Jack Ma Is Missing(nymag.com)
nymag.com
Jack Ma Is Missing
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/where-in-the-world-is-jack-ma.html
128 comments
I mean, yeah, he criticized the party publicly. This is what happens. For as wealthy, powerful and influential as he is, for him not to realize what was going to happen to him is kind of flabbergasting.
> For as wealthy, powerful and influential as he is, for him not to realize what was going to happen to him is kind of flabbergasting.
What makes you think he didn’t recognize that there was a significant risk of that?
What makes you think he didn’t recognize that there was a significant risk of that?
seppin(4)
> Unlike in the U.S., in China, being rich doesn’t protect you from being punished by the government.
That's great, I wonder that others think of this.
That's great, I wonder that others think of this.
> That's great, I wonder that others think of this.
You don't understand. It means that in China basically EVERYONE is at the mercy of the government, not just the rich. You just don't read about the anonymous ones they crush every day, and then you find them in your 'Real Body' exhibitions around the world.
You don't understand. It means that in China basically EVERYONE is at the mercy of the government, not just the rich. You just don't read about the anonymous ones they crush every day, and then you find them in your 'Real Body' exhibitions around the world.
Yeah, so they just treat everyone equally. Equally bad, that's right, but do you want me to cheer for the US where money creates this enormous shield against everything while we are left to suffer ? I'm not buying it.
Again, you’re missing the point. Rich people in China commit all kinds of crimes to varying degrees of severity just like every other country.
> but do you want me to cheer for the US where money creates this enormous shield against everything
Ever heard of Jeffrey Epstein? It was not that long ago.
Ever heard of Jeffrey Epstein? It was not that long ago.
And yet it's the USA that has more prisoners.
Not to descend in whataboutism (you are right about the terribleness of the american penal system), but China has concentration camps for minority religions. We should avoid turning this into a "who is more fascist" competition.
Us has concentration camps for south Americans. We are bad and I can do more about US (since I live here and likely most HN readers are too) than China so I tend to focus on US.
That’s good, everyone should play by the same rule. The rich billionaires should know they can be squashed at any time if they bend the rules
> That’s good, everyone should play by the same rule.
Again missing the point. There's no rule in dictatorships. The only 'rule' is the whims of the leadership. I wonder why so many people want to leave such countries instead of emigrating there - there must be some kind of reason, but I can't exactly picture it...
Again missing the point. There's no rule in dictatorships. The only 'rule' is the whims of the leadership. I wonder why so many people want to leave such countries instead of emigrating there - there must be some kind of reason, but I can't exactly picture it...
volgo(2)
He didn’t bend the rules. He had the audacity to voice an opinion.
So did Martin Skrehli. Your point? Publicly fighting with regulators is a bad idea, I’m anywhere in the world, o matter how rich you are
Politely suggesting moderate policy reforms in the context of a business workshop dedicated to such matters is hardly "publicly fighting with regulators" let alone anything deserving of being disappeared.
https://time.com/5926062/jack-ma/
https://time.com/5926062/jack-ma/
Looks like you, along with many other hawks, were wrong
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l...
According to an unnamed source. They didn’t even talk to Ma.
In any case, zero relevance to what I was talking about. I think you responded to the wrong comment.
In any case, zero relevance to what I was talking about. I think you responded to the wrong comment.
So you talked to Jack Ma? Lol you read a bunch random speculation about how he’s missing when there’s no proof. The. Try to construct a narrative from it
All this speculation could be laid to rest with egg on the face of western media outlets with just one proof-of-life phone call. The CCP, who he would like to get back in good graces with, would certainly want that. So why hasn’t it happened?
Was Martin Skrehli imprisoned because of expressing his opinion? Or was it because of securities fraud maybe?
Looks like you were wrong
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l...
He got imprisoned for securities fraud because he expressed his opinion. If he'd kept a low profile he wouldn't have gotten imprisoned.
