Black Screen After MacBook Pro Update to macOS Big Sur(discussions.apple.com)
discussions.apple.com
Black Screen After MacBook Pro Update to macOS Big Sur
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252040614
306 comments
> I've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a mac" to "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works"
I got bad news for ya: I just bought a new Yoga a month ago and it is just as bad if not worse.
* Animated ads in the start menu tiles
* I've had to upgraded and restart almost every other day for 4 weeks
* there are ads that keep reapparing in the tiles on update
* there are constant popus reminding me to log in to my windows account (or problems that I can't log in because I HAVEN'T)
* nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
* MSoft ads popping up in the lower-right corner.
* Also, day one: tried installing some LabView software and BSOD (well, the new pretty color blue they use and the high-res warning).
* Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds (I believe it is phoning home the way macOS does, not sure).
Win10 now looks and feels like an annoying clickbait website. Once macOS includes ads, it'll be an equally appalling UX.
The only respite I get are logging into AWS compute instances or my Ubuntu and FreeBSD boxes. They can't take away my BASH CLI.
EDIT: I'm getting a lot of "it never happened to me." Yes, I'm sure some of you haven't seen this. I'm jealous.
Meanwhile on my new MacBook PRO 2019:
* Fans randomly turn on with nothing running and `powermetrics` has the fan at 3200 RPM and cpu temp of ... 40C? I literally have to reboot to get them to turn off. I walked into my office one morning and apparently the fans had been running all night with no apps loaded and nothing using considerable power.
* Only some USB-C ports work with my belkin Gigabit adapter. I had to experiment with where-to-plug-what to get it to work. Apparently all USB-C ports on it are NOT the same. Grrr.
* Gigabit adapter never goes to sleep, stays warm when plugged in
* The apple display adpater port + USB-A + power jack periodically drops the screen, and sometimes when I log in I have to open my laptop (I stay docked), wait for the video to mirror, then close my laptop and wait for it to switch to the external monitor.
* Too many Catalina updates this year! But they are faster than my Win10 box.
I got bad news for ya: I just bought a new Yoga a month ago and it is just as bad if not worse.
* Animated ads in the start menu tiles
* I've had to upgraded and restart almost every other day for 4 weeks
* there are ads that keep reapparing in the tiles on update
* there are constant popus reminding me to log in to my windows account (or problems that I can't log in because I HAVEN'T)
* nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
* MSoft ads popping up in the lower-right corner.
* Also, day one: tried installing some LabView software and BSOD (well, the new pretty color blue they use and the high-res warning).
* Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds (I believe it is phoning home the way macOS does, not sure).
Win10 now looks and feels like an annoying clickbait website. Once macOS includes ads, it'll be an equally appalling UX.
The only respite I get are logging into AWS compute instances or my Ubuntu and FreeBSD boxes. They can't take away my BASH CLI.
EDIT: I'm getting a lot of "it never happened to me." Yes, I'm sure some of you haven't seen this. I'm jealous.
Meanwhile on my new MacBook PRO 2019:
* Fans randomly turn on with nothing running and `powermetrics` has the fan at 3200 RPM and cpu temp of ... 40C? I literally have to reboot to get them to turn off. I walked into my office one morning and apparently the fans had been running all night with no apps loaded and nothing using considerable power.
* Only some USB-C ports work with my belkin Gigabit adapter. I had to experiment with where-to-plug-what to get it to work. Apparently all USB-C ports on it are NOT the same. Grrr.
* Gigabit adapter never goes to sleep, stays warm when plugged in
* The apple display adpater port + USB-A + power jack periodically drops the screen, and sometimes when I log in I have to open my laptop (I stay docked), wait for the video to mirror, then close my laptop and wait for it to switch to the external monitor.
* Too many Catalina updates this year! But they are faster than my Win10 box.
As a counter-point, having switched to Windows 10 on a custom built machine a month ago as well, from Arch Linux:
> Animated ads in the start menu tiles
I wouldn't know, I removed the default tiles and I'm just using stuff I manually pinned.
> I've had to upgraded and restart almost every other day for 4 weeks
My uptime currently is 7 days, last reboot was me wanting to manually upgrade to 20H2. YMMV.
> There are ads that keep reapparing in the tiles on update
Hasn't happened to me.
> there are constant popus reminding me to log in to my windows account
I'm using a local account, I don't get any popup to log in using my Microsoft account.
> nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
How? I've never seen this in my life. I'm running an NVIDIA card.
> MSoft ads popping up in the lower-right corner
I think I got the "you should upgrade to New Edge" popup once, doesn't appear anymore because I did (I wanted to try it out)
> Also, day one: tried installing some LabView software and BSOD
No BSOD yet, but YMMV, drivers can vary in quality.
> Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds
I wouldn't know. I've got 64 GB of RAM and a fast NVMe. Nothing loads in more than one second from cold start for me.
--
Either brand PC are loaded with additional crap (of course I ran the O&O Shut Up 10 thing just after first installation) or my experience is much nicer than I've read on this forum.
> Animated ads in the start menu tiles
I wouldn't know, I removed the default tiles and I'm just using stuff I manually pinned.
> I've had to upgraded and restart almost every other day for 4 weeks
My uptime currently is 7 days, last reboot was me wanting to manually upgrade to 20H2. YMMV.
> There are ads that keep reapparing in the tiles on update
Hasn't happened to me.
> there are constant popus reminding me to log in to my windows account
I'm using a local account, I don't get any popup to log in using my Microsoft account.
> nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
How? I've never seen this in my life. I'm running an NVIDIA card.
> MSoft ads popping up in the lower-right corner
I think I got the "you should upgrade to New Edge" popup once, doesn't appear anymore because I did (I wanted to try it out)
> Also, day one: tried installing some LabView software and BSOD
No BSOD yet, but YMMV, drivers can vary in quality.
> Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds
I wouldn't know. I've got 64 GB of RAM and a fast NVMe. Nothing loads in more than one second from cold start for me.
--
Either brand PC are loaded with additional crap (of course I ran the O&O Shut Up 10 thing just after first installation) or my experience is much nicer than I've read on this forum.
> I removed the default tiles and I'm just using stuff I manually pinned
Yeah IIRC they can also resize the start menu manually if they don't want any tiles.
Yeah IIRC they can also resize the start menu manually if they don't want any tiles.
This have been my experience also. It takes a little bit to get the configuration where I like it, but it's solid after that. Especially if you have top tier hardware (which you can actually upgrade, which is also nice).
I switched from Lenovo to Acer because the Lenovo crapware had become horrific. Broke my heart because I'd been a longtime ThinkPad user, but going from a solid X220 to a P1 that failed in two years, to a crapware-laden Yoga that had multiple failures in the first 6 months just killed any love I had for the brand.
Acer's hardware is inferior in every measurable spec but hasn't failed me yet, and that's frankly all I want from it. It works and it stays out of my way.
Acer's hardware is inferior in every measurable spec but hasn't failed me yet, and that's frankly all I want from it. It works and it stays out of my way.
Nvidia advertises it's new drivers in a pop-up with "GForce Experience" or whatever. You have to have an account with Nvidia (???!!?) to download this advertised driver.
Geforce experience is entirely superfluous, really. I'd John st deinstall it. You can adjust almost everything from the control panel anyway
I was just explaining what the other guy was talking about. My Windows 10 experience has been pretty good.
Once macOS includes ads
Considering that iOS already includes ads, it may not be that long.
- Apple Arcade ad right there at the top of the Settings app: "Apple Arcade 3 Months Available Free >"
- Very often when I just want to listen to the music I purchased, I get a full-screen ad for Apple Music that takes about 20 seconds to load, and cannot be dismissed until it does.
These two things are enough to get me to move to something else, if there was a viable alternative for my workflow. There isn't yet, but I'm keeping an eye out.
Considering that iOS already includes ads, it may not be that long.
- Apple Arcade ad right there at the top of the Settings app: "Apple Arcade 3 Months Available Free >"
- Very often when I just want to listen to the music I purchased, I get a full-screen ad for Apple Music that takes about 20 seconds to load, and cannot be dismissed until it does.
These two things are enough to get me to move to something else, if there was a viable alternative for my workflow. There isn't yet, but I'm keeping an eye out.
Ugh, you're right. I forgot.
There are only really two places to move to: Mac or Win.
If you're nothing but a code jockey, then sure, *nux/bsd can replace your day-to-day, but for the rest of us, we need one of the two, usually with MSOffice. (I work with Google, even they aren't 100% google docs internally!)
There are only really two places to move to: Mac or Win.
If you're nothing but a code jockey, then sure, *nux/bsd can replace your day-to-day, but for the rest of us, we need one of the two, usually with MSOffice. (I work with Google, even they aren't 100% google docs internally!)
Yes Linux is nice. I installed Linux Mint on a laptop from 2011 a week ago, and it worked fine, like a new computer (I was a bit surprised)
Plus a maths programming language. No games though
Plus a maths programming language. No games though
I haven't had any problems with my new ProBook, but it also came with Windows 10 Pro. You shouldn't need a $60 upgrade just to be respected by your operating system. Microsoft is trying to live half in the service model and half in the product model. They should drop the distinction and give everyone "pro" features, all of which are basic features in any desktop-focused Linux install.
> * nVidia ads popping up in the lower-right corner
Sounds like you have Nvidia's "Geforce Experience"(or whatever it's called) installed. Good thing is you probably don't need it.
> * Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds (I believe it is phoning home the way macOS does, not sure).
Huh, that is weird. Have you tried turning off this phoning home feature? I think it's called SmartScreen on Windows 10 and you can disable it somewhere. But Microsoft are really the masters of UI dark patterns when it comes to this; they let you disable most of this crap during install but only via near invisible buttons to access these options.
But I agree Windows 10 is insanely frustrating at times. It's what ultimately gave me the last push I needed to switch to Linux.
Sounds like you have Nvidia's "Geforce Experience"(or whatever it's called) installed. Good thing is you probably don't need it.
> * Starting a new app takes about 15~30 seconds (I believe it is phoning home the way macOS does, not sure).
Huh, that is weird. Have you tried turning off this phoning home feature? I think it's called SmartScreen on Windows 10 and you can disable it somewhere. But Microsoft are really the masters of UI dark patterns when it comes to this; they let you disable most of this crap during install but only via near invisible buttons to access these options.
But I agree Windows 10 is insanely frustrating at times. It's what ultimately gave me the last push I needed to switch to Linux.
> * Fans randomly turn on with nothing running and `powermetrics` has the fan at 3200 RPM and cpu temp of ... 40C? I literally have to reboot to get them to turn off. I walked into my office one morning and apparently the fans had been running all night with no apps loaded and nothing using considerable power.
Are you plugging your power cable into the left side of your mac? I had the same issue, and plugging it into a right-sided port fixed it. It sounds like a joke, but it's real.
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
Are you plugging your power cable into the left side of your mac? I had the same issue, and plugging it into a right-sided port fixed it. It sounds like a joke, but it's real.
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...
You're getting downvoted but these are very legitimate issues. I still chose Windows but I was really, really tempted to ditch it all when they pulled off that forced Edge installation stunt a couple of months ago.
Oh, that's really interesting.
I have a W10 that I run as a second machine. Updates are annoying (but they don't cross the line of being "terrible" for me).
The ads are something that I haven't noticed. I wonder if that's manufacturer specific. I know I'm running a clean, vanilla install on my setup.
I have a W10 that I run as a second machine. Updates are annoying (but they don't cross the line of being "terrible" for me).
The ads are something that I haven't noticed. I wonder if that's manufacturer specific. I know I'm running a clean, vanilla install on my setup.
Yes, similar to Android, many manufacturers customize their Windows installs, and that increasingly means random ads in your system UI. Switching from Mac to Windows - especially manufacturer installs of Windows - over privacy or stability issues is jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
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I always see people complaining about updates, but I haven't been forced to update for months. Is this some machine-specific configuration or is Windows Insiders' update model different?
"Win10 now looks and feels like an annoying clickbait website."
Wow you succinctly captured how using Windows feels for me on a day to day basis vs Mac.
Wow you succinctly captured how using Windows feels for me on a day to day basis vs Mac.
Don’t forget Apple’s revocation of an API to access OS level request headers (re: Little Snitch).
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/15/apple-explains-addresses-mac-...
This was Apple’s last straw in my book. Yes they’re backtracking, but this wasn’t some extra miscellaneous data someone forgot to remove. Further it took a hail storm of PR (in the dev world) to push change.
Moving to Linux ecosystem, despite loosing the rather smooth Apple ecosystems
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/15/apple-explains-addresses-mac-...
This was Apple’s last straw in my book. Yes they’re backtracking, but this wasn’t some extra miscellaneous data someone forgot to remove. Further it took a hail storm of PR (in the dev world) to push change.
Moving to Linux ecosystem, despite loosing the rather smooth Apple ecosystems
They are backtracking on the little snitch boondoggle? I hadn’t heard that.
They're improving the situation on developer certificate revocation checks, but they do still exempt their own apps from the app-specific content filter and VPN extensions, so you won't be able to block those with Little Snitch or similar firewalls.
System-wide VPNs should still tunnel everything, so it's not as much of a security disaster as it sounded like, but I still don't like that. It's my computer, I should be able to firewall whatever I want.
System-wide VPNs should still tunnel everything, so it's not as much of a security disaster as it sounded like, but I still don't like that. It's my computer, I should be able to firewall whatever I want.
"System-wide VPNs should still tunnel everything, so it's not as much of a security disaster as it sounded like, but I still don't like that. It's my computer, I should be able to firewall whatever I want."
I always use a "slug"[1] to (re)inforce a VPN.
It's extremely difficult to go around it - certainly not by accident ...
[1] http://www.kozubik.com/pub/NetworkSlug/tip.html
I always use a "slug"[1] to (re)inforce a VPN.
It's extremely difficult to go around it - certainly not by accident ...
[1] http://www.kozubik.com/pub/NetworkSlug/tip.html
If we're talking about laptops here, this means an additional piece of hardware. If you're carrying around an additional piece of network filtering hardware, you might as well just run the VPN client on that, too.
I'm looking into dual-wifi travel routers that will run OpenWRT (and thus give me root) and can do WireGuard at reasonable speeds. I've been meaning to do it for iOS devices anyway (these things phone home constantly, with no way to turn it off) and now it's going to be needed on Apple Silicon macs, too.
I'm looking into dual-wifi travel routers that will run OpenWRT (and thus give me root) and can do WireGuard at reasonable speeds. I've been meaning to do it for iOS devices anyway (these things phone home constantly, with no way to turn it off) and now it's going to be needed on Apple Silicon macs, too.
"If you're carrying around an additional piece of network filtering hardware, you might as well just run the VPN client on that, too."
Perhaps - and of course that point is well taken.
However, if the hardware device is complicated enough to actually run the VPN then you are back to wondering how it can fail, who can attack it and how things can accidently go around it.
Not so with a slug - it is a dead simple bridge that can't be seen on the network.
Perhaps - and of course that point is well taken.
However, if the hardware device is complicated enough to actually run the VPN then you are back to wondering how it can fail, who can attack it and how things can accidently go around it.
Not so with a slug - it is a dead simple bridge that can't be seen on the network.
I assume you mean wired, then? So, for the usual connection of laptop on wifi, there would be an ethernet dongle, to the slug, to a wifi client bridge? Three external devices?
If you meant wifi, do you have configs available or hardware you recommend?
If you meant wifi, do you have configs available or hardware you recommend?
> I've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a mac" to "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works"
I'm still on Mojave on my 2013 MacBook Pro.
The main reason I'd still consider a Mac for my next machine is because there's no other manufacturer that seems to take their trackpads seriously.
Why is there no real competition for Apple's trackpads?
I'm still on Mojave on my 2013 MacBook Pro.
The main reason I'd still consider a Mac for my next machine is because there's no other manufacturer that seems to take their trackpads seriously.
Why is there no real competition for Apple's trackpads?
Same for me, the trackpad is the main reason I don't want to switch away from Macbooks. It's just unreasonably good. I fear that the amount of software and hardware integration required to get to this level is so high the we will not see it anywhere else anytime soon. But I'd like to be wrong.
Some laptop manufactures want to be as successful as Apple and copying some of Macbook's features, such as soldered RAM, CPU and hard drive. But for some reason it just doesn't help. Instead, they should invest in display and trackpad and everyone will forgive such downsides as: extra thickness; maybe less "industrial" design; ports other than USB-C; keyboard keys that don't stick
There are efforts to make libinput compete, but maybe a majority of GNU users just don’t care because keyboard-centric workflows (using tiling WMs, etc. so you never have to leave the home row) just feel so much more efficient and ergonomic.
It's not quite there, but I find my Lenovo trackpad to be quite excellent. Probably within 5% of Apple's, which is good enough for me.
I've been happily using Microsoft Surface Go for the past 6 months. No complaints (about the hardware - software is another issue, though TBH what I miss the most is a good command line & package manager).
