Tell HN: Dropbox now requires access to contacts for Google login
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I left dropbox when they changed the full page upsell to "dropbox business" so that I couldn't easily figure out how to skip it and get on with my work.
I had a paid pro account at the time.
I actually had a conversation with a product manager; I checked the yes you can contact me when I cancelled my account. They simply refused to admit that an upsell was a advertisement and that disrupting my workflow on my paid, professional account for an ad was wrong.
The other interesting thing about that conversation, they could not understand how a sole proprietor would see no benefit from collaboration tools and kept making up bizarre scenarios where I could use them.
I actually asked them if they were a product manager or a salesperson at one point.
To Dropbox's credit, that product manager didn't try to retain me, they were genuinely trying to figure out why I had quit; they just couldn't grok the reason.
I had a paid pro account at the time.
I actually had a conversation with a product manager; I checked the yes you can contact me when I cancelled my account. They simply refused to admit that an upsell was a advertisement and that disrupting my workflow on my paid, professional account for an ad was wrong.
The other interesting thing about that conversation, they could not understand how a sole proprietor would see no benefit from collaboration tools and kept making up bizarre scenarios where I could use them.
I actually asked them if they were a product manager or a salesperson at one point.
To Dropbox's credit, that product manager didn't try to retain me, they were genuinely trying to figure out why I had quit; they just couldn't grok the reason.
Same with the ads for Amazon videos on Amazon Prime. They are ads and I don't want ads. But they don't see it that way (don't get me started on the forced watching of texts on Blue Rays).
Ads on Amazon Prime are infuriating. And I can't help think how annoying it must be for people with disabilities.
My other bugbear are the auto playing videos on Netflix and the use of massive spoilers in episode thumbnails.
As a single consumer in a vast ocean I don't think my opinions will ever be listened to. Right now it's worth putting up with this crap as the benefits outweigh the cost but if it gets any worse I'll be unsubscribing.
My other bugbear are the auto playing videos on Netflix and the use of massive spoilers in episode thumbnails.
As a single consumer in a vast ocean I don't think my opinions will ever be listened to. Right now it's worth putting up with this crap as the benefits outweigh the cost but if it gets any worse I'll be unsubscribing.
This is a great example of why I still prefer torrenting films and TV shows as opposed to using my wife’s Netflix sub: the pirated media is better!
Netflix and Hulu and competing with easier to use and more flexible pirated media, whether they like it or not. The consistency and flexibility of the VLC interface (or whatever media player you choose) is vastly better than whatever features a Netflix PM is trying to push to juice their metrics.
(I won’t even get into unskippable screens on Blu-Ray discs which are removed on the pirate version.)
Netflix and Hulu and competing with easier to use and more flexible pirated media, whether they like it or not. The consistency and flexibility of the VLC interface (or whatever media player you choose) is vastly better than whatever features a Netflix PM is trying to push to juice their metrics.
(I won’t even get into unskippable screens on Blu-Ray discs which are removed on the pirate version.)
Yeah, piracy is almost always the better service. How the hell can a bunch of enthusiasts come up with a better service than multi-billion dollar companies? They seriously need to stop and rethink their industry. When I use my Netflix I get a horribly compressed "high definition" picture, annoying autoplaying ads for shows I don't care about and a constantly decreasing amount of content. Piracy offers the opposite of all that: high quality encodes, no bullshit ads anywhere and complete collections of everything.
First, I dispute that piracy is really better. Amazon and netflix generally work easier than piracy. My, um friend, has radarr + usenet + plex, and its work pretty well 80%. But subtitles are often a problem. Unpacking/par checking sometimes takes forever. Sometimes the decoder in plex doesn't really work. Sometimes the movie has been DMCA'd off the use net servers. Private trackers involve sucking up to to 15 year old polish kids who run their service like the Stazi.
You can usually find everything you want, but sometimes it requires some time.
I don't have a large 4k tv, so maybe I'm not appreciating how bad the streaming movies look.
But Netflix, Amazon, itunes, Vudo, etc. are all way easier services to use.
Second, they are targeting the masses, who probably like a 30 second preview for another show and don't care how 4k is encoded. In my experience, about 50% of people with high def TV's didn't even set up high def cable packages.
You can usually find everything you want, but sometimes it requires some time.
I don't have a large 4k tv, so maybe I'm not appreciating how bad the streaming movies look.
But Netflix, Amazon, itunes, Vudo, etc. are all way easier services to use.
Second, they are targeting the masses, who probably like a 30 second preview for another show and don't care how 4k is encoded. In my experience, about 50% of people with high def TV's didn't even set up high def cable packages.
The reason piracy is perceived to be better is agency. With Netflix/whatever, you have zero agency if something you want isn't there, other than signing up for some other streaming service.
Even if it's hard to find something on public trackers with the right dubs/subtitles, it's rarely impossible for popular content. And if the subtitles are bad, you can, for example, download a different lower quality rip and pull the subtitles off that. The point is, in this system the user has control over the data they are consuming. This is infinitely preferable to some people than the chains of DRM.
Even if it's hard to find something on public trackers with the right dubs/subtitles, it's rarely impossible for popular content. And if the subtitles are bad, you can, for example, download a different lower quality rip and pull the subtitles off that. The point is, in this system the user has control over the data they are consuming. This is infinitely preferable to some people than the chains of DRM.
Agreed. I use and love Plex (subtitles are less of an issue since they added the ability to automatically find subtitles for shows/movies), but people who say the experience is better are forgetting the amount of time and effort you need to find a reliable torrent site, manage the torrents, and set up the plex server.
It's not a huge amount of work by any means, but for many people it's probably insurmountable. Let alone when you compare it to the work involved to use a streaming service:
1. Sign up 2. Enter CC info 3. Done
It's not a huge amount of work by any means, but for many people it's probably insurmountable. Let alone when you compare it to the work involved to use a streaming service:
1. Sign up 2. Enter CC info 3. Done
Ease of use depends on your computer literacy, I think. For me it involves pasting the IMDB ID into a fairly popular public torrent site (eg. tt0095560) and feed the magnet link to Transmission running on my storage server. When it's done, it gets picked up by LibreELEC and is ready to watch. Could my mother use this? No. But you don't need a computer science degree to do this either.
When Netflix launched in Denmark, I immedately jumped on it. It used to have endless amounts of great content, and was way more convenient than piracy. Now it's just filled with trash, and I can never find what I want to watch. Piracy has again become more convenient.
When Netflix launched in Denmark, I immedately jumped on it. It used to have endless amounts of great content, and was way more convenient than piracy. Now it's just filled with trash, and I can never find what I want to watch. Piracy has again become more convenient.
Exactly. 5 weeks ago I needed CBS All Access to watch an NFL game and I figured I'd watch ST Discovery and the Stand too. I had access in 3 clicks on Roku in the Amazon prime channel. I can cancel at anytime.
My wife wanted to watch the Borne Identity and my um friend had figure out why Radarr blacklisted a bunch of releases then wait for it to download and un-par (which took 5x longer than the download). I came back into the living room 15 minutes later and found my wife just watching it with commercials on Peacock.
During a break I convinced her to switch to plex since it didn't have commercials. But then we had to pause the movie and fumble with subtitles for the scenes in the swiss bank. First downloaded set didn't match the timestamps. Second did, but it was like 5 minutes. "Why couldn't you just let me watch in on NBC HONEY?"
My wife wanted to watch the Borne Identity and my um friend had figure out why Radarr blacklisted a bunch of releases then wait for it to download and un-par (which took 5x longer than the download). I came back into the living room 15 minutes later and found my wife just watching it with commercials on Peacock.
During a break I convinced her to switch to plex since it didn't have commercials. But then we had to pause the movie and fumble with subtitles for the scenes in the swiss bank. First downloaded set didn't match the timestamps. Second did, but it was like 5 minutes. "Why couldn't you just let me watch in on NBC HONEY?"
When I said piracy was the better service, what I meant is it offered much higher quality, not that it was easier to use. Piracy actually takes a ton of work. Of course paying for a streaming subscription is the easiest solution: people just pay and enjoy what it offers. The problem is the fact they consistently offer the lowest quality product.
1. Horrible video compression to save bandwidth
When they offer users high definition content, they're actually talking about the resolution of the image. The quality and detail of the image will almost always be much worse if compared to another source such as Blu-Rays. Netflix somehow manages to add compression artifacts to nearly 100% black frames. Scenes with a lot of movement are actually painful to watch.
Compare that to the obssessive attention to detail you can often find in piracy communities and the winner is obvious.
2. Censorship
These services aren't afraid to cut content in order to broaden their audiences. They may even be required to do it by law. Pirates obviously don't have these problems.
3. Annoying copyright issues nobody cares about
Netflix once had Terminator 1 and 3 but not 2, as well as Spider Man 1 and 3 but not 2. Was the license for these movies too expensive for them? Who knows? Who cares?
Want to watch a classic film? An influential film? Chances are it's not on Netflix. Where is it then? Who knows... Maybe not actually available at all anywhere no matter where you look.
Piracy just ignores these issues. As a result it gives you access to almost everything humanity has ever created.
4. DRM
Netflix won't give you access to their precious 4k+ streams if it feels your device isn't locked down enough. Disney is even more aggressive with these measures. Even on my perfectly locked down PS4 system it won't let me download content ahead of time. Apparently they think network connections are reliable.
Pirates simply don't have these problems.
5. Superior technology
Netflix's video player is garbage compared to mpv. The video players of every other streaming service manage to be even worse. It's not just the basic-ness of it either: sometimes it stutters and falls out of sync with the audio, sometimes it screws up the rendering of subtitles...
The one area where streaming service technology wins is their ability to offer alternate audio streams.
1. Horrible video compression to save bandwidth
When they offer users high definition content, they're actually talking about the resolution of the image. The quality and detail of the image will almost always be much worse if compared to another source such as Blu-Rays. Netflix somehow manages to add compression artifacts to nearly 100% black frames. Scenes with a lot of movement are actually painful to watch.
Compare that to the obssessive attention to detail you can often find in piracy communities and the winner is obvious.
2. Censorship
These services aren't afraid to cut content in order to broaden their audiences. They may even be required to do it by law. Pirates obviously don't have these problems.
3. Annoying copyright issues nobody cares about
Netflix once had Terminator 1 and 3 but not 2, as well as Spider Man 1 and 3 but not 2. Was the license for these movies too expensive for them? Who knows? Who cares?
Want to watch a classic film? An influential film? Chances are it's not on Netflix. Where is it then? Who knows... Maybe not actually available at all anywhere no matter where you look.
Piracy just ignores these issues. As a result it gives you access to almost everything humanity has ever created.
4. DRM
Netflix won't give you access to their precious 4k+ streams if it feels your device isn't locked down enough. Disney is even more aggressive with these measures. Even on my perfectly locked down PS4 system it won't let me download content ahead of time. Apparently they think network connections are reliable.
