Returned online purchases often sent to landfill(cbc.ca)
cbc.ca
Returned online purchases often sent to landfill
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/it-s-pretty-staggering-returned-online-purchases-often-sent-to-landfill-journalist-s-research-reveals-1.5393806
157 comments
Agree. I really try to just not buy new stuff nowadays.
Food packaging and things like building materials are the most difficult.
There are certain things that I think make sense to buy new or 'lightly used' - if you're going to run a vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle, car, whatever) into the ground then you're getting full use of it; and cars, at least until they're almost completely useless and melted for scrap, have a decent ecosystem for second hand parts.
In some sense I think manufacturing has become too 'good' relative to human labour. We're throwing things away because it "costs more" to repair them.
But it doesn't really cost more - it just costs more in monetary terms because waste (both in manufacturing and disposal) is externalized.
Food packaging and things like building materials are the most difficult.
There are certain things that I think make sense to buy new or 'lightly used' - if you're going to run a vehicle (bicycle, motorcycle, car, whatever) into the ground then you're getting full use of it; and cars, at least until they're almost completely useless and melted for scrap, have a decent ecosystem for second hand parts.
In some sense I think manufacturing has become too 'good' relative to human labour. We're throwing things away because it "costs more" to repair them.
But it doesn't really cost more - it just costs more in monetary terms because waste (both in manufacturing and disposal) is externalized.
> But it doesn't really cost more - it just costs more in monetary terms because waste (both in manufacturing and disposal) is externalized.
And actually making the environmental impact and waste recovery part of the price won't happen, because the masses will then vote for the populist party that promises not to take away your daily steak and cheap appliances.
We're kind of fucked — although I would love to have some glimmer of hope to hold on to.
And actually making the environmental impact and waste recovery part of the price won't happen, because the masses will then vote for the populist party that promises not to take away your daily steak and cheap appliances.
We're kind of fucked — although I would love to have some glimmer of hope to hold on to.
> And actually making the environmental impact and waste recovery part of the price won't happen, because the masses will then vote for the populist party that promises not to take away your daily steak and cheap appliances.
It could, if the populist party promises a massive increase in working class jobs that repair the kinds of things we currently throw away.
It could, if the populist party promises a massive increase in working class jobs that repair the kinds of things we currently throw away.
Why would the billionaires funding the populist party and providing vital coverage via their media empires want to do that though?
C.f. UK election 2019
A general algorithm for internalizing externalities (for the set of all conscious beings) would be the greatest human achievement I can think of.
A late friend of mine work real hard to achieve something like this in a way that made sense to me: a tax on resource extraction rather than a tax on value add.
Was your friend's name Henry George? :p
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George
No, Eckart Wintzen.
https://ex-tax.com/
https://ex-tax.com/
Wow, I have had exactly this idea and it makes so much sense I was surprised I never heard anyone else come to this conclusion yet, but finally I seem to have found one. My idea in a nutshell:
tax only non renewable or finite resources and not labour
Finite resources include - land use (be it housing, leisure or agriculture though desirable locations should have higher taxes) - resources (metals, minerals) - fossil fuels
Not to be taxed: - labour - wealth (having money has no environmental impact. It's the spending that matters) - added value (get rid of VAT)
I feel like all tax systems are based on what is easy to be taxed, but I have never heard a good argument on why e.g. income should be taxed, but environmental impact not
tax only non renewable or finite resources and not labour
Finite resources include - land use (be it housing, leisure or agriculture though desirable locations should have higher taxes) - resources (metals, minerals) - fossil fuels
Not to be taxed: - labour - wealth (having money has no environmental impact. It's the spending that matters) - added value (get rid of VAT)
I feel like all tax systems are based on what is easy to be taxed, but I have never heard a good argument on why e.g. income should be taxed, but environmental impact not
I actually buy a lot of things from the thrift store and the pawn shop. Mostly things like books, dvds, records, file cabinets, tools, tool boxes, TVs, tablets, luggage, cables, and other electronics. For example, just last week I bought a high quality set of jumper cables for $5. A while back I bought a very nice oscilloscope in perfect order for $40.
When I'm done with it it goes back to the thrift store :-)
When I'm done with it it goes back to the thrift store :-)
Sometimes it is automation related but I think more often it is due to the near slavery conditions of much of the world. Obvious slavery and colonialism is no longer fashionable but the current economic system acheives much the same effect by other means. Wealthy countries use a varity of methods to keep the rest of the world producing goods at low cost. Even "fair trade", while slightly better than non-"fair trade" is rarely anywhere near what anyone purchasing items would consider fair if on the other end of the transaction. A global minimum wage or global basic income would do a lot to reduce waste.
Some waste is related to health or the logistics of mass production and would not be eliminated without more radical changes (and in some cases might not be possible to eliminated without major effects on health, such as many disposable items used in health care). In theory, manufacturing could work the way scientific exchanges is supposed to, with knowledge shared, and production more localized. This could also reduce waste quite a bit but is obviously a much larger and more difficult change from the current system.
Some waste is related to health or the logistics of mass production and would not be eliminated without more radical changes (and in some cases might not be possible to eliminated without major effects on health, such as many disposable items used in health care). In theory, manufacturing could work the way scientific exchanges is supposed to, with knowledge shared, and production more localized. This could also reduce waste quite a bit but is obviously a much larger and more difficult change from the current system.
This hit home for me when I was working in a factory that made drinking cups for the fast food industry. Millions of dollars worth of equipment to make plastic cups, and then a huge warehouse to store them. All for a product that has a useful life expectancy somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes.
When I asked a Starbucks barista to fill my coffee cup (now empty) with water, it didn't compute. He insisted that I should get a fresh cup with a lid and straw and all just for water. It took a few back and forths but in the end he agreed to reuse it.
Small changes in procedures and behavior in the food and bev industry would go a long way with reducing waste. I think most customers would welcome it. But I guess this goes back to the original problem: Making a new cup is cheaper than reusing the existing one. Perhaps a waste tax or reuse tax credit for businesses are needed to move forward.
Small changes in procedures and behavior in the food and bev industry would go a long way with reducing waste. I think most customers would welcome it. But I guess this goes back to the original problem: Making a new cup is cheaper than reusing the existing one. Perhaps a waste tax or reuse tax credit for businesses are needed to move forward.
He insisted that I should get a fresh cup with a lid and straw and all just for water.
Pro tip: they're selling their annual January tumbler which includes free drip coffee or tea for the entire month of January, for $40. It's a nice stainless steel cup, too.
And for any cup, you get $.10 "own cup" discount.
it’s actually not allowed in the US. used dishware cannot go back to the clean area.
I had no idea and it makes sense. Most coffee shops and bars that I go to (South Florida) don't follow this.
is this a Federal law thing? FDA reg?
tl;dr If the used cup won't touch the pouring utensil, it's OK to reuse; otherwise, you get a new cup.
In retrospect, this is what I observe as a customer in most cases.
In retrospect, this is what I observe as a customer in most cases.
i don’t know except that’s is USA-wide. it came up in berkeley recently when the city required restaurants to charge extra for disposable containers. the issue of customers bringing their own had to be dealt with.
ever notice in a buffet you are not allowed to reuse your previous dish?
ever notice in a buffet you are not allowed to reuse your previous dish?
Weirdly, the two buffets I’ve been to don’t make this rule apparent and only until I was chastised by the cooking staff did i know. I hate having to learn these hidden rules the hard way.
Jerry Seinfeld did a great comedy routine on this. He said that the stages of purchase are:
1. open box, put it on the table
2. put it in the closet
3. move it to the garage
4. move it to the storage unit
5. take it to the dump
He argued that Amazon should offer a shipping option to shortcut all this - just have it shipped directly to the dump!
