The Death of Couchsurfing?(medium.com)
medium.com
The Death of Couchsurfing?
https://medium.com/@jameshopest/the-death-of-couchsurfing-a87d9537edf2
311 comments
Every woman I've met on couch surfing has been a victim of some kind of sexual harassment or violence due to someone they meet on couchsurfing. Basically they stay with a guy and he has expectations and is vocal if not forceful about it. Women would be surprised that I had a bed just for them, didn't expect them to sleep with me, didn't ask them for sex, etc. I hosted for two years living in Berlin.
That being said I also had some amazing experiences through couchsurfing.
That being said I also had some amazing experiences through couchsurfing.
I used to be very involved with couchsurfing in the late 2000s and early 2010s I had a high number of women couchsurfers, which came about from having positive feedback from other female couchsurfers, because like you they had their own bed and I wasn't trying to have sex with them.
It started being a concern because I began to think that people looking at my profile would assume that I was just looking to host women which wasn't the case at all. But from speaking to my guests, they said they chose me to host them because of the positive feedback from other female couchsurfers.
I do miss couchsurfing, I met some great and interesting people and have been thinking about getting back into it but have concerns about the direction couchsurfing has gone. I now live on a narrowboat on the canals in the UK and I think it'd make an interesting place for couchsurfers to stay.
It started being a concern because I began to think that people looking at my profile would assume that I was just looking to host women which wasn't the case at all. But from speaking to my guests, they said they chose me to host them because of the positive feedback from other female couchsurfers.
I do miss couchsurfing, I met some great and interesting people and have been thinking about getting back into it but have concerns about the direction couchsurfing has gone. I now live on a narrowboat on the canals in the UK and I think it'd make an interesting place for couchsurfers to stay.
I hosted a lot of people in summer of 2008. All of my housemates were into couchsurfing too (mixed gender house: two guys and three girls, that probably helped), so there was a period where we always hosted at least one person. One weekend, for a couchsurfing event in my city, we hosted 12 people at once! We eventually stopped hosting because people got busy and priorities changed, but our experience as hosts was very positive and I still attended local couchsurfing meetups for the next year or so. I made many friends and contacts through it.
We never received any negative feedback and were in high demand. Aside from that one super busy weekend, where things did get a bit cramped (but people knew in advance that it would be), nobody shared any beds or couches and couchsurfers had rooms separate from the hosts. I wouldn’t have had it any other way. Sharing beds with the host is... creepy (unless the person was given their own bed/couch and they mutually decided they wanted to share a bed, of course).
I miss couchsurfing too. I stopped being part of it around the time it got a sense for being a bit commercial. My circle of couchsurfing friends did it for the cultural exchange and at some point it drifted from that to just free accommodation and drinking parties. At least that’s the sense I got.
We never received any negative feedback and were in high demand. Aside from that one super busy weekend, where things did get a bit cramped (but people knew in advance that it would be), nobody shared any beds or couches and couchsurfers had rooms separate from the hosts. I wouldn’t have had it any other way. Sharing beds with the host is... creepy (unless the person was given their own bed/couch and they mutually decided they wanted to share a bed, of course).
I miss couchsurfing too. I stopped being part of it around the time it got a sense for being a bit commercial. My circle of couchsurfing friends did it for the cultural exchange and at some point it drifted from that to just free accommodation and drinking parties. At least that’s the sense I got.
You certainly do hear creepy stories about hosts surprising guests by only having one bed. And more than that. Of course, if everything is mutually agreed then that's fine.
I was actually pretty surprised when I was speaking to another couchsurfing host how many women he'd hosted that he'd slept with. Perhaps I'm (or was) naive but it never occurred to me that people would use it for hooking up.
I was actually pretty surprised when I was speaking to another couchsurfing host how many women he'd hosted that he'd slept with. Perhaps I'm (or was) naive but it never occurred to me that people would use it for hooking up.
Yeah. It’s sad really.
I also know someone, a very handsome dude in his mid 20s who had a bit of a wanderlust for a year after a brief stint in the military, who also got plenty of harassment from dudes he was staying with. As in, two of his hosts in Italy cooked and ate naked with him ("no strings attached"), and one really creepy dude tried to touch him while he was sleeping (in a separate location)... which obviously didn't end well for the host as this dude was fresh out of the military.
Why would they keep signing up to stay with a guy if not being harassed was out of the norm?
I know women who get harassed pretty frequently walking down the street, there would be very few things they could do if they avoided all places they have been harassed more than twice.
Wow! I've hosted a good bit and that's completely different from my experience.
> Women would be surprised that I had a bed just for them
It sounds like you were taking a lot of the desperate people on the site that aren't mostly in it for the cultural exchange but to save $5. Because here's the thing - everyone's profile has a section detailing what kind of room/bed the Couchsurfer will get. A "shared bed" is a red flag the size of Russia.
That's the other thing: I like to read the CS profiles of the guys accused of being creepy. 95% of the time, it's VERY obvious who they are. Guys will have "sex" in their interests, only have a shared tiny bed, or pictures of them shirtless, or 100% references from young women, etc., etc. That's the beauty of Couchsurfing - if you see a profile that you're not 100% confident in, then just move on; there are fifteen million people.
The real problem on Couchsurfing stems from people not reading each others' profiles. People get greedy, see a way to save on hotels, then send out copy-paste message spam that's not unique to your profile. I only host people who send me a message personalized to my profile, and even then that's after a lot of reading their profile, references, etc. I simply ignore the copy-pasted messages - if you don't care who you end up with, then you're not Couchsurfing for the interesting experience, you're doing it to save a few bucks.
If you don't read profiles and carefully select, then you're basically rolling the dice. This is the #1 cause of bad Couchsurfing experiences.
TL;DR: if you choose a host without reading, Couchsurfing just becomes Omegle IRL.
(If you're a woman reading this and want to Couchsurf 100% safely, you can do things like only surf families, other women, places where you'll get your own room, etc etc.)
> Women would be surprised that I had a bed just for them
It sounds like you were taking a lot of the desperate people on the site that aren't mostly in it for the cultural exchange but to save $5. Because here's the thing - everyone's profile has a section detailing what kind of room/bed the Couchsurfer will get. A "shared bed" is a red flag the size of Russia.
That's the other thing: I like to read the CS profiles of the guys accused of being creepy. 95% of the time, it's VERY obvious who they are. Guys will have "sex" in their interests, only have a shared tiny bed, or pictures of them shirtless, or 100% references from young women, etc., etc. That's the beauty of Couchsurfing - if you see a profile that you're not 100% confident in, then just move on; there are fifteen million people.
The real problem on Couchsurfing stems from people not reading each others' profiles. People get greedy, see a way to save on hotels, then send out copy-paste message spam that's not unique to your profile. I only host people who send me a message personalized to my profile, and even then that's after a lot of reading their profile, references, etc. I simply ignore the copy-pasted messages - if you don't care who you end up with, then you're not Couchsurfing for the interesting experience, you're doing it to save a few bucks.
If you don't read profiles and carefully select, then you're basically rolling the dice. This is the #1 cause of bad Couchsurfing experiences.
TL;DR: if you choose a host without reading, Couchsurfing just becomes Omegle IRL.
(If you're a woman reading this and want to Couchsurf 100% safely, you can do things like only surf families, other women, places where you'll get your own room, etc etc.)
Couchsurfing was founded after Casey Fenton had a plane ticket to Iceland but no money for a hotel. So, he spammed the University of Reykjavik's e-mail directory asking to stay on someone's couch. Aiming to save money on accommodation has ALWAYS been a thing on CS. Yes, it is great when cultural exchange and friendship arise on top of the exchange of free accommodation, but it doesn't happen with every guest or with every host.
Also, as a 2005 signup, I can attest that copy/paste requests have always been a thing. In fact, initially they were the norm. Back when travelers used internet cafes and were paying for every minute, it was understandable that they needed to send out a wave of requests quickly without being able to personalize them. Even now, I prefer copy/paste as a host because I can sympathize with travelers and don’t want them to jump through silly hoops.
Also, as a 2005 signup, I can attest that copy/paste requests have always been a thing. In fact, initially they were the norm. Back when travelers used internet cafes and were paying for every minute, it was understandable that they needed to send out a wave of requests quickly without being able to personalize them. Even now, I prefer copy/paste as a host because I can sympathize with travelers and don’t want them to jump through silly hoops.
Yeah, I know how the site started :) But Couchsurfing is a lot different from the CS of nearly two decades ago. It's several orders of magnitude bigger, and it's got many, many travelers who never host, only surf, with an ungrateful attitude who see you as a free hotel. I saw downthread you said you switched to other platforms (which is great, they need to grow!) but they are a lot different from 2020 Couchsurfing, where I get a constant flood of messages and regularly get messages from people essentially demanding a free hotel and food, occasionally for the most ridiculous of reasons (like that they're here for a conference and want to pocket the reimbursement.)
And I have no problem with people that want to save money, but if that's the - only - thing they're using CS for, with no interest in ever talking to me, then I'm just not going to host them.
It's admirable to take in anyone, but it's pretty rare. The vast majority of hosts I know (and have surfed) will only take people in who have read their profiles.
Like I mentioned, there's a safety component to this (for men as well!) but also a practical side - many people live a good bit outside the city they're listed in, some people go to bed early or late, some people play music all night, some people are nudists, some people have a shorter sleeping spot (couch/bed/etc)... If you don't read profiles you're just rolling the dice - even if you just want a free bed!
By the way, I think I'll try to be more active on BW/Trustroots (hosting mostly.) Any advice for how to get my profile seen? On CS I get absolutely flooded with messages (and often get great, well written messages) - on BW and Trustroots I've gotten nothing.
And I have no problem with people that want to save money, but if that's the - only - thing they're using CS for, with no interest in ever talking to me, then I'm just not going to host them.
It's admirable to take in anyone, but it's pretty rare. The vast majority of hosts I know (and have surfed) will only take people in who have read their profiles.
Like I mentioned, there's a safety component to this (for men as well!) but also a practical side - many people live a good bit outside the city they're listed in, some people go to bed early or late, some people play music all night, some people are nudists, some people have a shorter sleeping spot (couch/bed/etc)... If you don't read profiles you're just rolling the dice - even if you just want a free bed!
By the way, I think I'll try to be more active on BW/Trustroots (hosting mostly.) Any advice for how to get my profile seen? On CS I get absolutely flooded with messages (and often get great, well written messages) - on BW and Trustroots I've gotten nothing.
Again, as a member for many years, I constantly heard year after year "CS is different than it used to be. There are so many freeloaders now!" But when I signed up in 2005, two of the demographics sending me requests were academics coming to town for a conference, or e.g. guys whose girlfriend kicked them out and they needed a place to crash. I didn't see this change significantly in the years before I bailed in 2016, and I always found it easy to ignore them and host backpackers.
Really, for me the negative change in CS over the years was the explosion in hosts who were sedentary. If you don't do shoestring travel as a lifestyle yourself, you won't be able to sympathize with your potential guest's needs. For a site that, in Europe, spread initially through the hitchhiking community, I was appalled to see so many CS hosts by 2008 who looked down on free travel, and threw around words like "freeloader".
I also can't agree with people complaining about guests who need their hosts to feed them. If they are ordinary backpackers who just budgeted poorly, that is one thing, but if they are intentionally trying to live on no money, that is another thing entirely. Among the freespirited alternative traveler community who founded CS, there have always been people traveling by providence, and they have been among my best and most memorable guests. Their stories and positive attitudes far outpaid the pasta and salad I made for them.
Finally, you can't assume that guests who write a non-copy/paste request actually read your profile. Sure, they may have quickly scanned your profile for things they can mention in a request, but that doesn't mean they care about the details. For years I could only offer a mattress on the floor and clearly said so in my profile, and yet so many of the guests who wrote ostensibly personalized requests either didn't catch that, or when they accepted my invitation and arrived at my home they complained about it. Again, writers of copy/paste are just as likely to be appreciative or not.
As for getting requests on BW or Trustroots, either live in a place where many travelers want to go to, or become a superhost whose house is open to all travelers and word of the good vibe there attracts people to your region even if initially they don't know what to do there. Those are your only options, really. However, this looks to be the biggest wave of CS refugees ever, so you may start getting more requests regardless.
Really, for me the negative change in CS over the years was the explosion in hosts who were sedentary. If you don't do shoestring travel as a lifestyle yourself, you won't be able to sympathize with your potential guest's needs. For a site that, in Europe, spread initially through the hitchhiking community, I was appalled to see so many CS hosts by 2008 who looked down on free travel, and threw around words like "freeloader".
I also can't agree with people complaining about guests who need their hosts to feed them. If they are ordinary backpackers who just budgeted poorly, that is one thing, but if they are intentionally trying to live on no money, that is another thing entirely. Among the freespirited alternative traveler community who founded CS, there have always been people traveling by providence, and they have been among my best and most memorable guests. Their stories and positive attitudes far outpaid the pasta and salad I made for them.
Finally, you can't assume that guests who write a non-copy/paste request actually read your profile. Sure, they may have quickly scanned your profile for things they can mention in a request, but that doesn't mean they care about the details. For years I could only offer a mattress on the floor and clearly said so in my profile, and yet so many of the guests who wrote ostensibly personalized requests either didn't catch that, or when they accepted my invitation and arrived at my home they complained about it. Again, writers of copy/paste are just as likely to be appreciative or not.
As for getting requests on BW or Trustroots, either live in a place where many travelers want to go to, or become a superhost whose house is open to all travelers and word of the good vibe there attracts people to your region even if initially they don't know what to do there. Those are your only options, really. However, this looks to be the biggest wave of CS refugees ever, so you may start getting more requests regardless.
This isn't even the case though. I heard from many people and stayed with some people where you would get there and they would be like "yeah i dont have that anymore". couch surfing also became super obnoxious in some places. Like in Berlin I would host anybody, but in Tokyo basically nobody would host you unless you could demonstrate your awesomeness some how either by cooking a 10 course meal, being super model hot, etc.
I don't think you are wrong, sometimes it is obvious you are walking into a bad situation, but wtf is the point of couchsurfing if its not to save money? lol.
TBH I think the real problem with couchsurfing is that it was more of a passing fad, cultural phenomenon rather than something that will stay forever. My guess is someone will come up with a more clever solution and the generation that used couchsurfing will keep using it and a new generation of travelers will use the new thing.
I don't think you are wrong, sometimes it is obvious you are walking into a bad situation, but wtf is the point of couchsurfing if its not to save money? lol.
TBH I think the real problem with couchsurfing is that it was more of a passing fad, cultural phenomenon rather than something that will stay forever. My guess is someone will come up with a more clever solution and the generation that used couchsurfing will keep using it and a new generation of travelers will use the new thing.
This comes across as victim-blaming. I'm glad it wasn't your experience, but that doesn't mean that other people weren't doing their homework.
It's very frustrating to spend a lot of actual energy and time on trying to reduce sexual assault on platforms like this - only to get sniped for supposed "victim blaming" by an anonymous person on the internet because I didn't virtue signal hard enough.
You want a virtue signal? Here you go: sexual assault is the fault of the assaulter, not the assaulted.
Unlike most people passing by this thread, I have actual experience with this topic. I'm close to several women who have Couchsurfed solo, and I have hosted countless young women (men as well, of course.)
If a discussion about American gun deaths came up, it would not be victim blaming to explain the context and the source of most of these deaths.
My comment had several purposes. One was to explain the most common reason for sexual assault on the platform. Another was to help people getting into Couchsurfing. There will undoubtedly be a number of HN users joining Couchsurfing as part of this thread, and I wanted to pass along valuable safety information to any women among them.
You want a virtue signal? Here you go: sexual assault is the fault of the assaulter, not the assaulted.
Unlike most people passing by this thread, I have actual experience with this topic. I'm close to several women who have Couchsurfed solo, and I have hosted countless young women (men as well, of course.)
If a discussion about American gun deaths came up, it would not be victim blaming to explain the context and the source of most of these deaths.
My comment had several purposes. One was to explain the most common reason for sexual assault on the platform. Another was to help people getting into Couchsurfing. There will undoubtedly be a number of HN users joining Couchsurfing as part of this thread, and I wanted to pass along valuable safety information to any women among them.
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Couchsurfing has had an incredibly positive impact on my life as well. I've made a lot of lifelong friends and learned a lot about the world and different cultures through the people I've met. The app is atrocious and barely usable, but the community is terrific.
More than anything, Couchsurfing taught me wonderful things can happen when you embrace serendipity. Couchsurfing is an important antidote to a world that seems increasingly fearful of strangers.
I hope they manage to survive.
More than anything, Couchsurfing taught me wonderful things can happen when you embrace serendipity. Couchsurfing is an important antidote to a world that seems increasingly fearful of strangers.
