (and power; rules are made according to these) rather than just morals (although these too are a factor when it comes to interests, as Machiavello said it is very important to hold the moral high ground). I find this approach unpleasant, but also think that it allows one to better understand how the world actually works, rather than how it should work (I am powerless to change the world, but at least I can try to understand it).
Democracy is often used by western governments and groups as a very powerful emotional propaganda tool (for the first time AFIK, in the first world war against the kaiser). I remember when Iraq and Afghanistan were invaded in the name of democracy. The real motives were never stated in the open, they never are, what matters is to create a narrative that the masses will buy; it is only possible to understand what happens by taking a global view and considering multiple factors (of course I don't claim that I do really understand, I just mistrust whatever is claimed by the media of both sides and suspect the real motives are often hidden).
Is my view destructive? What if allowing a referendum results in the collapse of Spanish cohesion, very likely. Wouldn't the resulting turmoil be more destructive that the status quo (which I admit is far from ideal, but IMHO the lesser evil)? This is what I mean by absolutes, I believe that one should approach complicated problems globally, rather than by optimizing for just for one local property, even if it's a noble one such as democracy or self-determination. Look at the Arab Spring, there are many lessons here.
I like Bertrand Russell's take on liberalism: a difficult balance between maximizing personal freedom while preserving social cohesion.
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Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the EU?
Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective.
Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that.
Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that.
My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.
Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be altered --i.e., any region wants to secede-- is a decision that must involve every Spanish citizen. So in order to proceed, either everybody needs to participate in such a decision, or the Constitution needs to be amended. The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". That's against the Constitution, and the State needs to protect itself from that.
Anyway, if Catalonia would eventually and legally secede from Spain, it will be automatically out of the EU. And in order to gain access to the EU, it would need to apply and be approved unanimously by every EU country. In other words, Spain may veto that.
My opinion: it's shooting yourself on the feet. I believe they never intended to secede, they were just pushing this road hard to negotiate better financing and money for Catalonia. They have been doing this for many decades. But this time they took it too far, lost control of it, and now they don't know how to back track it.
> They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own.
All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.
All of them? That is ridiculous. It's a region that has maintained its own language since the founding of the modern Spanish state, they clearly have some cultural differences with their parent country.
So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity.
But this is not related to secession at all.
But this is not related to secession at all.
> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain.
A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs.
> But this is not related to secession at all.
The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...)
I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs.
> But this is not related to secession at all.
The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's all about wealth, which is what you asserted, is crazy. Plenty of secession movements move forward even though they are clearly financially self-defeating for the parties involved. (in my part of the world it's sometimes about Quebec...)
I don't have a dog in the fight but it's bothersome that you're trying to erase the reasons they are giving for wanting to secede. It's not helping anybody.
I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede.
Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.
> having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede.
Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible.
As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible.
As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
The Catalan language really was in risk during the dictatorship, but during democracy its status has constantly improved. Nowadays, Catalan is spoken by the majority of Catalonian people, taught in schools, used (even required) in public institutions... How is independence your only way to avoid that it disappears??? You are just telling lies.
I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
I like the different languages. I have lived in Spain and other countries where they have different languages, and I like that people make everything possible to conserve their languages and local dialects. And I think all this with my Spanish psyche, no less. But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
> But if I am talking with someone that can speak a language I speak, and this person insists using one I don't understand, I indeed find it impolite.
Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.
Sorry but this is a position of arrogance and entitlement. No-one is obliged to talk to you and if they don't want to do so in a language which has been forced upon their culture at the cost of the indigenous language then they are completely in the right to do so.
Sorry but I think that not doing what you can to facilitate communication with your interlocutor is impolite. Including not responding. Of course there is no obligation, but I'd find it impolite.
I travel a lot, I have lived in different countries. If everybody tried to impose their local languages to foreign people, this would be impossible. Languages are tools for communication, using them as signs of identity is the arrogant part.
By the way, calling Catalan an indigenous language is ridiculous.
I travel a lot, I have lived in different countries. If everybody tried to impose their local languages to foreign people, this would be impossible. Languages are tools for communication, using them as signs of identity is the arrogant part.
By the way, calling Catalan an indigenous language is ridiculous.
> The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.
In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
In your view, if the central government let Catalonia have independence in terms of language, including what children are taught in public schools and what appears in public forums and so on, would the independence movement come to an end?
I don't know, I just stated my personal reason for wanting independence, but I think it's not very representative.
Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters.
The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
Regarding your question, it seems to me that it's too late now. First, the spanish public opinion would not accept any kind of "concession" to Catalonia. Second, any such concession would likely be dismissed as insufficient by independence supporters.
The only realistic way out that I see is an escalation of the conflict until it becomes unsustainable economically for spain.
Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.
>A complete list would include the Basques
País Vasco = Basque Region
País Vasco = Basque Region
One thing to note here is that the Spanish government pushed heavily on favor of the interpretation that a region that splits from an EU member state also drops out of the EU. This is a calculated move to create a disincentive.
The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.
The flipside is that Spain was pushing for this when Scotland was holding its independence referendum. So the Scottish people were told that they would crash out of the EU if they voted for independence. Now they are forced to leave the EU because they voted against independence.
They could have gone the legal route, and push to amend the constitution first.
Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
Not doing so shows the manipulative/dishonest nature of the leaders.
I'm not sure what they thought that was going to happen, specially given that actual support for independence hardly ever tops 50%.
Your reply shows your manipulative and dishonest nature.
There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution.