Pirates simply don't have these problems.
5. Superior technology
Netflix's video player is garbage compared to mpv. The video players of every other streaming service manage to be even worse. It's not just the basic-ness of it either: sometimes it stutters and falls out of sync with the audio, sometimes it screws up the rendering of subtitles...
The one area where streaming service technology wins is their ability to offer alternate audio streams.
Another point, cloud service is extremely unstable. The movie/anime/feature/etc would disappear somedays without any reason and no way to rebase.
For piracy, one just needs to backup. And, this is controlled by user not whatever COMPANY/POLICY.
For piracy, one just needs to backup. And, this is controlled by user not whatever COMPANY/POLICY.
There's a big range between generic streaming and setting up all those usenet (which is probably the most complicated of them all).
Something like https://put.io/ is far easier while still providing all the control you need over files and usually makes them available instantly.
Something like https://put.io/ is far easier while still providing all the control you need over files and usually makes them available instantly.
Oh yes. Especially with the chill institute.
They become multi billion companies by having different incentives (making profit) than the enthusiasts.
I think all creators should have a pirates donations box so pirated content doesn’t impact the creators that much.
Does watching hq torrents of content I have legal access to count? :)
My 960 GPU in the htpc doesn't quite have the bit depth that Netflix wants, therefore it disables 4k entirely. Bought the GPU at the time as it was the first with hardware HECV, has zero issues playing back a 4k encoding by someone else..
My 960 GPU in the htpc doesn't quite have the bit depth that Netflix wants, therefore it disables 4k entirely. Bought the GPU at the time as it was the first with hardware HECV, has zero issues playing back a 4k encoding by someone else..
Wait, can you not play SDR 4K on Netflix?
What happens if you play the first season of Stranger Things, which was produced in 4K but not in HDR?
What happens if you play the first season of Stranger Things, which was produced in 4K but not in HDR?
SDR? Sure. But unless something has changed recently, 4K Netflix on PC requires a particular flavor of Windows DRM that is only supported by NVIDIA GPUs starting with Pascal and Intel integrated graphics starting with Kaby Lake‡.
On a more technical related note, I'd imagine 4K SDR variants of all Netflix HDR productions are generated on the back-end as an output of the same post-production process used to produce SDR prints at lower resolutions for reasons of both creative control an delivery efficiency; HEVC is just a compression algorithm, after all, and mostly orthogonal to matters of colorspace conversion and tone mapping.
See, e.g.,
https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360...
and observe that the example Dolby Vision workflow yields three distinct masters,
1. Dolby Vision (HDR + SDR tone mapping metadata)
2. SDR (generated automatically from the Dolby Vision source)
3. DCI-P3 (for potential theatrical exhibition)
I therefore assume the requirements for 4K SDR playback of SDR and HDR titles are identical.
‡ If and only if said Kaby Lake iGPU is connected to a video output.
I mention this because I can only watch 4K Netflix on my Hades Canyon NUC with the help of a Pascal eGPU, because, while the Kaby Lake iGPU is present and fully functional, all video outputs connect to the NUC's discrete AMD Polaris GPU, which Netflix doesn't support.
DRM sucks.
On a more technical related note, I'd imagine 4K SDR variants of all Netflix HDR productions are generated on the back-end as an output of the same post-production process used to produce SDR prints at lower resolutions for reasons of both creative control an delivery efficiency; HEVC is just a compression algorithm, after all, and mostly orthogonal to matters of colorspace conversion and tone mapping.
See, e.g.,
https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360...
and observe that the example Dolby Vision workflow yields three distinct masters,
1. Dolby Vision (HDR + SDR tone mapping metadata)
2. SDR (generated automatically from the Dolby Vision source)
3. DCI-P3 (for potential theatrical exhibition)
I therefore assume the requirements for 4K SDR playback of SDR and HDR titles are identical.
‡ If and only if said Kaby Lake iGPU is connected to a video output.
I mention this because I can only watch 4K Netflix on my Hades Canyon NUC with the help of a Pascal eGPU, because, while the Kaby Lake iGPU is present and fully functional, all video outputs connect to the NUC's discrete AMD Polaris GPU, which Netflix doesn't support.
DRM sucks.
Excellent reply, thanks very much. My HTPC is ageing, but I like to push the life of my computers to the most. So needing an even better GPU or CPU when it should have been able to downgrade a tad is annoying.
Nothing is really stopping you from paying for the content and pirating it to get the quality you want.
But lets be honest, essentially all pirates just want the content for free.
But lets be honest, essentially all pirates just want the content for free.
Meh? A couple years back, I bought myself a box set of a season of Doctor Who. A taxpayer-funded series. It refused to play on any of my devices, because they were not to the DRM's liking. Torrenting took a fraction of the time I spent trying to debug why I can't watch the content I have actually paid for.
I'd like to bypass the whole system (the middleman army) and give a donation directly to the creator if possible and I do sometimes when I'm awestruck with something. But that is not always possible and rare to matter in the grand scheme of things.
That doesn't really make sense in the context of movies and tv shows. The creators are thousands of people.
> constantly decreasing amount of content
Frankly, this matters less and less if 98% of your offering is "Netflix originals" pulp. After 10 minutes of watching I have a feeling they should pay me for watching this.
In anyone asked me, I'd prefer quality over perceived quantity. Quality needs time, thought, talent.
Frankly, this matters less and less if 98% of your offering is "Netflix originals" pulp. After 10 minutes of watching I have a feeling they should pay me for watching this.
In anyone asked me, I'd prefer quality over perceived quantity. Quality needs time, thought, talent.
If VLC had a slightly prettier interface, a better logo, and more intuitive queueing/playlists, it would be perfect
Okay, I’m sure the logo has meaning to the devs, so they don’t mind it looking like an error message. That’s fair. They aren’t Instagram, they’re not going for the lowest common denominator. And, okay, the UI works, so why fuck with it?
But why doesn’t it play the next video in a directory when you’ve finished the first? Why is the playlist option so hard to find and oddly implemented? Why can’t they update the UI to look like it was at least made for win7?
This sounds like a major gripe, but really it’s not. Everything else is amazing in that app, it’s one of the best, most complete user experiences around, especially for a free app, but it just seems like it has some really obvious problems with fairly minor fixes
Okay, I’m sure the logo has meaning to the devs, so they don’t mind it looking like an error message. That’s fair. They aren’t Instagram, they’re not going for the lowest common denominator. And, okay, the UI works, so why fuck with it?
But why doesn’t it play the next video in a directory when you’ve finished the first? Why is the playlist option so hard to find and oddly implemented? Why can’t they update the UI to look like it was at least made for win7?
This sounds like a major gripe, but really it’s not. Everything else is amazing in that app, it’s one of the best, most complete user experiences around, especially for a free app, but it just seems like it has some really obvious problems with fairly minor fixes
Just drag an entire folder or multiple files into VLC and it'll play everything in order automatically.
I use MPV which has a much more minimal UI and better performance: https://mpv.io/
I use MPV which has a much more minimal UI and better performance: https://mpv.io/
Really? Nowadays ive found it hard to get good 4k hdr downloads of things with seeders. Piracy seems to top out at 1080p at least it bittorrent land
A lot of it is probably caused by demographics - torrents are pretty popular in countries where 4k is not the norm and may not be accessible.
FWIW I have 20/10 vision (twice as sharp as "perfect normal") and have never seen the appeal of retina screens or 4k.
edit: Also the file sizes are vastly larger for 4k for an incremental benefit.
FWIW I have 20/10 vision (twice as sharp as "perfect normal") and have never seen the appeal of retina screens or 4k.
edit: Also the file sizes are vastly larger for 4k for an incremental benefit.
You should see a 1080p vs 4k HDR video of the same thing on an OLED and see the difference. I see the difference all the time. The mandolorian is a good one for that.
I don't have a 4k screen currently but it looks like most TVs support 4k nowadays, so if my TV ever dies, I'll be sure to try this. Thanks for the viewpoint.
Depends on where you're downloading. 4K isn't as prevalent but it's usually out there.
Agreed. Also there are in-between services like Put.IO that provide better UX while handling most of the technical bits: https://put.io/
Ads on Prime on kids content is especially frustrating.
My biggest goal with kids is to help them with their focus and limit exposure to "infinity pools" of content. It's not that I have a problem with the content of the ads, it's that they train kids' brains to want to switch quickly between content the moment a show has a lull.
It creates that FOMO that they might not be watching the most exciting show right now because the ad always makes the other show look way better.
Youtube is of course the epitome of this issue, although disabling the mini-player on kids content helps a little.
My biggest goal with kids is to help them with their focus and limit exposure to "infinity pools" of content. It's not that I have a problem with the content of the ads, it's that they train kids' brains to want to switch quickly between content the moment a show has a lull.
It creates that FOMO that they might not be watching the most exciting show right now because the ad always makes the other show look way better.
Youtube is of course the epitome of this issue, although disabling the mini-player on kids content helps a little.
I do have a problem with the content of the ads on kids videos - I've seen violence in some of them
> My other bugbear are the auto playing videos on Netflix and the use of massive spoilers in episode thumbnails.
You can actually turn off "Autoplay previews" now. You have to log into your account from a web browser, and then look at the Playback settings for the profile you want to change.
You can actually turn off "Autoplay previews" now. You have to log into your account from a web browser, and then look at the Playback settings for the profile you want to change.
What you can’t turn off is the bit where they drop you into another trailer when you’ve just finished watching a series after months of investment. A little time to digest would be real nice.
Every single video app I have on my AppleTV: Netflix, Amazon, Criterion, even Apple’s own TV app, shrinks whatever you are watching down to a thumbnail just before the movie or show ends.
I fucking hate it. Yes, I’m one of those weirdos who sits through to the end when the copyright rolls past and gets pissed off when the lights come on at a theater during the credits.
It is incredibly disrespectful to the film.
This is one of those “good taste” things that I feel like Steve Jobs wouldn’t have tolerated.
It’s especially annoying on some older films with short end credits because it happens before the movie is even over.
I fucking hate it. Yes, I’m one of those weirdos who sits through to the end when the copyright rolls past and gets pissed off when the lights come on at a theater during the credits.
It is incredibly disrespectful to the film.
This is one of those “good taste” things that I feel like Steve Jobs wouldn’t have tolerated.
It’s especially annoying on some older films with short end credits because it happens before the movie is even over.
You should consider moving to Japan then. Theater stays dark until the last line of credits passes. Actually this is nice thing. You can still listen to the music, pay silent respects to the horde of people involved or just contemplate the movie.
many many people in LA stay for the credits too. naturally.