1. open box, put it on the table
2. put it in the closet
3. move it to the garage
4. move it to the storage unit
5. take it to the dump
He argued that Amazon should offer a shipping option to shortcut all this - just have it shipped directly to the dump!
I've always thought it should be illegal or heavily disincentivized to create such throw away products, but have never figured out a good way to actually measure this. No company is going to admit to creating junk.
If we ever get serious about climate change it will be illegal.
But it's going to be very hard because that means killing some profitable businesses, and right now profit is more important than the planet.
But it's going to be very hard because that means killing some profitable businesses, and right now profit is more important than the planet.
As important as climate change is, plastic and other waste is one of several environmental problems. While it does affect climate in production, it also poisons land, air, and water, kills wildlife and messes up their hormones, us too, and more.
Then there's deforestation, extinctions, topsoil loss, fish depletion, heavy metal pollution, etc.
I distinguish these problems because solving them all is rooted in changing our culture -- primarily our valuing growth and externalizing costs. Replacing those values with enjoying what we have and stewardship, which many civilizations have that lasted far longer than ours has taken to trash the planet, would make a big difference.
This community mostly talks technology, but changing values is probably more important in the long run.
Then there's deforestation, extinctions, topsoil loss, fish depletion, heavy metal pollution, etc.
I distinguish these problems because solving them all is rooted in changing our culture -- primarily our valuing growth and externalizing costs. Replacing those values with enjoying what we have and stewardship, which many civilizations have that lasted far longer than ours has taken to trash the planet, would make a big difference.
This community mostly talks technology, but changing values is probably more important in the long run.
If you live in a country that has municipal waste collection, the best thing you can do if you are concerned about plastic pollution is:
1. Don't litter.
2. Switch to clothes made wholly from natural fabrics such as wool or cotton.
The problem with large pieces of plastic in the oceans is mainly caused by people in developing countries who dispose of their trash by throwing it in a river (because the only other choice is to burn it). That's not to say that people in more developed countries don't also contribute to ocean pollution but in developed countries the pollution mainly comes from washing clothes, as large pieces of plastic are safely disposed of by municipal waste collection.
1. Don't litter.
2. Switch to clothes made wholly from natural fabrics such as wool or cotton.
The problem with large pieces of plastic in the oceans is mainly caused by people in developing countries who dispose of their trash by throwing it in a river (because the only other choice is to burn it). That's not to say that people in more developed countries don't also contribute to ocean pollution but in developed countries the pollution mainly comes from washing clothes, as large pieces of plastic are safely disposed of by municipal waste collection.
> If we ever get serious about climate change it will be illegal
Hopefully it will be one day... but my feeling is that the current trend is for more and more useless junk to be produced for very marginal benefit. An example comes to mind: ipad literally at every tables of every restaurants in some US airports, just to take order... do we really need that? is it worth the impact on the environment?
Hopefully it will be one day... but my feeling is that the current trend is for more and more useless junk to be produced for very marginal benefit. An example comes to mind: ipad literally at every tables of every restaurants in some US airports, just to take order... do we really need that? is it worth the impact on the environment?
No company wants to admit they make junk, but you can measure this at the landfill. If there was some magic way to scan every product as the city processes waste and learn the product's manufacturer, then you could require that companies pay the cost of disposal of their goods. Suppose this magical scanner could tell the difference between products too: Then you could charge the company 10x more for hazardous waste, etc. I always thought this would be the most fair way to charge companies for this negative externality. When a company makes throwaway junk, the customer shouldn't have to pay for it, and society shouldn't either. In a perfect world, it would be billable back to the company.
This would be a step forward, but IMO would be far from solving this problem.
Being rich enough to afford many things (like new shoes not being something you have to plan your budget around) means that you are rich enough to throw things away. And if most people are this rich, then the salary of they guy checking returned shoes for minor defects & funny smells is also going to be high compared to the cost of the goods.
Past societies which didn't waste much just had lots of people who couldn't afford things, material goods we now take for granted. Like owning a dozen pairs of shoes.
Being rich enough to afford many things (like new shoes not being something you have to plan your budget around) means that you are rich enough to throw things away. And if most people are this rich, then the salary of they guy checking returned shoes for minor defects & funny smells is also going to be high compared to the cost of the goods.
Past societies which didn't waste much just had lots of people who couldn't afford things, material goods we now take for granted. Like owning a dozen pairs of shoes.
Or rich enough to buy things that are made to be serviced. I don’t consider myself rich, but I buy things that are not disposable.
I’ve had the same pair of dress shoes and boots for 25 years. The latter have been re-soled twice.
My analog watch just came back from the shop for servicing.
I recently built a audio (tube) amplifier kit. Again, very serviceable.
I’ve had the same pair of dress shoes and boots for 25 years. The latter have been re-soled twice.
My analog watch just came back from the shop for servicing.
I recently built a audio (tube) amplifier kit. Again, very serviceable.
You know, that's a pretty solid idea. Maybe alternatively could even ship it back to their HQ for "repair", and charge them heftily for the shipping.
That's actually how Amazon promotes "Alexa as Xmas gift" here in my city (Germany). For people who don't want anything but you still feel you need to buy them something.
I think we (as a society) urgently need to adjust our "gift giving" culture.
I think we (as a society) urgently need to adjust our "gift giving" culture.
I've finally bought my house, its pretty scary how much is designed to last 10 years. Kitchen Appliances, HW heater, HVAC, matresses, furniture seems normal to have a steady stream of stuff heading to the landfill.
HVAC stuff is modular and easy to fix yourself provided you don’t need to open the refrigerant lines. Start capacitors, run capacitors, and contactors are all items that will fail (especially the outdoor unit) and cost under $7 each. The HVAC repairman will charge you $70 each for those parts, and $400 for a few minutes installation. Open yours up and just buy them now so when they fail (always middle of summer heat) you can just put new ones in immediately.
Even blowers and fans are inexpensive ($150) to do it yourself.
Now messing with refrigerants or natural gas; call someone.
The water heater has an aluminum or magnesium anode rod to prevent corrosion. That will dissolve after several years. They sell them at the big box hardware store; they screw right in.
Even blowers and fans are inexpensive ($150) to do it yourself.
Now messing with refrigerants or natural gas; call someone.
The water heater has an aluminum or magnesium anode rod to prevent corrosion. That will dissolve after several years. They sell them at the big box hardware store; they screw right in.
I've repaired natural gas appliances several times. Usually it is some sort of flame sensor and rather easy to replace.
"The flame sensor is a rather simple device located at the burner assembly. It's not much more than a thin, usually bent, metallic rod that sits in front of the flame stream inside the furnace. The purpose of the flame sensor is to confirm to the system that whenever the gas valve is open, a fire is actually present"
"The flame sensor is a rather simple device located at the burner assembly. It's not much more than a thin, usually bent, metallic rod that sits in front of the flame stream inside the furnace. The purpose of the flame sensor is to confirm to the system that whenever the gas valve is open, a fire is actually present"
Good to know. I was thinking more of the plumbing. Specifically the equipment needed for refrigeration. I’d do flex connections for natural gas, but not the black iron gas lines.
I've been in the Freecycle community for over a decade.
I recently joined the local "Buy Nothing" community.
I am fortunate enough to live a block away from a donation center [though NextDoor members will go out of their way to tell you their opposite opinion].
Yes, I can do more regarding buying less stuff. I am keeping in mind being active on giving "another life" to what I am decluttering both in-house and on to others.
I recently joined the local "Buy Nothing" community.
I am fortunate enough to live a block away from a donation center [though NextDoor members will go out of their way to tell you their opposite opinion].