You're not allowed to say what you just said - you will be punished, and your family, and your place of work if you say this again.
Funny because I’m sure some would read that sentence and conclude it’s a good thing.
It might be a good thing, if it was just “Privileged position doesn’t get you out of justice” and not “Privileged position doesn’t map as directly to wealth”.
(That also, of course, assumes that being targeted by the government in either case maps well to some concept of justice.)
(That also, of course, assumes that being targeted by the government in either case maps well to some concept of justice.)
Right, yeah, it left out all the context is what I’m getting at. Being able to criticize the government is paramount to western ideals. That’s about the only thing you can’t do in China with enough money.
I did. Tell me why the US protecting those with money is a good thing.
You can also get away with all sorts of illegal and terrible things in China with enough money, just like anywhere else.
But, in China, you can’t criticize the government no matter how poor or rich you are. That’s the only reason Ma disappeared- he defied the government. Not to say bad things don’t happen to dissenters in the US but it’s not a matter of course like China.
IMHO, being able to criticize the government publicly without being disappeared is paramount to our ideals of society.
The article’s interpretation left out all that context.
But, in China, you can’t criticize the government no matter how poor or rich you are. That’s the only reason Ma disappeared- he defied the government. Not to say bad things don’t happen to dissenters in the US but it’s not a matter of course like China.
IMHO, being able to criticize the government publicly without being disappeared is paramount to our ideals of society.
The article’s interpretation left out all that context.
That is completely false, and I bet from someone who has never worked professional nor lived in China
Corruption is one of the thing that will end your career, even your life. Things like smuggling drugs, creating fake products that endanger lives, will get you executed.
Jack didn’t even go against the CCP. He criticized the financial regulators for not allowing innovation.
Weird that people desperately want this to be “China Bad Government” vs the Good Billionare Jack. But it’s more akin to an FCC vs Musk battle
Corruption is one of the thing that will end your career, even your life. Things like smuggling drugs, creating fake products that endanger lives, will get you executed.
Jack didn’t even go against the CCP. He criticized the financial regulators for not allowing innovation.
Weird that people desperately want this to be “China Bad Government” vs the Good Billionare Jack. But it’s more akin to an FCC vs Musk battle
leesalminen(1)
Yeah but that's another point totally. I still don't think that allowing only those with money to criticize our government is something to be proud of.
No, you missed the point.
In the US, everyone can criticize the government and the rich can break many laws.
In China, nobody can criticize the government and the rich can break most laws.
The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government.
Rich people can break many/most laws in just about every country on earth. That’s universal.
Do you understand now?
In the US, everyone can criticize the government and the rich can break many laws.
In China, nobody can criticize the government and the rich can break most laws.
The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government.
Rich people can break many/most laws in just about every country on earth. That’s universal.
Do you understand now?
> The only difference is that nobody in China can criticize the government.
In contrast to here in America where only some of us can criticize the government. How is that supposed to help me ?
In contrast to here in America where only some of us can criticize the government. How is that supposed to help me ?
You’re still missing what I’m saying. Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal. In almost all cases.
> Anyone in the US can legally and publicly criticize any level of our government without fear of reprisal.
Both the internal statements by violent right-wing counter-demonstrators about widespread expectation of police tacit support without need for direct coordination that came to light and the actual police behavior toward violent right-wing counter-demonstrators in many cases during the recent BLM protests demonstrate that that certainly isn't true in substantial, recently-salient cases.
Both the internal statements by violent right-wing counter-demonstrators about widespread expectation of police tacit support without need for direct coordination that came to light and the actual police behavior toward violent right-wing counter-demonstrators in many cases during the recent BLM protests demonstrate that that certainly isn't true in substantial, recently-salient cases.
It is what we aspire to, though. Sure, we’re not perfect. Nobody is.
> It is what we aspire to, though
It's obviously not what some of “us” in positions of power aspire to.