I’m not on Windows but whenever I have to be I use Chocolatey to manage installations.
Wsl ubuntu and hyper terminal for nix, then chocolatey for windows apps should have you covered
Is WSL not supported?
WSL works, but it's not nearly as integrated as a native CLI in MacOSx. For example, accessing Windows files from WSL is tricky, the other direction as well. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely an improvement over what we had before, but the overhead is such that I still primarily seek out native Windows executables (was just installing JVM and Bison (parser generator) the other day).
My approach is to simply organize work so that anything development oriented is kept in the WSL home dir and keep docs and PowerPoints in the Windows Documents dir which covers 95% of my use cases. The new Windows terminal is also pretty cool. I prefer this because I've sometimes run into weird assumptions that Unix utils make in a Windows environment based on how they've been compiled (eg. If they're built using Cygwin)
> The main reason I'd still consider a Mac for my next machine
Well you're in for a surprise once they render your Mac completely obsolete in a few years.
Well you're in for a surprise once they render your Mac completely obsolete in a few years.
> List of Safari Updates - Just, why? Why is that attached to an OS release?
Since a few versions, you can actually get the latest safari on the previous OS. So even if safari is the one thing you want you don’t need the update.
> In particular, messages will take up 20%+ of the release content to essentially highlight the ability to put emojis and faces on everything.
Messages in particular probably needs the new OS due to catalyst updates.
Since a few versions, you can actually get the latest safari on the previous OS. So even if safari is the one thing you want you don’t need the update.
> In particular, messages will take up 20%+ of the release content to essentially highlight the ability to put emojis and faces on everything.
Messages in particular probably needs the new OS due to catalyst updates.
> It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works"
I'm on Linux now. It randomly breaks but so does Mac so I might as well have a tiling window manager.
I'm on Linux now. It randomly breaks but so does Mac so I might as well have a tiling window manager.
Yep. My 2015 Macbook (personal, not the one I use for coding) is still running 10.12.
I don't really want to update it, but am going to have to, as it no longer receives security updates from Apple, as you say won't run latest XCode, which also homebrew complains about and says it can't support my OS, and increasingly software I want to install won't cause the OS is too old.
But there are zero features of an OS update i want. I am terrified of what's going to happen when I update.
However, i still far prefer MacOS UX to Windows, myself. I just a quite fine with it on 10.12.
And my 2015 Macbook is still running fine, by the way, have no need of an upgrade for more CPU or RAM or anything like that.
I don't really want to update it, but am going to have to, as it no longer receives security updates from Apple, as you say won't run latest XCode, which also homebrew complains about and says it can't support my OS, and increasingly software I want to install won't cause the OS is too old.
But there are zero features of an OS update i want. I am terrified of what's going to happen when I update.
However, i still far prefer MacOS UX to Windows, myself. I just a quite fine with it on 10.12.
And my 2015 Macbook is still running fine, by the way, have no need of an upgrade for more CPU or RAM or anything like that.
I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have a mid 2014 macbook running 10.12.6. It's way better than my work laptop.
The work laptop is a maxed 15" macbook a year or two old, and it can barley handle video conferences, let alone bazel compilations or debugging in vscode. Keyboard and touchbar are a mess as expected. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I'm going go straight to a Linux/windows desktop, since I'm working from home anyways. More ram, cpu and a real modern video card is basically what I want, and I won't get that with a mac.
The work laptop is a maxed 15" macbook a year or two old, and it can barley handle video conferences, let alone bazel compilations or debugging in vscode. Keyboard and touchbar are a mess as expected. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I'm going go straight to a Linux/windows desktop, since I'm working from home anyways. More ram, cpu and a real modern video card is basically what I want, and I won't get that with a mac.
I have a late 2013 macbook running 10.14.6 and it's quite pleasant.
I have a mid 2012 MBP running 10.14.6 without any issues. I was thinking about building a desktop to run Ubuntu Studio, but was worried about the trackpad and the complete loss of portability. Now I'm seriously looking at the MBA with the M1 processor spec'd to 16Gb RAM and 512Gb storage.
>The work laptop is a maxed 15" macbook a year or two old, and it can barley handle video conferences, let alone bazel compilations
I was in a similar boat. Top spec macPro, all the bells and whistles...and the machine ground to a halt trying to compile anything. Rust was particularly bad, but the worst was trying to compile modules for ONOS, which needed some custom Bazel massaging to begin with. First time in my life the "compiling!" xkcd strip[0] was relevant to my life.
[0] https://xkcd.com/303/
I was in a similar boat. Top spec macPro, all the bells and whistles...and the machine ground to a halt trying to compile anything. Rust was particularly bad, but the worst was trying to compile modules for ONOS, which needed some custom Bazel massaging to begin with. First time in my life the "compiling!" xkcd strip[0] was relevant to my life.
[0] https://xkcd.com/303/
When the SSD finally craps out you can get them swapped out via 3rd party repair.
Assuming it's an Air or Pro, a better option would be to buy any NVMe drive, and an adapter.
Here's a forum thread for more info: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/upgrading-2013-2014-mac...
Here's a forum thread for more info: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/upgrading-2013-2014-mac...
Imagine being a mobile developer. Unless you develop exclusively for Android, you're FORCED to own an iOS device.
I'm seriously considering changing my daily driver to a Linux machine, and getting a mac mini strictly for running iOS builds.
Would need to do some work to kick off a build from the Linux machine which deploys the app to the iOS device, but it should totally be possible with xcodebuild command line tool...
I think the general workflow would be:
1) Develop on the Linux machine in Flutter or React Native. 2) Primary day-to-day / hour-to-hour testing device = Pixel. 3) When ready to build on iOS device, network request is made to the Mac Mini, which then kicks of xcodebuild to deploy the build to the device.
Would need some sort of fast file replication tool. And debugging would be a chore.
Uhg.
I'm seriously considering changing my daily driver to a Linux machine, and getting a mac mini strictly for running iOS builds.
Would need to do some work to kick off a build from the Linux machine which deploys the app to the iOS device, but it should totally be possible with xcodebuild command line tool...
I think the general workflow would be:
1) Develop on the Linux machine in Flutter or React Native. 2) Primary day-to-day / hour-to-hour testing device = Pixel. 3) When ready to build on iOS device, network request is made to the Mac Mini, which then kicks of xcodebuild to deploy the build to the device.
Would need some sort of fast file replication tool. And debugging would be a chore.
Uhg.
Yup, this is pretty much how I'm doing cross-platform development - except for the automation-part.
I've been strongly considering getting a MacBook as daily driver after years of Ubuntu due to this inconvenience. But perhaps that's to be preferred over having to deal with MacOS every day.
Just don't update until you have to, or at least give it 3-6 months to let every other sucker find all the early bugs for you. Same goes with any operating system, not just OSX. You just don't need the "Oooh shiny".
I used to update the Kernel on my Linux installs the moment they released — the kernel itself was usually fine but man I had no end of trouble with downstream software lol
Last year, the Catalina beta broke my motherboard (it corrupted the SMC and my system would only boot into a blinking folder icon). I tried the Big Sur beta this year and it killed the keyboard and trackpad (can still use the power button on the keyboard). I am laying off on new OS releases from now on.
I'm skipping Big Sur for at least a while. I only have a MacBook Pro 13 that I bought earlier this year when they came out with the KB refresh, Intel based. I have it because OSX is fine, but has a great Unix under it, and I can run VMware if I need real Linux or Windows. It's a great tool, I'm in IT. They're durable, solid, and work great. But that Dell XPS is really tempting. My desktops are windows.
The one compelling thing to me is the smart battery management in Big Sur: it won't charge your battery past 80% if you don't need it (based on usage patterns) to protect the battery life. I'm also excited about the seamless switch between all Apple devices for the Airpods Pro, but not everyone owns those
Battery management is in Catalina too JFYI
Replace windows with any Linux distribution and I am in the same boat.
Paying thousands of dollars for a gimped developer experience plus the recent decisions around ‘security’ have been dubious to say the least (Apple granting themselves exceptions around filtering mechanisms in new network extensions APIs)
Paying thousands of dollars for a gimped developer experience plus the recent decisions around ‘security’ have been dubious to say the least (Apple granting themselves exceptions around filtering mechanisms in new network extensions APIs)
>It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works
Selected models maybe. In general- no. Not more reliable, not just works.
Selected models maybe. In general- no. Not more reliable, not just works.
Modern day windows frustrates me just as much, personally. My kingdom for a stable straightforward OS without fiddling... I use Mint these days but even that doesn’t solve my woes fully (and there’s still software I can’t run on it)
So have you heard of Linux by chance? It addresses all of the problems you've listed.
macOS 10.13 gang, checking in.
This might be worth a read as well[1].
1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25104828
1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25104828
Agree with everything with the exception of assuming that Windows updates are anything short of a dumpster fire full of dumpster fires.
Yes I spend more and more time on Ubuntu and it's actually great
Agreed. Ran into an issue this week where the forced upgrade of Edge caused some issues for me[1], but it was impossible to run "legacy" Edge because it was updated via Windows update. Why should we have any choice of the version of the software we're running, right?
[1] I know, I know, why use Edge? Fun fact, Netflix doesn't render at higher than 720p on Firefox/Chrome because of DRM issues.
[1] I know, I know, why use Edge? Fun fact, Netflix doesn't render at higher than 720p on Firefox/Chrome because of DRM issues.
The new Edge's installer does not uninstall the old Edge, it just hides it. On versions of Windows before 20H2 (build 19042), you can bring back the old Edge icons by following these instructions: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-s...
In short:
1. Run this command as an administrator: reg add hklm\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\EdgeUpdate /v Allowsxs /t REG_DWORD /d 1
2. Download and reinstall the new Edge.
Note that Microsoft has said that old Edge will stop getting security updates soon, though I don't know what this actually amounts to as the old Edge's engine remains in Windows for application compatibility even when old Edge is nominally removed.
I'd also suggest that you send feedback to Microsoft about any problems you have with new Edge, using the built-in "Send feedback" tool or Windows' Feedback Hub.
In short:
1. Run this command as an administrator: reg add hklm\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\EdgeUpdate /v Allowsxs /t REG_DWORD /d 1
2. Download and reinstall the new Edge.
Note that Microsoft has said that old Edge will stop getting security updates soon, though I don't know what this actually amounts to as the old Edge's engine remains in Windows for application compatibility even when old Edge is nominally removed.
I'd also suggest that you send feedback to Microsoft about any problems you have with new Edge, using the built-in "Send feedback" tool or Windows' Feedback Hub.
What a great comment. Appreciate it!
Yeah, Windows Update was the main thing that motivated to switch to Linux for daily use. Nothing else presented a big enough pain point to motivate a full switch -- I was mostly happy using Windows and SSHing into Linux to work. I often leave my computer on overnight with the expectation I can pick up whatever I was doing, but Windows Update would force reboot without warning me ahead of time and I'd lose all my stuff. Many times I needed to start my computer and do something right away, but Update decided it needed the next 20 minutes. I remember one particular instance when I needed to shut my laptop down to put in my backback (it was pouring outside) and get to a class, but when I shut down it went into a lengthy update without giving me an option to skip.
On Linux I am rarely if ever compelled to reboot unless I upgrade the kernel and want to use specific features like virtualization. There's just no going back once you get used to this.
On Linux I am rarely if ever compelled to reboot unless I upgrade the kernel and want to use specific features like virtualization. There's just no going back once you get used to this.
'It just works' is not a phrase I've ever seen applied to the Windows 10 update process before.
While bricking updates for Windows are rare, the most infamous Windows update bug deleted all user data.
If you want stability, desktop Linux is now the best out of a bad set of options. If you need more software support, run Windows in a VM where it can't destroy anything important.
While bricking updates for Windows are rare, the most infamous Windows update bug deleted all user data.
If you want stability, desktop Linux is now the best out of a bad set of options. If you need more software support, run Windows in a VM where it can't destroy anything important.
I used that phrase a bit-in jest.
That being said, Windows updates have a bunch of minor issues, but rarely result in these machine breaking issues that OSX has.
That being said, Windows updates have a bunch of minor issues, but rarely result in these machine breaking issues that OSX has.
I had this happen to me on a late 2019 MacBook Pro as well, but dramatically worse: the machine was totally unresponsive, no chimes, no power up, nothing. I tried everything, including the usual PRAM clear and whatever else, but Apple suggested a replacement machine.
Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement, I started tinkering to see what I could do and it turns out that the T2 security chip was totally nuked – the weird version of iOS it runs (BridgeOS) was broken/missing, which means the hardware won’t even power on, POST, or light up the screen to tell you. Without the T2, you don’t have a computer anymore, basically.
Turns out that this chip can be flashed by using a specific set of incantations: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/apple-configurator-2/a...
So, here’s what I had to do:
1. You need another Mac running the exact same build of the OS on the dead machine. I begrudgingly needed to update my Mac Mini to Big Sur to get it to work.
2. Plug a USB-C cable into the front left port of your dead MacBook, fire up Apple configurator on the functional machine and click “Revive.”
3. Wait, hope it works.... but there’s no confirmation so you just have to wait a long time and hope it was long enough, then hold the power button for 30 seconds to see if it’ll turn on.
4. If that doesn’t work (it didn’t), then you should run “restore” which is exactly the same. Wait a long time, hold the power button for 30 seconds and hope. Eventually, in my case, it powered up into internet recovery, and acted as if it were a new Mac. Everything is gone, but it’s at least functional as far as I can tell.
This will ONLY apply to the T2 models, which are not the ones mentioned in the OP, but it seems like a similar issues. These steps at least revived my machine, but it was so obscure that even Apple support didn’t know about this, so ordered a replacement. I can’t be the only one to have run into this, but I’m pretty pissed that I blew two entire days trying to figure out what was going on.
More details on my Twitter: https://twitter.com/ow/status/1328389544119513089?s=21
Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement, I started tinkering to see what I could do and it turns out that the T2 security chip was totally nuked – the weird version of iOS it runs (BridgeOS) was broken/missing, which means the hardware won’t even power on, POST, or light up the screen to tell you. Without the T2, you don’t have a computer anymore, basically.
Turns out that this chip can be flashed by using a specific set of incantations: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/apple-configurator-2/a...
So, here’s what I had to do:
1. You need another Mac running the exact same build of the OS on the dead machine. I begrudgingly needed to update my Mac Mini to Big Sur to get it to work.
2. Plug a USB-C cable into the front left port of your dead MacBook, fire up Apple configurator on the functional machine and click “Revive.”
3. Wait, hope it works.... but there’s no confirmation so you just have to wait a long time and hope it was long enough, then hold the power button for 30 seconds to see if it’ll turn on.
4. If that doesn’t work (it didn’t), then you should run “restore” which is exactly the same. Wait a long time, hold the power button for 30 seconds and hope. Eventually, in my case, it powered up into internet recovery, and acted as if it were a new Mac. Everything is gone, but it’s at least functional as far as I can tell.
This will ONLY apply to the T2 models, which are not the ones mentioned in the OP, but it seems like a similar issues. These steps at least revived my machine, but it was so obscure that even Apple support didn’t know about this, so ordered a replacement. I can’t be the only one to have run into this, but I’m pretty pissed that I blew two entire days trying to figure out what was going on.
More details on my Twitter: https://twitter.com/ow/status/1328389544119513089?s=21
Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple. It used to be it just works, i don't have time to tinker. Now you have to get your hands dirty for no particular reason other than apple wants to revamp everything in order to secure a new milkcow for the next generation. Come back to linux!
As a regular mac and Linux user (I use Linux 80% of the time), I can clearly say it's not about sustaining an attachment.
If I had time, I'd do the same. I'm in this career because I wondered how these things work in the first place. Just because Windows or macOS are closed systems they're not less interesting. They're harder to understand and, sometimes challenge calls.
Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that.
OTOH, every platform has its nice applications. While Darktable is a very nice photo editor and Digikam is a perfect DAM, CameraBag or OmniGraffle doesn't work on Linux. Similarly, many basic functions of KDE's Dolphin (Protocol support, embedded git, etc.) is not present on mac. Similarly my IDE of choice (Eclipse) wasn't working well on macs until Big Sur.
However, while developing applications, Apple's design decisions and inner workings provide some nice insight and inspiration for better experiences and more sensible defaults.
Using diverse set of platforms is mind opening for me. It's important to understand the trade-offs of every one and, all of them are perfect in their own regard.
However, at the end of the day, I'm a FOSS lover and you can't pry my Linux systems from my cold dead hands. macOS on the other hand is just a nice closed system to develop open source stuff for me.
If I had time, I'd do the same. I'm in this career because I wondered how these things work in the first place. Just because Windows or macOS are closed systems they're not less interesting. They're harder to understand and, sometimes challenge calls.
Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that.
OTOH, every platform has its nice applications. While Darktable is a very nice photo editor and Digikam is a perfect DAM, CameraBag or OmniGraffle doesn't work on Linux. Similarly, many basic functions of KDE's Dolphin (Protocol support, embedded git, etc.) is not present on mac. Similarly my IDE of choice (Eclipse) wasn't working well on macs until Big Sur.
