Ask HN: Ex-Employer gossiping I “hacked” their platform – what to do?
98 comments
Been there myself and seen it in other places too.
It can actually be a good filter, prospect-wise: a company that does gossip about/blame an ex-employee for some of their failures is advertising their own lack of agency.
If they were smart, they wouldn't gossip, and not even let the gossip go. That's very bad strategy, both internally and externally.
If they're not, well, I can't tell you what to do.
What happened to me:
1. first I spent several horrible months expecting my whole career to be over;
2. until I realized my ex-employer and its own reputation in the field was totally irrelevant and could not harm much my reputation (or better yet, act as a useful filter);
3. when looking for employment, when relevant, I explicitly mentioned this experience and what came with it, and what I was then looking for in a new company/position/team, so that I was the first to pitch what did happen and how I reacted to it.
It served me well. Those that listened to my story and took the time to understand it turned out to be great teams to work with. Those that dismissed me on the spot, well... I can't say really - but what I heard of afterwise from ex-employees was kind of reminiscent. :)
It can actually be a good filter, prospect-wise: a company that does gossip about/blame an ex-employee for some of their failures is advertising their own lack of agency.
If they were smart, they wouldn't gossip, and not even let the gossip go. That's very bad strategy, both internally and externally.
If they're not, well, I can't tell you what to do.
What happened to me:
1. first I spent several horrible months expecting my whole career to be over;
2. until I realized my ex-employer and its own reputation in the field was totally irrelevant and could not harm much my reputation (or better yet, act as a useful filter);
3. when looking for employment, when relevant, I explicitly mentioned this experience and what came with it, and what I was then looking for in a new company/position/team, so that I was the first to pitch what did happen and how I reacted to it.
It served me well. Those that listened to my story and took the time to understand it turned out to be great teams to work with. Those that dismissed me on the spot, well... I can't say really - but what I heard of afterwise from ex-employees was kind of reminiscent. :)
This is exactly what happened to me. I went from being a model "A-player" to "He was a C-player who needed to go". Don't think for 1 second the business will ever compromise itself for you.
#3 is really important. Do not shy away from sharing your stories with your potential new employer. It helps them better understand who you are. If they care about you and the investment they are making in you, then they will want to hire someone who is strong enough to stand up for something they believe.
#3 is really important. Do not shy away from sharing your stories with your potential new employer. It helps them better understand who you are. If they care about you and the investment they are making in you, then they will want to hire someone who is strong enough to stand up for something they believe.
#3 can also backfire badly. Personally I would avoid it.
If it's going to come up, either via references provided by the employee or via a backchannel, you're smarter to directly address it in the interview with the hiring manager. At least that way the hiring manager hears your side of the story too.
We hired someone who came within a hair of (deservedly) being charged with a felony by the FBI. He basically said he did something stupid 10 years ago, had learned a lesson, made amends, etc. Had he not addressed it during the interview, we would definitely have not hired him when it later came up during a formal background check.
We hired someone who came within a hair of (deservedly) being charged with a felony by the FBI. He basically said he did something stupid 10 years ago, had learned a lesson, made amends, etc. Had he not addressed it during the interview, we would definitely have not hired him when it later came up during a formal background check.
> within a hair of (deservedly) being charged with a felony by the FBI. He basically said he did something stupid 10 years ago, had learned a lesson, made amends, etc
Was it a work-related alleged offense? If not, sounds a little extreme to not hire someone because of an allegation that happened 10 years ago that they weren't even charged with.
Was it a work-related alleged offense? If not, sounds a little extreme to not hire someone because of an allegation that happened 10 years ago that they weren't even charged with.
That makes sense but the question at hand is about the past employer unfairly being a dick, not a legitimate issue with the applicant.
I think it's a tossup whether it should be mentioned in interviews because it can easily be misinterpreted/misread even by good employers to mean there's an issue with this applicant.
I think it's a tossup whether it should be mentioned in interviews because it can easily be misinterpreted/misread even by good employers to mean there's an issue with this applicant.
I think the point is that if #3 backfires at a particular company where you're interviewing, then you probably don't really want to be working for/with those people anyway.
Yeah but unless you're some rockstar engineer living in a high demand area with lots of quality job openings you can quickly find yourself running out of quality options with this strategy backfiring a lot since the top employers can also afford to be as selective as you and go for someone else without your "baggage".
Just keep your dirty laundry private would be my advice.
Just keep your dirty laundry private would be my advice.
if your interviewer/interlocutor has knowledge of this sort of rumor, and you don't get in front of the story, then you're pretty much doomed. if you get out in front of it, there are two possibilities:
(1) they didn't know about it, in which case i, for one, would be impressed that someone had the courage to go out of their way to bring this up-- would make me more likely to believe their side as well, since OP's story, while shitty, is not terribly surprising. sure, there's a chance that i'm getting played, as a potential employer, but it's not as though incompetence as such wouldn't be hard to recognize in the first `k` months of employment.
(2) they did know about it, in which case the interviewee gets the opportunity to defend him/herself, and the employer is allowed to weigh the evidence.
so, i struggle to see how hiding it is better from a game theory perspective. i do acknowledge that if your resume is strong enough as to "speak for itself", then not mentioning it is a reasonable enough gamble-- if they don't bring it up, and reject you anyway, then they are clearly idiots you don't want to work for anyway.
well, i guess I talked myself into a bit of a circle, but i guess i retain the claim that the prior of "hiding your baggage in all circumstances" is a bit more conservative than i think one needs to be.
so, i struggle to see how hiding it is better from a game theory perspective. i do acknowledge that if your resume is strong enough as to "speak for itself", then not mentioning it is a reasonable enough gamble-- if they don't bring it up, and reject you anyway, then they are clearly idiots you don't want to work for anyway.
well, i guess I talked myself into a bit of a circle, but i guess i retain the claim that the prior of "hiding your baggage in all circumstances" is a bit more conservative than i think one needs to be.
I would not address immediately for a variety of reasons. The truth is your story and what happened at previous company probably doesn't matter because they called you in for an interview with or without knowing. If they did not know now you sound less perfect if they did know it probably doesn't matter and if it does they will ask.