- They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth
- They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen.
- They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
There are very good reasons why the Catalans would not go for a push to amend the constitution.
- They believe it's a lost cause, since they are heavily outnumbered and the rest of Spain would be insane to just accede to losing 30+% of their wealth
- They know that the government of Spain will never let this happen.
- They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
And your reply shows how selfish you are.
As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration.
Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration.
Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.
NB: The Scottish independence referendum did not allow the rest of the UK to vote. It was considered a matter for the Scots alone.
Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was.
Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.
Arguably this wasn't fair. Splitting a country in two affects everyone, so why couldn't everyone vote? But if the rest of the country could vote then there'd not have been even a tiny hope the SNP would have accepted the results. In fact, they did not accept that they lost anyway, even when voting was restricted to Scotland. But it's easy to understand why the referendum was designed the way it was.
Ironically it might be that these days the rest of the UK would kick Scotland out, if they were given a vote. It's not necessarily true that everyone cares about the Union.
The majority of the British Empire would not have supported the right of the American colonies to secede. Does that mean it was wrong of them to do so?
Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?
Should the Americans have instead pursued their cause in Parliament, where they were unrepresented?
The difference here is that Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, not a colony. They are perfectly well represented in every institution, and have in fact had a central role in most governments since the end of the dictatorship. Both situations are totally different. And, by the way, they did not only break Spanish laws in their road to independence, they also broke the rules of their own regional parliament, laws they had created.
I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.
> regardless of what others think about it
This is why it is selfish.
This is why it is selfish.
I agree. but I want to add that selfish doesn't mean wrong. Or even ethically wrong.
I don't know that it's obvious that the people outside of Catalonia should have a say in Catalonia's secession (which would mean it wouldn't matter what the majority of Spain wants, just the majority of Catalans)
Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession.
Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population. It seems unlikely to me that of the half that didn't vote, more than 90% are anti-secession.
Keep in mind, I don't live anywhere near the area, so I can't get a gut feeling that someone from there might be able to get.
It was an illegal, explicitly forbidden referendum that voted 90% for secession. That anyone even bothered to turn up, just to vote "no" is a small miracle. So, yeah, it seems very likely to me that >90% of those who didn't vote at all would have voted against.
For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession)
Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
Are voter turnouts normally that high in Spain?
The referendum was totally out of control. I will always condemn the violent response of the police that day, but the referendum was a total nonsense. You can easily find images of boxes left on the street and people "voting" without any control. And the counting (and whole organization) was done by those who wanted independence. You cannot trust those numbers.
There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.
There were regional elections on December 2017 and the independentist parties put together got 70 seats of 135 (less than the 72 they had before). More recently, in the elections for the national government this April, they only got 22 seats of 48 (some of the independentists refused to participate in Spanish elections after declaring independence, but turnout was still very high, more than 75%). The independentists never talk about these numbers, only the 90%. And I think that, many of them, seriously believe they are the 90%.
> Somewhere else in this thread someone mentioned that 90% the vote in Catalonia was 90% for secession, and included half the population.
That's a lie. The current catalonian separatist government got about 50% of the votes from the catalonian people. 90% of secession it's just not true.
That's a lie. The current catalonian separatist government got about 50% of the votes from the catalonian people. 90% of secession it's just not true.
To be honest, they voted the constitution in 1978, not that long ago
The choice at that time was military rule vs. constitution. What would you pick?
Sorry but that's not true. There was a compromise between all regions and parties, but military rule was never an option. In fact, they were discussing long for an agreement that would satisfy all parties (obviously not 100%, but that's why it's a compromise)
> - They do not accept the authority of the government of Spain, and therefore also not the constitution.
You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
You are right that they don't do, specially the authorities there. And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic. It cannot be tolerated. They are out of the law, and many have been convicted because of this. Every thing needs to be done under the law. And if you don't like it, within the law, you need to push to change it. It's the only way.
> And this is particularly concerning and completely anti democratic.
It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.
It is only anti democratic if you accept that this is the way the majority of your people want this. These people think that it's a tyrany. That's it's one laid upon them by an outside majority does not help.
The other regions of Spain are not so much Castile lovers as you think.
The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally".
Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome!
There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.
Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome!
There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.
Scottish can do a referendum by themselves because that's allowed by their laws, and goes back to historical reasons. In Spain, the Constitution does not allow for a part of Spain to decide secession. It's very different stories.
Catalonia isn't the richest region of Spain anymore. The separate identity emerges from a distinct latinic language--Catalan--, and a history of past independence.
The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.
The perceived lack of respect by Spanish authorities of Catalan culture is a major issue. The fact that militarized Spanish police--the "guardia civil"--ignore Catalan law (which is part of Spanish law) when it comes to e.g. the use of rubber bullets (forbidden in Catalonia) against demonstrators isn't helping. The judiciary branch not prosecuting these illegal acts only adds further tension. And the right-wing Spaniards displaying Franco-era national flags with the black eagle--illegal in Spain--in their demonstrations, all the while taking selfies with on-duty civil guards only comes to show that the Spanish institutions, judiciary, executive, legislative and the military have already taken sides, and will ignore their own law to preserve the unity of the territory, even if that means dismantling the democratic foundations of the state.
Just Spain not EU.
It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc.
Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war.
Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that.
Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language.
I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages
It's the typical second biggest city not having internal relevance compared to the capital even though it's as good, together with the common claim of everything happens in the capital, decisions are there, most money stays there, etc.
