Cook: ‘China Hasn’t Pressured Us’(daringfireball.net)
daringfireball.net
Cook: ‘China Hasn’t Pressured Us’
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2019/11/21/cook-china-pressure
60 comments
Isn't this what they call the Chilling Effect?
Yes, and it's accompanied by the Gas Lighting effect, as demonstrated here.
Nah, that's due to the Apple Effect. Apple has for a long time performed and perfected the "Gas Lighting effect", including issues unrelated to China.
"You're holding it wrong", "Our butterfly keyboards are perfectly fine", "The iOS update does not slow down our older models"...
Other companies screw up, cheat and sometimes even lie, but Apple and a section of its fanboys repeatedly gaslight - even on small faults.
"You're holding it wrong", "Our butterfly keyboards are perfectly fine", "The iOS update does not slow down our older models"...
Other companies screw up, cheat and sometimes even lie, but Apple and a section of its fanboys repeatedly gaslight - even on small faults.
> it's "Apple Effect" not "Gas Lighting Effect"
Well, Apple does have a knack of taking established conventions and technologies and then rebranding them with their Apple logo and marketing fairy dust.
As your point states, it's quite effective xD
Well, Apple does have a knack of taking established conventions and technologies and then rebranding them with their Apple logo and marketing fairy dust.
As your point states, it's quite effective xD
Or in the old time, we used to call it Apple's "reality distortion field". Useful for googling similar issues from around the original iPhone time.
I have no problem with Apple if they had chosen to censor at the request of Chinese Government. At least I understand that is part of business in China. And they can remain silent on the issue. ( I do wish they stand up against CCP, but that is another issue )
What irritates me most from Tim Cook's Apple, is that he and Apple now pretends to be good and caring, and yet their actions shows the opposite.
Whenever Tim Cook come on to the stage and said things like our customer loves the Mac, ( Not anymore) And they cares about their customers. ( Nothing in the past few years shows they do until Customers are fed up and leaving ) Many have been crying for years before they listen and get a new design with new keyboard.
Steve doesn't admit it when there is a problem. But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly, often within a shortened one cycle of product refresh. Magic Mouse, MacBook Air's USB port... etc
And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies, ( or lies that is external of Apple, anything internal he could be completely making things up to his wishes ). He does put a spin and deceptions into words.
But this is not the first time we caught Tim Cook lying. From the Qualcomm case to the HK Protestor Apps ( Which isn't even used for illegal gathering, but getting away from unlimited use of Made in China's Toxic Tear gas ), to China's censorship.
I agree with Gruber, this is just cowardice.
What irritates me most from Tim Cook's Apple, is that he and Apple now pretends to be good and caring, and yet their actions shows the opposite.
Whenever Tim Cook come on to the stage and said things like our customer loves the Mac, ( Not anymore) And they cares about their customers. ( Nothing in the past few years shows they do until Customers are fed up and leaving ) Many have been crying for years before they listen and get a new design with new keyboard.
Steve doesn't admit it when there is a problem. But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly, often within a shortened one cycle of product refresh. Magic Mouse, MacBook Air's USB port... etc
And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies, ( or lies that is external of Apple, anything internal he could be completely making things up to his wishes ). He does put a spin and deceptions into words.
But this is not the first time we caught Tim Cook lying. From the Qualcomm case to the HK Protestor Apps ( Which isn't even used for illegal gathering, but getting away from unlimited use of Made in China's Toxic Tear gas ), to China's censorship.
I agree with Gruber, this is just cowardice.
I wouldn't hold Steve up as a paragon of truthfulness. I think he preferred to be truthful when possible, but it was a secondary matter. I think he was generally concerned about landing his pitch, and if the truth had to be bent or broken to do that, so be it.
My first Silicon Valley job was at Apple, and my second was at NeXT. I was back at Apple for the introduction of the iMac, and I was at the Apple all-hands meeting where Steve announced the new product to the employees. (I use the word "new" in the loosest sense. The iMac was old technology in a colorful new package.)