However, while developing applications, Apple's design decisions and inner workings provide some nice insight and inspiration for better experiences and more sensible defaults.
Using diverse set of platforms is mind opening for me. It's important to understand the trade-offs of every one and, all of them are perfect in their own regard.
However, at the end of the day, I'm a FOSS lover and you can't pry my Linux systems from my cold dead hands. macOS on the other hand is just a nice closed system to develop open source stuff for me.
> I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side. I have to make sure that it contains no funny devices or memory mappings so, I can't use an on-board peripheral until someone writes a quirk just for that.
There are certified/tested Linux computers available from vendors like HP and Dell. Just buy one of them instead of wasting time researching hardware compatibility only for it to break later with no one to complain to. Some links:
HP Linux Hardware Matrix: https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf Dell Linux Workstations and Laptops: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Ubuntu Desktop Certified Hardware: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop Red Hat Certified Workstations (incl. Laptops): https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search
There are certified/tested Linux computers available from vendors like HP and Dell. Just buy one of them instead of wasting time researching hardware compatibility only for it to break later with no one to complain to. Some links:
HP Linux Hardware Matrix: https://h20195.www2.hp.com/v2/getpdf.aspx/4AA7-6280ENW.pdf Dell Linux Workstations and Laptops: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystem... Ubuntu Desktop Certified Hardware: https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop Red Hat Certified Workstations (incl. Laptops): https://catalog.redhat.com/hardware/workstations/search
Thanks for your answer. I'm aware of these systems (my office workstation is an EliteDesk) however, these systems are not suitable for me for various reasons.
I make staggered updates and these systems are not very receptive for that. I wouldn't want to change my case just to upgrade the motherboard and the CPU. Also, I'm not sure that a small EliteDesk tower can accommodate all my disks (2HDDs plus 2SSDs) neither space, nor power-wise. I also use a PCIe sound card (for sound quality reasons) which needs a PSU connection via floppy connector.
At the end of the day, these systems are very nice as-is, but I need to get them as a package and they're not very flexible. My desktop usage scenario and update path is not very suitable for that.
Last but, not the least; I like to build my own desktop computers.
I make staggered updates and these systems are not very receptive for that. I wouldn't want to change my case just to upgrade the motherboard and the CPU. Also, I'm not sure that a small EliteDesk tower can accommodate all my disks (2HDDs plus 2SSDs) neither space, nor power-wise. I also use a PCIe sound card (for sound quality reasons) which needs a PSU connection via floppy connector.
At the end of the day, these systems are very nice as-is, but I need to get them as a package and they're not very flexible. My desktop usage scenario and update path is not very suitable for that.
Last but, not the least; I like to build my own desktop computers.
This isn't always as straightforward as it might seem. I'm using a Dell Precision laptop shipped with Ubuntu and certified and all that jazz, and it continues to have problems that just don't happen on the Mac side of things. I use both, a "low-end" MBP for "thick client" computing and the Dell as a luggable hypervisor, since I don't have the money to spec a mac out with the kind of specs I need for that.
Even with a recent kernel, it continues to have power management problems, and the intel wifi chipset occasionally just decides to stop working. It's fine, especially given the good price I got, but it's been a hassle, and more than occasionally I wish I'd spent the money on upgrades to the Mac instead.
(And I say this as someone with a libre POWER9 desktop and a pinephone -- I love tinkering and live Linux, but when I'm working for a paycheck I get tired of dealing with Linux's issues)
Even with a recent kernel, it continues to have power management problems, and the intel wifi chipset occasionally just decides to stop working. It's fine, especially given the good price I got, but it's been a hassle, and more than occasionally I wish I'd spent the money on upgrades to the Mac instead.
(And I say this as someone with a libre POWER9 desktop and a pinephone -- I love tinkering and live Linux, but when I'm working for a paycheck I get tired of dealing with Linux's issues)
> Linux is nice, way better when compared to 15 years ago but, it's not perfect. I'm going to buy a new PC in 12 months and I'd need to make some research about hardware compatibility and performance. Especially on the motherboard side.
I've been using Linux exclusively since 2007 and I've never had any motherboard compatibility issues. I think the only thing that may be shaky is wifi, but even that's pretty settled these days now that the hardware is more or less standardized. I'm not doubting your experience, just found that an odd thing to single out.
I've been using Linux exclusively since 2007 and I've never had any motherboard compatibility issues. I think the only thing that may be shaky is wifi, but even that's pretty settled these days now that the hardware is more or less standardized. I'm not doubting your experience, just found that an odd thing to single out.
By 2007, most of the nasty stuff has been sorted out (I met with Linux in 1998, started to use it full time by 2003).
Some things I have experienced (not all hardware related but, notable and crippling):
Some things I have experienced (not all hardware related but, notable and crippling):
- Additional SATA controllers had intermittent connectivity issues with Samsung SpinPoint drives
- Same additional SATA controllers' 2 port models were fine but, same chip's 4 port model was not recognized at all.
- Intel Speedstep was wonky.
- CPUFreqd needed hand tuned scaling profiles for good on-demand scaling.
- Fedora 4 mysteriously tried to redirect all my internal X11 comm via my physical Ethernet card. Needed to add an additional card as a primary network interface to solve desktop latency problems.
- One of my systems was unable to boot any OS installed on the non-GRUB drive. GRUB was unable to fire anything on that disk (regardless of OS brand, model and make)
- My latest system's on board Wi-Fi and BT adapter was unusable for 2 years.
I'm typing this using Linux on a MSI B550 MB I built a few months back. The network and sound drivers did not work out of the box on any version of Linux I tried. Ubuntu install process would not even complete. Pop! did come up, but no sound or network. I borrowed an old USB network adapter and was able to get most everything working once I had access to the internet.
The sound still breaks after every kernel update though as the drivers continue to evolve. I've been running Linux on my desktop for twenty years now, and I couldn't suggest anyone who hasn't to try a Linux on a next-gen motherboard as it is pretty much always a disaster for a year or two.
The sound still breaks after every kernel update though as the drivers continue to evolve. I've been running Linux on my desktop for twenty years now, and I couldn't suggest anyone who hasn't to try a Linux on a next-gen motherboard as it is pretty much always a disaster for a year or two.
Unless you're developing explicitly for iPhone, Windows + WSL may be a good option. I used it at work and then also switched my personal ThinkPad from Ubuntu to Windows + WSL2. You get far more hardware configuration options in the high end (including the ability to run CUDA code directly on your laptop if you're so inclined - useful for development)
The reason I left Linux was having to spend days on incantations to make my sound card or network adapter work.
I got tired of having to figure out what codec incantations I needed to make videos play.
Much of the support was snarky "RTFM" or forum postings from 2007 about different distros.
Every couple years I try it again when people on HN insist it's better now, and within minutes there's a showstopper hardware compatibility issue or something.
I'm scheduled to try it again about a year from now.
I got tired of having to figure out what codec incantations I needed to make videos play.
Much of the support was snarky "RTFM" or forum postings from 2007 about different distros.
Every couple years I try it again when people on HN insist it's better now, and within minutes there's a showstopper hardware compatibility issue or something.
I'm scheduled to try it again about a year from now.
I'm a huge Linux fan and used Linux natively on several laptops for nearly 20 years.
Even with all that experience and care picking good laptops, and even after Ubuntu and Xorg autoconfig made the driver situation much better, I found myself having to: Fix kernel graphics driver bugs (spans of random pixels occasionally drawn on the screen due to something extremely subtle deep in the Intel driver), sound driver bugs, and being annoyed that nothing worked right with Nvidia on one of them (neither Nvidia's driver nor Nouveau worked properly), and debugging unreliable suspend.
Now I run Linux in a VM, and that's been perfect for userspace development. On a Mac, the four-finger swipe switches beautifully between Mac and Linux full-screen desktops, as if neither OS is really in charge. It feels more like running Xen, two OSes side by side, with Apple-quality GUI for switching and organising OSes.
Of course, not so good when the Apple device bricks.
The symptoms people are reporting now are very similar to what I saw when upgrading to Catalina - hours stuck on "about a minute remaining", many reboots and with what looked like glitchy display errors and "starting from scratch" progress bars, leading to a worrying feeling it was stuck in a reboot cycle or just bricked. I was immensely relieved when it eventually finished after hours of doing whatever it was doing, as I didn't have a spare working computer (all my old Linux laptops have broken :-/) And that was after leaving it for nearly a year (I installed Catalina this summer), so the problems should have been "ironed out" by then.
I'm really glad I haven't follow the system notification's prompt to update to Big Sur. From the Catalina experience, I suspect I'd be one of the brickage victims, and I can't afford that right now.
If it were always possible to restore from backup (as it generally is with Linux and Windows) that would be fine, I'd take the risk. But when Apple updates go wrong, it can be more serious as you can't necessarily boot at all, even to restore from backup.
Even with all that experience and care picking good laptops, and even after Ubuntu and Xorg autoconfig made the driver situation much better, I found myself having to: Fix kernel graphics driver bugs (spans of random pixels occasionally drawn on the screen due to something extremely subtle deep in the Intel driver), sound driver bugs, and being annoyed that nothing worked right with Nvidia on one of them (neither Nvidia's driver nor Nouveau worked properly), and debugging unreliable suspend.
Now I run Linux in a VM, and that's been perfect for userspace development. On a Mac, the four-finger swipe switches beautifully between Mac and Linux full-screen desktops, as if neither OS is really in charge. It feels more like running Xen, two OSes side by side, with Apple-quality GUI for switching and organising OSes.
Of course, not so good when the Apple device bricks.
The symptoms people are reporting now are very similar to what I saw when upgrading to Catalina - hours stuck on "about a minute remaining", many reboots and with what looked like glitchy display errors and "starting from scratch" progress bars, leading to a worrying feeling it was stuck in a reboot cycle or just bricked. I was immensely relieved when it eventually finished after hours of doing whatever it was doing, as I didn't have a spare working computer (all my old Linux laptops have broken :-/) And that was after leaving it for nearly a year (I installed Catalina this summer), so the problems should have been "ironed out" by then.
I'm really glad I haven't follow the system notification's prompt to update to Big Sur. From the Catalina experience, I suspect I'd be one of the brickage victims, and I can't afford that right now.
If it were always possible to restore from backup (as it generally is with Linux and Windows) that would be fine, I'd take the risk. But when Apple updates go wrong, it can be more serious as you can't necessarily boot at all, even to restore from backup.
What virtualization are you using to swipe like that between Linux and Mac?
VMware Fusion (now changed name to VMware Player).
But I would expect it to work the same for other virtualisation software, because that's what MacOS does for full-screen apps.
It's nice that the swipe gesture is intercepted by the host instead of passed to the guest.
I swipe to full-screen remote desktops too (in this case to access another work laptop on my desk via my main monitor), it's really nice having them all available this way. It's like having a deluxe KVM, which also has a zoom-out thumbnail viewer when needed :-)
But I would expect it to work the same for other virtualisation software, because that's what MacOS does for full-screen apps.
It's nice that the swipe gesture is intercepted by the host instead of passed to the guest.
I swipe to full-screen remote desktops too (in this case to access another work laptop on my desk via my main monitor), it's really nice having them all available this way. It's like having a deluxe KVM, which also has a zoom-out thumbnail viewer when needed :-)
> VMware Fusion (now changed name to VMware Player).
It's still called VMware Fusion but is now available in the variants Player and Pro: https://www.vmware.com/se/products/fusion/fusion-evaluation....
It's still called VMware Fusion but is now available in the variants Player and Pro: https://www.vmware.com/se/products/fusion/fusion-evaluation....
I used to work this way too but get fed up with keyboard and mouse buttons getting stuck in VMs making them go bananas when the system was under load. Really nice experience apart from that and the half-broken support for Retina displays.
Possibly VMWare Fusion Pro, since I do the same on my mac.
Fullscreen the Linux VM, it becomes another desktop. Just swipe into it and continue working.
Fullscreen the Linux VM, it becomes another desktop. Just swipe into it and continue working.
Same. I've been trying to use Ubuntu full time since 2010. These days I run a (toy) deep learning rig in my cool basement that has Ubuntu. I've gone through 4 (FOUR!) different hardware attempts at wifi trying to get higher than 1Mbps to the router: 2 different internal cards, and 2 different external sticks. I spent a good 2 to 3 hours of incantations for each of those 4 options. I finally gave up and bought a $50 wifi extender that has ethernet out, which finally worked and am now getting 5g speeds to the router.
Before that it was an issue with different GPU/CUDA binaries causing conflicts and forcing a full reinstall of the system at random times when I was swapping conda envs for different python stacks.
I really really really want to be able to use Linux full time, but I haven't even got to the point of wanting to use something like video conference from a linux install, which I've heard is a nightmare.
Before that it was an issue with different GPU/CUDA binaries causing conflicts and forcing a full reinstall of the system at random times when I was swapping conda envs for different python stacks.
I really really really want to be able to use Linux full time, but I haven't even got to the point of wanting to use something like video conference from a linux install, which I've heard is a nightmare.
I’ve gone to using cables wherever I can. Depending on the wiring a power line network adaptor might speed up things substantially.
That being said, setting up WiFi is a pain, I frequently set up raspberry pis with Ubuntu and just can’t get it right without needing to connect a screen.
That being said, setting up WiFi is a pain, I frequently set up raspberry pis with Ubuntu and just can’t get it right without needing to connect a screen.
Managing CUDA install on Windows is a big PITA too
With Lenovo, Dell and HP all supporting official Linux models, I suspect this should be less of an issue now at least if you buy a supported model.
[deleted]
Hardware is still bad, inferior to Windows.
With Catalina, my Mac speakers intermittently stopped working though. So it's getting more competitive as Mac gets worse.
With Catalina, my Mac speakers intermittently stopped working though. So it's getting more competitive as Mac gets worse.
There's a pretty strong motivation:
> Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement
There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur update (which presents itself via system notifications as if it's an ordinary software update, not a major event), and they are either stuck far from any Apple service waiting for a replacement, or worse, it's out of warranty and they can't afford to buy another machine.
> Since I can’t work because I’m waiting for the replacement
There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur update (which presents itself via system notifications as if it's an ordinary software update, not a major event), and they are either stuck far from any Apple service waiting for a replacement, or worse, it's out of warranty and they can't afford to buy another machine.
> There's probably a few tens of thousands of stressed out freelancers right now who can't pay their rent this month because their only machine just got bricked by the Big Sur update
I opened my late 2013 MBP, unplugged the IO board's cable, rebooted, OS finished upgrading. I left it unplugged for now (lost WiFi/BT, HDMI and one USB) not an issue for me, was using TB to displayport and gigabit lan adapter anyways. System works and reboots fine without IO board being plugged in. Ordered a 14$ replacement board from eBay.
Do steps 17 and 18 of this:
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Disp...
I opened my late 2013 MBP, unplugged the IO board's cable, rebooted, OS finished upgrading. I left it unplugged for now (lost WiFi/BT, HDMI and one USB) not an issue for me, was using TB to displayport and gigabit lan adapter anyways. System works and reboots fine without IO board being plugged in. Ordered a 14$ replacement board from eBay.
Do steps 17 and 18 of this:
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Disp...
Wonder if that will be enough to make them consider switching away from Apple? Silly question!
I'm not a huge Apple fan at this point, but implying that other platforms don't have this problem is somewhat disingenuous.
Updates brick device across many platforms all the times. I've had plenty of PCs break from updates.
That you can even recover from a T2 failure at all without opening it up is quite nice. Perhaps my standards are low.
Updates brick device across many platforms all the times. I've had plenty of PCs break from updates.
That you can even recover from a T2 failure at all without opening it up is quite nice. Perhaps my standards are low.
Can a Windows update brick a PC? I’m pretty sure it can’t, because it does not update the firmware of the main system controller. You might end up with an unbootable copy of Windows if you’re unlucky, but it’s fairly easy to fix it with install media or a recovery partition, and you might be able to recover any data your backups don’t cover (you make backups, right?). If you don’t have any install/live media for Windows or Linux, it’s trivial to make those with any working computer (Linux, Windows, macOS), including a friend’s. But if a macOS update nukes your T2 chip’s firmware, you need access to another Mac and the appropriate cables.
We shouldn't applaud that it turned out to be possible to fix this thing after grueling effort (and the company trying to push purchasing a replacement) when the security chip was an unnecessary user-hostile blight in the first place.
Not many other general purpose computers require another computer to fix.
Most windows and linux machines can be reinstalled with a USB stick. If you don't have that USB stick they can usually be written with any macos, windows or linux machine.
Updates do not usually brick machines. I'm guessing your PCs that broke did not require another PC running the exact same windows version to fix? And I'm guessing that if those PCs were made within the last 5-10 years you could restore from recovery and not need another device?
