Ask HN: How to care about work again?
30 comments
I had a similar experience which turned out to be an internet addiction.
Compared to obsessively checking hn, fb, Twitter, CNN, ANY job is boring.
What helped me: no screen time after 8pm, and device-free Saturday.
I also try avoiding screen time an hour or two after waking up.
And I try keeping away from social networks.
If I could, I would've taken a device-free month off work.
Compared to obsessively checking hn, fb, Twitter, CNN, ANY job is boring.
What helped me: no screen time after 8pm, and device-free Saturday.
I also try avoiding screen time an hour or two after waking up.
And I try keeping away from social networks.
If I could, I would've taken a device-free month off work.
regarding burnout:
http://nymag.com/news/features/24757/
One quote from this piece that struck a chord with me was "level of caring couldn’t be sustained in the absence of results."
The last time I noticed I was showing signs of starting to burn out I found it helpful to take more time off work (e.g. dialling down from full time work to part time work for a month) to help destress & let my mind focus more on non work things. The part time work was a temporary measure while wrangling a change to a different role/different project.
It took a few weeks of exercise & walks & writing out my thoughts on paper for my mind to settle down and stop obsessing over work & stop "radiating stress" from internalised work related nonsense. Be kind to yourself.
Under more normal mental conditions, it helps me to have a clear understanding of exactly what brings me to work every day, even when most of the days are frustrating or boring or senseless: it's the money. Money isn't the most important thing in life, but gotta keep paying the bills, and saving & investing offers a pathway to permanently reduce the amount of frustrating or boring work that needs to be done in the future.
One quote from this piece that struck a chord with me was "level of caring couldn’t be sustained in the absence of results."
The last time I noticed I was showing signs of starting to burn out I found it helpful to take more time off work (e.g. dialling down from full time work to part time work for a month) to help destress & let my mind focus more on non work things. The part time work was a temporary measure while wrangling a change to a different role/different project.
It took a few weeks of exercise & walks & writing out my thoughts on paper for my mind to settle down and stop obsessing over work & stop "radiating stress" from internalised work related nonsense. Be kind to yourself.
Under more normal mental conditions, it helps me to have a clear understanding of exactly what brings me to work every day, even when most of the days are frustrating or boring or senseless: it's the money. Money isn't the most important thing in life, but gotta keep paying the bills, and saving & investing offers a pathway to permanently reduce the amount of frustrating or boring work that needs to be done in the future.
How do you do any of these things while having young children at home?
From the article:
And childless people, though unburdened by the daily strains of parenting, tend to burn out far more than people with kids.
And childless people, though unburdened by the daily strains of parenting, tend to burn out far more than people with kids.
I'm facing a situation similar to yours: consulting space, working for a big-4 in Canada but WFH from South America, was just let go of a project.
While I think people need some sense of purpose for their jobs, it doesn't need to be a higher thing as long as work/life balance 'hygiene factors' stay in check. I think that was disrupted for a lot of us during the pandemic. For example, I'd offset my anal-retentive boss with socializing in the office or taking long walks, or if at home I'd do some reading, working out, etc.
It didn't help for me that everything seems so over-engineered nowadays, especially in the frontend space, so with all of that plus stuff life throws at you, eventually I just stopped caring about work.
Taking some time off helps, but if those feelings are still there, have a Plan B. I did and now I can stay out of the industry for a while, hopefully coming back fresh-minded as I still like programming.
I really think programmers of the past had a blast when scratching their own itches, either solo or in close-knit teams, then turning ideas into entirely new product categories. This is not what I signed up for.
While I think people need some sense of purpose for their jobs, it doesn't need to be a higher thing as long as work/life balance 'hygiene factors' stay in check. I think that was disrupted for a lot of us during the pandemic. For example, I'd offset my anal-retentive boss with socializing in the office or taking long walks, or if at home I'd do some reading, working out, etc.
It didn't help for me that everything seems so over-engineered nowadays, especially in the frontend space, so with all of that plus stuff life throws at you, eventually I just stopped caring about work.
Taking some time off helps, but if those feelings are still there, have a Plan B. I did and now I can stay out of the industry for a while, hopefully coming back fresh-minded as I still like programming.
I really think programmers of the past had a blast when scratching their own itches, either solo or in close-knit teams, then turning ideas into entirely new product categories. This is not what I signed up for.
