Pine64 September update(pine64.org)
pine64.org
Pine64 September update
https://www.pine64.org/2020/09/15/september-update-let-it-sink-in/
88 comments
I was disappointed, too, but they added an update in a comment[1]:
> Right, the Pinecil is coming along; Ben Brown who’s porting his firmware to the RISC-V chip ran into some problems with the prototype we sent him (our fault), so a new unit is on its way to him now. Once he confirms that everything is working as intended we’ll file a production request with the factory. I too am waiting for it with anticipation and hope that it won’t be much longer before we get it in the store.
[1]: https://www.pine64.org/2020/09/15/september-update-let-it-si...
> Right, the Pinecil is coming along; Ben Brown who’s porting his firmware to the RISC-V chip ran into some problems with the prototype we sent him (our fault), so a new unit is on its way to him now. Once he confirms that everything is working as intended we’ll file a production request with the factory. I too am waiting for it with anticipation and hope that it won’t be much longer before we get it in the store.
[1]: https://www.pine64.org/2020/09/15/september-update-let-it-si...
Late update: it seems they've added a suitable category to their store now, but without any actual product(s) listed.
[1]: https://pine64.com/product-category/soldering-irons/
[1]: https://pine64.com/product-category/soldering-irons/
Thanks, that's great to hear! Nice find.
> HW switches: LTE/GNSS, WiFi, Microphone, Speaker, Cameras
Is this only the second phone to have kill switches for these devices?
Or are there others about which I'm just not aware?
Is this only the second phone to have kill switches for these devices?
Or are there others about which I'm just not aware?
Wikipedia's page on open-source mobile phones [0] has a table with a kill switch column, and it only lists the Pinephone and Librem 5, although the list is pretty short and possibly incomplete.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_pho...
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_pho...
Note that pinephone's kill switches are not as useful as librem 5's ones, because you can't easily switch them on the go. The switches are inside the phone, so you have to open it, and they're so tiny that you need a toothpicker or a needle to switch them.
It should be noted, however, that the Pinephone's cover is designed to be easily removed. And I have had no problem flipping the kill switches with my house keys that I am always carrying with me anyway.
> Pinephone's cover is designed to be easily removed
Yes, compared with iPhones or Android phones, but not really. It requires two hands and at least several seconds. You will definitely miss that cool photo moment.
Yes, compared with iPhones or Android phones, but not really. It requires two hands and at least several seconds. You will definitely miss that cool photo moment.
[deleted]
I've been wanting to cut a little window in the back cover to get access to those, plus another to ventilate the SoC.
So what's the current state of the Pinephone? Is it viable as a daily driver? Half a year ago I was still hearing about broken suspend, power issues, broken call/SMS, etc.
I was an early Firefox phone user and for six months happily put up with these types of annoyances with the hope that they would improve. I only stopped using it once it became clear things had stagnated.
If this achieves sufficient penetration to get past the stagnation valley of doom, I'll jump on the bandwagon again with the same hopes. Unfortunately I don't have work as much time as I used to back then though :(
If this achieves sufficient penetration to get past the stagnation valley of doom, I'll jump on the bandwagon again with the same hopes. Unfortunately I don't have work as much time as I used to back then though :(
I still have mine. I fully intend to have it in my pocket next time I travel to the US. "Sure, you can see my phone. Here, I'll unlock it for you. Go for it! <watches security goon's head assplode>"
I'm currently using Arch Linux ARM (Alarm), but most/all of these things should (or should soon) be working on Mobian (Debian Port), PostmarketOS (PmOS), UBPorts (Ubuntu Touch):
- Calls/SMS are working and fairly reliable, although I haven't used them a huge amount
- There is some suspend/power saving stuff implemented, and while I haven't had to take it on the go with me for very long (due to quarantine), I think the battery should at least last a full day now, but I think there's definitely room for improvement
- Camera should be working on all distros, and there's recently been developments to get 1080p photos, and a 30 FPS "preview" (viewfinder?). These improvements should be on all the distros soon, but IIRC they're only on PmOS and UBPorts right now
- Firefox is working pretty well for web browsing. PmOS has a mobile configuration for it [0] (that's also shipped with Alarm now), that fixes/improves some of the UI, adds pinch zoom support, etc. Aside from the occasional crash, I've found it to be pretty fast and reliable (at least compared to when I last tried Gnome Web). The downside is that it's still not fully optimized for touch/mobile compared to other options. Will be interested to see if Mozilla/someone else add some kind of mobile interface to desktop Firefox.
- Tested yesterday and bluetooth headphones are working pretty well. Had some issues pairing in the UI, so I had to use SSH and bluetoothctl, but after that everything was pretty smooth. pavucontrol also seems to be working ok if you need something that's missing from the Phosh settings app.
- Fractal and Nheko work pretty well for Matrix, but I'm going to try compiling Mirage [1] soon, it's been pretty great on desktop, and apparently the UI supports mobile.
