Apple has stopped providing standalone installers for macOS updates(eclecticlight.co)
eclecticlight.co
Apple has stopped providing standalone installers for macOS updates
https://eclecticlight.co/2020/12/17/apple-has-stopped-providing-standalone-installers-for-macos-updates/
147 comments
>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded.
How is reducing the number of ways one can acquire or install something not further locking down a platform?
That's pretty much what 'locking down' a platform comes down to, reducing the number of ways you can install various kinds of software on said platform. An OS is still another piece of software.
How is reducing the number of ways one can acquire or install something not further locking down a platform?
That's pretty much what 'locking down' a platform comes down to, reducing the number of ways you can install various kinds of software on said platform. An OS is still another piece of software.
It is reducing the number of supported configurations that need to be tested, which reduces the cost of shipping software updates. It seems to go hand in hand with making the root filesystem read-only. Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable.
Perhaps this is incrementally progressing towards constant security updates like Chrome has had for some time.
Perhaps this is incrementally progressing towards constant security updates like Chrome has had for some time.
> Users tend to be happy when their system is reliable.
Reliability is only one axis. Focus too much on one aspect, and increasingly fewer people will be happy.
Reliability is only one axis. Focus too much on one aspect, and increasingly fewer people will be happy.
Security is another.
If the last week has been any indicator, this property of software product value is very hard to provide and its value greatly underestimated.
If the last week has been any indicator, this property of software product value is very hard to provide and its value greatly underestimated.
I don't think that reducing the number of ways to do the same thing is at all what people mean by "locking down a platform."
Speaking purely as personal opinion, the difference is “lockdown” -> they care; reducing options -> they don’t care.
The effect is similar, unless you’re trying to find away around it.
The effect is similar, unless you’re trying to find away around it.
Ok so you’re technically correct.
Most users do not care.
How is sitting on social media ranting about such things productive?
This is how corporate works. Do something different politically if it matters.
Most users do not care.
How is sitting on social media ranting about such things productive?
This is how corporate works. Do something different politically if it matters.
Example: https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-11-10...
From which we find the URL to the 11.1 standalone installer (11.4GB):
http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9...
From which we find the URL to the 11.1 standalone installer (11.4GB):
http://swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/00/55/001-86606-A_9...
How do you know what the catalog url is?
It’s easy to figure out. I am sure the next one will be https://swscan.apple.com/content/catalogs/others/index-12-11....
> Apple further locking down the platform
> they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded
Isn't that synonymous?
> they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded
Isn't that synonymous?
Marty: The last time Tap toured America, they where, uh, booked into 10,000 seat arenas, and 15,000 seat venues, and it seems that now, on their current tour they're being booked into 1,200 seat arenas, 1,500 seat arenas, and uh I was just wondering, does this mean uh...the popularity of the group is waning?
Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no...no, no, not at all. I, I, I just think that the.. uh.. their appeal is becoming more selective.
Ian: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no...no, no, not at all. I, I, I just think that the.. uh.. their appeal is becoming more selective.
This is hilarious. They remind me of a politician.
It's just a temporary refund adjustment.
"Locking down" implies that they're adding restrictions. They're not doing that. People are just as free to download updates as they always have been. Now they just have to use a different address.
If I have two URLs pointing to my website and then I remove one, users can just go to the other one. I have not "locked down" my website or limited access at all.
If I have two URLs pointing to my website and then I remove one, users can just go to the other one. I have not "locked down" my website or limited access at all.
No. Only reductions that affect user freedom fall under "locking down". If there are redundant ways to do something, removing one doesn't lock down anything.
Making it harder for users to review & inspect update installation packages does affect user freedom.
like anyone does that
You just have to download it a slightly different way. Anyone who has any ability to actually review/inspect is able to do that.
The impact on user freedom is negligible.
But even if we decide this particular situation is in fact locking down, what I said is still true. Locking down is a subset of removing options, not synonymous with it.
The impact on user freedom is negligible.
But even if we decide this particular situation is in fact locking down, what I said is still true. Locking down is a subset of removing options, not synonymous with it.
The impact on user freedom is negligible.
Apple has been practicing incrementalism. Each small step by itself doesn't seem very significant. But the slow march continues, and the pieces add up. Current people with technical ability may be able to modify their behavior to work around it, but the technical bar has been raise slightly-- people without technical ability have one more small speedbump.
If you're right and Apple stops here, then sure, no big deal, and I'd be happy to be wrong. This isn't the hill I'd die on for the issue. It's the trend I don't like. If a few years go by without Apple locking down the OS further, I'd be okay with the status quo. Looking at the trend of the past few years though, it seems like Apple is slowly taking MacOS towards the iOS model.
Apple has been practicing incrementalism. Each small step by itself doesn't seem very significant. But the slow march continues, and the pieces add up. Current people with technical ability may be able to modify their behavior to work around it, but the technical bar has been raise slightly-- people without technical ability have one more small speedbump.
If you're right and Apple stops here, then sure, no big deal, and I'd be happy to be wrong. This isn't the hill I'd die on for the issue. It's the trend I don't like. If a few years go by without Apple locking down the OS further, I'd be okay with the status quo. Looking at the trend of the past few years though, it seems like Apple is slowly taking MacOS towards the iOS model.
People without technical ability aren't reviewing and inspecting installation packages.
If this was a typical increment in Apple's incrementalism, then even the sum total would be something you could ignore for a hundred years.
If this was a typical increment in Apple's incrementalism, then even the sum total would be something you could ignore for a hundred years.
Hahah exactly, like Apple don't have the resources to support multiple installs and have to sacrifice one method in the name of stability.....
In case of software money will only go so far to offset the scope creep.
If the scope is too large any company will fail, regardless of budget.
Apple historically was always removing features that add bulk but are not necessary (although some people need them).