Thanks for staying for the credits! I make credits for a living, so I’m biased, but you’re right that they serve a real artistic purpose, as a gentle transition from the dream world back to the real one. No one likes to be shaken awake and bombarded with a new dream — especially when they haven’t yet made sense of the last one.
> They serve a real artistic purpose, as a gentle transition from the dream world back to the real one. No one likes to be shaken awake and bombarded with a new dream — especially when they haven’t yet made sense of the last one.
This really hits it for me. It's not even the credits that I need, per se, as long as the movie stop playing when it's done, whether with a credits sequence or a simple fade to black.
I waited for Stranger Things to come out on BluRay (currently waiting for the third season), and I'm 100% convinced I had a better experience than someone watching on Netflix, because the episodes actually ended after the credits. For a show few people will get to see this way, the writers really knew how to conclude each episode in just the right spot, so you had a nice place to take a breather and contemplate.
This really hits it for me. It's not even the credits that I need, per se, as long as the movie stop playing when it's done, whether with a credits sequence or a simple fade to black.
I waited for Stranger Things to come out on BluRay (currently waiting for the third season), and I'm 100% convinced I had a better experience than someone watching on Netflix, because the episodes actually ended after the credits. For a show few people will get to see this way, the writers really knew how to conclude each episode in just the right spot, so you had a nice place to take a breather and contemplate.
This reminds me of AMC's Lost finale, where after the end of the show, AMC added a simple shot of a desert island with some lapping waves, just to give viewers thirty seconds to digest everything that had happened.
Of course, this confused the shit out of many viewers, who thought it was part of the show and tried to find meaning in it...
Of course, this confused the shit out of many viewers, who thought it was part of the show and tried to find meaning in it...
I get the sentiment for live performance, but in your own home, I can not relate to this. Vast majority of people in credits are doing a job and getting paid for it, just like any other profession or trade.
We don't pay "respect" to delivery drivers, or to designers and engineers who brings us our gadgets and services in same way. Why should I spend my time and attention on credit rolls? It's not like anyone noticing it.
We don't pay "respect" to delivery drivers, or to designers and engineers who brings us our gadgets and services in same way. Why should I spend my time and attention on credit rolls? It's not like anyone noticing it.
Perhaps I should have said it's disrespectful of me, the audience member. It should be my decision whether to watch to the end or not.
I really enjoy movie watching. I use the credits to contemplate what I just watched. Sometimes to see who played specific roles, or what music was in the film, or the locations. So yes, I do watch the credits.
I know most people don't. But that decision should be mine or yours.
I really enjoy movie watching. I use the credits to contemplate what I just watched. Sometimes to see who played specific roles, or what music was in the film, or the locations. So yes, I do watch the credits.
I know most people don't. But that decision should be mine or yours.
You don't tip? Tips are showing your respect for deliveries. Also, most gadgets I've seen have a screen that can be viewed with credits in them, as well as most software. Video games have credits too. Books have credits too, right there on the cover and is probably what grabs your attention more than the title.
No, I hardly ever tip my delivery drivers. Tip is not expected for normal service here, unlike USA. If someone goes above and beyond, you can tip but there is no obligation. We have minimum wage system and most in my area are paid above that.
Most popular gadgets with screens, smartphones, doesn’t have credits, not the most popular apps on App Store apart from couple of words “From Facebook”, “By Google” etc. It’s not considered “incredibly disrespectful” to not read credits in apps or acknowledgments in books that have it listed. It’s a personal preference to read or skip them. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
Most popular gadgets with screens, smartphones, doesn’t have credits, not the most popular apps on App Store apart from couple of words “From Facebook”, “By Google” etc. It’s not considered “incredibly disrespectful” to not read credits in apps or acknowledgments in books that have it listed. It’s a personal preference to read or skip them. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
Yes, when was the last time you actually saw the credits on those devices? Like who is the lead designer of your phone? Who is the lead programmer of the last game you played?
There are credits in the About menu of about 50% of the programs I use each day.
There are even credits in the loading screen of Adobe Photoshop.
There are even credits in the loading screen of Adobe Photoshop.
That is not my point. Things being there doesn't make them important
They are so not important that the company decided that is the first thing you should see every single time you launch the app.
Of the services you listed, I only have Netflix. I hated that too, fortunately you can disable it [0]. Perhaps your other services have a similar setting.
[0] - https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102
[0] - https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102
Neither of those settings help on web. You can stop the previews when you’re browsing around. And you can stop the auto play of the next episode. I have both of those turned off. The annoying one I get hit with (on web) is that when you get to the end of a whole series (or movie, I guess) they roll more or less straight into another trailer.
Bojack Horseman; I laughed, I cried, I lived...I jumped up out of my seat after six seasons to turn off some offensive trailer when it was finally over.
Bojack Horseman; I laughed, I cried, I lived...I jumped up out of my seat after six seasons to turn off some offensive trailer when it was finally over.
That setting doesn't disable the shrinking of a movie down to a thumbnail at the end. It only disables the auto-starting of the next episode of a TV show.
Huh, fixed it for me on my Chromecast. IIRC it would shrink down to show what was autoplaying next, so when I disabled that it stopped shrinking.
Thanks for the info. It's possible I'm mistaken or that it behaves differently for movies vs TV shows. I'll pay attention tonight and update back here. If it is behaving differently between platforms, that seems like a bug I should report to Netflix.
Confirmed I have the auto play settings off but at the end of a movie just as the credits roll the Apple TV Netflix app shrinks the movie to a thumbnail. :-(
> It is incredibly disrespectful to the film.
I found this attitude a bit confusing. The film makers are not there, who are you showing respect to? Also, do you read each crew members name? If not, what's the point of sitting through it?
I found this attitude a bit confusing. The film makers are not there, who are you showing respect to? Also, do you read each crew members name? If not, what's the point of sitting through it?
To me, it's like speaking loudly in a library, or people horse-playing in a museum. Perhaps it's more accurate to say it's disrespectful of the audience.
I want to be in control of whether or not to watch to the very end. It should be my choice.
I want to be in control of whether or not to watch to the very end. It should be my choice.
Your "time to digest" is Netflix's "fleeting window of opportunity to keep you engaged" or whatever businessy term describes that.
They aren't Facebook. They just need to keep me subscribed, not engaged.
I bet someone has an engagement OKR anyway, though.
I bet someone has an engagement OKR anyway, though.
Hours of video watched per month is metric Netflix tries to optimize, because it predicts churn. If a customer is spending decreasing hours on Netflix and watching Disney instead, they are more likely to cancel.
Goodhart's law applies. If a customer is watching more Netflix because they are binging some fantastic new context, that’s great for Netflix. If the customer watching more because the app keeps auto playing something they didn’t ask for and gradually pisses them off, not so good. Netflix might have better ways of measuring customer satisfaction that can tell if these behaviors make the customer more satisfied overall.
Goodhart's law applies. If a customer is watching more Netflix because they are binging some fantastic new context, that’s great for Netflix. If the customer watching more because the app keeps auto playing something they didn’t ask for and gradually pisses them off, not so good. Netflix might have better ways of measuring customer satisfaction that can tell if these behaviors make the customer more satisfied overall.
Yep, this is what I hate. Finishing a TV show, taking it all in, only to find myself scrambling for the remote to press Watch Credits so it doesn’t move on to some random trailer.
The Kodi Netflix add-on might not have the best interface, but at least it doesn’t do stuff like this!
The Kodi Netflix add-on might not have the best interface, but at least it doesn’t do stuff like this!
Note that this anti anti feature was introduced quietly so not everyone may have noticed it yet.
What you still can’t turn off AFAIK is the video starting to play in the background if you go to the “more info” menu. At least on the Android TV app.
I have it turned off in my profile, which works nearly everywhere, but doesn't have any effect on the Apple TV netflix app.
oh cool
> Ads on Amazon Prime are infuriating. And I can't help think how annoying it must be for people with disabilities.
I usually watch TV with subtitles on (it means I can have the volume a little lower), and I find that cases where pre-roll ads are inserted either don't adjust the subtitle sync or don't adjust it properly. Amazon's subtitles are generally 1-2s ahead of the video, which is just enough to let the air out of a big reveal or ruin a joke.
I usually watch TV with subtitles on (it means I can have the volume a little lower), and I find that cases where pre-roll ads are inserted either don't adjust the subtitle sync or don't adjust it properly. Amazon's subtitles are generally 1-2s ahead of the video, which is just enough to let the air out of a big reveal or ruin a joke.
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> auto playing videos on Netflix
You can now disable this at the account level. They added the option a few months back.
You can now disable this at the account level. They added the option a few months back.
They removed this feature and I like the rollover previews. Where can you change this?
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Pretty annoying when they run you trailers of a sequel before you even finished the first one because 'you might be interested' - sometimes even the thumbnail is a spoiler.
My current favourite sketch about popup ads: https://twitter.com/thepincomedy/status/1349299943576662017?...
Actually, ads on Prime videos are for their other shows, and skippable. I discovered nice shows that way.
But I agree, we should have at least 2 easy options in settings:
- Never show ads for other shows - Always skip opening themes
- Never show ads for other shows - Always skip opening themes
> Ads on Amazon Prime are infuriating. And I can't help think how annoying it must be for people with disabilities.
Or people with small kids.
Or people with small kids.
Yes wtf, I'm already paying and trying to watch a series I enjoy, stop pestering me. Just one of many dark patterns at Amazon, cancelling Prime is so difficult that Norwegan Consumer Council and 15 others yesterday started a legal fight with Amazon: https://www.forbrukerradet.no/siste-nytt/amazon-manipulates-...
The video there is quite aggravating.
As if that wasn't enough, the full complaint shows that after all that scrolling and clicking (I lost count), an email is sent with a big yellow button, and the website starts showing the same button, "Continue your membership", which re-subscribes with a single click.
Anyone who thinks charging a user $99 with a single click and no explanation near the button should be sent to UX jail (where the only way to get food is to come up with a grep command the warden needs to find part of a street address).
A recurring $99 -- I can't think of any other subscription service that doesn't take you through an explicit approval for signing up.
I've cancelled Prime, now they hit me with week long delivery times which after a day are reduced by half or less, just to get me back on Prime.
I still have prime, and a good half of my "next day shipping" deliveries are delayed by a day, two days or even more.
Granted, the current situation is problematic, but this happened even before and since you are prime, you don't get any money back or something like that. It's just bad luck then.
Now, you might think you could rely on the services where you pay extra for same-day delivery or morning next day. But those end up missing the delivery window a good half of the times I used them - even before the pandemic.
Next day or same day delivery just isn't something that seems to work reliably here in Western Europe.
I know companies where a local driver will literally get in a car and bring me what I need right away, but that doesn't scale to Amazon levels.
Given that prime delivery rarely holds its promise, it is no surprise that Amazon needs to make non-prime delivery even less attractive.
