Coronavirus Lockdown in Wuhan Is a 'Living Hell'(npr.org)
npr.org
Coronavirus Lockdown in Wuhan Is a 'Living Hell'
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/03/809965742/personal-essay-from-wuhan-living-in-hell
66 comments
I don't think the corruption and bureaucratic incompetency in today's United States lessens the story about that in China. At least we're allowed to talk about it.
I think US gov has done quite well by cut air traffic with China after CCP announced that there is a plague going on around Jan 2x. But the problem is the plague has gone on at least 2 months in China until that time, so even North Korean which closed its border immediately after CCP announcement now has an outbreak. Before CCP made the announcement they suppressed info as much as possible and did nothing to control the spread. Until around the Jan 2x when it can not hide it anymore. Even after this, CCP still made WHO to lower the alert level of the world. Today's situation is the sole result of CCP's wrong doings and they should do a full accounting of it in the world court.
Two months before January would be November. What source do you have saying that the outbreak started already then?
By two months I mean until the time the CCP made public announcement around Jan 2x, relative to the reported date of first patient 2019-12-01, which is supported by CCP's own media (for eg: http://www.bjnews.com.cn/news/2020/02/23/693805.html).
A little bit off topic: for me, this first case looks very impossible to be the first one, and it further supports my theory that wuhan virus is a bio-weapon created by CCP and got leaked. That is why it is so hard to pinpoint the zero patient because CCP is hiding this info.
A little bit off topic: for me, this first case looks very impossible to be the first one, and it further supports my theory that wuhan virus is a bio-weapon created by CCP and got leaked. That is why it is so hard to pinpoint the zero patient because CCP is hiding this info.
The Virologists that host the TWIV podcast cited some studies suggesting that the first cases were likely in October or November, which went undetected.
Officially, there's been no outbreak in North Korea.
Of course, there's no way to trust NK on this, but there's been no confirmation of cases in NK by another source (I'm discounting South Korean anti-NK propaganda as an unreliable source).
Of course, there's no way to trust NK on this, but there's been no confirmation of cases in NK by another source (I'm discounting South Korean anti-NK propaganda as an unreliable source).
People within China are allowed to talk about it too. The story is that it was the officials in Wuhan who did the bad things and they have already all been sacked if not charged.
They are not pointing the blame at the national government nor the ideology but a regional government and corrupt individuals. Indeed the story is that the national government helped the people against the corruption.
I find it fascinating.
They are not pointing the blame at the national government nor the ideology but a regional government and corrupt individuals. Indeed the story is that the national government helped the people against the corruption.
I find it fascinating.
Despite the title, the heart of the article is really about a Wuhan man's disenchantment with his authoritarian government, by way of the Coronavirus crisis
It is not off the mark, if the CCP had been better about seeing the truth they could have eliminated the virus when only 100 people had it. Instead they suppressed news of it while doing nothing, all while the virus ran around getting the better of them. It is too bad for the CCP that the Chinese people are not the only things in China to control!
Honest question though: Which country would handle it better?
A commenter below mentioned the US, but the reaction here in Germany has also been ridiculously slow and very lacking in both the political department as well as healthcare officials.
An overwhelming majority of NHS medics doesn't think the UK is prepared either. [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/02/coronavirus-...)
Our lower population densities and much higher hygene standards make it less likely for a breakout to start here, but our dealing with a pandemic is at least as frighteningly incompetent as the chinese response.
A commenter below mentioned the US, but the reaction here in Germany has also been ridiculously slow and very lacking in both the political department as well as healthcare officials.
An overwhelming majority of NHS medics doesn't think the UK is prepared either. [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/02/coronavirus-...)
Our lower population densities and much higher hygene standards make it less likely for a breakout to start here, but our dealing with a pandemic is at least as frighteningly incompetent as the chinese response.
From the article: "From former schoolmates who now work in the medical profession, I learned that medical workers were not given medical supplies and were exposed to a risk of death. Many people wonder: Why didn't they go on strike? It is because they were informed that if they went on strike, their licenses to practice medicine would be revoked and their family members' jobs would be affected."
I'm sure that this kind of thing will not happen in Germany and UK.
It's not really the handling of the virus situation, it's his realisation that he's living in a totalitarian state that he's writing about.
I'm sure that this kind of thing will not happen in Germany and UK.
It's not really the handling of the virus situation, it's his realisation that he's living in a totalitarian state that he's writing about.
