Let’s Talk about Ghastly Dishwashers(aier.org)
aier.org
Let’s Talk about Ghastly Dishwashers
https://www.aier.org/article/lets-talk-about-ghastly-dishwashers/
78 comments
Hm. I have absolutely no idea what this writer is talking about. I had no dishwasher for about twenty years, then bought one about three years ago, and it’s magnificent. Not even an expensive one, just a countertop Sunpentown.
I’ve always bought “good” (not cheap) detergent and “rinse-aid”, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you’re right.
I’ve always bought “good” (not cheap) detergent and “rinse-aid”, so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you’re right.
I have to agree, moved into a place with a dishwasher for the first time about 7 months ago. It was probably my favourite thing about the place. It always worked really well and I just bought the cheaps bags of Sunlight detergent and didn't really put that much care into loading it. I usually just filled it until I couldn't fit anything else in.
Right, most repair and reviewers note that if you buy good detergent and rinse-aid, modern dishwashers work great!
But if you're doing what folks used to do with cheap detergent, never cleaning out the filters, and such, then you're going to get bad results because of the changes in the industry over time.
And honestly it's not that much more to opt for detergent with enzymes. We personally skip the rinse-aid and haven't had an issue.
But if you're doing what folks used to do with cheap detergent, never cleaning out the filters, and such, then you're going to get bad results because of the changes in the industry over time.
And honestly it's not that much more to opt for detergent with enzymes. We personally skip the rinse-aid and haven't had an issue.
When I moved into my current house, I must have purchased the "good stuff" without even knowing it. I didn't really research detergent, just bought something at the store. My dishwasher worked great, and I was quite happy.
Well one day, my dishes started looking foggy and food wasn't getting broken down. I realized that coincided with the fact that I purchased a different detergent. Even the drain and screen were getting clogged with a nasty goo. I really thought something was wrong with the dishwasher and I was getting ready to replace it. Well I decided before swapping out the whole unit, that I should try the old detergent again. Boom, everything came out sparkly clean, and the inside of the dishwasher looked like new again.
I never thought detergents would make that much difference, but apparently they do. How you're supposed to know for sure when buying is beyond me. I guess just keep trying different detergents until you find one that gets your stuff clean.
Well one day, my dishes started looking foggy and food wasn't getting broken down. I realized that coincided with the fact that I purchased a different detergent. Even the drain and screen were getting clogged with a nasty goo. I really thought something was wrong with the dishwasher and I was getting ready to replace it. Well I decided before swapping out the whole unit, that I should try the old detergent again. Boom, everything came out sparkly clean, and the inside of the dishwasher looked like new again.
I never thought detergents would make that much difference, but apparently they do. How you're supposed to know for sure when buying is beyond me. I guess just keep trying different detergents until you find one that gets your stuff clean.
Yes! Also: if you have hard water/mineral deposits (like much of California), also try something like Lemi Shine (no relation other than a consumer).
(I don't know if the high citric acid content is hostile to the enzymes, but dishes are still clean, and it certainly avoids the mineral deposits).
(I don't know if the high citric acid content is hostile to the enzymes, but dishes are still clean, and it certainly avoids the mineral deposits).
Just put in a teaspoon of TSP with the normal detergent:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/SAVOGRAN-1-lb-Box-TSP-Heavy-Duty...
https://www.homedepot.com/p/SAVOGRAN-1-lb-Box-TSP-Heavy-Duty...
We live in a society.
I've always used TSP to etch a surface to prep it for painting. How long have you used that? Is it dilute enough not to damage?
I was doing doing it for 2 years on the old (Kenmore branded Bosch) dishwasher, using the Cascade and Kirkland detergents from Costco. That dishwasher crapped beyond economical repair.
Have had a new (Bosch) dishwasher for the last 2 years, and have not needed to use it with the Cascade from Costco.
I don't think it caused any issues. It definitely made the dishes cleaner. I don't know if this new washer is better, or the detergent is better (vs 2 years ago).
Have had a new (Bosch) dishwasher for the last 2 years, and have not needed to use it with the Cascade from Costco.
I don't think it caused any issues. It definitely made the dishes cleaner. I don't know if this new washer is better, or the detergent is better (vs 2 years ago).