It sounds like burnout
Which seems kind of boring
But nonetheless
I got out of it a couple times by being unemployed for months
Found new jobs and realized after the first couple of days that
Even though the "don't care" still seemed to be there
I was actually fine doing whatever garbage I used to do
I do remember reading lots of advice that did not at all seem to engage with the seriousness of my condition
A lot of it was tweak this, start doing that, etc
I just thought, "yeah, fuck you, too. Assholess."
General advice would be start reading and youtubing like crazy
As soon as the person suggests you just need to 'put yourself in your happy place' or dismisses your condition in some other way, just move on to the next page/video/book/therapist.
I'm guessing burnout is still so common for a few reasons -- one being that as a society we just don't take it seriously yet, even after all this time
Reminds me I just saw mini doc on AJE or something about burnout in Sweden or something
And they are taking it hella serious, in part because of its combination with covid, I think.
Which seems kind of boring
But nonetheless
I got out of it a couple times by being unemployed for months
Found new jobs and realized after the first couple of days that
Even though the "don't care" still seemed to be there
I was actually fine doing whatever garbage I used to do
I do remember reading lots of advice that did not at all seem to engage with the seriousness of my condition
A lot of it was tweak this, start doing that, etc
I just thought, "yeah, fuck you, too. Assholess."
General advice would be start reading and youtubing like crazy
As soon as the person suggests you just need to 'put yourself in your happy place' or dismisses your condition in some other way, just move on to the next page/video/book/therapist.
I'm guessing burnout is still so common for a few reasons -- one being that as a society we just don't take it seriously yet, even after all this time
Reminds me I just saw mini doc on AJE or something about burnout in Sweden or something
And they are taking it hella serious, in part because of its combination with covid, I think.
Do something else. Perhaps away from IT. Do that for a month. Volunteer in your local community. Then come back. Your outlook will be different.
Realign with purpose. Update purpose if necessary.
Realign with purpose. Update purpose if necessary.
I noticed that both of the examples you mentioned being sick or tired of is building a next.js app app for a pdf based product and assembling react apps for arbitrary companies.
Have you thought about doing something other than frontend web dev? I know that's the hotness right now and that's the easiest path to get you jobs/money, but there's a variety of roles in software eng like web backend, data engineering, and even to other related disciplines like data science (with some learning curve), dev ops, embedded systems, etc. If you feel burned out from software engineering altogether, try using your expertise in other types of projects. For example if you enjoy making videos and teaching, make some Youtube videos to teach code or app building. Likewise if you enjoy music, you can do that instead.
Have you thought about doing something other than frontend web dev? I know that's the hotness right now and that's the easiest path to get you jobs/money, but there's a variety of roles in software eng like web backend, data engineering, and even to other related disciplines like data science (with some learning curve), dev ops, embedded systems, etc. If you feel burned out from software engineering altogether, try using your expertise in other types of projects. For example if you enjoy making videos and teaching, make some Youtube videos to teach code or app building. Likewise if you enjoy music, you can do that instead.
Read books. What will help you out of this is out there somewhere but you may only find it through serendipitous channels.
I have read several books that totally unwound my previous education/experience and led me out of the current state of the shared common knowledge rut in a particular domain/field. While that has added to my contempt for the current state of things I am farther ahead and able to make better choices on where to focus my attention.
The challenge for anyone as their knowledge and capabilities improve is that the number of existing opportunities in which they can be fully engaged approaches zero. So ultimately you will feel better if you are open to creating opportunities for yourself.
I have read several books that totally unwound my previous education/experience and led me out of the current state of the shared common knowledge rut in a particular domain/field. While that has added to my contempt for the current state of things I am farther ahead and able to make better choices on where to focus my attention.
The challenge for anyone as their knowledge and capabilities improve is that the number of existing opportunities in which they can be fully engaged approaches zero. So ultimately you will feel better if you are open to creating opportunities for yourself.
Make your own thing, a product that you create and control yourself. Support requests suddenly become a lot more personal and it's a lot more rewarding than the reward of a regular wage. But in order to actually have users/customers, better focus on their needs rather than your own curiosity (which you can still satisfy -- but it's not going to be what customers are looking for)
The platform/framework doesnt matter, literally not at all, 0%. Go for whatever allows you to iterate superfast with least effort.
https://www.indiehackers.com/
The platform/framework doesnt matter, literally not at all, 0%. Go for whatever allows you to iterate superfast with least effort.
https://www.indiehackers.com/
I can only second that!
