Soviet Santa(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
Soviet Santa
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/soviet-santa
69 comments
It's just my opinion, but it's not uncommon. I believe Blaise Pascal (the brilliant French mathematician) got it right when he said "There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of each man which cannot be satisfied by any created thing....."
For this reason, I doubt religion will ever die. It will be with us always.
For this reason, I doubt religion will ever die. It will be with us always.
I'd wager that most atheists assume that God is very much a "created thing", which makes that quote feel pretty awkward.
No, some atheists may allow for existence of an uncreated creator God. It's just that this hypothesis is so inconclusive, unprovable and uninteresting that most atheists don't opt to pursue it (or disprove it for that matter). Assume there is a God or even The God - then what? We've no way of knowing anything about it.
I vaguely heard some theories that in the absence of better explanations, humans gravitate to attributing weird phenomenons to divine will. Not sure if this is in any way scientific. Inventing forest spirits seems to come pretty naturally by anthropomorphizing a variety of things, but I guess it gets complicated when dealing with lightning and such, and the deities evolve accordingly.
Afaik neuroscience also can induce ‘divine’ experience by applying current in a proper place.
Afaik neuroscience also can induce ‘divine’ experience by applying current in a proper place.
Yes, religion will never die because it's primitive paleolithic thinking embedded in all of us. With education and development of critical thinking, however, anyone can get free of religion and become intelligent (though it IS a lot of work that most are too lazy for).
I don't think it's 'intelligent' to be anti-religious. Numerous studies have shown that religious people tend to be healthier, live longer, and have higher levels of subjective well-being.
I'm not saying it's for everybody, or that everybody should follow one flavor of religion. But it's definitely wrong to look down upon those who choose to be religious, as there are several advantages (in the here and now).
Here's a Harvard paper and another, for good measure. The internet is chock full of papers like these.
https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/December-2016/The-Menta...
https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=40219
I'm not saying it's for everybody, or that everybody should follow one flavor of religion. But it's definitely wrong to look down upon those who choose to be religious, as there are several advantages (in the here and now).
Here's a Harvard paper and another, for good measure. The internet is chock full of papers like these.
https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/December-2016/The-Menta...
https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=40219
> Numerous studies have shown that religious people tend to be healthier, live longer, and have higher levels of subjective well-being.
It's at least a bit of the tragedy of the commons. Religious people feel and live better but make others feel worse and have more stressful lives.
Of course this is a very subjective opinion, but I have witnessed enough examples where this is true.
It's at least a bit of the tragedy of the commons. Religious people feel and live better but make others feel worse and have more stressful lives.
Of course this is a very subjective opinion, but I have witnessed enough examples where this is true.
I think you can have rationality and a deep spiritual connection to nature.
There are some doctrines in Buddhism and the writings of Carl Sagan that make me feel that.
There are some doctrines in Buddhism and the writings of Carl Sagan that make me feel that.
As a Russian, can confirm this article is quite accurate - my family only ever celebrates New Years, it's the same as Christmas is usually in the West, and Ded Moroz is totally a thing.
How do you pronounce Ded Moroz in an anglophone way? I noticed you used “Dez” instead of Ded.
That’s a typo.
The pronunciation is close to “dee-yet mah-ross”
The pronunciation is close to “dee-yet mah-ross”
Yep, we called him "Dedek Mraz" in the balkans which also literaly translates into Grandfather Frost.
(Although we did celebrate christmas since the anti-religion clampdown wasn't that aggressive in Yugoslavia.)
(Although we did celebrate christmas since the anti-religion clampdown wasn't that aggressive in Yugoslavia.)
"дядо мраз" in bulgaria. we also celebrated xmas with a quiet family vegetarian dinner, not having such a massive clampdown on religion, and "mraz" delivered presents on new year's. after 1989 things came back to normality and he's now called "дядо коледа". new year's is just a drinking holiday :)
Mraz, sounds like мразь, not a very good word :))
Belated, but we fixed the typo above.
Joke is, it is pronounced "dead morose". Close but not quite (the first word is more like "dzed").