Or, you can buy pure:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_phosphate
in the paint section of your local Home Depot for peanuts and add it to your detergent(it's marketed as a paint stripper, but it's safe, all detergents used to have it) and add it yourself. You can buy commercial grade dishwasher detergents that are allowed to contain it due to an exemption, but this way you can add it to the washing machine too, for which there are no exemptions.
It's funny how the author's response to the dishwasher problem is not "we need to improve dishwasher regulations" but rather "regulations are bad." Do these "free enterprise" types really want to walk around breathing leaded gasoline spewing from cars without catalytic converters or seatbelts?
I read the first half of the article and came away with the impression that dishwashers today are in the same place low flow toilets were in the 90s. They implemented the environmental protection without rethinking the basic functionality and ended up with a markedly inferior product.
If you buy a toilet today it is even better than the old high-flow toilets from the early 20th century in terms of needing only one flush and not being prone to clogs, but there was a time where they were pretty awful.
So the answer may be that the dishwasher industry needs to work harder to more efficiently use that little bit of water and actually get stuff clean.
I will say that I replaced my dishwasher last year and the new one is prone to leaving food residue stuck to the inside of the cups. We even tried pre-rinsing, which we never did in the old one, but it didn't help. We didn't buy some bargain basement model either, it was basically the 2018 version of the same washer we previously used.
If you buy a toilet today it is even better than the old high-flow toilets from the early 20th century in terms of needing only one flush and not being prone to clogs, but there was a time where they were pretty awful.
So the answer may be that the dishwasher industry needs to work harder to more efficiently use that little bit of water and actually get stuff clean.
I will say that I replaced my dishwasher last year and the new one is prone to leaving food residue stuck to the inside of the cups. We even tried pre-rinsing, which we never did in the old one, but it didn't help. We didn't buy some bargain basement model either, it was basically the 2018 version of the same washer we previously used.
> answer may be that the dishwasher industry needs to work harder to more efficiently use that little bit of water and actually get stuff clean
The article points out that dishwasher sales have risen. You could even go so far as to say that this is a good thing.
Assuming it's possible to solve the technical challenges, then the manufacturer who does it gains a competitive advantage. And a big one if, as the article suggests, the primary reason people are replacing dishwashers is dissatisfaction with how well they clean. People who believe in the beneficial effects of competition in the free market should appreciate that.
If consumers are willing to fork over the money, then it is worthwhile to invest in the technology R&D, so the capital becomes available. So while this increase in consumer spending is annoying for consumers in the short term, in the long term it is part of the solution.
The article points out that dishwasher sales have risen. You could even go so far as to say that this is a good thing.
Assuming it's possible to solve the technical challenges, then the manufacturer who does it gains a competitive advantage. And a big one if, as the article suggests, the primary reason people are replacing dishwashers is dissatisfaction with how well they clean. People who believe in the beneficial effects of competition in the free market should appreciate that.
If consumers are willing to fork over the money, then it is worthwhile to invest in the technology R&D, so the capital becomes available. So while this increase in consumer spending is annoying for consumers in the short term, in the long term it is part of the solution.
The danger being that if someone can demonstrate a system that properly cleans the dishes again with taking an excessive amount of time they could blow up the market and leave the legacy brands in the dust. Especially if the product is not designed to fall apart after 5 years.
If some of the money saved by not having to follow regulators trickles down to them - of course!
Maybe not personally but this organization appears to be just another think tank shilling for industry interests.
If they're advocating for products that serve customers needs better then they're not just serving industry interests exclusively.
This would be a lot more compelling if he addressed what the upside of the regulations are. Obviously using less water means more water for everybody, but why are phosphates bad? According to wikipedia, it's because they degrade the overall water quality - if he wants them put back, he needs to come up with a way to offset water degradation.
Phosphates cause algae blooms in wastewater. They kill lots of fish and interrupt the food cycle in rivers and oceans.
Exactly.
It's not obvious that everyone needs more water everywhere.
There is a non-trivial energy and chemical expense in purifying water for home use.
Avoiding running the pump on my artesian well a couple seconds more and putting a couple gallons more a day into my over-provisioned leach field is not worth having to run the dishwasher multiple times or handwash them first.
There's also a non-trivial desire for a dishwasher that works well. A requirement that prioritizes water usage over dishwashing performance removes the ability from consumers to make that decision.