I attended with a friend who was, like me, an Apple programmer at the time. I had met Steve a few times and seen his presentations before. I knew what to expect. My friend did not.
My basic impression, as I remember it, was, "thank God Steve is into tech marketing, not politics." He could really work a crowd. I never understood how the world's great demagogues had managed their terrible achievements until I saw what Steve could do with a crowd.
As we were walking out of the auditorium, my friend said to me, shaking his head, "I don't understand it--I believed him! I work on some of that stuff. I knew he was lying, and yet I still believed him!"
I felt like that said it all. I guess I still feel that way.
My first Silicon Valley job was at Apple, and my second was at NeXT. I was back at Apple for the introduction of the iMac, and I was at the Apple all-hands meeting where Steve announced the new product to the employees. (I use the word "new" in the loosest sense. The iMac was old technology in a colorful new package.)
I attended with a friend who was, like me, an Apple programmer at the time. I had met Steve a few times and seen his presentations before. I knew what to expect. My friend did not.
My basic impression, as I remember it, was, "thank God Steve is into tech marketing, not politics." He could really work a crowd. I never understood how the world's great demagogues had managed their terrible achievements until I saw what Steve could do with a crowd.
As we were walking out of the auditorium, my friend said to me, shaking his head, "I don't understand it--I believed him! I work on some of that stuff. I knew he was lying, and yet I still believed him!"
I felt like that said it all. I guess I still feel that way.
> But he often offers solutions and feedback very quickly
"You're holding it wrong"
> Magic Mouse
Well, the infamous Hockey Puck Mouse stuck around for two years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse
> And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies
It appears history has been kind to him…
"You're holding it wrong"
> Magic Mouse
Well, the infamous Hockey Puck Mouse stuck around for two years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse
> And for most part, Steve doesn't tell lies
It appears history has been kind to him…
>"You're holding it wrong"
Yes, like I said he didn't admit the problem publicly, but actually offer a free case to those affected. Not to mention the Antenna gate lost of a few db signal was a problem that mostly affect US Carriers where Tower to Clients ratio are one of the lowest in developed countries.
> Magic Mouse
I cant find the pieces, where he actually admit the Hockey Puck Mouse problem and the general dislike from its customers. Not only do you have the option to use another mouse, which makes the matter not as urgent, he admitted he was working on a new design 6 - 8 months after the hockey puck shipped. And the Next Apple Pro Mouse was great.
The solution to all problem is to admit there is a problem, The new Apple fail at that spectacularly.
Yes, like I said he didn't admit the problem publicly, but actually offer a free case to those affected. Not to mention the Antenna gate lost of a few db signal was a problem that mostly affect US Carriers where Tower to Clients ratio are one of the lowest in developed countries.
> Magic Mouse
I cant find the pieces, where he actually admit the Hockey Puck Mouse problem and the general dislike from its customers. Not only do you have the option to use another mouse, which makes the matter not as urgent, he admitted he was working on a new design 6 - 8 months after the hockey puck shipped. And the Next Apple Pro Mouse was great.
The solution to all problem is to admit there is a problem, The new Apple fail at that spectacularly.
> Whenever Tim Cook come on to the stage and said things like our customer loves the Mac, ( Not anymore)
Please do not presume to speak on everyone's behalf. I love the Mac, as do millions of other people; MacBooks have been outselling their competitors, even the first Touch Bar model:
https://fortune.com/2016/11/09/apple-macbook-pro-sales/
Disbelieve it, downvote it, but the naysayers are a vocal minority, and Apple can see that in their numbers.
Back to the topic though, all this kowtowing of Western companies to China is definitely depressing.
Please do not presume to speak on everyone's behalf. I love the Mac, as do millions of other people; MacBooks have been outselling their competitors, even the first Touch Bar model:
https://fortune.com/2016/11/09/apple-macbook-pro-sales/
Disbelieve it, downvote it, but the naysayers are a vocal minority, and Apple can see that in their numbers.