This is a rough and very incomplete list, but feel free to ask if there's anything specific I missed.
[0]: https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/mobile-config-firefox
[1]: https://github.com/mirukana/mirage
- Calls/SMS are working and fairly reliable, although I haven't used them a huge amount
- There is some suspend/power saving stuff implemented, and while I haven't had to take it on the go with me for very long (due to quarantine), I think the battery should at least last a full day now, but I think there's definitely room for improvement
- Camera should be working on all distros, and there's recently been developments to get 1080p photos, and a 30 FPS "preview" (viewfinder?). These improvements should be on all the distros soon, but IIRC they're only on PmOS and UBPorts right now
- Firefox is working pretty well for web browsing. PmOS has a mobile configuration for it [0] (that's also shipped with Alarm now), that fixes/improves some of the UI, adds pinch zoom support, etc. Aside from the occasional crash, I've found it to be pretty fast and reliable (at least compared to when I last tried Gnome Web). The downside is that it's still not fully optimized for touch/mobile compared to other options. Will be interested to see if Mozilla/someone else add some kind of mobile interface to desktop Firefox.
- Tested yesterday and bluetooth headphones are working pretty well. Had some issues pairing in the UI, so I had to use SSH and bluetoothctl, but after that everything was pretty smooth. pavucontrol also seems to be working ok if you need something that's missing from the Phosh settings app.
- Fractal and Nheko work pretty well for Matrix, but I'm going to try compiling Mirage [1] soon, it's been pretty great on desktop, and apparently the UI supports mobile.
This is a rough and very incomplete list, but feel free to ask if there's anything specific I missed.
[0]: https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/mobile-config-firefox
[1]: https://github.com/mirukana/mirage
Maybe it's worth making clear for grandparent that "working" definitely does not mean "as good as Android/iOS" - but indeed, just "being usable" (and I'm pretty sure many people will decide it's "not usable" given how much it's not "as good"). You have to make sacrifices to use it as your main phone (it won't be as great an experience; on the other hand, your phone won't spy on you).
Regarding battery, I found the suspend gains to not be that useful for me. I don't know if it's just me, but you give me a GNU/linux phone and I go wild on what I do with it.
It runs webservices, so my data is accessible to all my devices without needing to use a "cloud" service (that is, it's accessible without leaving my local network and I own my data). And the phone is also my modem and router for all those devices. A consequence of that is that I definitely don't want it to go to suspend 5 minutes after I stop using its keyboard :)
Maybe I'm a outlier there, but if users want their GNU/linux phone to do anything more than simply answering to inputs, suspend won't help. We need to make softwares that consume less power, which I would think never was really a consideration of GNU/linux desktop GUI apps, so there's some work we have to do there (and many cool challenges!). I would also argue that whatever the reason is, we need to make software that consume less power anyway.
Regarding battery, I found the suspend gains to not be that useful for me. I don't know if it's just me, but you give me a GNU/linux phone and I go wild on what I do with it.
It runs webservices, so my data is accessible to all my devices without needing to use a "cloud" service (that is, it's accessible without leaving my local network and I own my data). And the phone is also my modem and router for all those devices. A consequence of that is that I definitely don't want it to go to suspend 5 minutes after I stop using its keyboard :)
Maybe I'm a outlier there, but if users want their GNU/linux phone to do anything more than simply answering to inputs, suspend won't help. We need to make softwares that consume less power, which I would think never was really a consideration of GNU/linux desktop GUI apps, so there's some work we have to do there (and many cool challenges!). I would also argue that whatever the reason is, we need to make software that consume less power anyway.
I ordered mine, and it hasn't arrived yet.
I am not sure if I will use it as my main phone, just because it doesn't support 5G Wifi.
At home it would be the only non iot/smart device that would need 2.4G Wifi and I blocked those from direct internet access.
I am not sure if I will use it as my main phone, just because it doesn't support 5G Wifi.
At home it would be the only non iot/smart device that would need 2.4G Wifi and I blocked those from direct internet access.
If you have the newer cicruit board, you should be able to use a nano wifi with usb-c adapter.
I’d swap to a pine phone in an instant, once it is a viable alternative, at least for the bare bones stuff. I appreciate it’s a chicken-and-egg problem! But until I can use it, reliably, all day long, to check messages, call etc I would need a closed-source phone with me anyway... which sort of defies the purpose of having a pine phone too.
I would say that Ubtunu Touch and Sailfish are the best distros right now, probably on par with very early Android in terms of usability. There are still major issues such as mms being broken, extremely poor battery life in some distros, an embarrassingly bad camera. On top of this, the performance just isn't there yet in most distros, sailfish is the only one with acceptable performance IMO. I wouldn't rely on it for a daily.
Since the Pinephone interests mainly a Free Software and open hardware audience, it is worth noting that Sailfish is not libre – the UI is closed source.