Also, it's slightly different culture, language, etc. And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war.
Discontent keeps happening, catalonian patriots gets in power, central government remembers that constitution prohibits secession, they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out), get arrested/exiled, with draws bigger attention to the cause, Streisand effect and all that.
Spain issn't really an united nation, you have actual separatist terrorists in Basque (which have a peace treaty recently), the new separatists of Catalonia, Andaluzia has seen the rise of dissidents as well. Add to the fact that some regions actually have their own language.
I remember one time while crossing the border by car, seeing a tourist information sign vandalized because in was written in Castillan (language of the capital, main "spanish" language). Beneath all the vandalous paint, was a sentence: "speak the <local-language>". And this was not in one of those more dissindent regions. Later I got into the city, and every sign was in multiple languages
> And around WW2 time, there was an actual civil war.
Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)
Not over the Catalonia issue, by any strecht. (Although Catalanists did take sides.)
> they do a referendum anyway, (90% win for getting out)
they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)
they do an illegal referendum so that 90% means nothing when many people didn't vote (obviously you are going to take a favorable result when only the people interested on it vote)
For more than 50% of the population to oppose secession, you'd need a voting turnout of ~90%, and for all the people who had not previously voted before to vote against secession. (50% turnout with 90% for secession -> 45% of voting population voting for secession)
If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too?
Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.
If you get 100% turnout, and no one who voted in the referendum changes their vote, you'd need 91% of the new voters to vote to remain a part of Spain. Is it truly that implausible that some of the "leave" voters would have stayed away from an illegal referendum too?
Assuming that the results of the illegal referendum were accurate of course.
Ok the catalans may be arrogant, but did something significantly change in recent years? Usually these bravado-led movements are a result of stagnant economy like in Italy.
Politicians have been leveraging this for years, using this division to their benefits. And these applies both to catalonian politicians using independence and blaming everything in Madrid, and national parties in Madrid demonizing Catalonia.
They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much.
From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians".
(I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)
They've been making a huge snowball of this, and it's starting to be too much.
From talking to some catalonian people, I think the last economic crisis, its management, and the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it, as it was easy for many to blame those on Madrid, on Spain, or "on the Castilians".
(I'm from Castilla but around half of my family emigrated to Barcelona a generation ago. I don't hate any catalonian who wants independence, they have that right; I'm sick of how both sides use FUD and hatred.)
> the corruption scandals in Partido Popular (the party that govered Spain from 2011 to 2018, but is always extremely irrelevant in Catalonia) had a lot to do with it
I understand they are the perfect enemy and have zero sympathy for them, and I agree with you this is the feeling of many people in Catalonia, but I find this argument very weak, taking into account that corruption scandals affected their regional government too (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25).
I understand they are the perfect enemy and have zero sympathy for them, and I agree with you this is the feeling of many people in Catalonia, but I find this argument very weak, taking into account that corruption scandals affected their regional government too (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_3%25).
Well, there was the global crisis, that Spain was affected.
Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity.
The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big, it's just with the rise of things like populism and patriotism, it's normal for these movements to rise as well, as they already existed. It was just short of some leaders, and opportunity.
The secession of Catalonia actually appeals to me, but these seems more manipulation by their charismatic leader than an actual resolve. They could do it slowly building the movement and trying to amend the constitution. No rush. Rushing was just trying to get more money which got over their heads as the support and reaction was bigger than expected.
> Besides that, I don't think that there was anything big
The economy is still fucked. Spain has an overall unemployment rate of roughly 15%, and over 30% unemployment of people under 25.
The economy is still fucked. Spain has an overall unemployment rate of roughly 15%, and over 30% unemployment of people under 25.
The Spanish economy is in the gutters. That probably doesn't help.
Sounds a lot like some of the protests in Southern India regarding economic input vs tax money spent and language difference.
And a sibling comment mentioned bull fighting and funnily exact thing has been an issue between a southern Indian state, the central govt and the judiciary.
And a sibling comment mentioned bull fighting and funnily exact thing has been an issue between a southern Indian state, the central govt and the judiciary.
At least some Catalan separatists feel Spain is denying them their own culture and forcing Spanish culture on them. Bull fighting, for example, is something Catalonia banned at some point, after which Madrid wanted to overturn the ban because they considered bull fighting Spanish cultural heritage.
Bull fighting was prohibited because it was originated in Spain (not the official reason though, just speculation). "Correbous" a very cruel sport as well, which it was originated in Catalunya, it's, in contrast, very much supported. So I'm not really sure it's two very different cultures.
Running away from restrained bulls is not the same as torturing and killing a bull for show.
Did you look for images? They torture the bulls by attaching burning items to their horns. Running away is the least significant part. It's a very cruel activity that end up with a lot of dead bulls.
BTW, I also hate bull fighting.
BTW, I also hate bull fighting.
Apart from the animal abuse issue (which is also what I care most about), it's also a cultural issue. If Catalans consider bull running to be Catalan heritage, but not bull fighting, they might allow the former and ban the latter. But Spain considers both Spanish cultural heritage, so wants both to be allowed anywhere in Spain.
> why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain?
I won't actually answer the question (it's complex, and others have done so already). I just want to make sure people understand that we don't really know what "Catalonia" wants because no real referendum has taken place.
Catalonia is a heterogeneous society that has attracted lots of immigration from poorer regions of Spain over the last decades, and claiming that "Catalans" want independence without doubt can only be done by adopting a dangerously ethnocentric meaning of "Catalan".