I'm sure there are people whose decisions aren't reflected in the outcomes in China who prefer the CCP not repress dissent, too.
Unrealized aspirations aren't the measure of freedom of a regime.
(Sure, the US is better than the PRC when it comes to tolerating dissent. But it is not free of political repression.)
It's obviously not what some of “us” in positions of power aspire to.
I'm sure there are people whose decisions aren't reflected in the outcomes in China who prefer the CCP not repress dissent, too.
Unrealized aspirations aren't the measure of freedom of a regime.
(Sure, the US is better than the PRC when it comes to tolerating dissent. But it is not free of political repression.)
> I still don’t think that allowing only those with money to criticize our government is something to be proud of.
reply
You generally don’t have to be rich to criticize the government in the US (without punishment; being rich may be necessary to get heard, though, but that’s a different problem); on the issues where the government at any level will retaliate, directly or indirectly, for criticism, wealth isn't really all that effective in stopping it, either.
You generally don’t have to be rich to criticize the government in the US (without punishment; being rich may be necessary to get heard, though, but that’s a different problem); on the issues where the government at any level will retaliate, directly or indirectly, for criticism, wealth isn't really all that effective in stopping it, either.
In 2021 I don't believe it's strictly true that you have to be in China for this to happen, if you criticize the Party.
I guess they were trying to be cute?
No, US media has some sort of infatuation with China right now. I think they figure if they kowtow enough they’ll get access to that sweet China market.
> No, US media has some sort of infatuation with China right now
Now? I've seen this since 2014 when the Yellow Movement happened in Hong Kong, and I was living in a jungle on an Island in the middle of the Pacific. What World are you living on that you didn't see the rise of a tyrannical juggernaut that had no qualms intervening in affairs of it's neighbors to flex its power on the World stage, and kicking sand in the face of people's metaphorical face when it came to Human Rights abuses all while using its populace as slave labour, debasing its currency to create ghost towns with massive cheap fiat and calling it prosperity while the CCP controlled Industries sourced endless amounts of funding from Elites in the West that systemically undercut most local and small businesses?
No, I'd say most people who believe that China is only now in the Media are the problem as they didn't see the obvious and thought buying cheap disposable goods from China would never ensure that manufacturing base of most countries would be centralized and create a massive central point of failure which would put supply chains in a very detrimental position and in the hands of the CCP. COVID only happened to expose just how deadly this was, but this was very clear to see if you bothered to look at China's behaviour in the last 2 decades.
Sinophobia, as it were, isn't what I think should be the focus as I honestly have a great deal of sympathy and sorrow for the plight of the average Chinese citizen who is simply trying to get ahead in what is a short window in what has otherwise been a state of poverty, wide spread perpetual misery and economic despair coupled with countless purges and Civil warfare.
And before I get accused of being racist: its worth noting that one side of my family has it's origin in Guangzhou.
Now? I've seen this since 2014 when the Yellow Movement happened in Hong Kong, and I was living in a jungle on an Island in the middle of the Pacific. What World are you living on that you didn't see the rise of a tyrannical juggernaut that had no qualms intervening in affairs of it's neighbors to flex its power on the World stage, and kicking sand in the face of people's metaphorical face when it came to Human Rights abuses all while using its populace as slave labour, debasing its currency to create ghost towns with massive cheap fiat and calling it prosperity while the CCP controlled Industries sourced endless amounts of funding from Elites in the West that systemically undercut most local and small businesses?
No, I'd say most people who believe that China is only now in the Media are the problem as they didn't see the obvious and thought buying cheap disposable goods from China would never ensure that manufacturing base of most countries would be centralized and create a massive central point of failure which would put supply chains in a very detrimental position and in the hands of the CCP. COVID only happened to expose just how deadly this was, but this was very clear to see if you bothered to look at China's behaviour in the last 2 decades.