I hope they manage to survive.
Yeah, that's the really wonderful thing about Couchsurfing. It's a whole web of beautiful trust. People in the first world are scared of strangers by default: Couchsurfing flips that on its head. Although I still try to stay safe, I now generally trust strangers and it's made my life so much richer.
Paradoxically, trusting strangers has also made my life safer.
In Armenia, I met an old woman who then helped me get through a dangerous area and told me not to worry - she'd protect me like her own grandson :) In another country, I made friends with an army officer who watched over me, and somewhere else a truck driver helped me through a tough border crossing.
People also seem to be scared of that one crazy person who'll stab or rob them. Here's one thing I realized: even the "bad" members of society are not bad to everyone. A mugger doesn't mug his friends and many murderers have been loving parents. Getting to know someone - aside from being interesting - means they'll see you as another human being, not some target. (Most of the time. Of course, always use your judgment, and if something feels off, just leave.)
I hope CS gets reborn. Who knows, it might happen - maybe they'll run out of cash, put the site up for sale, and someone will rebuild it as it should be. Or maybe the current leadership will do a 180 (unlikely, but who knows!)
Paradoxically, trusting strangers has also made my life safer.
In Armenia, I met an old woman who then helped me get through a dangerous area and told me not to worry - she'd protect me like her own grandson :) In another country, I made friends with an army officer who watched over me, and somewhere else a truck driver helped me through a tough border crossing.
People also seem to be scared of that one crazy person who'll stab or rob them. Here's one thing I realized: even the "bad" members of society are not bad to everyone. A mugger doesn't mug his friends and many murderers have been loving parents. Getting to know someone - aside from being interesting - means they'll see you as another human being, not some target. (Most of the time. Of course, always use your judgment, and if something feels off, just leave.)
I hope CS gets reborn. Who knows, it might happen - maybe they'll run out of cash, put the site up for sale, and someone will rebuild it as it should be. Or maybe the current leadership will do a 180 (unlikely, but who knows!)
The community is already coming together to rebuild. The CS meetup in Auckland is rebranding as BeWelcome. Kaohsiung is discussing it.
I'm sad that all those good memories will be tinged with pain by this betrayal, but it's given me a good reason to get back in touch with old friends, and invite them to BW. I wholeheartedly agree with your descriptions of CS and trusting strangers; you've had some great stories!
I'm sad that all those good memories will be tinged with pain by this betrayal, but it's given me a good reason to get back in touch with old friends, and invite them to BW. I wholeheartedly agree with your descriptions of CS and trusting strangers; you've had some great stories!
Oddly enough, your experience with CouchSurfing very much matches my initial experience with AirBnb, back in the days when they were still small.
My experience with CouchSurfing, on the other hand, was weird. When me and my roommates (3 guys, 2 girls) signed up our shared house (in waking distance of a touristic city center), we were expecting to see lots of backpackers and tourists our age. Instead, most of our guest requests were middle-aged women with a strong urge to point out how adventurous they were feeling. I believe we not once had a guest request from a guy.
My experience with CouchSurfing, on the other hand, was weird. When me and my roommates (3 guys, 2 girls) signed up our shared house (in waking distance of a touristic city center), we were expecting to see lots of backpackers and tourists our age. Instead, most of our guest requests were middle-aged women with a strong urge to point out how adventurous they were feeling. I believe we not once had a guest request from a guy.
That is indeed very unusual, I've never heard of an experience like that! I wonder what happened, maybe they were all part of a group or something?
Middle aged women make up a very small percentage of Couchsurfing, and when I see them they're usually hosts only. I get a ton of requests, and I think it'd be more likely for me to get a message from an astronaut than two middle aged women.
I just checked my references and my friends' references and didn't find one woman over 40. I really wonder what happened in your case!
Middle aged women make up a very small percentage of Couchsurfing, and when I see them they're usually hosts only. I get a ton of requests, and I think it'd be more likely for me to get a message from an astronaut than two middle aged women.
I just checked my references and my friends' references and didn't find one woman over 40. I really wonder what happened in your case!
Did you ever actually meet an astronaut through couchsurfing?
The weirdest stay-over that I ever had was a Korean religious pilgrimage who mistook me for a monk because apparently one had lived in my apartment before I moved in.
The weirdest stay-over that I ever had was a Korean religious pilgrimage who mistook me for a monk because apparently one had lived in my apartment before I moved in.
Not an astronaut but a couple who had been working on the Antarctic (he was a driver, she was working in the kitchens/cafe/bar) during the summer season.
They had loads of really interesting stories and it sounded fascinating. They'd talked about how those who had done the winter season (24 hours of pitch blackness for 4 months) were all a little bit on edge and twitchy.
They had loads of really interesting stories and it sounded fascinating. They'd talked about how those who had done the winter season (24 hours of pitch blackness for 4 months) were all a little bit on edge and twitchy.
Wasn't the initial Airbnb pitch "like couchsurfing, but with money"?
I'm so glad this comment is getting so much attention because Couchsurfing really is one of the best things to ever happen to me - not only with all the incredible experiences but also because it made me a kinder, more trusting and better person.
Really, Couchsurfing changed my life. Ignore the fact that the app is a dumpster fire and just give it a shot - or better, try BeWelcome or Trustroots.
And again, if anyone has any questions about Couchsurfing or wants to start but is confused (or wants to couchsurf my boat!) please send me an email (it's in my profile.)
Really, Couchsurfing changed my life. Ignore the fact that the app is a dumpster fire and just give it a shot - or better, try BeWelcome or Trustroots.
And again, if anyone has any questions about Couchsurfing or wants to start but is confused (or wants to couchsurf my boat!) please send me an email (it's in my profile.)
+1 for providing other options. Never heard of BeWelcome or Trustroots.
I had some really good experiences on couchsurfing (hosting and surfing) about 10 years ago, then I moved to a very touristic part of the world, and started getting 90% of requests from couples who were basically looking to get free accommodation for their holidays. I accepted the first 3 times, and each time they would arrive in the evening, unpack, drive to a restaurant they had already booked, come back to sleep and then leave first thing in the morning.
A key technique to avoid those situations was the "poisoned pill": buried in your profile there is some keyword they must include in their request.
With that (which I copied once I was reading a full descriptive profile) you get a great filter. I have done a good share of CS, both as host and guest, over the last ~10 years, having either good or amazing experiences.
With that (which I copied once I was reading a full descriptive profile) you get a great filter. I have done a good share of CS, both as host and guest, over the last ~10 years, having either good or amazing experiences.
That’s a “brown M&M”, not a “poison pill”.
Yeah phrasing it that way -- poison pill -- is a good way to make people feel uneasy when you're staying with them.
It would explain why they kept going out to restaurants instead of eating anything at the house...
> ading a full descriptive profile) you get a great filter. I have done a good
can you explain? what keywords do you have to put to avoid this?
can you explain? what keywords do you have to put to avoid this?
It's a way to check if someone read your entire profile, so you can filter out people who are just looking for a free place to stay. For example, you could hide the word "pineapple" two paragraphs in and ask that people mention it in their first message to you.
Ah very clever!
All my experiences with couchsurfing were on the weird side, as a friend, friendly but serious kind of guy who is a weirdo magnet published the home we were renting together.
We had an artist which might had a mental issue or maybe just acting as he constantly confused who we were and told the same histories again and again. Some guy who in his own words, was trying to start his own religious cult. And some guy who brought a lot of peyote and blow the kitchen trying to destilate the mescaline.
Those were pretty interesting times, I definitely appreciate the experiences I had, but I also don't think I host anybody now (or at least not until my son is older).
We had an artist which might had a mental issue or maybe just acting as he constantly confused who we were and told the same histories again and again. Some guy who in his own words, was trying to start his own religious cult. And some guy who brought a lot of peyote and blow the kitchen trying to destilate the mescaline.
Those were pretty interesting times, I definitely appreciate the experiences I had, but I also don't think I host anybody now (or at least not until my son is older).
Couchsurfing was such a magical experience for me. I was a bit lonely in a new city and went along to a party hosted by another CouchSurfing host. I made two lifelong friends and got to know another wonderful group of creative & kind people.
I probably hosted 10 times and stayed with people about the same. Each time it was such a wonderful experience - by far the best way of traveling when I was in my 20s. Truly an amazing exercise in trust, as well as building experience of the kindness of strangers (with memorable adventures).
I probably hosted 10 times and stayed with people about the same. Each time it was such a wonderful experience - by far the best way of traveling when I was in my 20s. Truly an amazing exercise in trust, as well as building experience of the kindness of strangers (with memorable adventures).
Aw, that's so great! It really warms my heart to hear about all the magical Couchsurfing experiences everyone's had. The kindness of strangers is such an amazing thing, isn't it?
Thanks for sharing.
Couchsurfing is so interesting. Its success relies on it never becoming mainstream.
It's like those word-of-mouth-only parties that are so great but if enough people hear about them, they are no longer any good.
I had a similar experience with drum circles in Toronto, Canada. They were this hippie heaven of people coming together in a park and playing drums once a week in the summertime. Other people would come by and picnic, sit around, dance, hula hoop, whatever.
Once it got popular enough, the park would be littered by the end of the day, so local residents complained and got drum circles banned, so we don't have drum circles anymore, because they were too good and a complete non-profit :)
Couchsurfing is so interesting. Its success relies on it never becoming mainstream.
It's like those word-of-mouth-only parties that are so great but if enough people hear about them, they are no longer any good.
I had a similar experience with drum circles in Toronto, Canada. They were this hippie heaven of people coming together in a park and playing drums once a week in the summertime. Other people would come by and picnic, sit around, dance, hula hoop, whatever.
Once it got popular enough, the park would be littered by the end of the day, so local residents complained and got drum circles banned, so we don't have drum circles anymore, because they were too good and a complete non-profit :)
Is that really the case? I couch surfed years ago. From memory I think couchsurfing.com has a reputation system where if people stay at your house, you gain points that give you priority when staying with someone else. so it's kinda like a system for bypassing money in exchanging accommodation. Ideally, if many people start swarming the system looking for free places to stay, it will just mean they won't get chosen, and things keep operating as normal.
I hear you. Maybe I'm just weary of people, having lived in a city my entire adult life and yet forming few lasting bonds, that I have to wonder about the reward/cost ratio of couch surfing.
What are the chances of hosting somebody you don't like? What are the chances of showing up to someone's couch and feeling yikes?
I imagine the odds are reduced if the people using the service are largely of a similar ilk. Similar ilk works well if the service is carefully grown over time via careful word of mouth. People tend to behave much better if you know each other through a mutual friend or acquaintance. If the service grows big enough, that invisible bond of a small community will be gone and I imagine that invisible bond is what the original poster was so fond of.
It's like that house party example - if enough people show up, that delicate balance of meeting new people by being introduced through a mutual friend and having the time to make a connection with a stranger is broken and you end up 'networking' instead of connecting, as is the case with most tech meet-ups I've attended :)
What are the chances of hosting somebody you don't like? What are the chances of showing up to someone's couch and feeling yikes?
I imagine the odds are reduced if the people using the service are largely of a similar ilk. Similar ilk works well if the service is carefully grown over time via careful word of mouth. People tend to behave much better if you know each other through a mutual friend or acquaintance. If the service grows big enough, that invisible bond of a small community will be gone and I imagine that invisible bond is what the original poster was so fond of.
It's like that house party example - if enough people show up, that delicate balance of meeting new people by being introduced through a mutual friend and having the time to make a connection with a stranger is broken and you end up 'networking' instead of connecting, as is the case with most tech meet-ups I've attended :)
From what I understand, couchsurfing in the beginning was mostly western college students trying to travel. As such, the chance of meeting someone similar to yourself was very high. By now, not so much.
relying on the reputation system to filter out bad guests means that new members have no chance to join.
hosts will be overwhelmed with requests. many guests will be freeloaders who would be better served with airbnb.
for the site to work, the influx of new members needd to be small enough so that the community csn handle it.
word of mouth is the only way to make sure that new members can get a reference before their first trip.
hosts will be overwhelmed with requests. many guests will be freeloaders who would be better served with airbnb.
for the site to work, the influx of new members needd to be small enough so that the community csn handle it.
word of mouth is the only way to make sure that new members can get a reference before their first trip.
Like the poster you're responding to, I haven't used couchsurfing in a few years - left due to life changes, and being annoyed by earlier stages of the commercialization that the article talks about. But, prior to that I semi-regularly hosted and used it in my own travels a couple times, over maybe 8 or 9 years and a few countries.
It worked very much as described in that post, and didn't seem to have the problems listed in yours. The biggest problem I remember with CS, was people trying to inappropriately use it to get laid.
It worked very much as described in that post, and didn't seem to have the problems listed in yours. The biggest problem I remember with CS, was people trying to inappropriately use it to get laid.
I want to add my own anecdotal experience to confirm yours - it worked out well, even when I was a novice (& when hosting novices). It was also easy to not be a novice anymore - just host! There was always demand for hosts.
The real problem is the same that has been plaguing the web in general - there seems to be no more room for just doing good stuff while trying to break-even or even making a modest profit. Everything has to be a "startup" with the possibility of making its founders millionaires (or more).
I got on the internet in the early/mid 90s when the web was new & for a few years it was mostly non-commercial and ran by enthusiasts and hobbyists acting according to the hacker ethos of sharing, openness, decentralization & world improvement. You could see these principles for years even behind decidedly commercial sites such as craigslist.
It didn't last for long but that's the kind of ideology couch surfing originally started in & it's sad but unsurprising to see where it ended up in.
The real problem is the same that has been plaguing the web in general - there seems to be no more room for just doing good stuff while trying to break-even or even making a modest profit. Everything has to be a "startup" with the possibility of making its founders millionaires (or more).
I got on the internet in the early/mid 90s when the web was new & for a few years it was mostly non-commercial and ran by enthusiasts and hobbyists acting according to the hacker ethos of sharing, openness, decentralization & world improvement. You could see these principles for years even behind decidedly commercial sites such as craigslist.
It didn't last for long but that's the kind of ideology couch surfing originally started in & it's sad but unsurprising to see where it ended up in.
you are right, i am describing a hypothetical situation where couchsurfing becomes mainstream. it works now, but will it still work when there are 10 or 100 times as many couchsurfers?
i should have pointed out that i am speculating.
i should have pointed out that i am speculating.
> new members have no chance to join.
Maybe they should host first?
Maybe they should host first?
not everyone has the ability to host. especially young people who live in student housing, or in a shared apartment, or even still with their parents, may not be able to host, but those are the ones most likely to travel and look for a couch.
> I had a similar experience with drum circles in Toronto, Canada. They were this hippie heaven of people coming together in a park and playing drums once a week in the summertime. Other people would come by and picnic, sit around, dance, hula hoop, whatever.
My brother lived near a big ole drum circle in Santa Cruz, CA and had the same experience. Originally it was a small crew and they weren't a problem. They hung out, didn't get too loud, and were respectful of the properties nearby. Definitely some LSD and other substances floating around, but nothing out of control.
Couple years later it's essentially a quasi-homeless community and lots of problems with litter, noise, and, eventually, overdoses.
See also: Mop Theory & Subcultures -- https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
My brother lived near a big ole drum circle in Santa Cruz, CA and had the same experience. Originally it was a small crew and they weren't a problem. They hung out, didn't get too loud, and were respectful of the properties nearby. Definitely some LSD and other substances floating around, but nothing out of control.
Couple years later it's essentially a quasi-homeless community and lots of problems with litter, noise, and, eventually, overdoses.
See also: Mop Theory & Subcultures -- https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
I used Couch Surfing thought-out the world.
In China and Vietnam, I found that the locals use the site only to meet foreigners. For example an teacher in Vietnam asked me to be a guest during an English class.
I traveled by bicycle. This meant I could use also the Warm Showers website. This worked extremely well in Europe and the US. I had wonderful hosts in New York City, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Bavaria, Zurich, Washington DC, Berlin, Czech Republic, Dallas, Houston, Baton Rouge.
And in the Netherlands I used Vrienden Op De Fiets, which is more expensive, but also very nice.
In China and Vietnam, I found that the locals use the site only to meet foreigners. For example an teacher in Vietnam asked me to be a guest during an English class.
I traveled by bicycle. This meant I could use also the Warm Showers website. This worked extremely well in Europe and the US. I had wonderful hosts in New York City, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Bavaria, Zurich, Washington DC, Berlin, Czech Republic, Dallas, Houston, Baton Rouge.
And in the Netherlands I used Vrienden Op De Fiets, which is more expensive, but also very nice.
Hah! I had the same experience in Vietnam. It was in Hanoi and I had such a blast. The students of the class took me around and showed me places for the rest of the week.
[deleted]
I knew about Couchsurfing because my previous startup was in the rental marketplace.