* it's his realization that the totalitarian state he's living in isn't worth the supposed benefits
We probably won't know until a year or so. Europe at least will treat everyone, so you won't have people avoiding doctors/hospitals because they can't pay.
It's not really like this in Europe, not sure what made you think all medical care was free ?
There are many cases where you are left on the side of the road in Europe too.
It's certainly better than in the US, but far from free for everyone.
I don't know of a single case of someone going bankrupt here due to medical bils. Feel free to supply examples to the contrary, I'm quite interested in that.
It can vary country by country, as you'd imagine it would seeing as Europe is a large place, but it's so such a crazy notion to say that you'll most likely find some care in Europe if you're unwell and poor - definitely more so than in the US.
Maybe it's that I lived in Italy for like 15 years?
I realize that 'Europe' is broader and there are diverse systems, but by and large - and especially where there is a huge public interest in people healthy - their systems are going to take care of people.
I realize that 'Europe' is broader and there are diverse systems, but by and large - and especially where there is a huge public interest in people healthy - their systems are going to take care of people.
I think over in Singapore, it was handled pretty well.
I live in Singapore, and so far they have indeed handled it quite well.
What is really needed in a situation like this is transparency, and they are providing this: https://www.moh.gov.sg/
They are also doing very good work when it comes to tracing cases and determining who has been in contact with them and ensuring that they are also tested.
There are special clinics set up where people with symptoms can go. This is to avoid having patients infect every single clinic all over the country.
In places where people gather, such as office buildings, there are temperature screenings, typically using IR cameras. I read somewhere that these catch about 50% of cases.
If you're a visitor to an office building, you have to sign a health declaration form, including contact information and declare where in the building you will be going. This information is used if a case is discovered and they need to trace who has been in contact with the patient.
When you take a taxi you are adviced to go to a web site where you can fill in your contact information as well as the license plate number of the taxi. This is again used for tracing if needed.
Some companies have implemented work-from-home policies where the teams are split with half the team working from home. This is done because if a case is discovered in a company, everybody will evacuate, tracing will be done on all people and the entire office sanitised. If only half the team was in the office at the time, this reduces the impact on the business.
For the most part, except the things mentioned above, things are pretty normal. There are of course less tourists, and a lot of businesses are hurting because of that. Singapore usually has a lot of Chinese tourists.
People are of course hoping that things will be better soon. I didn't live in Singapore during SARS, but I have been told that it lasted several months.
What is really needed in a situation like this is transparency, and they are providing this: https://www.moh.gov.sg/
They are also doing very good work when it comes to tracing cases and determining who has been in contact with them and ensuring that they are also tested.
There are special clinics set up where people with symptoms can go. This is to avoid having patients infect every single clinic all over the country.
In places where people gather, such as office buildings, there are temperature screenings, typically using IR cameras. I read somewhere that these catch about 50% of cases.
If you're a visitor to an office building, you have to sign a health declaration form, including contact information and declare where in the building you will be going. This information is used if a case is discovered and they need to trace who has been in contact with the patient.
When you take a taxi you are adviced to go to a web site where you can fill in your contact information as well as the license plate number of the taxi. This is again used for tracing if needed.
Some companies have implemented work-from-home policies where the teams are split with half the team working from home. This is done because if a case is discovered in a company, everybody will evacuate, tracing will be done on all people and the entire office sanitised. If only half the team was in the office at the time, this reduces the impact on the business.
For the most part, except the things mentioned above, things are pretty normal. There are of course less tourists, and a lot of businesses are hurting because of that. Singapore usually has a lot of Chinese tourists.
People are of course hoping that things will be better soon. I didn't live in Singapore during SARS, but I have been told that it lasted several months.
I think I read that South Korea is doing a great job, despite being hit hard
There's also the potluck dinner with what sounds like all of the city...
https://www.ibtimes.sg/focus-wuhan-potluck-dinner-cpc-fires-...
(midway down the article)
I think we may not have even heard about the virus if not for this
Edit: relevant portion:
Ill-advised potluck dinner helped spread the virus
Another major perceived lapse of the Wuhan party authorities was their decision to let a large public feast go ahead in January despite the fact that there were clear signs that an epidemic was gathering pace. The local government had controversially allowed nearly 40,000 families to gather and share food as part of the Chinese New Year festival even as deaths from the virus were increasing.