I have Mobian installed, and I don't have a spare SIM card to try calling and SMS. (I have tried postmarketOS and kde neon, and neither was good enough)
Functionally, everything else works: WIFI, apps, suspend, camera, music, etc.
I wouldn't use this as my primary phone, though, as it still crashed on me a few times. Many programs cannot adapt to the screen size effectively; buttons, menus are sometimes not possible to see.
It's not unusable, but not ideal if you want a robust primary phone.
Another drawback (if used as a main phone) is that it's really slow. In fact, it's possibly the slowest device --- with regard to user interaction --- that I have used in years, which is okay for a pinephone, as it is intended as a testing device.
Functionally, everything else works: WIFI, apps, suspend, camera, music, etc.
I wouldn't use this as my primary phone, though, as it still crashed on me a few times. Many programs cannot adapt to the screen size effectively; buttons, menus are sometimes not possible to see.
It's not unusable, but not ideal if you want a robust primary phone.
Another drawback (if used as a main phone) is that it's really slow. In fact, it's possibly the slowest device --- with regard to user interaction --- that I have used in years, which is okay for a pinephone, as it is intended as a testing device.
I agree on the slowness of the device. The Pinephone has been a huge disappointment for me in that regard. But I think that says more about the bloatedness of software in 2020 than the Allwinner A64 CPU in the Pinephone. Why does the old Nokia N900, with less RAM and a 2009-era processor, feel so snappy and responsive while still providing an interface that still seems modern today, but Phosh on the Pinephone has ragged scrolling and opening any new window takes forever?
I wonder what it would take to install Maemo/Meego or even matchbox and gpe. I never had a Nokia tablet, but I had a Zaurus SL5500 and it ran gpe usably. Matchbox also does a good job resizing apps to the full screen.
I have run Mobian and Phosh on Pinephone and while clean it was slow, clumsy to switch apps, and did not size most apps properly.
I have run Mobian and Phosh on Pinephone and while clean it was slow, clumsy to switch apps, and did not size most apps properly.
RE: slow
Did you try an X11 DE without compositing? Wayland based stuff (like phosh) is almost unusably slow for me, but on mate and fluxbox everything is very fast (firefox scrolls at ~15FPS instead of ~2 for example.)
Did you try an X11 DE without compositing? Wayland based stuff (like phosh) is almost unusably slow for me, but on mate and fluxbox everything is very fast (firefox scrolls at ~15FPS instead of ~2 for example.)
That’s a good idea. Thanks! I’ll give it a try.
It's pretty astounding to me how much progress that Pine64 has made in the last year.
I just got my Pinebook Pro last week (and typing this comment on it), and funny enough, I've been more productive on it for side projects than I have been for months.
I kinda wanted a PineTab, and so am a little sad to hear about the LCD delays, but their commentary and rationale on the delays and LCD QA is a type of transparency that I haven't heard in quite some time and it just builds hype for me.
I just got my Pinebook Pro last week (and typing this comment on it), and funny enough, I've been more productive on it for side projects than I have been for months.
I kinda wanted a PineTab, and so am a little sad to hear about the LCD delays, but their commentary and rationale on the delays and LCD QA is a type of transparency that I haven't heard in quite some time and it just builds hype for me.
What do you think caused the productivity boost?
At least for me with my Pinebook Pro, it feels a little bit like a typewriter does to me for writing -- it's perfectly capable, and powerful enough for all of my dev work and side projects aside from heavier stuff or any ML, but still limited enough and dedicated enough an environment that I find myself getting more done sitting out in the back yard or on the couch than I would sitting w/ my laptop regularly
I'd say the fact that 1) it's very lightweight/portable and 2) a bit more constrained in terms of hardware. I can't open 50 tabs and watch YouTube in the background. Additionally, I have some side projects on ARM code that, previously, I had to cross-compile on my desktop. Native development is a small boost, but not massive in comparison to the smaller hardware.
I could get the same "constrained hardware" effect by just hacking an older 2015 laptop, but the laptop is essentially a 2015 CPU with 2019 parts, so if I were to hack an older laptop to upgrade it'd likely be ~$200 since I wouldn't have the advantage of purchasing + assembling parts in bulk to reduce cost (also, my older laptop doesn't have a GPU).
Aside from cost, something a hacked older laptop wouldn't have (unless I rip out the CPU from its motherboard, which I wouldn't be willing to do) is the pretty amazing case and how light it is. The lightweightedness and good feel of the case makes it extremely portable for me.
Some might argue that "constrained hardware" is a con, but to me that's like saying using a headless system is a con. If you don't need/want it, why use it? Additionally, it's not like you're paying an extra/similar amount for lesser hardware -- it falls far below the typical market $/perf curve.