The control part is crucial here. From psychological perspective - human beings loose motivation when faced for a prolonged amount of times with environments they can take control over / achieve satisfaction. An edge case scenario within the same set of problems is called learned helplessness and is a well know phenomena.
Gain control, and you will feel all the good juices flowing thru your body again.
The control part is crucial here. From psychological perspective - human beings loose motivation when faced for a prolonged amount of times with environments they can take control over / achieve satisfaction. An edge case scenario within the same set of problems is called learned helplessness and is a well know phenomena.
Gain control, and you will feel all the good juices flowing thru your body again.
I really resonate with this.
I have transitioned to new technology stacks 4 times in my 8 year career. I am tired throwing away all the work and expertise I have gained just to start over again.
I made one of those switches a couple month ago. So now I'm the new guy on the team while WFH. It is very tough to stay motivated, especially since the subject matter is very boring and the the leadership seems to be shortsighted.
I have transitioned to new technology stacks 4 times in my 8 year career. I am tired throwing away all the work and expertise I have gained just to start over again.
I made one of those switches a couple month ago. So now I'm the new guy on the team while WFH. It is very tough to stay motivated, especially since the subject matter is very boring and the the leadership seems to be shortsighted.
>What have you done when you've concluded that most stuff just isn't compelling enough to even get you out of bed for the morning meeting?
I have outlined what I'm doing here: https://atlantis5.home.blog/ . Summary: Collect level headed people and deal with them. Not saying that the goal is easy. The entire meaninglessness of most stuff that we all do, stems from shortsighted, idiotic human nature.
Oh well, and congratulations on having grown up. The entire I-must-love-my-job-else-something-is-wrong-with-me thing is a fool's errand. Oh Canada :)
I have outlined what I'm doing here: https://atlantis5.home.blog/ . Summary: Collect level headed people and deal with them. Not saying that the goal is easy. The entire meaninglessness of most stuff that we all do, stems from shortsighted, idiotic human nature.
Oh well, and congratulations on having grown up. The entire I-must-love-my-job-else-something-is-wrong-with-me thing is a fool's errand. Oh Canada :)
The entire I-must-love-my-job-else-something-is-wrong-with-me thing is a fool's errand.
It is but actually hating your job isn't great either.
It is but actually hating your job isn't great either.
>It is but actually hating your job isn't great either.
Agreed, when this happens it's generally because your colleagues are a disagreeable lot.
It is also it is true that things like depression, health and disposition will effect how you view your work.
Agreed, when this happens it's generally because your colleagues are a disagreeable lot.
It is also it is true that things like depression, health and disposition will effect how you view your work.
A similar thing happened to me a few years back. I seriously considered changing careers, and decided not to renew my contract.
I decided to try work on an idea some one suggested a while before. I ended up eventually launching an iPhone app, and really enjoyed the experience (I work as a backend engineer usually). About a month later, someone called about an interesting project, and I’ve been fine since then (although working on different projects).
So the two tips I have are 1) build something for yourself or 2) learn something new and get a job in a different language/environment (it’s a big field).
I decided to try work on an idea some one suggested a while before. I ended up eventually launching an iPhone app, and really enjoyed the experience (I work as a backend engineer usually). About a month later, someone called about an interesting project, and I’ve been fine since then (although working on different projects).
So the two tips I have are 1) build something for yourself or 2) learn something new and get a job in a different language/environment (it’s a big field).
Hi,
Even i do feel stuck like,ok now i am learning this and happy about it but what is the point of all these things i am just waiting for requirements and doing it as per required
I have written about my problem here:- https://www.reddit.com/r/careerguidance/comments/gqhyem/how_...
Hi,
I am going through similar experience,shared my experience posted here and in reddit as well.
Link:- https://www.reddit.com/r/careerguidance/comments/gqhyem/how_....
Even i feel i am still stuck and don't know how to proceed
Even i feel i am still stuck and don't know how to proceed
> how arduous some frontend architectures have become
This resonates with me. I'm a backend (sometimes fullstack) dev and can't fathom how FE-devs keep doing what they do, especially if UX is designed by someone else as well.