It later turned out that at least 10 cases of coronavirus infection were reported from among the participants of the feast on January 18, raising fears that the event must have accelerated the spread of the infection in Wuhan.
https://www.ibtimes.sg/focus-wuhan-potluck-dinner-cpc-fires-...
(midway down the article)
I think we may not have even heard about the virus if not for this
Edit: relevant portion:
Ill-advised potluck dinner helped spread the virus
Another major perceived lapse of the Wuhan party authorities was their decision to let a large public feast go ahead in January despite the fact that there were clear signs that an epidemic was gathering pace. The local government had controversially allowed nearly 40,000 families to gather and share food as part of the Chinese New Year festival even as deaths from the virus were increasing.
It later turned out that at least 10 cases of coronavirus infection were reported from among the participants of the feast on January 18, raising fears that the event must have accelerated the spread of the infection in Wuhan.
And now CDC is doing the exact same thing in US by not testing extensively, even though they are aware of community spreads. My friends in Seattle area are in great fear.
There were news that China's health authorities in Hubei and Beijing told local testing companies to return positive samples or destroy those samples during the crucial early days of the spread of the virus[1].
[1]https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/how-early-signs-...
Political and censorship considerations aside, one possible reason for doing this could've been to ensure that the tests were all centralized and "valid" while preventing accidental leakage of the virus from local testing companies. Yet this kind of policy precisely prevented the virus from being quickly identified.
The CDC's focus on the validity of the tests and its refusal to let local hospitals test for the virus mirrors this mistake. Even if the CDC did not actively try to suppress information, it is acting too slow.
[1]https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/how-early-signs-...
Political and censorship considerations aside, one possible reason for doing this could've been to ensure that the tests were all centralized and "valid" while preventing accidental leakage of the virus from local testing companies. Yet this kind of policy precisely prevented the virus from being quickly identified.
The CDC's focus on the validity of the tests and its refusal to let local hospitals test for the virus mirrors this mistake. Even if the CDC did not actively try to suppress information, it is acting too slow.
This is certainly a wakeup call for anyone who thinks that the US federal bureaucracy is immune to dumb authoritarian tactics. Hopefully this will put a damper on all of those armchair dictators who say things like, "the null policy is still a policy and deserves just as much skepticism." If hospitals had not been prevented by the FDA from using their own machines to run tests, the CDC testing shortage would not have mattered.
CDC botched the first test kits. There was no way to test anyway. Fortunately, FDA approved state developed test kits.
It still seems like they're way behind in testing compared to, say, Italy, which for a while at least was testing sick people and everyone they had come into contact with.
No, hospitals had testing machines. They were banned from using them.
Not calling you a liar, but I haven't heard this part - got any citations?
Former FDA director: (would have linked this originally but I wrote the above reply on the go)
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1224042220...
https://mobile.twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1224042220...
Iran, South Korea, Italy didn't manage to stop it at 100 people either, even with advance warning.
>> if the CCP had been better about seeing the truth they could have eliminated the virus when only 100 people had it
Are there any "better" governments that eliminated e.g. cold or flu virus "when only 100 people had it"? I guess not. Cold and flu are common around the world.
Hard to contain, and the containment would cause too much disruption and cost. So we learned to live with cold and flu.
Are there any "better" governments that eliminated e.g. cold or flu virus "when only 100 people had it"? I guess not. Cold and flu are common around the world.
Hard to contain, and the containment would cause too much disruption and cost. So we learned to live with cold and flu.
> they could have eliminated the virus when only 100 people had it
This is simply speculation and not credible.
> while the virus ran around getting the better of them
In 6 months time, most (or all) western countries will look back and wish they had handled the virus as well as China.
This is simply speculation and not credible.
> while the virus ran around getting the better of them
In 6 months time, most (or all) western countries will look back and wish they had handled the virus as well as China.
It just reads like an anti-Chinese propaganda piece.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of Chinese people are very disenfranchised by their government. But a lot of them love it too. But western media always focuses on those that dislike it. Which is not a balanced perspective of their people.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of Chinese people are very disenfranchised by their government. But a lot of them love it too. But western media always focuses on those that dislike it. Which is not a balanced perspective of their people.
Given that putting your name to public criticism is a career-ending move in China, I think it's great that western media gives dissidents a voice.
[deleted]
I don't know that any country's media gives a balanced perspective of another country. They just cover the stories that are interesting enough to repeat in their own country. "most people are doing just fine over here" is generally not such a story.