Most windows and linux machines can be reinstalled with a USB stick. If you don't have that USB stick they can usually be written with any macos, windows or linux machine.
Updates do not usually brick machines. I'm guessing your PCs that broke did not require another PC running the exact same windows version to fix? And I'm guessing that if those PCs were made within the last 5-10 years you could restore from recovery and not need another device?
> Updates brick device across many platforms all the times.
A few weeks ago, I fired up Adobe Photoshop from their CC platform. No go, something, something about an intel compatibility.
Do online and start googling the error I was getting.
Seems the newest version determined that my quad core Xeon processors didn't support SSE 4.2 or later. A LOT of people were fuming online that in order to run the latest version, they would have to get a new PC or laptop with a new processor that was now required for the newest version.
The current solution for many is to now install an earlier version until they figure out what they want to do. Ironically, I still run a lot of stuff on my old Mac Mini so I found out that I can run the most recent version of Photoshop on there instead.
I haven't checked into the issue for a week or so. I'm still not sure if anybody came up with a solid solution without having to buy new equipment.
A few weeks ago, I fired up Adobe Photoshop from their CC platform. No go, something, something about an intel compatibility.
Do online and start googling the error I was getting.
Seems the newest version determined that my quad core Xeon processors didn't support SSE 4.2 or later. A LOT of people were fuming online that in order to run the latest version, they would have to get a new PC or laptop with a new processor that was now required for the newest version.
The current solution for many is to now install an earlier version until they figure out what they want to do. Ironically, I still run a lot of stuff on my old Mac Mini so I found out that I can run the most recent version of Photoshop on there instead.
I haven't checked into the issue for a week or so. I'm still not sure if anybody came up with a solid solution without having to buy new equipment.
> Seems the newest version determined that my quad core Xeon processors didn't support SSE 4.2 or later. A LOT of people were fuming online that in order to run the latest version, they would have to get a new PC or laptop with a new processor that was now required for the newest version.
I was with you until I looked up when SSE 4.2 was introduced.
SSE 4.2 was introduced in the Nehalem architecture...twelve years ago for desktop processors, ten for xeons. I really don't see anything wrong with Adobe requiring a processor newer than ten years old for software used by and large by creative professionals, people who make money with it.
If you're a creative professional working off a twelve year old computer, you're wasting money just from lost productivity waiting on that system - as well as flushing money down the drain on all the wasted energy running the system, unless you live somewhere electricity is insanely cheap.
A new computer would literally pay for itself in reduced power consumption alone, both idle and loaded wattage. A Ryzen 3600 uses less than half the power of a lot of xeon chips, has a single-core performance 50%+ higher than the very fastest second-gen quad core nehalem, and has two more cores.
Same goes for a modern GPU - everything is GPU accelerated these days, and you can get a several year old Nvidia card that is so power efficient the fans aren't even spinning most of the time.
Then there's the huge performance boost of NVMe.
The list goes on. Dude(tte). Buy a new computer. Or one at least made in the last 5-6 years?
I was with you until I looked up when SSE 4.2 was introduced.
SSE 4.2 was introduced in the Nehalem architecture...twelve years ago for desktop processors, ten for xeons. I really don't see anything wrong with Adobe requiring a processor newer than ten years old for software used by and large by creative professionals, people who make money with it.
If you're a creative professional working off a twelve year old computer, you're wasting money just from lost productivity waiting on that system - as well as flushing money down the drain on all the wasted energy running the system, unless you live somewhere electricity is insanely cheap.
A new computer would literally pay for itself in reduced power consumption alone, both idle and loaded wattage. A Ryzen 3600 uses less than half the power of a lot of xeon chips, has a single-core performance 50%+ higher than the very fastest second-gen quad core nehalem, and has two more cores.
Same goes for a modern GPU - everything is GPU accelerated these days, and you can get a several year old Nvidia card that is so power efficient the fans aren't even spinning most of the time.
Then there's the huge performance boost of NVMe.
The list goes on. Dude(tte). Buy a new computer. Or one at least made in the last 5-6 years?
If they can't afford another machine, then not until the current one stops working. Ironically!
But for a lot of developers, their work literally can only be done on on Apple devices. You can't develop iOS and Mac apps on anything else.
There are a lot of people for whom that is their job, including freelancers.
They could switch to a new domain of business, but that's a large change with many disadvantages. It's not like picking a different laptop just because you fancy a change. E.g. for an iOS developer to switch to being an Android developer, it's not hard to start but there's a lot to learn to be good at it to the same level and bring in the same money.
But for a lot of developers, their work literally can only be done on on Apple devices. You can't develop iOS and Mac apps on anything else.
There are a lot of people for whom that is their job, including freelancers.
They could switch to a new domain of business, but that's a large change with many disadvantages. It's not like picking a different laptop just because you fancy a change. E.g. for an iOS developer to switch to being an Android developer, it's not hard to start but there's a lot to learn to be good at it to the same level and bring in the same money.
Thats a very weird example. Those developers should know better than update on the first week of a new OS on their only non-virtualized machine.
I would be surprised if my accountant updates to a new version of Excel within 3 days if it coming out, and would be very disappointed if as a result he wasn’t able to prepare my taxes. The situation you described is similar - someone who should know better throwing their old tools before they know for sure the shiny new one will work.
I would be surprised if my accountant updates to a new version of Excel within 3 days if it coming out, and would be very disappointed if as a result he wasn’t able to prepare my taxes. The situation you described is similar - someone who should know better throwing their old tools before they know for sure the shiny new one will work.
The system notifies you about software updates from time to time, and you are trained to install them for security.
The Big Sur update is notified in the same way. It gives the appearance of being just another big software update.
Unlike Windows, Mac OS updates come out more often, about once a year for major version, and every couple of months for minor version. Despite the marketing fanfare, they are not as big a change as say jumping from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
Ok, maybe you still want to take care with a new OS. Like with Excel three days before filing taxes. (Though when do you expect the accountant to upgrade? They are always doing someone's taxes.)
Maybe you do try it in a VM first, and decide you like it, it works well for you. Some people try new OS versions in a separate partition. You can do that on a Mac, just like on a PC. It seems like it ought to be safe, because you've kept the old installation on as well. Just like on a PC, you can choose which to start up using the built-in boot menu.
Being sensible you take a full system backup first. Usually, with Apple, a backup is pretty good. You can reinstall from a backup provided the system can boot. Macs have a reinstaller built in. By analogy with a PC, it's more like "imaging" a Windows or Linux system, and as if the PC BIOS had built-in tools to restore from a backup image.
Following that analogy, the problem here is that Big Sur nuked the BIOS! It can't even reboot from external media, or the recovery partition. If a Window OS upgrade did that we'd not only be unhappy, we would also be rather surprised that we can't boot an external USB key to recover.
The Big Sur update is notified in the same way. It gives the appearance of being just another big software update.
Unlike Windows, Mac OS updates come out more often, about once a year for major version, and every couple of months for minor version. Despite the marketing fanfare, they are not as big a change as say jumping from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
Ok, maybe you still want to take care with a new OS. Like with Excel three days before filing taxes. (Though when do you expect the accountant to upgrade? They are always doing someone's taxes.)
Maybe you do try it in a VM first, and decide you like it, it works well for you. Some people try new OS versions in a separate partition. You can do that on a Mac, just like on a PC. It seems like it ought to be safe, because you've kept the old installation on as well. Just like on a PC, you can choose which to start up using the built-in boot menu.
Being sensible you take a full system backup first. Usually, with Apple, a backup is pretty good. You can reinstall from a backup provided the system can boot. Macs have a reinstaller built in. By analogy with a PC, it's more like "imaging" a Windows or Linux system, and as if the PC BIOS had built-in tools to restore from a backup image.
Following that analogy, the problem here is that Big Sur nuked the BIOS! It can't even reboot from external media, or the recovery partition. If a Window OS upgrade did that we'd not only be unhappy, we would also be rather surprised that we can't boot an external USB key to recover.
> Unlike Windows, Mac OS updates come out more often, about once a year for major version, and every couple of months for minor version. Despite the marketing fanfare, they are not as big a change as say jumping from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
Windows 10 has new major releases every 6 months, changes might be more minor than a typical macOS major release. Windows also gets security patches and bug fixes every month, those are comparable to macOS minor versions.
Windows 10 has new major releases every 6 months, changes might be more minor than a typical macOS major release. Windows also gets security patches and bug fixes every month, those are comparable to macOS minor versions.
You are spot on. The big advantage Apple had is slowly fading away: quality control. First the keyboards, now this.
As a freelance developer, my MacBook Pro is my livelihood. It’s dependence, great support and MacOS / Linux CLI was it’s main feature. Now it’s gotten to the point where you’re better off waiting 4 years before buying a new product line so the general public beta tested it long enough.
I’m getting a lot of Microsoft in the 90’s vibes from Apple these days. Anyone else as well?
As a freelance developer, my MacBook Pro is my livelihood. It’s dependence, great support and MacOS / Linux CLI was it’s main feature. Now it’s gotten to the point where you’re better off waiting 4 years before buying a new product line so the general public beta tested it long enough.
I’m getting a lot of Microsoft in the 90’s vibes from Apple these days. Anyone else as well?
Being dependent on one device, as a professional? Backups, spares and insurance are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business. Using the latest version (not the security updates of course) of anything on a production machine has always been a bad idea.
We need a new razor, something along the lines of "do not attribute to FANG marketing what is better explained by misplaced expectations".
We need a new razor, something along the lines of "do not attribute to FANG marketing what is better explained by misplaced expectations".
> spares [...] are not best practices, they are the basic cost of doing business
I think you overestimate some professional people's income (especially if it's sporadic) and underestimate their other expenses.
I've known many freelancers who buy a new laptop twice a decade at most. It will be the single most valuable object they own, and may be the result of saving for months and careful consideration of what to buy, intending it to use it for many years.
A spare good laptop "just in case" is not a realistic option for them.
Most of them could buy a second laptop if circumstances arise where it's absolutely necessary, but it would be hardship. So they wouldn't get one just as a "nice to have", a spare laptop lying around doing "nothing". Especially if it's going to be outdated by the time you have some use for it. Events where you need a spare device are quite rare after all.
That might be below "the basic cost" of running a sensible business, but for people on median and/or sporadic incomes it's a significant cost, only worth bearing if and when it becomes necessary.
I think you overestimate some professional people's income (especially if it's sporadic) and underestimate their other expenses.
I've known many freelancers who buy a new laptop twice a decade at most. It will be the single most valuable object they own, and may be the result of saving for months and careful consideration of what to buy, intending it to use it for many years.
A spare good laptop "just in case" is not a realistic option for them.
Most of them could buy a second laptop if circumstances arise where it's absolutely necessary, but it would be hardship. So they wouldn't get one just as a "nice to have", a spare laptop lying around doing "nothing". Especially if it's going to be outdated by the time you have some use for it. Events where you need a spare device are quite rare after all.
That might be below "the basic cost" of running a sensible business, but for people on median and/or sporadic incomes it's a significant cost, only worth bearing if and when it becomes necessary.
Nothing worth having comes easy?
I don’t mean to belittle anyone’s hardships, the stress of failing in particular. Being a "pro" is not amateur work.
Except for the obvious extreme scenarios, if your business collapses when your laptop fails, I think you are at fault, not Apple.
I don’t mean to belittle anyone’s hardships, the stress of failing in particular. Being a "pro" is not amateur work.
Except for the obvious extreme scenarios, if your business collapses when your laptop fails, I think you are at fault, not Apple.
I don't like your attitude here, because ultimately its harder and more expensive to mitigate against these types of failure than it has been in the past.
First, on Apple devices there are more software-induced failure modes than there had been in the past, and many of these failure modes are far more difficult or obscure to recover from. An OS update bricking your system in a way that Time Machine (or a disk image or similar) couldn't recover from was incredibly rare until rather recently.
Second, Apple devices have become so integrated and locked down it's now impossible to use some of the historical strategies to get yourself back up and running faster in the event of an unexpected failure. For example, you can no longer take the drive out of your current device and stick it in a replacement device to continue working. You've gotta make sure you have a perfectly working backup system to do that now, and even that takes waaay more time then the old-school drive swap. We're still not at the point where it's easy to shift your entire life from one machine to the next unless everything you do is cloud-based (which isn't the case for most).
Third, Apple's devices in particular have become harder to repair. They have more proprietary features than they did in the past, and a less friendly attitude towards repair than in the past. Apple don't release detailed documentation or repair manuals on how to e.g. revive the T2 chip, and AFAICT some of the tools needed to diagnose and repair Apple devices are internal only. It's now also impossible for all but an SMD repair shop to replace certain components if they fail because they are now soldered to the logic board. This, combined with the turnaround time for repairs on Apple products being ridiculous, has put even more pressure on people to have more robust backup plans than before, and penalises those without these plans moreso than in the past.
Forth, Apple's devices have become more expensive in the first place - or at least, there are now fewer options for folks to get the machines they need from third parties via upgrades. I typically work in smaller businesses and with freelancers and contractors, and many of these folk used to buy lower end models and upgrade the components over time as their needs improved and components got cheaper.
With soldered storage these days it can also be more difficult to find a suitable machine to buy e.g. used while you wait for your main machine to be repaired. Need a 1TB device? In the past, you could pick up any used machine on the market of approximately the specs you need, and simply swap in aftermarket storage. Now? Well, you're limited to the tiny portion of Macs originally sold with 1TB drives. There may be some way to use an external drive for this, but damned if I can find instructions on how to do so on Apple's website. What I can see however is a disclaimer that Macs with a T2 chip might be more difficult to use external startup disks with. I'm sure I could figure it out eventually, but I'm pretty sure your average freelancer would struggle.
So while ultimately yes, you as a professional can do things to mitigate the circumstances of any single point of failure and should do so where it makes sense, from where I sit this is an increasingly difficult and time consuming process. And all of that extra difficulty has been forced upon its customers by Apple.
First, on Apple devices there are more software-induced failure modes than there had been in the past, and many of these failure modes are far more difficult or obscure to recover from. An OS update bricking your system in a way that Time Machine (or a disk image or similar) couldn't recover from was incredibly rare until rather recently.
Second, Apple devices have become so integrated and locked down it's now impossible to use some of the historical strategies to get yourself back up and running faster in the event of an unexpected failure. For example, you can no longer take the drive out of your current device and stick it in a replacement device to continue working. You've gotta make sure you have a perfectly working backup system to do that now, and even that takes waaay more time then the old-school drive swap. We're still not at the point where it's easy to shift your entire life from one machine to the next unless everything you do is cloud-based (which isn't the case for most).
Third, Apple's devices in particular have become harder to repair. They have more proprietary features than they did in the past, and a less friendly attitude towards repair than in the past. Apple don't release detailed documentation or repair manuals on how to e.g. revive the T2 chip, and AFAICT some of the tools needed to diagnose and repair Apple devices are internal only. It's now also impossible for all but an SMD repair shop to replace certain components if they fail because they are now soldered to the logic board. This, combined with the turnaround time for repairs on Apple products being ridiculous, has put even more pressure on people to have more robust backup plans than before, and penalises those without these plans moreso than in the past.
Forth, Apple's devices have become more expensive in the first place - or at least, there are now fewer options for folks to get the machines they need from third parties via upgrades. I typically work in smaller businesses and with freelancers and contractors, and many of these folk used to buy lower end models and upgrade the components over time as their needs improved and components got cheaper.
With soldered storage these days it can also be more difficult to find a suitable machine to buy e.g. used while you wait for your main machine to be repaired. Need a 1TB device? In the past, you could pick up any used machine on the market of approximately the specs you need, and simply swap in aftermarket storage. Now? Well, you're limited to the tiny portion of Macs originally sold with 1TB drives. There may be some way to use an external drive for this, but damned if I can find instructions on how to do so on Apple's website. What I can see however is a disclaimer that Macs with a T2 chip might be more difficult to use external startup disks with. I'm sure I could figure it out eventually, but I'm pretty sure your average freelancer would struggle.
So while ultimately yes, you as a professional can do things to mitigate the circumstances of any single point of failure and should do so where it makes sense, from where I sit this is an increasingly difficult and time consuming process. And all of that extra difficulty has been forced upon its customers by Apple.
At least with microsoft we could compile and exe and have it work 20 years later...
>Im surprised at what lengths people go to sustain their attachment to their macs and apple.
Probably because going to these lengths is rare, and people will just service/replace the ocassional problematic machine.
Whereas in Linux land this is much more common, and you're on your own commercial support wise (and with friendly forums to guide you).
Probably because going to these lengths is rare, and people will just service/replace the ocassional problematic machine.
Whereas in Linux land this is much more common, and you're on your own commercial support wise (and with friendly forums to guide you).
I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update rare.
I wouldn't call dealing with this sort of thing on every other update anything but rare. And I've been using Macs since 2003 (along with Linux, Windows, etc).