This article is one of those that only looks at the very surface of an issue and immediately jumps to conclusions. My take from this is that the author hates governments and wants to blame issues on governments regulating.
The bit about phosphates being banned doesn't go in to /why/ they were banned. There's a very good reason for it! As use of phosphates grew over the last ~200 years in materials like soap, our waterways became incredibly polluted. Phosphorous in water is one of the major causes of the massive algal blooms that constantly occur as well as the ever growing dead zones in oceans near river outlets. Even today with reduced phosphorous soaps wastewaters contributes about half of the phosphorous in our waters.
Something to think about when complaining about the government causing water spots on dishes.
The bit about phosphates being banned doesn't go in to /why/ they were banned. There's a very good reason for it! As use of phosphates grew over the last ~200 years in materials like soap, our waterways became incredibly polluted. Phosphorous in water is one of the major causes of the massive algal blooms that constantly occur as well as the ever growing dead zones in oceans near river outlets. Even today with reduced phosphorous soaps wastewaters contributes about half of the phosphorous in our waters.
Something to think about when complaining about the government causing water spots on dishes.
None of this rings true to me. I just got a new dishwasher to replace one that was about 15 years old. And the new one works great. The dishes come out clean every time. And compared to the older model, you can barely hear this one running. There's a 1 hour cycle that I use if the dishes aren't very dirty, but for a tougher load, I run the longer cycles. Personally, shorter cycle times aren't really of much benefit... I run the dishwasher overnight.
My house in Arizona has a 20-year-old top-of-the line stainless steel Sears Kenmore dw. My Florida condo has a brand new Samsung. The Samsung works better, and I use the cheapest Walmart or Costco pellets.
Same story here. I use the 1-hour cycle maybe 10% of the time.
The people who made my dishwasher included a 4-hour delay start. I love this feature because it means I never have to listen to the dishwasher. Which is such a huge improvement that I do it that way if at all possible.
The people who made my dishwasher included a 4-hour delay start. I love this feature because it means I never have to listen to the dishwasher. Which is such a huge improvement that I do it that way if at all possible.
Ah, the delay feature is amazing. I set mine for 4 hours at 8 or 9pm. Then, it'll go off at 12 or 1am if I don't do anything. But in the meantime, if I have any glasses or other late-night-snack-dishes, I just throw them in in the meantime.
This is a very simplistic analysis of these particular regulations, and not at all a way to extrapolate to regulations in general.
If we have no way of making up for the water consumption and pollution caused by appliances, then there is no tax that you can impose on it to make up for the externalities.
Regulating the way they function is the only way around the issues that you just can't encode in price.
If we have no way of making up for the water consumption and pollution caused by appliances, then there is no tax that you can impose on it to make up for the externalities.
Regulating the way they function is the only way around the issues that you just can't encode in price.
Political conservative commentators get hung up on dishwashers as the answer to everything that's declined since the 1950s, because "regulations screwed them up".
The technology changed, but many people's usage of them hasn't, because they used to be simple but inefficient devices that overworked to accomplish a specific task (as described in totally self-unaware and _excrutiating_ detail here) but are now more complex devices that require more than zero thought or effort.
The technology changed, but many people's usage of them hasn't, because they used to be simple but inefficient devices that overworked to accomplish a specific task (as described in totally self-unaware and _excrutiating_ detail here) but are now more complex devices that require more than zero thought or effort.
This is strange to me. I've always only had crappy apartment dishwashers, and they always get the job done. Beyond about a 1 second rinse, I do no pre-cleaning either. Is it really common for dishwashers to be ineffective?
A lot of it depends on you local water chemistry, finding the right detergent for that, your hot water temp and then the dishwasher itself. I've found that lemishine detergent or the kirkland one work the best.
Also if you are buying a dishwasher get the one with the fewest features. I have 7 fancy cleaning options on my KitchenAid and only the "normal" wash actually cleans. Not to mention it leaks steam out a top seal when on sanitize mode so it's basically useless (a design flaw).