To give some examples: - with one of the MacOS releases they announces there are no new features in the OS, just a cleanup of unnecessary stuff - they removed support for 32 bit apps a year ago - personally I found it painful as some stuff stopped working, but I understand this was done to streamline the system - and so on
Sure it’s sometimes irritating, but otherwise you risk ending up with a mess that Windows is.
As a side note - since they switched from physical medium it was weird to me personally that there even is a standalone installer - why not make it a system update? This year they finally did the switch.
If the scope is too large any company will fail, regardless of budget.
Apple historically was always removing features that add bulk but are not necessary (although some people need them).
To give some examples: - with one of the MacOS releases they announces there are no new features in the OS, just a cleanup of unnecessary stuff - they removed support for 32 bit apps a year ago - personally I found it painful as some stuff stopped working, but I understand this was done to streamline the system - and so on
Sure it’s sometimes irritating, but otherwise you risk ending up with a mess that Windows is.
As a side note - since they switched from physical medium it was weird to me personally that there even is a standalone installer - why not make it a system update? This year they finally did the switch.
Apple has an effectively infinite budget. Teams within Apple do not. You need to be able to cut costs to improve your ability to scale the eng org/reduce associated costs with that scaling. Reducing complexity in your SW stack is 100% critical as you age so that you can lay down technical debt and build new things faster with the freed up capital.
Shameless plug for my own little macOS app to see the contents of these update catalog files: https://github.com/hjuutilainen/sus-inspector
Ooh, this is cool. I’ll have to see if I can use it to replace reading the plist by hand!
> (Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.)
It doesn't need to. Every Big Sur mac maintains a hardware-serial-linked TLS connection to Apple's push notification service (which exposes client IP, and thus the city you're in and your ISP) at all times when connected to the network. Also, opening the App Store app links your IP to your hardware serial number.
It doesn't need to. Every Big Sur mac maintains a hardware-serial-linked TLS connection to Apple's push notification service (which exposes client IP, and thus the city you're in and your ISP) at all times when connected to the network. Also, opening the App Store app links your IP to your hardware serial number.
>I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded.
War is peace, freedom is slavery etc.
War is peace, freedom is slavery etc.
[deleted]
In other words they still provide a way to get them, just not at a URL they publish on their website.
Naah, don't you see this is about Freedom vs Slavery for all of the US, and perhaps all of humanity, so all developers should quit Apple and join Google or Microsoft to save the humanity.
It's a tool, not a religion. We use our computers to get shit done. People don't rail on and on about how DeWalt has a proprietary battery, why do people go off like this is some kind of holy war.
I could almost understand it if you were talking up Linux, at least there is some real difference there. Microsoft and Google? Give me a break.
I could almost understand it if you were talking up Linux, at least there is some real difference there. Microsoft and Google? Give me a break.
Personally, I see it as a user hostile change.
Apple Bad Fanboy Club
Really? Approximately how many users, would you say, will be unable to install MacOS as a result?
Well, I run Linux on my Mac, and I legally virtualize macOS in a VM on my Mac, so this could impact my ability to do so.
Out of interest, would you mind describing your setup? i.e. hardware, linux distro, VM tech and macOS version?
It's nothing special. I use Kubuntu on a MBP, and I've talked about how I've setup Plasma Desktop before on HN[1][2].
I run Catalina in a VM because it's the oldest macOS version that supports the APIs I'm developing against. I used to use KVM for virtualizing macOS, but VirtualBox[3] is more portable despite being much slower, so I use that now.
If you can use KVM with Virtio and VFIO passthrough, it's really fast. Linux just got Virtio-fs[4], too. I've had to pass boot options to the kernel to get the IOMMU to play nicely on the Mac, though, and I just don't have patience for that these days.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23607374
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25172499
[3] https://github.com/myspaghetti/macos-virtualbox
[4] https://virtio-fs.gitlab.io/
I run Catalina in a VM because it's the oldest macOS version that supports the APIs I'm developing against. I used to use KVM for virtualizing macOS, but VirtualBox[3] is more portable despite being much slower, so I use that now.
If you can use KVM with Virtio and VFIO passthrough, it's really fast. Linux just got Virtio-fs[4], too. I've had to pass boot options to the kernel to get the IOMMU to play nicely on the Mac, though, and I just don't have patience for that these days.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23607374
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25172499
[3] https://github.com/myspaghetti/macos-virtualbox
[4] https://virtio-fs.gitlab.io/
Thanks. I've got an MBA6,2 lying around so may give it a go over the holidays.
Linux runs really well on Macbooks that came out before 2016. I've found powertop, TLP and TLP-GUI, and mbpfan to be useful laptop and Mac-specific tools on Linux.
Not the poster you're replying to, but a cheesegrater MP4.1 with Debian and this package (https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM) works just fine.
Never bothered with GPU passthrough however.
Never bothered with GPU passthrough however.
So, you run Linux on your Mac and virtualize MacOS but won't be able to locate and download the installer as others have indicated?
I haven't actually looked into it, hence why I said it could impact my ability to do so.
That might make you unique haha.
How does VM Mac on a Mac as a developer make one unique?
Buying a mac, installing linux as your daily driver, and then running macOS in a VM?
I honestly don't even know why you'd do that. I certainly have never heard of anyone doing that until now.
I honestly don't even know why you'd do that. I certainly have never heard of anyone doing that until now.
I think it's more common to virtualize macOS on a Mac running macOS.
Sure, but that is not the setup I interpreted from his comment, as I'm unsure why you would mention linux if the point of the comment was about virtualizing macOS on macOS.
Yes, I understand. But if you can't install macOS in VM on Linux (on a Mac) then you most likely can't do it in a VM on macOS either.
[deleted]
Is your argument that we shouldn't care, or is your argument that it is not user hostile? Just curious.
I'm not personally affected, and my Apple outrage cup is already filled up with their sustained anti-repair pro-landfill stance.
I'm not personally affected, and my Apple outrage cup is already filled up with their sustained anti-repair pro-landfill stance.
https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-greenest-tech-company-...