But you know, there are other vendors! Plus, you are less likely to get a fake product if you order directly from there.
Granted, the current situation is problematic, but this happened even before and since you are prime, you don't get any money back or something like that. It's just bad luck then.
Now, you might think you could rely on the services where you pay extra for same-day delivery or morning next day. But those end up missing the delivery window a good half of the times I used them - even before the pandemic.
Next day or same day delivery just isn't something that seems to work reliably here in Western Europe.
I know companies where a local driver will literally get in a car and bring me what I need right away, but that doesn't scale to Amazon levels.
Given that prime delivery rarely holds its promise, it is no surprise that Amazon needs to make non-prime delivery even less attractive.
But you know, there are other vendors! Plus, you are less likely to get a fake product if you order directly from there.
Not sure if it still applies since I cancelled prime, but you can contact Amazon any time a package is late, and they will give you credits or extensions to your Prime sub. That was in the US a year or so ago.
It's amazing to me how long deliveries take if you're not prime. Of course the actual delivery is just as fast, they just wait a few days to fill the order.
And the dark patterns on placing an order without re-upping Prime feels like the fake download buttons on download.com without an ad blocker.
And the dark patterns on placing an order without re-upping Prime feels like the fake download buttons on download.com without an ad blocker.
I have Prime and, because many of my orders are for business use, I keep being invited to AmazonBusiness where I can download invoices (which I can do already) and buy another kind of Prime or start paying for deliveries again?
That's normal for non-prime. You get thrown onto the back of the priority queue but at the same time get on the wild scheduling ride their systems take.
I just wait for the free month of prime offers and do my Amazon shopping only during that time. Why pay when they keep giving it to me a few times a year.
I'm receiving scam calls from India saying "Your Amazon Prime subscription is about to renew, please talk to our representative if you wish to cancel". If Amazon Prime was easy to cancel this scam wouldn't exist.
(I actually tried going along with the scam, but his call centre was so noisy he couldn't hear what I was saying, ffs.)
(I actually tried going along with the scam, but his call centre was so noisy he couldn't hear what I was saying, ffs.)
I called Amazon to cancel Prime. I wanted them to record my reason for cancelling. And I wanted them to spend some extra money answering my phone call and talking to me.
Honestly, the most annoying thing about this is when they show you an advert for a series that you have already watched. I mean it's not like they don't have the data already...
The worst - YouTube TV
They show you ads for YouTube TV, literally while are you watching TV with your paid YouTube TV subscription.
How many ad dollars are just being flushed down the drain...
They show you ads for YouTube TV, literally while are you watching TV with your paid YouTube TV subscription.
How many ad dollars are just being flushed down the drain...
"already have it" seems like a fairly simple, common, and oh so fustrating problems especially for services that already know your email. Right now the worst offender for me is IBKR for egigh I get ~10 ads per day on YouTube despite both being linked the the same IP/email/device/browser as he service.
Likewise with Amazon showing you an ad for a product you literally bought minutes ago as if you'd want to buy another before the first arrives or LinkedIn recruiters trying recruit you to your current role.
Specialty equipment like for photography/cycling or 3d printing is the worst. Buy a Sony camera or Peak design tripod and you'll get ads for the same thing for a year. Like accessories and complementary products I'd understand but come on. Just how many thousand dollar cameras do you expect me to buy per month/year?!
Likewise with Amazon showing you an ad for a product you literally bought minutes ago as if you'd want to buy another before the first arrives or LinkedIn recruiters trying recruit you to your current role.
Specialty equipment like for photography/cycling or 3d printing is the worst. Buy a Sony camera or Peak design tripod and you'll get ads for the same thing for a year. Like accessories and complementary products I'd understand but come on. Just how many thousand dollar cameras do you expect me to buy per month/year?!
Spot on, I’ve noticed it too. It’s crazy. I can only imagine the XX% of ad spend that could be optimized if this problem was solved across the industry, and the millions of dollars that would be saved...from a basic query optimization? I guess it has to be a harder problem than that, otherwise it wouldn’t be an issue, but sheesh is it ridiculous from the outside looking in.
Like I understand the complexity in optimizing that query for Amazon and personalized product history, etc.
But YouTubeTV for Pete’s sake, is a static property of the network. It doesn’t change for anyone already watching YTV and therefore subscribed.
Just don’t put YTV ads on the YTV network. Simple as that. Someone legit went and added them.
“Already have it”!!!
Like I understand the complexity in optimizing that query for Amazon and personalized product history, etc.
But YouTubeTV for Pete’s sake, is a static property of the network. It doesn’t change for anyone already watching YTV and therefore subscribed.
Just don’t put YTV ads on the YTV network. Simple as that. Someone legit went and added them.
“Already have it”!!!
This is meant to be a replacement for normal cable....which also shows ads. As far as I know there is NO live cable service that is ad-free.
There are also normal ads for third parties. So not a replacement. They just also run their own ads.
And no, it’s not an ad placeholder. Because they have that too. There is a scene that says “you’re watching YoutubeTV, your show will resume momentarily” while a yellow ad bar progresses.
They aren’t also analog ads. You can tell when YTV is playing back an ad recorded within the show, vs when they flip the stream from content to ad content because the UI changes.
Nope, from what I can tell, they definitely just show their own ads to their customers.
When I had Dish, I saw a lot of DirectTV ads. That makes sense. But I never saw Dish advertising Dish. Maybe I just never paid attention.
And no, it’s not an ad placeholder. Because they have that too. There is a scene that says “you’re watching YoutubeTV, your show will resume momentarily” while a yellow ad bar progresses.
They aren’t also analog ads. You can tell when YTV is playing back an ad recorded within the show, vs when they flip the stream from content to ad content because the UI changes.
Nope, from what I can tell, they definitely just show their own ads to their customers.
When I had Dish, I saw a lot of DirectTV ads. That makes sense. But I never saw Dish advertising Dish. Maybe I just never paid attention.
>This is meant to be a replacement for normal cable....which also shows ads. As far as I know there is NO live cable service that is ad-free.
HBO doesn't show commercials. It DOES use the time between two shows (starting on the hour or half hour) to preview other shows on the same network but I find these slightly less annoying that paid-for ads.
HBO doesn't show commercials. It DOES use the time between two shows (starting on the hour or half hour) to preview other shows on the same network but I find these slightly less annoying that paid-for ads.
When cable came out it was ad free. That was one of the selling points actually.
You also can't change the UI language with Prime Video. I'm an American in Germany, no option to use English.
On top of that, Prime makes it particularly hard for you to use english. No option to make english the default language for playback. If you switch to english for an episode, the next one starts in german again....
On my samsung TV you can't even change the language from within the menu while watching, you have to close playback, go to playback settings of the movie, change the language, go back to the movie's main menu and then start the movie again.
On my samsung TV you can't even change the language from within the menu while watching, you have to close playback, go to playback settings of the movie, change the language, go back to the movie's main menu and then start the movie again.
For some reason, Amazon defaults me to German subtitles, despite me being an American in America.
I hate the ads on Amazon Prime! The same ad, playing over and over every. single. time. And always for something I have no desire to watch, not in the slightest; something slightly offensive to be shown once and definitely offensive to be shown over and over and over.
First world problem, I know. But still highly annoying.
First world problem, I know. But still highly annoying.
If anyone from Amazon video sees this, I want you to know this is the primary reason I’ve ignored hiring requests from that team (and avoided consuming prime content on prime.) The non-optional ads are infuriating.
I personally don't mind the ads on Amazon Prime because they're instantly skippable and do actually show things I might be interested in. Plus they don't show random shit like ads for a car or a TV or something. I don't sit and browse Amazon (because the browsing experience on Amazon prime is dogshit), so I go straight to anything I want to watch on there. The only opportunity to discover new shows on there is usually from outside of Amazon, or their pre-roll ads.
Also, they should stop showing me ads for things I've watched.
They better not make them unskippable ever.
Also, they should stop showing me ads for things I've watched.
They better not make them unskippable ever.
I don’t think I’ve ever received an ad on Prime Video. Is it an American thing? Do they happen in the U.K. too?
It might be the case that my DNS server (basically PiHole but something I built before PiHole was a thing) is blocking them. However it doesn’t stop inlined ads from YouTube, 4oD, Twitch and other streaming / on demand services.
It might be the case that my DNS server (basically PiHole but something I built before PiHole was a thing) is blocking them. However it doesn’t stop inlined ads from YouTube, 4oD, Twitch and other streaming / on demand services.
I'm in UK, using Fire stick in telly, shows skippable ads.
I don’t get ads. Not on a fire stick, via a web browser nor on the LG TV app. Not even a skippable ad. Nothing.
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"instantly skippable" depends on device I think. For a long time, there was no "Skip" button in the Roku app, you could only manually forward through it. It has now been added, but very possible there are apps on other devices still missing that feature
My experience - I have a TCL Roku TV, no skip button on the remote. When the promos play on Amazon Prime a Skip control (link? button?) appears on the lower left of the screen with focus. If I press OK on my remote it activates and goes right to the content.
Yep, exactly same in app on regular Rokus - I was referring to the fact that the on-screen "Skip" is a relatively recent addition (at least on my Roku, Roku Express)
The Prime Video experience is slightly better after a recent update. Now when you quickly add something to your watch list, it doesn’t freak out and forget where it was/load entirely new genres.
The ads Amazon added to Twitch prime have been brutal. Nothing re-engaged me in the adblock war than their constant barrage there.
> Same with the ads for Amazon videos on Amazon Prime.
On some smart TVs, there's an explicit (or on-screen) button to skip these. If you don't see a skip button and you have a Fire TV remote, you can press the >> double arrow button to skip these.
I agree that there should be an option to disable these altogether, like how Netflix offers an option to disable video previews.
On some smart TVs, there's an explicit (or on-screen) button to skip these. If you don't see a skip button and you have a Fire TV remote, you can press the >> double arrow button to skip these.
I agree that there should be an option to disable these altogether, like how Netflix offers an option to disable video previews.
Same on Cable TV. It's full of ads in the USA - and that's after you pay $100 per month for a cable subscription.
I am cancelling it the moment the expanse is over.
Worst part is, prime crashes my TV's video player. Once that happens I am not able to play any video at all, even on other apps. And ads made it worse since it usually crashes as I switch videos and adds are more video switching.
Worst part is, prime crashes my TV's video player. Once that happens I am not able to play any video at all, even on other apps. And ads made it worse since it usually crashes as I switch videos and adds are more video switching.
That and the terrible video quality is what makes me not prolong prime after some free time we got few months ago with some other product. It's like watching 480p Youtube on a 4k tv most of the time. Netflix or Youtube have zero issues like that...
They're annoying, I don't want a trailer recommending me stuff before I watch something, there's already recommendations showing up visually in the list of contents when you choose something..