If you look at regional elections, separatist parties have consistently achieved less than 50% of the votes, even when posed as "plesbicitary" [1] on the issue. They've only managed to form governments because, as it's often the case, the electoral system over-represents rural areas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election
I won't actually answer the question (it's complex, and others have done so already). I just want to make sure people understand that we don't really know what "Catalonia" wants because no real referendum has taken place.
Catalonia is a heterogeneous society that has attracted lots of immigration from poorer regions of Spain over the last decades, and claiming that "Catalans" want independence without doubt can only be done by adopting a dangerously ethnocentric meaning of "Catalan".
If you look at regional elections, separatist parties have consistently achieved less than 50% of the votes, even when posed as "plesbicitary" [1] on the issue. They've only managed to form governments because, as it's often the case, the electoral system over-represents rural areas.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Catalan_regional_election
Why doesn't Spain just give them more autonomy? Or is Spain actually the "bad guys" here ?
Spain is one of the most decentralised countries in the world. Catalan government (not all catalans by the way, around 50%), at this point, only want independence.
Catalans voted in a referendum a new regional constitution which was overturned by the Spanish constitutional court. This triggered support for independence. Catalans don't manage, their taxes, nor their airports, or their trains. Everything that really matters is managed by the central government, it's self-rule on paper but not in reality.
There is little more autonomy to be given and still be part of Spain (although it's a matter of perspective)
There is some info on the wikipedia page for Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions
There is some info on the wikipedia page for Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Administrative_divisions
Because Spain is currently one of the more decentralized country in the world?
Spain created the "autonomias" in order to appease secessionists.
Not a brilliant idea given them the control of the Education(that teaches them that Spain robs them and creates fiction about their past, all while rejecting Spanish), of the Police(so their friends could close roads without consequences), put levies to shops that used Spanish in their signs and tracks and harass those kids that use Spanish in School's recess.
BTW, the secessionist want to own Catalonia, but it feels too less to them, they also want Valencia and the Balearic Islands. And if you let them a big part of Aragón.
Spain created the "autonomias" in order to appease secessionists.
Not a brilliant idea given them the control of the Education(that teaches them that Spain robs them and creates fiction about their past, all while rejecting Spanish), of the Police(so their friends could close roads without consequences), put levies to shops that used Spanish in their signs and tracks and harass those kids that use Spanish in School's recess.
BTW, the secessionist want to own Catalonia, but it feels too less to them, they also want Valencia and the Balearic Islands. And if you let them a big part of Aragón.
Here's an explanation of the reasons. http://www.cataloniavotes.eu/en/background/why-a-vote/
An explanation from one of the sides. There are many things in that text that could be discussed. For example, the "attacks against the education system and linguistic rights". I dare you to explain that in detail.
Ignoring the Catalan issue specifically: the members of the EU are themselves states so would be unhappy with the precedent of any of the other states breaking apart as it might set a precedent.
Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not).
I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.
Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not).
I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.
It would also enhance gridlock within various EU bodies and structures that require unanimous approval of all member states. (One of the issues they've had to manage with the several Brexit extensions is how to make sure the UK doesn't make it impossible for EU institutions to run by deciding to veto things.)
It's best for the EU to not have two member states with a major, fundamental dispute about sovereignty.
And of course, due to the aforementioned rules about unanimity, if Catalonia were to obtain independence their admission to the EU would be entirely dependent on Spain's acquiescence.
It's best for the EU to not have two member states with a major, fundamental dispute about sovereignty.
And of course, due to the aforementioned rules about unanimity, if Catalonia were to obtain independence their admission to the EU would be entirely dependent on Spain's acquiescence.
Wikipedia and this BBC article cover the background behind the movement and the potential relationship between an independent Catalonia and the EU (in particular, Spain as an EU member would need to agree to Catalonia entering the EU)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement
- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement
- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41474674
An interesting issue in the eventual independence of Catalonia is that, by law, Spanish citizens remain Spanish even if they are also citizens of another country. Therefore Catalans would not lose their Spanish passports, and would be therefore EU members, even if Catalonia was independent from Spain. And the children of Spanish citizens are by law also Spanish citizens. The strange case of a non-EU nation with 100% EU citizens in it would be an interesting development in geopolitics.
> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
Afaics, they’re not trying to break away from the EU (which wouldn’t make any sense economically), but that may be an unintended side effect. Spain would have to agree to opening talks between a new sovereign country and the eu. I just can’t see that happen.
Afaics, they’re not trying to break away from the EU (which wouldn’t make any sense economically), but that may be an unintended side effect. Spain would have to agree to opening talks between a new sovereign country and the eu. I just can’t see that happen.
It's something similar to north/south Italy: they are tired of sharing their monies with the poorer regions of Spain, which they regard as lazy and stupid.
Being an Italian living in Catalonia for a few years now I absolutely say that it's not the same at all.
While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
While money is an important factor (obviously) it's framed in completely different manner: former italian Lega Nord independentism is based on feeling/being superior on both the work & money side. And in fact Lega (Nord) was and it's still a right-wing, racist and xenophobic party. OTOH the independentist parties in Catalonia were basically left-wing (and now they cover almost all of the spectrum), and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs". Having said that, there are obviously Catalans on the pro-independence side that can just be Lega Nord supporters. But the funny thing is that there are lots of Spaniards/Catalans against independence that can be Lega Nord supporters as well.
>and the economic side is more on the "we get +50% of our money out and what comes back cannot even cover the most basic needs"
Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
Then imagine how it is for the poor regions of Spain.