If you actually do care about the environmental impact of your electronics, Greenpeace are the real deal. They look into the details from renewable energy use, eliminating toxic materials, average device lifetimes to reduce device churn and recyclability, there's one clear option out of the big device manufacturers and it's not even close.
If you actually do care about the environmental impact of your electronics, Greenpeace are the real deal. They look into the details from renewable energy use, eliminating toxic materials, average device lifetimes to reduce device churn and recyclability, there's one clear option out of the big device manufacturers and it's not even close.
Oh are we playing a link game now?
https://www.fastcompany.com/40561811/greenpeace-to-apple-for...
https://www.fastcompany.com/40561811/greenpeace-to-apple-for...
Yes that’s completely true. However repairability only matters environmentally because it helps the device have a longer useful lifetime. iPhones have the longest useful lifetimes of any smartphones anyway though, so they’re still clearly the best choice overall.
My one criticism of the a Greenpeace report I think is that they don’t really put enough weight on average device working lifetime. It’s a direct multiplier on every other factor.
My one criticism of the a Greenpeace report I think is that they don’t really put enough weight on average device working lifetime. It’s a direct multiplier on every other factor.
>iPhones have the longest useful lifetimes of any smartphones anyway though, so they’re still clearly the best choice overall.
Not exactly, because other phones can be repaired which extends their life.
Apple's doesn't do board repair themselves, and blocks others from doing it as well. This means more components end up in land fills. Apple's own extended warranty program makes billions of dollars. And the repair industry itself is quite large - millions maybe hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Apple products clearly fail and need repair at some point or another.
I hope you'll join everyone else in demanding Apple stop opposing right to repair legislation.
Not exactly, because other phones can be repaired which extends their life.
Apple's doesn't do board repair themselves, and blocks others from doing it as well. This means more components end up in land fills. Apple's own extended warranty program makes billions of dollars. And the repair industry itself is quite large - millions maybe hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Apple products clearly fail and need repair at some point or another.
I hope you'll join everyone else in demanding Apple stop opposing right to repair legislation.
Repairability isn’t a significant metric because beyond battery replacement, which is very reasonably for iPhones since Apple halved their battery replacement prices a few years ago, very few phones are ever repaired.
“..researchers found that brand, an intangible property, is more important than repairability or memory size in extending the life of a product.”[0]
The article found that Apple phones last on average a year longer than Samsung’s.
[0]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.h...
Another estimate puts Apple device lifespans at 4 years 3 months.[1]
[1]https://www.zdnet.com/article/iphone-ipad-mac-heres-how-long...
The average for all smartphones is estimated as from 2 to 3 years, but bear in mind that includes many Apple devices, so non Apple devices must average the low end of that.[2]
[2]https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/lifespan-smartphone.html
The fact is repairability simply isn’t a significant factor in environmental impact overall. I do completely accept that wanting it as an individual right is entirely reasonable. There are plenty of solid arguments in favour of repairability, but environmentalism isn’t one of them. If you care about the environment more than right to repair, Apple devices win by a very large margin.
“..researchers found that brand, an intangible property, is more important than repairability or memory size in extending the life of a product.”[0]
The article found that Apple phones last on average a year longer than Samsung’s.
[0]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181016142434.h...
Another estimate puts Apple device lifespans at 4 years 3 months.[1]
[1]https://www.zdnet.com/article/iphone-ipad-mac-heres-how-long...
The average for all smartphones is estimated as from 2 to 3 years, but bear in mind that includes many Apple devices, so non Apple devices must average the low end of that.[2]
[2]https://www.coolblue.nl/en/advice/lifespan-smartphone.html
The fact is repairability simply isn’t a significant factor in environmental impact overall. I do completely accept that wanting it as an individual right is entirely reasonable. There are plenty of solid arguments in favour of repairability, but environmentalism isn’t one of them. If you care about the environment more than right to repair, Apple devices win by a very large margin.
I posted direct quotes from Greenpeace. You're linking to ZDNet, and a random study that has no published data as far as I can tell. Note that I am not easily swayed by studies - I work in Vaccine R&D and I read tons of research papers, and many of them are junk. A study doesn't mean something is true. I'd trust Greenpeace knowing about the environment more than ZDNet.
>The fact is repairability simply isn’t a significant factor in environmental impact overall.
This is not a fact. Every single environmental group on this planet agrees that repair is significant component in reducing environmental impact. By definition it means fewer devices need to be re-purchased, fewer devices end up in landfills, more local repair jobs, more support-economy jobs, etc. I don't think I will be able to convince you otherwise. I will let you have the last word. Have a nice day :)
>The fact is repairability simply isn’t a significant factor in environmental impact overall.
This is not a fact. Every single environmental group on this planet agrees that repair is significant component in reducing environmental impact. By definition it means fewer devices need to be re-purchased, fewer devices end up in landfills, more local repair jobs, more support-economy jobs, etc. I don't think I will be able to convince you otherwise. I will let you have the last word. Have a nice day :)
A ‘random study’ from the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies.
Not swayed by studies. Sheesh. If the best you can do is “Laaa, Laaa, I’m not listening”, I’m done.
Not swayed by studies. Sheesh. If the best you can do is “Laaa, Laaa, I’m not listening”, I’m done.
It's an honest question to see if my priors are adequate.
My priors tell me that to a close approximation, this will prevent 0 people from installing MacOS. It's just "outrage porn".
My priors tell me that to a close approximation, this will prevent 0 people from installing MacOS. It's just "outrage porn".
It may not be the "end of macOS as a developer platform" but it's one more sign that I should start looking for an alternative because the end is on it's way.
Apple's ideal business model is very similar to the model employed for cloud based Internet services, save that they want it to apply to all computer hardware and software, not just those services that are a good fit for cloud hosting.