Sinophobia, as it were, isn't what I think should be the focus as I honestly have a great deal of sympathy and sorrow for the plight of the average Chinese citizen who is simply trying to get ahead in what is a short window in what has otherwise been a state of poverty, wide spread perpetual misery and economic despair coupled with countless purges and Civil warfare.
And before I get accused of being racist: its worth noting that one side of my family has it's origin in Guangzhou.
Perhaps a rising superpower that both sells you every plastic trinket you own and operates concentration camps is story people want to read about.
I’d focus on the concentration camps and leave out the cuteness. Maybe that’s just me?
I'm sorry are you implying the headline "Jack Ma is Missing" is cute?
It's not true, and 'criticizing the government' should not be a crime anywhere. There are plenty of 'Rich People' in US jails.
There's a reason Canadian cities have become a popular retirement spot for rich persons from PRC.
Not surprised. Too bad nobody is gonna do anything about that or other crazy shit Beijing is doing.
Mikhail Khodorkovsky thought he was more powerful than the Russian government [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky
How much longer can this go on? Something has to be done!
What can you do to a nation with nuclear arsenal? Not much, maybe some economic pressure. But China is pretty self-sufficient.
How another country chooses to conduct itself within its borders is none of our business.
It is if it's a matter of universal human rights transgressions.
I know people cry "whataboutism" when these counter arguments come up, but I'm genuinely curious how all this squares up.
Most of the countries we'd hope would "stand up to China" have a poor human rights record. I don't want to say one is better or worse than the other - I don't know how you measure one group of injustices against another - but in the scale of things, generously, both have room for improvement.
If the argument is that just because country A does B+C+D, doesn't mean they can't stand up to country W for doing X+Y+Z, doesn't it just become an issue of who can yield the bigger stick or carrot? If protecting human rights is selectively applied based on might AND that same might is also used to oppress human rights, isn't that setting an dangerous precedent?
Most of the countries we'd hope would "stand up to China" have a poor human rights record. I don't want to say one is better or worse than the other - I don't know how you measure one group of injustices against another - but in the scale of things, generously, both have room for improvement.
If the argument is that just because country A does B+C+D, doesn't mean they can't stand up to country W for doing X+Y+Z, doesn't it just become an issue of who can yield the bigger stick or carrot? If protecting human rights is selectively applied based on might AND that same might is also used to oppress human rights, isn't that setting an dangerous precedent?
Lol... Really?
We have delivered "democracy" to many countries, whether they want it or not.
Evidently, it seems it absolutely is our business how countries conduct themselves within their borders.
We have delivered "democracy" to many countries, whether they want it or not.
Evidently, it seems it absolutely is our business how countries conduct themselves within their borders.
Either you’re missing an /s somewhere, or you’re arguing that a past pattern of behavior itself serves as justification of continued behavior in the same vein.
I don't think we should get involved at all, but was just arguing that we do care what other countries do within their borders. That's all
Did any of those countries have a nuclear arsenal?
> We have delivered "democracy" to many countries, whether they want it or not
And that hasn't worked out well anywhere for the past what, 60 years?
And that hasn't worked out well anywhere for the past what, 60 years?
Said the French and British about the Germans.
It seems as though this notion gets very subjective and gets leveraged to influence policy decisions. Libya and Iraq are the first examples that come to mind.
Do you think WWII was justified?
Germany’s conduct extended far beyond its borders by way of direct military action.
And if they had only killed minorities within their borders...?
Get our own house in order first, then write a book about it and ship it out for free. If they don’t listen, it’s their loss. You won’t right every wrong nor mend every fence. It’s impossible, and the price you pay for constantly trying the same old failed thing is felt at home by some other minority group that could have used the resources which were squandered on faraway struggles of the cold or hot variety.
Considering the British had a huge colonial empire, the US had brutal segregation, rampant anti-Semitism ( so much so they refused ships with Jewish refugees and sent them back to their death in German occupied Europe) and eugenics experiments, and the USSR( the third main country in the Allies, mostly by necessity, but nonetheless) was pretty much as violent to their minorities as the Nazis were... What could any of them say without being blatantly hypocritical?