But Catalonia would still help them via European Union. And in general money is not that relevant on this topic, at least on the catalan side, as it was just a few years ago.
Unfortunately I have to say it's not 100% true. The real independence movement was started from the right, look for "Artur Mas". The main slogan back then was "Spain steal from us". It's true though that Communists parties always wanted the independence, but the right parties have driven this process from the very beginning.
Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict.
In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.
Lega Nord supports openly the independence of Catalunya because they are based on the same principles. Sure, there're differences, but the main idea is that they don't want to support poorer regions. Obviously they are not going to tell you that, but that's what originated the conflict.
In fact, some people in Catalunya (obviously a minority) were openly racist with other regions in Spain years ago (e.g., Extremadura, Andalucia), they even made ads in newspapers. Of course, this is not something that's really talked about.
What? ERC predates Artur Mas by almost a century. And Artur Mas and his party became "independentists" because there were already lots of real people already pro independence, aiming at their votes. Not the other way round.
I'd say that there's a huge number of independentists nowadays despite Artur Mas (and Jordi Pujol)
I think a big part of it is the history of the Franco dictatorship and its persecution of Catalonian culture and people. That kind of thing leaves a scar.
IIRC they are one of the richer parts of Spain, which is why their move for independence has been likened to that of the late Lega Nord in Italy.
>Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
I believe the plan is to enter the EU after breaking from Spain.
I believe the plan is to enter the EU after breaking from Spain.
Which it's very much impossible without agreement.
> Or is Catalonia trying to break from both Spain and the EU?
Short answer: no, just from Spain.
Long answer: while the biggest part of the movement is pro-Europe there are voices from the left-most & anti-capitalist part which are against EU because they see as an union that put money first instead of people. But as said, they are a minority among the independentists.
Short answer: no, just from Spain.
Long answer: while the biggest part of the movement is pro-Europe there are voices from the left-most & anti-capitalist part which are against EU because they see as an union that put money first instead of people. But as said, they are a minority among the independentists.
Catalonia and Basque country are the most developed places in Spain, from an industrial point of view.
Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire.
For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans.
After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism.
Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba.
The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century.
In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail.
In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero).
That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge.
This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them.
This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony.
After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain.
When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time).
In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions.
At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them.
Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people.
Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades.
Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time.
That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt.
If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time.
Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old.
They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages.
The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.
Historically there were the biggest supporters of Spain, specially in the times of the Empire.
For example Cuba was controlled mostly by Catalans.
After losing Cuba and Philippines there were lots of social unrest in Spain, and specially Catalonia. Lots of people moving into cities. It was the time of romanticism, nationalism, communism and anarchism.
Catalonia had lots of anarchist combined with a rich bourgeoisie that had repatriated a fair amount of the wealth from Cuba.
The rich bourgeoisie wanted more autonomy so they could be richer and not share their wealth with less developed parts of Spain,(while preserving the market to continue selling to them) like Andalusia and Extremadura, that were extremely poor at the start of 20th century.
In 1934 they supported a secessionist movement to declare independence of Spain trying to take advantage of the communist movement to declare Spain a dictatorship of the proletariat that only got traction in the north of Spain, in Asturias. Those that took part of the movement went to jail.
In 1936 the left coalition of Frente popular, that included communist and anarchist wins the elections, and make an amnesty freeing all the people from the 1934 coup. They start burning churches, raping nuns, and killing people (more than 700 in over 7000 incidents). The gobertment does nothing, because they are sympathetic to them, or they just want revolution coming(like Largo Caballero).
That leads to the revolt of the army and the start of the Spanish civil war. In Catalonia the supporter of the secessionist movement in 1934, Companys, is in charge.
This led to terror in Catalonia, in which the religious people were exterminated, something that Companys was specially proud of and made the bourgeoisie specially afraid as the anarchists went after them.
This made bourgeoisie later one of the biggest supporters of Franco, the irony.
After Franco won the war there was a very centralized State in Spain.
When Franco died, they decided to give autonomy to all the provinces in order to appease the nationalist(they did not supported Independence openly at the time).
In Catalonia secessionist were a minority at the time. Most people wanted more autonomy(who doesn't). The man who controlled Catalonia, an extremely corrupt person called Pujol was very secessionist and started creating a network of secessionist in all local public institutions.
At the time the Spanish gobertment of Felipe Gonzalez was also very corrupt, and the King of Spain(that pocketed deals commissions of energy deals with Saudi Arabia). They knew each other and made sure that Justice did not act upon them.
Controlling the education, local TV, and most of the economic system in Catalonia make more people become secessionist, specially young people.
Now it has become clear that Pujol was a tremendous corrupt person and Justice went after them, the guys that pocketed from 3% to 10% of all public money in Catalonia for decades.
Catalonia and Andalucia had been extremely corrupt for a long time.
That(most people getting to know the corruption) destroyed the nationalist party in the elections and made them what we call "flee fordward" with independence, even when there are not enough people yet for it to success without a doubt.
If they get independence, with their own justice system, they will be able to continue doing what they have been doing for a long time.
Right now most supporters of it are kids, 14, 16 years old and people under 30 years old.
They had been promised that they will be like Switzerland rich, part of the EU of course, with all the advantages they have today for being part of Spain(like exporting 70% of their products there)without all the disadvantages.
The EU has said that an independent Catalonia will not enter the EU.