I would suggest getting yourself into a small backend/platform team. The problems/challenges tend to be more diverse/less cookie-cutter.
This resonates with me. I'm a backend (sometimes fullstack) dev and can't fathom how FE-devs keep doing what they do, especially if UX is designed by someone else as well.
I would suggest getting yourself into a small backend/platform team. The problems/challenges tend to be more diverse/less cookie-cutter.
Personally I regained a lot of motivation by going subcontracting. It lights a fire under your butt.
Contracting on higher value shorter term projects had crossed my mind. Care to elaborate?
What I really like about subcontracting, is that you are not carrying the full risk for the project. However, the client is still the client, and this carries with itself both a freedom (no loyalties beyond the contractual) and an added responsibility (it's your client, and you want them to be happy).
It's a style which suits me, and gives an added motivation. Note that if the work itself is extremely boring, this still doesn't make it all hunky-dory. There must be a balance here.
Personally, I like the smaller-sized projects where the iOS part can be done either by myself or with another team member. This way, I have enough overview to wrap up the project in a decent time and look for another if it's not to my liking.
It's a style which suits me, and gives an added motivation. Note that if the work itself is extremely boring, this still doesn't make it all hunky-dory. There must be a balance here.
Personally, I like the smaller-sized projects where the iOS part can be done either by myself or with another team member. This way, I have enough overview to wrap up the project in a decent time and look for another if it's not to my liking.
I have been considering freelancing route for a while. And the reasons you gave above are same for me.
In addition, I work in a big corp where I spend a lot of time red tapes formalities but contractors in my team only have to worry about their code and they get paid almost double some employees.
My question is how did you get started? I know you said subcontracting, is it through a consulting firm or do you do it through your own firm?
In addition, I work in a big corp where I spend a lot of time red tapes formalities but contractors in my team only have to worry about their code and they get paid almost double some employees.
My question is how did you get started? I know you said subcontracting, is it through a consulting firm or do you do it through your own firm?
I set up my own firm first. But for my country (Netherlands) that's really just a simple registration that takes all of ten minutes. Then I sent my resume to a number of agencies that broker between corporations and subcontractors. They usually ask your rate, do the negotiations with you and the end custoner, and take 15-25% margin.
I think it's worth it but YMMV.
Furthermore there's a host of smaller stuff that you need to take care of. Liability ensurance, pension, health insurance, bookkeeping, separate bank account, and sending a time sheet and bill every month.
I think it's worth it but YMMV.
Furthermore there's a host of smaller stuff that you need to take care of. Liability ensurance, pension, health insurance, bookkeeping, separate bank account, and sending a time sheet and bill every month.
Learn a new programming language or framework. Create a hobby project on it. It may bring back the fun of coding rather than coding because its your job.
I think part of what he said is he's tired of learning new tech, using it once or twice, and then never using it again.
You consider building a website a menial task? I can't understand that mindset at all.
To an EMT doing chest compression on a dying man is a menial task, but if I did it I would probably bore my family and friends with the tale for the rest of my life.
What?
I don’t know how to build the UI aspects of a website, seems creative and engaging to me!
The thought of assembling react apps for an arbitrary company is saddening and I can't focus on something I'm not intrinsically interested in. Not that building websites is not interesting, but it seems like the output is often very mundane compared to how how arduous some frontend architectures have become.
By contrast, I can focus very well on sufficiently difficult and impactful projects, most likely where I have some control in the decisions made about the project. Likewise, I have no delusions that I'm some slept on PHD candidate that is too good for basic work. But I don't really know where to go from here. Do I continue just sort of enjoying the summer like I have every other time I've left a job, perhaps spending my time on creating something or contributing to OS?
A good example of the previous, is that I was working on something I hadn't before in a domain that I'd never touched. Specifically figuring out how to compress files and embed them as attachments in PDF documents in the PDF product that we were working on. It involved understanding zlib and hex file signatures and compression methods. That said, the rest of the job included customer service responses and random troubleshooting for customers who used the SDK, something that made me dread coming into work and something that they did not make clear during the hiring process.
Do you have any personal experiences like this you'd share? What have you done when you've concluded that most stuff just isn't compelling enough to even get you out of bed for the morning meeting?