Extra rinse, sanitize every other combo leaves the dishes with a hard film. I have to run lemi shine as well no matter what since we have really hard water. I do like that my dishwasher is quiet but you can just generally just put plastic and an insulation blanket over an old one to quite it down too. Best dishwasher I had in an apartment was a 1980s GE.. one with the yellow door. It was loud though. They were super reliable. Newer dishwashers with fancier features break down more often. Older dishwashers are better because they use more water. If you can save an older dishwasher by replacing the door say to match you kitchen, I would do so.
Also if you are buying a new dishwasher, go in and investigate the racks. A lot of folks get a 3rd rack especially when you have a new baby. Be sure your bottles and caps and everything fits (if you want to use the dishwasher to fit them).. I have a third rack that is useless for anything except flat objects. I can wash like 20 sets of silver ware that I don't really need that feature.
Also check the dishwasher rack rollers. I find those things wear out and break especially if they are thermo plastic roughly every 2-3 years. Searched for the part online and everyone complains about them.
Today I would buy a Miele over a KitchenAid. I would also buy a Bosch or Whirlpool over both of those.
Also if you are buying a dishwasher get the one with the fewest features. I have 7 fancy cleaning options on my KitchenAid and only the "normal" wash actually cleans. Not to mention it leaks steam out a top seal when on sanitize mode so it's basically useless (a design flaw).
Extra rinse, sanitize every other combo leaves the dishes with a hard film. I have to run lemi shine as well no matter what since we have really hard water. I do like that my dishwasher is quiet but you can just generally just put plastic and an insulation blanket over an old one to quite it down too. Best dishwasher I had in an apartment was a 1980s GE.. one with the yellow door. It was loud though. They were super reliable. Newer dishwashers with fancier features break down more often. Older dishwashers are better because they use more water. If you can save an older dishwasher by replacing the door say to match you kitchen, I would do so.
Also if you are buying a new dishwasher, go in and investigate the racks. A lot of folks get a 3rd rack especially when you have a new baby. Be sure your bottles and caps and everything fits (if you want to use the dishwasher to fit them).. I have a third rack that is useless for anything except flat objects. I can wash like 20 sets of silver ware that I don't really need that feature.
Also check the dishwasher rack rollers. I find those things wear out and break especially if they are thermo plastic roughly every 2-3 years. Searched for the part online and everyone complains about them.
Today I would buy a Miele over a KitchenAid. I would also buy a Bosch or Whirlpool over both of those.
He's definitely exaggerating the case that dishwashers "don't work." It's true that sometimes people's dishwashers don't work. But I've had personal experience with plenty of dishwashers that do work. It'd be surprising to me if my experience was an outlier.
[deleted]
I can never figure out if these people who have all this trouble with modern dishwashers are doing something really odd, or is there some specific design defect in American dishwashers (beyond the water and energy usage restrictions; European ones are generally stricter) that we don't get over here. "Dishwasher doesn't work properly" seems to be a big talking point in the US, but I've never really seen it here.
Only time I've ever really seen dishwasher problems in person is when people aren't cleaning the filters. Which is an easy and routine task.
Only time I've ever really seen dishwasher problems in person is when people aren't cleaning the filters. Which is an easy and routine task.
"Make lazy engineering lazy again."
High performing appliances still exist -- you just can't get high performance by ignoring environmental concerns anymore.
High performing appliances still exist -- you just can't get high performance by ignoring environmental concerns anymore.
I honestly thought this article was satire 3/4 of the way through the read.
The only time I have ever had an issue with a dishwasher, be it old or new, is when I used dollar store quality dishwashing detergent.
My dishwasher has a quick wash setting and gets an entire load done and well cleaned in 45 minutes.
I don’t use that setting because I don’t mind how long it takes because it’s not like I have to stand around or actively wait for it to finish, I usually run it over night anyway. It’s the same reason I don’t mind if the Roomba takes 2.5 hours to run while it only takes me <15 minutes to sweep.
The only time I have ever had an issue with a dishwasher, be it old or new, is when I used dollar store quality dishwashing detergent.
My dishwasher has a quick wash setting and gets an entire load done and well cleaned in 45 minutes.
I don’t use that setting because I don’t mind how long it takes because it’s not like I have to stand around or actively wait for it to finish, I usually run it over night anyway. It’s the same reason I don’t mind if the Roomba takes 2.5 hours to run while it only takes me <15 minutes to sweep.
I've also noticed that Dishwashers are less effective than they used to be.