[deleted]
Correct artice and being from ex communist country even after more than 25 years I certainly have issues celebrating christmas. "They were able to celebrate Christmas, but they had never done it before." most resonates with me.
Makes me realize the importance of traditions and how fragile they are.
You do? We (Russian Americans in the US) celebrate two Christmases and two New Years, both by the "new" calendar (Dec 25/Jan 1) and by the old (Jan 7 Christmas, Jan 13 "Old" New Year). Because, as they say in Russia, "there's no reason not to drink".
Serbians also still celebrate Christmas and New Years according to the old Julian calendar. In a few thousand years they really will have Christmas in July.
It moves 3 days forward versus the Gregorian calendar every 400 years. So about 24,000 years (a little less) to hit July
Sure we have this drinking excuse as well! (Mind that even our anthem is basicly a toast)
But Christmas went more into comsumerism with crowded shopping malls, excessive buying etc.
We stil have some people celebrating santa and others dedek mraz.
Mostyl correct but it somehow gives impression that religon pracitce was banned in USSR ("After the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, religious practice became legal again.").
Which is not true. There were still churches and priests and religious practice. While being religious was seriously frowned upon and would not allow you to have any serious hopes for making a bigger career it was legal. I remember my mother telling stories about "Christmas patrols" but I guess those were the years around the WWII, because we used to have a Christmas tree and Christmas Eve celebration without much fear.
New Year was still wayyy bigger deal.
New Year was still wayyy bigger deal.
Religious practice was certainly illegal, unless it was official Orthodox, Muslim, Jewish etc. There was no way to organize a non-canonical congregation, unless it was a clandestine operation for a dozen people.
There was an article in the RSFSR Felony codex ("breaking the laws of separation of the church from the state, and of the school from the church", #142) the sole purpose of which was to outlaw religious congregations.
Many baptists (mostly Ukrainian) were imprisoned indefinitely - well into eighties - for refusing to obtain passports.
Finally the idea of "legality" of something for which you get persecuted and mocked by state and party officials (as part of their line of duty), and get auto-fired from a significant part of the economy in a state with no (legal) private economy seems a little twisted.
There was an article in the RSFSR Felony codex ("breaking the laws of separation of the church from the state, and of the school from the church", #142) the sole purpose of which was to outlaw religious congregations.
Many baptists (mostly Ukrainian) were imprisoned indefinitely - well into eighties - for refusing to obtain passports.
Finally the idea of "legality" of something for which you get persecuted and mocked by state and party officials (as part of their line of duty), and get auto-fired from a significant part of the economy in a state with no (legal) private economy seems a little twisted.
We also had "Ded Moroz" in communist Romania, translated to "Moș Gerilă".
It was imported due to the soviet occupation after WWII and the subsequent adoption of communism. The word Christmas was censored in 1948. In the 80s our beloved supreme leader wanted to associate those presents with the state instead of Moș Gerilă, so things got a little weird with the state propaganda.
After the revolution in 1989 we changed the holiday to the Christmas in the Gregorian calendar and Santa Claus, translated as "Moș Crăciun" (Father Christmas).
It was imported due to the soviet occupation after WWII and the subsequent adoption of communism. The word Christmas was censored in 1948. In the 80s our beloved supreme leader wanted to associate those presents with the state instead of Moș Gerilă, so things got a little weird with the state propaganda.
After the revolution in 1989 we changed the holiday to the Christmas in the Gregorian calendar and Santa Claus, translated as "Moș Crăciun" (Father Christmas).
We still don't know who was Ded Moroz's son or daughter though.
According to [1], "Ded" (literally Grandfather) is used here in the sense of an old man or an ancestor. Snegurochka is his daughter. Ded Moroz's mother was Baba Yaga, and his wife was the Snow Queen. Hope this clears everything up.
[1] https://cb-rzhev.blogspot.com/2013/11/blog-post_4347.html
[1] https://cb-rzhev.blogspot.com/2013/11/blog-post_4347.html
> Santa Claus is one of several manifestations of a particular wintertime character, probably originating with the pagan, pre-Christian Germanic and Norse god Odin.