Although, I never tried it..I heard many good things about it.
I also noticed Travis Kalanick used it as a title “couchsurfing” in one of his blogs before he launched Uber.
https://swooshing.wordpress.com/?s=Jam+pad+&submit=Search
Although, I never tried it..I heard many good things about it.
I also noticed Travis Kalanick used it as a title “couchsurfing” in one of his blogs before he launched Uber.
https://swooshing.wordpress.com/?s=Jam+pad+&submit=Search
I had a similar experience with the couchsurfing community 6 or 7 years ago. Beyond the basic hosting concept, there was also a large group of people who would meet up regularly in my city, which made it really easy to find activities for the guests you had in town. I really hope they find a way to keep going.
Have there been any cases where something bad has happened to either a host or a guest? (Such are the thoughts that consume my middle aged mind, I think I was more trusting when younger but never to the extent that you are). BTW, I think your attitude is great.
Yes, of course - Couchsurfing has fifteen million members and has been around nearly two decades IIRC.
Nothing has happened to me or anyone I know (or anyone I know knows.) And I don't think anyone should be afraid of things like murder, kidnapping, etc. While pretty much every high profile app/website these days has a big tragedy happen, Couchsurfing only had one - I actually think that's very low for the number of times people have Couchsurfed. (If you're thinking of Airbnb as the safe alternative, it's had far more gruesome and tragic events.)
But the thing to be careful with using Couchsurfing isn't a microscopic chance of murder, it's creepy hosts. There are always hosts that are clearly using Couchsurfing as a dating site. The way around this is just to read profiles and references.
Of course, everyone sets their own comfort level. Maybe a woman would only want to stay with other women; or maybe only with families, or with gay men. Maybe you'll only want to stay with someone if you'll get your own private room (you can filter for only those if you want.) Or only by verified profiles with 20+ references. Then there are red flags - Does a man have only references from women? That's a red flag.
That's the beauty of it: it's a completely choose-your-own-adventure kinda thing. If you want to stay with a family with kids in the mountains you can do that; if you want to join a clearly wild local on their quest to do illegal activities that will leave you with a hell of a story to tell, then that's also possible.
I would encourage anyone to still think about it no matter how old they may be - some of my best hosts got into CS late in life. It's possible to Couchsurf in a "paranoid" manner (for example only staying with families) it just takes a bit more effort and planning :)
Nothing has happened to me or anyone I know (or anyone I know knows.) And I don't think anyone should be afraid of things like murder, kidnapping, etc. While pretty much every high profile app/website these days has a big tragedy happen, Couchsurfing only had one - I actually think that's very low for the number of times people have Couchsurfed. (If you're thinking of Airbnb as the safe alternative, it's had far more gruesome and tragic events.)
But the thing to be careful with using Couchsurfing isn't a microscopic chance of murder, it's creepy hosts. There are always hosts that are clearly using Couchsurfing as a dating site. The way around this is just to read profiles and references.
Of course, everyone sets their own comfort level. Maybe a woman would only want to stay with other women; or maybe only with families, or with gay men. Maybe you'll only want to stay with someone if you'll get your own private room (you can filter for only those if you want.) Or only by verified profiles with 20+ references. Then there are red flags - Does a man have only references from women? That's a red flag.
That's the beauty of it: it's a completely choose-your-own-adventure kinda thing. If you want to stay with a family with kids in the mountains you can do that; if you want to join a clearly wild local on their quest to do illegal activities that will leave you with a hell of a story to tell, then that's also possible.
I would encourage anyone to still think about it no matter how old they may be - some of my best hosts got into CS late in life. It's possible to Couchsurf in a "paranoid" manner (for example only staying with families) it just takes a bit more effort and planning :)
Sure, this does happen, but it's very rare. Anecdotally the most common issue is non-violent sexual assault - e.g. guys hitting on girls. That's largely a risk for solo female travelers unfortunately. If you travel as a couple, for example, the risk is far less. On the other hand the vast majority of solo travelers, male and female, don't have any issues.
There are some safety nets in place, like you can get verified by couchsurfing for a small fee. It's a trust system, people are encouraged to vouch for each other. If you're worried, then only visit/host people who have a lot of good reviews, or who can be vouched for by someone else in the community. If you were asking from the perspective of a prospective traveler I would suggest going to local couchsurfing meetups rather than randomly finding people to stay with. Often you can get recommendations directly and gut feel is very valuable.
There are some safety nets in place, like you can get verified by couchsurfing for a small fee. It's a trust system, people are encouraged to vouch for each other. If you're worried, then only visit/host people who have a lot of good reviews, or who can be vouched for by someone else in the community. If you were asking from the perspective of a prospective traveler I would suggest going to local couchsurfing meetups rather than randomly finding people to stay with. Often you can get recommendations directly and gut feel is very valuable.
Guys hitting on girls is sexual assault now?
It's about the power dynamic. You're talking about someone who isn't from the area, who doesn't know anyone nearby, and who is supposed to sleep at your place. If you are aggressively flirting with them, they may be forced into the impression that either they sleep with you or they sleep on the street. And that would definitely be assault
I could give you some tips if you think "hitting on women" means strong-arming them into an implicit deal that they have to fuck you or else.
Hence the term "aggressively flirting"
They are women who have chosen to stay at a male stranger's house. Do you think women are completely naïve about how the world works? I've known two women who couch surf and it was de rigueur to have sex with their hosts.
> They are women who have chosen to stay at a male stranger's house
They are people who have chosen to stay at a stranger's house
> Do you think women are completely naïve about how the world works
No, but I don't think they want to have to take every decision based on probability of getting raped
> I've known two women who couch surf and it was de rigueur to have sex with their hosts
And I know male hosts who had sex with their male visitors. Does that mean that if I couchsurf at a man's flat I should be expecting intercourse for my bed?
They are people who have chosen to stay at a stranger's house
> Do you think women are completely naïve about how the world works
No, but I don't think they want to have to take every decision based on probability of getting raped
> I've known two women who couch surf and it was de rigueur to have sex with their hosts
And I know male hosts who had sex with their male visitors. Does that mean that if I couchsurf at a man's flat I should be expecting intercourse for my bed?
You seem to be confused between what you think should be true versus what actually is true.
If you think women can afford to take the same risks as men when travelling then I just really don't know what to say to you. That's just hopelessly naïve. Attractive girls learn very early on that every man wants to have sex with them. It's just part of life for them.
> Does that mean that if I couchsurf at a man's flat I should be expecting intercourse for my bed?
No, but if I were you I would at least consider that there might be a "misunderstanding" leading to you having to find alternative accommodation.
If you think women can afford to take the same risks as men when travelling then I just really don't know what to say to you. That's just hopelessly naïve. Attractive girls learn very early on that every man wants to have sex with them. It's just part of life for them.
> Does that mean that if I couchsurf at a man's flat I should be expecting intercourse for my bed?
No, but if I were you I would at least consider that there might be a "misunderstanding" leading to you having to find alternative accommodation.
> No, but if I were you I would at least consider that there might be a "misunderstanding" leading to you having to find alternative accommodation.
Why, on a site like couchsurfing, would there be any implied sex, or opportunity for misunderstanding around 'sex for surfing'? It's blatantly outside the standards and norms of the community.
Why, on a site like couchsurfing, would there be any implied sex, or opportunity for misunderstanding around 'sex for surfing'? It's blatantly outside the standards and norms of the community.
I think he's arguing (and I would agree) that it is blatantly WITHIN the standards and norms for some dudes to complete ignore community mores and bend/break every rule imaginable to get laid. The risk is non-zero. At the individual level, everyone should acknowledge the risk, assess it, and implement control measures to reduce its potential impacts on you, personally. To fail to account for it is simply dangerously naive.
I don't think I've used Couchsurfer since....2012? Roughly the same time I discovered Tinder. I absolutely treated CS as a dating site where you had to be extremely discrete/low-key in your approach. I rarely offered my couch but did offer local tour guide-like services to cute women which was essentially a first date. I would never consider staying at a male host's place; even as a Marine I would assume the rape/murder risk too high. Maybe I'm just a misanthropic cynic but I don't trust anyone to behave themselves. I also have never seen the appeal of the "broke backpacker" travel methodology, perhaps colored by experiences living out of a backpack in the military, which usually sucks. If I have the money to fly halfway around the world, I should have the money to afford comfortable private accommodations. If I'm going to mingle, I'd prefer to mingle with the locals rather than other foreigners on a shoestring budget (or rich people PRETENDING to be on a shoestring budget).
I don't think I've used Couchsurfer since....2012? Roughly the same time I discovered Tinder. I absolutely treated CS as a dating site where you had to be extremely discrete/low-key in your approach. I rarely offered my couch but did offer local tour guide-like services to cute women which was essentially a first date. I would never consider staying at a male host's place; even as a Marine I would assume the rape/murder risk too high. Maybe I'm just a misanthropic cynic but I don't trust anyone to behave themselves. I also have never seen the appeal of the "broke backpacker" travel methodology, perhaps colored by experiences living out of a backpack in the military, which usually sucks. If I have the money to fly halfway around the world, I should have the money to afford comfortable private accommodations. If I'm going to mingle, I'd prefer to mingle with the locals rather than other foreigners on a shoestring budget (or rich people PRETENDING to be on a shoestring budget).
Yes, dudes are going to be creepy. The earth is round. Some will work outside the spirit of couchsurfing. Yourself included, to a degree. Ok.
But he also was arguing, IIUC, that the sex for stay is implied for women. I get that people will use it that way, but implying that it is any sort of norm is a very perverted view of couchsurfing. One that I never experienced, or found to be normal from many people i've talked to along the way.
But he also was arguing, IIUC, that the sex for stay is implied for women. I get that people will use it that way, but implying that it is any sort of norm is a very perverted view of couchsurfing. One that I never experienced, or found to be normal from many people i've talked to along the way.
>>>But he also was arguing, IIUC, that the sex for stay is implied for women.
Ok, I see the distinction you are making but....I think all women should operate under the assumption that if a man invites you into a private residence, for ANY reason, sex is on the menu. At least that way one is never (negatively) surprised. If I have daughters I think this is an important thing to drill into their heads. A guy says he wants to show you his collection of Warhammer 40,000 figures, at 1pm? You still won't be taken aback when he's suddenly pantsless.
>>>implying that it is any sort of norm is a very perverted view of couchsurfing. One that I never experienced, or found to be normal from many people i've talked to along the way.
I think my experience is just the opposite, but about 95% of my social circle is manwhores, the other 5% are males who aren't manwhores, but wish they were (a mix of younger, inexperienced officers or civilian IT/engineer guys). But this is why I'm on HN, to step outside of my bubble and exchange experiences with people with radically different backgrounds and perspectives.
Ok, I see the distinction you are making but....I think all women should operate under the assumption that if a man invites you into a private residence, for ANY reason, sex is on the menu. At least that way one is never (negatively) surprised. If I have daughters I think this is an important thing to drill into their heads. A guy says he wants to show you his collection of Warhammer 40,000 figures, at 1pm? You still won't be taken aback when he's suddenly pantsless.
>>>implying that it is any sort of norm is a very perverted view of couchsurfing. One that I never experienced, or found to be normal from many people i've talked to along the way.
I think my experience is just the opposite, but about 95% of my social circle is manwhores, the other 5% are males who aren't manwhores, but wish they were (a mix of younger, inexperienced officers or civilian IT/engineer guys). But this is why I'm on HN, to step outside of my bubble and exchange experiences with people with radically different backgrounds and perspectives.
It's not creepy, it's how human babies are made.
I didn't mean it was sex for stay, just that for many people the whole experience was very much sexual. I mean, for crying out loud, it's a young, attractive woman going to stay at some dude's bachelor pad. Some people here must think women are so stupid. They know exactly what's going on.
I didn't mean it was sex for stay, just that for many people the whole experience was very much sexual. I mean, for crying out loud, it's a young, attractive woman going to stay at some dude's bachelor pad. Some people here must think women are so stupid. They know exactly what's going on.
> If I'm going to mingle, I'd prefer to mingle with the locals rather than other foreigners
I don't understand you here: that's the whole point of couchsurfing! You're staying with "real people", instead of yet another backpacker hostel
I don't understand you here: that's the whole point of couchsurfing! You're staying with "real people", instead of yet another backpacker hostel
Sorry I kinda jumped subjects mid-post from Couchsurfing to backpacking, after reading some comments of how many CS guests are just trying to get a dirt-cheap roof over their head and don't interact much with their host. I don't recall many "local single woman hosting single guy" posts back in 2011-12 when I used CS anyway, not for places I was considering (Eastern Europe and SE Asia).
> what you think should be true versus what actually is true
That's what laws are for. Shaping society so that it's like what we want rather than the jungle
> If you think women can afford to take the same risks as men when travelling
When did anyone in this thread ever say that?
> No, but if I were you I would at least consider that there might be a "misunderstanding" leading to you having to find alternative accommodation
I'd prefer to live in a world where I don't have to make that choice, hence society shunning people who would put others in that position
That's what laws are for. Shaping society so that it's like what we want rather than the jungle
> If you think women can afford to take the same risks as men when travelling
When did anyone in this thread ever say that?
> No, but if I were you I would at least consider that there might be a "misunderstanding" leading to you having to find alternative accommodation
I'd prefer to live in a world where I don't have to make that choice, hence society shunning people who would put others in that position
> it was de rigueur to have sex with their hosts.
On which website and what country is this?
To anyone reading this -- that is absolutely NOT the norm, speaking as a dude who has hosted and couchsurfed a bit.
On which website and what country is this?
To anyone reading this -- that is absolutely NOT the norm, speaking as a dude who has hosted and couchsurfed a bit.
Jesus christ, this is wrong on so many levels.
hombre_fatal(1)
No. But if you host on CS in order to make advances towards women, that is creepy behavior and not what the site is intended for. If you want to get laid, use Tinder etc. instead.
A girl I met on Tinder used CS to find interesting people and have sex with them. It seems like something men and women have been denying but engaging in for centuries.
I couchsurfed throughout my 20s and it wasn't uncommon to hook up with the host/guest if they were cool. Any app that's geared toward meeting people is going to be like that, regardless of one's puritan views. That's exactly part of the human connection that the site is intended for, like it or not.
It's no less of a potential hookup app for women as it is for men. You don't think women want to me interesting guys to fuck? Else women wouldn't even stay with men. They already avoid the guys with bad reviews.
It's no less of a potential hookup app for women as it is for men. You don't think women want to me interesting guys to fuck? Else women wouldn't even stay with men. They already avoid the guys with bad reviews.
Hosts hitting on their guests has always been regarded as a gross violation of hospitality. The biblical story of Lot is all about that.
> The biblical story of Lot is all about that.
The moral flaw "the crowd" made was that it was men attempting to coerce sex from other men. Lot wanted to solve the problem by throwing his virgin daughters into the crowd.. which was apparently a perfectly righteous thing to do.
And anyways, that's why you shouldn't get your morality from an ancient book from a very different culture. Please don't throw any of your family members into crowds of rapists, it's not polite.
The moral flaw "the crowd" made was that it was men attempting to coerce sex from other men. Lot wanted to solve the problem by throwing his virgin daughters into the crowd.. which was apparently a perfectly righteous thing to do.
And anyways, that's why you shouldn't get your morality from an ancient book from a very different culture. Please don't throw any of your family members into crowds of rapists, it's not polite.
There is a similar story in Judges 19–21, the story about The Levite's Concubine[0]. The main difference is the lack of supernatural elements in this story. Instead the outcome is civil war among the Israelites.
[0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Levite%27s_Concubine
[0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Levite%27s_Concubine
You're making a common mistake seen in these discussions by creating a tautology by defining "hitting on" as always a gross violation of hospitality. Or something that obviously makes someone uncomfortable.
Let's not forget that hitting on someone is a continuum that ranges from flirtatious banter that you can enjoy with anyone to one's twisted idea of what hitting on someone entails that makes all their guests uncomfortable. Like asking "wanna fuck?"
Yes, hitting on someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable does make them uncomfortable and makes you a bad host. But I worry that you have an unhealthy understanding of flirting if you don't think it's something you or anyone can do without making someone else uncomfortable.
Let's not forget that hitting on someone is a continuum that ranges from flirtatious banter that you can enjoy with anyone to one's twisted idea of what hitting on someone entails that makes all their guests uncomfortable. Like asking "wanna fuck?"
Yes, hitting on someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable does make them uncomfortable and makes you a bad host. But I worry that you have an unhealthy understanding of flirting if you don't think it's something you or anyone can do without making someone else uncomfortable.
In some contexts, yes it can be. If that involves, for example, unwanted physical contact. A broader term is harassment, but either is bad. IANAL, and the legal definition may vary by location and situation.