> when looking for employment, when relevant, I explicitly mentioned this experience and what came with it, and what I was then looking for in a new company/position/team, so that I was the first to pitch what did happen and how I reacted to it.
It's always said not to mention negative situations with past employers. I've been through some shit along these lines in the past, but at times wish to be honest about what I seek in a place of employment to give comparing perspectives. How did you go about explaining this?
It's always said not to mention negative situations with past employers. I've been through some shit along these lines in the past, but at times wish to be honest about what I seek in a place of employment to give comparing perspectives. How did you go about explaining this?
Well, shit happens, there's no denying about that, whatever HR/recruiting wizards can say.
* Don't put your negative experiences on the fore front.
* But don't hide them either, because:
1. if you do hide them, they might always bite you in the neck later (personally, or professionally);
2. there's a lot to learn here as well, and that's what you need to take the focus on: what you learned from it.
If you can show that you confronted the negative experience, and solved/learned something out of it, you demonstrate a very valuable strengh to your potential employer: humility, courage, resolution.
Plus, that you prefer to bring potential bad news yourself.
That's worth mentioning.
* Don't put your negative experiences on the fore front.
* But don't hide them either, because:
1. if you do hide them, they might always bite you in the neck later (personally, or professionally);
2. there's a lot to learn here as well, and that's what you need to take the focus on: what you learned from it.
If you can show that you confronted the negative experience, and solved/learned something out of it, you demonstrate a very valuable strengh to your potential employer: humility, courage, resolution.
Plus, that you prefer to bring potential bad news yourself.
That's worth mentioning.
Great advice there.
As a hiring manager myself I really hate it when candidates slag off their current/former employeer. It's a real put off. However if you can turn a negative experience into a positive then it shows that you're not just bitter and/or a bad team player but rather that you use all experiences to help enhance your capabilities as a productive employee.
As a hiring manager myself I really hate it when candidates slag off their current/former employeer. It's a real put off. However if you can turn a negative experience into a positive then it shows that you're not just bitter and/or a bad team player but rather that you use all experiences to help enhance your capabilities as a productive employee.
"As a hiring manager myself I really hate it when candidates slag off their current/former employeer. It's a real put off. However if you can turn a negative experience into a positive then it shows that you're not just bitter and/or a bad team player but rather that you use all experiences to help enhance your capabilities as a productive employee."
What's wrong with being bitter when you are wronged by your manager or employer?
"and/or bad team player"
Sounds like blaming a victim to me.
Seriously, imagine you got robbed, beaten and humiliated how would you feel listening to someone telling you that being bitter about that is bad and it's your own fault?
What's wrong with being bitter when you are wronged by your manager or employer?
"and/or bad team player"
Sounds like blaming a victim to me.
Seriously, imagine you got robbed, beaten and humiliated how would you feel listening to someone telling you that being bitter about that is bad and it's your own fault?
The company doesn't care about you and your sad sack stories, it's not your therapist. All it wants to know is if you'll produce more value than you cost (and hopefully more than the other people they're comparing you against).
Being bitter about past employers is a sure fire way to fail an interview (from my personal experience) because a mopey employee is a poor performer, but it's also a lame way to go through life regardless.
Being bitter about past employers is a sure fire way to fail an interview (from my personal experience) because a mopey employee is a poor performer, but it's also a lame way to go through life regardless.
"The company doesn't care about you and your sad sack stories, it's not your therapist. All it wants to know is if you'll produce more value than you cost"
Then maybe it shouldn't ask questions like 'why have you quit your previous job?' and focus on applicant's skills?
What I don't like is presumption that a conflict at previous job is an employee's fault.
Quite a long time ago, when I used to work for a local company, I did some hiring as a team lead and tried hard to avoid prejudice.
Then maybe it shouldn't ask questions like 'why have you quit your previous job?' and focus on applicant's skills?
What I don't like is presumption that a conflict at previous job is an employee's fault.
Quite a long time ago, when I used to work for a local company, I did some hiring as a team lead and tried hard to avoid prejudice.
> Then maybe it shouldn't ask questions like 'why have you quit your previous job?' and focus on applicant's skills?
As a hiring type, I absolutely want to know why, in your words, you left. I also want to see how that lines up with what your references and what former HR people say, and possibly even compare that to something like Glassdoor reviews (if you're a strong candidate, mind you).
It is important. I want to see how they describe the situation they're leaving/left because it allows me to evaluate their ability to comprehend and communicate social/political/team dynamics. Statistically you're not staying with us longer than five (5) years, which means at some point you're going to have to explain why you left me -- and I don't feel like dealing with a shit talker.
Plus an honest, direct answer is different from being blunt. I need workers who are willing to tell me direct, honest truths sometimes.
I.E. "I never really clicked with the team, and found I was struggling personally and professionally to keep up with their changing demands,"
vs.
"They were elitist assholes who changed things on a whim because they thought they were fucking geniuses".
As a hiring type, I absolutely want to know why, in your words, you left. I also want to see how that lines up with what your references and what former HR people say, and possibly even compare that to something like Glassdoor reviews (if you're a strong candidate, mind you).
It is important. I want to see how they describe the situation they're leaving/left because it allows me to evaluate their ability to comprehend and communicate social/political/team dynamics. Statistically you're not staying with us longer than five (5) years, which means at some point you're going to have to explain why you left me -- and I don't feel like dealing with a shit talker.
Plus an honest, direct answer is different from being blunt. I need workers who are willing to tell me direct, honest truths sometimes.
I.E. "I never really clicked with the team, and found I was struggling personally and professionally to keep up with their changing demands,"
vs.
"They were elitist assholes who changed things on a whim because they thought they were fucking geniuses".
And I agree with all that.
What I don't like is presumption that an applicant who gives the first kind of answer, is a bad team player and if he doesn't put the blame on himself he is 'bitter' (which is bad).
What I don't like is presumption that an applicant who gives the first kind of answer, is a bad team player and if he doesn't put the blame on himself he is 'bitter' (which is bad).
I mean, it’s like asking someone “How are you?” And them going into detail about their spastic colon.