As it would take hours to complete the above view with references that support (e.g. Pujol's corruption) and reject (e.g. what motivated Franco's coup d'etat), I would like to notify any readers of the above post that it cannot be taken at face value, as it is a highly selective, and in some points plain wrong, reading of the last 200 years of Spanish history.
They want their own Football team.
The article isn't going deep enough in the details.
> In summer 2018, Puigneró said Catalonia must create "a digital nation in the form of a republic" ahead of implementing the Catalan Republic in "physical form."
By allowing Catalonian citizens or Catalonian administration to host data outside the EU ? How does that create a digital nation when your limbs are all over the world in an ethereal form ? I don't understand what's going on.
> In summer 2018, Puigneró said Catalonia must create "a digital nation in the form of a republic" ahead of implementing the Catalan Republic in "physical form."
By allowing Catalonian citizens or Catalonian administration to host data outside the EU ? How does that create a digital nation when your limbs are all over the world in an ethereal form ? I don't understand what's going on.
It's not about where the data are, but which organization is hosting them and for what purpose.
If one wanted to make a "digital freedonia" they could start a service called "freedonia citizens registry" for example, and have people register there, coordinate, talk, etc -- whether the server was in Japan or Argentina or California wouldn't matter much for those purposes...
The "host outside" part is so that the Spanish government can't just get access to it or storm the datacenter.
Otherwise the location is not important as to the purpose.
If one wanted to make a "digital freedonia" they could start a service called "freedonia citizens registry" for example, and have people register there, coordinate, talk, etc -- whether the server was in Japan or Argentina or California wouldn't matter much for those purposes...
The "host outside" part is so that the Spanish government can't just get access to it or storm the datacenter.
Otherwise the location is not important as to the purpose.
The location is important if it involves data from the public administration. Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.
>Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.
What's stopping them? (besides a jurisdiction they don't recognize and want to secede from)?
What's stopping them? (besides a jurisdiction they don't recognize and want to secede from)?
Presumably they d need a way to verifiably conduct elections online. If they could show that they were fair and inclusive, i think it s fair to say that the people have spoken and ancillary constitutional contracts don’t last forever
You're right that the article is lacking. I suspect the idea is to have digital infrastructure out of legal reach of the Spanish government - then that's your foundation for the physical changes.
The aggressive attitude towards Catalan separatism by the Spanish government seems that it will make independence inevitable...
What is aggressive about not allowing official data to be stored in foreign servers? I wonder if, for example, the US would allow the government of Oregon to store official data about their citizens in Russian servers they cannot access.
The Spanish governments (current and previous ones) have made many mistakes, and taken measures that can be discussed and even plainly rejected, but this one seems quite reasonable to me.
The Spanish governments (current and previous ones) have made many mistakes, and taken measures that can be discussed and even plainly rejected, but this one seems quite reasonable to me.
To be honest, I think we already are in a point of no-return. Not necessarily to the independence though, but who knows...
What's the alternative to independence if they cannot return to the status quo?
I think a new Constitution is the only solution. It could be possible to reform the Spanish State to make it federal or confederal and hopefully this would be accepted by all the political forces involved. However, this new Constitution would have to be voted by all of Spanish citizens in a referendum, not only the Catalans.
Civil war.
yeah, either that or splitting the region in two parts. Who knows, it's a very difficult situation at the moment.
What will they expect of a state defending itself and trying to keep its integrity?
The Spanish constitution says that the country includes Catalonia and that the State must defend the country integrity.
Modify the constitution by democracy if you don't like it, but stop promoting undemocratic and unconstitutional ideas.
The Spanish constitution says that the country includes Catalonia and that the State must defend the country integrity.
Modify the constitution by democracy if you don't like it, but stop promoting undemocratic and unconstitutional ideas.
Well, how about acting like a civilized European state going about it, including respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights? The recent developments look very bad, and the Spanish state seems to be engaging in blatant abuse of their anti-terrorism laws.
> respecting the freedoms of speech and assembly as fundamental rights
When hasn't this been the case? I see the Catalonian independentists speaking and assembling the whole time. However, blocking airports and train stations, for example, is not a fundamental right.
When hasn't this been the case? I see the Catalonian independentists speaking and assembling the whole time. However, blocking airports and train stations, for example, is not a fundamental right.
How about starting respecting the laws by the Catalonian government?
The Spanish government allowed right to assembly and free of speech, otherwise there wouldn't be any demonstration...
The Spanish government allowed right to assembly and free of speech, otherwise there wouldn't be any demonstration...
I was interested in this because I remember there being work to get a mesh network using ipfs or something running in Catalonia. But the article mentions nothing about it. Anyone knows if that is still ongoing? Found something from 10 months ago about it here on HN. Would think that would only have gotten more relevant these days. And if it is blocking they are worried about...
Are you thinking of guifi?
Separatist movements in Spain are dangerous for the entirety of Europe. The world is much less stable nowadays and the last thing you'd want is an armed civil-war like conflict in the heart of Europe. But i'm a Turk that grew up watching news of my fellow citizens killed by separatists on the TV so maybe i'm a little bit more sensitive to this issue.
You are not wrong. In fact, there're some suspicious that third countries support independence movements directly or indirectly. If you think about it, nowadays it's far easier to break a country from inside than starting a war.