See: https://theconversation.com/whats-the-difference-between-sex...
See: https://theconversation.com/whats-the-difference-between-sex...
If it's not, let the guy just say on his profile that he's looking for something more, and see who comes along.
[deleted]
Come to think of it why don't men just walk around town with a big sign saying "SEX WANTED" on it? I can't believe nobody has thought of this before.
I have to wonder how much of this thread is just stereotypically sheltered programmers not realizing that you can have consensual sex without any rigmarole, and that many women are actually looking for it if you're a cool guy that they like, even if they pick you as the house they want to sleep in while traveling, which in my experience often involves some beers with the host.
One clue is that it's just focused on men flirting with women that's inappropriate here.
All I can gather is that some HNers need to find a new way to low-key flirt with people that doesn't make them(self) think "oh, this must be sexual harassment, this is bad".
One clue is that it's just focused on men flirting with women that's inappropriate here.
All I can gather is that some HNers need to find a new way to low-key flirt with people that doesn't make them(self) think "oh, this must be sexual harassment, this is bad".
I think people are just pointing out there’s a distinction between:
1) hosting someone with no expectations, hitting it off and consensually getting together
2) hosting someone with the uncommunicated expectation they will sleep with you and pressuring someone alone in your house in a strange country until they consent.
People are cool with 1 and not with 2.
1) hosting someone with no expectations, hitting it off and consensually getting together
2) hosting someone with the uncommunicated expectation they will sleep with you and pressuring someone alone in your house in a strange country until they consent.
People are cool with 1 and not with 2.
The programmers brain easily gets stuck on a thought loop similar to the _categorical imperative_; in which if something is true, it must be applicable in _all_ circumstances.
Human life however is not an infinite array of possibilities, but stay in very specific zones for most of the time.
Think about it; exponential behavior would propably be deemed bad for most things out there in code, but if you knew the iterations never peaked above 3, it doesen't apply. Much like in real life, you have concrete real values that never really change, unlike the abstract unknowable problems you're used to dealing with.
Human life however is not an infinite array of possibilities, but stay in very specific zones for most of the time.
Think about it; exponential behavior would propably be deemed bad for most things out there in code, but if you knew the iterations never peaked above 3, it doesen't apply. Much like in real life, you have concrete real values that never really change, unlike the abstract unknowable problems you're used to dealing with.
I've participated in couch surfing for years when I was younger (single/childless) & the worst that happened (I hosted a lot more than I surfed) was that some people are just not that nice/interesting. I had many more positive experiences.
Keep in mind I'm a pretty big, able-bodied guy & at the time I was in my 20s. If I was a small woman living alone I may have skipped hosting single men.
Keep in mind I'm a pretty big, able-bodied guy & at the time I was in my 20s. If I was a small woman living alone I may have skipped hosting single men.
Great comment. I've used couchsurfing in 2008-2009 a bit, but never to stay - just to meet local people when I was traveling for work in foreign places.
The weird thing is, AirBnB came along, and I keep reading the sentence "nobody believed that hosting a stranger at home would work", which made me internally scream "but there's couchsurfing!!".
In fact, I think that Couchsurfing (the website/company) had a chance to become like AirBnB. They didn't. Maybe intentionally.
The weird thing is, AirBnB came along, and I keep reading the sentence "nobody believed that hosting a stranger at home would work", which made me internally scream "but there's couchsurfing!!".
In fact, I think that Couchsurfing (the website/company) had a chance to become like AirBnB. They didn't. Maybe intentionally.
The cross-pollination effect of Couchsurfing is so powerful. I often wonder — how could you create a digital equivalent of this?
We let strangers into our homes, but not into our superuser shell. Why?
We let strangers into our homes, but not into our superuser shell. Why?
It's harder to pretend you're a human in physical form than in digital form?
Furthermore, there's more law enforcement on physical crimes than digital crimes.
In some ways. In other ways, everything on a computer can and might be recorded so it’s prudent to stay away from borderline illegal or inappropriate things if it can come back to you.
I love reading about your enthusiasm for Couchsurfing and your philosophy that comes with it. You should write a book. I'd love reading real stories, along with some reflections. It sounds like a nice way to meet people as they are. Authenticity is scarce and we need it.
This article is about the business CouchSurfing rather than the action of couch surfing.
Just as a note, the link in your profile to your CSS framework seems incorrect. Groeten!
Fixed! Bedankt :)
I was thinking about hosting on my boat too but I thought risky. Any pro tips?
I'm curious. What percentage of female surfers did you sleep with?
It's mostly a sex thing though, no? I can't imagine it isn't.
Some people abuse it and try and get sex but it’s not the norm. It’s far easier to find sex on one of the many apps designed for that.
Not at all, it's really about meeting people.
Tinder and Grindr are also about "meeting people".
Yes and both are more specific about the type of meets. Grindr even has fields for your sexual preferences.
The number of sexual relationships that start off with the explicit intention of being sexual are vanishingly small. Grindr is an exception because it's aimed at gay men. Most other platforms provide at least a small amount of reasonable doubt. On Tinder you merely select which demographics you are "interested in". There is absolutely no mention of sex or sexual preferences on the app. And Tinder is considered one of the more obvious ones.
If Couchsurfing was truly about meeting people then the profiles wouldn't have gender and age on them. But they do.
If Couchsurfing was truly about meeting people then the profiles wouldn't have gender and age on them. But they do.
Well said. The whole gambit of sex is that you have to suss it out from each other with tact and awareness without either person being explicit about it -- hell, even on a taxi ride to a motel to do the damn act.
That means that it's always potentially on the table any time you have human connection going on, couchsurfing included. Nothing about couchsurfing means this isn't happening or shouldn't be happening. It's just part of life and human connection.
After reading these comments, I do think that the miscommunication here is a lack of shared understanding of what flirting is.
I presume some people's imaginations immediately go to a host making guests uncomfortable by laying unwanted attention on thick, like the stereotype of the guy coming out in a short robe and hiking his leg up on the arm of the couch.
But I would like people who imagine that to know that most flirting lives in the banter area where both people are having a good time.
That means that it's always potentially on the table any time you have human connection going on, couchsurfing included. Nothing about couchsurfing means this isn't happening or shouldn't be happening. It's just part of life and human connection.
After reading these comments, I do think that the miscommunication here is a lack of shared understanding of what flirting is.
I presume some people's imaginations immediately go to a host making guests uncomfortable by laying unwanted attention on thick, like the stereotype of the guy coming out in a short robe and hiking his leg up on the arm of the couch.
But I would like people who imagine that to know that most flirting lives in the banter area where both people are having a good time.
Not going to lie the idea that some people I interact with think sex is always going to be on the table wigs me out. There’s a wide variety of libidos and sexualities among humans, many of which don’t operate in the manner being expressed above. (Eg. Demisexuality.)
Sure there is. But the vast majority of people have a normal sex drive. Every single person on earth is the result of a man and woman having sex. It's one of the single most important things in life for most people.
I don't genuinely know if it is the vast majority of people consider having a sexual encounter at all times whenever they interact with another human being.
Short answer: no. I usually prefer to host men and I’m straight. Women can be great guests but my girlfriend gets jealous.
>If community powered websites like Reddit can survive
Reddit is backed by venture capital and shifted heavily to be more advertiser friendly.
Reddit is backed by venture capital and shifted heavily to be more advertiser friendly.
Not quite. Reddit is owned by Conde Nast, a public company. In fact, Couchsurfing is the one here backed by VC, having taken in $22.5m.
Edit: I'm totally wrong about Reddit. They're both currently VC backed companies.
Edit: I'm totally wrong about Reddit. They're both currently VC backed companies.
>Not quite. Reddit is owned by Conde Nast,
not since 2011 [0]
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit
not since 2011 [0]
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit
Reddit is still raising large investment sums from outside companies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-reddit-funding/reddit-val...
Conde Nast did own it at some point, then it was transferred out and Conde Nast's parent is the majority owner (or was? the news report above only lists them as one investor).
Conde Nast did own it at some point, then it was transferred out and Conde Nast's parent is the majority owner (or was? the news report above only lists them as one investor).
Reddit is raising plenty of money too.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-raises-300-million-at...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-raises-300-million-at...
I don't know how Hacker News manages to stay so pure, given that it's run by venture capitalists, yet still remains free of ads and open to newcomers. Monetising CS is like demanding a signup fee to join HN: it will drastically change the community.
Hacker News is smaller than most major subreddits in terms of usage. 400 upvotes is considered a lot here. The site is extremely simple and something that could be replicated in a couple of days at most by most engineers. It doesn't process money or really require a lot of content moderation either.
That is all true but the real answer is that it is run as a charity project by billionaires. So it doesn't need to be monetized.
Ehh there's a really pro ycombinator slant and ever notice how any yc announcement, hiring notice, or article quickly hits the top? They're getting a lot of value out of that stuff that helps with the VC side of things.
> Ehh there's a really pro ycombinator slant and ever notice how any yc announcement
The site is literally news.ycombinator.com... and you're surprised it's slated towards ycombinator?
The site is literally news.ycombinator.com... and you're surprised it's slated towards ycombinator?
I don't think the parent is surprised, no.
Who would hate on YCombinator?
There are some legitimate arguments about how VC backed startups have behaved as of late, and YC is part of that overall system.
I’m not sure where I personally sit, but I think it’s a bit silly to pretend that YC is universally beloved or beyond reproach.
I’m not sure where I personally sit, but I think it’s a bit silly to pretend that YC is universally beloved or beyond reproach.
HN makes no secret out of that. Reddir has Tencent's influence crippling them.
The fact that YC doesn't need to monetize HN , and others mentioned how so much talented is sourced here is what makes it a good and comfortable place for technologists and tech enthusiasts.
Although, I am still a wee bit dissappointed at the lack of discussion about actual hacking.
The fact that YC doesn't need to monetize HN , and others mentioned how so much talented is sourced here is what makes it a good and comfortable place for technologists and tech enthusiasts.
Although, I am still a wee bit dissappointed at the lack of discussion about actual hacking.
Sure, but the criticisms mostly don't apply to companies in the seed stage. YC is somewhat removed from the mainstream critiques of startups mostly by sitting at the part of the process where startups are most startup-like, ironically enough.
You’re not wrong, but we’re talking about different things. Culturally YC is more associated with startup culture, even if their direct involvement ends after the seed stage.
I did not think it was universally beloved, but just never read any negative viewpoint about them so was curious.
Keep in mind that YC is very visible. As a result, complaints about VC behavior in general will accumulate to YC, since they’re often the public face of startups and startup culture. That might not be fair or ever correct, but it’s how people work.
Personally, YC’s involvement in AirBnB is my biggest complaint with the company. I’m not sure how it looked from the inside before hand, but in retrospect AirBnB is one of the poster children of VC backed companies extracting profits at the cost of society, and I suspect that they probably should’ve known better.
Personally, YC’s involvement in AirBnB is my biggest complaint with the company. I’m not sure how it looked from the inside before hand, but in retrospect AirBnB is one of the poster children of VC backed companies extracting profits at the cost of society, and I suspect that they probably should’ve known better.
Extracting profits at the cost of society may be a bad thing for you and me, but it might be a good thing for YC.
I'm reminded of Paul Graham's words on unions:
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/663456748494127104?lang=en
From his perspective, it could be that society is something standing in the way of profits.
I'm reminded of Paul Graham's words on unions:
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/663456748494127104?lang=en
From his perspective, it could be that society is something standing in the way of profits.
Are you saying something like everything is relative? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
I'm sorry for the lack of clarity. I should have been explicit in saying, I agree that treating society as a thing you can vacuum wealth out of is a bad thing; the people who run a VC firm (and who view unions as an indicator for industries to "disrupt") may view that as a good thing, or as the goal.
That should tell you something important about them.
That should tell you something important about them.
Also, society stands in the way of progress. You can’t have both. Progress and no-profits.
> AirBnB is one of the poster children of VC backed companies extracting profits at the cost of society
Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? Because hard data shows exactly the opposite: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2018/beyond-bls/how-airbnb-has-...
Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? Because hard data shows exactly the opposite: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2018/beyond-bls/how-airbnb-has-...
That’s focusing on AirBnB’s effect on the hotel industry, but I’m more concerned about AirBnB’s effect on the rent market. This is a subject that’s been pretty well covered here before.
I don’t think you read the link before downvoting it. It’s about the effect on the hotel industry as well as consumers and hosts.
You also haven’t provided any evidence to back up your claim. I’d be curious to read it, if it exists.
You also haven’t provided any evidence to back up your claim. I’d be curious to read it, if it exists.
Any of the non-founder employees who work at one of their hundreds of portfolio companies that have refused to go public. Literally only one company backed by YC, Dropbox, has gone public to date.
Does Y Combinator have a lot of companies that could go public? Most do not seem IPO ready.
And what does any of that have to do with YC?
And what does any of that have to do with YC?
My comment was in response to "Who would hate on YCombinator." To expand on my answer: All of the employees who were duped into taking a low salary in exchange for the promise of valuable equity are the ones who would hate on YC.
Probably a return of investment priced without the Ponzi-smell.
Jason Calacanis, repeatedly, and vociferously.
Intriguing. Lots of interesting reading there.
Haven’t you noticed the years long media campaign to try and get the public to hate tech? It hasn’t been very successful but it’s not like there aren’t a lot of people who hate every single person who work in the technology industry.
I get that angle, but have never read any criticism specific to YC.
They probably source enough engineers on here to make it more bait rather than charity.
There are very few billionaire charity projects that don't have some kind of bait stench associated with them...
This site is a lot less brazen that, say the Gates Foundation or Jack Dorseys "all the strings attached" charity "donations", but there's no doubt it's run in the interests of YC and they're doing it for the benefits they get.
Not that I begrudge them that. It just needs to be something you bear in mind when wondering about odd looking article rankings or apparent voting/submission patterns that evade the fraud detection... It's their space, they can do that if they want. I (and everyone else) needs to weight up the benefit to themselves against the benefit to the people in control, and determine whether to hang around here, or walk away. For me? They do an OK job of not taking too m much advantage of their ultimate power here. I'm mostly cool with them.
This site is a lot less brazen that, say the Gates Foundation or Jack Dorseys "all the strings attached" charity "donations", but there's no doubt it's run in the interests of YC and they're doing it for the benefits they get.
Not that I begrudge them that. It just needs to be something you bear in mind when wondering about odd looking article rankings or apparent voting/submission patterns that evade the fraud detection... It's their space, they can do that if they want. I (and everyone else) needs to weight up the benefit to themselves against the benefit to the people in control, and determine whether to hang around here, or walk away. For me? They do an OK job of not taking too m much advantage of their ultimate power here. I'm mostly cool with them.
I think it lands in a place between 'charity project' and 'neglible expense of time and effort'.
> The site is extremely simple and something that could be replicated in a couple of days at most by most engineers.
I'm a little skeptical of this. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's not going to win any ACM awards for innovation in web development - it's a simple web app. I know this. But I think it's well beyond the 2-day prototype mark.
Because I know what a cheapo off-the-shelf, 2-day-product or PHP forum feels like, and Hacker News doesn't feel like that. It's a little more fine-grained and thoughtful than that.
The design, and probably countless little feature improvements that take time to make: I think these have accreted over time, a tiny bit at a time. And for what it's worth, getting comments to nest (stored in DB, parent, child, child of child etc.) and then to show that correctly in the UI isn't quite as easy as people who haven't attempted it might think.
And then things like downvoted comments being faded, next page loading at screen bottom, setting up the API... it all adds up.
I'm a little skeptical of this. Don't get me wrong, I understand that it's not going to win any ACM awards for innovation in web development - it's a simple web app. I know this. But I think it's well beyond the 2-day prototype mark.
Because I know what a cheapo off-the-shelf, 2-day-product or PHP forum feels like, and Hacker News doesn't feel like that. It's a little more fine-grained and thoughtful than that.
The design, and probably countless little feature improvements that take time to make: I think these have accreted over time, a tiny bit at a time. And for what it's worth, getting comments to nest (stored in DB, parent, child, child of child etc.) and then to show that correctly in the UI isn't quite as easy as people who haven't attempted it might think.
And then things like downvoted comments being faded, next page loading at screen bottom, setting up the API... it all adds up.
Sure, but a mvp that does 75% of it is definitely possible in a weekend for a pair of really good in-the-zone coders. I'd argue that if you actually list out all these minor features fully, it's even possible to flesh it out completely in 4-5 very long days. Even otherwise, this could easily be a site that starts with a full weekend of work for mvp, followed by gradual refininig over the next few months with feedback needing no more than a Saturday afternoon. I wouldn't even consider myself the best coder out there and I have definitely coded something in a similar timeline in the past - a Netflix style book lending website with queues, inventories, user auth, the whole shebang. Im sure it wouldn't work in the same scale as HN, but I doubt it would have been that hard to keep up.