Also keep in mind that positive views of the CCP are not quite as reliable as the negative ones, given that China is dictatorship actively trying to brainwash people into loving the CCP.
What do you think their views would have been had a free press existed and schools did not engage in indoctrination?
What do you think their views would have been had a free press existed and schools did not engage in indoctrination?
Yeah, what is the point of a quarantine if they give you a warning and allow you to shop and leave the city? By very nature of his description it has worked as hoped.
Problem is you risk killing more people with the quarantine than due to the virus if it is too draconian. You need some flexibility to let people get food.
Grass is greener on the other side when people are disgruntled. These stale China collapse because XYZ recent disaster always gets pushed by western MSM because it's easier to find dissenting voices during times of crisis and hysteria. Then shit hits the fan in comfortable democracies and people wonder why we can't build a triage hospital in 10 days.
>Why were we notified about the city lockdown at 2 a.m. on the second to last morning before the Lunar New Year?
...
>We tried every method to escape from Wuhan, but the cage was already locked.
This is why.
...
>But people are not thinking critically. They do not understand that if we had human rights, democracy and freedom, we would have learned about what happened in Wuhan one month earlier. And the first whistleblower would not have died for nothing.
See Japanese response. CDC just removed testing statistics from their website. Now that initial hysteria has died down and the virus seemingly contained, Chinese social media is noticing the containment failures abroad from countries with ample warning and commenting that CPC central government might not be so incompetent after all. The WHO report from today is going to reinforce those notions.
>Why were we notified about the city lockdown at 2 a.m. on the second to last morning before the Lunar New Year?
...
>We tried every method to escape from Wuhan, but the cage was already locked.
This is why.
...
>But people are not thinking critically. They do not understand that if we had human rights, democracy and freedom, we would have learned about what happened in Wuhan one month earlier. And the first whistleblower would not have died for nothing.
See Japanese response. CDC just removed testing statistics from their website. Now that initial hysteria has died down and the virus seemingly contained, Chinese social media is noticing the containment failures abroad from countries with ample warning and commenting that CPC central government might not be so incompetent after all. The WHO report from today is going to reinforce those notions.
I have a hard time believing China actually has it under control when they've already been caught fiddling with their number of infected / dead constantly. That, and WHO has been spending all of their time trying to avoid offending China.
China is opaque so you have to look at oblique indicators, in this case school has resumed. Kids going back to school indicates the leadership has some confidence that the party thinks the crisis is near the end. Even though kids are at low risk, after SiChuan earthquake school scandal, the political cost of risking children's health for political points is too high even for China.
E: Also Xi visited Wuhan recently, and the annual two sessions meeting is happening in a few days while events are being cancelled around the world. It's the biggest annual political event. Xi is basically over if we get a bunch of infected kids or politicians like in Iran. I guess we'll see if it's confidence or calculus.
E: Also Xi visited Wuhan recently, and the annual two sessions meeting is happening in a few days while events are being cancelled around the world. It's the biggest annual political event. Xi is basically over if we get a bunch of infected kids or politicians like in Iran. I guess we'll see if it's confidence or calculus.
Should probably fact check this before publishing, but the lockdown was rumored ahead of time on wechat. They didn't enforce it for like 8 hours. That's why there were lots of people who managed to flee Wuhan. That's a well-known fact.
Exactly, and I am shocked that today's journalism can publish what they want, regardless of the real truth, and from what I know, no one in wuhan "locked down" by government, they just can't go outside of the province, and this is a must in such an emergency, as for an unknown deadly virus, what can you expect then? We are sane human, first we need to be alive.
This article is obviously biased or lacks understanding of the facts. If it is written by a Chinese, its purpose is only to complain about his own condition, but it does not help the current situation. Chinese people's efforts have earned time for the people of the world. If you want to condemn China, may I ask, which country in the G7 did not rely on colonization and became a developed country?
bdhe(1)
Seattle is on track for its own “potluck. Comic con is in 2 weeks if it doesn’t get cancels it will disastrous for spreading sicknesses
Of course it's hard living in Wuhan during this outbreak/pandemic. There are sacrifices to be made and they are the Wuhan residents. But this doesn't make China an evil authoritarian government mishandling the situation. China is doing the best it can to stop this outbreak where it stands. Yes that means quarantining the hot spot. Yes that means taking over dorms for room to quarantine people. Yes that means medical care at hospitals will be stretched extremely thin.