I could get the same "constrained hardware" effect by just hacking an older 2015 laptop, but the laptop is essentially a 2015 CPU with 2019 parts, so if I were to hack an older laptop to upgrade it'd likely be ~$200 since I wouldn't have the advantage of purchasing + assembling parts in bulk to reduce cost (also, my older laptop doesn't have a GPU).
Aside from cost, something a hacked older laptop wouldn't have (unless I rip out the CPU from its motherboard, which I wouldn't be willing to do) is the pretty amazing case and how light it is. The lightweightedness and good feel of the case makes it extremely portable for me.
Some might argue that "constrained hardware" is a con, but to me that's like saying using a headless system is a con. If you don't need/want it, why use it? Additionally, it's not like you're paying an extra/similar amount for lesser hardware -- it falls far below the typical market $/perf curve.
Personally, I'm waiting for the next batch of PineTabs. I've been wanting to create a programmable digital picture frame (with touch screen) for some time now, and the hardware costs are pretty high for all of the raspberry pi projects out there vs the $79 for the PineTab. The Amazon Fire 7 is cheaper ($50), but I'd rather build on top of vanilla Linux than try to replace the Amazon OS to strip out Android.
No word on the ARM deal and how they might be affected. They likely don't want to ruffle feathers before the dust is even settled, but I must wonder what is going through their heads. Hopefully they are looking into what it would take to put together a RISC-V SBC.
Why would Pine64 care in anyway about the buyout ?
They use Rockchip and Allwinner chips in their devices. Neither supplier has a perpetual license on the ARM ISA, and both suppliers use ARM Cortex-A CPU designs. Furthermore the Pinephone, Pinebook Pro, Rock64, and RockPro64 boards use Mali graphics.
The deal could have a significant effect on who they end up sourcing SoCs from, and what IP is on those SoCs.
The deal could have a significant effect on who they end up sourcing SoCs from, and what IP is on those SoCs.
Because Nvidia has a bad history concerning open source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Open-source_software_su...
This doesn't really matter in the mid term. Documentation is mostly a thing of the chip manufacturer and that has already been horrible, but worked around by the Linux community.
I have a PinePhone and I've been running Manjaro on it for a couple weeks. It's terrible and it's also the only phone I've been truly excited about, well ever.
I managed to watch some TV shows on it the other day! It's really cool stuff having a phone that's actually a proper little computer. The power management is terrible, the front camera doesn't have drivers, it's near impossible to do things that seem trivial (play an audiobook at 2x speed) without resorting to the command line. It often ends up in states that need a reboot. It's extremely rough around the edges but I can use it to post on HN while walking around Mountain View, so it's a huge step toward something real exciting.
:) Seriously, I love the thing.
I managed to watch some TV shows on it the other day! It's really cool stuff having a phone that's actually a proper little computer. The power management is terrible, the front camera doesn't have drivers, it's near impossible to do things that seem trivial (play an audiobook at 2x speed) without resorting to the command line. It often ends up in states that need a reboot. It's extremely rough around the edges but I can use it to post on HN while walking around Mountain View, so it's a huge step toward something real exciting.
:) Seriously, I love the thing.
That's exactly how I feel about mine. It runs PostmarketOS and I swapped out Phosh for SXMO which, despite being out of left field UI-wise, is way less janky and frustrating. It's still not within spitting distance of Android in terms of UX, let alone iOS, but it is the smartphone revolution we were all hoping for: hackable to the bone, runs all your favorite Linux software and only the software you want, open hardware (but for a few blobs) and hard kill switches for the camera, microphone, and radios. Great things will be built upon a platform like this.
> but it is the smartphone revolution we were all hoping for: hackable to the bone
I'm starting to get into this stuff, and your comment has me so excited!!
I'm starting to get into this stuff, and your comment has me so excited!!
I've loved sxmo. There's a lot to be done still (4g data out of the box), but it's so low on resources, and really is the most performant distro for the pinephone that I've tried.
> open hardware (but for a few blobs)
Only firmware blobs, right? I don't think you need any proprietary blobs running on the main CPU.
Only firmware blobs, right? I don't think you need any proprietary blobs running on the main CPU.
>It's terrible and it's also the only phone I've been truly excited about, well ever.
The IKEA effect.[1] >"The IKEA effect is a cognitive bias in which consumers place a disproportionately high value on products they partially created"
>without resorting to the command line
I want a command line only DE for PinePhone.
• On screen keyboard (Although hardware keyboard case is coming soon to PP).
• A section for realtime interrupts like calls, messages and notifications.
• Rest of the screen for native shell to do everything else, browsing? Lynx.
Advantage of this kind of DE is that it can allow us to create phones out of low power hardware like RPi zero as well.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
The IKEA effect.[1] >"The IKEA effect is a cognitive bias in which consumers place a disproportionately high value on products they partially created"
>without resorting to the command line
I want a command line only DE for PinePhone.
• On screen keyboard (Although hardware keyboard case is coming soon to PP).