It's the effect of:
(1) millions of Macs updating at the same time (fastest OS updates in the industry) vs a smaller number of Linux users scattered upon every distro and updating at random piecemeal intervals (and Windows users fragmented into 2000000 possible configurations and OEMS, with different pain points and issues, that nobody cares for, and is not newsworthy, plus the blame can be dilluted between MS and the PC vendor.).
(2) Apple doing bolder changes with releases than Windows or Linux does (adopting new things faster, custom processors and co-processors and SOCs, whole new languages, new filesystems, etc), so risking more problems.
(3) Apple news sell (few would care for "Asus botched the production run of one of its 200 models"), so they magnify the issues that 1000 or 10,000 people see as if they concern 100,000,000+ users (or half a billion in the case of iOS).
(4) Hackers and tinkerers being angry that they're not pandered by Apple, as if they ever were the target group for Macs, and as if curation and the concept of the walled garden is not central to macOS/iOS (in the positive light: not "I can't get off the garden" but "it's a peaceful garden where I can focus on X things, creeps, crazy people, junkies, etc don't get to screw around -- and yes, this means that to achieve that I can't do any arbitrary thing I might want either").
It's the effect of:
(1) millions of Macs updating at the same time (fastest OS updates in the industry) vs a smaller number of Linux users scattered upon every distro and updating at random piecemeal intervals (and Windows users fragmented into 2000000 possible configurations and OEMS, with different pain points and issues, that nobody cares for, and is not newsworthy, plus the blame can be dilluted between MS and the PC vendor.).
(2) Apple doing bolder changes with releases than Windows or Linux does (adopting new things faster, custom processors and co-processors and SOCs, whole new languages, new filesystems, etc), so risking more problems.
(3) Apple news sell (few would care for "Asus botched the production run of one of its 200 models"), so they magnify the issues that 1000 or 10,000 people see as if they concern 100,000,000+ users (or half a billion in the case of iOS).
(4) Hackers and tinkerers being angry that they're not pandered by Apple, as if they ever were the target group for Macs, and as if curation and the concept of the walled garden is not central to macOS/iOS (in the positive light: not "I can't get off the garden" but "it's a peaceful garden where I can focus on X things, creeps, crazy people, junkies, etc don't get to screw around -- and yes, this means that to achieve that I can't do any arbitrary thing I might want either").
I'm seeing more and more this sentiment about "not being the target group", and using it to justify crappy business decisions.
Around the PPC change, Apple took the grand strategy of backing away from this idea of controlling what their users were able to do with their machines. Now they're moving back to their "we say what our machines are for and if your use case doesn't match then screw you" attitude.
Many of Apple's business decisions of late have been nothing but hostile to the idea of allowing users to do what they want with their devices. As a very long time Mac OS user, this whole idea of a "walled garden" was never central to the Mac, and while Apple have always been a sufferer of NIH syndrome, it seemed in the mid-2000s that they had finally got over this and started playing nice with the rest of the industry. So much for that.
Around the PPC change, Apple took the grand strategy of backing away from this idea of controlling what their users were able to do with their machines. Now they're moving back to their "we say what our machines are for and if your use case doesn't match then screw you" attitude.
Many of Apple's business decisions of late have been nothing but hostile to the idea of allowing users to do what they want with their devices. As a very long time Mac OS user, this whole idea of a "walled garden" was never central to the Mac, and while Apple have always been a sufferer of NIH syndrome, it seemed in the mid-2000s that they had finally got over this and started playing nice with the rest of the industry. So much for that.
They don’t happen on every other update, or even every tenth update. You’re hearing from a small self-selected population of users who had undiagnosed hardware issues, dodgy power, hacked up system config, etc. and generalizing it to the vast majority of users who clicked install and resumed working 20 minutes later.
I've been using Macs for 29 years, only one update has gone bad (El Capitan after updating, the boot would never complete. I restored from Time Machine, and did a clean install, then it worked fine). Hardly "every other update". Meanwhile I've hosed so many Linux installs by somehow getting mismatched package versions
At least with Linux you can actually fix it
If you know how, have time, don't have an opportunity cost/better things....
There's also a pretty big opportunity/time/effort cost to contacting Apple support, describing your problem, fighting with them over whether the defect is covered under warranty, actually packaging the thing and shipping it to them, waiting for the fix/replacement, hoping the replacement isn't similarly screwed up, and setting up all your programs and files again when they 'fix' the problem by wiping your machine or giving you a new one.
That's correct, but as a parent said, this kind of issue is very rare. I can't actually remember another mac os upgrade actually bricking machines. I may be wrong, though.
What's way more common is random hardware failures, unrelated to the OS. I've never had to deal with apple support and hope I'll never have to, but HP enterprise support isn't frictionless either. A colleague of mine had a swollen battery, which wasn't user replaceable (guess not only Apple has bright ideas). He called up the support, which went relatively fine but in the end he had to send the computer in for repairs for two weeks and was advised to save his data as the machine would be wiped. Luckily removing the SSD was possible and didn't void the warranty...
What's way more common is random hardware failures, unrelated to the OS. I've never had to deal with apple support and hope I'll never have to, but HP enterprise support isn't frictionless either. A colleague of mine had a swollen battery, which wasn't user replaceable (guess not only Apple has bright ideas). He called up the support, which went relatively fine but in the end he had to send the computer in for repairs for two weeks and was advised to save his data as the machine would be wiped. Luckily removing the SSD was possible and didn't void the warranty...
In my experience, "Not user replaceable" on enterprise laptops means a few normal screws release the back cover to get access to the battery.
The next business day, on-site support presumably costs extra. (We have it for servers, but I don't deal with laptops until they're out of warranty.)
The next business day, on-site support presumably costs extra. (We have it for servers, but I don't deal with laptops until they're out of warranty.)
I'm sad to say my experiences with Apple support for my work laptops have been palpably worse than my dealings with my state's DMV (to use the stereotype of 'bad customer service'). I am currently stuck waiting for a screen replacement for a 6 month old 16" MBP (something that was promised in 3 days but I found today, after 4 calls and as many answers, that it might be ready this week); I'm using a 4+ year old MBP in the meantime - the latter needs a battery replacement but my numerous encounters with Apple support/Store have made me generally allergic to dealing with them. If there's a magical Apple cs experience that exists, it certainly has eluded me every time. Edit0: syntax.
And if I had endless time, presumably I could reach englightenment, with seems like a better use of my time.
You're saying people should avoid tinkering by going from Apple to "Linux", let's assume a desktop, well documented OS with binary package management like Fedora or Ubuntu.
First, this isn't happening to all updates. Second, On a daily basis, Apple stores/support are widely available and with pretty good warranty coverage. Third, the quality of hardware/user experience for the average, non-technical computer user is on a different plane of existence when comparing Apple to non-apple laptops. Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world.
I play games and have used Windows, BSD and Ubuntu as my main drivers at different times over the past 20 years. My Thinkpad is currently on Ubuntu 20.04. My career is IT/Infosec.
I don't even use my laptop most days, but I'm tempted by an M1 air because the UX and value is amazing.
First, this isn't happening to all updates. Second, On a daily basis, Apple stores/support are widely available and with pretty good warranty coverage. Third, the quality of hardware/user experience for the average, non-technical computer user is on a different plane of existence when comparing Apple to non-apple laptops. Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world.
I play games and have used Windows, BSD and Ubuntu as my main drivers at different times over the past 20 years. My Thinkpad is currently on Ubuntu 20.04. My career is IT/Infosec.
I don't even use my laptop most days, but I'm tempted by an M1 air because the UX and value is amazing.
> Screen resolution and the companion software support, battery life, weight, and trackpad are completely unmatched in the non-apple world.
Dell’s XPS line can beat or match Intel MacBook Pros in those regards.
XPS 13 9310 (2020): 1200p (base, touch optional) or 2400p (touch only), 14h11/8h12 video playback, 1.2/1.27 kg, sleeker design [0]
Intel MBP 13 (2020): 1600p (no touch), 10h video playback, 1.4 kg [1]
(Also, OSes are subjective, but macOS has been pretty annoying to me recently.)
[0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-lapt...
[1]: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
Dell’s XPS line can beat or match Intel MacBook Pros in those regards.
XPS 13 9310 (2020): 1200p (base, touch optional) or 2400p (touch only), 14h11/8h12 video playback, 1.2/1.27 kg, sleeker design [0]
Intel MBP 13 (2020): 1600p (no touch), 10h video playback, 1.4 kg [1]
(Also, OSes are subjective, but macOS has been pretty annoying to me recently.)
[0]: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-13-lapt...
[1]: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
Kwpolska, your comment is dead. Dunno why.
The retina-esque screen is a $400 add-on, touchpad probably isn't as good as apple's, touch gesture support/nav no-idea. Battery life no-idea. For a non-macOS though, it looks pretty good.
The retina-esque screen is a $400 add-on, touchpad probably isn't as good as apple's, touch gesture support/nav no-idea. Battery life no-idea. For a non-macOS though, it looks pretty good.
Trust me, I don’t usually care and would have given up – I think it was way too difficult to fix this. I’ve written extensively about switching from macOS to Windows and much prefer using a PC personally: https://char.gd/blog/2019/the-state-of-switching-to-windows-...
In this case, however, my job requires I use the Mac issued to me so y’know, it was in my interest to get it going again while I waited for a replacement.
In this case, however, my job requires I use the Mac issued to me so y’know, it was in my interest to get it going again while I waited for a replacement.
I use a Windows PC and need to use a Mac occasionally for my work. I keep delaying updates on the Mac because I'm terrified of it not coming back up, and I don't know a ton about MacOS. It doesn't help that the Mac is currently remote and I'm working from home.
My workflows are all Mac centric. Now I'm also hooked on using iPad as second display via sidecar.i could solve these issues via Linux and I am researching Linux distros by installing on my old mac but nothing quite compares to the Mac ecosystem UX. I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle.
> I solve this particular problem by only ever updating my os long after the problems have been ironed out. Apple are notorius for beta testing on users and frankly I think it's crazy to update your main machine this early in the cycle.
Exactly. Mac has become windows in this sense. Updates aren’t safe and users must stay a few versions behind.
Exactly. Mac has become windows in this sense. Updates aren’t safe and users must stay a few versions behind.
I've been using Mac since 15 years and it's always been this way.
With OSX you always updated your OS with 10.x.1 if you wanted it to work regularly.
But in the pre iOSification days a new 10.x version would come out every few years, so the 10.x.1 version would come out a few months later with major bugs ironed out. You waited a few months, and then safely enjoyed 10.x.x updates for another 2-3 years.
With the annual release, your 10.x version comes out every year, the 10.x.1 version a few months later but it’s hardly as well tested, and you’re probably better off waiting for 10.x.2 and then by the time that’s done, Apple is already preparing you for 10.x+1.
But in the pre iOSification days a new 10.x version would come out every few years, so the 10.x.1 version would come out a few months later with major bugs ironed out. You waited a few months, and then safely enjoyed 10.x.x updates for another 2-3 years.
With the annual release, your 10.x version comes out every year, the 10.x.1 version a few months later but it’s hardly as well tested, and you’re probably better off waiting for 10.x.2 and then by the time that’s done, Apple is already preparing you for 10.x+1.
Try Windows - it's the best interface to experience Linux from :D.
I'd choose a different career if I had to use Windows. I detest it even more than the average person.
Is Linux really that easy to recommend these days? I'm genuinely asking, not sure what the current state is.
My impression is that over the past few years Linux has gotten a bit better at just working out of the box, Mac would be good if you never upgrade the OS (but if you do upgrade, you're rolling the dice on a major disaster) and Windows is pretty much where it was (and still not a great experience for developers). Basically, the 3 platforms seem a lot closer to each other than they used to be.
My impression is that over the past few years Linux has gotten a bit better at just working out of the box, Mac would be good if you never upgrade the OS (but if you do upgrade, you're rolling the dice on a major disaster) and Windows is pretty much where it was (and still not a great experience for developers). Basically, the 3 platforms seem a lot closer to each other than they used to be.
As a Mac and Linux guy (no more winnndddooows yay!) My Linux machine is my rock, and has been for about 10 years and 3 or 4 hardware upgrades now.
MacOS is really nice, almost as good as Linux and great for those things like photo shop files or those unfortunate days there is no choice but to use MS office.
The only thing I miss about windows since switching my second machine to MacOS is how angry windows would make me every time I tried to do something on it.
MacOS is really nice, almost as good as Linux and great for those things like photo shop files or those unfortunate days there is no choice but to use MS office.
The only thing I miss about windows since switching my second machine to MacOS is how angry windows would make me every time I tried to do something on it.
Several laptop manufacturers officially support Linux these days, even providing it ready-installed.
If the manufacturer can supply a working Linux laptop, that usually means other distros will run without difficulty on it as well.
If the manufacturer can supply a working Linux laptop, that usually means other distros will run without difficulty on it as well.
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I surprised myself last week!
When one of my older Macs became unresponsive due to that Apple network failure problem issue, I spent countless hours running various system cleaner utilities, uninstalling apps, and blindly running obscure terminal commands from Stack Overflow, even though my own initial console log analysis (and instincts) had more-or-less confirmed that it was an issue with trustd network connection timeouts to Apple's own servers.
Fool on me. This coupled with having to get my 2019 Macbook Air keyboard replaced twice (due to sticky keys) has me thinking out loud about moving away from Apple.
Good coverage of the trustd issue: https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroy...
When one of my older Macs became unresponsive due to that Apple network failure problem issue, I spent countless hours running various system cleaner utilities, uninstalling apps, and blindly running obscure terminal commands from Stack Overflow, even though my own initial console log analysis (and instincts) had more-or-less confirmed that it was an issue with trustd network connection timeouts to Apple's own servers.
Fool on me. This coupled with having to get my 2019 Macbook Air keyboard replaced twice (due to sticky keys) has me thinking out loud about moving away from Apple.
Good coverage of the trustd issue: https://tidbits.com/2020/11/13/apple-network-failure-destroy...
Almost every single laptop I’ve owned has had an issue at one point or another. I’ve had more windows laptops with weirder issues than my Macs. The Mac hardware last longer but I’ve had a 2011 MBP finally die after 6 years.
No chance I’m rolling my dice with Linux on a laptop. Touchpad support is funky. I run FreeNAS, Linux, and raspberrypi boxes at my house.
No chance I’m rolling my dice with Linux on a laptop. Touchpad support is funky. I run FreeNAS, Linux, and raspberrypi boxes at my house.
Most people on this list have done similar shenanigans on Windows and Linux too. No OS/manufacturer comes without these kinds of edgecases.
It works 99% of the time and things like this are rare occurences. My experience with linux (Debian & Centos) has been less than stellar.
That is unfair. Apple has a billion devices in active use so there are bound to be the occasional issue. And even with those issues it is still a _far_ better experience than either Linux or Windows.
This is untrue. As somebody that just defected from OSX to Windows I can tell you that you're missing out. Windows became a more stable and usable PC where everything just works. My 2 year old top of the line MBP was replaced by a
3 year old Dell XPS 13 after 10 years of OSX and I hate to break it to you, but Windows changed.
I replaced the MBP since the I had to replace the thinnest keyboard in the world, but I had problems with BT, WiFi, crashes, random external monitor glitches, no support for two external monitors via TB 3.0 (look it up, same hardware works under windows!!). Ask my diehard OSX fan coworker that just had to upgrade OSX just to get wifi working at home. I stayed for Windows since my MBP stopped working a week after I got the keyboard replaced and to be honest I really can't bother to move back. Everything just works here.
OSX has left the domain of the power user and has been relegated to into the domain of the consumer user that likes the Apple marketing.
I am monitoring the situation with ARM CPUS closely and that would be a motivation to switch back, but right now it feels my next computer upgrade will be windows based high end laptop. Better OS and better price performance are hard to argue with.
PS: If you're a developer and you're still clinging to OSX, try it - the whole experience is next level (compared to the whole brew ecosystem). Download WSL for windows, get Ubuntu from windows store and use the Windows Terminal to experience native Ubuntu. Hell if you're using VS Code, all you need to do is type "code ." from Ubuntu to open VS Code in Windows and develop in native Linux.
I replaced the MBP since the I had to replace the thinnest keyboard in the world, but I had problems with BT, WiFi, crashes, random external monitor glitches, no support for two external monitors via TB 3.0 (look it up, same hardware works under windows!!). Ask my diehard OSX fan coworker that just had to upgrade OSX just to get wifi working at home. I stayed for Windows since my MBP stopped working a week after I got the keyboard replaced and to be honest I really can't bother to move back. Everything just works here.
OSX has left the domain of the power user and has been relegated to into the domain of the consumer user that likes the Apple marketing.
I am monitoring the situation with ARM CPUS closely and that would be a motivation to switch back, but right now it feels my next computer upgrade will be windows based high end laptop. Better OS and better price performance are hard to argue with.
PS: If you're a developer and you're still clinging to OSX, try it - the whole experience is next level (compared to the whole brew ecosystem). Download WSL for windows, get Ubuntu from windows store and use the Windows Terminal to experience native Ubuntu. Hell if you're using VS Code, all you need to do is type "code ." from Ubuntu to open VS Code in Windows and develop in native Linux.