Yes, I can do more regarding buying less stuff. I am keeping in mind being active on giving "another life" to what I am decluttering both in-house and on to others.
One of the worst gifts that people like to give are surveillance devices that's are at the $20-$30 price point like the Amazon Echo or the Google Home. These are devices that I and others I know wouldn't take for free. So they end up getting regifted or thrown out.
Please don't by technology gifts for people unless you really know what they want.
Please don't by technology gifts for people unless you really know what they want.
Like single use syringes, bandages, tissue paper.
There is a tragic connection between capitalism and materialism.
Celebrate the former; be wary of the latter.
Celebrate the former; be wary of the latter.
Is there a difference between the two?
Capitalist analysis tends to favour material progress as if this is the zenith of human existence.
Markets are useful but they only cover a third of human life, the physical (although money is abstract it represents the ability to command material goods and services). The emotional and intellectual are reduced to second class citizens in service of the master munching market.
Capitalist analysis tends to favour material progress as if this is the zenith of human existence.
Markets are useful but they only cover a third of human life, the physical (although money is abstract it represents the ability to command material goods and services). The emotional and intellectual are reduced to second class citizens in service of the master munching market.
> Is there a difference between the two?
Sure: Capitalism is basically the term invented by the socialist movement for the things they wished to replace. But the idea that they could do a better job at delivering material progress (to the average joe) was pretty much their central claim.
Sure: Capitalism is basically the term invented by the socialist movement for the things they wished to replace. But the idea that they could do a better job at delivering material progress (to the average joe) was pretty much their central claim.
Why did you assume I was taking a socialist position? I’m commenting on a worldview, call it X if you’d like to invent another term.
I’m specifically trying to argue that material progress alone is not sufficient and that is what the current system, whatever you call it, does. Encourage material progress.
I’m specifically trying to argue that material progress alone is not sufficient and that is what the current system, whatever you call it, does. Encourage material progress.
I made no such assumption. I only offered a counterexample to the idea that there is no difference between materialism and capitalism. Half the world was ruled by people who loved the former and hated the latter. So they certainly saw a difference.
And for the record I completely agree that material progress obviously isn't the only thing which matters.
And for the record I completely agree that material progress obviously isn't the only thing which matters.
There is a tragic connection between free-market and capitalism.
Celebrate the former; be wary of the latter.
Celebrate the former; be wary of the latter.
I've heard "free market capitalism" before. But not any alternatives.
Your distinction isn't clear to me; request elaboration.
Your distinction isn't clear to me; request elaboration.
Not OP, but taking a stab:
The distinctions are usually not very clearly presented, because reasons. There are a few dimensions that have become evident to me:
- Markets are exchange mechanisms. They are not specific to private capital ownership.
- Capital is productive capacity. "Capitalsim" is an economic system in which capital is (putatively) the critical input to production.
These are only two of numerous possible elements that an economic system might consider. Among others:
- Property is legally-enforcible claims to control, benefit, or exclusion, from defined economic elements. Those might be personal / mobile / chattle property, real (land) property, productive capital, trademarks, copyrights, patents, contracts, specific other legal rights or licences, animals and livestock, mineral and land rights, and in certain times and places, other human beings.
- Social welfare is a claim to general rights (healthcare, education, unemployment or disability insurance, retirement pensions) which might be included.
- Various social rights or restrictions, including privileges or restrictions / legal sanctions.
- Accountability and/or liabilities for various risks or consequences.
At various times and places, individuals have held birthright to community capabilities, or been all but wholly restricted from it. Land has been deemed private, or held in common, or subject to temporary lease or bequeathing from a king or other government. Labour has been entirely free to move across international boundaries (where those even existed), or entirely bound to specific feudal lands. Ownership rights in property may be near total, or highly restricted.
You can have markets with or without private capital, you can have private property with or without inheritance, you can have market capitalism with or without liberal democracy, you can have liberal democracy without market capitalism. And numerous other variants.
The distinctions are usually not very clearly presented, because reasons. There are a few dimensions that have become evident to me:
- Markets are exchange mechanisms. They are not specific to private capital ownership.
- Capital is productive capacity. "Capitalsim" is an economic system in which capital is (putatively) the critical input to production.
These are only two of numerous possible elements that an economic system might consider. Among others:
- Property is legally-enforcible claims to control, benefit, or exclusion, from defined economic elements. Those might be personal / mobile / chattle property, real (land) property, productive capital, trademarks, copyrights, patents, contracts, specific other legal rights or licences, animals and livestock, mineral and land rights, and in certain times and places, other human beings.
- Social welfare is a claim to general rights (healthcare, education, unemployment or disability insurance, retirement pensions) which might be included.
- Various social rights or restrictions, including privileges or restrictions / legal sanctions.
- Accountability and/or liabilities for various risks or consequences.
At various times and places, individuals have held birthright to community capabilities, or been all but wholly restricted from it. Land has been deemed private, or held in common, or subject to temporary lease or bequeathing from a king or other government. Labour has been entirely free to move across international boundaries (where those even existed), or entirely bound to specific feudal lands. Ownership rights in property may be near total, or highly restricted.
You can have markets with or without private capital, you can have private property with or without inheritance, you can have market capitalism with or without liberal democracy, you can have liberal democracy without market capitalism. And numerous other variants.
That all gives work to other people
they are clueless about what a real gift would be like
What would a real gift be like?
What would a real gift be like?
The Japanese have always held to the notion that a good gift is consumable (in a small home a non-consumable, unthoughtful gift can become a burden fast). Think premium fruits, a nice bottle of wine, or edible souvenirs from whatever region you are visiting from (although these could do with a lot less packaging plastic). That's a mindset that ought to be embraced more widely — leaving the occasional non-consumable gift for when you know someone will appreciate and want it.
Also, books can be great gifts if you don't burden to receiver with the expectation to keep them (although they might). Nothing wrong with re-gifting books to friends, family, or colleagues. But again, only if you know the tastes of the recipient.
Also, books can be great gifts if you don't burden to receiver with the expectation to keep them (although they might). Nothing wrong with re-gifting books to friends, family, or colleagues. But again, only if you know the tastes of the recipient.
At a minimum, something that someone will actually use or appreciate.
Stocking filler plastic tat is not that. It's completely useless and either gets stashed in a store room or binned immediately.
I had thought this would just be intuitively obvious to anyone - buying stuff that's lower quality than you could personally use is just burning money.
I'd prefer that if someone can't afford or doesn't want to spend enough to get something useful they just don't at all. Spend the money on yourself or on charity.
Stocking filler plastic tat is not that. It's completely useless and either gets stashed in a store room or binned immediately.
I had thought this would just be intuitively obvious to anyone - buying stuff that's lower quality than you could personally use is just burning money.
I'd prefer that if someone can't afford or doesn't want to spend enough to get something useful they just don't at all. Spend the money on yourself or on charity.
I had thought this would just be intuitively obvious to anyone
Nothing is intuitively obvious, nothing is common sense, except maybe the UX quip about babies and breast feeding; that's a style of comment which is mostly a superiority boast.
There's a common saying along the lines of "buy once, buy for life" but pushback against it recently suggesting "buy the cheapest thing which will do, if you turn out to use it often enough to break it then consider buying a decent one". Stocking filler plastic tat might be enough to learn whether you have any interest in {jump rope, juggling, yo-yo, growing an indoor plant}.
Nothing is intuitively obvious, nothing is common sense, except maybe the UX quip about babies and breast feeding; that's a style of comment which is mostly a superiority boast.