No, 'Santa Slaus' is a distortion of st. nicholas, to which people may or may not have ascribed characteristics of previous 'wintertime characters', as attested to by the further examples of: Sinterklaas, Mikulás, which are both actually not distinct entities, but both 'St Nicholas' in their respective languages. One can make some anthropological case that these are 'manifestations', but in the case of 'Santa Klaus', the core 'identity' is still a 'nicholas figure' to which people may or may not have ascribed other attributes. Lineage and conceptual transactions are important here, esp. since this makes a less appealing narrative to spin, when one is trying to downplay the second-ranked feast day in the official state religion of an empire that viewed itself as the direct and legitimate successor of imperial christian rome.
e.g:
"It wasn’t really a festival exactly, but more of a somber religious holiday marked by fasting and long church services in Old Church Slavonic"
This is what feast days (aka 'festivals') are in orthodoxy. Followed by a 'feast'. So yes, it was a festival, "exactly".
Christmas was a major day of important significance in imperial russia, and Fr. Frost was directly promoted as a secular replacement for St. Nicholas, because soviet-style communists are militantly athiest and hostilly anti-religion. The very fact that this figure exists is a testimonial to the need to provide a 'foil' for the people to accept his removal, rather than just some casual 'cultural shift' to a different 'winter character manifestation'.
As for people 'forgetting how to celebrate christmas' during soviet times, please recall (whether positively or negatively) that Mr. Putin's mother had him baptized in secret from his communist father and he makes pilgrimages to monasteries regularly. The current high place of the church in russian society did not just originate in some ideological vaccum, many never gave up in the face of overt and militant religious hostility.
No, 'Santa Slaus' is a distortion of st. nicholas, to which people may or may not have ascribed characteristics of previous 'wintertime characters', as attested to by the further examples of: Sinterklaas, Mikulás, which are both actually not distinct entities, but both 'St Nicholas' in their respective languages. One can make some anthropological case that these are 'manifestations', but in the case of 'Santa Klaus', the core 'identity' is still a 'nicholas figure' to which people may or may not have ascribed other attributes. Lineage and conceptual transactions are important here, esp. since this makes a less appealing narrative to spin, when one is trying to downplay the second-ranked feast day in the official state religion of an empire that viewed itself as the direct and legitimate successor of imperial christian rome.
e.g:
"It wasn’t really a festival exactly, but more of a somber religious holiday marked by fasting and long church services in Old Church Slavonic"
This is what feast days (aka 'festivals') are in orthodoxy. Followed by a 'feast'. So yes, it was a festival, "exactly".
Christmas was a major day of important significance in imperial russia, and Fr. Frost was directly promoted as a secular replacement for St. Nicholas, because soviet-style communists are militantly athiest and hostilly anti-religion. The very fact that this figure exists is a testimonial to the need to provide a 'foil' for the people to accept his removal, rather than just some casual 'cultural shift' to a different 'winter character manifestation'.
As for people 'forgetting how to celebrate christmas' during soviet times, please recall (whether positively or negatively) that Mr. Putin's mother had him baptized in secret from his communist father and he makes pilgrimages to monasteries regularly. The current high place of the church in russian society did not just originate in some ideological vaccum, many never gave up in the face of overt and militant religious hostility.
tomaszs(1)
I live in Poland. Before 89 when my country was occupied by Russia, "Soviet Santa" was forced here to replace Santa Clous. It was one of many things that was made to erase Christianity and replace it with atheism and communism. Fake Christmas, fake Santa, zero beliefs. I was young back than but i felt its shallow and dark. So for me Soviet Santa is a symbol of the occupation and Russian tyrrany Poland was under until 89...
All: come on you guys. Let's not have nationalistic flamewar for Christmas please.
Nor any other day on HN.
Nor any other day on HN.
You dont have any right for tone policing. And i find your comment extremely offensive.
I'm a moderator here; it's my job to prevent this site from destroying itself, which is what subthreads like this converge to.