While it can be argued that such a service model can have benefits for both the provider and the consumer, Apple has historically engaged in anti-consumer behavior and continues to do so.
So no, this sort of thing is not to improve anything for anyone but Apple.
While it can be argued that such a service model can have benefits for both the provider and the consumer, Apple has historically engaged in anti-consumer behavior and continues to do so.
So no, this sort of thing is not to improve anything for anyone but Apple.
[deleted]
"I know HN will see this as Apple further locking down the platform, but it's also plausible that they just want to reduce the number of ways the OS can be installed and upgraded."
I think you just repeated yourself.
I think you just repeated yourself.
HN will excuse Apple, just as you have.
No, HN will rush to Cupertino with torches and pitchforks based on an inflammatory headline without clicking on the link and realizing that:
- Apple hasn't officially said anything about this. The linked rantpost is verklempt because it's been 4 weeks since the release of a major OS revision supporting a new processor architecture and a standalone installer hasn't been provided (yet).
And here are his given arguments for the Collapse of American Way and Civilization in General if this situation continues:
- It's hard to reinstall Safari.
This basically happens ... never. I've been running OS X since the beta and have never had to reinstall Safari.
- It would make it difficult to recreate a specific point release in the future.
This is valid, but also a rare use case and this doesn't prevent you from doing it, you just have to apply the incrementals from Apple.
- It would eliminate "An effective panacea for some system problems."
I think I applied a combo update to fix some hosed up printer drivers after an HP update screwed the pooch one time but I could have just loaded an earlier version. This goes into the general category of "zapping the PRAM" to fix issues which originated from a real problem this actually corrected 20 years ago and morphed into a mystical incantation to utter when you have no idea wtf is wrong with the computer and don't feel like praying the rosary over it.
- Apple hasn't officially said anything about this. The linked rantpost is verklempt because it's been 4 weeks since the release of a major OS revision supporting a new processor architecture and a standalone installer hasn't been provided (yet).
And here are his given arguments for the Collapse of American Way and Civilization in General if this situation continues:
- It's hard to reinstall Safari.
This basically happens ... never. I've been running OS X since the beta and have never had to reinstall Safari.
- It would make it difficult to recreate a specific point release in the future.
This is valid, but also a rare use case and this doesn't prevent you from doing it, you just have to apply the incrementals from Apple.
- It would eliminate "An effective panacea for some system problems."
I think I applied a combo update to fix some hosed up printer drivers after an HP update screwed the pooch one time but I could have just loaded an earlier version. This goes into the general category of "zapping the PRAM" to fix issues which originated from a real problem this actually corrected 20 years ago and morphed into a mystical incantation to utter when you have no idea wtf is wrong with the computer and don't feel like praying the rosary over it.
When was HN into excusing Apple? It's pretty much run of the mill apple emotional hate club.
Quote from the thread
"Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare."
Quote from the thread
"Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare."
Well, nerds get mad when you take away controls that existed for.. ever. Is your individuality perfectly expressed through the system preferences that Apple thinks you should have or through exercising your UNIX nerd cred by opening the hatch and messing with the guts? :)
It always seems a pretty even mix of anti-Apple & Apple apologists.
It would be a fun project to run an sentiment classifier against Apple related comments to see what the ratio actually is.
It would be a fun project to run an sentiment classifier against Apple related comments to see what the ratio actually is.
Yep. Emotional Hate Club. After 20 years of using their products may be I know something more than a regular Apple wannabe in 2020. In 2006 paying equivalent of 4000EUR in cold cash for a laptop was no small feet in my country - actually this was a price for very good second hand car at the time. And surprise: it was worth every god damn penny. Since then all of my office computers and computers of my staff are made by Apple. For a long time this company offered a perfect blend for any kind of production. Since the big success of the iPhone things slowly faded away. At first Apple killed Studio Suite, then made Final Cut Pro from professional software to semi pro kids toy, started telemetry without user consent (I use Little Snitch from second version of the software, etc), touch bar nonsense, keyboard quality nonsense, repairability nonsense and still no good web camera. But hey, M1 will change everything. For good.:)
In the future Apple will be old IBM on steroids. Personal Gatekeeper for common good. Enjoy your prison kids, war is peace - freedom is slavery - ignorance is strength.
[deleted]
Isn't that all about tracking and knowing what you do with "your" computer? If you know more about customers you can more easily manipulate them.
Confused. Just run software update, and when the install starts, exit it. Look in the /Applications folder and the installer is there.
Run:
sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Big\ Sur.app/Contents/Resources/createinstallmedia --volume /Volumes/MyVolume
Here is the support link:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372
I just did it and it works just fine.
UPDATE - I missed the fact it was the point release updates for some reason. Sorry. Leaving post as it is helpful for those that want to make a boot USB.
Run:
sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Big\ Sur.app/Contents/Resources/createinstallmedia --volume /Volumes/MyVolume
Here is the support link:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372
I just did it and it works just fine.
UPDATE - I missed the fact it was the point release updates for some reason. Sorry. Leaving post as it is helpful for those that want to make a boot USB.
If you look at the article, the complaint was about point release deltas not being offered any more, e.g. 11.0->11.1. TBH, I didn't even know Apple provided them for download in the first place.
Thanks, for some reason that did not register.
It didn't for me either. He keeps talking about standalone installers. Not clear he's actually talking about delta updates?
`softwareupdate --fetch-full-installer` is slightly more elegant!
I used the Catalina point-release updaters on Tuesday!
I needed to run Migration Assistant to copy files from a Mac Mini with 10.15.7 to another Mac Mini, originally with 10.11.
Time Machine couldn't restore. The APFS drive wouldn't mount. Carbon Copy Cloner couldn't clone the drive either. I started to dd, but realised it wouldn't update the BootROM. I made a Catalina installer with createinstallmedia, to install 10.15.
Migration Assistant still failed to copy over the keychain, because I'd installed 10.15.3 or something on the destination, instead of 10.15.7 (the source Mac Mini). Most files worked, but without the keychain, many passwords and software licence keys weren't available.