But what is the alternative? Letting things run rampant because you didn't want to impose upon peoples human rights? The greater good of the whole population means more than the convenience of the Wuhan people. I just hope America falls in line.
And yes, they didn't act immediately when they had patients in December. That could have been handled better. Hindsight is 20/20. But their mindset, about not wanting to start an unwarranted panic, about wanting to investigate things fully, is understandable.
But what is the alternative? Letting things run rampant because you didn't want to impose upon peoples human rights? The greater good of the whole population means more than the convenience of the Wuhan people. I just hope America falls in line.
And yes, they didn't act immediately when they had patients in December. That could have been handled better. Hindsight is 20/20. But their mindset, about not wanting to start an unwarranted panic, about wanting to investigate things fully, is understandable.
> But what is the alternative? Letting things run rampant because you didn't want to impose upon peoples human rights?
Yes this is the alternative. We trade security, another form of it in this case, for freedom. I didn't think the author made a very good case for "living hell", or for that matter have a very good list of egregious things the govt did. But they made a good point at the end with "one day you may be the price that is paid".
Anyway the US won't have to face the issue as China did because it will arrive everywhere if it gets bad, not one starting point that can be contained. And then all the govt here has to do is scare people enough with warnings of danger to lock things down pretty well. Fears of liability will do most of the rest when it comes to schools and other things shutting down.
Yes this is the alternative. We trade security, another form of it in this case, for freedom. I didn't think the author made a very good case for "living hell", or for that matter have a very good list of egregious things the govt did. But they made a good point at the end with "one day you may be the price that is paid".
Anyway the US won't have to face the issue as China did because it will arrive everywhere if it gets bad, not one starting point that can be contained. And then all the govt here has to do is scare people enough with warnings of danger to lock things down pretty well. Fears of liability will do most of the rest when it comes to schools and other things shutting down.
Your alternative sounds an awful lot like what has been done in china by other means.
> Hindsight is 20/20. But their mindset, about not wanting to start an unwarranted panic, about wanting to investigate things fully, is understandable.
When there's clear evidence of the beginnings of an epidemic, a public panic (like we're seeing right now, but on a global scale) is much better than the epidemic spreading.
When there's clear evidence of the beginnings of an epidemic, a public panic (like we're seeing right now, but on a global scale) is much better than the epidemic spreading.
> China is doing the best it can to stop this outbreak where it stands.
Apparently doing the best they can involves discrediting doctors warning about an outbreak.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/03/asia/coronavirus-doctor-whist...
Apparently doing the best they can involves discrediting doctors warning about an outbreak.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/03/asia/coronavirus-doctor-whist...
That was one step (in december). Not the only step, which the WHO mentioned specifically in their latest report. The locking down of Wuhan was instrumental in limiting the outbreak. I am, almost universally, critical of China's government and evolved social systems. This is an exception. They took pragmatic steps that were effective.
I wouldn't characterize this as 'China doing its best'. I think this step, as you put it, is chilling to the Chinese medical community. Why do they have to live under these conditions? Why should folks feel like they can't speak up about their condition in China without having to hide their identity?
This is still a good distance from the best in my view.
This is still a good distance from the best in my view.
[deleted]
A reminder to those who all to easily marvel at the “efficiency” of dictatorships
I already stocked up for and supplies, and was very interested in this article to know what else can lie ahead – but turns out, it's not really about living hell, but just a political piece about Chinese government. Now, I hate Chinese government just as much as any other libertarian whose family has survived a communist regime, but that's some very clickbaity title.
1. The reason they didn't pre-announce the quarantine was that it would defeat the purpose -- people would rush to leave ahead of the deadline.
2. Guy being kicked out of his college dorm: they had so many cases that they needed more space to isolate confirmed cases. They may have built a pre-fab hospital in a week, but that was nowhere near the capacity necessary. A college dorm is one of the better buildings if you need a building to turn into a makeshift hospital immediately. You've got a bunch of small individual rooms, kitchen facilities, and common areas that can be repurposed. The government determined that it was necessary to appropriate the building for the good of the city and did it.
And look at where we are here in the U.S. We had a two month head start, and we still can't do widespread testing, the virus is spreading undetected. China was strongly criticized for providing unreliable numbers, and here we are, now the CDC has simply stopped providing state by state data on testing, and stopped providing a total count of tests done. It's truly shameful, and I pray for the health of people in this country, especially older people.