There's a common saying along the lines of "buy once, buy for life" but pushback against it recently suggesting "buy the cheapest thing which will do, if you turn out to use it often enough to break it then consider buying a decent one". Stocking filler plastic tat might be enough to learn whether you have any interest in {jump rope, juggling, yo-yo, growing an indoor plant}.
Sure, then you just haven't seen some of the tat that's out there.
There are industries built upon selling stuff that's literally useless. It's not just bad, as another post has said it's "cargo cult merchandise".
Normally this stuff isn't even on sale outside of the holiday period.
The resource usage difference between a good X and a bad X is also usually fairly minimal - it's the cost difference that's much larger.
There are industries built upon selling stuff that's literally useless. It's not just bad, as another post has said it's "cargo cult merchandise".
Normally this stuff isn't even on sale outside of the holiday period.
The resource usage difference between a good X and a bad X is also usually fairly minimal - it's the cost difference that's much larger.
Something that you actually use and that stays around for a while.
A real gift is something handcrafted and unique.
A unique handcrafted item becomes clutter when it isn't something the recipient will use. Compared with store-bought gifts it comes with the added drawback of being unique, and thus very awkward to dispose of to someone who would use it.
Handcrafted and unique is fine, but suitability is much more important.
Handcrafted and unique is fine, but suitability is much more important.
No, this becomes culch that you really don't want and you become burdened with because of sentimentality. It feels bad to bin the dollar store crap that you get as a gift, but it feels especially awful to throw out the hand-made junk that your aunt crocheted for days.
First of all, there are zero hard numbers here. Are we talking about 50% of returns being sent to landfills, or 1%? How does it compare with unsold merchandise? Or against waste from packaging, or disposible products in general like plastic water bottles? And even if a lot of returns aren't resold -- how many are still donated vs. discarded? It's completely unclear if this is really a priority to focus on or a distraction from bigger problems.
It's certainly not universal because where I shop online, I often see a size+color briefly come "back in stock" because it had sold out but one was returned. I've snagged desired items a few times that way -- and seen it go back out of stock after my order went through because it really was the only one left.
But second... the article isn't suggesting a clear solution here. You can't tell people to just keep the items they don't want, because there's no way to verify they're telling the truth, so you have to make them ship items back. For high-value items that are guaranteed to sell, it always makes economic sense to hire someone to inspect and restock the items. But for low-value items where it actually costs more to inspect and restock than the item is wholesale, it's just rational business.
I don't think the issue here is returns, it's waste period. The full environmental cost of producing and disposing of products needs to be included in original retail prices. Then, companies will be rationally incentivized to re-sell or donate items rather than dispose of them.
It's certainly not universal because where I shop online, I often see a size+color briefly come "back in stock" because it had sold out but one was returned. I've snagged desired items a few times that way -- and seen it go back out of stock after my order went through because it really was the only one left.
But second... the article isn't suggesting a clear solution here. You can't tell people to just keep the items they don't want, because there's no way to verify they're telling the truth, so you have to make them ship items back. For high-value items that are guaranteed to sell, it always makes economic sense to hire someone to inspect and restock the items. But for low-value items where it actually costs more to inspect and restock than the item is wholesale, it's just rational business.
I don't think the issue here is returns, it's waste period. The full environmental cost of producing and disposing of products needs to be included in original retail prices. Then, companies will be rationally incentivized to re-sell or donate items rather than dispose of them.
In Germany, according to one study, approximately 4% of returns are destroyed. 12 to 16% items are returned in the first place. On the one hand, the resulting overall quota is very low, on the other hand that's still a very large number in absolute terms (19 million items).
Source: https://www.zeit.de/2019/25/retouren-amazon-onlinehandel-mue...
Source: https://www.zeit.de/2019/25/retouren-amazon-onlinehandel-mue...
"it's just rational business" yes and that's why we need gouvernement to step in and change the cost-benefit equation so that it becomes "just rational business" re-value these items.
I work in returns at a very large e-tail company, and there are a few things that should be mentioned here:
1. Shipping damages are a huge reason why items have to be junked. Cardboard boxes are not meant to last long. Its rare for an item to go through more than a few shipments without needing to be completely re-boxed. I wish everyone could see the boxes that get sent back to our returns warehouses, sometimes you'd think these boxes have been purposefully destroyed.
2. Luxury brands are very strict about re-sale of items on discount sites. The explicitly prevent companies from re-selling their items on clearance.
3. Items do get sent to charity.
4. There is a huge cost involved in processing returns which means that items that could be re-sold often get junked or liquidated. Its great in theory to talk about re-selling used jackets, but someone has to process that item, ship that item, and buy that item at a cost that makes it worth it. Warehouse space is limited. Why would I use that space to keep used goods, when I can keep items that will make me more profit.
1. Shipping damages are a huge reason why items have to be junked. Cardboard boxes are not meant to last long. Its rare for an item to go through more than a few shipments without needing to be completely re-boxed. I wish everyone could see the boxes that get sent back to our returns warehouses, sometimes you'd think these boxes have been purposefully destroyed.
2. Luxury brands are very strict about re-sale of items on discount sites. The explicitly prevent companies from re-selling their items on clearance.
3. Items do get sent to charity.
4. There is a huge cost involved in processing returns which means that items that could be re-sold often get junked or liquidated. Its great in theory to talk about re-selling used jackets, but someone has to process that item, ship that item, and buy that item at a cost that makes it worth it. Warehouse space is limited. Why would I use that space to keep used goods, when I can keep items that will make me more profit.
As for variously damaged boxes in transit, there are two reasons:
1) many logistics processes (even inside e-retail companies) are designed around packaging that should survive being sent through normal post/package service (ie. "fragile" means "may not survive fall from 3 means, but should survive fall from 1 meters", "this way up" markings are ignored, etc.) and not around generally more fragile retail-level single item packages.
2) Even if retailer repacks the products into reasonably sturdy transport packaging, often there is either insufficient (usually due to operator error/inexperience) or outright none (in some cases by design of the process) inner padding.
This comes from the fact that packing everything completely correctly is expensive, both financially and in terms of the environmental cost (all the packaging material will be thrown away, period) so it tends to done in terms of experience with how bad the packaging can be before the amount of returns due to shipping damage out-weights the savings in packaging costs.
1) many logistics processes (even inside e-retail companies) are designed around packaging that should survive being sent through normal post/package service (ie. "fragile" means "may not survive fall from 3 means, but should survive fall from 1 meters", "this way up" markings are ignored, etc.) and not around generally more fragile retail-level single item packages.
2) Even if retailer repacks the products into reasonably sturdy transport packaging, often there is either insufficient (usually due to operator error/inexperience) or outright none (in some cases by design of the process) inner padding.
This comes from the fact that packing everything completely correctly is expensive, both financially and in terms of the environmental cost (all the packaging material will be thrown away, period) so it tends to done in terms of experience with how bad the packaging can be before the amount of returns due to shipping damage out-weights the savings in packaging costs.
Re #1: I've bought electronics like this on eBay for 1/3 the price of a new one. The box looks like someone tried to play hockey with it but the item inside is perfectly fine. If electronics can survive, clothing and other items certainly can.
#2 sounds plausible, but there are only so many luxury brands in the world. I bet lots of companies want to believe that they're luxury brands, and destroy returned merchandise to attempt to maintain this, but really aren't.
Re #4: How can we make it worth it? Couldn't they just drop a bunch of returned products on a pallet, and sell the lot for a fixed price? There's plenty of sellers on eBay/Craigslist with seemingly infinite time to sort and resell items like this. I bet if any clothing store in the city posted "$250 for 1 cubic meter of the latest returned clothing items from the internet, unspecified quality/quantity, you pick up", it'd be gone in an hour, every time.