In a interview you’re trying to paint the best possible picture of yourself, anything that detracts from that is wasted effort. Why would y’all talk about your shitty previous employer when we can talk about something else that is interesting.
In a interview you’re trying to paint the best possible picture of yourself, anything that detracts from that is wasted effort. Why would y’all talk about your shitty previous employer when we can talk about something else that is interesting.
I don't think you can treat that question like 'how are you'. Otherwise I agree with you.
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Think of it as complaining about your ex-partner, when you are on a first date with someone you've just met.
No one says that your previous company (or ex) wasn't bad and that you are to blame. It's just that people are not interested in your past but more in the future they are going to have with you. If you have 1 hour, you better spend it on advertising yourself and your skills instead of bashing others. You can complain later after you get the job, the new team get to know you better and trust you (and your stories) more.
Okay, I didn't have in mind a situation when an applicant volunteers such information without any need for that.
In the setting you've described I agree with you.
In the setting you've described I agree with you.
My assumption was that this was volunteered information. No, I normally wouldn't ask someone why they left/are looking to leave their current position. Not sure I ever have. It's not really relevant and I wouldn't really expect a straight answer in any case (given that I would mostly not give one).
I've never asked that either.
I guess we won't be having an argument today :)
Not bad-mouthing a former employer shows much more class. I'm interested in hiring someone who can take the world as it is, turn disadvantage in advantage, and keep a positive outlook on tough situations. It also shows that they have good communication skills.
Example: "my last employer screwed me and it was an awful place to work." vs "my last job taught me a lot about the pros and cons of workplace culture, which is why I'm interested in your company now". They are both true statements, but one indicates the prospective employee is upset and holds grudges, while the other shows they are ready to move on to a better job.
Over time they can probably share more about why they left, but with the limited time in an interview it is best to show what they are focused on. Focus on old employer and anger doesn't sit well, while focus on a new potential job and lessons learned is very impressive.
Example: "my last employer screwed me and it was an awful place to work." vs "my last job taught me a lot about the pros and cons of workplace culture, which is why I'm interested in your company now". They are both true statements, but one indicates the prospective employee is upset and holds grudges, while the other shows they are ready to move on to a better job.
Over time they can probably share more about why they left, but with the limited time in an interview it is best to show what they are focused on. Focus on old employer and anger doesn't sit well, while focus on a new potential job and lessons learned is very impressive.
Well, the GP comments says 'don't hide them either' and I suppose it implies answering to the question about leaving previous job.
The first answer in your example is honest, the second one, while technically true, triggers my bullshit detector.
The first answer in your example is honest, the second one, while technically true, triggers my bullshit detector.
Feel free to be as bitter as you want with your friends over beers.
But a job interview is probably not the time or place.
Furthermore, there are often two sides to a story. It's entirely possible that I'll read your complaints as reflecting more about you than your current/former company.
But a job interview is probably not the time or place.
Furthermore, there are often two sides to a story. It's entirely possible that I'll read your complaints as reflecting more about you than your current/former company.
Yes, there is always two sides of the story, I just don't understand where presumption of an employee's fault is coming from.
I'm not sure it's a presumption. But if someone, say, volunteered that "no one at my company sufficiently values my contributions," it at least raises the thought that maybe your contributions weren't nearly as valuable as you thought they were.
More generally, raising gripes about teams/managers/work mostly don't use your interview time to raise positive aspects about yourself and your work even if they aren't necessarily negatives.
More generally, raising gripes about teams/managers/work mostly don't use your interview time to raise positive aspects about yourself and your work even if they aren't necessarily negatives.
And I agree with that too.
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A similar situation happened to me several years ago. My former employer claimed I was involved in a data breach a year after I quit. The FBI raided my home and questioned me for hours about what I knew. I was not involved and had no knowledge of any incident.
I would strongly urge you to retain counsel with a criminal defense attorney and seek to squash this as soon as possible.
When a company claims that someone, especially a former employee, is involved in criminal activity, they will point guns at you and ask questions later. In the eyes of law enforcement, you are presumed guilty.
I would strongly urge you to retain counsel with a criminal defense attorney and seek to squash this as soon as possible.
When a company claims that someone, especially a former employee, is involved in criminal activity, they will point guns at you and ask questions later. In the eyes of law enforcement, you are presumed guilty.
Yes, so some terrible truths:
1. Talk to lawyers, who will probably tell you to talk to no one and to refer LE/legal notices you get to them.
2. Never reach out to your old company about this. You probably should not have done this in the first place, since perversely asserting your innocence often makes you look more guilty (since 'that's exactly what a guilty person would do').
Basically, if this evolves into a legal matter it's out of your hands. Try not to get anxious about this, since rumors at an old company are entirely out of your control. If you're innocent, internal or external investigations should prove so.
1. Talk to lawyers, who will probably tell you to talk to no one and to refer LE/legal notices you get to them.
2. Never reach out to your old company about this. You probably should not have done this in the first place, since perversely asserting your innocence often makes you look more guilty (since 'that's exactly what a guilty person would do').
Basically, if this evolves into a legal matter it's out of your hands. Try not to get anxious about this, since rumors at an old company are entirely out of your control. If you're innocent, internal or external investigations should prove so.
Op here, Thanks for all the advice, its honestly be helpfull and eye opening.
To clear up a few things.
- The comments from the ceo were via text and more "I would of called you if i thought you did something" and "ill talk to them but I dont know what more I can do". TBH I was angry and not exactly cordial in my communication.
- From what I understand the "hack" wasn't my credentials but someone logging in near where I live with the CEO's credentials and changing some settings in the admin. This honestly is what scares me the most... everything in the admin is (or at least was while I was there) soft delete only with 5 minute interval database backups. The action has a potential to rune my life but the actual impact is basically a mild annoyance to the company... at this point I get concerned about sabotage.
- In terms of defamation apparently certain individuals though it be funny to take where I live and put it up on one of the system monitoring screens for the whole company to see. Currently I am seeking counsel to both protect my self and see if this action is something that is worth responding to.
To clear up a few things.