And yes Amazon, they are ads.
And yes Amazon, they are ads.
Pay for your content but then torrent the actual viewing experience. Problem solved - on all platforms.
I do torrent movies consistently even though I could watch them directly through my subscription, mainly because of two reasons:
A) Usually my VPN is active and I don't want to shut it down just that netflix/amazon allows my to watch something
B) I like setting the playback speed to ~1.1 of my media player, which is not supported by any streaming provider I'm subscribed to.
A) Usually my VPN is active and I don't want to shut it down just that netflix/amazon allows my to watch something
B) I like setting the playback speed to ~1.1 of my media player, which is not supported by any streaming provider I'm subscribed to.
You could setup you VPN just on your torrent client
I just blocked all notifications from the Amazon app. Works great.
but they're promoting other Amazon shows and they can't be skipped! what possible other framing could there be.
I still have a free Dropbox account but I'm not buying.
I had 16GB permanent at some point (and up to 50GB temporarily for various promotions) but at some point they cut my account to 10 for no good reason at acted dumb when I asked them about it.
Microsoft gave me 5GB extra for uploading photos and shortly afterwards reduced it, forcing me to delete them, luckily I had them backed up elsewhere.
Google Photos have started trying to monetize what they promised for free to (kind of expected, but with Google they could also have decided to shutter it).
On one hand: we cannot expect companies to give things away for free.
On the other hand: when they've given things away for free unforced it doesn't make them look good when they take away what they gave away.
I now go with hetzner.com or something similar. It is paid and while that doesn't guarantee that they won't do something stupid at least they haven't a massive history of doing stupid things unforced.
I had 16GB permanent at some point (and up to 50GB temporarily for various promotions) but at some point they cut my account to 10 for no good reason at acted dumb when I asked them about it.
Microsoft gave me 5GB extra for uploading photos and shortly afterwards reduced it, forcing me to delete them, luckily I had them backed up elsewhere.
Google Photos have started trying to monetize what they promised for free to (kind of expected, but with Google they could also have decided to shutter it).
On one hand: we cannot expect companies to give things away for free.
On the other hand: when they've given things away for free unforced it doesn't make them look good when they take away what they gave away.
I now go with hetzner.com or something similar. It is paid and while that doesn't guarantee that they won't do something stupid at least they haven't a massive history of doing stupid things unforced.
Companies throughout history have used the promotional idea of giving something away for free or drastically reduced rates for a new something in order to attract attention. Even drug dealers are known for "the first one's free" type of setup. Storage units have "first month free", cable companies "sign up now for 3 months at $49/mo for 6 months" kind of stuff. It wasn't until sleazy startups and SaaS types come along that do things like "free and always will be" *until we realize we were not good business people and can't run a business like that. Everything else has been regulated up the wazoo, but for some reason tech has been able to avoid these regulations OR flat out ignored them under the guise of "disrupting" the markets.
Washington Post and NY Times digital subscriptions do the same thing. If you subscribe to either, you can try cancelling and they’ll restore the reasonable price.
I’ve just started moving big files into S3/Glacier/B2 (Backblaze API compatible S3 competitor). If you know how to use these tools, they’re far more long term reliable than any Dropbox like service in terms of offering and pricing.
> they just couldn't grok the reason
It's hard to make someone understand something when their salary (and entire reputation - given that increasing engagement/retention by X% is a big selling point on a resume) depends on not understanding it.
It's hard to make someone understand something when their salary (and entire reputation - given that increasing engagement/retention by X% is a big selling point on a resume) depends on not understanding it.
This is usually it! As developers, we have all worked on features where it was obvious that users wouldn’t want it, but the feature would juice some metric so it was prioritized. Some time between that initial meeting about how this will juice the metric and launch, Product convinced themselves that users would actually want it and are not prepared to accept the feature’s failure. Finally, when indeed users don’t want to use it, it would get pushed at them repeatedly, through sales and through dark UI patterns. Tale as old as time...
This is what happens when you plan your product not from user need but from company need.
This is what happens when you plan your product not from user need but from company need.
Yes, but usually in that situation, the misunderstanding is intentional. This seemed a genuine inability to understand why I would quit over "a simple upsell".
I am sure the inability to understand that it was a dark pattern to have no [X] or [SKIP] button was intentional :-)
I am sure the inability to understand that it was a dark pattern to have no [X] or [SKIP] button was intentional :-)
> This seemed a genuine inability to understand why I would quit over "a simple upsell".
Similar situation with major retail chains delivering brochures to a doorstep, or a bank clerk upselling bank credit and investment funds. It's not inability to understand, they are financially rewarded by doing this to you and their supervisors are malicious sociopaths. Their attitude is "why this person doesn't let me do my job".
Similar situation with major retail chains delivering brochures to a doorstep, or a bank clerk upselling bank credit and investment funds. It's not inability to understand, they are financially rewarded by doing this to you and their supervisors are malicious sociopaths. Their attitude is "why this person doesn't let me do my job".
Well that was simply arrogance that can be see in almost every large organizations: they believe everyone would like their idea. The problem maybe most people do like their idea but there would be always someone does not.
Privately I left Dropbox long ago when they stop supporting bit-by-bit comparison, and moved into chunk-by-chunk check. Found out hard way when detached VeryCrypt secure trunk and attached it day later on another machine. Started scratching my head what the heck. Upon checking, the file was not synced/uploaded and that's how I managed to discover their change.
Business-wise, it was a stuck forced update that made me drop them (pun intended). At some version it did not want to open anymore before update. Fine. The problem was that you could not download update; it was downloader you download and that downloader himself pick file over the internet to download. Problem is the folder and file name was always different causing my simplewall (best firewall I know for Windows 10) to block the file each single time. Before I had chance to fiddle with firewall settings - something I never like doing - I was already registered into lifetime 2TB offer with pCloud, including their "Cyrpto" package for $299 one-time. Never looked back. And also upload speeds I found much faster than DropBox. As of syncing... I think its decent enough. Never had problem. Although their local drive logic is tad different - you are mounting a remote drive which is not equally convenient like DropBox local folder, but at least pCloud does not check folder for changes non-stop.
Disclaimer: have nothing to do with pCloud as a company, just their happy client.
Business-wise, it was a stuck forced update that made me drop them (pun intended). At some version it did not want to open anymore before update. Fine. The problem was that you could not download update; it was downloader you download and that downloader himself pick file over the internet to download. Problem is the folder and file name was always different causing my simplewall (best firewall I know for Windows 10) to block the file each single time. Before I had chance to fiddle with firewall settings - something I never like doing - I was already registered into lifetime 2TB offer with pCloud, including their "Cyrpto" package for $299 one-time. Never looked back. And also upload speeds I found much faster than DropBox. As of syncing... I think its decent enough. Never had problem. Although their local drive logic is tad different - you are mounting a remote drive which is not equally convenient like DropBox local folder, but at least pCloud does not check folder for changes non-stop.
Disclaimer: have nothing to do with pCloud as a company, just their happy client.
I use Dropbox the same way you did: As a screwdriver. This means, it does its job, it does it well, I'm not looking to make it a part of my life beyond that. I don't want new features or collaboration, and I definitely don't want to pay more than I do or see ads.
The screwdriver-manufacturing business is not very profitable, so nobody wants to be in it.
The screwdriver-manufacturing business is not very profitable, so nobody wants to be in it.
Good analogy; my hammer manufacturer, Evernote, also has this disease. No, I don't want chat or Evernote for Business ...
> I actually had a conversation with a product manager; I checked the yes you can contact me when I cancelled my account. They simply refused to admit that an upsell was a advertisement and that disrupting my workflow on my paid, professional account for an ad was wrong.
I'm not in the slightest bit surprised. As product management has exploded as a role (look at the number of courses, books, etc.) there has been a huge influx of people with less experience, and most importantly perhaps, less breadth of experience. This is a good thing in the long-term, but there will be growing pains.
I feel like the usual trope for programmers is that "PMs aren't technical enough", but the bigger issue for companies is that they don't have a breadth of experience and develop a narrower set of skills than they historically have. They smart and driven, but cost is what you are seeing with the cognitive dissonance.
This is less noticeable in smaller startups. The problem is exacerbated in more mature products like Dropbox where they are trying to move an existing user base onto a higher profit line of products. You need to have the broader base that PMs at legacy companies (e.g. Microsoft) have to make this shift. Further, it's harder to appear credible with enterprise customers beyond shadow IT.
I'm not in the slightest bit surprised. As product management has exploded as a role (look at the number of courses, books, etc.) there has been a huge influx of people with less experience, and most importantly perhaps, less breadth of experience. This is a good thing in the long-term, but there will be growing pains.
I feel like the usual trope for programmers is that "PMs aren't technical enough", but the bigger issue for companies is that they don't have a breadth of experience and develop a narrower set of skills than they historically have. They smart and driven, but cost is what you are seeing with the cognitive dissonance.
This is less noticeable in smaller startups. The problem is exacerbated in more mature products like Dropbox where they are trying to move an existing user base onto a higher profit line of products. You need to have the broader base that PMs at legacy companies (e.g. Microsoft) have to make this shift. Further, it's harder to appear credible with enterprise customers beyond shadow IT.
I dropped them when they restricted free accounts to three devices and I suddenly got inundated with calls from annoyed family and friends to whom I'd spent five years evangelizing.
I stopped using Dropbox when they stopped allowing bulk note exports in Paper. Paper is so good, but it's ruined by their moat-building. They seem to be headed down a path of increasingly dark patterns.
I immediately download all my Paper notes. On the upside, the bulk downloading option is still available:
Dropbox Paper > Your Icon > Download docs you created.
Dropbox Paper > Your Icon > Download docs you created.
I wouldn't have moved away from Dropbox if that option existed on my account.
The options I see:
Upgrade
Settings
Install Dropbox app
Sign out
Add team account
The options I see:
Upgrade
Settings
Install Dropbox app
Sign out
Add team account
I have to say, for all the valid hate it usually gets, iCloud is actually becoming a pretty nice “usb drive in the cloud” compared to the bullshit that is getting tacked on to Dropbox, Google Drive and to a lesser extent OneDrive.
On the other hand, I still keep a large WebDAV/OwnCloud server close for the moment iCloud turns to shit too.
On the other hand, I still keep a large WebDAV/OwnCloud server close for the moment iCloud turns to shit too.
I am early user of Dropbox. Everything was fine and then three devices per account policy arrived. The next morning I deleted all my files. Bought my self a Synology installed Cloud Station and now I have a my own cloud storage, with no ads or shady UX.
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In my experience, product people often seem to get some pretty extreme tunnel vision about how the product should work vs. what customers really want. I’ve seen it enough to assume that something about that role incentivizes this behavior.
I had a similar experience after kicking out Box. Sometimes enterprise SW companies get so caught up in the 20% of power users that they forget the value of simplicity for the 80%.