#2 sounds plausible, but there are only so many luxury brands in the world. I bet lots of companies want to believe that they're luxury brands, and destroy returned merchandise to attempt to maintain this, but really aren't.
Re #4: How can we make it worth it? Couldn't they just drop a bunch of returned products on a pallet, and sell the lot for a fixed price? There's plenty of sellers on eBay/Craigslist with seemingly infinite time to sort and resell items like this. I bet if any clothing store in the city posted "$250 for 1 cubic meter of the latest returned clothing items from the internet, unspecified quality/quantity, you pick up", it'd be gone in an hour, every time.
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This is a good chance to plug for
https://wornwear.patagonia.com/
Worn Wear is Patagonia's hub for keeping gear in play.
Why extend the life of gear? Because the best thing we can do for the planet is cut down on consumption and get more use out of stuff we already own.
Join us to repair, share and recycle your gear.
AIUI, online returns that are slightly mangled and in store returns that aren’t quite like-new are also sold here, as well as serviceable but old clothes you can exchange.
NB you can also perpetually repair most patagonia clothes, for free. They do most repairs in contract with local tailors, and have a central repair shop for bigger jobs, so they keep money in the neighborhood and also cut way down on shipping emissions.
Worn Wear is Patagonia's hub for keeping gear in play.
Why extend the life of gear? Because the best thing we can do for the planet is cut down on consumption and get more use out of stuff we already own.
Join us to repair, share and recycle your gear.
AIUI, online returns that are slightly mangled and in store returns that aren’t quite like-new are also sold here, as well as serviceable but old clothes you can exchange.
NB you can also perpetually repair most patagonia clothes, for free. They do most repairs in contract with local tailors, and have a central repair shop for bigger jobs, so they keep money in the neighborhood and also cut way down on shipping emissions.
There are others that do a good job on clothes. Not for returns maybe, but long term support.
Nudie Jeans have repair shops in quite a few cities. The repairs are free. If you don’t like to keep your jeans then they give you a discount (20%?) if you trade your old Nudies in. The sell them second hand after they fix them up. I got a recent pair repaired (unusable before the repair) and bought a second hand pair for $50. So effectively I got two pairs for $25 each. Never buying any other brand jeans again I think. https://www.nudiejeans.com/repair-spots#stores
Trippen shoes in German repair their shoes. I have had shoes from them for at least 20 years. I wore some for 12-15 years with a good refurbishment in between. They are not cheap, but comfortable, sturdy and refurbishable. They mailed them back to me when done. https://en.trippen.com/reparaturen
Houdini Sportsware recycle their old clothes. They also buy back used and resell. https://houdinisportswear.com/en-us
Nudie Jeans have repair shops in quite a few cities. The repairs are free. If you don’t like to keep your jeans then they give you a discount (20%?) if you trade your old Nudies in. The sell them second hand after they fix them up. I got a recent pair repaired (unusable before the repair) and bought a second hand pair for $50. So effectively I got two pairs for $25 each. Never buying any other brand jeans again I think. https://www.nudiejeans.com/repair-spots#stores
Trippen shoes in German repair their shoes. I have had shoes from them for at least 20 years. I wore some for 12-15 years with a good refurbishment in between. They are not cheap, but comfortable, sturdy and refurbishable. They mailed them back to me when done. https://en.trippen.com/reparaturen
Houdini Sportsware recycle their old clothes. They also buy back used and resell. https://houdinisportswear.com/en-us
I had an REI jacket, problem with the zipper. They replaced the zipper, and all the buttons on the zipper flap. Free. I think I gave the jacket away eventually, a very good jacket.
REI seems to have cut back on or eliminated repairs though. The last time I took an item into an REI to be repaired--where I had had repairs done previously--the customer service person told me to mail it off to an outdoor repair place in Seattle (not REI). And they've also cut back their warranty to one year.
If the item was made of a gore-tex or other specialty materials, they may have been unauthorized to repair it in-store. The Seattle place you’re referring to is Rainy Pass Repair, a well-known and popular repair shop that is licensed to work with gore-tex and other exotics.
Yep. It was Rainy Pass. It wasn't anything exotic, just a pack zipper. A friend of mine with a sewing machine ended up replacing the zipper for me.
It was probably Rainy Pass Repair. They have been doing that for quite some time, and in many ways I prefer having a shop I can take any of this stuff to, not just the "REI" repair shop.
So, these aren't really "worn" correct? At first, I assumed the inventory was thrift and my jaw dropped when I saw the prices. They should consider rebranding...
The company isn't known as Patagucci for nothing.
for now, anyway, the clothes are worth the price.
$150 for a hoodie layer (R1) i’ve repaired 5 times and had for a decade amortizes out to a pretty fair price.
And they have an excellent culture. Employees get voting days off, they’re closed on black friday, they do loads of good sponsorship and support for outdoor sports, they’re happy to spend on conservation efforts...
I’d rather give them my money than many other companies.
$150 for a hoodie layer (R1) i’ve repaired 5 times and had for a decade amortizes out to a pretty fair price.
And they have an excellent culture. Employees get voting days off, they’re closed on black friday, they do loads of good sponsorship and support for outdoor sports, they’re happy to spend on conservation efforts...
I’d rather give them my money than many other companies.
They can be quite worn. The pricing is scaled relative to how comparatively worn an item is.
They say that at least some of them are really worn, and there is a tag inside each garment explaining how to return it after you're done with it. How many are actually worn, I have no idea.
I'm seeing more and more stores these days selling brand new things as refurbished just as a form of price differentiation. Unless you really believe that Kitchen Aid has hundreds of returned stand mixers in every single color.
I'm seeing more and more stores these days selling brand new things as refurbished just as a form of price differentiation. Unless you really believe that Kitchen Aid has hundreds of returned stand mixers in every single color.
That doesn’t seem totally implausible to me, but even if it were, couldn’t they also just reuse the motor (etc) in a new housing?
These are pretty normal prices for used Patagonia. It’s one of those brands that don’t drop so fast in value.
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing.
> Why won't companies give the clothes to charities?
> It's an image thing. They're trying to maintain exclusivity.
We’ve reached a pretty dismal place as a society where a company would rather burn their wares than to have a person in need get them.
> It's an image thing. They're trying to maintain exclusivity.
We’ve reached a pretty dismal place as a society where a company would rather burn their wares than to have a person in need get them.
In the 80's, stores like TJ Maxx would have branded items for very cheap, but the branding was cut off. Like Levi's jeans with the pocket tag and little brown rectangle cut off. I suppose that was for the same reason.
Oh I’d be totally into that. As is, I carefully use small scissors to remove brands/logos from any clothes/goods where they’re attached via stitching.
Clothing is the bottom of the heap for donations. Our church rumble sale, we ban donated clothes. Nobody buys them; they go to the dump.
Why don't you just give them to poor people? You know,for free?
As I said, nobody wants them. Nobody comes in for them, no matter what the price.
I don't know where your church is but individual homeless people may not be able to trek around town to visit one of your rumble sales or even know that they're taking place. Perhaps sorting for durability and insulation (rather than fashion value) and driving around with a pickup asking people if they need warm clothes would be a more effective approach.
Feel free.
The point is, the clothes are not the issue. Its the effort it takes. There are places that do that (Salvation Army etc) and they have absolutely no trouble getting clothes.
That'd sad. It seems to me that if there is such a glut a poor person in the US should basically never have to buy clothes.
Imagine seeing poor kids wearing authentic Supreme/Balenciaga and holding iPhone X's. Who would buy those things anymore?
The only reason to buy a luxury brand is to signal that you are not poor.
The only reason to buy a luxury brand is to signal that you are not poor.