- The comments from the ceo were via text and more "I would of called you if i thought you did something" and "ill talk to them but I dont know what more I can do". TBH I was angry and not exactly cordial in my communication.
- From what I understand the "hack" wasn't my credentials but someone logging in near where I live with the CEO's credentials and changing some settings in the admin. This honestly is what scares me the most... everything in the admin is (or at least was while I was there) soft delete only with 5 minute interval database backups. The action has a potential to rune my life but the actual impact is basically a mild annoyance to the company... at this point I get concerned about sabotage.
- In terms of defamation apparently certain individuals though it be funny to take where I live and put it up on one of the system monitoring screens for the whole company to see. Currently I am seeking counsel to both protect my self and see if this action is something that is worth responding to.
> - In terms of defamation apparently certain individuals though it be funny to take where I live and put it up on one of the system monitoring screens for the whole company to see. Currently I am seeking counsel to both protect my self and see if this action is something that is worth responding to.
Your lawyer will probably want to handle all communication from here on out. I'd also stop posting stuff about the case in a public forum, and possibly start deleting this. Your lawyer will have specific recommendations.
Your lawyer will probably want to handle all communication from here on out. I'd also stop posting stuff about the case in a public forum, and possibly start deleting this. Your lawyer will have specific recommendations.
It could be the CEO making the change and pinning the blame on you. That would seem to be the easiest explanation.
Make sure you tell them that they should contact law enforcement to report the breach. If they don't want to do that that would be a pretty good sign they know exactly who did it and that it wasn't you. If they credibly believed it was you they would have done so already.
Make sure you tell them that they should contact law enforcement to report the breach. If they don't want to do that that would be a pretty good sign they know exactly who did it and that it wasn't you. If they credibly believed it was you they would have done so already.
If it's a big company, couldn't he also get ahead of the story to protect himself and announce the breach via Medium or reaching out to media?
I mean the company already threw him under the bus, might as well transition from 'possible hacker' to 'whistleblower'. People tend to look more favorably on whistleblowers.
But IANAL, so YMMV and what not.
Edit: I'm betting the CEO would rather NOT be known for a data breach, and get that publicity. So it might be a good bartering place for getting a good 'written' recommendation, and some sort of assurance that the CEO if contacted will stick to what he said in the recommendation and not paint the ex-employee in a negative light. Not sure if there's a legal contract for this sort of exchange - but there probably is.
I mean the company already threw him under the bus, might as well transition from 'possible hacker' to 'whistleblower'. People tend to look more favorably on whistleblowers.
But IANAL, so YMMV and what not.
Edit: I'm betting the CEO would rather NOT be known for a data breach, and get that publicity. So it might be a good bartering place for getting a good 'written' recommendation, and some sort of assurance that the CEO if contacted will stick to what he said in the recommendation and not paint the ex-employee in a negative light. Not sure if there's a legal contract for this sort of exchange - but there probably is.
No, that would get him into even hotter water, especially if there is a 'non disparaging' clause in the termination papers. You are not a lawyer, so don't give advice that will most likely lead to the OP being sued by his former employer, especially not an employer that has already been shown to be all too ready to blame the OP for their misery.
Why would you know the CEO's credentials? Even if you did I would start pointing that out very loudly. At least until any blamers backed back into their holes.
Yeah... geolocation or IP addresses can be spoofed. But if it was the CEO's credentials, why in the world would you be getting the blame?
Looks like the kind of employer you might not want to use for references anyway, but I'd gather as much evidence of that gossip as possible, talk to a lawyer and have him/her reach the company to cease propagating these gossip, which could as well be considered defamation. If they believe they're been wronged and something wrong actually happened, then they should bring those facts with proofs to back them up.
> talk to a lawyer
This a thousand times over. There are two options here:
1. Your employer wants a scapegoat and is using you
2. Your employer actually believes it was you
This a thousand times over. There are two options here:
1. Your employer wants a scapegoat and is using you
2. Your employer actually believes it was you
I don’t think a lawyer will impact the water cooler.
Obviously not, but charges associated with 'hacking' could lead to jail time. Rumors have a way of becoming problems when the wrong people get wind of them. Lawyering up is the smart thing to do (at very least a consultation).
and it will cost you a ton. I love when people immediately jump to "lawyer up" like that's just nothing.
Most law firms here in NL will not charge for a 'potential intake' of about 30 minutes.
Good lawyers explain your options, risks and costs.
I have never been burnt, and I have spent very little money this way.
Good lawyers explain your options, risks and costs.
I have never been burnt, and I have spent very little money this way.
Not necessarily a ton and he did write "currently have meetings with attorneys on how to protect myself." If it is really just hearing through the grapevine that there's some water cooler gossip, probably not a lot to be done in any case. On the other hand, a "knock it off" sort of letter probably wouldn't hurt and it provides a paper trail if anything comes of this in the future and/or the company has made some sort of formal accusation, e.g. via email, internally.
lawyers cost money too. companies don't want to use their law resources for something like this. sometimes a letter on a law firms letterhead with harsh words is enough to at least get the company to take action. this probably won't cost you more than $1k, which if you believe your career is at stake is far less than future income.
Exactly - a scary letter should be enough to get the CEO to call the offending employees into his office and tell them to knock it off, as they may be opening the company up to liability. Any sane CEO will see that there's zero upside to allowing these rumors to continue and plenty of downside.
How do you define "a ton"? Midway through my career I worked in an employment litigation office, just to sit down with an Associate (capital A) for 30 minutes to an hour, consultations ran from free to quite comparatively affordable considering the cost of going all-in on litigating the affair.
If there's talk going on inside the walls of a former employer that could jeopardize someone's career and future earnings potential, I think a consultation at minimum is prudent.
If there's talk going on inside the walls of a former employer that could jeopardize someone's career and future earnings potential, I think a consultation at minimum is prudent.
I have been in the same situation a few times, even at the company I still work at.
The truth is, it's in no one's best interest to drag this out. They'll do an investigation and only if they have solid evidence will anything come of it. In my case, I did nothing wrong and there was no evidence. Someone accused me of something I didn't do or coincidence(s) led to me being investigated (common in the area I work, actually).