• A section for realtime interrupts like calls, messages and notifications.
• Rest of the screen for native shell to do everything else, browsing? Lynx.
Advantage of this kind of DE is that it can allow us to create phones out of low power hardware like RPi zero as well.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
Have you seen https://sr.ht/~mil/Sxmo/? It has eg. “Calls & Texting: (via dmenu scripts/mmcli) Compose texts in $EDITOR / vim-like editor, read texts in $PAGER, make calls (and audio-route) via dmenu script utilizing modemmanager”
Thank you, I didn't know about it and it seems to be on the lines of what I need. I'll be exploring it further.
> It often ends up in states that need a reboot
Are you using Phosh? On Mobian, I found Phosh often freezing, especially when I'm downloading big files on my laptop (one of my main uses for my phone is as 4g hotspot).
When it happens, I found that I don't need a full reboot, I just have to ssh to the phone and run `sudo service phosh restart` - which is cool, because I don't have to reconfigure the hotspot or even just lose connection, that way.
Are you using Phosh? On Mobian, I found Phosh often freezing, especially when I'm downloading big files on my laptop (one of my main uses for my phone is as 4g hotspot).
When it happens, I found that I don't need a full reboot, I just have to ssh to the phone and run `sudo service phosh restart` - which is cool, because I don't have to reconfigure the hotspot or even just lose connection, that way.
It really is good, and it's constantly getting better. The pine64 kernel has a patch merged that supposedly fixes the bluetooth driver crashing on suspend (I haven't tried it yet.) Once you have that installed you can suspend the phone when its locked and the battery life is much better (Personally I have mine set up to suspend anyway and just tolerate the occasional panic.)
IMO: most of the weirdness comes from trying to replace CLI/X11 stuff with phosh. If you install a normal WM/DE like fluxbox or mate everything works like it would on a laptop.
IMO: most of the weirdness comes from trying to replace CLI/X11 stuff with phosh. If you install a normal WM/DE like fluxbox or mate everything works like it would on a laptop.
Not to be glib, but can it make phone calls? Last I checked, neither the Librem 5 nor the PinePhone were useful as a daily driver.
Not that I use the phone itself that much, I mostly use text-based messaging, but I don't want to carry two separate devices with me everywhere. If it's just for in-house use, I'd rather choose a larger tablet than a tiny phone.
Not that I use the phone itself that much, I mostly use text-based messaging, but I don't want to carry two separate devices with me everywhere. If it's just for in-house use, I'd rather choose a larger tablet than a tiny phone.
Last I checked they both can make calls now. Aside from perhaps lacking apps people want, you can probably get by with a Librem 5 depending on your needs - check youtube videos, people post them all the time particularly after updates.
I have a Pinephone and the phone calls work for me (Mobian).
Concerning Librem 5, they work too: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Cellul...
Concerning Librem 5, they work too: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Cellul...
This isn't a good thing, smartphones are cheap products, all we're doing with this device is making a toy that will gather dust after a few months. It's wasteful to ship a product like this where 90% of it doesn't work.
Your love of it probably comes from the familiar feeling you have from being abused by Linux distros on desktop - it's Stockholm syndrome.
I'm glad you are able to post to a message board on your phone, that's a huge step, yes, but this is sounding eerily familiar to the "huge steps" desktop linux distros have been making for decades.
Your love of it probably comes from the familiar feeling you have from being abused by Linux distros on desktop - it's Stockholm syndrome.
I'm glad you are able to post to a message board on your phone, that's a huge step, yes, but this is sounding eerily familiar to the "huge steps" desktop linux distros have been making for decades.
> but this is sounding eerily familiar to the "huge steps" desktop linux distros have been making for decades.
Well, good. Destkop Linux has come a huge way. I was playing around with Linux as a kid, and it wasn't mature enough for my needs. Fast forward to 2020 and I've had my parents on Linux without issues, I've currently got my nieces on Linux with zero issues, even though they're using those computers for all of their remote learning during the pandemic, and even though I haven't been able to visit them in person to fix any issues. I run Linux on 100% of my personal computers and it works great.
I don't think Linux is for everyone, but we're at the point where it's crazy to say that Linux isn't functionally competitive with Mac/Windows for some people, particularly professionals or nontechnical people on managed computers.
I used to play with Linux for ideological reasons, now I use Linux because I want to get work done in a stable environment. I used to avoid recommending Linux to anyone who wasn't technical, now if I can set the computer up for them I only recommend Linux because I know that Linux won't break behind my back.
Whether that's because Linux has gotten way better or because Windows/Mac has gotten way worse and is way less stable than it used to be -- you can be the judge of that. A Linux smartphone that worked 80-90% as well as the Linux desktop would be usable as a daily driver for me. That's at the point where I would feel comfortable getting rid of my Android phone.