As I typed this I realized how unsubstantiated this claim looks, and to be frank the cost of just doing this isn't even that high, so I'm probably just going to do this next weekend for giggles. Let's see!
As I typed this I realized how unsubstantiated this claim looks, and to be frank the cost of just doing this isn't even that high, so I'm probably just going to do this next weekend for giggles. Let's see!
I hope you did better than Netflix. It's horrible to navigate. For example it's really really not obvious how you find previous seasons of a show.
I've been following Netflix for really long, and whatever downgrade in their UX is absolutely deliberate on their part to hide their library's flaws.
If you really wish to go back to the original view, you should consider giving Netflix dvd a try. You get DVDs and on top of it the original site with five star ratings, predicted rating and most importantly the ability to sort by predicted rating in any genre!
If you really wish to go back to the original view, you should consider giving Netflix dvd a try. You get DVDs and on top of it the original site with five star ratings, predicted rating and most importantly the ability to sort by predicted rating in any genre!
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Given ycombinator's market cap, it might be the most cost-effective loss leader in history.
> or really require a lot of content moderation
I'm not sure about that. HN is moderated very effectively. I couldn't comment on the workload there, not being a moderator.
I'm not sure about that. HN is moderated very effectively. I couldn't comment on the workload there, not being a moderator.
I think YC doesn't publish the numbers to prevent a bandwagon effect from happening. Or do you know more about the numbers?
HN is run as a side gig, modded by iirc 2 or 3 staffers. Simple tech stack with next to zero new features, so not too capital intensive.
Plus: there are a shitload of people from all over the world here, ranging from broke devs in "third world countries" over German journalists to US VC CEOs. HN is essentially a gateway to a lot of influential people... a "soft power" in politics terms. And one with real monetary value as HN is an excellent place for new YC companies to get users, staff, or a network. An advantage that other VC funds do not have.
Plus: there are a shitload of people from all over the world here, ranging from broke devs in "third world countries" over German journalists to US VC CEOs. HN is essentially a gateway to a lot of influential people... a "soft power" in politics terms. And one with real monetary value as HN is an excellent place for new YC companies to get users, staff, or a network. An advantage that other VC funds do not have.
> HN is run as a side gig, modded by iirc 2 or 3 staffers.
I think it may be just one now - sctb's last comment here was 8 months ago.
I think it may be just one now - sctb's last comment here was 8 months ago.
> Hacker News manages to stay so pure
we're still the product https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs
it's mutually beneficial, compared to say straight up advertising, but still.
we're still the product https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs
it's mutually beneficial, compared to say straight up advertising, but still.
> I don't know how Hacker News manages to stay so pure
It's heavily moderated, more so than Reddit. Right now is an interesting time because COVID posts are weighted to quickly fall off the front page (I'm not really complaining, this is a tech link site and I can see how those get annoying; no one wants to think about that right now, but if you see one of those threads, they are some of the most interesting and controversial, so check them out before they fall off).
It's heavily moderated, more so than Reddit. Right now is an interesting time because COVID posts are weighted to quickly fall off the front page (I'm not really complaining, this is a tech link site and I can see how those get annoying; no one wants to think about that right now, but if you see one of those threads, they are some of the most interesting and controversial, so check them out before they fall off).
> COVID posts are weighted to quickly fall off the front page (I'm not really complaining, this is a tech link site and I can see how those get annoying
Agreed. There is no shortage of COVID coverage, like, everywhere so I'm glad that they slide away quickly.
That said, I do appreciate the hard looks the HN crowd takes on some of the posted studies.
Agreed. There is no shortage of COVID coverage, like, everywhere so I'm glad that they slide away quickly.
That said, I do appreciate the hard looks the HN crowd takes on some of the posted studies.
1. Moderation, by thoughtful paid moderators. In particular I think the style of moderation is pretty good here
2. Light curation (pushing posts that aren’t a “good fit” down the rankings; asking people to resubmit good submissions that flopped)
3. I feel like it’s changed quite a lot in the last 10 years or so I’ve been reading the site. The popular topics have changed. I see fewer of some kinds of stupid comment and more of other kinds of stupid comment. But it’s hard to describe what the changes are.
2. Light curation (pushing posts that aren’t a “good fit” down the rankings; asking people to resubmit good submissions that flopped)
3. I feel like it’s changed quite a lot in the last 10 years or so I’ve been reading the site. The popular topics have changed. I see fewer of some kinds of stupid comment and more of other kinds of stupid comment. But it’s hard to describe what the changes are.
HN is subsidized by Y Combinator. The costs of running HN are probably a drop in the bucket of the money sloshing around YC.
HN is maybe the only social network that is actually for socializing and networking. It’s also the only one that has figured out a way to monetize a network of people that doesn’t involve counting eyeballs and clicks.
Networks are so valuable and important to success it’s actually kind of crazy that surveillance and advertising is the only strategy most social networks have been able to come up with so far.
Networks are so valuable and important to success it’s actually kind of crazy that surveillance and advertising is the only strategy most social networks have been able to come up with so far.
I've never socialized neither networked here, but I've learned a ton thanks to the quality of the discussion. It taught me a lot about the importance of moderation, and rules in general.
The network HN grows isn’t yours, it’s YC’s. It grows their network of applicants and helps their network of funded companies reach new audiences of users and high quality technical employees via things like Launch HN and the featured hiring posts.
And I’d call a comment a form of socializing. Who knows? A maybe one of your comments here put the seed in someone’s head to launch a new startup. That seems like the kind of socializing YC would be interested in fostering to me.
And I’d call a comment a form of socializing. Who knows? A maybe one of your comments here put the seed in someone’s head to launch a new startup. That seems like the kind of socializing YC would be interested in fostering to me.
if you really don't know, you may want to delve more deeply into the value of HN for said venture capitalists--it's not to make a few bucks on the side. think about the community and who they need in the companies they fund.
[deleted]
It's a loss-leader for the owners.
Reddit gold, etc is probably a small portion of their revenu?
Reddit has about 100 million in revenue.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-users-are-the-least-v...
The coins seem to be a couple hundred thousand a month.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ak1769/red...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-users-are-the-least-v...
The coins seem to be a couple hundred thousand a month.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/ak1769/red...
Couchsurfing, I love you, but y'all have a horrible business model.
Between 2017 & 2019, I hosted about Couchsurfers. I initially paid to verify my identity, and I paid a few dollars per quarter (I forget how much) to maintain my membership. Then I needed to change my credit card. There was literally no option to change my credit card. In order to change my credit card, I had to let me credit card expire. Wat.
In there recent email about running out of money, they were looking for people to spend $2.49 USD/month or $14.99 USD/year. I was like "hey, I can finally support them!" So I clicked on the link, and because I already have a verified membership, there was still no option to pay. I contacted support asking how I could pay, and instead of giving me a way to send them cash, they gave me ANOTHER FREE YEAR of verified membership. Wat.
Maybe start a Patreon? It'd be hard to screw that one up.
Between 2017 & 2019, I hosted about Couchsurfers. I initially paid to verify my identity, and I paid a few dollars per quarter (I forget how much) to maintain my membership. Then I needed to change my credit card. There was literally no option to change my credit card. In order to change my credit card, I had to let me credit card expire. Wat.
In there recent email about running out of money, they were looking for people to spend $2.49 USD/month or $14.99 USD/year. I was like "hey, I can finally support them!" So I clicked on the link, and because I already have a verified membership, there was still no option to pay. I contacted support asking how I could pay, and instead of giving me a way to send them cash, they gave me ANOTHER FREE YEAR of verified membership. Wat.
Maybe start a Patreon? It'd be hard to screw that one up.
Was supposed to say "hosted about 50 couch surfers".
Couchsurfing was fantastic in its early days, then came the era of using websites for just-a-little-bit-too-much-dating, then they went .com and tried to be "cool" with redesigns, eventually drowning the simplicity of their concept a little bit too much.
That $25 yearly fee slapped onto everything, with no chance to even connect with previous contacts, is disappointing to say the least.
No doubt that the meaning of "couchsurfing" will far outlast the website, especially now.
There are creepy amounts of guys who only host young, attractive women. It used to be more like hosting anyone - young, old, any gender, and sharing travel tales.
This has been my vicarious experience. The friends of mine who were young, attractive women who tried Couchsurfing all ended up with creepy stories along the lines of "Oh yeah I stayed with this guy, and then — funny story — it turns out he only has one bed! Ho ho ho…"
I still think it's pretty fantastic and I have had great experiences with it in the last 3 years. The design sucks but things like hangouts and meetups are worthwhile even for travelers who do not feel comfortable staying in someone's house.
Their app is also pretty bad, to the point it became standard to just exchange whatsapp numbers right off the bat to make communication possible.
Couchsurfing has a great community, but it has been resting on its laurels for too long.
Couchsurfing has a great community, but it has been resting on its laurels for too long.
CS generated billions in social capital but that can be hard to monetize. I wish they had solicited donations sooner and not raised that 10M round.
They could have started a Patreon or buy me coffee-esque donation model several years ago and people would have been down to help sustain them.
It seems that mid 2000s internet knew how to use CS without being creepy but more and more of the 2010s internet just didn't. There were so many allegations of harassment and women not feeling comfortable. One woman traveler I met said if she even logged in in India, she would get 6-7 invites from men to stay with her. Seems like this 'travelers near you' feature maybe had some downsides.
It's also just hard to stay relevant with the rise of facebook, airbnb, and reddit. It's a bummer they didn't stay more focused. Gosh, I would have loved to work for them back when I lived near the mission, but it sounds like it would have been incredibly frustrating.
They could have started a Patreon or buy me coffee-esque donation model several years ago and people would have been down to help sustain them.
It seems that mid 2000s internet knew how to use CS without being creepy but more and more of the 2010s internet just didn't. There were so many allegations of harassment and women not feeling comfortable. One woman traveler I met said if she even logged in in India, she would get 6-7 invites from men to stay with her. Seems like this 'travelers near you' feature maybe had some downsides.
It's also just hard to stay relevant with the rise of facebook, airbnb, and reddit. It's a bummer they didn't stay more focused. Gosh, I would have loved to work for them back when I lived near the mission, but it sounds like it would have been incredibly frustrating.
This really reminds me of how podcasts have gone. It used to be that nine out of ten podcasts I listened to had no ads - they were about spreading a message or having fun, or getting some personal recognition. They didn't have major overhead because it's cheap to come on once every week or two and chat with your buddies. Now, not only are there many high-quality professional podcasts, but the old fashioned ones I enjoy have all one by one gotten in on the game. Eventually podcasting became something you either made money at or you were doing it wrong (see also: blogs). When even BackStory and The Skeptics Guide to the Universe are shilling for Blue Apron that transition is complete.
If you're looking for people who are still having silly fun, have a look at Twitch and the folks over at 'just chatting' or I think there's a section specifically for programming? Those channels very much have that informal vibe.
Regarding making money or doing it wrong - says who? The barrier to entry for podcasting has never been lower. It's all in people's heads :)
Regarding making money or doing it wrong - says who? The barrier to entry for podcasting has never been lower. It's all in people's heads :)
It's capitalism, many people have Bills that need paying and they don't have the incredible resources many of us on HN do.
Couchsurfing was the website that allowed dozens of young people from developing countries to do world trips. Imagine being in your early twenties surrounded by limitations; no money, no job but a bright & open mind who wants to see the world, despite all the travel restrictions. Couchsurfing was the magic of internet that helped young & bright but not rich young people. Some investors bought it and killed it.
In related news, https://www.warmshowers.org/ (a couchsurfing, but only for cyclists) also changed "business model" this month. However, they will not charge existing active users and only ask new sign-ups for 30 USD once for lifetime access.
https://www.warmshowers.org/sites/default/files/files/inline...
https://www.warmshowers.org/sites/default/files/files/inline...
Did they do a "host only" free signup?
I left couchsurfing (which i used mostly for hosting) to warmshowers where I've hosted a dozen or two guests over the last few years. I've never traveled on a bike and don't have any plans to. The guests are great, since bike touring is a filter for a certain kind of person.
I don't know I would have signed up if it were $30 (though it has obviously been worth it).
One of my "things to do when im rich" daydreams was to visit my favorite guests/host from CS in a world tour. Most I didn't exchange numbers or emails with, but having their good reviews on my profile was a monument of what the kind of person I wanted to be. If it's true I can't message them now, I should've got rich sooner.
I left couchsurfing (which i used mostly for hosting) to warmshowers where I've hosted a dozen or two guests over the last few years. I've never traveled on a bike and don't have any plans to. The guests are great, since bike touring is a filter for a certain kind of person.
I don't know I would have signed up if it were $30 (though it has obviously been worth it).
One of my "things to do when im rich" daydreams was to visit my favorite guests/host from CS in a world tour. Most I didn't exchange numbers or emails with, but having their good reviews on my profile was a monument of what the kind of person I wanted to be. If it's true I can't message them now, I should've got rich sooner.
Thanks for sharing. WS is a great case study. I've known a lot of people who have used it and it doesn't have the sexual harassment and/or hookup thing of CS.
It also feels much more barebones, which I'd say people kind of like.
It also feels much more barebones, which I'd say people kind of like.
There seems to be a lot of anger in my local community. Probably 10:1 angry vs. supportive. It's sad because this is the end of the sharing economy that got overrun by the gig economy. I'm not sure the network will move to another site, and there's a lot of friction to redraw all the lines of connection and reviews.
Couchsurfing is like a master class in how to destroy community engagement in your business/project.
So, back before the ubiquity of 2 or 3 social media sites, CouchSurfing was a quirky place to meet travelers and let them crash on your couch. One of the things that made it work was profile reviews and couch requests. The second thing was the community forums.
The profile reviews and couch requests acted as a quality filter. Bad reviews lead to much lower community engagement. An interesting profile and good reviews, combined with community instruction on how to compose a good request, leads to acceptance of couch requests. The system works as long as the community polices itself, teaches its values to new members, and encourages good behavior.
The community forums were a huge part of facilitating all that. Profiles would often include instructions on how to behave, but the forums filled the gaps by adding social pressure to enforce standard conventions. They also ensured there was constant user engagement and content, which we know from modern social media sites is imperative for a vibrant community.
All of that got flushed down the drain when Couchsurfing reorganized and annihilated their old site. All the community engagement fled to private Facebook groups. That caused profile quality to crash, and the result is anti-community behavior, like how the majority of single men on the platform now host only single women, which besides being sketch as hell, just makes it harder to find a reliable host.
After I literally flew across the country just to have lunch with the Couchsurfing team and discuss the community problems I'd collected, I got the impression that they were not going to change. My concerns were mostly considered bug reports, and the problems that drove the community away were never addressed. Years later, it looks like no work has been done at all.
I was grandfathered in as an older user so I never even realized they started charged you to send more than a certain number of couch requests. But why would any new user seriously commit to a community now? It can probably still be a place to meet amazing people, but you can also just meet amazing people anywhere you go in the world, without Couchsurfing.
The saddest part of all of this is that now there won't be an amazing platform to show people how insanely generous humans are all over the world. Hopefully BeWelcome or another site can pick up the mantle and restore the old ways, so we can go back to showing more people the inherent goodness of strangers - when those strangers are tied together via community and purpose.
So, back before the ubiquity of 2 or 3 social media sites, CouchSurfing was a quirky place to meet travelers and let them crash on your couch. One of the things that made it work was profile reviews and couch requests. The second thing was the community forums.
The profile reviews and couch requests acted as a quality filter. Bad reviews lead to much lower community engagement. An interesting profile and good reviews, combined with community instruction on how to compose a good request, leads to acceptance of couch requests. The system works as long as the community polices itself, teaches its values to new members, and encourages good behavior.
The community forums were a huge part of facilitating all that. Profiles would often include instructions on how to behave, but the forums filled the gaps by adding social pressure to enforce standard conventions. They also ensured there was constant user engagement and content, which we know from modern social media sites is imperative for a vibrant community.
All of that got flushed down the drain when Couchsurfing reorganized and annihilated their old site. All the community engagement fled to private Facebook groups. That caused profile quality to crash, and the result is anti-community behavior, like how the majority of single men on the platform now host only single women, which besides being sketch as hell, just makes it harder to find a reliable host.
After I literally flew across the country just to have lunch with the Couchsurfing team and discuss the community problems I'd collected, I got the impression that they were not going to change. My concerns were mostly considered bug reports, and the problems that drove the community away were never addressed. Years later, it looks like no work has been done at all.
I was grandfathered in as an older user so I never even realized they started charged you to send more than a certain number of couch requests. But why would any new user seriously commit to a community now? It can probably still be a place to meet amazing people, but you can also just meet amazing people anywhere you go in the world, without Couchsurfing.