I needed the standalone updaters to make both computer run 10.15.7, so I could run Migration Assistant and get the files over (finally!)
It would be a big problem if Apple stop making these available.
I needed to run Migration Assistant to copy files from a Mac Mini with 10.15.7 to another Mac Mini, originally with 10.11.
Time Machine couldn't restore. The APFS drive wouldn't mount. Carbon Copy Cloner couldn't clone the drive either. I started to dd, but realised it wouldn't update the BootROM. I made a Catalina installer with createinstallmedia, to install 10.15.
Migration Assistant still failed to copy over the keychain, because I'd installed 10.15.3 or something on the destination, instead of 10.15.7 (the source Mac Mini). Most files worked, but without the keychain, many passwords and software licence keys weren't available.
I needed the standalone updaters to make both computer run 10.15.7, so I could run Migration Assistant and get the files over (finally!)
It would be a big problem if Apple stop making these available.
Honest question: how's that different from running Software Update from the 10.15.3 install to get to 10.15.7? (Other than working offline once you have the update downloaded, that is.)
Working offline is actually quite important. The download size is over 4 GB for the combo updater, even just for a point release. In this case, the Internet connection was fast enough, but in many places in the world it would take hours longer to download that (10 MBps at my parents' house, 250 KBps in Kiribati where I travelled last year).
It's also good to not need to connect to the App Store, with all the 2FA involved. That would associate my Apple account with that computer, and save my password in the keychain. (Yes, I know I can delete it, but I want to leave the migration running overnight and just tell the user to reboot when it's done).
It's also good to not need to connect to the App Store, with all the 2FA involved. That would associate my Apple account with that computer, and save my password in the keychain. (Yes, I know I can delete it, but I want to leave the migration running overnight and just tell the user to reboot when it's done).
I have had low bandwidth for most of my life and apple update has been a pain for the huge size of even point update. I actually haven't used offline download.
My biggest pain point was that the downloader portion of the updater is so low quality. It corrupts downloads or restarts with tiny network blips, can't resume most of the time and often much slower to download than available bandwidth (that might a bad routing issue on my country). Overall it's often a painful experience.
My biggest pain point was that the downloader portion of the updater is so low quality. It corrupts downloads or restarts with tiny network blips, can't resume most of the time and often much slower to download than available bandwidth (that might a bad routing issue on my country). Overall it's often a painful experience.
Totally off-topic, but I recently made a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser (H264, WebGL etc). I immediately got hooked on that extremely simplyness & quickness!
It was one-off project for dedicated purpose, not a desktop replacement, but I will probably build another one and see if it's any usable as an actual workstation, because I merely need anything else than browser & terminals. (Well, probably also a dedicated headless server running docker for heavier stuff.)
(Context: I've been a die-hard Mac user since 2006, when I ditched Linux desktop, which I had used exclusively since 1998.)
It was one-off project for dedicated purpose, not a desktop replacement, but I will probably build another one and see if it's any usable as an actual workstation, because I merely need anything else than browser & terminals. (Well, probably also a dedicated headless server running docker for heavier stuff.)
(Context: I've been a die-hard Mac user since 2006, when I ditched Linux desktop, which I had used exclusively since 1998.)
What is a hardware-accelerated browser? What did you use?
> a super-simple OS installation for Raspberry Pi 4, based on archlinux and contaning only a Weston desktop, virtual terminal, and HW-accelerated browser
If you where to write about this in more detail I would certainly read it (hint hint). I have been toying with a similar idea. Alpine Linux might also be an interesting OS for something like this.
If you where to write about this in more detail I would certainly read it (hint hint). I have been toying with a similar idea. Alpine Linux might also be an interesting OS for something like this.
I definitely should! The software situation for Rpi4 is a bit messy, because of ongoing 32->64bit transition, but not all stuff works there yet with mainline kernel.
(From a hobby perspective it's a bit sad that some of the older APIs such as dispmanx/openvg are being phased out IIRC, because those are extremely powerful and useful for embedded-style applications, i.e. running something else than a destop.)
(From a hobby perspective it's a bit sad that some of the older APIs such as dispmanx/openvg are being phased out IIRC, because those are extremely powerful and useful for embedded-style applications, i.e. running something else than a destop.)
Can the title be changed to "macOS delta updates"?
This is misleading otherwise.
This is misleading otherwise.
One more step towards making a unified OS for both desktop and mobile. There hasn't been a single MacOS update that hasn't inched ever closer to this obvious eventual goal. One day you won't access actual files, they will be some abstract thing that can only be accessed via authenticated APIs. No "Apple account" -> no ability to use your device.
People I know who use Apple products wouldn't care. They want things to "just work" and to get their tasks done. If that's within some restrictive paid app they don't care, Apple device owners aren't penny pinchers.
Seriously,who are the Apple users that are shocked by more and more locking down, less repairability, fewer ports and cross-brand compatibility etc? Anyone who cares about that stuff in my environment is already on Linux on desktop and Android on mobile.
Apple has its own universe and its fans like it that way. Software and hardware tightly coupled and designed together, apps highly vetted and filtered in a walled garden, compatibility among Apple devices is ensured, you can do fewer things and are kept between guardrails but are less likely to screw something up or run into bugs and untested territory etc. Seems like there's a market for this. The problem is when people have the wrong expectations and don't use existing alternatives that are better suited to their preferences.
Seriously,who are the Apple users that are shocked by more and more locking down, less repairability, fewer ports and cross-brand compatibility etc? Anyone who cares about that stuff in my environment is already on Linux on desktop and Android on mobile.
Apple has its own universe and its fans like it that way. Software and hardware tightly coupled and designed together, apps highly vetted and filtered in a walled garden, compatibility among Apple devices is ensured, you can do fewer things and are kept between guardrails but are less likely to screw something up or run into bugs and untested territory etc. Seems like there's a market for this. The problem is when people have the wrong expectations and don't use existing alternatives that are better suited to their preferences.