Back to the topic though, all this kowtowing of Western companies to China is definitely depressing.
>MacBooks have been outselling their competitors, even the first Touch Bar model:
Apple has on numerous occasions said more than 50% of their Mac sales were to new customers, ( and specially to China ), and yet their active Mac user base did not grown anywhere according to that number. The only conclusion would be there are also a percentage of people leaving the ecosystem.
And the percentage cross a threshold before that admit to their mistake. Yes, those sales number are often a delayed indication of what the market expect.
Not to mention that sales number completely ignores developing an App for the close to 1B Active iPhone users requires a Mac. ( And in the increase in purchase of Mac from Fortunes 500 companies such as Sales Forces and IBM )
Apple has on numerous occasions said more than 50% of their Mac sales were to new customers, ( and specially to China ), and yet their active Mac user base did not grown anywhere according to that number. The only conclusion would be there are also a percentage of people leaving the ecosystem.
And the percentage cross a threshold before that admit to their mistake. Yes, those sales number are often a delayed indication of what the market expect.
Not to mention that sales number completely ignores developing an App for the close to 1B Active iPhone users requires a Mac. ( And in the increase in purchase of Mac from Fortunes 500 companies such as Sales Forces and IBM )
> and yet their active Mac user base did not grown anywhere according to that number.
Source for that?
Source for that?
We saw how they treated and Google. They didn't have to tell us anything, the message was received loud and clear.
I think a lot of people on this topic are misapplying their western ideas about governance where it doesn't make sense.
One-party states are very effective at implementing top-down rule, and pretty much none of them recognize a right to petition government for a redress of grievances. There's a completely different business environment when the government rule is no longer subject to debate. Corporations in the west have huge power to make political and social change, but this concept doesn't translate.
Apple is a capable enough company that they already understand the legal, social, and political environment they are subject to when doing business in China. Beijing doesn't have to 'pressure' Apple to make changes. Apple already knows what they can and can't do.
Global trade is an essential influence for the protection of human rights, but it's the definitely the long game. I think we'd be worse off as a world if we swing back towards isolationism again. An emoji is not the hill to die on here.
One-party states are very effective at implementing top-down rule, and pretty much none of them recognize a right to petition government for a redress of grievances. There's a completely different business environment when the government rule is no longer subject to debate. Corporations in the west have huge power to make political and social change, but this concept doesn't translate.
Apple is a capable enough company that they already understand the legal, social, and political environment they are subject to when doing business in China. Beijing doesn't have to 'pressure' Apple to make changes. Apple already knows what they can and can't do.
Global trade is an essential influence for the protection of human rights, but it's the definitely the long game. I think we'd be worse off as a world if we swing back towards isolationism again. An emoji is not the hill to die on here.
If you think China doesn't have full access to Apple's users/customers data, then I have a bridge for sale.
I’m sure they have access to the data that Apple’s devices store for users in the Chinese region. Beyond that I’d be extremely surprised.
My understanding is if you created your Apple ID in mainland China, this ID is forever associated with servers within China PR's authority regardless of where you go.
Is this a big problem? You managed to escape a repressive regime; creating a new email address and clicking a few buttons on Apple's website seems well within your capabilities at that point.
It's a knowledge problem. Most people don't know.
Does this mean these accounts would be hidden from Five Eyes? I wonder if this also means the CLOUD Act wouldn’t apply to these accounts? Since technically, it’s not Apple hosting iCloud in China but a separate local company.
We have no proof of what happens to our data. We can’t audit the source and we can’t see the protocols.
China manufactures the physical chips and has a bad reputation for forcing companies to add backdoors.
China manufactures the physical chips and has a bad reputation for forcing companies to add backdoors.
Nah. At that point probably one of the 3 letter agencies would get involved.