Well, good. Destkop Linux has come a huge way. I was playing around with Linux as a kid, and it wasn't mature enough for my needs. Fast forward to 2020 and I've had my parents on Linux without issues, I've currently got my nieces on Linux with zero issues, even though they're using those computers for all of their remote learning during the pandemic, and even though I haven't been able to visit them in person to fix any issues. I run Linux on 100% of my personal computers and it works great.
I don't think Linux is for everyone, but we're at the point where it's crazy to say that Linux isn't functionally competitive with Mac/Windows for some people, particularly professionals or nontechnical people on managed computers.
I used to play with Linux for ideological reasons, now I use Linux because I want to get work done in a stable environment. I used to avoid recommending Linux to anyone who wasn't technical, now if I can set the computer up for them I only recommend Linux because I know that Linux won't break behind my back.
Whether that's because Linux has gotten way better or because Windows/Mac has gotten way worse and is way less stable than it used to be -- you can be the judge of that. A Linux smartphone that worked 80-90% as well as the Linux desktop would be usable as a daily driver for me. That's at the point where I would feel comfortable getting rid of my Android phone.
Which distros are your parents and nieces running? Every time I try to find the ‘user friendliest’ Linux, there’s just too much outdated and/or bad info out there.
Both on Ubuntu, but Mint, etc... would probably be fine as well.
I personally wouldn't run Ubuntu for myself, I think it falls into some of the same traps as desktops like Windows where I don't really have complete insight into what packages are running. I run Arch & Manjaro on my own computers. But I'm not the target demographic for distros like Ubuntu.
The big things when I'm setting up a computer for someone else are:
- the distro should be popular enough that software/advice is available for it.
- it should run some kind of user friendly desktop environment (Gnome, etc...)
- it should be stable enough that it's not going to randomly break for them (so I put people on Ubuntu LTS releases, none of these people need the latest and greatest versions of every software package). I do not want their computer to break when I'm not around.
Aside from that, I don't think the distro matters too much, and I think there are a lot of distros that fulfill the above criteria. The big strength of Linux for less technical people is that you need one technical person to set it up once, and then you don't really need to touch it afterwards.
Anecdotal, but over the past few years I've debugged more random Windows issues for people than Linux issues (where random in this case means "I woke up today and my computer didn't work"). I've been hearing multiple issues from people where their Windows laptops just have graphics drivers that stop working one day, or where the HDMI port suddenly doesn't output anything. If I'm handling support for someone else, I basically never want to get a call like that, and I never want to try and debug it remotely.
So Linux means that those calls mostly just go away. I only need to worry about their hardware once. I think my nieces have had maybe one driver issue since I installed their computers -- and they're actively installing proprietary software like Zoom for their schoolwork. My parents never install anything, so a Linux install for them is basically just set it and forget it.
I personally wouldn't run Ubuntu for myself, I think it falls into some of the same traps as desktops like Windows where I don't really have complete insight into what packages are running. I run Arch & Manjaro on my own computers. But I'm not the target demographic for distros like Ubuntu.
The big things when I'm setting up a computer for someone else are:
- the distro should be popular enough that software/advice is available for it.
- it should run some kind of user friendly desktop environment (Gnome, etc...)
- it should be stable enough that it's not going to randomly break for them (so I put people on Ubuntu LTS releases, none of these people need the latest and greatest versions of every software package). I do not want their computer to break when I'm not around.
Aside from that, I don't think the distro matters too much, and I think there are a lot of distros that fulfill the above criteria. The big strength of Linux for less technical people is that you need one technical person to set it up once, and then you don't really need to touch it afterwards.
Anecdotal, but over the past few years I've debugged more random Windows issues for people than Linux issues (where random in this case means "I woke up today and my computer didn't work"). I've been hearing multiple issues from people where their Windows laptops just have graphics drivers that stop working one day, or where the HDMI port suddenly doesn't output anything. If I'm handling support for someone else, I basically never want to get a call like that, and I never want to try and debug it remotely.
So Linux means that those calls mostly just go away. I only need to worry about their hardware once. I think my nieces have had maybe one driver issue since I installed their computers -- and they're actively installing proprietary software like Zoom for their schoolwork. My parents never install anything, so a Linux install for them is basically just set it and forget it.
Not the parent but anyway: my completely tech-illiterare parents have been using Antergos (which is based on Arch, and with Cinnamon) now for several years without any issues. They use only browser and email most of the time, but it's nice to have a always up to date system even though it does not matter to them.
I consider user friendliness mostly just a buzzword in linux world these days. Almost everything works out of the box and if not you still need specific knowledge and/or help (and willingness to google error messages) to solve the issue no matter what distro you choose. If you have some special hardware or needs then some distros are better and easier to use but that's another story.
Antergos is what I recommend these days to beginners since it's easy and simultaneously offers most (all) of the benefits of Arch. Modern rolling release distros in general are nothing to be scared of.