I said "all" as a way of addressing every commenter who was posting in this spirit—not just you. Your comment wasn't so bad, since you were simply describing your experience and your feelings. But it's the root of exactly the sort of flamewar we don't want on HN. The internet can't handle arguing about this kind of thing without losing its mind.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I said "all" as a way of addressing every commenter who was posting in this spirit—not just you. Your comment wasn't so bad, since you were simply describing your experience and your feelings. But it's the root of exactly the sort of flamewar we don't want on HN. The internet can't handle arguing about this kind of thing without losing its mind.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I browse the comment section and all i see ia regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever. And a moderator who censored my experience and offended not only me but everyone who would like to share theirs. I still didnt get an apology for it.
> I browse the comment section and all i see is regular discussion. With no flame whatsoever.
One time many years ago, as a much younger man, I received a parking fine for parking too long in a time-limited spot outside my home, having not bothered to organise a residents' permit.
Irate, I took it "all the way to city hall" to contest the fine on the grounds of injustice and superfluousness.
On meeting the municipal officials in the arbitration room, I protested "I don't understand why you need to issue tickets in that street; there's always plenty of parking available".
They looked back at me as the naive young fool that I was and explained: "Do you know why there's always parking available for you? It's because we enforce the rules."
Duly chastened, I paid the fine, got a permit, and received no further penalties.
And for the subsequent three years I lived at that house, there continued to be plenty of parking available.
One time many years ago, as a much younger man, I received a parking fine for parking too long in a time-limited spot outside my home, having not bothered to organise a residents' permit.
Irate, I took it "all the way to city hall" to contest the fine on the grounds of injustice and superfluousness.
On meeting the municipal officials in the arbitration room, I protested "I don't understand why you need to issue tickets in that street; there's always plenty of parking available".
They looked back at me as the naive young fool that I was and explained: "Do you know why there's always parking available for you? It's because we enforce the rules."
Duly chastened, I paid the fine, got a permit, and received no further penalties.
And for the subsequent three years I lived at that house, there continued to be plenty of parking available.
I get it. I am from Poland and dont understand the rules. Your story explained it to me so i can understand it in a simple way. Thanks. Great day on HN. I have learned today more than i have expected to.
I did not know about Poland to be occupied, but recall myself when Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) had similar fate for almost 50 years - everything related to Christmas was translated somehow to New Year and real christian celebration was effectively banned. I remember having strange remarks in school (in mid-80ies) when we had Santa Claus instead official DedMaroz in home secretly. Nothing serious anymore then. Next interesting time was in 90ies with re-independence, all it was converted back to very christian and churches were packed in Christmas eve. New Year was regarded as soviet thing for some time. Now we see some revival of more joyful new year celebrations and current agnostic president did not even go to the christmas mass. Which was small scandal but a sign of times also.
[flagged]
Please don't go on about downvoting–it's tedious and breaks the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Also, please don't take HN threads into religious or ideological flamewar. Your comment doesn't exactly go there but it's a step in that direction, and we're trying to avoid that on this site.
Also, please don't take HN threads into religious or ideological flamewar. Your comment doesn't exactly go there but it's a step in that direction, and we're trying to avoid that on this site.
[deleted]
history is never one-sided like hand-picking of facts and interpretations tends to present. Together with the "occupation by Russia" Poland also got to annex significant parts of German territories (some of those had had no valid Polish claim, like for example the Prussia, some had been historically contested between German and Poland) - it was practically spoils of war gifted by the "Russian occupiers" to Poland (any gratitude for the gift?). The "occupation" has ended 30 years ago, and that is basically a right thing. Any plans on giving the annexed territories back?
Polish borders were decided in Postdam conferrence between USA, UK and USSR with a pupped goverment that acted as reprezentation of Poland. But they were USSR designates. Polish government in excile was not invited to the talks. So Poland could not annex anything. The big 3 decided how to draw borders.
i see. So, Poland was a victim forced by the occupants to take the lands. "They made us do it!". Well, now that the occupants is long gone, and the Poland is finally free ... When does Poland is going to get rid of this last disgusting vestige and symbol of occupation, ie. those foreign lands forced upon the Poland? As far as i see, judging by the booming development of resorts and everything else going on for example on the Baltic sea shores in the former Prussia, Poland is planning to enjoy these "forced" gifts from the occupants for a very long time ahead. All that while continuing to cry how bad the "occupation" was for Poland. :)
> Any plans on giving the annexed territories back?