The 14 eyes (used to be 5 eyes, way back when), and Russia (ex-Soviets) were colluding with even Kerberos back-doors back in the 90s, why do you assume that various nation-states are at odds with helping one-another keep track of the on-line behavior of their respective citizens?
The government intelligence apparatus (apparently apparatii is incorrect both in English and in Latin?) have more in common with each other than they do with "us".
The government intelligence apparatus (apparently apparatii is incorrect both in English and in Latin?) have more in common with each other than they do with "us".
While I understand where you're coming from- I'd look at it slightly differently- Microsoft has a huge cloud business where people access outlook using web. If MS can secure it, apple won't be that far behind. Then again I don't know if apple has ever cared for user security much...
Anyway, I didn't downvote...
Anyway, I didn't downvote...
If you move with the flow without resistance, you don't feel the pressure.
There's no need to pressure them, they're happy to comply if it makes them money.
Reeks of cowardice is close. Reeks of maximizing shareholder value is more accurate, and this is The West's Achilles heel. Well, one of many.
It certainly won't happen overnight, but I see a checkmate forming, with no realistic way out.
It certainly won't happen overnight, but I see a checkmate forming, with no realistic way out.
Cook is correct. If Apple does everything the Communist Party wants in advance, then there's no need for pressure.
As usual, there is a German word for this: "Vorauseilender Gehorchsam"
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam
Well English has the same "Anticipatory Obedience", often used in context of regulation or WW2 Nazi history.
English borrowed kowtow to use in such context, though it's a little broader, but it's mostly fallen out of favour.
English borrowed kowtow to use in such context, though it's a little broader, but it's mostly fallen out of favour.
Funny the only other languages for page look chinese and a variant.
Chinese and Japanese. It's fun looking at the google translated approximations, the japanese page especially is a little different concept than the german I think:
> 忖度 > Degree > Estimate the feelings of others, and give consideration to others > Missing in English
> There was no English word corresponding directly to “Degree”, and there was a scene explaining the meaning in English to a foreign reporter at the press conference of Yasuhiro Tsunoike. [15] [16] He states that the nuances of "surmise" and "read between the lines" are different, and that the same nuances in Japanese can only be expressed accurately. ALC, which also operates an English translation site, is not a direct translation, thinks about (people) feelings, senses (people) feelings, considers (people) feelings, thinks of (people), the body of the other He proposes an alternative English translation of the words “thinking, thinking, guessing, guessing, reading the air” [17] .
> "Jesusman" is sometimes used as one of the corresponding words for "degree".
EDIT EDIT Is it a coincidence that イエスマン is Japanese for Jesus-Man and is pronounced 'Yes-Man' ?
> 忖度 > Degree > Estimate the feelings of others, and give consideration to others > Missing in English
> There was no English word corresponding directly to “Degree”, and there was a scene explaining the meaning in English to a foreign reporter at the press conference of Yasuhiro Tsunoike. [15] [16] He states that the nuances of "surmise" and "read between the lines" are different, and that the same nuances in Japanese can only be expressed accurately. ALC, which also operates an English translation site, is not a direct translation, thinks about (people) feelings, senses (people) feelings, considers (people) feelings, thinks of (people), the body of the other He proposes an alternative English translation of the words “thinking, thinking, guessing, guessing, reading the air” [17] .
> "Jesusman" is sometimes used as one of the corresponding words for "degree".
EDIT EDIT Is it a coincidence that イエスマン is Japanese for Jesus-Man and is pronounced 'Yes-Man' ?
I'm surprised since that's it's a very shallow transliteration of Jesus .. Dji-sus- is a simpler and easy to translate pronounciation.
Where "variant" is Japanese! Much like English is a "variant" of Italian.
Japanese Kanjis were lifted from Chinese weren't they ?
They share characters the same way European languages share the Latin alphabet. It's not a very meaningful similarity.