I consider user friendliness mostly just a buzzword in linux world these days. Almost everything works out of the box and if not you still need specific knowledge and/or help (and willingness to google error messages) to solve the issue no matter what distro you choose. If you have some special hardware or needs then some distros are better and easier to use but that's another story.
Antergos is what I recommend these days to beginners since it's easy and simultaneously offers most (all) of the benefits of Arch. Modern rolling release distros in general are nothing to be scared of.
I've set up Lubuntu (performance reasons) for an old laptop for a completely non-tech person and Ubuntu on a newer laptop for a rather non-tech person. Both have no problems.
Most of the work is done in the browser/libre office and the rest doesn't matter (wifi works out of the box and has a GUI, you don't really need anything else).
Most of the work is done in the browser/libre office and the rest doesn't matter (wifi works out of the box and has a GUI, you don't really need anything else).
Not PP, but my parents have been using Kubuntu LTS exclusively since 2009 and I'm thinking about moving them to Debian stable + KDE within the next three years.
They aren't wandering much, though, so as long as the OS doesn't get in their way, they are happy.
They aren't wandering much, though, so as long as the OS doesn't get in their way, they are happy.
Not OP, but for my relatives I am using Debian stable with KDE or XFCE, depending on the computer specs. It's been rock-solid for years without my involvement.
not parent commenter but as someone who also has casual user family members on Linux - Ubuntu on a ThinkPad x220 is what I've set them up with.
Mint or Manjaro
> 90% of it doesn't work
Sure, but 50% of what a smartphone does are anti-features anyhow. Maybe having to drop to CLI a few times a day is better than being spied on, for some people.
Sure, but 50% of what a smartphone does are anti-features anyhow. Maybe having to drop to CLI a few times a day is better than being spied on, for some people.
A smartphone by its nature is a surveillance device no matter what operating system is on it. As long as the cellular radio is on and you are connecting to towers, your location is being tracked.
That's why Pinephone and Librem 5 have the killswitches.
You mean airplane mode? I think most phones can selectively turn off the cellular, wifi, and bluetooth radios.
No, I mean hardware killswitches.
https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-h...
https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#Killswitch_confi...
https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-h...
https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#Killswitch_confi...
Or even just writing shell scripts. Writing a whole android application for what would be a 10 line python script is a pain that I don't even want to think about.
I wouldn't call what smartphones do "spying". But if you're already at a place where you consider these devices adversaries, then sure, cutting off your nose to spite your face is the right move.
The whole point of this device is that more people will have access to a real working system and they can improve the software ecosystem. This is how these devices can move from "toys" into real alternatives to Google and Apple products.
Since I've bought the Surface Pro X, I can't go back to laptops with fans and poor battery life. The hardware is great.
But Windows is still bad. It can't even display the good clock, as an example of inacceptable bugs.
If I could find the same tablet-laptop format, with ubuntu support, that would be perfect, well until Android gets proper desktop support.
Wireless Dex by Samsung is very promising, but the perfect portbale monitor isn't there yet.
But Windows is still bad. It can't even display the good clock, as an example of inacceptable bugs.
If I could find the same tablet-laptop format, with ubuntu support, that would be perfect, well until Android gets proper desktop support.
Wireless Dex by Samsung is very promising, but the perfect portbale monitor isn't there yet.
Yeah, I've been keeping an eye on USB4 and WiFi 6E - and avoiding new devices for the time being - for this exact reason. My dream setup involves a litany of dumb displays in different form factors - VR, tablet, desktop, or whatever else - that I can power from one primary device, rather than buying a slew of discrete systems that'll be compromised on spec in order to accommodate larger screens etc. [1] But the I/O for that won't quite be there until sometime next year.
Add to the mix GKIs; AOSP's recent ability to boot from mainline; and the ensuing implication that all of these new adaptive shells being developed rn for the PinePhone could be reused on an Android device [2]; and the thought of 2021 has me salivating.
[1] Mostly, anyway. Some stuff would still be purpose-built, but realistically the main limiting factor for my phone as a daily driver at this point is the form factor.
[2] Assuming bootloader unlock, at least until we see how DSUs play out.
Add to the mix GKIs; AOSP's recent ability to boot from mainline; and the ensuing implication that all of these new adaptive shells being developed rn for the PinePhone could be reused on an Android device [2]; and the thought of 2021 has me salivating.
[1] Mostly, anyway. Some stuff would still be purpose-built, but realistically the main limiting factor for my phone as a daily driver at this point is the form factor.
[2] Assuming bootloader unlock, at least until we see how DSUs play out.
fwiw, I've been using RDP quite productively on my anemic Thinkpad to remote into my desktop computer which is spec'd for deep learning tasks. The latency is great on my local network, and fine over ZeroTier.
How involved of a setup is RDP if most of your systems aren't Windows? I haven't fallen far down the rabbit hole of remote device management, outside of some basic familiarity with SSH. (One particular use case I've been itching to try, but have no idea where to start, is using one system as a secondary display for another. Can an RDP session do this, or is it limited strictly to mirroring?)