Tried WSL2 for webdev, had high expectations for it, but I got disappointed. Docker support is bad and the whole subsystem feels sluggish. All on latest windows build, on a Samsung 970 ssd. I get it, Windows got better i agree, but it's miles away from a Unix experience
Was there anything in particular that was bad about Docker? Was it network access? What was sluggish - disk access across the Windows/Linux divide? I've just tried WSL2 out for a few minutes on a new Dell XPS and it seemed kinda neat. Clearly I've not had time to run into problems.
My Docker setup isn't slower than when it was running Arch Linux. The downside is that I have to start Docker Desktop compared to having the docker daemon start at boot. The upside is that VSCode and the browser is 10x smoother on Windows than it was on the same hardware on GNOME, so the whole dev experience feels much better.
RAM usage due to the Linux VMs might be the issue in your case, I have loads of it.
RAM usage due to the Linux VMs might be the issue in your case, I have loads of it.
This. Mac user since 1991. In 2016, I needed a VR development box with a fast GPU, so I supplemented the 27” iMac on my desk with a homebuilt PC and 27” 4K monitor. That little PC has earned its keep! I use the PC about 95% of the time. The iMac is now my Pixelmator and OmniOutliner appliance, and backup OBS video capture device.
Win10’s last 2 years of “builds” are very good. It still rots like regular Windows, but I got 3.5 years of heavy use before reinstalling it. Main apps are Unity, Visual Studio 2017, and some hardware design stuff (SOLIDWORKS, KiCad, SEGGER). It feels so liberating to have all my niche apps on the PC without having to virtualize.
User experience on Windows is a little jankier, but the utility of the niche apps makes up for it. I miss AirDrop. If I were to advise Microsoft on one thing: fix the Control Panel situation in Win10. It’s like layers of bad makeup.
Windows also restores much worse than macOS. I miss Time Machine. I purchased a tool called Macrium Reflect which gets me close enough, and actually can restore a bootable system.
Win10’s last 2 years of “builds” are very good. It still rots like regular Windows, but I got 3.5 years of heavy use before reinstalling it. Main apps are Unity, Visual Studio 2017, and some hardware design stuff (SOLIDWORKS, KiCad, SEGGER). It feels so liberating to have all my niche apps on the PC without having to virtualize.
User experience on Windows is a little jankier, but the utility of the niche apps makes up for it. I miss AirDrop. If I were to advise Microsoft on one thing: fix the Control Panel situation in Win10. It’s like layers of bad makeup.
Windows also restores much worse than macOS. I miss Time Machine. I purchased a tool called Macrium Reflect which gets me close enough, and actually can restore a bootable system.
Like another poster below with Linux, every two years I purchase a Windows laptop (most recently an XPS 2 years ago) and try it out. And so far every time I’ve been so disappointed, from hardware quality, through coil whine, through WiFi that won’t connect, etc etc. The experience has been horrible.
I truly want what you say to match my personal experience... but sadly not. Mac has just been superior in every way.
And now with the move to Arm and seeing the benchmarks starting to come out, it seems yet another huge reason to stick with Apple.
I truly want what you say to match my personal experience... but sadly not. Mac has just been superior in every way.
And now with the move to Arm and seeing the benchmarks starting to come out, it seems yet another huge reason to stick with Apple.
I've been on record here for as long as I can remember saying something similar in defense of Apple's laptops, and I've done something similar to you in buying (usually cheap ex-lease) Windows machines every year or two to try them out, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Macs are superior in "every way".
Typically with an Apple device, except for the butterfly keyboards, you could be reasonably sure that all the interaction points were at least mostly decent - display, inputs, speakers microphone, charger, system noise (fan and electrical). You could also be sure that the inbuilt feature set such as WiFi, Bluetooth, Thunderbolt, USB (USB3 was a clusterf... on PCs in the early days), even charging would work reasonably reliably.
The other nice thing about Apple's laptops for a long time has been longevity of batteries - Apple were the first manufacturer to move to 500 cycle batteries with the 2008 Unibodies, and then 1000 cycle batteries later on. Additionally, they have pretty good charging algorithms to preserve battery life over the long term - not something that is the case with many other brands.
However, I think Apple have regressed on some of these fronts since 2015 (maybe they'll redeem themselves with the M1). The touchbar and T2 have been notorious for strange issues. The USB-C only setup has been both obnoxious for anyone who ever needs to use a Type A device, and notorious for strange issues such as heat generation when charging from the "wrong" side - a clear step backwards from MagSafe. The quality of their machines has suffered with the butterfly keyboard, flexgate, less robust internals (see Louis Rossmann for more details!), and anaemic cooling (one of the most impressive things about the original retina MBP was the improvement in the cooling system for sustained performance vs the thicker unibody). MacOS itself also declined in quality somewhat obviously since somewhere around Snow Leopard, with mere flashes of brilliance inbetween since then.
At the same time, Windows 10 has improved dramatically and is now solidly Microsoft's best OS since Windows 7, beating even that OS out in many ways. And, while I don't think the PC laptops have caught up, many of them are now within firing range of Apple devices - certainly close enough that in many cases, for the few that actually get all the touchpoints right, they offer an experience that isn't too far away from the best Mac experience I've had.
Typically with an Apple device, except for the butterfly keyboards, you could be reasonably sure that all the interaction points were at least mostly decent - display, inputs, speakers microphone, charger, system noise (fan and electrical). You could also be sure that the inbuilt feature set such as WiFi, Bluetooth, Thunderbolt, USB (USB3 was a clusterf... on PCs in the early days), even charging would work reasonably reliably.
The other nice thing about Apple's laptops for a long time has been longevity of batteries - Apple were the first manufacturer to move to 500 cycle batteries with the 2008 Unibodies, and then 1000 cycle batteries later on. Additionally, they have pretty good charging algorithms to preserve battery life over the long term - not something that is the case with many other brands.
However, I think Apple have regressed on some of these fronts since 2015 (maybe they'll redeem themselves with the M1). The touchbar and T2 have been notorious for strange issues. The USB-C only setup has been both obnoxious for anyone who ever needs to use a Type A device, and notorious for strange issues such as heat generation when charging from the "wrong" side - a clear step backwards from MagSafe. The quality of their machines has suffered with the butterfly keyboard, flexgate, less robust internals (see Louis Rossmann for more details!), and anaemic cooling (one of the most impressive things about the original retina MBP was the improvement in the cooling system for sustained performance vs the thicker unibody). MacOS itself also declined in quality somewhat obviously since somewhere around Snow Leopard, with mere flashes of brilliance inbetween since then.
At the same time, Windows 10 has improved dramatically and is now solidly Microsoft's best OS since Windows 7, beating even that OS out in many ways. And, while I don't think the PC laptops have caught up, many of them are now within firing range of Apple devices - certainly close enough that in many cases, for the few that actually get all the touchpoints right, they offer an experience that isn't too far away from the best Mac experience I've had.
homebrew sucks compared to macports in terms of working well inside the OSX ecosystem. It installs itself out of the way of OSX and /System, works with Xcode and system frameworks and has all of the stuff I've ever needed.
I've been running big sur on a 2020 iMac during the public beta. I had 4 issues that I raised that were solved:
* SMB wasn't loaded at login, so an SMB volume mapping failed
* Inbuilt VPNs (L2TP over IPSec) didn't work until the last but one before the public release, but wireguard worked
* Minor bug loading a JPG as the avatar for a Contact through Maps for my Home card. I got requests for additional info on this one.
In terms of apps and utilities:
* Bartender needed to be redone and has been
* Karabiner needed changes to replace a kext
* Utilities that add keyboard shortcuts etc needed some permission finangling
* Things like OneDrive and Google Backup and Sync needed disk permissions
* iTerm2 needed to be given full disk access
So all in all, Big Sur as an upgrade over Catalina, was pretty smooth. That was from a move from a laptop running Catalina as a Mojave upgrade via Migration Assistant.
YMMV.
I've been running big sur on a 2020 iMac during the public beta. I had 4 issues that I raised that were solved:
* SMB wasn't loaded at login, so an SMB volume mapping failed
* Inbuilt VPNs (L2TP over IPSec) didn't work until the last but one before the public release, but wireguard worked
* Minor bug loading a JPG as the avatar for a Contact through Maps for my Home card. I got requests for additional info on this one.
In terms of apps and utilities:
* Bartender needed to be redone and has been
* Karabiner needed changes to replace a kext
* Utilities that add keyboard shortcuts etc needed some permission finangling
* Things like OneDrive and Google Backup and Sync needed disk permissions
* iTerm2 needed to be given full disk access
So all in all, Big Sur as an upgrade over Catalina, was pretty smooth. That was from a move from a laptop running Catalina as a Mojave upgrade via Migration Assistant.
YMMV.
Apple has like 20-30 models, so testing should be easier. Also you pay a premium for apple hardware, so there is the expectation that it just works.
Or just use Windows with WSL2/Linux VM.
This part of that support article is pretty damning:
WARNING: Back up your data before you restore the firmware on your Mac. When you restore the firmware on a Mac that contains an Apple T2 Security Chip, you are restoring the firmware on the T2 chip and on any volumes on your internal SSD storage. When this process is complete, any data on any SSD volumes is unrecoverable.
So this means that a firmware issue can lead to total data loss? Of course you should always have a backup, but nevertheless...
WARNING: Back up your data before you restore the firmware on your Mac. When you restore the firmware on a Mac that contains an Apple T2 Security Chip, you are restoring the firmware on the T2 chip and on any volumes on your internal SSD storage. When this process is complete, any data on any SSD volumes is unrecoverable.
So this means that a firmware issue can lead to total data loss? Of course you should always have a backup, but nevertheless...
I thought this part was more damning:
In very rare circumstances, such as a power failure during a macOS upgrade, a Mac that has the Apple T2 Security Chip may become unresponsive
The chip that has the keys for your system in its hands does not have redundant firmware images, like every cheap ass Android?
In very rare circumstances, such as a power failure during a macOS upgrade, a Mac that has the Apple T2 Security Chip may become unresponsive
The chip that has the keys for your system in its hands does not have redundant firmware images, like every cheap ass Android?
Even some high end Android devices has dual system partitions to allow rolling back in the event of botched upgrades
The T2 is the SSD controller, which also transparently encrypts all the data on the SSD. So yeah, a firmware issue will nuke your data by design.
The ironic thing about that suggestion is that if you’re reading that article, your Mac is already non-functional anyway, so good luck doing a backup :)
Just take out the SSD and ... Oh.
Even if you could, SSD encryption keys are kept in T2
Only if you turn on FileVault, AFAIK. And if so, then that’s the sensible encryption story.
To be clear there are two options: Revive and Restore. Revive just reinstalls the T2 firmware and reboots the system. Restore basically clears the entire system as stated.
If this fix works as advertised, you should definitely make a StackOverflow post or similar, such that this fix is more searcheable than an HN comment! It could help a ton of people.
This is out of scope for both https://StackOverflow.com and https://SuperUser.com.
This is an Apple Hardware and macOS issue and should be posted on https://Apple.StackExchange.com
This is an Apple Hardware and macOS issue and should be posted on https://Apple.StackExchange.com
I left my MBP16 unused for a few days, and during that time the battery got fully depleted. The machine never booted again, and Apple replaced the logic board + T2 chip. It would have been a ~$900 fix excluding labor if it would have been out of warranty.
> Apple suggested a replacement machine
That's so wrong on so many levels.
That's so wrong on so many levels.
You’re a real trooper to go through this.
Look, I realize this is a meta point: but has anyone else noticed how TYPICAL the discussion in TFA is at the official Apple support forums? The atmosphere is absolutely poisonous there, in the strangest passive aggressive way -- every time I search for help there, I find tons of replies that are useless, and about 5% of the time I find a helpful tidbit. There's one user in particular, whose name I won't mention, who posts EVERYWHERE with just condescending garbage, and yet they have massive forum points (level 10, or whatever).
It's very odd -- something about the moderation or something has created a community there that is extremely hostile to accurately identifying and quantifying real issues in software and hardware, and allergic to useful solutions.
Developer forums are much better, though.
It's very odd -- something about the moderation or something has created a community there that is extremely hostile to accurately identifying and quantifying real issues in software and hardware, and allergic to useful solutions.
Developer forums are much better, though.
I see this all over the place where companies have outsourced their support to the community and give out levels like this. Netgear and Evernote have similar forums. You get high-level "community helpers" who respond with non-helpful and toxic comments.
Agreed. I get this vibe from the Sonos and Ubiquiti forums.
Every discussion about Apple is like this. Reddit, Macrumors, HN. They've all been captured by people who think Apple can not fail vs people who think Apple is the great satan
The last time this happened to me, it turned out the update had just set the screen brightness to zero. Took me hours to diagnose.
Hahahahaha that could totally be the premise of a modern Seinfeld/Silicon Valley episode. You’re pulling out your voltmeter, opening up the laptop, testing your hard drives and cables, desoldering and resoldering components, spending hours on forums, and finally Kramer walks in and pushes the brightness key by instinct to show you a YouTube video, fixing your problem immediately
Well, this sucks of course. Apple is to blame and should repair it for free, etc. But now I'm just curious as to 'how' this would work. Is there some sort of EEPROM, flash or controller on that board that gets loaded with new settings or firmware? I know Big Sur does some UEFI upgrades, but would that extend to the I/O board? Or is that a separate payload? Or perhaps the update is only for the SMC or Intel firmware which crashes with certain I/O boards during init and then once init is complete it can cope with any I/O board next boot?
System updates also include firmware updates for all sorts of reasons.
Honestly, Apple has so few Mac SKUs (this is a good thing) that I imagine it is possible to exhaustively test firmware upgrades on every supported device in QC. Perhaps people upgrade with random devices plugged into their machines?
Honestly, Apple has so few Mac SKUs (this is a good thing) that I imagine it is possible to exhaustively test firmware upgrades on every supported device in QC. Perhaps people upgrade with random devices plugged into their machines?
On the day Big Sur came out we got an email from IT saying that under no circumstances should any employee install it. I'm glad out IT knew about this release's problems so early.
I don't think they were that prescient. They probably just followed what should be standard common sense by now: Never, ever, install a new OS on a machine that you can't afford to lose that very same day. Always wait for reports from early adopters or victims of bushy-tailed curiosity.
Even if the upgrade was smooth they could end up with a ton of support calls asking how to change it back or how to turn off Bluetooth.
'Bushy-tailed' well that's a new word that TIL, on a lighter note. :)
"Bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" is the usual phrase, creatively altered by the parent. (See https://wordhistories.net/2018/07/01/brighteyed-bushytailed-... for an in-depth etymology)
Your diction is outstanding.
Most likely they just applied common sense which goes for any release of any major software, don't upgrade on day 1, especially in a professional environment where you need the equipment to work most of the time.
That's just standard IT policy at most companies. Favour tested stability over being on the newest stack.
Especially when that "stack" is just your operating system. Like, what feature does a new OS like Big Sur include that was previously denied to you on a previous version of OS X? I don't get the eagerness to upgrade, especially after Catalina had proven to be somewhat bug-ridden as well.
Apple often ties their whole pipeline to OS updates for developers.
In the past it's been that developing on the latest iPhone needed the latest version of Xcode and the latest version of Xcode needed the latest version of the OS.
In the past it's been that developing on the latest iPhone needed the latest version of Xcode and the latest version of Xcode needed the latest version of the OS.
We also got an email from IT telling us not to update to Big Sur, but not because of any specific problem. Our IT department blocks all major OS updates for a few months while they do post-launch testing.
Big Sur has fewer foundational changes than Catalina did. Most the changes are just UI changes (though I think there were some changes that affect Audio processing apps).
Big Sur has fewer foundational changes than Catalina did. Most the changes are just UI changes (though I think there were some changes that affect Audio processing apps).
Apple has a pretty loose approach to backwards compatibility on macOS, compared to Microsoft with Windows.
But even with Windows, bugs always happen and goal of IT is to keep your system and tools up, not chase after latest hotness. If IT allows immediate upgrade to a new OS, they’re playing with fire and waiting for an upgrade that bricks significant % of devices and brings company operations to the halt. Heads will roll as a result, especially if that’s in a remote work setup.
But even with Windows, bugs always happen and goal of IT is to keep your system and tools up, not chase after latest hotness. If IT allows immediate upgrade to a new OS, they’re playing with fire and waiting for an upgrade that bricks significant % of devices and brings company operations to the halt. Heads will roll as a result, especially if that’s in a remote work setup.
Why is your IT department allowing personal system-updates and need to write emails about it?
In my experience, this is the standard rule and not a response to any specific issue. I've been told not to upgrade work machines to new OS releases for damn close to a decade now.
Interestingly enough, our IT doesn't send out alerts for Windows 10 feature updates. I suspect that because so many executives use Macs that this is the reason why the alert went out.