Sure, if the Germans give it back to [the original Prussians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians), it would only be fair.
Sure, if the Germans give it back to [the original Prussians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians), it would only be fair.
[deleted]
Yes, we’re planning to return it to Sorbia once Germany grants it independence. /s
Could you elaborate on "Poland was occupied by Russia"?
Let's put alone that in 89 it was USSR so Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, etc. all together.
In any case there were no Russian troops stationed in Poland. Quite opposite, Poland and its army was one of leading members of Warsaw Pact (the name, sic!).
So what does "occupation" mean in your statement?
Let's put alone that in 89 it was USSR so Russia, Ukraine, Belorussia, etc. all together.
In any case there were no Russian troops stationed in Poland. Quite opposite, Poland and its army was one of leading members of Warsaw Pact (the name, sic!).
So what does "occupation" mean in your statement?
Our leaders were Polish but their words came directly from Moscow. There were Soviet troops stationed in Poland ready for action were those words repeated without the necessary accuracy or zeal. I think the word ‘occupation’ is 100% correct.
Get your facts straight: USSR troops were stationed in Poland.
Wheter it was occupation or not is debatable.
Wheter it was occupation or not is debatable.
What you’re saying is like asking whether or not the French were actually occupied during the Vichy government.
Not OP, but see Hungary '56 and Czechoslovakia '68 for what happens to 'leading warsaw pact members' who decide they want to deviate from the soviet party line.
Yes, we should be so sad that fascist uprisings threatening to exterminate the poor, disabled and non-native were instead defeated with help from friendly socialist countries.
Not all protests, uprisings and revolutions are good. Look at their class character and composition.
Not all protests, uprisings and revolutions are good. Look at their class character and composition.
a) Thread context was communist poland being a vassal of the USSR, whose policy was subordinate to the CPSU. These examples highlight that policy was not in fact independent in these countries, and, when significant deviation occured, soviet military invasion was a consequence. Whether the uprisings / deviations are good or bad is secondary to this point.
b) As for 'facism': show me the 'facism' in the key documents:
HU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutio...
CS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face
(yes, wikipedia scholarship, better sources welcome)
while I have no doubt that facists would piggy-back on to any anti-communist movement to seize a moment of opportunity, framing either of these as 'facist' at their core is at best poor analysis. Even hard-core bolsheviks would differentiate betwean 'bourgeois-democratic reactionaries' and 'facists' since being clear in distinction is necessary for proper argument/strategy.
b) As for 'facism': show me the 'facism' in the key documents:
HU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demands_of_Hungarian_Revolutio...
CS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_a_human_face
(yes, wikipedia scholarship, better sources welcome)
while I have no doubt that facists would piggy-back on to any anti-communist movement to seize a moment of opportunity, framing either of these as 'facist' at their core is at best poor analysis. Even hard-core bolsheviks would differentiate betwean 'bourgeois-democratic reactionaries' and 'facists' since being clear in distinction is necessary for proper argument/strategy.
Gosh, this website is one of the worst cookie consent implementation with the oath familly...
Add to this the fact that in the 70s and likely later, people were still migrating from rural villages to the cities, with the whole baggage of inherited religiosity and mishmash of folk beliefs. My grandmother put in plenty of time in prayer each day. Icons or whole arrangements of them are a feature in many homes, cars and sometimes, more rarely, offices. And I still receive messages from my parents each year, commemorating birth and then the resurrection of Christ. Folk culture doesn't tend to follow an official doctrine, as exemplified by troves of Soviet jokes—and is also not big on ideological clarity, so many didn't see a problem in subscribing to both socialism and Christianity, along with crystal healing, magical powers of thought and a bouquet of other fringe beliefs.
In the 90s, my home city already had a bunch of churches including at least one large temple, and one or two monasteries—and I don't think they popped up recently.
Notably also, even Bolsheviks preserved old and unassuming Karelian wooden churches, recognizing them as architectural and cultural monuments—while demolishing some huge temples in Moscow. Like the Kondopoga church, built in 1774 and which somebody burned down in August of 2018: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Church_of_the_Do...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_Church,_Kondopoga