>> they couldn’t grok the reason
B2b enterprise “feature” apps don’t understand the b2c direct to consumer perspective.
B2b enterprise “feature” apps don’t understand the b2c direct to consumer perspective.
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Marketing droids are the WORST.
I was told a story about the Dropbox sales team a while back that swore me off using them. They contacted the company I worked at, that didn't have a business contract with Dropbox, offering a great deal and a meeting was quickly arranged. The meeting (which I only heard about secondhand from a good friend) quickly turned into a strong-arm operation.
Dropbox had 'detected' that employees at our company were using Dropbox and it would be unfortunate if their stored files were no longer available and it would be in our best interest to sign up for a business account or we might legally be in breach of some terms of service. Some detective work later it was determined that people had been signed in to Dropbox from company machines, but there were no accounts opened with a company email and nothing business related was being synced. All Dropbox binaries and network connections have been blocked since.
Dropbox had 'detected' that employees at our company were using Dropbox and it would be unfortunate if their stored files were no longer available and it would be in our best interest to sign up for a business account or we might legally be in breach of some terms of service. Some detective work later it was determined that people had been signed in to Dropbox from company machines, but there were no accounts opened with a company email and nothing business related was being synced. All Dropbox binaries and network connections have been blocked since.
The best answer to this tactic is, “Nice Dropbox you have there. Shame if OneDrive were to happen to it.”
The O365 integration with OneDrive is so seamless relative to other options, employees won’t even complain after an initial learning curve. In fact, many will start subscribing to O365 on iOS etc. and start having access to the same content synced across Windows, MacOS, iOS, Xbox, etc.
At this point, with employees adapted and the “M365” data visibility and DLP tools switched on, the enterprise can switch off Dropbox or other file depots so even personal accounts won’t work.
It takes a year or so to play out, but that’s how you lose 20,000 customers at a time.
The O365 integration with OneDrive is so seamless relative to other options, employees won’t even complain after an initial learning curve. In fact, many will start subscribing to O365 on iOS etc. and start having access to the same content synced across Windows, MacOS, iOS, Xbox, etc.
At this point, with employees adapted and the “M365” data visibility and DLP tools switched on, the enterprise can switch off Dropbox or other file depots so even personal accounts won’t work.
It takes a year or so to play out, but that’s how you lose 20,000 customers at a time.
This is an interesting take, and i agree with you. I myself have used dropbox for personal stuff, and onedrive with several of my previous employers for years now. For any person or business that i know who is all-in on microsoft products/services, i recommend to just adopt leveraging oneDrive, and life for them gets easier. (I didn't say better in other ways...but certainly easier.)
In fact, oneDrive is good enough that i signed up my family for the o365 family plan, because the cost is hard to beat (and because my family doesn't care if their machine is windows or linux)... But, when i went to start mixing in my files (vs my partner's and rest of family's files)...I learned that onedrive does __NOT RUN NATIVELY ON LINUX__ ...and linux is my personal daily driver. Hence, while my family, and all of our collective and shared files (including family photos) live on a paid oneDrive account, my stuff (files that really only pertain to me like dev. projects, etc.) live in dropbox, because dropbox runs decent enough on my linux machine. I can not wait for the day when dropbox is NOT the only decent option for linux machines. (Caveat: I am a big fan of nextcloud, but they're not there just yet...hopefully soon though!)
In fact, oneDrive is good enough that i signed up my family for the o365 family plan, because the cost is hard to beat (and because my family doesn't care if their machine is windows or linux)... But, when i went to start mixing in my files (vs my partner's and rest of family's files)...I learned that onedrive does __NOT RUN NATIVELY ON LINUX__ ...and linux is my personal daily driver. Hence, while my family, and all of our collective and shared files (including family photos) live on a paid oneDrive account, my stuff (files that really only pertain to me like dev. projects, etc.) live in dropbox, because dropbox runs decent enough on my linux machine. I can not wait for the day when dropbox is NOT the only decent option for linux machines. (Caveat: I am a big fan of nextcloud, but they're not there just yet...hopefully soon though!)
I mount onedrive on linux pretty well with rclone.
1. Setup rclone with onedrive (you have to copy an oauth token iirc)
2. Run mount
1. Setup rclone with onedrive (you have to copy an oauth token iirc)
2. Run mount
nohup rclone --vfs-cache-mode writes mount onedrive: ~/onedrive &I recall giving rclone a glance...but I thought it was more suited for a 1-way file send? (Like a sort of backup approach) So, does rclone work bi-directionally? In other words, if I add a file to my oneDrive via, say,mobile...as long as I setup rclone it will sync back to my laptop, and vice versa, etc.??
Rclone doesn't support bi directional sync. The only way to do this is to create two different folders and sync them seperately
Ok, yeah that was what I recalled too. Although that does not diminish the coolness of rclone, and I will have other use-cases that requires its use. I just need a bidirectional synch for my linux machines. Thanks!
I have been happy with this OneDrive client on Ubuntu for the last year: https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive/
Thanks! I had heard of another popular onedrive client for linux too (can't recall the name)...but have been hesitant to use such a client. Maybe it's time to try one; this one! Thanks for sharing!
We use Onedrive at my work. It's a little annoying because OneDrive reads through your Word documents and tells you that you actually can't save that file here, because it has some external font or macro inside it. I like that Dropbox and Box don't look inside your files and I really hope Microsoft copies that feature soon.
I'm going to hazard a guess that this is a function of saving into a Sharepoint Library that appears as file/document storage. This would likely work if you were saving into a folder that's then synced via OneDrive.
The commentary that I've seen really has Sharepoint as the storage for anything that may be shared with other users (via file, Teams, whatever) and OneDrive as storage for files that are strictly for one user.
Caveat: not an expert on this
The commentary that I've seen really has Sharepoint as the storage for anything that may be shared with other users (via file, Teams, whatever) and OneDrive as storage for files that are strictly for one user.
Caveat: not an expert on this
Yes the O365 integration is relatively seamless and we were forced to move from Dropbox to Onedrive after our IT guys consolidated all of our subscriptions.
But damn, the OneDrive client at least on my MacBook is complete garbage, it seems like basic features compared to the Dropbox Client are completely missing, and OneDrive regularly likes to randomly use so much CPU that the fans spin up.
Given how heavily OneDrive is targeted towards businesses and offices, you'd think that LAN syncing would have been one of the first features to include....
But damn, the OneDrive client at least on my MacBook is complete garbage, it seems like basic features compared to the Dropbox Client are completely missing, and OneDrive regularly likes to randomly use so much CPU that the fans spin up.
Given how heavily OneDrive is targeted towards businesses and offices, you'd think that LAN syncing would have been one of the first features to include....
> Dropbox had 'detected' that employees at our company were using Dropbox and it would be unfortunate if their stored files were no longer available and it would be in our best interest to sign up for a business account or we might legally be in breach of some terms of service.
That's such a dumb sales tactic. Having users inside a company without any contracts with the company means that there are probably evangelists for the product working there but management won't buy. Time to give a free trial of the pro-enterprise-moneymaker version and hope that someone decide it's worth it.
That's such a dumb sales tactic. Having users inside a company without any contracts with the company means that there are probably evangelists for the product working there but management won't buy. Time to give a free trial of the pro-enterprise-moneymaker version and hope that someone decide it's worth it.
Well, the tactic worked for Oracle, and I would assume some of those lawyers landed at other SV companies. Although, to be fair to Oracle, they didn't do dark pattern stuff when I used them.
The problem for Dropbox is that social media makes these strong arm tactics harder, as the victims have an opportunity to put the company on blast publicly and trash their reputation. 20 years ago companies could do this repeatedly for a longer period of time before they’d gain a reputation for being scummy.
But then look at how their "cloud" is doing.
Is anyone anywhere in SV building new products on top of Oracle?
Is anyone anywhere in SV building new products on top of Oracle?
Oracle isn't an SV focused company. There is plenty of money in all those non-tech businesses to be a big winner.
I really wish mobile OSes would allow you to grant apps permissions but serve fake data, (that's important!) without giving the app the ability to tell the difference. Just so it appears to the app that you've given the permission, when you in fact have not. This would solve this entire class of problems and then some. So, for example:
- App "has" access to contacts, but the system returns that you have none.
- App "has" access to location, but the search for GPS satellites never completes.
- App "has" access to storage, but it's actually /dev/null.
- App "has" access to contacts, but the system returns that you have none.
- App "has" access to location, but the search for GPS satellites never completes.
- App "has" access to storage, but it's actually /dev/null.
Apple solved this pretty well I thought. The developer guidelines say that you cannot require a permission as a condition of using an app. If the user says no, you must gracefully degrade. You can’t exit(0) or put up an undismissable screen until you get the permission. Apps that violate this are supposed to get kicked out of the store.
That’s not quite the full story. If your app absolutely must have the permission to operate, then it can be exempted from this requirement. I imagine “absolutely must” is up to interpretation.
> I imagine “absolutely must” is up to interpretation.
There is no way for app developers to "force" additional privileges.
They still can't exit(0), but for instance a GPS tracking app (navigation, running, whatever) that isn't allowed access to the GPS can't very well function without GPS access, so in that case your app is allowed to fail.
They cannot be excempted from asking for, and abiding by the users decision, but they can be excempted for not working "as advertised" should the user not provide the needed capabilities.
There is no way for app developers to "force" additional privileges.
They still can't exit(0), but for instance a GPS tracking app (navigation, running, whatever) that isn't allowed access to the GPS can't very well function without GPS access, so in that case your app is allowed to fail.
They cannot be excempted from asking for, and abiding by the users decision, but they can be excempted for not working "as advertised" should the user not provide the needed capabilities.
LineageOS 16 used to have this feature. I really miss it.
https://forum.fairphone.com/t/transitioning-from-los16s-priv...
Sad to have just learned from that link that Privacy Guard is gone. That has indeed been a key Cyanogen/LineageOS feature for me for years (my phone is still on 16). I can't say I understand the decision to remove it.
While for contacts and location that would be a good feature (I agree!), I'm not so sure about storage. It may be nice for certain rogue apps (or ones that request permissions they don't actually need) to give them /dev/null without them knowing, but that may actually result in bugs and unstable behaviour if apps are written to expect working storage.
Storage doesn't have a built-in failure mode like contacts and location have.
Storage doesn't have a built-in failure mode like contacts and location have.
Okay, you're probably right. It might be a better option to give an app a sandboxed storage location instead, just so the files it put there remain there because it might expect to find them there later.
... isn't that exactly what access to storage does? Do any (mobile) platforms give access to NON sandboxed storage?
All apps get sandboxed storage without even asking. On Android at least, permission for "storage" means permission for an area shared between all apps. And a lot of apps dump stuff into it that you do not necessarily want every other app to have access to.