I believe there are more tools to manage updates across a fleet of Windows machines, so one can flip a switch and prevent all the windows laptops in the company from running major updates until you’re ready.
Yes it's called Group Policy. Companies can manage when every Windows machine gets updated and what gets updated on a granular level.
I think it's just common sense to wait for the bugs to get ironed out of new software when you are working with mission critical software and hardware.
As a developer I don't think I'll switch to Big Sur until I they stop supporting Mojave (i.e. the version behind Catalina, which is the version behind Big Sur).
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
As a developer I don't think I'll switch to Big Sur until I they stop supporting Mojave (i.e. the version behind Catalina, which is the version behind Big Sur).
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I don't understand why Apple makes it so difficult to ignore major OS upgrades at least for some time. Most users would be better off waiting at least a couple for a point release of Big Sur. Being responsible for a couple of Macs in my family this makes me quite angry actually.
What’s so hard to ignore? Apart from the little red dot if you have settings in your dock and maybe one notice it’s not like it’s nagging you like windows does.
I can ignore it no problem. But less proficient users, like my mother, will not know or remeber this advice.
What's also (in)convenient is that unrelated security updates, like the one for Safari that was released the same day as Big Sur, are well hidden UI wise. You have to click a small link below the Big Sur upgrade notification to get to those important security updates.
What's also (in)convenient is that unrelated security updates, like the one for Safari that was released the same day as Big Sur, are well hidden UI wise. You have to click a small link below the Big Sur upgrade notification to get to those important security updates.
If you have auto updates enabled it nags you every day with a popup notification window asking to update, exactly the same way Windows does it (at least on my machines).
meh, I upgraded my work mbp on release day and everything works completely perfectly, I suspect you'd probably be fine... :}
For anyone still on the fence about the merits of Linux vs. OS X after the beating Apple has taken this week, there are rolling release distributions that allow you to set up a Linux system once, keep it up to date with small updates, and pretty much never have to deal with scheduling around a "major upgrade" that might work, or might require a reinstall. I've had desktops / laptops like this that have worked continuously for over ten years. EOL for these machines is usually a migration or a replacement.
Yes, little things do break every now and then, just like they do on your Mac. These regressions are rare, and they're usually easy to fix. Once you've gotten past the initial install, blanking displays and fubared bootloaders aren't nearly as common as the doubt peddlers would have you believe.
Major upgrades are a pain no matter what software you're running. But commercial vendors like Apple and Microsoft are incentivized to make these updates flashy in order to sell you stuff (new hardware/software), or to market themselves ("look at our cool new/repainted stuff!"). You're always going to get big updates from these companies, and installing them never going to be boring.
But for the most part, these rolling release Linux machines end up being just that... boring! They chug along looking and acting the same for 5, 10, 15 years straight. If you wake up one day feeling like you want something flashy, you can always change your wallpaper. But for most days when you don't, there's really no good reason to have these big, catastrophic updates every year or two. They're a waste of everybody's time and energy.
Yes, little things do break every now and then, just like they do on your Mac. These regressions are rare, and they're usually easy to fix. Once you've gotten past the initial install, blanking displays and fubared bootloaders aren't nearly as common as the doubt peddlers would have you believe.
Major upgrades are a pain no matter what software you're running. But commercial vendors like Apple and Microsoft are incentivized to make these updates flashy in order to sell you stuff (new hardware/software), or to market themselves ("look at our cool new/repainted stuff!"). You're always going to get big updates from these companies, and installing them never going to be boring.
But for the most part, these rolling release Linux machines end up being just that... boring! They chug along looking and acting the same for 5, 10, 15 years straight. If you wake up one day feeling like you want something flashy, you can always change your wallpaper. But for most days when you don't, there's really no good reason to have these big, catastrophic updates every year or two. They're a waste of everybody's time and energy.
I would highly advise against rolling release distribution of Linux. Please hear me out.
The idea behind having a rolling release is that your upgrades happen in small chunks and therefore the breakages are small and manageable. The problem? The can come in anytime.
When you do LTS release upgrades for example, you know when you have to do that and can do proper preparations and set aside time to do it.
While the rolling distro upgrades work fine most of the time, the odd time it doesn't takes away all the supposed benefits... and it can happen at a time you're not prepared for.
The idea behind having a rolling release is that your upgrades happen in small chunks and therefore the breakages are small and manageable. The problem? The can come in anytime.
When you do LTS release upgrades for example, you know when you have to do that and can do proper preparations and set aside time to do it.
While the rolling distro upgrades work fine most of the time, the odd time it doesn't takes away all the supposed benefits... and it can happen at a time you're not prepared for.
Nobody's forcing you to upgrade anytime. Don't run upgrades just before you need your computer to work. I do upgrades once or twice a week, when I know I have time to fix if anything breaks. Maybe once a year I need to spend a couple of minutes to manually fix a problem, like re-running the updater with a special flag, or deleting a certain file. The steps are usually to be found on the distro's home page, announced in the mailung list or posted in a forum dedicated to updating. It's really not a big deal.
For servers? Yeah, I'd agree with you.
For desktops / laptops, I think either approach can work, depending on your personal preferences.
If you prefer a big update that you can schedule, and are okay with setting aside a few days every year or two, and are okay with a repository that gives you "stable" application software that may be quite old, then a release-based distribution might work better for you.
If you'd rather deal with smaller updates, and if you like having a repository that delivers application software updates closer to when they're released upstream, then a rolling release might work better for you.
For desktops / laptops, I think either approach can work, depending on your personal preferences.
If you prefer a big update that you can schedule, and are okay with setting aside a few days every year or two, and are okay with a repository that gives you "stable" application software that may be quite old, then a release-based distribution might work better for you.
If you'd rather deal with smaller updates, and if you like having a repository that delivers application software updates closer to when they're released upstream, then a rolling release might work better for you.
I’d go for XPS 13 with Linux in no time if buying that laptop wasn’t such a lottery even with Windows. See, the laptop has to work well in the first place. As bad as they are, MacBooks are terribly predictable.
As discussed elsewhere on HN already, this is about the 2013 and 2014 models.
..is that supposed to be make it any better? An OS update shouldn't kill my laptop, regardless of how old my laptop is. At most just don't let the update roll to laptops that are too old.
Honestly, I doubt most people at Apple would disagree with you. Bugs happen. I'm not saying it's good, it sounds like they need to improve testing and QA, make it right for their users, etc. But I'd be surprised if anyone in a meeting at Apple (seriously) said "let's black-screen-of-death the 2013/2014 models."
It is never that straightforward. It typically is a decision to deprioritize testing of some things.
Testing and doc quality seem deprioritizedfor macOS. This is not good.
Was doc quality ever a priority for Apple?
A company as rich as Apple should be able to QA their full supported product range without compromise.
They should be able to. It would be easy. But it is faster and cheaper not to, and companies are not single omniscient monoliths. Each department has their own targets, quotas, and deadlines, and while I doubt anyone at the top of Apple said anything along the lines of "ignore these devices", the ball was dropped somewhere in the chain of command, and the fact that nobody picked it up (along with experiences with past Apple updates) suggests to me that QA is much lower priority at Apple than some other places.
> I'd be surprised if anyone in a meeting at Apple (seriously) said "let's black-screen-of-death the 2013/2014 models.
Nah, dude, they are in there saying "let's make more bags of money", which is exactly why software continues to suck at an accelerated rate. None of it is reliable long term and it changes so fast users can't keep up, other than having to shell out more and more money to stay in the game of usable software.
A few days ago I woke up and my Sonos won't respond with Alexa. The software got updated and now they expect me to jump through a bunch of hoops (including logging out of Amazon on my devices) to get it back, but I'm not.
Nah, dude, they are in there saying "let's make more bags of money", which is exactly why software continues to suck at an accelerated rate. None of it is reliable long term and it changes so fast users can't keep up, other than having to shell out more and more money to stay in the game of usable software.
A few days ago I woke up and my Sonos won't respond with Alexa. The software got updated and now they expect me to jump through a bunch of hoops (including logging out of Amazon on my devices) to get it back, but I'm not.
It's an anomaly, not all 2013-2014 macs experience this. Mine is fine.
It doesn't make any better but, there's nothing sinister about it.
It doesn't make any better but, there's nothing sinister about it.
It's also possible that this is related to previous UEFI updates; there was an issue where those would be pushed via the same update paths are OS and app updates, but sometimes they would time out and not get installed; and then never get tried again. Not sure on what models this happens, but if that is the case we could be dealing with an issue related to different starting versions of the firmware during the update. Interesting to say the least.
The prior conversation does have information (such as which precise board is impacted) in it that satisfy the technical curiosity aspect, and it's possible since I last checked someone found a solution (probably not). HN's front page isn't a great way to seek emotional support on technical issues, though — for example, a subset of the community is guaranteed to tell you "switch away from Apple" rather than offer interesting or useful replies.
I don't think they suggested it makes it any better.
In the past, doesn't Apple just EOL computers past 5 years of age? imo this is why Apple historically "just works". Compared to MS's strategy of supporting every hardware variation and configuration under the sun, Apple just ends support for anything that doesn't conform to the new paradigm. I'm not keen on having to spend $2000 every 5 years, but it makes sense.
Seven years is required by California and I believe Apple uses that limit as a floor for all US support. They have also occasionally shipped security updates for even older hardware.
I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment to back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount of work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or impossible to address.
TBF I don't believe MS can or does ship firmware updates for any hardware other than their own. So they are less likely to suffer this particular failure.
I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment to back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount of work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or impossible to address.
TBF I don't believe MS can or does ship firmware updates for any hardware other than their own. So they are less likely to suffer this particular failure.
> Seven years is required by California and I believe Apple uses that limit as a floor for all US support.
Ah, that's why they changed it from 5
> They have also occasionally shipped security updates for even older hardware.
Yes, only security updates
> I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment to back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount of work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or impossible to address.
Yes, but there's a price for backwards compatibility. It makes the goal of "it just works" near insurmountable.
I'm not saying what MS or Apple is doing either is good or bad. I'm just explaining the pros and cons of both approaches. There's no wrong choice. You just need to be aware of the pros and cons before making a commitment on your choice. Dropping support for old stuff has been Apple's MO for decades now, while it feels to be the opposite for Microsoft
Ah, that's why they changed it from 5
> They have also occasionally shipped security updates for even older hardware.
Yes, only security updates
> I don't like using Windows but I admire MS's commitment to back compatibility. I know it adds a tremendous amount of work and makes some vulnerabilities very difficult or impossible to address.
Yes, but there's a price for backwards compatibility. It makes the goal of "it just works" near insurmountable.
I'm not saying what MS or Apple is doing either is good or bad. I'm just explaining the pros and cons of both approaches. There's no wrong choice. You just need to be aware of the pros and cons before making a commitment on your choice. Dropping support for old stuff has been Apple's MO for decades now, while it feels to be the opposite for Microsoft
Exactly, I thought it was a great example of what a dumpster fire Windows 10 and its updates are that Microsoft has blocked them from its Surface devices. I can’t believe the corporation that’s supposed to be so great at integration between their custom hardware and OSs built just for it managed to get it worse than MS and MSW10.
I experienced a black screen on my 2017 MBP. Might be a different issue than the bricking mentioned yesterday. All my apps were still running. Launchpad and mission control functioned but brought me back to the black screen if I tried to launch an app. I got out of it by using mission control to open a second desktop environment, then re-opening the original desktop. After restarting I have not experienced the issue since.
I've got a 2013, haven't upgraded to Big Sur and I have recently started having these issues—black screen, cursor visible.
Is it maybe the last Safari update?
Is it maybe the last Safari update?
Whereas if they were an innovative company, like microsoft, they would have chosen a better colour for their BSOD. Just sayin'. :p
Ahh, brings back memories of this classic post from ~15 years ago...
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/14850/microsoft-an...
'Major computer resellers such as Compaq, Gateway, and Dell are already lining up for premier placement on the new and improved BSOD. Ballmer concluded by getting a dig in against the Open Source community. "This just goes to show that Microsoft continues to innovate at a much faster pace than open source. I have yet to see any evidence that Linux even has a BSOD, let alone a customizable one."'
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/14850/microsoft-an...
'Major computer resellers such as Compaq, Gateway, and Dell are already lining up for premier placement on the new and improved BSOD. Ballmer concluded by getting a dig in against the Open Source community. "This just goes to show that Microsoft continues to innovate at a much faster pace than open source. I have yet to see any evidence that Linux even has a BSOD, let alone a customizable one."'
At least the acronym still applies, so there's that.
Had a black screen but cursor would show and spotlight worked but showed nothing else. Did a reboot with nvram reset and computer worked again
Just as a reminder, don't forget and buy more apple products. that will teach them
Hm... There were more informative replies on the Apple support thread a bit ago... they got deleted?
With millions of devices this is bound to happen. I'm sure there are a few with every big update at such a large scale.
It sucks, but it happens. Question is how this gets resolved by Apple.
It sucks, but it happens. Question is how this gets resolved by Apple.
> Question is how this gets resolved by Apple
Old Apple would just replace the machines if there was no easy fix. Warranty or not. Not sure if new Apple is still that way.
Old Apple would just replace the machines if there was no easy fix. Warranty or not. Not sure if new Apple is still that way.
I had a failure to boot on a MBP 2019 after Big Sur upgrade. I disconnected my ethernet and hdmi adapers and it booted. It gave me a message about kernel modules being disabled.
Cost of Relevance
The Mac was a novelty, a niche prpduct a decade or two ago to serve just a handful of use cases until it was thrust into relevance because of Windows' failings in the cloud development and transition era.
Now that it's everywhere, and the complexity of deployments and permutations of Mac's usage ever increasing they're stumbling just as badly as Microsoft did - perhaps worse, because Windows has to deal with orders of magnitude more different hardware and software.
The Mac was a novelty, a niche prpduct a decade or two ago to serve just a handful of use cases until it was thrust into relevance because of Windows' failings in the cloud development and transition era.
Now that it's everywhere, and the complexity of deployments and permutations of Mac's usage ever increasing they're stumbling just as badly as Microsoft did - perhaps worse, because Windows has to deal with orders of magnitude more different hardware and software.
I'm curious if any of these problems have happened to someone to wiped their drive and installed fresh. As a software developer I'm pretty sure the happy-path of "reformat and copy everything onto the drive" will work correctly, but I'm pretty sure that there's untested edge cases and bugs in all the varieties of 10.15.0 -> 11.0, 10.15.1 -> 11.0, 10.14.3 -> 11.0, 10.14.4 -> 11.0, etc., not to mention what happens when someone disables SIP to overwrite some system binaries.
So far, reformat and install has never given me a problem, but I also don't upgrade until Xcode forces me to, so probably the problems tend to be ironed out by then.
So far, reformat and install has never given me a problem, but I also don't upgrade until Xcode forces me to, so probably the problems tend to be ironed out by then.
I never update a machine I really need. My 2014 Mac Mini is on High Sierra and my 2015 MacBook Air is on Mojave. No updates even to Catalina for them.
Incidentally, because of lots of music, pictures, and videos, I boot the Mini from an external 4TB ssd. I have to hold down option. It doesn't even ask about the internal drive.
Another example of my motto of "good enough is good enough" is that my photo handler of choice is Picasa. Works fine on High Sierra. On Mojave, it complains five times with a popup before it starts, then runs OK. Weird.
Incidentally, because of lots of music, pictures, and videos, I boot the Mini from an external 4TB ssd. I have to hold down option. It doesn't even ask about the internal drive.
Another example of my motto of "good enough is good enough" is that my photo handler of choice is Picasa. Works fine on High Sierra. On Mojave, it complains five times with a popup before it starts, then runs OK. Weird.
We have the development kit for the Apple Silicon Mac and we can't install the release of Big Sur (11.0.1). Gives
> An error occurred preparing the update.
> Failed to personalize the software update. Please try again.
Very frustrating.
> An error occurred preparing the update.
> Failed to personalize the software update. Please try again.
Very frustrating.
I tried upgrading a 2019 iMac with Catalina to BigSur. It failed after the black screen with the apple logo and a count down, by going to a screen I've never seen before that said something like "failed to _apply_ update". If I restarted, then I would land on the same countdown screen until it inevitably failed again.
I ended up deleting the hard drive and reinstalling Catalina, but the weird thing is that now my 2019 iMac with Catalina plays the boot chime, which is the only part of Big Sur that worked for me...
I ended up deleting the hard drive and reinstalling Catalina, but the weird thing is that now my 2019 iMac with Catalina plays the boot chime, which is the only part of Big Sur that worked for me...
The machine always could, for newer machines they decided to mute it for some reason, there's an NVRAM setting, if you want to mute the chime again: `sudo nvram StartupMute=%01`
and the reverse: `sudo nvram StartupMute=%00`
and the reverse: `sudo nvram StartupMute=%00`
That's just Apple deciding for the users, like it has always been doing. It's funny to see the setting for it is so hidden; my PC motherboard has a "POST beep" setting in the BIOS setup, which doesn't require a terminal in a working OS to get to, and whose presence is helpfully reminded each time I turn it on ("press DEL to enter SETUP").