Meh I was an android user, linux etc, but apple's products do just work. In addition, their closed eco system allows for longer shelf life of their products as they maintain them.
Every damn android phone I had, within a year or 2 max, the updates stopped, I would be multiple major versions behind. Android is a disaster as there's so many hardware variations and screen sizes. Developing great apps that work on all phones is a pain.
Don't get me started on Linux where the graphics drivers are just shit. Every thinkpad and other laptop I had always had some issue recognizing external monitors on boot and bugging out. One monitor would work, another wouldn't, then the actual laptop display wouldn't but a monitor would.
Even as a developer and tinker, I got tired of having to spend countless hours fixing bugs and shortcomings of products that should just work.
I'd never own anything but a macbook pro for software development.
Apple does it right.
Every damn android phone I had, within a year or 2 max, the updates stopped, I would be multiple major versions behind. Android is a disaster as there's so many hardware variations and screen sizes. Developing great apps that work on all phones is a pain.
Don't get me started on Linux where the graphics drivers are just shit. Every thinkpad and other laptop I had always had some issue recognizing external monitors on boot and bugging out. One monitor would work, another wouldn't, then the actual laptop display wouldn't but a monitor would.
Even as a developer and tinker, I got tired of having to spend countless hours fixing bugs and shortcomings of products that should just work.
I'd never own anything but a macbook pro for software development.
Apple does it right.
Yep, this is exactly how I feel.
When I was a teen, I was annoyed by how locked down iOS was, so I participated heavily in the jailbreak community. Jailbreak exploits, apps, mods, themes, repos – you name it, I got involved. So every time Apple made iOS harder to jailbreak, I'd get annoyed. I'd swear eventually I'd give up on iOS altogether and move somewhere else.
But in the end, the opposite happened. I got older, and I realized that really, truly, if I was being honest with myself, I didn't need all the "openness" that I was spending so many hours working towards. As time went on, the fiddling I was doing in deeper levels of the OS became more and more unnecessary. All the openness did was make my device less stable and less secure (except in the case of comex's JBM2/PDF exploit, which was patched by jailbreakers before Apple had released 4.0.2, but I think that is the exception that makes the rule).
And I guess maybe that is why I'm not as worried about these changes as other hackers are. Apple started out with a locked-down iPhoneOS that didn't even have a 3rd party App Store. You couldn't get more closed. Time went on and Apple made it harder and harder to open, but added more and more functionality. I was worried about the trajectory when I was younger, but now I've just bought an iPhone 12 Pro and it's the best phone I've ever owned, and I don't even care enough about jailbreaking to check if I can. So I'm not worried about macOS either.
When I was a teen, I was annoyed by how locked down iOS was, so I participated heavily in the jailbreak community. Jailbreak exploits, apps, mods, themes, repos – you name it, I got involved. So every time Apple made iOS harder to jailbreak, I'd get annoyed. I'd swear eventually I'd give up on iOS altogether and move somewhere else.
But in the end, the opposite happened. I got older, and I realized that really, truly, if I was being honest with myself, I didn't need all the "openness" that I was spending so many hours working towards. As time went on, the fiddling I was doing in deeper levels of the OS became more and more unnecessary. All the openness did was make my device less stable and less secure (except in the case of comex's JBM2/PDF exploit, which was patched by jailbreakers before Apple had released 4.0.2, but I think that is the exception that makes the rule).
And I guess maybe that is why I'm not as worried about these changes as other hackers are. Apple started out with a locked-down iPhoneOS that didn't even have a 3rd party App Store. You couldn't get more closed. Time went on and Apple made it harder and harder to open, but added more and more functionality. I was worried about the trajectory when I was younger, but now I've just bought an iPhone 12 Pro and it's the best phone I've ever owned, and I don't even care enough about jailbreaking to check if I can. So I'm not worried about macOS either.
Well, as I said, there are different markets. For me, things work well with Ubuntu and Android and I don't do much nodding an customization. If I start installing gnome extensions then all hell breaks loose though.
I use years old device Android device which work fine. When you do not get updates does not mean your mobile stops working. If you are a developer then Linux should be you choice unless you are iOS developer. Then you have no option but to use a Mac.
> When you do not get updates does not mean your mobile stops working
No, it only means that any vulnerability present in the system stays on your phone forever.
> If you are a developer then Linux should be you choice unless you are iOS developer.
Listen up folks! All of you doing Mac native apps, Windows native apps, embedded stuff on windows-only tool chains and millions of other things, this guy says you're doing it wrong.
No, it only means that any vulnerability present in the system stays on your phone forever.
> If you are a developer then Linux should be you choice unless you are iOS developer.
Listen up folks! All of you doing Mac native apps, Windows native apps, embedded stuff on windows-only tool chains and millions of other things, this guy says you're doing it wrong.
How is linux better than macOS for dev?
I get out of macos exactly what I needed the most from linux: a powerful unix shell.
I can use bash or other shells in macos and it's perfect. I rely heavily on the command line when developing, but I also appreciate a nice UI and operating system interface with great graphics drivers.
I can use bash or other shells in macos and it's perfect. I rely heavily on the command line when developing, but I also appreciate a nice UI and operating system interface with great graphics drivers.
I have followed Apple universe since the days of the original Mac model, nowadays use them occasionally at work.
From my point of view, the people that complain usually only got into the platform post OS X introduction, many of them only care about BSD/Homebrew with a pretty face and aren't at all interested into developer ecosystem of what actually makes a Mac a Mac.
From my point of view, the people that complain usually only got into the platform post OS X introduction, many of them only care about BSD/Homebrew with a pretty face and aren't at all interested into developer ecosystem of what actually makes a Mac a Mac.