I thought it was because I was cheaping-out and getting the most affordable one I could find. So this time, I bought a top-of-the-range Bosch. My wife hates it.
Huh, I probably have the same machine and have no issues with it. If I run the normal cycle 90 minutes, it gets about 99% of dishes clean, there might be one that I'll rewash or wash by hand one every other run.
When I have a lot of dishes, like with family over, I'll run the 1/2 hour cycle and 80% of dishes come out clean, then I'll swap out 80% and run the 1/2 hour cycle again, I might leave a few in there on the long cycle when I'm done and in the time it takes to do one load, I've cleaned dishes for 12.
When I have a lot of dishes, like with family over, I'll run the 1/2 hour cycle and 80% of dishes come out clean, then I'll swap out 80% and run the 1/2 hour cycle again, I might leave a few in there on the long cycle when I'm done and in the time it takes to do one load, I've cleaned dishes for 12.
I personally noticed that they don't last as long and most brands are very similar. My KitchenAid is 3 years old and starting to randomly leak or fail to rinse. Or sometimes it just takes 12 hours to finish a load that normally takes 1.5 hours to finish.
Mine is only a few years old and works pretty well, although it does take a really long time. The trick is to clean the filter once in a while. In my old house I noticed it was not cleaning that well until I found the filter was clogged with all sorts of debris. After cleaning it worked great again.
When I was growing up, we had a high end dishwasher - like 2001 through 2007. Our dishwasher worked great for a while, and then it just sucked. It was because I didn't clean the filter and it was just throwing crap all over the place every cycle.
When I eventually got a dishwasher when I was older, it was a real crap one in like 2015. I kept the filter cleaned, and it did a great job. Same in my current place. The wash time is longer, that is true. I think most people just never clean the filter. They use the dishwasher to solve the problem, they don't think about cleaning the thing thats cleaning their stuff. People also basically never clean their ovens, so why would we expect them to clean the dishwasher?
I'd wager this is a huge part of peoples deteriorating dish washer quality.
When I eventually got a dishwasher when I was older, it was a real crap one in like 2015. I kept the filter cleaned, and it did a great job. Same in my current place. The wash time is longer, that is true. I think most people just never clean the filter. They use the dishwasher to solve the problem, they don't think about cleaning the thing thats cleaning their stuff. People also basically never clean their ovens, so why would we expect them to clean the dishwasher?
I'd wager this is a huge part of peoples deteriorating dish washer quality.
I wonder if there's eventually going to be appliance hacking projects to modify firmwares so they uses more water, heat & pressure to be on part with the older units in terms of performance.
There already are. Check how many views this home video about removing flow restrictors from shower heads has: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa1OBA5H6zI
Likewise, the limitations on electric bicycles made it so that no mass produced bike is really useful — but homemade ones are, thus reducing overall safety.
Likewise, the limitations on electric bicycles made it so that no mass produced bike is really useful — but homemade ones are, thus reducing overall safety.
That sounds like a really excellent way to have your insurer not pay out when you burn your house down.
Our new Bosch is a huge improvement over the Whirlpool it replaced. It runs quieter and the dishes are far cleaner. The one aspect the old Whirlpool did better in was speed, running in about half the time as the new one. But considering that the Bosch is silent and the dishes that come out of it are spotless, it's worth the wait.
But this article isn't really about dishwashers. This is a rant about government regulation(aka "laws"). Laws are hard to get right. Often, lawmakers regulate the symptoms of a problem rather than regulating the core issue. The issue here is water and energy efficiency. The article is right to point out that laws governing the design of appliances is a terrible way to address the issue.
But to pretend that water and energy efficiency don't matter is to blind oneself to the major challenge that humanity will face in the 21st century. In a lot of places, water is carelessly pumped from aquifers faster than it's being replaced. This is a localized problem. The world over, carbon is cheaply converted from fossil remains into the atmosphere and changing the climate. This is a global problem.
Let's see the American Institute for Economic Research endorse some real solutions for real problems. Maybe sensibly taxing aquifer water or carbon emission.
But this article isn't really about dishwashers. This is a rant about government regulation(aka "laws"). Laws are hard to get right. Often, lawmakers regulate the symptoms of a problem rather than regulating the core issue. The issue here is water and energy efficiency. The article is right to point out that laws governing the design of appliances is a terrible way to address the issue.