Balkanization isn't helping anyone, won't help Spain or Catalonians either. The problem relies within our changing political identity. It used to be religion based for so long, which was splintering alright but still was more unifying than nationalism. Now people of any ethnic identity demands a land for it and third parties sponsor them for their own interests. How reasonable is that? It just causes more geopolitical chaos and resource bottlenecks. EU and the USA isn't faring too well with multiculturalism either so our civilization is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The idea of "digital republic" is fascinating. Politically it may be controversial, but technically it deserves further study. As the world shifts to the nomadic, post-industrial, cloud-based societies, countries like Estonia with e-residency may become popular for people to opt-in to join countries with the best social compact.
Yes it is! And definitely we will see more of these in the future and the challenges they bring to the table.
Said that, it is a bureaucracy nightmare. Just imagine working as a X citizen for a Y enterprise living in the Z country. Globalization at its best!
Said that, it is a bureaucracy nightmare. Just imagine working as a X citizen for a Y enterprise living in the Z country. Globalization at its best!
BTW Spain doesn’t have a “president” as the article says — Pedro Sánchez is the acting prime minister. Spain is a monarchy.
I assume this is a translation error.
I assume this is a translation error.
In Spain, Pedro Sánchez is the president of the government, we do not have a prime minister. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_(government_title)
Thanks! I think it's an unorthodox enough usage in English that IMHO the article should have had a clarification.
Actually I would have preferred that the article should have used the "English" term (as it does with, say, President of China) but such procedure is highly inconsistent. Merkel is referred to as "Chancellor", which is literally the English version of for Kanzler though in English "Chancellor" now means something quite different). Likewise the President of Iran is called President even though there is an executive agent above him/her (less powerful than the Spanish President).
Actually I would have preferred that the article should have used the "English" term (as it does with, say, President of China) but such procedure is highly inconsistent. Merkel is referred to as "Chancellor", which is literally the English version of for Kanzler though in English "Chancellor" now means something quite different). Likewise the President of Iran is called President even though there is an executive agent above him/her (less powerful than the Spanish President).
In your defense, I would bet that changing "president of Spain" to "president of the government of Spain" has been one of the most common corrections not only for foreign journalists, but also Spanish ones.
Well I didn't know that we were going to link straight up propaganda here in HN. I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT.
For those who didn't know this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency
It has very close ties with Carles Puigdemont, which has been his director once.
For those who didn't know this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_News_Agency
It has very close ties with Carles Puigdemont, which has been his director once.
If you think something in the article is factually wrong, it would be kind to let us know. News should be judged by their content, and not by the messenger.
OP here. For what it's worth, I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so the last thing I would want is to unwittingly spread pro-independence propaganda. I am aware of what you said, but it was the only article in English that I could find about this news. I shared this link because I am interested in the debate it might spawn here rather than because of its content.
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>I wonder how much time until we bring Sputnik and RT.
1248 points Cyberattacks in 12 Nations Said to Use Leaked N.S.A. Hacking Tool https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/world/europe/uk-national-health-service-cyberattack.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=1&referer=https://www.rt.com/news/388153-thousands-ransomeware-attacks-worldwide/
848 points Meteorite crash in Russia http://rt.com/news/meteorite-crash-urals-chelyabinsk-283/
534 points Stanislav Petrov, a Soviet officer who averted nuclear war, has died https://www.rt.com/news/403625-nuclear-soviet-officer-died/
515 points Bolivia to file UN complaint over airspace blockade http://rt.com/news/bolivia-un-complaint-plane-601/
505 points Snowden granted 1-year asylum in Russia, leaves airport http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-papers-russia-902/
395 points Snowden asylum still under review, stays in airport for now http://rt.com/news/snowden-entry-airport-asylum-521/
371 points 'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-spying-e-mail-citizens-178/
360 points Anonymous takes down Department of Justice and Universal Music http://rt.com/usa/news/anonymous-doj-universal-sopa-235/
320 points WikiLeaks wins case against Visa https://rt.com/news/wikileaks-visa-court-case-040/
306 points Stallman: Facebook is Mass Surveillance https://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/
289 points Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker http://rt.com/usa/news/swartz-prosecutor-suicide-hacker-050/
288 points Microsoft helped the NSA bypass encryption, new Snowden leak reveals http://rt.com/usa/microsoft-nsa-snowden-leak-971/
272 points Obama wins back the right to indefinitely detain under NDAA http://rt.com/usa/obama-ndaa-appeal-suit-229/
270 points Man-made super flu could kill half of humanity http://rt.com/news/bird-flu-killer-strain-119/
247 points Small Utah ISP firm stands up to surveillance state http://rt.com/usa/utah-isp-surveillance-state-corporations-925/
245 points ‘99.99 percent air’: Boeing releases video of revolutionary lightweight metal https://www.rt.com/news/318280-super-light-air-metal/
241 points ‘America has no functioning democracy at this moment’ – Jimmy Carter on NSA http://rt.com/usa/carter-comment-nsa-snowden-261/
229 points Twitter’s multi-million dollar US election pitch to RT https://www.rt.com/news/407919-twitter-multi-million-offer-rt/
178 points FBI admits to flying drones over US without warrants http://rt.com/usa/fbi-drones-over-usa-653/
175 points Russia may deem civil servants’ use of Gmail, Facebook ‘high treason’ http://rt.com/politics/gmail-facebook-treason-high-521/
153 points Microsoft wins federal appeal over warrants for data held outside US https://www.rt.com/usa/351052-microsoft-emails-ireland-server/