The saddest part of all of this is that now there won't be an amazing platform to show people how insanely generous humans are all over the world. Hopefully BeWelcome or another site can pick up the mantle and restore the old ways, so we can go back to showing more people the inherent goodness of strangers - when those strangers are tied together via community and purpose.
Couch surfing is not dead. In the adventure motorcycling community, there are this concept "tent spaces". It is like crowd surfing but instead of a couch, you get access to a toilet and space to pitch a tent.
https://advrider.com/f/threads/tent-space-map-v2.1215147/
https://advrider.com/f/threads/tent-space-map-v2.1215147/
Warm Showers is also pretty good. It's mostly Europe focused cycling community, where you meet amazing cyclists with a decent garage and a night full of stories.
Idk if you read the article but this is mostly about the couchsurfing website not the concept. They specify that even if the website is dead couchsurfing as an idea will move on in the article too.
More reason to move towards a free and open source decentralized web. Otherwise a beautiful community over a decade in the making can be obliterated by the flick of a switch of a couple money-hungry idiots wearing suits.
I feel like the biggest money drain for any community website is not server or development fees, its moderation and community management. You cant just stick up a php app on a vps and let it run forever for $3/month. You have to hire people to remove spam and to read user reports to remove rapists and creeps from the platform.
Hell just plain ole support. I got locked out of my Couchsurfing account twice and getting in was a pain.
I also dispute the "get a VPS and ship it" for 3/month -- there are a lot of images on Couchsurfing, and a userbase that's non-trivial in terms of size.
I also dispute the "get a VPS and ship it" for 3/month -- there are a lot of images on Couchsurfing, and a userbase that's non-trivial in terms of size.
Yes!
https://qbix.com/platform
It’s here use it
https://qbix.com/platform
It’s here use it
So sad to see this aggressive shift. I have made many good friends from Couchsurfing, and I was paying the annually fee both to support the site and to be "Verified by CouchSurfing". Even though on March they received my annually payment, today after reading this article I tried to login to CS after some months, only to find out I had to pay _again_ to even access my profile. I could not see my photos, references, messages, nothing.
I'm really disappointed and sad, and I guess I'm also switching to BeWelcome.
I'm really disappointed and sad, and I guess I'm also switching to BeWelcome.
Have a look at Trustroots, the management of the project is quite different and doesn't put the same emphasis on formal democratic processes as BeWelcome does, but it makes for a community that's closer to what seems to me the authentic couchsurfing spirit. All of these hospex networks brought me a lot anyway.
Thanks for the link abyssin, indeed seems very interesting.
Btw, I tried accessing my profile from Wayback Machine and got a nice "This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine". Really Couchsurfing?
Also, I forgot to mention that the message you get when you login to couchsurfing.com is a landing page that says: "Due to the impact of Covid-19, we need your immediate help to keep Couchsurfing alive" and then the only options you have are: 1. Pay with Credit Card 2. Pay with PayPal 3. Logout (https://imgur.com/g7QKHEt)
Their site totally looks like ransomware.
Also, I forgot to mention that the message you get when you login to couchsurfing.com is a landing page that says: "Due to the impact of Covid-19, we need your immediate help to keep Couchsurfing alive" and then the only options you have are: 1. Pay with Credit Card 2. Pay with PayPal 3. Logout (https://imgur.com/g7QKHEt)
Their site totally looks like ransomware.
I'm one of the Trustroots contributors, you're right about the governance topic, we have a do-ocracy approach right now (described a bit at the bottom of https://www.trustroots.org/faq/foundation). I'm actually keen to evolve this, with a more specific approach to community-governance, but this thinking and these talks take time.
I'm perfectly happy with the current style of governance. It seems like it works, while BeWelcome is still struggling with endless babbling.
I just tried to search for my city on BeWelcome to check it out. When I search from the landing page, I get a CSRF token error. When I then try to search again from the search page, I get a 404 /search/map not found. It seems they still have some way to go..
3 days later it's still the same
I've had nothing but amazing experiences with CouchSurfing.
New Years Party in Budapest;
A haunted house trip in Philadelphia turned into being a pretend boyfriend for a girl in Ürümqi and a week later flying to Maldives with her best friend;
Playing ice hockey with the President of Finland;
Having a fling with a famous Japanese MMA Fighter;
I even started my website www.uncivil.engineer because of it; sad to see.
New Years Party in Budapest;
A haunted house trip in Philadelphia turned into being a pretend boyfriend for a girl in Ürümqi and a week later flying to Maldives with her best friend;
Playing ice hockey with the President of Finland;
Having a fling with a famous Japanese MMA Fighter;
I even started my website www.uncivil.engineer because of it; sad to see.
Why does couchsurfing.com need to be a $22.5m venture backed business?
Not everything needs to be the next WeWork.
Not everything needs to be the next WeWork.
An alternative will rise eventually. Couch surfing is all about experiences, friendships, and not thinking about money. Any person creating the alternative will have to understand and accept that.
It will have to come from the community then. A community has no inherent right to a service - or to the time and effort of the people who build and maintain it.
So maybe alternative won't arise - because spending hours building a product and paying to host it for people who can't or won't pay is a hard sell.
So maybe alternative won't arise - because spending hours building a product and paying to host it for people who can't or won't pay is a hard sell.
BeWelcome is open-source, has been around for a decade already, and has excellent financial transparency. Their fundraising target for this year is 1300€.
I've already contacted their developer to ask if I can help create a data import tool so people can easily transfer their C$ profiles.
It's heartbreaking to see such a wonderful community be divided like this. There are no "rich" and "poor" countries, only ones with more inequality. Ideally I wish that the HQ would change their mind, but my support is now behind BeWelcome as the alternative.
We must work together and stay united as a community. Travel will continue, despite government lockdowns. Contact tracing is much easier with hospex sites like BeWelcome than with 11 strangers in a hostel room. Economic troubles will lead people to cheaper alternatives. Even if C$ has been ruined by venture capitalists, giving freely and paying it forward will live on elsewhere.
In case this message reaches the C$ investors in Silicon Valley, I don't hate you personally, and I wish that internal reform is possible so that we don't all have to flee to a new platform. But the new change, brought without consultation, is contrary to the principles that CS was founded on. CS is not Airbnb, nor is it a dating site, nor is it exclusive. Selling personal data and private messages didn't bother me too much - Facebook does the same. But trying to charge a monthly subscription from people who don't even have stable countries, never mind bank accounts, is totally ignorant. Change your mind, quickly, because the community is already one foot out of the door.
I've already contacted their developer to ask if I can help create a data import tool so people can easily transfer their C$ profiles.
It's heartbreaking to see such a wonderful community be divided like this. There are no "rich" and "poor" countries, only ones with more inequality. Ideally I wish that the HQ would change their mind, but my support is now behind BeWelcome as the alternative.
We must work together and stay united as a community. Travel will continue, despite government lockdowns. Contact tracing is much easier with hospex sites like BeWelcome than with 11 strangers in a hostel room. Economic troubles will lead people to cheaper alternatives. Even if C$ has been ruined by venture capitalists, giving freely and paying it forward will live on elsewhere.
In case this message reaches the C$ investors in Silicon Valley, I don't hate you personally, and I wish that internal reform is possible so that we don't all have to flee to a new platform. But the new change, brought without consultation, is contrary to the principles that CS was founded on. CS is not Airbnb, nor is it a dating site, nor is it exclusive. Selling personal data and private messages didn't bother me too much - Facebook does the same. But trying to charge a monthly subscription from people who don't even have stable countries, never mind bank accounts, is totally ignorant. Change your mind, quickly, because the community is already one foot out of the door.
I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I think CS was forced into a 'for-profit' designation for practical reasons:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9633122
... and it doesn't really represent the operation. At the end of the day, moderation and support for membership is needed, particularly for keeping predators out of the system, mechanisms for people who might have fallen prey to them. It is something that requires time and effort. Such operations need guaranteed vigilance on these issues, and aren't easily sustained by the whims of volunteer involvement.
It might be that many established members are okay with taking risks. I remember one host I stayed with that talked about hitch-hiking on trucks around Europe to save money, but also how she got drugged once and her money stolen and dumped in the middle of an autobahn, and then another time how she 'talked herself out of' being raped. This sort of risk might be okay for the seasoned couchsurfer, but this might not sit well for newcomers who don't know who they are staying with.
Not sure if the situation has changed with CS, and they've become profit-oriented, but it does take some money, from somewhere, to keep things to modern standards. Personally, I would prefer that CS was sustained by those who can afford to by donations, rather than subscription. And I may actually look to bewelcome, or hospitality club if that's still around. (I also used another called 'Trustroots', not sure if that still has a community.)
Edit: To that individual with the privilege to down-vote, could you please correct me where I'm wrong with an actual comment?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9633122
... and it doesn't really represent the operation. At the end of the day, moderation and support for membership is needed, particularly for keeping predators out of the system, mechanisms for people who might have fallen prey to them. It is something that requires time and effort. Such operations need guaranteed vigilance on these issues, and aren't easily sustained by the whims of volunteer involvement.
It might be that many established members are okay with taking risks. I remember one host I stayed with that talked about hitch-hiking on trucks around Europe to save money, but also how she got drugged once and her money stolen and dumped in the middle of an autobahn, and then another time how she 'talked herself out of' being raped. This sort of risk might be okay for the seasoned couchsurfer, but this might not sit well for newcomers who don't know who they are staying with.
Not sure if the situation has changed with CS, and they've become profit-oriented, but it does take some money, from somewhere, to keep things to modern standards. Personally, I would prefer that CS was sustained by those who can afford to by donations, rather than subscription. And I may actually look to bewelcome, or hospitality club if that's still around. (I also used another called 'Trustroots', not sure if that still has a community.)
Edit: To that individual with the privilege to down-vote, could you please correct me where I'm wrong with an actual comment?
Trustroots is being discussed as an alternative, but it doesn't have a reference system. I trust the reference system to keep the platform clear from the safety issues you describe. That's why I think BeWelcome is the best alternative to recommend right now.
Servers cost money, and BeWelcome are transparent about that. Having developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive if paid by the hour, but there are willing volunteers. Asking for donations is acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is not.
Please come over to the BeWelcome forums; I'd like to discuss the possibilities of starting new meetups, and selling merch (t-shirts, hoodies, stickers) to improve the BeWelcome brand so it can bring together the community, lest we scatter. Any financial donation like that should be discussed democratically though, so that's why your input is needed.
(I didn't downvote, I think your comment is fair)
Servers cost money, and BeWelcome are transparent about that. Having developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive if paid by the hour, but there are willing volunteers. Asking for donations is acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is not.
Please come over to the BeWelcome forums; I'd like to discuss the possibilities of starting new meetups, and selling merch (t-shirts, hoodies, stickers) to improve the BeWelcome brand so it can bring together the community, lest we scatter. Any financial donation like that should be discussed democratically though, so that's why your input is needed.
(I didn't downvote, I think your comment is fair)
> Trustroots is being discussed as an alternative, but it doesn't have a reference system
I logged in just earlier to have a look, and I see that people do have feedback. I'm not sure if there's anything like 'vouching' that CS used to have.
> Having developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive if paid by the hour, but there are willing volunteers.
I have been to a festival in Australia (the predecessor to burning man) that is completely volunteer run. It's interesting to be a part of operations and see it work, and fail to some extent, and in meat-space the 'look after each other philosophy' can work when everybody is can watch each other.
I'm not sure how that could translate to a platform that has private messaging. I believe CS had a mechanism where communications could be inspected if a complaint was raised.
> Asking for donations is acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is not.
I think you're right about this. The people who I enjoyed the most with CS would probably find this offensive, so I'd be more likely to participate in a platform that was donation-based.
My only hesitation is that I lose all my references.
> so that's why your input is needed.
I'll make an effort.
I logged in just earlier to have a look, and I see that people do have feedback. I'm not sure if there's anything like 'vouching' that CS used to have.
> Having developers to code the site and moderate the forum would be expensive if paid by the hour, but there are willing volunteers.
I have been to a festival in Australia (the predecessor to burning man) that is completely volunteer run. It's interesting to be a part of operations and see it work, and fail to some extent, and in meat-space the 'look after each other philosophy' can work when everybody is can watch each other.
I'm not sure how that could translate to a platform that has private messaging. I believe CS had a mechanism where communications could be inspected if a complaint was raised.
> Asking for donations is acceptable, a paywall demanding a subscription is not.
I think you're right about this. The people who I enjoyed the most with CS would probably find this offensive, so I'd be more likely to participate in a platform that was donation-based.
My only hesitation is that I lose all my references.
> so that's why your input is needed.
I'll make an effort.
> I have been to a festival in Australia (the predecessor to burning man) that is completely volunteer run. It's interesting to be a part of operations and see it work, and fail to some extent, and in meat-space the 'look after each other philosophy' can work when everybody is can watch each other.
I'm curious about that (being an Australian and a Burner).
Which festival? (if you're OK sharing. My email in my profile works if you're OK sharing but not as widely as publishing it here...)
I'm curious about that (being an Australian and a Burner).
Which festival? (if you're OK sharing. My email in my profile works if you're OK sharing but not as widely as publishing it here...)
Surely you've heard of ConFest? Still going strong since the 70s. Started by Jim Cairns (the then ex-deputy to the ex-prime minister Gough Whitlam). The name is a portmanteau of 'conference festival'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConFest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConFest
> I just hadn't ever heard it referred to as "the predecessor to burning man".
But that it is :) It was a direct inspiration for burning man, and also another long running festival in Europe (the name escapes me).
> (And I've never been, Easter is BluesFest time for me...)
Are you talking about the one in Denniliquin that often coincides with ConFest? It's a very short drive away, and I recall bumping into a few curious folks making a detour after BluesFest.
But that it is :) It was a direct inspiration for burning man, and also another long running festival in Europe (the name escapes me).
> (And I've never been, Easter is BluesFest time for me...)
Are you talking about the one in Denniliquin that often coincides with ConFest? It's a very short drive away, and I recall bumping into a few curious folks making a detour after BluesFest.
Nah, Bluesfest in Byron Bay...
Ahhh, right. I just hadn't ever heard it referred to as "the predecessor to burning man".
(And I've never been, Easter is BluesFest time for me...)
(And I've never been, Easter is BluesFest time for me...)
Thank you for putting real effort into solving a problem you see in the world.
> There are no "rich" and "poor" countries, only ones with more inequality.
This is true only in the same way that there are no tall and short people, only taller and shorter people. Most of the population of the DRC lives worse lives than the bottom 1% of the US population in terms of material consumption. The US is rich. The DRC is poor.
> There are no "rich" and "poor" countries, only ones with more inequality.
This is true only in the same way that there are no tall and short people, only taller and shorter people. Most of the population of the DRC lives worse lives than the bottom 1% of the US population in terms of material consumption. The US is rich. The DRC is poor.
> create a data import tool so people can easily transfer their C$ profiles.
This has been brought up in the past (there have been multiple waves of disgruntled CS members leaving for BW), but it is pretty clear that CS would consider this web scraping that violates their terms of service. CS does not provide any authorized way to export its profiles.
EDIT: Sorry, I'm wrong. I left CS and chose to use only community-driven hospitality-exchange platforms pre-GDPR.
This has been brought up in the past (there have been multiple waves of disgruntled CS members leaving for BW), but it is pretty clear that CS would consider this web scraping that violates their terms of service. CS does not provide any authorized way to export its profiles.
EDIT: Sorry, I'm wrong. I left CS and chose to use only community-driven hospitality-exchange platforms pre-GDPR.
Sounds like that runs afoul of GDPR.
There is a data export tool, as a result of GDPR.
https://www.couchsurfing.com/preferences/privacy
However, there's no data import tool yet, and that's what I'd like to build.
https://www.couchsurfing.com/preferences/privacy
However, there's no data import tool yet, and that's what I'd like to build.
I'll second that. Theft seems to happen as a matter of course in hostels, with just about everyone I know who uses them regularly having an experience. I don't hear too many bad CS stories except the friend of a friend who had to stay with a nudist (i.e. urban myth. The nudists on CS seem to be very open about it.)
I'm trying to migrate to BeWelcome, but I really miss the hangout feature. Any other alternatives?
Man that's a bad way to do it, and it makes me really sad. Couchsurfing has been awesome but this is probably good for the community long-term since the motives of a large part of the users and CS where wildly misaligned after becoming a for-profit corp. With the nail in the coffin hopefully this will lead to a migration to some platform run by the community itself. Trustroots seems like the best existing option right now for future development.
Trustroots has a nice map-based interface, but lacks references and meetups. BeWelcome is my preferred option, and is open-source and has excellent financial transparency.