Incidentally ZeroTier is new to me, and an interesting rabbit hole in itself (along with the BSL, which is also a first-time read) since I'm in a similar spot with VPNs.
Incidentally ZeroTier is new to me, and an interesting rabbit hole in itself (along with the BSL, which is also a first-time read) since I'm in a similar spot with VPNs.
ZeroTier is a breeze to setup. I'd like to use WireGuard, but it wasn't immediately obvious how I'd achieve a "bridged lan" setup. I had used SoftEther for some time but my configuration was brittle.
I RDP into my Windows desktop from my laptop running Ubuntu and my iPhone without trouble. I use Remmina on Ubuntu[0], and the Microsoft RDP app [1] on iOS.
Before this I was fiddling with TightVNC and a reverse SSH'ing from Window, but ultimately RDP through ZeroTier was (surprisingly) the easiest and most stable way I acheived.
[0] https://remmina.org/
[1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/remote-desktop-mobile/id714464...
I RDP into my Windows desktop from my laptop running Ubuntu and my iPhone without trouble. I use Remmina on Ubuntu[0], and the Microsoft RDP app [1] on iOS.
Before this I was fiddling with TightVNC and a reverse SSH'ing from Window, but ultimately RDP through ZeroTier was (surprisingly) the easiest and most stable way I acheived.
[0] https://remmina.org/
[1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/remote-desktop-mobile/id714464...
> If I could find the same tablet-laptop format, with ubuntu support, that would be perfect, well until Android gets proper desktop support.
Fedora runs quite well on lots of 2-in-1 pc's (e.g. tablet form factor plus detachable keyboard) these days. I've not really tried Ubuntu, but the hardware tends to be a lot fiddlier than typical laptops or desktops and Fedora has better support for it than Debian-derived distros in my experience. And the GNOME desktop from Fedora works quite well as a "pro" tablet environment.
Fedora runs quite well on lots of 2-in-1 pc's (e.g. tablet form factor plus detachable keyboard) these days. I've not really tried Ubuntu, but the hardware tends to be a lot fiddlier than typical laptops or desktops and Fedora has better support for it than Debian-derived distros in my experience. And the GNOME desktop from Fedora works quite well as a "pro" tablet environment.
How is Linux support nowadays? It has an UEFI so a kernel should boot, but last time I checked there were lots of driver issues.
https://github.com/aarch64-laptops/build is where the instructions to run Linux on Windows/arm64 devices. Note however that the Pro X isn't quite supported yet.
What's the clock issue you're having?
My Surface Pro X currently displays 14:31.
I'm in France, it's 13:27. I'm confused about how one can mess so much with this basic feature. It's not even a timezone issue !
I'm in France, it's 13:27. I'm confused about how one can mess so much with this basic feature. It's not even a timezone issue !
Are you dual booting perhaps? I had this issue on my desktop where linux would display the proper time, but windows would be an hour off no matter what I did. It turns out linux wrote the time it got over NTP to the hardware clock as UTC(the correct way). Windows would then read the hw clock but interpret it as UTC+1(my timezone). Here the relevant archwiki entry: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/System_time#UTC_in_Wind...
Ordering my P64 Pro soon. Switching from CrOS. And if all goes well I would consider phone as well. To have as a second device for secure comms with admin hosts ;)
In case you're looking for an OS for the P64 Pro: https://blog.elementary.io/elementary-os-on-pinebook-pro/
>For now, though, the kernel is just built into the image at build time and so does not currently receive updates.
Ah, that's disappointing but still a step towards official support. Hopefully it will reach a state good enough to become an option. I'd get a Pinebook Pro just for that OS.
Has anyone else had issues with Pine64 shipping phones or laptops recently?
I placed an order July 31 and still don't have shipment information for a PineBook Pro laptop. Support hasn't gotten back to me with any dates for 5 days now.
I placed an order July 31 and still don't have shipment information for a PineBook Pro laptop. Support hasn't gotten back to me with any dates for 5 days now.
The update specifically talks about why the PBP is delayed. Pine64 is a small team, annoying them with requests for ship dates tends to be pointless: They post publicly when shipments go out.
Shipment page [0] says that the current batch update was slated for September 11th. I haven't gotten an update from the batch before that one.
I appreciate the fact that they are a small team. It just seems odd that the next shipment has been planned and I haven't heard anything on the shipment before that one.
0: https://www.pine64.org/shipping/
I appreciate the fact that they are a small team. It just seems odd that the next shipment has been planned and I haven't heard anything on the shipment before that one.
0: https://www.pine64.org/shipping/
Really looking forward to that one, it seems like a good contender to the TS80/TS100 irons but more open and so on.
It should be due for release around end of September, so ... fingers crossed. :)