But to pretend that water and energy efficiency don't matter is to blind oneself to the major challenge that humanity will face in the 21st century. In a lot of places, water is carelessly pumped from aquifers faster than it's being replaced. This is a localized problem. The world over, carbon is cheaply converted from fossil remains into the atmosphere and changing the climate. This is a global problem.
Let's see the American Institute for Economic Research endorse some real solutions for real problems. Maybe sensibly taxing aquifer water or carbon emission.
My very expensive Viking dishwasher has a cycle time of two hours and forty-five minutes. I regret replacing the old Kenmore that was here when we bought the house.
A thought on the political, rather than technical, side of the story:
I went through a regrettable phase of reading about military strategy and the like, and one of the things that stuck was how good strategies need to have a component of randomness to them, to make them unpredictable by the enemy. Trump is chaos and randomness, and him having landed on this issue, and in such a random (?) and (apparently?) sexist way is both testament to that, and an indicator of the danger he poses to Democrats and what passes for the left in the US: They've left themselves exposed on many fronts because they've faced a very ordered and predictable foe until Trump. Nobody, but nobody, on the right would have launched an attack on the left with "women have told me dishwashers suck, now," before Trump, so they were free to pass stricter and stricter regulations, unpunished by the cost to consumer satisfaction.
I am loath to admit it, but there is something to be admired, here, some kind of low genius that demands respect, under threat of great peril if respect is not afforded.
I went through a regrettable phase of reading about military strategy and the like, and one of the things that stuck was how good strategies need to have a component of randomness to them, to make them unpredictable by the enemy. Trump is chaos and randomness, and him having landed on this issue, and in such a random (?) and (apparently?) sexist way is both testament to that, and an indicator of the danger he poses to Democrats and what passes for the left in the US: They've left themselves exposed on many fronts because they've faced a very ordered and predictable foe until Trump. Nobody, but nobody, on the right would have launched an attack on the left with "women have told me dishwashers suck, now," before Trump, so they were free to pass stricter and stricter regulations, unpunished by the cost to consumer satisfaction.
I am loath to admit it, but there is something to be admired, here, some kind of low genius that demands respect, under threat of great peril if respect is not afforded.
I don't like him, but I admire his ability to get some people so frothing at the mouth angry.
He's perfected a strategy that is a perfect counter to modern media's tactic of scrutiny and demonetization of any and all personality traits.
He's perfected a strategy that is a perfect counter to modern media's tactic of scrutiny and demonetization of any and all personality traits.
I was surprised to see an ad from NYC government that recommended running your tap for 30 seconds before consuming water to remove any sediments from the pipes. This leads me to believe that household water conservation is not so important in the region. Also considering things like pools and gold courses, I imagine water conservation within a house has almost no impact.
It is a vastly smaller problem on the east coast than it is on the west coast or even the midwest. There's more fresh water than we'll ever use, and we're not doing stupid crap like opening the shuttlecocks and dumping paper mill waste downstream anymore.
New york gets much of their water supply from aqueducts outside of the city. It's extensively engineered and an interesting read.
Huh. I don’t understand it. Over the past years, I’ve moved several times, and lived with five different dishwashers. The dishes come out… clean, except for the occasional bit of rice wedged between tines of a fork or dried guacamole. I do a lot of cooking. I’ve used a few different detergents and never had a problem. I only rarely rinse anything off before putting it in the dishwasher. Most of these have been cheap dishwashers in apartments I rent.
The cycles are long, sure, but I’m usually running the dishwasher before bed or before leaving for work.
The cycles are long, sure, but I’m usually running the dishwasher before bed or before leaving for work.
Well, from my European point of view, dishwashers are as good as 20 years ago. And we have rather strict energy/water norms. Normal program is quite long, like 2h50min, but you can get it to 1h30, and we have almost perfectly clean dishes - sometimes very small spots of retained/burnt residues remains they are dried before washing.
In my experience, foggy and spotted glass is result of too much shiner. Today almost or all dishwasher tabs have it inside, so you need to ignore error from dishwasher and put no additional shiner to the machine.