I'm one of the developers working on Trustroots.
We're working on references :) I merged this PR yesterday https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1413, there is a bit more to work out for displaying them...
There is also a meetup feature already (see https://ideas.trustroots.org/2017/08/21/meeting-people-now-o...), it's a bit primitive right now, but it was a first iteration, and we've been discussing some next steps recently.
We are also open source! https://github.com/trustroots/ (with a node + react stack)
We're working on references :) I merged this PR yesterday https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1413, there is a bit more to work out for displaying them...
There is also a meetup feature already (see https://ideas.trustroots.org/2017/08/21/meeting-people-now-o...), it's a bit primitive right now, but it was a first iteration, and we've been discussing some next steps recently.
We are also open source! https://github.com/trustroots/ (with a node + react stack)
It's possible to export my data from CS. Would the Trustroots community be willing to have a CS data import option, for bringing in old CS references and friends?
You're welcome to join our team chat and we can discuss further (send me an email, address in profile, then I can invite you).
(most relevant, but dated, PR is https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1086)
(I also saw your comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23219900)
(most relevant, but dated, PR is https://github.com/Trustroots/trustroots/pull/1086)
(I also saw your comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23219900)
> We are also open source!
This is a big deal actually. From what I've heard, One of the reasons why Hospitality Club fell into decline, was that the code-base was closed source and the original developer was reluctant to let go of it.
This is a big deal actually. From what I've heard, One of the reasons why Hospitality Club fell into decline, was that the code-base was closed source and the original developer was reluctant to let go of it.
The open source bit allows the ultimate step of forking the whole project, and that is important to me to be able to do that, but it's not a trivial step at all, and a lot of the usefulness is in the name recognition and the userbase.
But really, I want to contribute to the original project, and given I am not the original developer, it still relies on the them (and any other founders) to open up contributions. Fortunately, in this case, they have :)
But really, I want to contribute to the original project, and given I am not the original developer, it still relies on the them (and any other founders) to open up contributions. Fortunately, in this case, they have :)
Whats the size of the current userbase and how many off your users are active?
I ended up with two meth heads who sort of moved in and would not leave, they even tried to get me arrested for trespassing in my own home, supposedly on grounds of they were US citizens and I was not. Fortunately the cop that showed up spoke Italian and we sorted it out. It was weird. On the other hand, I have made three lifelong friends thanks to hospitality, so the balance is positive.
It's about €2 a month, and I subscribed yesterday. It didn't occur to me until they prompted that CS must be doing pretty bad during the pandemic. I still open for Hangouts (I'm "stranded" in Vietnam where things are open back now), and the CS as a platform was fantastic to meet new people.
I think the €2 price is only for those who live in relatively richer countries. Here in Vietnam, my friends were not asked to pay, it's just me because my address was set to the Netherlands.
They even support PayPal payments, which I believe take ~€0.30 for the payment.
I think the €2 price is only for those who live in relatively richer countries. Here in Vietnam, my friends were not asked to pay, it's just me because my address was set to the Netherlands.
They even support PayPal payments, which I believe take ~€0.30 for the payment.
This is interesting, so it's based on address? I am also a Hangouts user and never did actual 'couchsurfing' so seeing it disappear esp. in countries like Vietnam or Thailand is a sad thought. Still, having this paywall slapped on for the majority of users means that a lot of 'casual users' like me who open the app occassionally will fall away, which then means far less people available on Hangouts.
Maybe someone else will step in and build a Hangout clone? Their app is a massive battery hog full of bugs, and I dread opening it every time I get a new message.
Maybe someone else will step in and build a Hangout clone? Their app is a massive battery hog full of bugs, and I dread opening it every time I get a new message.
I think Couch Surfing (the activity) + hangouts work well because you can see how "cool" a person is based on their travel history.
Well, I'm in Romania and I got the paywall, so it looks like we qualify as rich enough.
Like the article says and as applies to almost all failed startups / products, it can all be traced back to bad management.
I've been a heavy CS user for over a decade, I've been to events at their (now defunct I suppose) office in SF, I met their CEO at the time (one of many) and even did a walk around the block chatting strategy with their VP of Product at the time.
After building lifelong relationships through the platform, and comparing my experience as a user with management's side of the story, it was clear to me that they had very little understanding of their userbase.
Couchsurfers are broke. By definition. Meeting people is a huge value add, and the longer you stay on the platform, the more you gravitate toward the "community spirit" and less "saving money" side of things. But you are kidding yourself if you think that first time CS users are on the platform for any other reason than squeezing a few more days out of a thin backpacking budget.
Not only are they broke, but even the community often has an anti-money ethos. Just look at the outrage (as the article points out) when they switched to a B corporation. And it makes sense -- taking an inherently capitalist product (lodging) and building a community to make it free creates a very specific narrative.
Therefore, the expectation that CS users, especially first-time, will pay even a dollar on the service is DOA. They need to make money (exactly how much is up for debate), but this isn't the way to do it.
But that doesn't mean there aren't any other choices! CS Event sponsorships, cross-product integration (language learning, travel deals FFS), other corporate sponsorships, a more Airbnb-like private experience (maybe the community would hate that too, who knows), partnerships with local tourism authorities, discounted tour / event packages... None of these were even close to tried.
I'm not at all advocating that Couchsurfing should have become Tripadvisor, but to barely even consider a few alternatives to nickel and diming a bunch of broke backpackers just shows that CS was on its way out long before COVID-19...
I've been a heavy CS user for over a decade, I've been to events at their (now defunct I suppose) office in SF, I met their CEO at the time (one of many) and even did a walk around the block chatting strategy with their VP of Product at the time.
After building lifelong relationships through the platform, and comparing my experience as a user with management's side of the story, it was clear to me that they had very little understanding of their userbase.
Couchsurfers are broke. By definition. Meeting people is a huge value add, and the longer you stay on the platform, the more you gravitate toward the "community spirit" and less "saving money" side of things. But you are kidding yourself if you think that first time CS users are on the platform for any other reason than squeezing a few more days out of a thin backpacking budget.
Not only are they broke, but even the community often has an anti-money ethos. Just look at the outrage (as the article points out) when they switched to a B corporation. And it makes sense -- taking an inherently capitalist product (lodging) and building a community to make it free creates a very specific narrative.
Therefore, the expectation that CS users, especially first-time, will pay even a dollar on the service is DOA. They need to make money (exactly how much is up for debate), but this isn't the way to do it.
But that doesn't mean there aren't any other choices! CS Event sponsorships, cross-product integration (language learning, travel deals FFS), other corporate sponsorships, a more Airbnb-like private experience (maybe the community would hate that too, who knows), partnerships with local tourism authorities, discounted tour / event packages... None of these were even close to tried.
I'm not at all advocating that Couchsurfing should have become Tripadvisor, but to barely even consider a few alternatives to nickel and diming a bunch of broke backpackers just shows that CS was on its way out long before COVID-19...
It’s also possible that if the premise of your product is being free for broke people, there’s just no path to profitability or even subsistance. You always anger your base, whatever you do. And then your platform becomes irrelevant as it fails to adapt due to... lack of money.
I joined CS when I was broke, and such a site must stay free for newcomers.
Music can be obtained for free (whether recorded onto a cassette tape off MTV or downloaded). Despite that, I go out of my way to support my favourite bands. Sometimes quite literally flying to other countries to go to concerts. Now I have the money, I want to support those who showed kindness in the past by paying it forward.
BeWelcome's financial transparency is excellent, and I would happily buy a t-shirt from them, and I'm discussing with organisers of CS weekly meetups whether they'd be willing to rebrand to BW. If CS wants to save their platform, they can and should, but must act quickly.
Music can be obtained for free (whether recorded onto a cassette tape off MTV or downloaded). Despite that, I go out of my way to support my favourite bands. Sometimes quite literally flying to other countries to go to concerts. Now I have the money, I want to support those who showed kindness in the past by paying it forward.
BeWelcome's financial transparency is excellent, and I would happily buy a t-shirt from them, and I'm discussing with organisers of CS weekly meetups whether they'd be willing to rebrand to BW. If CS wants to save their platform, they can and should, but must act quickly.
I beg to differ. Travellers need travel insurance. They might need a ho(s)tel if other options aren't there. They could enjoy TransferWise and borderless bank accounts.
You can give away the product and monetize related needs. This is how I did it with my website, where I can still afford to give away all my knowledge. You focus on your core product, but still make affiliate income from pointing them to other things they need.
You can give away the product and monetize related needs. This is how I did it with my website, where I can still afford to give away all my knowledge. You focus on your core product, but still make affiliate income from pointing them to other things they need.
I’ve met quite some surfers who are definitely not broke.
That’s like saying people who go to burning man are broke
An aside: Why does Medium add a login wall to some articles? Creating an account on a website to read somebody's blog post to me sounds... excessive.
We’ve been considering moving our labs‘ blog there (because less maintenance, higher visibility in tech academic communities) and have been wondering about this too. Can someone comment? Are they aiming towards raising a login wall for the whole platform?
You can make all your articles free/unpaywalled if you want. But then if a publication wants to add your article, they can’t. Only paywalled articles can be added to publications.
I love CS! I have made tons of best friends, both male and female from around the world. I hosted a lot (max of upto 20 ppl one night in Mysore India!) and surfed a bit on my travels and best is when you get hosted by your ex surfers!!
Monetizing couch surfing and providing the option of Joining via Facebook screwed up couch surfing according to me- the philosophy was lost. Earlier it was about travel, culture/ lifestyle experiencing platform, and had a word-of-mouth/kind of exclusive feel to it - you'd meet genuine people who took the effort to research online and find this forum. It was more genuine and with no expectations. I was very private about couch surfing, never posted stuff about it on my normal social media sites and never wanted to be famous for it. Soon after the Facebook link and those paid for profiles (green tick mark!! Ughh) all sorts of people ended up joining CS. In many countries, ppl are not aware of sensibilities and especially in a country like India, where women are stared at (even by my own friends! ) I had to keep a low profile. It was so so so hard to patiently educate friends, neighbours and family about basic concepts of travel, backpacking, alternative lifestyles.... Once Facebook got included, people found out and it became like a platform for users to brag about the girl they hosted and show off!! Yuck... BTW, I am an Indian guy telling you about hosting all the chillest open minded ppl in a small indian town! So trust me, it got BAD once non genuine ppl found out about CS! It's become commercial, about getting laid, and mostly all the cool vibe ppl are harder to filter through among the zillions of morons. It's become harder to connect now.
I hope couch surfing survives, maybe make some whole sale changes.
Stay safe everyone. Have a good time! ~*~
Stay safe everyone. Have a good time! ~*~
I love CS! I have made tons of best friends, both male and female from around the world. I hosted a lot (max of upto 20 ppl one night in Mysore India!) and surfed a bit on my travels and best is when you get hosted by your ex surfers!!
Monetizing couch surfing and providing the option of Joining via Facebook screwed up couch surfing according to me- the philosophy was lost. Earlier it was about travel, culture/ lifestyle experiencing platform, and had a word-of-mouth/kind of exclusive feel to it - you'd meet genuine people who took the effort to research online and find this forum. It was more genuine and with no expectations. I was very private about couch surfing, never posted stuff about it on my normal social media sites and never wanted to be famous for it. Soon after the Facebook link and those paid for profiles (green tick mark!! Ughh) all sorts of people ended up joining CS. In many countries, ppl are not aware of sensibilities and especially in a country like India, where women are stared at (even by my own friends! ) I had to keep a low profile. It was so so so hard to patiently educate friends, neighbours and family about basic concepts of travel, backpacking, alternative lifestyles.... Once Facebook got included, people found out and it became like a platform for users to brag about the girl they hosted and show off!! Yuck... BTW, I am an Indian guy telling you about hosting all the chillest open minded ppl in a small indian town! So trust me, it got BAD once non genuine ppl found out about CS! It's become commercial, about getting laid, and mostly all the cool vibe ppl are harder to filter through among the zillions of morons. It's become harder to connect now.
I hope couch surfing survives, maybe make some whole sale changes.
https://archive.fo/6xEPW
The article makes this sound super shitty. What happens if you were traveling on May 14th in a country where you don't have cellphone service, trusting that you're going to use CouchSurfing to message your hosts to arrange to meet up when you arrive, and now you can't contact them any more? Either it's cough up the US$15 (assuming you even have a means of payment CouchSurfing accepts — I don't think they do M-PESA) or you're sleeping on the side of the road where your hitchhiking ride dropped you off. And US$15 is a fucking lot of money in some places.
I've hosted a bunch of people via Couchsurfing and also been hosted. Another alternative I've used is hospitalityclub.org, which seems to still be up. The article and other comments here mention BeWelcome, but I haven't tried it.
While I agree with comments that it shouldn't require hundreds of millions of dollars a year to run the site, and that we need to move community services like this onto decentralized systems, I think things like the Beaker Browser are not yet widespread enough. Communities like CouchSurfing where lots of people meet up in person and try new things might be the most fertile soil for something like that.
The article makes this sound super shitty. What happens if you were traveling on May 14th in a country where you don't have cellphone service, trusting that you're going to use CouchSurfing to message your hosts to arrange to meet up when you arrive, and now you can't contact them any more? Either it's cough up the US$15 (assuming you even have a means of payment CouchSurfing accepts — I don't think they do M-PESA) or you're sleeping on the side of the road where your hitchhiking ride dropped you off. And US$15 is a fucking lot of money in some places.
I've hosted a bunch of people via Couchsurfing and also been hosted. Another alternative I've used is hospitalityclub.org, which seems to still be up. The article and other comments here mention BeWelcome, but I haven't tried it.
While I agree with comments that it shouldn't require hundreds of millions of dollars a year to run the site, and that we need to move community services like this onto decentralized systems, I think things like the Beaker Browser are not yet widespread enough. Communities like CouchSurfing where lots of people meet up in person and try new things might be the most fertile soil for something like that.
Bro.. you gotta pay $15 a year. That's $1.25/month.
I would like to see you make a website like Couchsurfing that can operate for free forever.
Just pay the $buck 25 and keep using the site and go on with your life. This is not a Capitalist Conspiracy to rob you of your hard-earned $dollars
I would like to see you make a website like Couchsurfing that can operate for free forever.
Just pay the $buck 25 and keep using the site and go on with your life. This is not a Capitalist Conspiracy to rob you of your hard-earned $dollars
This is addressed in the article:
> In contrast, BeWelcome, a similar but much less popular platform, covered their finances with less than $10,000.
The costs of running such a platform are not high. And Couchsurfing operated for free for at least a decade: they relied on donations and volunteer work.
In the end, some of the founding volunteers decided to sell out the Couchsurfing code and community to investors. These investors want their money back. Of course Couchsurfing now has paid staff, but it's not required for operating the website: it's required for userbase growth. And neither the new user fee is about the operating costs: it's about investors getting their money back.
> In contrast, BeWelcome, a similar but much less popular platform, covered their finances with less than $10,000.
The costs of running such a platform are not high. And Couchsurfing operated for free for at least a decade: they relied on donations and volunteer work.
In the end, some of the founding volunteers decided to sell out the Couchsurfing code and community to investors. These investors want their money back. Of course Couchsurfing now has paid staff, but it's not required for operating the website: it's required for userbase growth. And neither the new user fee is about the operating costs: it's about investors getting their money back.
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/s?
I almost wonder if you've ever met anyone in need. This brand of smug entitlement preceeds revolutions ...bro.
I almost wonder if you've ever met anyone in need. This brand of smug entitlement preceeds revolutions ...bro.
If you are in need why on earth are you couchsurfing and traveling at all? If you cant afford $15 for the site what happens when you get sick or any emergency whatsoever forces you to shell out money?
Maybe a relative gets sick in a foreign country and you'd like to see them? Maybe you can't afford health care and you just get sick and die if you're in a first world democracy with American-class health care, or if you're in a civilized country, maybe they just treat you? I don't know, man, use your imagination.
In America hospitals and emergency rooms are required to treat you.
Then you are not "forced to shell out money" in such a case, yes?
It’s like any debt collection negotiation.
My brother had a $10,000 surgery. He works a minimum wage job so they tried to get him to agree to a payment plan. He didn’t think he could afford that, so offered $2500 as full repayment and they accepted.
My brother had a $10,000 surgery. He works a minimum wage job so they tried to get him to agree to a payment plan. He didn’t think he could afford that, so offered $2500 as full repayment and they accepted.
Nope, stop right now. Anyone in America can come up with $25 of disposable income a year.
Therefore, by induction, infinite subscription services at $25/year can find customers! Convenient for pitching to VCs no doubt, and how fortunate for us that no-one ever wants to travel to America from anywhere else, because that would be unthinkable.
There is a world outside USA also ;)
And you don't need money to travel.
And you don't need money to travel.