Nothing came of it, because nothing happened on my end. However, it was a nerve-racking experience. Especially, because you never know if something is an accident or mistakenly evaluated.
In a case I'll share, we used a ruby on rails scaffold to create a web app. Unfortunately, it had a mailer in there and looked like we could send emails out. It wasn't active and all generic code "hello world", but you can see how people freaked out. Luckily, those investigating dug into the code and evaluated it, realizing nothing was connected.
In any case, if you did nothing, I'd put your odds at 99.9% chance nothing happens. In the 0.1% chance the company does something, they'll have the burden of proof and their customers will find out. Accusations do not prove guilt. The company would likely be more harmfully impacted than you will and you'll be able to provide a defense to the public record.
The truth is, it's in no one's best interest to drag this out. They'll do an investigation and only if they have solid evidence will anything come of it. In my case, I did nothing wrong and there was no evidence. Someone accused me of something I didn't do or coincidence(s) led to me being investigated (common in the area I work, actually).
Nothing came of it, because nothing happened on my end. However, it was a nerve-racking experience. Especially, because you never know if something is an accident or mistakenly evaluated.
In a case I'll share, we used a ruby on rails scaffold to create a web app. Unfortunately, it had a mailer in there and looked like we could send emails out. It wasn't active and all generic code "hello world", but you can see how people freaked out. Luckily, those investigating dug into the code and evaluated it, realizing nothing was connected.
In any case, if you did nothing, I'd put your odds at 99.9% chance nothing happens. In the 0.1% chance the company does something, they'll have the burden of proof and their customers will find out. Accusations do not prove guilt. The company would likely be more harmfully impacted than you will and you'll be able to provide a defense to the public record.
>I reached out to the CEO and basically the first question whas who was it to leak this and then basicly a statement that the company did not accuse me of anything and there is nothing that can be done about the gossip.
If it was a formal statement then you have nothing to worry about. If the slander is getting to you mentally, you could seek legal counsel but sounds like they can't actually do anything to you
If it was not formal, and there is a chance they can take you to court, then you need to get legal counsel, as you need to prep for defending yourself in court. If, as you say, they should not have anything which points to you being the malicious one here, then the hardest part is going to be the lawyer fees.
If it was a formal statement then you have nothing to worry about. If the slander is getting to you mentally, you could seek legal counsel but sounds like they can't actually do anything to you
If it was not formal, and there is a chance they can take you to court, then you need to get legal counsel, as you need to prep for defending yourself in court. If, as you say, they should not have anything which points to you being the malicious one here, then the hardest part is going to be the lawyer fees.
Well if they even acknowledge it to you in writing you are in the clear. If they had real "proof" they would not have said this..
You could ask them formally to stop the slander and inform them that you will take legal action if you receive any more word of these rumours..
You could ask them formally to stop the slander and inform them that you will take legal action if you receive any more word of these rumours..
Lawyering up just in case might be wise.
I don't know if this was your intention, but you posted this under your real name. Under the same account you posted an article that gives away your ex-employer.
If it is intentional, then why not say the company in the post?
If it is intentional, then why not say the company in the post?
interesting coincidence that their product can be viewed as basically a professional gossip platform :)
One can hardly prevent gossip. You can do everything perfect and still get gossip... I would just move on and do quality work in another company...
Get someone to ask them for a reference for you and see what it says.
Assuming this is in the US, it's exceedingly unlikely the company would risk putting a negative reference in writing. OP is unlikely to get more than a confirmation of dates worked though.
Hopefully. Tangential anecdote time here.
I was terminated from my long time employer over what they called "poor performance" that was my boss compiling an actual "dossier" on me - everything from LJ posts from my ex-wife to WHOIS info to claim/show I was moonlighting (one, my photography business), a blog from a friend thanking me for giving him advice on a startup. Basically a hit list - he'd gone off the deep end on a few things, not just me, divorcing his wife, father dying, endless arguments with business partner / co-owner of the company.
He was adamant about a little sit down/FU session with me where he'd show me this damning dossier of all my "misdeeds".
Thankfully the partner got a lawyer involved who told them, in essence, "WTF? No.".
Apropos of both the state we were in being "at-will", and my employment contract / handbook having no provisions about moonlighting etc., the LJ posts being 10+ years old, etc., he basically said "As soon as you start showing this stuff it becomes somewhat defensible - he says 'actually, no, blah blah blah'."
"Just say that today is your last day. Thank you."
My boss was vindictive though. He wanted to contest my filing Unemployment paperwork about my "poor performance". He also wanted to withhold my final paychecks pending "return of all equipment, etc.".
I literally saw in a frozen screen glitch in Zoom the lawyer's response to him on that second one, verbatim.
"No. Do not do that. You cannot do that.".
Thankfully, for me, the partner and lawyer were the voices of reason, or it could have been difficult.
In terms of looking for a new job, more gray - I never stated that I was still at that job, nor did I let any question about it go unanswered or unclear (no lies by omission), other than just not specifically saying "I was terminated from job X on day Y".
I was terminated from my long time employer over what they called "poor performance" that was my boss compiling an actual "dossier" on me - everything from LJ posts from my ex-wife to WHOIS info to claim/show I was moonlighting (one, my photography business), a blog from a friend thanking me for giving him advice on a startup. Basically a hit list - he'd gone off the deep end on a few things, not just me, divorcing his wife, father dying, endless arguments with business partner / co-owner of the company.
He was adamant about a little sit down/FU session with me where he'd show me this damning dossier of all my "misdeeds".
Thankfully the partner got a lawyer involved who told them, in essence, "WTF? No.".
Apropos of both the state we were in being "at-will", and my employment contract / handbook having no provisions about moonlighting etc., the LJ posts being 10+ years old, etc., he basically said "As soon as you start showing this stuff it becomes somewhat defensible - he says 'actually, no, blah blah blah'."
"Just say that today is your last day. Thank you."
My boss was vindictive though. He wanted to contest my filing Unemployment paperwork about my "poor performance". He also wanted to withhold my final paychecks pending "return of all equipment, etc.".
I literally saw in a frozen screen glitch in Zoom the lawyer's response to him on that second one, verbatim.