It doesn't necessarily require a working OS - you can of course use either of the two recovery systems (On Disk, or Internet Recovery), a bootable time machine drive(IIRC) or an OS X installation USB Drive to do so.
I do agree however that the low level system tunables are unfortunately very hidden.
I do agree however that the low level system tunables are unfortunately very hidden.
On new hardware, this setting has been moved to System Preferences.
Yeah... that's why I wait a few months to download any new update from Apple.
With the reports/articles about Big Sur and how it send data back to Apple, I am moving to PC.
I am not moving to PC thinking that Window doesn't do the same. It's just the line between Apple and Microsoft is slowly blurring.
The issue with Apple quality and dev friendly can be mitigated by good enough pc quality and linux vm. Apple is more and more tailor toward general consumers which led to more wall garden and questionable practices.
With the reports/articles about Big Sur and how it send data back to Apple, I am moving to PC.
I am not moving to PC thinking that Window doesn't do the same. It's just the line between Apple and Microsoft is slowly blurring.
The issue with Apple quality and dev friendly can be mitigated by good enough pc quality and linux vm. Apple is more and more tailor toward general consumers which led to more wall garden and questionable practices.
My 2015 MBP bricked when upgrading to Catalina. Thankfully I managed to recover back to High Sierra via Disc Utility/Recovery Mode. I upgraded to Mojave and now refuse to upgrade it any further. I have an iMac which will be staying on Mojave too.
I worry that this opens me up to security risks, but the reality is, upgrading could break it again and force me to replace it when the hardware still has plenty of life in it.
I worry that this opens me up to security risks, but the reality is, upgrading could break it again and force me to replace it when the hardware still has plenty of life in it.
Mojave should be getting security updates and bug fixes for one more year.
My T480 with LM20 is objectively the better workstation than my company MBP2019 - but at least it's 3 times as expensive and looks very shiny.
Hasn't anybody heard of loading the new OS on an external drive and dual-booting? (hold down Option key when powering up, you get to choose which OS you boot).
I've got a 10.15 MBP, and I'm going to cautiously investigate macOS 11 on an external SSD while retaining 10.15 on my internal drive. I can also boot 10.14 from an SD memory card to reproduce customer issues.
I've got a 10.15 MBP, and I'm going to cautiously investigate macOS 11 on an external SSD while retaining 10.15 on my internal drive. I can also boot 10.14 from an SD memory card to reproduce customer issues.
You can also do it easily with an APFS container now.
Never update. Always wipe and clean install from USB sticky. Trigger nvram and smc reset after install. Your machine will be perfect.
The problem is, it's not just Apple, the entire software industry has taken a turn for the worse. Everything has automatic updates these days: my phone, my watch, my computer, my TV, my car, and every single app I use on these platforms, and they are constantly breaking stuff, undoing functionality, loosing data and occasionally ruining devices permanently. I've been on the other side of these things too, with panicked-laden all night coding sessions trying to fix a bad update that went out. I've been in the software industry for almost 25 years now, I'm not sure what the answer is but the direction things have gone is unacceptable.
This is God's own truth and it has been this way since Windows 3.1 which had the ability to upgrade to Windows 95.
Just don't.
Just don't.
I also had this happen on my late 2013 MBP 15, it stayed on black screen for hours. I had an external monitor attached, so I was curious if that was affecting the update. I unplugged the monitor and then reset the laptop. It took at couple attempts, but the update resumed and I'm running Big Sur with no issues.
I upgraded yesterday and it got stuck for 90 min. MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019); Machine is 6 months old. Progress bar stopped at 95% after an hour. Did a hard reboot and it finished immediately. Working fine now.
Almost the exact same thing happened to me; black screen with the progress bar at 90% and a movable mouse cursor. I let it be for an hour or so, then hard reboot and it booted right up. No problems after that.
Why does Apple push new macOS releases via Software Update on Day 1?
It should have been on the App Store until 1-2 updates in (so enthusiasts can install it) and pushed to Software Update after then so issues are ironed out.
It should have been on the App Store until 1-2 updates in (so enthusiasts can install it) and pushed to Software Update after then so issues are ironed out.
It doesn't auto install or show up as a badge notification though, so you kind of have to go looking to find it.
The exception though is that once a patch update for your current OS is available, it gets hidden by the Big Sur upgrade prompt, and you have to click into the non-obvious "more info" link to find that. Which seems like a bad UI choice, if you're going to force me into the upgrade then do it, but if you're going to let it be lighter touch then don't have it block out the other updates like that.
The exception though is that once a patch update for your current OS is available, it gets hidden by the Big Sur upgrade prompt, and you have to click into the non-obvious "more info" link to find that. Which seems like a bad UI choice, if you're going to force me into the upgrade then do it, but if you're going to let it be lighter touch then don't have it block out the other updates like that.
There was a Safari patch either the same day or the day after.
Either way - the Software Updates channel should be for things known to be stable, and Day 1 of a brand new annual release basically never fits that description.
Either way - the Software Updates channel should be for things known to be stable, and Day 1 of a brand new annual release basically never fits that description.
Well, they did have a public beta stage for several months, which supposedly should have caught bugs like this one before general release
There is a demographic that doesn't want to install betas but still wants the latest macOS/iOS as soon as it's out.
[deleted]
It's probably in the T&C's but why would events like this not lead to a class action? People working from home with no other hardware must be tearing their hair out.
Wow, I have a late 2013 MBP... If I'd read this before, I wouldn't upgraded. I think I was very lucky, no issues with Big Sur for now.
BS like this is exactly why I moved away from Mac altogether. My wife's Macbook Air had a similar black screen after upgrading to Sierra. On my Pro, upgrading to Sierra completely messed up Cubase and a bunch of audio plugins, to the point that I had to reverse the upgrade. I still haven't upgraded to Sierra. Shortly after, I moved to Windows and despite its almost weekly updates, nothing has broken this bad on it yetm
I wonder if it still sends personal data to Apple even after getting bricked? Has anyone checked if the bricked laptop sends any traffic?
Looks like forced obsolescence. My former daily driver a 2015 Macbook Pro has somehow become so slow it struggles with the most basic tasks, even after a fresh install. Nothing seems wrong with it other than it's slow to the point that browsing the web is a pain and development work has become impossible. Wasn't like that when I bought it.
How? I'm still using a Late 2008 MacBook Pro with Catalina and it runs absolutely fine for browsing and programming, and your 2015 model is running slow?
Also, that sounds like a bug not forced obsolescence, apple just doesn't allow new MacOSes to be installed on hardware old enough unless you hack around it.
Also, that sounds like a bug not forced obsolescence, apple just doesn't allow new MacOSes to be installed on hardware old enough unless you hack around it.
Running a 2012 MacBook Pro, also still works just fine for development. The screen suffers burn-in very easily now but it’s not a big enough distraction to upgrade :P
Apple switched to ARM CPUs. Your 2008 MBP now has an expiration date, where it will not be capable of any more OS updates after a certain date. All Intel Macs will not be supported after a certain date. We don't know what date that is yet, but it is coming.
It already didn't get any "official" updates for years now but there is a community porting latest versions of MacOS to it, that's how I'm running Catalina. Besides, even with the ARM chips coming, it doesn't look like Intel macs will disappear straight away, x86-compatible MacOS will be around for years and years, if no for any other reason than that currently sold Intel macs will still be getting updates. And besides, it's a 2008 machine - if I only get a couple more years out of it then that's still great.
No, it does not look like "forced obsolescence", and could we please stop with this silly narrative every single time there is any kind of Apple bug?
It gets nobody anywhere, it's contradicted by a 20-year period of generally very reliable and long-lasting hardware from Apple, and additionally, it's lazy and uninformative.
It gets nobody anywhere, it's contradicted by a 20-year period of generally very reliable and long-lasting hardware from Apple, and additionally, it's lazy and uninformative.
Remember when they took a year off to basically rewrite and optimize Mac OS after 10.5? And they produced a wonderful OS that I’m sure people still have very fond memories of. It didn’t have a lot of new features, compared to 10.5. Steve Jobs even said that publicly a number of times, during that year. He said — and I’m paraphrasing — “that we will work on PERFORMANCE.” All my Macs since 1998 have suffered slow downs on Mac OS updates after say 10.6. 10.6 was the pinnacle of performance.
Every upgrade since 10.10 has had a NOTICEABLE slow down on my MacBook Air 2013, and my 2012 Mac Mini, and more recently my MBP 2017 is showing signs of slow down and reduced battery life as well with each update. They can even be point updates, not major ones.
These happen man, and I can’t see the real benefits that I’ve gotten from say 10.10 -> 10.15 that would outvalue the degradation in performance I’ve seen. Ok you say, a MBA 2013 is ready for the pasture, but a maxed out (RAM, SSD) MBP that is 3 years old is really just entering midlife.
It’s not a random mistake.
Every upgrade since 10.10 has had a NOTICEABLE slow down on my MacBook Air 2013, and my 2012 Mac Mini, and more recently my MBP 2017 is showing signs of slow down and reduced battery life as well with each update. They can even be point updates, not major ones.
These happen man, and I can’t see the real benefits that I’ve gotten from say 10.10 -> 10.15 that would outvalue the degradation in performance I’ve seen. Ok you say, a MBA 2013 is ready for the pasture, but a maxed out (RAM, SSD) MBP that is 3 years old is really just entering midlife.
It’s not a random mistake.
The 20 year period in which Apple has paid out hundreds of millions in dollars in settlements for illegally forcing obsolence of old devices, e.g. this one [1] that was settled in March of this year and this fine from France [2] in February of this year?
History is not on Apple's side here.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/technology/apple-iphone-l...
[2] https://fortune.com/2020/02/07/apple-iphone-slowdown-update-...
History is not on Apple's side here.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/technology/apple-iphone-l...
[2] https://fortune.com/2020/02/07/apple-iphone-slowdown-update-...
You might want to actually read those links: the issue was battery lifetime where Apple made the devices slow down when the battery could no longer meet peak demand rather than crashing. Lithium ion batteries are always going to degrade so it’s only forced obsolescence if you think Apple is sitting on some game-changing battery technology which doesn’t degrade over time.
Indeed, what this case actually showed, to people who are paying attention rather than looking for bogus reasons to accuse Apple of things, is that Apple was more committed to keeping older devices running longer. Not less.
That's the opposite of "forced obsolescence". And it's not even a close call. The stupid, credulous media coverage of this issue was embarrassing.
That's the opposite of "forced obsolescence". And it's not even a close call. The stupid, credulous media coverage of this issue was embarrassing.
It's so frustrating that people immediately jump for "forced/planned obsolescence" whenever something like this happens.
Forced obsolescence is the deliberate undermining of a device to ensure that it cannot be used in the future. That would be if Apple intentionally included code in Big Sur to cause older MacBooks to mysteriously brick.
There is a big difference between intentionally writing code like this versus not performing adequate Q&A to ensure that such bug doesn't exist, and only the former of these qualifies as planned obsolescence.
Forced obsolescence is the deliberate undermining of a device to ensure that it cannot be used in the future. That would be if Apple intentionally included code in Big Sur to cause older MacBooks to mysteriously brick.
There is a big difference between intentionally writing code like this versus not performing adequate Q&A to ensure that such bug doesn't exist, and only the former of these qualifies as planned obsolescence.
It's probably spotlight reindexing. This has been a problem with every version of osx for the past 20 years. Let it run overnight, and it should be caught up.
Came here to say this. This happens on all of Apple's operating systems - Mac, iOS, etc.
It's also a good idea to clean install all major (annual) versions of Apple OS's. When you install one major version over another, the upgrade script has to try to convert the configurations for most system services to the format for the new OS version and the possible combinations of settings in those configurations is virtually unlimited. A lot of post-upgrade issues and sluggishness result from non-optimal conversion of those configurations, especially on iOS. If you back up everything and format the drive before installing the new OS, everything will work much better. Yes it takes extra time to do that, but you will save many multiples of that time over the next year because your machine will run faster and have fewer issues.
It's also a good idea to clean install all major (annual) versions of Apple OS's. When you install one major version over another, the upgrade script has to try to convert the configurations for most system services to the format for the new OS version and the possible combinations of settings in those configurations is virtually unlimited. A lot of post-upgrade issues and sluggishness result from non-optimal conversion of those configurations, especially on iOS. If you back up everything and format the drive before installing the new OS, everything will work much better. Yes it takes extra time to do that, but you will save many multiples of that time over the next year because your machine will run faster and have fewer issues.
I actually wouldn't recommend clean installing every single year (unless you're running betas). But for the person with the 2015 MacBook Pro, 5 years later is a good time to clean install.
Might as well go back to Windows or Linux if I have to reinstall with every major update.
What am I paying the Apple tax for?
What am I paying the Apple tax for?
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I work on a 2015 13" and its completely fine. Only the mission control animations are sometimes 15fps on my 4k screen. Web browsing and dev work is good as ever.
Maybe check if the cooling is clogged or the cpu is force throttling because some temp sensor is not working. Run apple diagnostic for that.
MacOS has a bunch of bugs (for me) and they have terrible QA as it seems, but I don't see planned obsolescence here.
Maybe check if the cooling is clogged or the cpu is force throttling because some temp sensor is not working. Run apple diagnostic for that.
MacOS has a bunch of bugs (for me) and they have terrible QA as it seems, but I don't see planned obsolescence here.
My Mid2014 MBP doesn't show these symptoms. So, forced obsolescence is unlikely. Apple obsoletes devices by not providing software updates to them.
However, I was able to buy new batteries from apple for my non-unibody mac even after its update cycle is ended.
I can still buy aftermarket batteries for it and it works well. I might install something else on it in the future but, it's far from useless and dead.
However, I was able to buy new batteries from apple for my non-unibody mac even after its update cycle is ended.
I can still buy aftermarket batteries for it and it works well. I might install something else on it in the future but, it's far from useless and dead.
Check your kernel_task in Activity Monitor... if it's hogging all the processing % it most likely means the processor is being throttled.
The throttling sometimes happens because of a bad temp sensor / connection. Sometimes it's the charging port as well
The throttling sometimes happens because of a bad temp sensor / connection. Sometimes it's the charging port as well
Or during long re-indexing sessions which happen after OS updates generally.
I've had laptops that got slower over time that turned out to be full of dust inside. Easy fix with an air hose or anything to the same effect.
One of the more annoying parts of our current age is how quickly everyone responds with a conspiracy whenever something goes wrong. They made a mistake, it's that simple.
Apple is very clear when they decide a certain machine or generation of machines will not be eligible for an os upgrade.
More likely as someone in the thread pointed out, this is probably a bug related to some kind of defect or damage in the system's io board. Perhaps a certain revision of said board is a problem. Some suggest that something the upgrade does 'damages the board' .. perhaps through some kind of firmware update, but that story isn't so clear yet.
More likely as someone in the thread pointed out, this is probably a bug related to some kind of defect or damage in the system's io board. Perhaps a certain revision of said board is a problem. Some suggest that something the upgrade does 'damages the board' .. perhaps through some kind of firmware update, but that story isn't so clear yet.
>Apple is very clear when they decide a certain machine or generation of machines will not be eligible for an os upgrade.
Maybe they could make that clear for anyone buying an Intel based mac since we all know they are switching over to ARM CPUs. They won't though, they will still be selling Intel Macs for some time, knowing that they won't be supporting those macs through the useful lifetime of the hardware.
Maybe they could make that clear for anyone buying an Intel based mac since we all know they are switching over to ARM CPUs. They won't though, they will still be selling Intel Macs for some time, knowing that they won't be supporting those macs through the useful lifetime of the hardware.
Replacing the dried out thermal paste and pads interfacing the main board chips with their heat sinks cured this issue on my ancient core2 black macbook, which remains a perfectly good gentoo laptop. The latest Intel chips don’t seem to be much better. It’s interesting.
Could be dust buildup inside causing overheating and cpu throttling
Have you done a full internal cleaning and reapplying the thermal paste?
When these "major" releases risk completely breaking my laptop, I see zero incentive to update. I read through the release material and find absolutely nothing compelling. Apple seem stubbornly intent to celebrate these releases as huge step forward. Yet, the feature set is barely noteworthy.
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OSX Release Starter Pack
* "Bold New Design" - we tweaked the colors and made some things round.
* "Refreshed X" or "Powerful X" - we took something and changed it for the sake of marketing
* List of Safari Updates - Just, why? Why is that attached to an OS release?
* A bunch of other apps that are apparently only releasable with a new OS version. In particular, messages will take up 20%+ of the release content to essentially highlight the ability to put emojis and faces on everything.
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I've definitely gone from "I'll buy a mac because it's a mac" to "Maybe my next machine will be Windows. It's cheaper, more reliable, and just works"