It's always been that way.
What it really needs is some kind of compartments, so that you can share storage between X and Y, and between Z and W, but not between X and W.
It's always been that way.
What it really needs is some kind of compartments, so that you can share storage between X and Y, and between Z and W, but not between X and W.
I just installed Signal two days ago and enabled backups.
This asked, understandably, for storage permission. This prompted me to give access to the sdcard, however, I had the option to select a single folder (or actually directly creating it within the prompt) that the app will have access to. I.e. Signal now has access to sdcard/signalbackups/ but not to the whole sdcard. (unless this whole new permission process wasn't Android but the Signal app. I rarely download apps and have to give storage permissions).
This used to be different, but times of giving access to full internal or external sdcards are over. Unfortunately though, the UX isn't perfect. I felt like I needed to know that I only want to give it access to a part of the sdcard and actively look that this is indeed possible. But that might be my bias from previous usage talking.
This asked, understandably, for storage permission. This prompted me to give access to the sdcard, however, I had the option to select a single folder (or actually directly creating it within the prompt) that the app will have access to. I.e. Signal now has access to sdcard/signalbackups/ but not to the whole sdcard. (unless this whole new permission process wasn't Android but the Signal app. I rarely download apps and have to give storage permissions).
This used to be different, but times of giving access to full internal or external sdcards are over. Unfortunately though, the UX isn't perfect. I felt like I needed to know that I only want to give it access to a part of the sdcard and actively look that this is indeed possible. But that might be my bias from previous usage talking.
No, sandboxed means restricted to that application. Apps need permissions to access data outside of their sandbox. They are suggesting that there be another sandboxed storage for apps that pretends to be read data.
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> Storage doesn't have a built-in failure mode like contacts and location have.
Yes it does: disk full. It's perhaps a bit less reasonable to expect a program to keep working properly in such a case, but it needs to be handled somehow.
Yes it does: disk full. It's perhaps a bit less reasonable to expect a program to keep working properly in such a case, but it needs to be handled somehow.
App developers find out about this practice as it gets more commonplace. They add a check for 'empty' data or resolution failures. If these checks notice that you had been providing null or fake data, the app now gives you an intrusive yet pleading popup to please lift the privacy measures.
You get annoyed, resenting the fact that your friends are using this piece of garbage. Reluctantly you lift the measures, forget about it, and just keep using the app.
You get annoyed, resenting the fact that your friends are using this piece of garbage. Reluctantly you lift the measures, forget about it, and just keep using the app.
Just like with adblockers and anti-adblockers, you then go one level deeper...
It's a cat-and-mouse game. As long as you have full control over your device, you win.
It's a cat-and-mouse game. As long as you have full control over your device, you win.
At some point we're going to have to reverse engineer apps and come up with hopefully free software replacements...
That would get you banned in the Apple App Store
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Although it’ll never happen a cool idea would be to serve trap addresses and phone numbers so the developer can receive an instant ban if spam ends up on these addresses
This would, of course, be immediately abused to ban competitors' apps.
You would serve a different trap address to each app, nobody but Dropbox would have the Dropbox trap.
Nobody but Dropbox and anyone with the Dropbox app on their phone. It has to get from the user's phone to Dropbox, which means it's on the user's phone at some point, barring some sort of convoluted user --> Apple --> Dropbox transfer scheme.
Right, the Dropbox app on their phone is asking the OS for contact info, which the phone generates and provides to the Dropbox app and only the Dropbox app. Any other app would get a different fake address.
Or are you talking about the scenario where competitor apps use some kind of sandbox escape to jump out and steal other apps' trap addresses from the OS?
Or are you talking about the scenario where competitor apps use some kind of sandbox escape to jump out and steal other apps' trap addresses from the OS?
I figure that's what @ceejayoz is talking about. This probably won't happen between 'mom and pop' apps, but maybe a failing SV unicorn might become desperate enough to pay $1MM, or however much a blackhat will ask for this service, to trash their main competitor.
Each user has their own trap email for each application. The ban would happen for that user only
This is an awesome idea.
iOS almost allows this for geo-location nowadays, where one can pick whether to give ones exact position or a much less exact position, and for photos where one can select exactly what photos the app should get access to.
Does android have this API? The problem I see is, if they are introduced in later versions, people are anyway used to apps asking these permissions and developers don't bother to use these.
Also, a question to security experts: In many apps say we want a UX where the user would immediately be able to see their recent pics and select from them (think recent photos bar in whatsapp), but app shouldn't be able to access them. Is it safe if OS provides it as a screen overlay service which doesn't require a separate screen/window, but runs out of process (a la file picker).
Also, a question to security experts: In many apps say we want a UX where the user would immediately be able to see their recent pics and select from them (think recent photos bar in whatsapp), but app shouldn't be able to access them. Is it safe if OS provides it as a screen overlay service which doesn't require a separate screen/window, but runs out of process (a la file picker).
Android has a better API, and has had it for at least 5 years. An app can open the system UI for you to choose a file, and it would then only get access to that particular file while the activity (screen) that requested it is running. As far as the user is concerned, this requires no permissions. Under the hood, the app gets a content:// URI with an "URI permission" granted. This is also how sharing (Intent.ACTION_SEND) works. You could as well use this mechanism to expose the content in your app to other apps in a controlled manner.
Yep. Android also has a Contact Picker that doesn't require contacts permissions where you just select a single person in a dialog.
I have never seen it used in a real app. Most apps request permission to your entire address book.
I have never seen it used in a real app. Most apps request permission to your entire address book.
iOS does this for photos as of iOS 14: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/24/ios-14-users-give-apps-...
I wish there was an easier way to add additional photos quickly. From what I understand the only way is search for the app in settings, open the "Photos" permission and click on "Edit Selected Photos". Is there an easier way I missed? I guess I can't expect a simple click from within the app itself while selecting photos, as it's not aware it's seeing a limited selection.
I think it requires developers to fix that. At least in Slack there's two buttons next to their in-app image picker. One opens the camera to take a photo, the other pops up the iOS photo picker overlay where you can select more images.
I used to have a rooted android phone that could do this. If I remember correctly it was called Xposed Framework. I could even fake GPS data which was extremely useful in all kinds of apps. I also remember power usage increasing significantly after I installed this.
iOS has started doing this, at least for photos.
OPPO's colourOS as this.
> The Personal Information Protection feature is a very clever way to bypass this situation. You can turn on protection for call logs, contacts, messages, and events. Once protection is enabled, ColorOS 11 will send apps empty information, tricking the app into accessing the blank data.
https://www.xda-developers.com/oppo-coloros11-privacy/
> The Personal Information Protection feature is a very clever way to bypass this situation. You can turn on protection for call logs, contacts, messages, and events. Once protection is enabled, ColorOS 11 will send apps empty information, tricking the app into accessing the blank data.
https://www.xda-developers.com/oppo-coloros11-privacy/
I use xprivacy lua in android that does exactly this. It's not simple for general public though and it needs root.
Does it still work in recent Android versions though?
Depends if your rom supports edxposed properly which is for android 9 onwards.
I love this idea! Unfortunately the creator of the most popular mobile OS is also one of the worst offenders in this regard.
Given how things are going with big tech lately I wouldn't be shocked to see Google implement this feature, but with exception criteria that just so happens to apply to all Google apps.
Given how things are going with big tech lately I wouldn't be shocked to see Google implement this feature, but with exception criteria that just so happens to apply to all Google apps.
Yes, but it cannot be the sole feature. This should be done for compatibility with old apps, but also explicitly forbidden in the app stores that any app try to work around that by doing any kind of active detection.
"Sign in with Apple" kind of has something like this. It can give the application a randomly generated email address that acts as a forwarding address. The application never receives my real email address.
Not quite the same thing, but if you use Sign in with Apple, the application gets an Apple email address, and Apple forwards the email on to you.
Facebook Login used to have this as an option too, but stopped years ago.
Facebook Login used to have this as an option too, but stopped years ago.
An "easy" implementation would be to allow the user specify which contacts db is shared. User could then have multiple contact lists -- a fake one, a work one, a personal, etc.
You could check MIUI or Realme which already has that feature.
They’d detect it easily and refuse to work.
But iOS 14 let’s you do this for photos at least.
But iOS 14 let’s you do this for photos at least.
Well, from user perspective would be useful, but I don't have much expectations it would be implemented in, say, Android. They ofcourse want quality data.
Haven't done in-depth Android development, but I believe there is option to fake some GPS data? Ofcourse, not that helpful if you want 1 app to have real data, the other... not so real.
Proper way would be force devs think about REQUIRED and OPTIONAL permissions you can give. REQUIRED permissions are given on launch (or maybe you just get useless app), OPTIONAL permissions for improved features and fails gracefully if not given. It currently works that way, but is up to developer to implement it that way.
Perhaps adding advantage to those apps that do not REQUIRE sensitive permissions. Say a filter in Play Store you can use to filter our apps that require X permissions to work. In some cases, devs would be incentivized to REQUIRE less permissions.
When writing this comment, I thought about another solution. User profiles on android. Like on browser, where you get your own cookies etc. Googled around and.. looks like Android has something to offer!? Doesn't solve location, but perhaps Storage/Contacts.
https://source.android.com/devices/tech/admin/multi-user
https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/2865483?hl=en
> Notifications appear for all accounts of a single user at once.
> Notifications for other users do not appear until active. Each user gets a workspace to install and place apps.
> No user has access to the app data of another user.
> Any user can affect the installed apps for all users.
> The primary user can remove apps or even the entire workspace established by secondary users.
Haven't done in-depth Android development, but I believe there is option to fake some GPS data? Ofcourse, not that helpful if you want 1 app to have real data, the other... not so real.
Proper way would be force devs think about REQUIRED and OPTIONAL permissions you can give. REQUIRED permissions are given on launch (or maybe you just get useless app), OPTIONAL permissions for improved features and fails gracefully if not given. It currently works that way, but is up to developer to implement it that way.
Perhaps adding advantage to those apps that do not REQUIRE sensitive permissions. Say a filter in Play Store you can use to filter our apps that require X permissions to work. In some cases, devs would be incentivized to REQUIRE less permissions.
When writing this comment, I thought about another solution. User profiles on android. Like on browser, where you get your own cookies etc. Googled around and.. looks like Android has something to offer!? Doesn't solve location, but perhaps Storage/Contacts.
https://source.android.com/devices/tech/admin/multi-user
https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/2865483?hl=en
> Notifications appear for all accounts of a single user at once.
> Notifications for other users do not appear until active. Each user gets a workspace to install and place apps.
> No user has access to the app data of another user.
> Any user can affect the installed apps for all users.
> The primary user can remove apps or even the entire workspace established by secondary users.