> It's not a very meaningful similarity
Hanja characters which are shared both in the Korean language and also Japanese language are actually quite meaningful. So much so, that persons literate in Japanese and Korean can get the gist of phrases and sentences written in both Mandarin and Cantonese.
Hanja characters are basically pictograms, not phonemic representations, and are quite different from the glyphs that make up the Latin alphabet.
Hanja characters which are shared both in the Korean language and also Japanese language are actually quite meaningful. So much so, that persons literate in Japanese and Korean can get the gist of phrases and sentences written in both Mandarin and Cantonese.
Hanja characters are basically pictograms, not phonemic representations, and are quite different from the glyphs that make up the Latin alphabet.
> Hanja characters are basically pictograms, not phonemic representations
This is language-dependent. In Japanese, for example, kanji can be used either for their semantic value ("kun" reading) or for their phonemic value ("on" reading).
For example, the Japanese word "futon" is written as 布団. The first character, "布", has a semantic meaning of "fabric", "spread out", or "disseminate", all of which are unrelated to the native Japanese word "futon". (That is, the word "futon" does not have a Japanese root meaning "fabric".) However, 布 is pronounced in various Chinese dialects as "bù", "buó", or "pu" -- which the Japanese language assimilated as the on reading "fu".
This is language-dependent. In Japanese, for example, kanji can be used either for their semantic value ("kun" reading) or for their phonemic value ("on" reading).
For example, the Japanese word "futon" is written as 布団. The first character, "布", has a semantic meaning of "fabric", "spread out", or "disseminate", all of which are unrelated to the native Japanese word "futon". (That is, the word "futon" does not have a Japanese root meaning "fabric".) However, 布 is pronounced in various Chinese dialects as "bù", "buó", or "pu" -- which the Japanese language assimilated as the on reading "fu".
In response to a question I had in response to your post,
> Is Japanese language always/often a mix of kanji and hanja? Are there significant kinds of text that are kanji-only?
my partner, a native Japanese speaker, explained
> Usually mix of kanji, hiragana, and katakana.
> But some words are written only in kanji like “入室禁止” meaning do not enter (this room)
> For the sentences, almost all sentences require hiragana for verbs.
My buddy, a native English speaker fluent in Japanese, responded
> It’s usually a mix.
From which I gather: kanji-only signage and phrasing (which can be "read" by Mandarin or Cantonese literates) is common, but longer constructions involving sentences typically will have hiragana and/or katakana which are phonetic and have little to no meaning for people not literate in Japanese.
> Is Japanese language always/often a mix of kanji and hanja? Are there significant kinds of text that are kanji-only?
my partner, a native Japanese speaker, explained
> Usually mix of kanji, hiragana, and katakana.
> But some words are written only in kanji like “入室禁止” meaning do not enter (this room)
> For the sentences, almost all sentences require hiragana for verbs.
My buddy, a native English speaker fluent in Japanese, responded
> It’s usually a mix.
From which I gather: kanji-only signage and phrasing (which can be "read" by Mandarin or Cantonese literates) is common, but longer constructions involving sentences typically will have hiragana and/or katakana which are phonetic and have little to no meaning for people not literate in Japanese.
"Global ethics". Now these companies decide what is right and what is wrong. Wonderful.
What a wonderful nineteen eighty four
Yeah but in the case of Apple is more A Brave New World than a 1984
I came to post this comment. I think you’re exactly right.
Yeah similar to Zuckerberg statements a few weeks ago.
You need to ask the right questions, before you get to the complete truth.
bitL(2)
[deleted]
Then how this isn't worst? Is self-censorship signalling obedience to the communist regime now doesn't even need "pressure" and is now automatic by default?
If China hasn't pressure Apple it is only because Apple got ahead of the curve so that they didn't need to be pressured.
Duplicitous cowards.
Duplicitous cowards.
kd3(1)
"leave the apple store"
[1] https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e02-band-in-china [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorauseilender_Gehorsam