You're getting slammed for simply pointing out how luxury goods work. Obviously a Prada coat isn't worth 10-20x the price of a non-Prada coat, but the value in the signal provided by it clearly makes up the difference for those purchasing it.
Removing that signal makes it merely another coat, in a market flooded with non-Prada coats, and hence becomes comparatively useless to everyone.
That less-wealthy people will flock to, and keep demand high for, knock-off designer goods to try to obtain the same signal without the price tag in favour of just buying a quality product at their own price point only emboldens that point.
There's value in the signal, that signal is exclusivity by virtue of wealth, and if the exclusivity of that signal reduces or is removed then it becomes worthless to everyone involved.
IPhones are a different matter. They haven't much of a signal of exclusivity or wealth because, for whatever reason, even the poor will seemingly make whatever sacrifice they need to, or impose on others, to get their hands on them. I'm regularly on transit through some very, very poor areas and yet their kids all have iPhones, often the very latest. God knows what was done to enable that circumstance, but it's quite different from, say, a legitimate Prada jacket.
IPhones are a different matter. They haven't much of a signal of exclusivity or wealth because, for whatever reason, even the poor will seemingly make whatever sacrifice they need to, or impose on others, to get their hands on them. I'm regularly on transit through some very, very poor areas and yet their kids all have iPhones, often the very latest. God knows what was done to enable that circumstance, but it's quite different from, say, a legitimate Prada jacket.
It’s kinda the title feature of Steinbeck’s The Grapes of Wrath.
Remove the stitched brand then?
This is pretty much the same scenario as the Grapes of Wrath, except with food.
Wouldn't "that, but with food", be the story of the Great Depression? AFAIR from history lessons, people would routinely destroy perfectly good crops and food shipments to keep the price high.
Like this is anything new. Monte Testaccio is an artificial hill in Rome composed almost entirely of broken and abandoned pottery. A huge amount of effort and cost went into creating amphorae elsewhere to ship stuff in (often olive oil) which was then worthless for reuse so it was tossed out. Today we have a lot more things to toss out, but the economics is similar. It's often cheaper to throw away than to ship it elsewhere. I always wonder how much packing material alone is tossed out.
Clothing - I'm not getting excited about this. Every year, every big game, there're T-shirts printed with the winning team, before the game. So they print two versions. The team that doesn't win, their T-shirt is bundled up and put on a cargo ship in enormous bales and sent to someplace overseas where they sell for a penny or two. Or for fuel, or for the cotton to recycle.
Clothes are often made in large automated factories. Insisting some human beings manually examine, clean, press and repackage clothing to avoid 'waste' is the opposite of a good idea. Its enormous cost to the economy, and indirectly to the environment.
Clothes are often made in large automated factories. Insisting some human beings manually examine, clean, press and repackage clothing to avoid 'waste' is the opposite of a good idea. Its enormous cost to the economy, and indirectly to the environment.
“Clothes are often made in large automated factories” <- are you sure about this? Normally clothes for all brands are manufactured manually in cheap labor countries ignoring all safety and environmental factors except few luxury local brands.
This makes an interesting counterpoint to "Confessions of a Book Pirate (2010)".
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21786747
Individuals duplicating content without taking from the creator is viewed less acceptable than manufacturers, or more accurately, retailers, deliberately destroying perfectly serviceable physical product.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21786747
Individuals duplicating content without taking from the creator is viewed less acceptable than manufacturers, or more accurately, retailers, deliberately destroying perfectly serviceable physical product.
> Individuals duplicating content without taking from the creator is viewed less acceptable than manufacturers, or more accurately, retailers, deliberately destroying perfectly serviceable physical product.
By whom? I don't think this is true at all.
It's less acceptable to the sellers of said goods, not to society at large.
The legal system doesn't represent the will of the people in all cases; in the case of copyright law it's quite obviously weighted more towards representing the will of money.
By whom? I don't think this is true at all.
It's less acceptable to the sellers of said goods, not to society at large.
The legal system doesn't represent the will of the people in all cases; in the case of copyright law it's quite obviously weighted more towards representing the will of money.
No one would want to create content. So in a backwards way, we want content, so it's our will to have copyright law. If you can suggest another way we can have shows like Dexter I think you should speak up.
I think that the society with no copyright law is better, so I'd give up Dexter for it.
It's erroneous to just picture the same world with paid media missing and nothing else sprouting up.
It's erroneous to just picture the same world with paid media missing and nothing else sprouting up.
Indeed, and I think that those who want Dexter should figure something out between themselves and whoever can produce Dexter for them, instead of imposing laws that affect everyone in the country or world (including those who want to have nothing to do with Dexter).
I'm sure if enough people want Dexter and are willing to pay for it, they'll get it, even without copyright law.
I'm sure if enough people want Dexter and are willing to pay for it, they'll get it, even without copyright law.
> I'm sure if enough people want Dexter and are willing to pay for it, they'll get it, even without copyright law.
This seems like an overly naive way of thinking, see Prisoner's Dilemma as a starting point.
This seems like an overly naive way of thinking, see Prisoner's Dilemma as a starting point.
Given that 1) I have no idea what Dexter is and 2) copyright most often stands between me and works which would have been public domain under the terms extant at the time of their authorship and publication, I'm more than willing to make this trade.
Even Dexter fans may submit that it's not the author + 70 years or 90 year corporate copyright term that is essential for its creation, but rather the revenues made possible through exclusive rights to advertising and subscriptions in the first few years of release.
Even Dexter fans may submit that it's not the author + 70 years or 90 year corporate copyright term that is essential for its creation, but rather the revenues made possible through exclusive rights to advertising and subscriptions in the first few years of release.
How about Star Wars?
By whom?
Well, the eyes of the law, for starters, and all that that includes and implies.
Well, the eyes of the law, for starters, and all that that includes and implies.
We, as a society, really need to stop being so laissez-faire when it comes to unnecessary waste. Laws might be required for actual change to happen. Like French grocery stores having to donate excess food rather than throwing it away.
Last week I took a pause during my grocery shopping to grab and eat a banana inside the store. They had a bin you can eat from; that's where they put the produce that's looking old or battered and would soon have to be discarded anyway.
I was super hungry, and grateful for that banana. A man with two kids also grabbed some for the young ones.
It's a small thing and probably doesn't achieve much in the end but I really like the idea.
Packaged food is sold at a discount near its expiry date.
I was super hungry, and grateful for that banana. A man with two kids also grabbed some for the young ones.
It's a small thing and probably doesn't achieve much in the end but I really like the idea.
Packaged food is sold at a discount near its expiry date.
Yup - that's why I try to shop on Amazon's warehouse/open box site first. 90% of the time it's brand new stuff anyway that someone sent back on a whim.
The fact that it's cheaper helps too
The fact that it's cheaper helps too
I try to do the same, and am usually happy, but:
- recently the price difference on many items isn't worth the risk (e.g. a saving of 5% off the regular price)
- sometimes you receive an item that someone has fraudulently returned (e.g. someone has an old broken item, buy a new one from Amazon, and return the old one pretending they just changed their mind); I had this happen once for an expensive item ($600), and the original return slip was still in the box. It was obvious that the item returned had been used for quite some time, and didn't work.
- the items don't seem to be checked too well: I recently received an item which was missing an essential part
Still, Amazon's return process is great when they're at fault, so overall it's still worth it.
- recently the price difference on many items isn't worth the risk (e.g. a saving of 5% off the regular price)
- sometimes you receive an item that someone has fraudulently returned (e.g. someone has an old broken item, buy a new one from Amazon, and return the old one pretending they just changed their mind); I had this happen once for an expensive item ($600), and the original return slip was still in the box. It was obvious that the item returned had been used for quite some time, and didn't work.