In my experience, foggy and spotted glass is result of too much shiner. Today almost or all dishwasher tabs have it inside, so you need to ignore error from dishwasher and put no additional shiner to the machine.
I'd be interested to hear from those that wrote up the regulations.
I assume, for example, that there was a good reason phosphates were banned. But that there has not been an effective replacement is certainly something worth talking about.
I don't know enough about the topic to know what to recommend, but this conclusion:
> If people knew the full extent to which government regulations have messed up our lives, there would be mass outrage in this country.
is as helpful as the headlines the author criticizes, and for the same underlying reasons.
I assume, for example, that there was a good reason phosphates were banned. But that there has not been an effective replacement is certainly something worth talking about.
I don't know enough about the topic to know what to recommend, but this conclusion:
> If people knew the full extent to which government regulations have messed up our lives, there would be mass outrage in this country.
is as helpful as the headlines the author criticizes, and for the same underlying reasons.
I've found recent dishwashers to work fine, as long as you rinse off obvious cruds first. Super greasy pans get a manual wash and a dishwasher finish.
This article felt like my father in law complaining about shrinking portions at the grocery store, except from the 'expert' perspective of an economist rather than an engineer.
If you really think the efficient machines aren't getting the job done, Hobart continues to manufacture heavy duty machines that look fine in a home kitchen.
This article felt like my father in law complaining about shrinking portions at the grocery store, except from the 'expert' perspective of an economist rather than an engineer.
If you really think the efficient machines aren't getting the job done, Hobart continues to manufacture heavy duty machines that look fine in a home kitchen.
I have a 3 year old dishwasher and I've never had the issues described in the article. We use Somat Gold Gel, which from a quick Amazon search doesn't seem to be available in the US so there might be something there.
> Less water [use], sure, but more electricity
Well, no. As dishwashers get more energy efficient, they tend to use less water as well[0]. And dishwashers have steadily been using less electricity and water.
> One in five homes have just stopped using their dishwashers altogether
The survey that is linked here[1] says "less than once per week," not "stopped altogether". The writer of the linked article suggests that the reason is the misconception that washing dishes by hand uses less energy, so people (especially in smaller or poorer households) are washing dishes by hand instead of using their dishwasher.
> Thanks to federal mandates, all phosphates were eliminated from detergent
Yep, those federal jerks hate us citizens having clean dishes! Or, wait, turns out those phosphates are environmentally damaging, which sounds like a good enough reason to me to remove them from detergent.
Moving on to a more anecdotal response - I have literally never heard anyone complain about their dishwasher not working. I have never had or used a dishwasher that didn't clean the heck out of whatever was in it. The idea that "dishwashers are bad nowadays" is completely foreign to me. And, personally, it does strike me as pretty weird that Trump and the article author consider dishwashers to be a "feminist issue."
[0]: https://aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.p...
[1]: https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/news/survey-says-1-in-5...
Well, no. As dishwashers get more energy efficient, they tend to use less water as well[0]. And dishwashers have steadily been using less electricity and water.
> One in five homes have just stopped using their dishwashers altogether
The survey that is linked here[1] says "less than once per week," not "stopped altogether". The writer of the linked article suggests that the reason is the misconception that washing dishes by hand uses less energy, so people (especially in smaller or poorer households) are washing dishes by hand instead of using their dishwasher.
> Thanks to federal mandates, all phosphates were eliminated from detergent
Yep, those federal jerks hate us citizens having clean dishes! Or, wait, turns out those phosphates are environmentally damaging, which sounds like a good enough reason to me to remove them from detergent.
Moving on to a more anecdotal response - I have literally never heard anyone complain about their dishwasher not working. I have never had or used a dishwasher that didn't clean the heck out of whatever was in it. The idea that "dishwashers are bad nowadays" is completely foreign to me. And, personally, it does strike me as pretty weird that Trump and the article author consider dishwashers to be a "feminist issue."
[0]: https://aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.p...
[1]: https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/news/survey-says-1-in-5...
I also wonder how much of the lack of dishwasher usage is at all tied to trends of people eating out or getting delivery. I simply don't produce as many dishes as I used to when I can get something like Freshly, that comes in a container ready to be heated up, or Postmates where I don't need to plate anything. That's ignoring actually going out to a restaurant or something like that. If those trends have increased like they have for me, then people simply don't need to do dishes as often as they used to.