You don't need money to travel beyond your front door/neighbourhood but come on, you need "some" money to travel. You can't travel without a penny in your pocket.
You can do pretty well with next to nothing. I spent three months hitchhiking and couchsurfing my way through the US and Canada, covering roughly 20,000 miles and staying with dozens of hosts. I started with $700 in my account, and still had a few hundred left by the end of the trip. Had I wanted to be more frugal, and not get 'local food' when someone suggested something especially good, I probably could have gotten by with less.
So it's true that you need something....but you can do it with little enough that $25 can be a significant part of your budget.
So it's true that you need something....but you can do it with little enough that $25 can be a significant part of your budget.
You can. On expense of other people good will. And give them something in exchange. Good company, manual labor, songs, whatever. Of course we need to agree on definition of "travel" first ;)
And it doesn't really seem exactly dispensable if you are using it for housing
My friends traveled half of the world thanks to CS. In developing counties it's usually richest people that host, so it's sometimes better than hotel, but often just tent in backyard (I think when no "hosts" in area)
...and do not forget about Pasporta Servo, which is a clear predecessor. The "pitch" for Couchsurfing may as well be "like Pasporta Servo, but without Esperanto".
Exactly!
To explain Pasporta Servo to a friend (when I was "preaching" about Esperanto), I said the opposite:
"It's Couchsurfing, but within the Esperanto community" – and also mentioned it being older than CS.
For hosts that provide their guests with a bed: Are bed-bugs a concern?
I can imagine bad hosting varied travellers who themselves may be sleeping in many different beds would be terrible for it.
I can imagine bad hosting varied travellers who themselves may be sleeping in many different beds would be terrible for it.
This was literally the answer I expected when I saw the title.
* also, this should have read "bed-hosting"
I'm very saddened by the news.
To me couchsurfing was not only about hosting people to my place (which I hope I can continue doing after the pandemic) but also about their events.
The weeks I couldn't or didn't feel like hosting strangers to my place, I could still meet random foreigners in bars or outside.
My city had 3 weekly events in addition to random theme events, from board game nights and sport activities to cooking classes.
To me couchsurfing was not only about hosting people to my place (which I hope I can continue doing after the pandemic) but also about their events.
The weeks I couldn't or didn't feel like hosting strangers to my place, I could still meet random foreigners in bars or outside.
My city had 3 weekly events in addition to random theme events, from board game nights and sport activities to cooking classes.
I've had great experiences from couchsurfing. Hosting, surfing, and events. I've met several close friends through couchsurfing.
I've heard about the negative experiences people have had, but never from direct source, always someone heard about someone. I have no clue about the actual numbers.
The community died off with the mismanagement, but also shrunk from the rise of airbnb and meetup.
I've heard about the negative experiences people have had, but never from direct source, always someone heard about someone. I have no clue about the actual numbers.
The community died off with the mismanagement, but also shrunk from the rise of airbnb and meetup.
Wonder how they survived for such a long time. I used to use it when I was a young adult with no family and little money, and stopped using it once I was not young any more, and had something to pay. My impression of my guests and hosts was that they were about the same kind of people as I was, so I'm not sure where they could ever get money from.
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I used to host couch surfers in Denver. Everyone I met was amazing. Had a couple from Jamaica stay a few days and taught me how to cook jerk chicken. Then I hosted a group of 5 from Australia which put me up when I visited them. I hope something replaces this site.
There's already alternatives, and they've been there for a while. The first treason to the community came from Casy Fenton who sold Couchsurfing some 10 years ago, even though he'd benefited from the volunteer work of many skilled members. That triggered the creation of BeWelcome. Some years later, BeWelcome was perceived as suffering from different issues that were preventing it from growing to its potential, and Trustroots was founded as well. Trustroots is a promising project.
Couchsurfing died a long time ago. It used to be a good website until I guess it got sold.
I understand the need for monetization since it's a large community and running it will have some costs but it's weird they couldn't partner with some travel equipment goods firms and be done with it.
Didn't it basically turn into a hookup app at some point?
it can be whatever you want it to be
i agree this become more common over the years, bit it's anyway easily avoidable through references or just by checking up sexuality, after all statistics are on your side, if you host person of same gender you are unlikely going into hook up
i agree this become more common over the years, bit it's anyway easily avoidable through references or just by checking up sexuality, after all statistics are on your side, if you host person of same gender you are unlikely going into hook up
And even if one person is after the same gender, they wont just assume the other is without asking.
[deleted]
Couchsurfing die at some point long ago. I forget exactly what happened, but globally all their volunteers per city left.
Would Covid-19 have put an end to the travels of Paul Erdős? That would have been a tragedy.
Can't read story about Couchsurfing paywall as the article is behind paywall ;)
Well folks, in these changed times it seems that the last artefacts of the old world have been firmly cemented in history, as Couchsurfing International Inc. decides to unilaterally charge its members, eroding away the last remnants of community spirit and hammering the final nail in the capitalist coffin it built for itself.
The fact Couchsurfing didn’t warn or consult the community it hosts that the company was switching to a paid service, effective immediately as of 14th May 2020, only underlines the already poor track record of the management. Just in case you weren’t sure how mainstream the service went, they’ve gone and removed all doubt.
In order to simply message old friends through the site, people who you warmly welcomed into your home, who kindly hosted you in a strange foreign land — or who perhaps changed your life — you must now pay a subscription fee. Users have essentially had their accounts frozen unless they pay the fee immediately.
The bosses of Couchsurfing know how much these old connections mean to some members, so in one final hustle have blocked messaging and even referencing, forcing those who have no other communication links to sign up for at least a month to speak to their friends, and hoping for a little bonus before the gentrified party is over for good.
It also means those that use the site only for hosting, in other words, offer their homes to others for free, have to pay the fee too.
This should kick out the remaining ethically-minded members. Leaving only noobs and those that want to save money when travelling to run the whole show. To be fair, $15 a year is not a lot to ask. But the way they asked shows everybody exactly where Couchsurfing stands.
The fact Couchsurfing didn’t warn or consult the community it hosts that the company was switching to a paid service, effective immediately as of 14th May 2020, only underlines the already poor track record of the management. Just in case you weren’t sure how mainstream the service went, they’ve gone and removed all doubt.
In order to simply message old friends through the site, people who you warmly welcomed into your home, who kindly hosted you in a strange foreign land — or who perhaps changed your life — you must now pay a subscription fee. Users have essentially had their accounts frozen unless they pay the fee immediately.
The bosses of Couchsurfing know how much these old connections mean to some members, so in one final hustle have blocked messaging and even referencing, forcing those who have no other communication links to sign up for at least a month to speak to their friends, and hoping for a little bonus before the gentrified party is over for good.
It also means those that use the site only for hosting, in other words, offer their homes to others for free, have to pay the fee too.
This should kick out the remaining ethically-minded members. Leaving only noobs and those that want to save money when travelling to run the whole show. To be fair, $15 a year is not a lot to ask. But the way they asked shows everybody exactly where Couchsurfing stands.
Couchsurfing admits on its own blog that 4% of its users have contributed to the platform before the recent announcement. Considering that at time of writing it has well over 15 million users, at 4% that’s at least $15 million dollars alone if everyone paid the verification fee only once (based on the only feasible way to contribute — the $25 verification fee per year). The management has probably worked out, while they sip lattes over Zoom, that even if there is a mass exodus and those without any principles at all remain, they will still miraculously break even.
In contrast, BeWelcome, a similar but much less popular platform, covered their finances with less than $10,000. BeWelcome is also completely transparent about their finances. Everyone who has used Couchsurfing knows that policy has slowly — although not imperceptibly — changed over the years. The sole aim since it changed from .org to .com has been to increase its membership and with that the hope that its members will pay to be verified under the controversial pretext that this makes the community safer. As a host, I can say this “safer” mantra is nonsense. It’s the references I care about. It’s what the community, not the bank, say about you that I care about.
Of course, Couchsurfing will never die for good. Its apparition will live on in the memories of original users, their profiles as tombstones representing an age — however brief — where three great things: the internet, travel and the human spirit combined to create an enviable community accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Considering the incredible stories, the global relationships and shared interests of locals, there is little doubt that Couchsurfing changed the world. Just how many people turned a new era in their lives through a friendship which can be traced back to Couchsurfing? For a while it flew in the face of the monetisation of simple travel, even as a for-profit company it triumphed as the lefty nemesis of Airbnb and the boutique hostel craze which swept the world; now rearranging its company structure to join them, having long replaced the wording of its most fundamental function from “community” to “profit”. Over the last years, the true community still struggled on, creating events and meet-ups and ignoring the new requests from creepy men with empty profiles, while in the background $22.6 million was quietly being squandered to turn Couchsurfing into the next trendy startup venture.
Many community organisations (wikipedia.org for example) which respect their user-base — indeed realise they are their user-base — have resorted to reaching out to their members in search of aid when times got tough, financial or otherwise. Even some newspapers, dammit, score morally higher by asking for donations rather than ransoms.
Despite the recent drama, it’s already clear from Couchsurfing’s Privacy Policy that other money making outlets besides the ones they mention do exist:
“We may engage a third party data provider who may collect web log data from you or place or recognize a unique cookie on your browser” “We may also share aggregated or de-identified information, which cannot reasonably be used to identify you.”
They may not admit directly selling your data. But Couchsurfing allows other companies to collect it in exchange for advertising space, which is paid for. The key words here are “engage”, and “reasonably”, which means if you are a large company and have the means to to re-identify data, then ta-da! — those trackers which monitor clicks and people you interact with, many who are now linked to profiles on Facebook, combine to make a neat little profile for you, and the travel-themed adverts stack up higher than the empty iPhone boxes at the Couchsurfing headquarters, which is now closed from Covid19, by the way.
But that probably didn’t work out for them, which is why they are now allegedly scrapping the advertising plan. Returning instead in true business-means-business style to the community, which after being neglected for years, they have suddenly realised they depend on. And may also realise no longer exists.
But how can it be so bad? As of May 2020, it is one of the top 10,000 websites by Alexa rank, putting it in the top 0.001% of websites in the world — absolutely no mean feat. And certainly not in a position to be losing money. If Couchsurfing couldn’t make it work with that amount of traffic, and with multiple multi-million dollar investments, while simultaneously ignoring its community and deleting its oldest and most valued members, it deserves to die. Nobody asked for all the fancy graphics and apps they made for us. People that are willing to sleep on a stranger’s mattress can live with a few, em, bugs. If community powered websites like Reddit can survive, Couchsurfing could have survived too.
Everyone that has used the site, even until very recently, will be grateful that it existed; its simple empowerment of people allowed everyone to get more of the best thing about it: the people we meet. If anything, it remains as a bleak lesson on the poisonous nature of replacing strength of community with financial capital. Now it’s time to shift away from what is essentially a company run by faceless people whose sole community is those in Silicon Valley; the only question remaining is, where do we go?
In contrast, BeWelcome, a similar but much less popular platform, covered their finances with less than $10,000. BeWelcome is also completely transparent about their finances. Everyone who has used Couchsurfing knows that policy has slowly — although not imperceptibly — changed over the years. The sole aim since it changed from .org to .com has been to increase its membership and with that the hope that its members will pay to be verified under the controversial pretext that this makes the community safer. As a host, I can say this “safer” mantra is nonsense. It’s the references I care about. It’s what the community, not the bank, say about you that I care about.
Of course, Couchsurfing will never die for good. Its apparition will live on in the memories of original users, their profiles as tombstones representing an age — however brief — where three great things: the internet, travel and the human spirit combined to create an enviable community accessible to anyone with an internet connection. Considering the incredible stories, the global relationships and shared interests of locals, there is little doubt that Couchsurfing changed the world. Just how many people turned a new era in their lives through a friendship which can be traced back to Couchsurfing? For a while it flew in the face of the monetisation of simple travel, even as a for-profit company it triumphed as the lefty nemesis of Airbnb and the boutique hostel craze which swept the world; now rearranging its company structure to join them, having long replaced the wording of its most fundamental function from “community” to “profit”. Over the last years, the true community still struggled on, creating events and meet-ups and ignoring the new requests from creepy men with empty profiles, while in the background $22.6 million was quietly being squandered to turn Couchsurfing into the next trendy startup venture.
Many community organisations (wikipedia.org for example) which respect their user-base — indeed realise they are their user-base — have resorted to reaching out to their members in search of aid when times got tough, financial or otherwise. Even some newspapers, dammit, score morally higher by asking for donations rather than ransoms.
Despite the recent drama, it’s already clear from Couchsurfing’s Privacy Policy that other money making outlets besides the ones they mention do exist:
“We may engage a third party data provider who may collect web log data from you or place or recognize a unique cookie on your browser” “We may also share aggregated or de-identified information, which cannot reasonably be used to identify you.”
They may not admit directly selling your data. But Couchsurfing allows other companies to collect it in exchange for advertising space, which is paid for. The key words here are “engage”, and “reasonably”, which means if you are a large company and have the means to to re-identify data, then ta-da! — those trackers which monitor clicks and people you interact with, many who are now linked to profiles on Facebook, combine to make a neat little profile for you, and the travel-themed adverts stack up higher than the empty iPhone boxes at the Couchsurfing headquarters, which is now closed from Covid19, by the way.
But that probably didn’t work out for them, which is why they are now allegedly scrapping the advertising plan. Returning instead in true business-means-business style to the community, which after being neglected for years, they have suddenly realised they depend on. And may also realise no longer exists.
But how can it be so bad? As of May 2020, it is one of the top 10,000 websites by Alexa rank, putting it in the top 0.001% of websites in the world — absolutely no mean feat. And certainly not in a position to be losing money. If Couchsurfing couldn’t make it work with that amount of traffic, and with multiple multi-million dollar investments, while simultaneously ignoring its community and deleting its oldest and most valued members, it deserves to die. Nobody asked for all the fancy graphics and apps they made for us. People that are willing to sleep on a stranger’s mattress can live with a few, em, bugs. If community powered websites like Reddit can survive, Couchsurfing could have survived too.
Everyone that has used the site, even until very recently, will be grateful that it existed; its simple empowerment of people allowed everyone to get more of the best thing about it: the people we meet. If anything, it remains as a bleak lesson on the poisonous nature of replacing strength of community with financial capital. Now it’s time to shift away from what is essentially a company run by faceless people whose sole community is those in Silicon Valley; the only question remaining is, where do we go?
rdtwo(3)
no wonder why their app sucks.. free is never great. imagine if amazon or google never changed their business models, they would've never become the useful things they are today, would they? if you pay, you get a better service, period.
Do you though? Maybe there are users who only want the free product, to them couchsurfing for a fee is a worse model.
Coachsurfing explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOUobuGaY7U
Never heard of Couchsurfing and I'm quite shocked this idea was able to captivate a considerable amount of people. It all seems terrible to me. Invite a bunch of strangers to hang out in your house? What a terrible idea! Sure, not all people are morons or psychos but there are such people out there. And only one is all it takes to end or completely ruin your life. Risk a life to be able to hear a bunch of bullshit what some idiot has to say is totally not worth it imo. If you want to talk to an idiot - you can find plenty of them on Facebook or Twitter. At least it's safe. And for the real life communications just hang out with your family, classmates, coworkers or even neighbors. There are a thousand people that you know and have some sort of relation to. If you wanna date - use tinder or something.
Be careful out there, if not for yourself but for those, who love you and care for you!
The basic idea is you stay at a stranger's place, or you host a stranger at yours - completely for free, no money involved. Everyone does it differently. Some people plan their trip meticulously months in advance and give arrival times to the minute, while others send a message at 9pm the same night asking if you're free. Some people ask to stay one night, some three, some far more; some bring bags of delicious food and artwork of their culture and some bring nothing.
I mostly host, and I've had all of the above - and then some. You have an incredibly diverse group of people. I've met artists, musicians, dancers - everyone from a Syrian man who lived under ISIS for years to an evangelical Christian woman who wanted to try shrooms.
The beautiful thing is that it's anything you want it to be. People have profiles that are often filled out with a good amount of detail (I usually skip the skimpy profiles) so you can pick out whoever or whatever you want. You want a pastry chef? You want a violinist? You want an architect? You want someone tidy and on-time or a hitchhiking hippie? Simply search for one to host or stay with.
The friendships and relationships I've made through Couchsurfing have been some of the best and most interesting I could have asked for. And the best part - you can do it all from home, traveling the world from the comfort of your couch.
Anyway, that's the beauty of it. I really hope that the network of people can be saved. Long term, I think it can, with something like BeWelcome, but of course it's a network effect problem - no hosts=no guests.
If anyone is curious about Couchsurfing (or wants to couchsurf my boat in the Netherlands - seriously, anyone is welcome, please come!) then feel free to send me an email (it's in my profile.)