- the items don't seem to be checked too well: I recently received an item which was missing an essential part
Still, Amazon's return process is great when they're at fault, so overall it's still worth it.
Yeah it is a roll of the dice.
Recently purchased an older zenbook this way and it has clearly seen some use (and battery was dead). Still happy though since the similarly priced netbooks I was looking at were garbage spec'd.
Recently purchased an older zenbook this way and it has clearly seen some use (and battery was dead). Still happy though since the similarly priced netbooks I was looking at were garbage spec'd.
I find the discount is little and the drawback is high
Manufacturer's perspective. If you're looking for business opportunities, something with a huge schlep blindness quotient[1], if you love adversarial thinking, then you'll love 'Reverse Logistics'. Also maybe if you're a politician looking to score some jobs for your district.
The basic economic lever is simple with implications that go far: it costs more to process a returned good than the value one could accrue from reselling it because returned goods need to be processed three times while regular goods only need to be processed once. If 3% of your shipped goods are returned you are making a healthy profit. If 10% are returned you are breaking even. If 20% are returned you are going under. Goods are usually manufactured at 25% their retail cost and businesses have overhead that profit needs to cover.
A lot of the return cost is additional labor and shipping. If you can minimize transport (sort returns at local factories/DCs rather than shipping back to China) and minimize cost of processing returns with low-skill labor (say supplementing with high resolution cameras/scales/machine learning inspection by comparing your 'returned' good against thousands of known good versions of your good) one could tackle this. Laws would help in that they would force product designers to push to more assembly and less fabrication steps and fewer steps overall.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html
The basic economic lever is simple with implications that go far: it costs more to process a returned good than the value one could accrue from reselling it because returned goods need to be processed three times while regular goods only need to be processed once. If 3% of your shipped goods are returned you are making a healthy profit. If 10% are returned you are breaking even. If 20% are returned you are going under. Goods are usually manufactured at 25% their retail cost and businesses have overhead that profit needs to cover.
A lot of the return cost is additional labor and shipping. If you can minimize transport (sort returns at local factories/DCs rather than shipping back to China) and minimize cost of processing returns with low-skill labor (say supplementing with high resolution cameras/scales/machine learning inspection by comparing your 'returned' good against thousands of known good versions of your good) one could tackle this. Laws would help in that they would force product designers to push to more assembly and less fabrication steps and fewer steps overall.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html
The entire story fits in the subhead: Cheaper for businesses to just toss returns than check if they can be resold.
The easiest way to change that would be to make disposal more expensive. Start a land filling tax (and/or a carbon tax, which would hit incinerators), and suddenly a lot of these businesses would run the numbers and say “never mind, let’s actually process the returns.” Or alternatively they’d say, “hmm we can’t make free shipping free returns work anymore,” which I think is also fine.
The easiest way to change that would be to make disposal more expensive. Start a land filling tax (and/or a carbon tax, which would hit incinerators), and suddenly a lot of these businesses would run the numbers and say “never mind, let’s actually process the returns.” Or alternatively they’d say, “hmm we can’t make free shipping free returns work anymore,” which I think is also fine.
Shows you how much the stuff actually costs to manufacture when it is just thrown away. Probably just sweatshop labor costs and shipping.
Yup. Clothing has been a famously high-margin business since long before the internet, though. Like > 70% margins being normal for department stores, IIRC.
Which does not imply the rest is profit, of course (since all the competing stores do the same). More like that they threw half of it out at the end of the season.
Which does not imply the rest is profit, of course (since all the competing stores do the same). More like that they threw half of it out at the end of the season.
I buy pants at Costco. Their $20 Kirkland brand pants last for years. JC Penny used to have a factory outlet here where I could buy XXLT polos for $6. I bought several years worth before they shut down.
My wife has an embroidery machine, so I get custom shirts. I have a yellow, red, and blue set of polos with Star Trek insignias, a Smith Chart, radio circuits, etc.
My wife has an embroidery machine, so I get custom shirts. I have a yellow, red, and blue set of polos with Star Trek insignias, a Smith Chart, radio circuits, etc.
Yea I bet those don't have 70% margins. I also bet you know which size to buy when you go back the next year, instead of having to figure out again what shape everybody is making jeans this year.
I pay about 100% of the purchase price of shirts at Costco to get them tailored. The economics feel weird, but I haven’t found a better overall deal on everyday shirts for work.
Look at this list of puffer jackets, with prices like $9200, $3500, $2000, $1500, $700 and a $80 one throw in (hey, we don't judge based on price).
https://www.gq.com/story/the-best-puffer-jackets
https://www.gq.com/story/the-best-puffer-jackets
A good topic to post a contentious viewpoint on:
This is simply an extension of the current "a company exists only to bring shareholders profit" viewpoint. Why resell returned purchases when it's cheaper to destroy them and claim a tax break on them?
Why sell robust toys, tools, clothing, etc. when it's cheaper to sell expensive pieces of "minimum viable product" that needs to be replaced every year.
Even when the cost is an unsustainable long-term business (not to mention long-term environmental and social impact), so long as the executives and shareholders profit from their short-term investment in the company they all shrug their shoulders and move on to the next ephemeral business.
Do you remember when you were regarded as a customer by a big brand - as an equal who had a relationship with that brand - instead of a consumer? It's been a long time for me.
This is simply an extension of the current "a company exists only to bring shareholders profit" viewpoint. Why resell returned purchases when it's cheaper to destroy them and claim a tax break on them?
Why sell robust toys, tools, clothing, etc. when it's cheaper to sell expensive pieces of "minimum viable product" that needs to be replaced every year.
Even when the cost is an unsustainable long-term business (not to mention long-term environmental and social impact), so long as the executives and shareholders profit from their short-term investment in the company they all shrug their shoulders and move on to the next ephemeral business.
Do you remember when you were regarded as a customer by a big brand - as an equal who had a relationship with that brand - instead of a consumer? It's been a long time for me.
The core problem here is really "free" returns. There's a nasty feedback loop: consumers return things more often, so sellers make items junkier and junkier because their margins keep shrinking.
With clothes and shoes though, I won’t even consider buying if there are no free returns. The sizing is too different from brand to brand.
That's fine, just be aware that a good portion of what you're paying goes to making and shipping "wrong size" clothes that will typically end up getting thrown away immediately.
The sizing is different even within a brand, if they source from different factories. I bought two pairs of jeans from Amazon, same size and model of a pair I already had and fit well. All three were different effective sizes.
The amount of wastage I see in online store returns is mind boggling.
I recently ordered something from a manufacturer on Amazon. After couple of days, they dropped price on product by $20. So I called up Amazon for price adjustment. I was politely asked to return it to manufacturer and order a new one.
Seriously, Amazon cannot work with manufacturers to just refund price difference instead of returning the product and ordering it again. It is wasteful at so many levels.
I recently ordered something from a manufacturer on Amazon. After couple of days, they dropped price on product by $20. So I called up Amazon for price adjustment. I was politely asked to return it to manufacturer and order a new one.
Seriously, Amazon cannot work with manufacturers to just refund price difference instead of returning the product and ordering it again. It is wasteful at so many levels.
Price adjustments are actually a fascinating area.
Because on the one hand, anyone can get a "de facto" price adjustment by buying a new one, keeping the old one, and returning the new one as the old one.
Now if consumers all actually did this and shipping were offered free for consumers, you'd see every company offering price adjustments within the return window, just so they could save on the shipping and handling they'd otherwise be paying for.
But in reality, a lot of consumers won't go through the hassle because it's not worth it in the end, or just too annoying. In that case, a company can save a lot more money by not offering price adjustments -- clearly Amazon's strategy here.