"No. Do not do that. You cannot do that.".
Thankfully, for me, the partner and lawyer were the voices of reason, or it could have been difficult.
In terms of looking for a new job, more gray - I never stated that I was still at that job, nor did I let any question about it go unanswered or unclear (no lies by omission), other than just not specifically saying "I was terminated from job X on day Y".
It wouldn't have to be in writing. Have a friend call up, say they are from "Tech Co" and "Would you recommend Joe Shmoe?"
Very easy.
Very easy.
Many companies will share "eligible for rehire" status.
Is that legal in the US? And what is the sharing mechanism? Word of mouth?
Varies by state, but legal in most places. Big companies have automated reference checking. Via truework or theworknumber, or similar. Which can also verify salary...urgh.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-...
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-...
>Which can also verify salary...urgh.
This seems so vulnerable to data entry mistakes that such data might just be completely useless.
What happens when stated salary doesn't match salary verifier numbers? Do you just not hire that person?
This seems so vulnerable to data entry mistakes that such data might just be completely useless.
What happens when stated salary doesn't match salary verifier numbers? Do you just not hire that person?
Salary means a lot of different things anyway. If someone asks me (and I need to provide something), I'm going to put down some rough total comp number that's at the high end of what I earn in a typical year. It's not going to match whatever is in the system as my nominal "salary" which really isn't all that relevant.
It is still irritating, because current salary shouldn't drive anything about proposed salary. Employers should have to provide low/median/high for employees of the same title in exchange :)
>Which can also verify salary...urgh.
Isn't that illegal in several states, including California?
Isn't that illegal in several states, including California?
They can't ask the candidate in California, but they can use a service. San Francisco has a law that they need permission from the candidate first, but it seems fine anywhere else in the state.
Generally speaking employment references are free speech protected by the first amendment. So defamation isn't allowed, and any state's law would need to be tested in court for you to really believe in it.
See if you can get them to demonstrate their false accusations by getting them to state that to a reference. Without that, you have no material damages to show, with it you have a case. Talk to an attorney. I’d be surprised if they would be so foolish as to try to wreck your future employment prospects over something you didn’t do.
The OP likely already has material damages to point to. Reputation loss falls under speculative damage, as loss of a business or job opportunity may happen in the future due to his previous employer's actions.
As others in this thread have advised, hire a lawyer and discuss what your options are.
As others in this thread have advised, hire a lawyer and discuss what your options are.
You should ask your friends if there is any hard proof of such a statement, like an email. If so, that could potentially be grounds for a defamation suit.
I never had an old employer accuse me, but I did have a consulting client do almost exactly the same thing. It boiled down to a few people at the company that didn't like that we pointed out a lot of security issues on things which were not our direct work but was theirs. Basically we found a few major holes in a couple of their systems we had to do some integration work with and we documented the holes and gave it to the company as part of our deliverable. Well like after 6 months post our exit they had a breach through one of those systems. One of the PM's and a couple of devs accused my team of the breach because someone had used one of the open doors we identified. Literally they had an open port through the firewall to a database system that was unprotected (no password even) and had client data in it, yea Mongo's stupid default no user/password back then.
Essentially I did the same thing you did, reached out to the CEO, he denied they blamed me or my team and said there was nothing he could do about a few "bad apples" running their mouths. I disagreed and pointed out that what they say in a professional capacity about myself or my team as a result of our time there was something he can and should concern himself with. In the end, I did what everyone here is telling you, get a lawyer. It cost me ~$500 to protect our name and put an end to it, essentially we sent a cease and desist letter and a some wording on potential damages given our work and what was being said. That letter only got one response which was they had addressed the employees and agreed my team had nothing to do with their breach. That was all I wanted, and it is what you should get because if it ever comes up you can show that to whoever asks. Took less than a week to resolve and we did work for that company again like 2 years later, guess who no longer worked there, the "bad apples" were all gone, but most of the rest of the team was still around including the CEO who brought us back. So it didn't cause us any damage long term with anyone other than we probably pissed off a few people that were already running their mouths a bit.
One last point. I have had people bad mouth me for a number of things over my career. Not once did it ever really hurt me professionally, mainly because I had a track record showing none of what they said was true. As a consultant I had lots of people pissed saying we were there to displace them, replace them etc etc (even old developers saying that cause they had ancient skillsets). I had articles in a few papers how we were destroying jobs through automation of services of a long term employer in a small town. None of it hurt us, it hurt our pride/feelings a little cause we knew what they were saying was false, but in the end none of it ever affected us professionally. In some cases it actually helped us get other work partially because people saw we didn't react and get defensive or go off the deep end. I am not advocating you don't defend your professional reputation, but just realize there is a time and place to, and a time and place to just let it drop.
Essentially I did the same thing you did, reached out to the CEO, he denied they blamed me or my team and said there was nothing he could do about a few "bad apples" running their mouths. I disagreed and pointed out that what they say in a professional capacity about myself or my team as a result of our time there was something he can and should concern himself with. In the end, I did what everyone here is telling you, get a lawyer. It cost me ~$500 to protect our name and put an end to it, essentially we sent a cease and desist letter and a some wording on potential damages given our work and what was being said. That letter only got one response which was they had addressed the employees and agreed my team had nothing to do with their breach. That was all I wanted, and it is what you should get because if it ever comes up you can show that to whoever asks. Took less than a week to resolve and we did work for that company again like 2 years later, guess who no longer worked there, the "bad apples" were all gone, but most of the rest of the team was still around including the CEO who brought us back. So it didn't cause us any damage long term with anyone other than we probably pissed off a few people that were already running their mouths a bit.
One last point. I have had people bad mouth me for a number of things over my career. Not once did it ever really hurt me professionally, mainly because I had a track record showing none of what they said was true. As a consultant I had lots of people pissed saying we were there to displace them, replace them etc etc (even old developers saying that cause they had ancient skillsets). I had articles in a few papers how we were destroying jobs through automation of services of a long term employer in a small town. None of it hurt us, it hurt our pride/feelings a little cause we knew what they were saying was false, but in the end none of it ever affected us professionally. In some cases it actually helped us get other work partially because people saw we didn't react and get defensive or go off the deep end. I am not advocating you don't defend your professional reputation, but just realize there is a time and place to, and a time and place to just let it drop.