I've used Apple products "full time" since the late 80's and I definitely care. :) I have probably ~20 Macs in my home. Though, you're right, a pretty big percentage of people just don't seem to care about this kind of thing, at least consciously. They may dislike some specific frictional aspect of these limitations, but never quite understand the technical/practical reasons behind them.
When I first got into Macs, my first experiences of dabbling with the system was being able to edit literally anything on the computer with ResEdit, renaming key system-related files and menu items, or the shutdown message, or change key-commands of menu items in programs I used. I felt like I could do anything. This sense of control and ownership over my computer has slowly decreased as they become more abstract and DRM/gatekeeping/security seeps into every inch of their architecture.
When I first got into Macs, my first experiences of dabbling with the system was being able to edit literally anything on the computer with ResEdit, renaming key system-related files and menu items, or the shutdown message, or change key-commands of menu items in programs I used. I felt like I could do anything. This sense of control and ownership over my computer has slowly decreased as they become more abstract and DRM/gatekeeping/security seeps into every inch of their architecture.
Just you wait until their account is banned for some petty reason (like sending a message with a bad word in it, or supporting a wrong kind of politician, or using a wrong site).
https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS solves this problem.
Small world, corp actually helped me with my hackintosh.
Windows did it long time ago anyway.
The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server.
And the windows update also use the same server except it uses a different file list.
So it is no really surprise that apple also do that. It is more surprise that apple didn't do it until now.
The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server.
And the windows update also use the same server except it uses a different file list.
So it is no really surprise that apple also do that. It is more surprise that apple didn't do it until now.
> The iso downloader you can find on windows site is actually a assembler that assemble the iso on your disk from files on mincrosft server.
You can actually still get an iso, but you have to be using or spoofing a non-windows operating system (I've only tested Linux, but I would assume Mac/*BSD as well)
You can actually still get an iso, but you have to be using or spoofing a non-windows operating system (I've only tested Linux, but I would assume Mac/*BSD as well)
They only precompile iso for a few selected version, I think?
You won't get something like xpSP1 or so.
They also don't precompile iso for things like fast ring or other non stable version windows.
BTW, There is some third party assembler allow you to generate iso for whatever version you want(even some microsoft unsurpportrd versions).
BTW, There is some third party assembler allow you to generate iso for whatever version you want(even some microsoft unsurpportrd versions).
Interesting. At work we've got physical media for everything below 10, so I haven't needed any downloaded iso's there.
At home, I usually use something from the-eye.eu
At home, I usually use something from the-eye.eu
The article isn't clear that he's talking about delta updates from one version to the next.
That doesn't sound like good news for the hackintosh community.
That doesn't sound like good news at all. I have a habit to archive my system updates in case of network failure or other non connected scenario. In my mind this is mandatory. Good thing is that I have stored everything Catalina related and plan not to update any of my current computers with next version of Apple software.
On other hand I am profoundly thankful for this reality. Apple finally has shown their true colours and no form of hardware or software advancement will push me to use their products. Can you imagine the world without Linux or BSD alternatives? What a nightmare.
Thankfully the Little Snitch and VPN fiasco was the final point for me and migration to Debian/KDE is flawless.
Yes I can, when I started coding my first computer was a Timex 2068.
Apple was always been like that, they just used their newly NeXTSTEP based OS to sell themselves to the UNIX crowd as a question of survival.
Copland didn't had anything UNIX related, and BeOS just had some kind of minimal POSIX support, as it wasn't their goal to be a UNIX clone anyway.
Copland having been a success, or going BeOS instead, are two possible not taken paths that would have given a very different outcome.
Apple was always been like that, they just used their newly NeXTSTEP based OS to sell themselves to the UNIX crowd as a question of survival.
Copland didn't had anything UNIX related, and BeOS just had some kind of minimal POSIX support, as it wasn't their goal to be a UNIX clone anyway.
Copland having been a success, or going BeOS instead, are two possible not taken paths that would have given a very different outcome.
Thanks for the Geek trip.:)) Timex 2068 is cool.
Hackingtosh community built this to solve this problem and works great: https://github.com/corpnewt/gibMacOS
You can download any distro and then build a USB for mediainstall.
You can download any distro and then build a USB for mediainstall.
Why? The full installer is available, and Hackintosh users can use Software Update too.
Nothing will change for Hackintosh. Apple still has the software update catalogs and links to OS installer packages hosted in the same place as before.
When I had one, updates via System Prefs worked just as fine.
I'm running a Hackintosh 11.0.1 installed fresh, this is not a problem.
When building a hackintosh I've always downloaded the installer from the App Store.
flashback to installing xcode circa ios 13
I had to install an old xcode version, grab a folder, install new xcode, and paste the folder in
took a few tries to understand this, so it's a day + 20GB of downloads later before I had a working build
this was caused by a weird race condition between ios + swift versions and is probably not typical, but my takeaway was that having users who must use your stuff sorely tempts companies to ship crappy software
I had to install an old xcode version, grab a folder, install new xcode, and paste the folder in
took a few tries to understand this, so it's a day + 20GB of downloads later before I had a working build
this was caused by a weird race condition between ios + swift versions and is probably not typical, but my takeaway was that having users who must use your stuff sorely tempts companies to ship crappy software
Doesnt everything apple "just work"
Theoretically. In practice, I find that's not the case.
I currently work at a repair shop, and it's not infrequent that we have apple products in for software based errors.
I currently work at a repair shop, and it's not infrequent that we have apple products in for software based errors.
The ARM releases of macOS are really similar to iOS and you can get ipsw files and update via USB (from another machine).
I imagine this makes testing your application against various OS releases super fun.
Surely you should only be testing against major releases: that is, only the most-recent point release for each major release. So, for example, Big Sur is at 11.1, so test against 11.1 but not 11.0. No user should be running 11.0 any more, as it has unpatched exploits.
Similarly, every Catalina machine should be running 10.15.7 + the Supplemental Update from a couple of days ago, and every Mojave machine 10.14.6 + the relevant security updates.