The most profitable strategy for any particular company on any particular product category can be either of these or somewhere in the middle. Which is why, even for companies that offer price adjustments, they're often predicated on a shorter time window (1 week instead of 60 days), only being on merchandise that was originally full-price (so you can go from 0% discount to 40%, but not 20% to 40%), or other exclusions which result in the most profitable overall balance.
It's kind of fun stuff to get into, actually.
Because on the one hand, anyone can get a "de facto" price adjustment by buying a new one, keeping the old one, and returning the new one as the old one.
Now if consumers all actually did this and shipping were offered free for consumers, you'd see every company offering price adjustments within the return window, just so they could save on the shipping and handling they'd otherwise be paying for.
But in reality, a lot of consumers won't go through the hassle because it's not worth it in the end, or just too annoying. In that case, a company can save a lot more money by not offering price adjustments -- clearly Amazon's strategy here.
The most profitable strategy for any particular company on any particular product category can be either of these or somewhere in the middle. Which is why, even for companies that offer price adjustments, they're often predicated on a shorter time window (1 week instead of 60 days), only being on merchandise that was originally full-price (so you can go from 0% discount to 40%, but not 20% to 40%), or other exclusions which result in the most profitable overall balance.
It's kind of fun stuff to get into, actually.
Just to point out, all the technology needed to do something better is already worked out. We just need social/political will (or whatever) to fully implement it. We have e.g. biodegradable or reusable plastic, etc., and could make all these items in a sustainable way.
The bigger challenge is converting our systems. E.g. Here in San Francisco our water comes from Hetch Hetchy about 200 miles away. There is very little public awareness (yet) that this is the kind of thing that will have to change if we're going to live in harmony with Nature.
I've been toying with the idea of trying to create a new town somewhere along holistic lines but personally I'm a recluse and I don't actually want to deal with the social stuff that would entail.
So instead, I'm building robots that can arrange and glue small pieces of material together to create larger laminated/aggregated building material. (Image search "timbrel vault"[1] and imagine little spidery machines making those out of irregular bits of {wood,metal,plastic,etc} placed and aligned with CV+ML. Or consider the agglutinated shells of certain amoebae[2].)
I imagine a sort of distributed inside-out factory that "eats" landfill and "poops" new resources.
(I just got my servos yesterday!)
[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=timbrel+vault&t=ffcm&atb=v60-1&iax...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testate_amoebae
The bigger challenge is converting our systems. E.g. Here in San Francisco our water comes from Hetch Hetchy about 200 miles away. There is very little public awareness (yet) that this is the kind of thing that will have to change if we're going to live in harmony with Nature.
I've been toying with the idea of trying to create a new town somewhere along holistic lines but personally I'm a recluse and I don't actually want to deal with the social stuff that would entail.
So instead, I'm building robots that can arrange and glue small pieces of material together to create larger laminated/aggregated building material. (Image search "timbrel vault"[1] and imagine little spidery machines making those out of irregular bits of {wood,metal,plastic,etc} placed and aligned with CV+ML. Or consider the agglutinated shells of certain amoebae[2].)
I imagine a sort of distributed inside-out factory that "eats" landfill and "poops" new resources.
(I just got my servos yesterday!)
[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=timbrel+vault&t=ffcm&atb=v60-1&iax...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testate_amoebae
I bought a Casper mattress when they first came to market. My SO and I needed a new mattress and decided we would take them up on their 90 day return offer.
After the second night, my SO complained her neck was hurting so we contacted the return people. They said they would send someone to pick up the mattress from us.
Next day a 1800 Junk showed up and the guys threw it in the back. Essentially after two days of use it went in the landfill (I assume). So I learned to be skeptical of offers of free returns on items that touch the body.
In the end we found that the NovaFoam mattress from Costco was better for us and it was less expensive.
After the second night, my SO complained her neck was hurting so we contacted the return people. They said they would send someone to pick up the mattress from us.
Next day a 1800 Junk showed up and the guys threw it in the back. Essentially after two days of use it went in the landfill (I assume). So I learned to be skeptical of offers of free returns on items that touch the body.
In the end we found that the NovaFoam mattress from Costco was better for us and it was less expensive.
Costs of production, for things likes clothes especially, are very cheap; the value is in marketing and branding. With fashion, what you buy is effectively a tag that lets you cash in on some of the cachet of the brand's advertising spend and the image it portrays.
The actual goods are very secondary, and are increasingly poor quality. Designer shirts I buy these days rip in the elbows and fray at the collar in less than 40 wears or so; jeans wear through at the knee at around the 100 day mark.
I would be surprised if materials and labour for production exceeded £10 on a typical £100 shirt or jeans.
The actual goods are very secondary, and are increasingly poor quality. Designer shirts I buy these days rip in the elbows and fray at the collar in less than 40 wears or so; jeans wear through at the knee at around the 100 day mark.
I would be surprised if materials and labour for production exceeded £10 on a typical £100 shirt or jeans.
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Many items in the <$30 price range will cost a lot of money to ship it back, let alone the time and effort to process at both ends. Its more efficient just to give away or even throw away yourself, but returning gives you a credit so that is what most people do.
No rude or discriminate, but I think it would be much better to send these returns to the 3rd party countries like India or China, isn't it a win-win solution?
Better than being resold - with rampant return fraud these items can be sold as new and cost 3 shipping trips to
make it right.
Time for the bay to disrupt online returns?
That's already happened in some places: https://www.buybay.com/
Just gift people books.
>Amazon has faced accusations of destroying returned items in both France and Germany.
...and? Is this where we are going, I can't do whatever the fuck I want with the stuff I own?
...and? Is this where we are going, I can't do whatever the fuck I want with the stuff I own?
You can do whatever you want.
Other people are free to have opinions of you.
Destroying something that someone could use is a dick move.
Other people are free to have opinions of you.
Destroying something that someone could use is a dick move.
If you click the links you will see they want to outlaw it.
They'll be socially punished for doing so, but they can still do it. No-one is going to prison over this.
We're talking about a businesses' practices, not an individual.
We're talking about a businesses' practices, not an individual.
> "In the coming months a law will be passed in parliament that will outlaw this type of activity. Companies like Amazon will no longer be able to throw away products that can still be used," Poirson said.
I think op is talking about businesses being able to do what they want with their products.
I think op is talking about businesses being able to do what they want with their products.
I insist that you read the link:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/amazon-france-under-fire-for...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/amazon-france-under-fire-for...
Could you explain how it is not consistent with what I've said?
Also, what's the deal with posting an entirely different link?
Also, what's the deal with posting an entirely different link?
You seem to think this is not already the case. There's a lot of stuff you're not able to do with the things you own.
And it makes total sense, owning only makes sense as a societal concensus, otherwise, you might own something until someone stronger clubs you in the face and gets your stuff. We agreed that individuals having some rights over things is benefitial for society as a whole, it makes sense to restrict those rights if we see they cause harm.
And it makes total sense, owning only makes sense as a societal concensus, otherwise, you might own something until someone stronger clubs you in the face and gets your stuff. We agreed that individuals having some rights over things is benefitial for society as a whole, it makes sense to restrict those rights if we see they cause harm.
The problem is more about disposal and not ownership -- throwing things away that never get used just makes pointless trash.
Right.
You own the object.
Your ownership claim over the landfill, or the air around you if you burn it, or whatever else, is far weaker.
You own the object.
Your ownership claim over the landfill, or the air around you if you burn it, or whatever else, is far weaker.
And then there is the endless stream of stuff that people gift each other because they are clueless about what a real gift would be like but they still want to give something. Terrible toys, terrible tools (break on first use) and cargo cult merchandise looking like the real thing but actually being just that: an image of the real thing.