OP this is what you do... Lawyer up and get them to throw paper.
This is outrageous, and they are going to respond with "we took care of it" and that letter is now GOLD.
I also want to back up what the above poster said about being a consultant and folks badmouthing you. It is much less meaningful than you suspect or think, and in some cases it can be a good thing.
This is outrageous, and they are going to respond with "we took care of it" and that letter is now GOLD.
I also want to back up what the above poster said about being a consultant and folks badmouthing you. It is much less meaningful than you suspect or think, and in some cases it can be a good thing.
Been there many times and I think, that it's a bit normal when leaving a company/a powerful position within. People blame always the leavers for their own mistakes or being in a crappy company. Then, the biggest challenge is to let go and accept that you cannot do anything. Of course you could 'fight back'. And tbh, I still don't know what's better.
Fighting back is a hassle, proving defamation is hard, getting lawyers is expensive, suing and the following process can take years. And the outcome? From an economic view, it's always a no, also the distraction from stuff that really matters, for what? Fighting is great, some like it a lot, but it costs so much energy. Moving on feels more sane. However, in the long run, there's always a bitter aftertaste, just an odd feeling that you lost a fight. This feeling will stay with yout for quite some time but it is often just in your head. Maybe the thing you are worrying about is not that big and not worth thinking one more sec about. You just don't know.
If there's a fool-proof way to fight + win something significant + in a short time frame, fight. Otherwise, get busy, get on new projects and once you are on a better position/in a new company you forgot them anyway.
So, asking us was a good first step to get a bit busy, get an achievement (getting on the front page) and out of racing thoughts. Now, keep on, write the next Ask HN about some tech, ask 10 peers for a coffee after new years eve, build a gaming pc, do whatever keeps you busy.
Edit: Not sure if you can trust the CEO but from what he wrote he sounds ok/friendly and he doesn't care (which is good, because if one of them would decide to sue you it would be him).
Fighting back is a hassle, proving defamation is hard, getting lawyers is expensive, suing and the following process can take years. And the outcome? From an economic view, it's always a no, also the distraction from stuff that really matters, for what? Fighting is great, some like it a lot, but it costs so much energy. Moving on feels more sane. However, in the long run, there's always a bitter aftertaste, just an odd feeling that you lost a fight. This feeling will stay with yout for quite some time but it is often just in your head. Maybe the thing you are worrying about is not that big and not worth thinking one more sec about. You just don't know.
If there's a fool-proof way to fight + win something significant + in a short time frame, fight. Otherwise, get busy, get on new projects and once you are on a better position/in a new company you forgot them anyway.
So, asking us was a good first step to get a bit busy, get an achievement (getting on the front page) and out of racing thoughts. Now, keep on, write the next Ask HN about some tech, ask 10 peers for a coffee after new years eve, build a gaming pc, do whatever keeps you busy.
Edit: Not sure if you can trust the CEO but from what he wrote he sounds ok/friendly and he doesn't care (which is good, because if one of them would decide to sue you it would be him).
See if you can get your friends to put their statements in an email or text message. After that, consult a lawyer with the evidence and perhaps sue for slander. I wouldn't take this lightly. This could damage your changes of getting a job in the future if a potential employer calls them.
Announcing that they're so incompetent that they failed to revoke a former employee's credentials is pretty dense.
Talking to lawyers is the right thing to do. You don't want this gossip to become a legal issue for you. Collect detailed notes on when and where you turned in hardware, when / what credentials you had revoked, and to whom you delivered these things and informed about them. Just because you didn't perpetrate the hack doesn't mean that someone else wasn't using your hardware for something nefarious. I normally insist that a work laptop be wiped (obviously with all relevant work product handed off first) before i turn it in.
Talking to lawyers is the right thing to do. You don't want this gossip to become a legal issue for you. Collect detailed notes on when and where you turned in hardware, when / what credentials you had revoked, and to whom you delivered these things and informed about them. Just because you didn't perpetrate the hack doesn't mean that someone else wasn't using your hardware for something nefarious. I normally insist that a work laptop be wiped (obviously with all relevant work product handed off first) before i turn it in.
Legal protection is a great start. I would also say that most hiring managers understand that there are crappy companies out there, and that doesn't mean that all employees coming from them are bad news. I'd suggest for future interviews using the company as a reference, being direct that there was a issue with workplace culture and that you are excited about the culture of the prospective company. I would also recommend having some notes written down about the issue in the case that the hiring manager brings it up; if they know about it, they will probably ask, and if not then they probably never will.
Wow. Something similar happened to me a while ago, and I'm surprised and relived by the replies in this thread to find out that I'm not alone. I thought it was just me.
My advice: Ignore it. There's enough churn on both the company and personnel level in the industry that it will all be soon forgotten. Tech is not a close-knit group of people who know other people. It's millions of people joining and leaving companies, and hundreds of thousands of companies Opening and closing each day.
The gossip is just bird poop in the paint can. Eventually after enough stirring it will disappear.
My advice: Ignore it. There's enough churn on both the company and personnel level in the industry that it will all be soon forgotten. Tech is not a close-knit group of people who know other people. It's millions of people joining and leaving companies, and hundreds of thousands of companies Opening and closing each day.
The gossip is just bird poop in the paint can. Eventually after enough stirring it will disappear.
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Have your attorney contact them.
The CEO should issue you an apology and they should make an internal announcement explicitly stating that you are not suspected of any wrongdoing, and that it is wrong to accuse you further.
The CEO should issue you an apology and they should make an internal announcement explicitly stating that you are not suspected of any wrongdoing, and that it is wrong to accuse you further.
Are you sure you're not just overreacting over what's essentially tongue-in-cheek internal speculation based entirely on coincidence of your departure and the breach?
There's already some good advice in the thread for the OP.
I'll add-on that this should not have been an issue in the first place. The company should be protecting their customers better than this. It is already a failure of the process when employees are _maybe_ revoking their own creds on the way out. Not to mention what other issues actually led to the breach.