152 points Hundreds march in Singapore against website licensing regime http://rt.com/news/singapore-website-protest-bloggers-419/
151 points Steve Wozniak: Internet should not have gatekeepers or regulators http://rt.com/usa/news/wozniak-interview-dotcom-freedom-396/
132 points Russia wont extradite Snowden to US Kremlin http://rt.com/news/snowden-russia-extradite-us-634/
129 points Death of Yuri Gagarin demystified 40 years on http://rt.com/news/gagarin-death-truth-revealed-674/
128 points Google will ‘de-rank’ RT articles to make them harder to find – Eric Schmidt https://www.rt.com/news/410444-google-alphabet-derank-rt/
123 points Ecuador has received asylum request from NSA leaker Snowden http://rt.com/news/ecuador-asylum-request-snowden-135/
106 points Sen. Wyden imagines the White House is willing to reconsider surveillance http://rt.com/usa/nsa-surveillance-wyden-snowden-021/
103 points Appeals court rules journalists cant keep their sources secret http://rt.com/usa/nyt-risen-leak-espionage-336/
90 points Sorry is not enough: Bolivia demands EU find culprits behind aerial hijack http://rt.com/news/bolivia-eu-apologies-not-enough-202/
89 points RMS on evil developers, spying social networks, the legitimacy of Anonymous http://rt.com/news/richard-stallman-free-software-875/
85 points Russia promises legal action over NSA surveillance scandal http://rt.com/politics/internet-surveillance-western-prevent-928/
80 points Richard Stallman: Snowden leak a chance for privacy [video] http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/snowden-leak-privacy-surveillance-093/
80 points FBI releases documents that confirm they proactively spy on anarchists https://rt.com/usa/news/fbi-plante-anarchists-jury-983/
77 points US 'disappointed' with Hong Kong, asks Latin American countries to stop Snowden http://rt.com/news/snowden-us-disappointed-hong-kong-139/
72 points Moscow-Cuba flight skirts US airspace, prompts speculation Snowden is aboard http://rt.com/news/snowden-plane-route-cuba-965/
72 points Anti-corruption blogger Navalny sentenced to 5 years behind bars http://rt.com/news/navalny-verdict-court-guilty-234/
70 points Scientists successfully test ‘biological supercomputer’ performing complex tasks https://www.rt.com/news/333912-biocomputers-perform-complex-calculations/
68 points Nobody ‘stealing’ your jobs, you spend too much on wars, Jack Ma tells US https://www.rt.com/business/374289-alibaba-us-jobs-military/
66 points California man faces 13 years in jail for scribbling anti-bank messages in chalk http://rt.com/usa/california-man-13-prison-banks-237/Translation: Spain will enforce the law that says that citizen data must be kept in servers in the EU instead of digital havens, which is what the Catalan government is doing.
>Spain will enforce the law
Spain will create that law
Spain will create that law
Which strikes me as odd, because I recall there is a European law that says that personal data of European citizens must remain within the EU.
Check with a lawyer for details, but the best way to describe it is the EU can do little about data once it is outside of the EU: their laws don't apply elsewhere. They have ways around this.
If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which makes most companies not transmit data outside the EU if at all possible).
None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.
If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which makes most companies not transmit data outside the EU if at all possible).
None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.
> None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that.
Not at all. The problem here is that the Catalan government took advantage of their power position and used official data to fill the database of this "digital republic". This is precisely what this law disallows. They can still hold servers where citizens enter their own data.
Not at all. The problem here is that the Catalan government took advantage of their power position and used official data to fill the database of this "digital republic". This is precisely what this law disallows. They can still hold servers where citizens enter their own data.
I stand corrected
No - the GDPR regulates transfers of EU citizen data outside of the EU, but it by no means prohibits it. To summarise - the organisation involved follows the rules by transferring data only to other countries that have equivalently strong laws, or for other countries, by using Binding Corporate Rules or approved standard contractual conditions to establish internal corporate policy that meets EU standards.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
No.
So, will Streisand Effect manifest? I think it already is.
I presume the secessionists are actually a minority. The effect is already in full force
> I presume the secessionists are actually a minority.
I've got a colleague in Catalonia. At the time of the referendum, he was working here in the UK, and he went back to vote in the attempted referendum; and he participated in the general strike a few weeks ago after the sentencing of the leaders who ran the referendum.
He's a level-headed, laid-back kind of guy, not at all the type that gets worked up and inflamed over trifles. If he's upset enough at Madrid to participate in this, I think Madrid are the bad guys here. I don't think he necessarily wants to secede per se, but from his perspective they've basically tried everything else.
I've got a colleague in Catalonia. At the time of the referendum, he was working here in the UK, and he went back to vote in the attempted referendum; and he participated in the general strike a few weeks ago after the sentencing of the leaders who ran the referendum.
He's a level-headed, laid-back kind of guy, not at all the type that gets worked up and inflamed over trifles. If he's upset enough at Madrid to participate in this, I think Madrid are the bad guys here. I don't think he necessarily wants to secede per se, but from his perspective they've basically tried everything else.
90% win on a referendum that less than half population attended has it was deemed has an unlawful referendum.
But it was still over 90% result.
But it was still over 90% result.
Are there actual polls on the ground? The referendum was obviously biased. If things were not so heated, a non-binding referendum might be the right choice , but this is not going to happen
I don't know how some Catalonian citizens are letting themselves be influenced by some corrupt politicians trying to enrich theirselves and avoid prison.
Check out democracy index in Spain (ranked 19th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index that is a better score than France, USA, Japan...
For people outside Spain, don't let yourself be fooled by the name of this group. There is nothing democratic in "tsunami democratic".