My cheap IKEA dishwater has a (non-default) cycle of 36 minutes, and it gets the job done.
However, I do agree it's getting harder and harder to find dishwashers and washing machines with short cycles
However, I do agree it's getting harder and harder to find dishwashers and washing machines with short cycles
Sorry. This type of guy would gut clean air, water, FDA, “regulations,” you name it, in the name of “free-market” capitalism. I put regulations in quotation marks because they’ve actually utterly integral to a complex technological society. So he writes an interesting piece on a problem some of us have. But he is disguising his intent. Moreover, solving the problems he points out looks like an excellent business opportunity.
> Founded in 1933, American Institute for Economic Research educates Americans on the value of personal freedom, free enterprise, property rights, limited government and sound money.
(Source: https://www.aier.org/opportunities-at-aier/)
So a conservative, business-viewpoint think tank thinks a regulation is bad.
Who'da thunk?
(Source: https://www.aier.org/opportunities-at-aier/)
So a conservative, business-viewpoint think tank thinks a regulation is bad.
Who'da thunk?
Also:
A think tank making simplistic arguments to argue for social policies with far wider repercussions than its essayists could ever be bothered to cover.
Who'da thunk?
A think tank making simplistic arguments to argue for social policies with far wider repercussions than its essayists could ever be bothered to cover.
Who'da thunk?
I am curious about this comment. Do you think that their argument is invalid because they are conservative?
We should absolutely take the chance to engage and debate it since it is a POV that has some research to back up their claim. Disagree? That's fine! But do it in a constructive way - we cannot discourage this type of discourse in America, certainly not now.
what is the research? He said dishwasher cycles are longer, so that's fine, then he said the don't clean. But where is the research on that?
>All of this is directly due to government regulations.
>These regulations have caused an infuriating and devastating degradation of the quality of appliances and the quality of life in our homes. Trump is a smart politician.
Of course the source of all ills is the gubmint. It has absolutely nothing to do with maximizing shareholder value by selling products that are cheaper to produce that don't last as long.
I also have a GE oscillating fan from the 1940s that still works well today, though the fan blade cage isn't safe for kids that might try to touch them. I've also gone through 3 plastic Vornado desk fans in about 5 years. Is this a direct result of government intervention too?
This is a poorly written article with a political agenda masquerading as an essay in the durability and quality of consumer electronics.
>These regulations have caused an infuriating and devastating degradation of the quality of appliances and the quality of life in our homes. Trump is a smart politician.
Of course the source of all ills is the gubmint. It has absolutely nothing to do with maximizing shareholder value by selling products that are cheaper to produce that don't last as long.
I also have a GE oscillating fan from the 1940s that still works well today, though the fan blade cage isn't safe for kids that might try to touch them. I've also gone through 3 plastic Vornado desk fans in about 5 years. Is this a direct result of government intervention too?
This is a poorly written article with a political agenda masquerading as an essay in the durability and quality of consumer electronics.
Laundry machines, too
Huh! I have to run the dishes twice in my brand new dishwasher and it aggravates me. I wash the second time without soap or the dishes come out with soap scum all over them.
Are you using a rinse-aid?
Now that phosphates have been removed, the bargain bin detergent won't cut it. But if you buy ones with enzymes they will cut through the caked on proteins and clean your dishes properly.
From Wirecutter: (source https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/) Dishwashers and detergents have changed. They used to blast the hell out of dishes with tons of hot water sprayed at high pressure, using strong detergents. But starting in the 1990s, efficiency regulations forced dishwashers to gradually become thriftier with water and energy. Then in 2010, phosphates disappeared from detergents.2 The industry switched to enzyme-based detergents, which work by breaking down food into smaller molecules (like the enzymes in your gut), and are biodegradable and easy to remove from water. After a few rough years of adjusting to this gentler, more-efficient paradigm, dishwashers and detergents emerged better than before. “Today’s dishwashers are really cleaning better than anything out there and use less water,” Barry said. “The key is that you have to use them properly, you need to load them properly, and use the right detergent.”
EDIT: also from the article, don't pre-rinse. It's counter intuitive, but modern systems have sensors and if the water looks too clean, they can stop the cycle prematurely. So leave on some food and let the enzymes handle it.