Now, users or administrators may have valid reasons to sit on a point release for a few days, for example to schedule it when it's less disruptive, or to wait to see whether there it has caused problems as a recent Mojave one did. (But not for much longer, because the act of releasing an update gives black hats something to look at, and Apple themselves usually publish details of the exploits a couple of days after the release that closes them, to give people time to update.) The thing is, they are also not going to install your new software in that window either; almost the only people running your software on other than the latest point release are people who already installed an older version of it, that you tested when that point release was current. Most normal people will either let your app and the OS auto-update on their own schedule, or manually update both at the same time.
This all reduces the problem to having available copies of the last few major versions. You can't go back all that many versions because Apple's Xcode development suite stops supporting them, and you don't want to because the APIs change.
It's a very different philosophy from the Windows "test against everything", but it's self-consistent, and is not unique to Apple operating systems.
Similarly, every Catalina machine should be running 10.15.7 + the Supplemental Update from a couple of days ago, and every Mojave machine 10.14.6 + the relevant security updates.
Now, users or administrators may have valid reasons to sit on a point release for a few days, for example to schedule it when it's less disruptive, or to wait to see whether there it has caused problems as a recent Mojave one did. (But not for much longer, because the act of releasing an update gives black hats something to look at, and Apple themselves usually publish details of the exploits a couple of days after the release that closes them, to give people time to update.) The thing is, they are also not going to install your new software in that window either; almost the only people running your software on other than the latest point release are people who already installed an older version of it, that you tested when that point release was current. Most normal people will either let your app and the OS auto-update on their own schedule, or manually update both at the same time.
This all reduces the problem to having available copies of the last few major versions. You can't go back all that many versions because Apple's Xcode development suite stops supporting them, and you don't want to because the APIs change.
It's a very different philosophy from the Windows "test against everything", but it's self-consistent, and is not unique to Apple operating systems.
Does this have effect on the secondary market for used Apple products?
Just another screw you from Apple for anyone with low bandwidth that has to update a lot of computers. Its bad enough it has noticeable delays in running programs because of their security and now this.
If you have a bunch of computers and low bandwidth, you should set up a caching proxy and let it do the job for you.
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-cach...
https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/set-up-content-cach...
softwareupdate can download updates without installing them. Does anyone know if they can be extracted?
[deleted]
“Apple continues the war on its own users...”
Edit: apologies for the unsubstantive comment
Edit: apologies for the unsubstantive comment
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
Its probably to prevent hackintoshs..
This has zero effect on Hackintosh... as others have pointed out, you can still get the full OS installers (as a free download!) by looking in the sucatalog.
Or to avoid extra vulnerabilities like the past 3rd party Xcode downloads, or the current SolarWinds debacle.
If this is true, it's very annoying. There was nothing wrong with the existing system of standalone installers.
You can still download full installers for any version. And you can still perform incremental updates live via software update. The only thing no longer available are downloadable delta updates.
1) how do I update to x.3 if the latest is x.6?
2) do you think we all have free broadband growing on them trees?
1) With the full installer for x.3
2) I agree Apple's decision is stupid.
2) I agree Apple's decision is stupid.
I do enjoy watching Apple users squirm as the walled garden closes in around them.
I think it's pretty fascinating, and a little bit sad, that people exist who enjoy watching others suffer.
It's especially interesting to see the swarm of critics arrive proclaiming the end of the world when it turns out to be a pretty minor thing. Yeah we can still download standalone installers.
It's especially interesting to see the swarm of critics arrive proclaiming the end of the world when it turns out to be a pretty minor thing. Yeah we can still download standalone installers.
I’ve got a bricked 2008 Mac mini. Still runs perfectly fine but I can’t seem to get the os updated. They say they don’t support it? And you can’t seem to access websites with a browser that old and I can’t seem to install a new browser on that old of an Os.
I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb.
I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb.
The newest Mac OS for a 2008 Mac Mini (A1176) is 10.7.5. It should be possible to boot from USB by holding option when it starts.
Some versions of Linux will work with the 32-bit EFI, but maybe not the latest versions. Try burning Ubuntu 10 to a CD, and you can probably get it to boot (holding option and choosing the disk, or holding C to boot from CD).
Some versions of Linux will work with the 32-bit EFI, but maybe not the latest versions. Try burning Ubuntu 10 to a CD, and you can probably get it to boot (holding option and choosing the disk, or holding C to boot from CD).
> I can’t even get linux to install. It won’t seem to boot to a usb.
Install rEFInd and look for Linux images that will boot on machines with 32-bit EFI. Debian has one.
Install rEFInd and look for Linux images that will boot on machines with 32-bit EFI. Debian has one.
I've got a Mac laptop that refuses to update to Catalina via the app store. It starts downloading and just fails along the way somewhere. Presumably in the downloading stages. I'd suuuure like to be able to download the Catalina installer manually to eliminate network as a dependency. Likewise for all the following incremental updates.
So how it feels now, Mr. Apple apologist? Joke aside, I really hope Apple Developers to wake up and move away to other platforms. Apple is lost his touch and the only vision is summarised with one word: Control.
Software updates delivered through the automatic updater are listed in an XML catalog file that anyone can parse to get the URL where the actual update package is hosted. The packages usually use the platform standard .pkg installer format.
(Note that the update check does not send information about your system to Apple.)
Apple still provides the `softwareupdate` command line tool to list, download, and apply updates and even whole OS installers of the last 4 years of releases. The OS installers contain tools that can produce bootable install media if you want to archive them.
Apple has also provided tools to mirror software updates on your own infrastructure---see the "Content Caching" option in the Sharing prefpane, for example. Not sure what the state of this is today.
I think the linked article makes good arguments for why it may be premature to discontinue the standalone updates. And I am critical of how difficult it is to obtain OS installers for older hardware and VMs. But it's not the end of macOS as a developer platform.