Strange that people are making a huge deal out of this. How’s he missing? To whom? He’s not the CEO of Alibaba anymore and doesn’t have to appear in any events
He’s a billionaire, who’s in trouble with regulators for public ally flouting their regulations. Maybe it’s a good idea to stfu for a few months until it’s settled.
The sentiments from some people on HN are so weird about this. Everyone wants to screw the big bad tech companies for having so much monopolies on what we do, until China does it then it’s “oh no big bad government takes down billionaire.”
Unbelievable
He’s a billionaire, who’s in trouble with regulators for public ally flouting their regulations. Maybe it’s a good idea to stfu for a few months until it’s settled.
The sentiments from some people on HN are so weird about this. Everyone wants to screw the big bad tech companies for having so much monopolies on what we do, until China does it then it’s “oh no big bad government takes down billionaire.”
Unbelievable
Are you suggesting there’s hypocrisy in being against the disappearing of business leaders while being pro anti-monopolistic behavior?
I can choose to not use Google, Facebook, etc and market forces still are a factor here. I can't choose to not be born in China, and there is much more friction to leaving China than not using tech products by these companies.
This is untrue. He is still the CEO of Ant Group, and was set to appear in a "Lion's Den" type show earlier this month.
How do you know what he is in trouble for? All we know is what the CCP-controlled media tells us.
How do you know he’s even in trouble? Because a bunch of western journalists haven’t seen him personally for a few weeks?
Are you really trying to draw an equivalence between Western journalists and CCP media outlets?
Looks like you were wrong https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l...
But you seemed so sure that you were right
But you seemed so sure that you were right
About what was I wrong?
Guo Wengui predicted this. Kind of crazy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/realvision/status/117150865794877...
https://mobile.twitter.com/realvision/status/117150865794877...
H predicted so many things now that has become true.
ex) He predicted HNA ceo would be assassinated. A few moths HNA ceo is killed.
edit: another chinese CEO was killed in abroad in helicopter. there is just too many to keep track now
ex) He predicted HNA ceo would be assassinated. A few moths HNA ceo is killed.
edit: another chinese CEO was killed in abroad in helicopter. there is just too many to keep track now
Just googled the story and it says he fell from a wall in Provence. Nothing about a helicopter.
oh I got confused with another chinese CEO that died in helicopter, it really can't be brushed off as coincidence:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hna-chairmans-fa...
Chinese billionaires keep dying under mysterious circumstances.
As Guo Wengui said it "A kill is a kill".
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/hna-chairmans-fa...
Chinese billionaires keep dying under mysterious circumstances.
As Guo Wengui said it "A kill is a kill".
"China is the best place in the world to start a company"
Here is what happens if you succeed to the highest level.
Here is what happens if you succeed to the highest level.
"Communist country suppresses critisism!" - News at 11.
I don't expect too much criticism of China in this thread. Too much Chinese money in SV startups for most people to risk it. I expect underhanded comments deriding the US instead as is typical in threads like these.
> Too much Chinese money in SV startups for most people to risk it.
Despite HNs sponsorship, I don’t get the impression that the readership is dominated by people financially dependent on the SV startup scene. Sure, they are overrepresented here, but given how small a percentage of world the SV startup scene is, it can be massively overrepresented and still be a minority position, and HN has a very broad audience.
Despite HNs sponsorship, I don’t get the impression that the readership is dominated by people financially dependent on the SV startup scene. Sure, they are overrepresented here, but given how small a percentage of world the SV startup scene is, it can be massively overrepresented and still be a minority position, and HN has a very broad audience.
Well there's a lot of people in here that don't work in SV.
That money is exfiltrated by millionaires breaking Chinese law.
[deleted]
It’s an unfortunate state of affairs.
[deleted]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25627043
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25636045
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25627398
Mostly https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25629774 too.