I'd also suspect a current employee (I feel sick even typing that out) before one that has moved on months ago.
I'll add-on that this should not have been an issue in the first place. The company should be protecting their customers better than this. It is already a failure of the process when employees are _maybe_ revoking their own creds on the way out. Not to mention what other issues actually led to the breach.
I'd also suspect a current employee (I feel sick even typing that out) before one that has moved on months ago.
That sounds horrible. It might be best to talk to a lawyer, just in case.
In my case, a former client accused me of not giving them the source of a product released earlier. The old product was in the git history after a pivot, which I had given instruction on how to get back to a release tag. Luckily I could quote old emails that I sent to them.
In my case, a former client accused me of not giving them the source of a product released earlier. The old product was in the git history after a pivot, which I had given instruction on how to get back to a release tag. Luckily I could quote old emails that I sent to them.
In he-said-she-said situations, have a good story. Deflect:
> Ha, yeah, I did no such thing, but they certainly want a scapegoat, don't they? So, when I was there, lemme tell you about their data security practices...
Gain empathy:
> Right, it's understandable that they'd want to blame somebody. And who better than me, walking out the door, going to spend more time with my family?
And minimize:
> But yeah, there's no real meat to their complaint. No attorneys or anything. They're just upset that they got caught shirking their legal responsibilities.
You might be able to hand-pick a reference from your old team, but you're right to not automatically volunteer your old manager's contact information.
I have to be good at telling stories like this. My first employer used legal strongarm tactics to disenfranchise me of thousands of commits of code, and my second employer tried to pin a sexual-harrassment claim on me and then fired me after I asked their head of HR to follow the law. Employers are dicks. Tell a story that lulls them to sleep.
> Ha, yeah, I did no such thing, but they certainly want a scapegoat, don't they? So, when I was there, lemme tell you about their data security practices...
Gain empathy:
> Right, it's understandable that they'd want to blame somebody. And who better than me, walking out the door, going to spend more time with my family?
And minimize:
> But yeah, there's no real meat to their complaint. No attorneys or anything. They're just upset that they got caught shirking their legal responsibilities.
You might be able to hand-pick a reference from your old team, but you're right to not automatically volunteer your old manager's contact information.
I have to be good at telling stories like this. My first employer used legal strongarm tactics to disenfranchise me of thousands of commits of code, and my second employer tried to pin a sexual-harrassment claim on me and then fired me after I asked their head of HR to follow the law. Employers are dicks. Tell a story that lulls them to sleep.
> lemme tell you about their data security practices...
Yikes. As a sibling comment notes, this is a red flag. It actually makes you sound guilty -- especially if you share details about weaknesses in your security. That alone might be criminal, depending on circumstances.
Yikes. As a sibling comment notes, this is a red flag. It actually makes you sound guilty -- especially if you share details about weaknesses in your security. That alone might be criminal, depending on circumstances.
I disagree with your 1st suggestion. When hiring someone, I expect them to have a clear, concise, mature explanation. Gossiping in response with “lemme tell you about their...” is a big red flag to me. I don’t want to hire a blabber mouth. I think an appropriate answer is more in line with your second and third comments. I think it is fine to say “I left months before they had this problem. Perhaps they are looking for a scape goat and I’m convenient. I’d be happy to discuss my opinions of security design in general, but I won’t discuss specifics of what was done at that company while I was there. I may not have agreed with their choices. I’ve made the choice to leave there”
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https://www.fastcompany.com/90304317/a-male-ctos-lessons-on-...
"5 things I’ve learned working with a women-dominated engineering team"
Make that six things that you have learned...
"5 things I’ve learned working with a women-dominated engineering team"
Make that six things that you have learned...
You need a lawyer to send a cease and desist letter for defamation.
> was a set of data breaches on the platform and the internal answer was to not announce it and put the blame on me
In Europe this could be a violation of GDPR not to report it. If so, they would hurt themselves more by spreading this.
https://gdpr-info.eu/art-33-gdpr/
In Europe this could be a violation of GDPR not to report it. If so, they would hurt themselves more by spreading this.
https://gdpr-info.eu/art-33-gdpr/
So in the US, for software engineering jobs outside of DoD related stuff...I have yet to be asked for references (even then I don't think I was for being hired, just for the clearance, and that was more personal than professional). I would actually view being asked for them as a warning sign, given how useless they are (speaking as a hiring manager).
I wouldn't worry about it from that perspective. If you need to you can point out that the company hasn't spoken to the police even when you reached out to them with concern over it, or retained legal counsel, or etc...but chances are really good it's going to be a non-issue for future employment.
If they do eventually reach out to police, and assert it was you, it will be more interesting. That said, it doesn't sound like the kind of thing where they'd have a particularly compelling case.
I wouldn't worry about it from that perspective. If you need to you can point out that the company hasn't spoken to the police even when you reached out to them with concern over it, or retained legal counsel, or etc...but chances are really good it's going to be a non-issue for future employment.
If they do eventually reach out to police, and assert it was you, it will be more interesting. That said, it doesn't sound like the kind of thing where they'd have a particularly compelling case.
Same in Poland - I've never heard of anyone asking for references here (at least not in IT). You need to bring some paperwork from the companies you worked for in the past, but it's for administrative purposes only, you do this after you are hired.
I ended up quiting about 2 months ago to focus on relaxing during the holidays and spending time with my family (did not take a vacation) before seeking a less intense position.
Some old members of my team have come forward to inform me that their was a set of data breaches on the platform and the internal answer was to not announce it and put the blame on me. From what I am told their is no prooof other then a geo location that points to where I (and multiple other employees) live.
I reached out to the CEO and basically the first question whas who was it to leak this and then basicly a statement that the company did not accuse me of anything and there is nothing that can be done about the gossip. When I left the company I took every precaution to revoke my credentials and return my equipment promptly. I now know I can not use anyone at my current employer as a reference and feel these false accusation will greatly damage my future employment opportunities. I am currently have meetings with attorneys on how to protect myself but figured I ask the community if anyone has ever gone though this.