I'm primarily an Android developer myself and I do respect my users <s>and that's why I have no job</s>, so yes, I request permissions only when they're absolutely necessary and when it's obvious as to why the permission is needed.
The bigger problem, though, is that you can't trust bad actors to act good. DNT in browsers has showed that extremely clearly: it was meant as a marker for you to not be tracked, yet advertisers used it as an additional bit for fingerprinting. Policy might be a way, but it relies on humans looking at apps. It's always much more effective to have technical measures in place, if possible. As in, no mater how much you'd like, you can't track a user across the web if their browser doesn't accept third-party cookies. And many app developers are in no way better than web developers with their incentives, intentions and tactics, it's just that the web makes these issues more noticeable.
The bigger problem, though, is that you can't trust bad actors to act good. DNT in browsers has showed that extremely clearly: it was meant as a marker for you to not be tracked, yet advertisers used it as an additional bit for fingerprinting. Policy might be a way, but it relies on humans looking at apps. It's always much more effective to have technical measures in place, if possible. As in, no mater how much you'd like, you can't track a user across the web if their browser doesn't accept third-party cookies. And many app developers are in no way better than web developers with their incentives, intentions and tactics, it's just that the web makes these issues more noticeable.
*sigh*
I would pay a lot of money for a service like the one Dropbox was in in its first few years. That is the service that I need now, not all this shiny crud.
I've been a Dropbox user for 12+ years.
I imagine it as buying a car 10 years ago because it solved all your mobility needs (shopping, occasional longer trips, dropping kids/family members to their events etc). You wander into the garage 12 years later and you have this monstrosity with five wheels, built-in backseat crayons, 20-feet long, flippers, and just two functional doors.
I don't need that. I certainly don't want that, and I'm actively looking to move away when my annual renewal comes up.
I would pay a lot of money for a service like the one Dropbox was in in its first few years. That is the service that I need now, not all this shiny crud.
I've been a Dropbox user for 12+ years.
I imagine it as buying a car 10 years ago because it solved all your mobility needs (shopping, occasional longer trips, dropping kids/family members to their events etc). You wander into the garage 12 years later and you have this monstrosity with five wheels, built-in backseat crayons, 20-feet long, flippers, and just two functional doors.
I don't need that. I certainly don't want that, and I'm actively looking to move away when my annual renewal comes up.
Depending on your platforms of choice, iCloud Drive has been a great solution for me. I was an early Dropbox user who got out when they started limiting the number of syncing devices for free accounts a while back, and the $0.99 a month I pay to Apple for 50GB of storage in a folder that appears on all my devices works exactly like I want it to - I save stuff there, and then forget about it until I need it, and its magically on whatever device I'm using.
Sync could be a feature, or sync could be a product. But the lesson seems to be that if your product is sync, and you grow big and take lots of outside money to do it, sync won't be your product for very long. You'll need to expand and try to do everything else that could use good sync as a feature.
Sync could be a feature, or sync could be a product. But the lesson seems to be that if your product is sync, and you grow big and take lots of outside money to do it, sync won't be your product for very long. You'll need to expand and try to do everything else that could use good sync as a feature.
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile...
And you may find yourself paying for 5TB of cloud storage with feature bloat...
And you may ask yourself, "Well... how did I get here?"
And you may find yourself paying for 5TB of cloud storage with feature bloat...
And you may ask yourself, "Well... how did I get here?"
Remember when this(1) was Dropbox? Remember how beloved it was because it did a thing and did it well, without complicating things or being actively user-hostile? Well, of course it's been fully MBA'd at this point, a true shame.
(1) https://i.ibb.co/w6zcwYW/Screen-Shot-2021-01-15-at-10-49-22-...
(1) https://i.ibb.co/w6zcwYW/Screen-Shot-2021-01-15-at-10-49-22-...
Kind-of sounds like Steve Jobs was right in what he told Drew Houston: Dropbox is a feature, not a product.
Houston disagreed and they've spent all this time ever since trying to prove Jobs wrong. Meanwhile Apple built iCloud and Microsoft built OneDrive into their operating systems.
Houston disagreed and they've spent all this time ever since trying to prove Jobs wrong. Meanwhile Apple built iCloud and Microsoft built OneDrive into their operating systems.
Link to answer: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Dropbox-more-popular-than-other...
I remember reading this when it was first written. Ironically, Quora was also much simpler and better back then before turning into a spammy bloated mess.
I remember reading this when it was first written. Ironically, Quora was also much simpler and better back then before turning into a spammy bloated mess.
The reason I did a screenshot was because I couldn't reliably link to this answer on Quora. What a dumpster fire that site's become too.
Click on the timestamp for a direct link to the answer. Most social sites follow this UX pattern.
Even when I did that, it wouldn't reliably scroll to the correct location. Not sure if it's because of my ad blocking or what.
DropBox seems to have decided that the only way for them to grow is to turn their data sync platform into a collaborative platform. Makes a whole lot of sense to steal contacts from all your users.
FYI - never use oauth to log into anything you care about.
FYI - never use oauth to log into anything you care about.
I am not so sure if oauth is to blame alone. I mean, it is a technology that lets you control what you want to share. However, engaging in business with a partner who decides to change the rules, is something I see a lot more critical.
So maybe the lesson should sound more like
- 'Don't use Dropbox for anything you care about' or
- 'Don't do business with large corporations for anything you care about'
To clarify, I am not saying it to protect oauth (in its current state I am not a particular fan of it), but to show, that the technology doesn't change by itself and that someone decided to change it. So the company who decided to execute this unethical change should take its share of the blame too.
So maybe the lesson should sound more like
- 'Don't use Dropbox for anything you care about' or
- 'Don't do business with large corporations for anything you care about'
To clarify, I am not saying it to protect oauth (in its current state I am not a particular fan of it), but to show, that the technology doesn't change by itself and that someone decided to change it. So the company who decided to execute this unethical change should take its share of the blame too.
Isnt the point here that you don't have control? Seems like you need to allow contact access to use google login at all.
There is no fine grained control to permissions.
There is no fine grained control to permissions.
That's not oauth, that's just the granularity the auth provider has decided to expose in its permissions system, and the granularity Dropbox have opted to request.
That's oauth in the sense that if you login with your own login/pass, this will never be something they can force on you. I never use oauth, always login/pass, and don't have to care about what permissions they ask me, it's easy, they have absolutely zero access to my gmail/facebook/twitter whatever.
Sadly, you can't have a product that does one thing and does it well when you have to show never-ending growth to investors :(
Even more sadly that same thing seems to be true of FOSS applications because people think an application you aren't constantly updating and adding features to is "abandoned".
Software isn't allowed to just be done anymore.
Software isn't allowed to just be done anymore.
Well, fortunately, there are exceptions. Case in point being XFCE. It has remained the same for years.
However, your point still stands, because exceptions are just that, exceptions.
However, your point still stands, because exceptions are just that, exceptions.
> FYI - never use oauth to log into anything you care about.
Interesting remark. I'm not objecting but it's interesting that this goes against what can one read here very often from people who comment on new products, which goes like this: "if you offered oauth sign up, I'd sign up but won't bother with creating an account". Just an observation.
Interesting remark. I'm not objecting but it's interesting that this goes against what can one read here very often from people who comment on new products, which goes like this: "if you offered oauth sign up, I'd sign up but won't bother with creating an account". Just an observation.
do you mean OpenID? I guess oauth is OK for signups if the tokens were expiring. But usually you naively give the credentials to a new startup, only to find out they abuse them months later.
Can you elaborate on that? How can they abuse it? Your oauth provider will show you which permissions the app is requesting when you grant them access. What kind of abuse have you seen?
Is there an oauth provider that offers what mobiles have started to do with permissions, where "deny" just gives empty data to to the requesting application instead of actually rejecting the claim?
It'd be nice to see Google offer something like that.
It'd be nice to see Google offer something like that.
Facebook does this with theirs for access to a user’s Pages. Just an empty array, which isn’t unusual for normal users.
Makes it tough for third-party devs to debug a legit “I am not seeing Page X as an option” though.
Makes it tough for third-party devs to debug a legit “I am not seeing Page X as an option” though.
> FYI - never use oauth to log into anything you care about.
I definitely agree with this. While it's true that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Apple are probably better at securing accounts than most other companies, there's always the possibility that they can be compromised.
Another problem is that if your oauth provider decides to close your account for whatever reason, it may be difficult or impossible to unlink everything from it.
Not only do I create real accounts for any service I want to use, I divide them up among multiple separate email accounts, so that if one account is compromised, I limit the associated services that are vulnerable as a result.
I definitely agree with this. While it's true that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and Apple are probably better at securing accounts than most other companies, there's always the possibility that they can be compromised.
Another problem is that if your oauth provider decides to close your account for whatever reason, it may be difficult or impossible to unlink everything from it.
Not only do I create real accounts for any service I want to use, I divide them up among multiple separate email accounts, so that if one account is compromised, I limit the associated services that are vulnerable as a result.
My Spotify is broken since I deleted my Facebook. I can't even change the email in my profile.
Contact Spotify support. Had a similar problem where I had a leftover Facebook-Spotify account after delinking that blocked my normal account from changing my email. Spotify support was quick to help me.
> FYI - never use oauth to log into anything you care about.
Or, "Then create a password and revoke oauth permissions from the provider"
Or, "Then create a password and revoke oauth permissions from the provider"
These days all browsers offer to generate and save a syncable password for you and fill in the email, so it's almost as easy to make a normal account as it is to use OAuth. It feels like OAuth/SSO is a tool for a different, less user-friendly era.
Not following. What's wrong with oauth?
When Google's AI (=RNG) decides to terminate your account (maybe you typed a few too many comments on YouTube, this has happened to people), you'll lose every service for which you used Google to sign in with.
Also, the usual tracking stuff.
Also, the usual tracking stuff.
In addition, you are limited to the few providers which are being supported by the platform. So you can't simply create your own authentication provider as it was possible with OpenID.
Don't websites usually create an association between a local user (in their DB) and an oauth2 account, linked by the email address? And then all your data is linked to the local DB user. I guess it's a bigger threat if you don't use your own domain for email.
EDIT: I'm talking about sites that also have their own local user db of course, so you could just do a password reset.
EDIT: I'm talking about sites that also have their own local user db of course, so you could just do a password reset.
Syncthing might be a good option for those that wish to migrate. It is a stable open-source solution for syncing a directory in many-to-many clients situation. The syncthing itself provides no servers. But if you wish to have a central server it could be as easy as just installing synchting on your main machine or a cheap VPS. The UI is good enough and it is stable.
Syncthing has been working very reliably for our agency, with multiple users reading/writing to shared projects, with a NAS elected as "master" (though ST doesn't care who's who). Frankly impressive for an OSS project.
However setting up and managing Syncthing is far from self-explanatory for a non-technical audience. It's OK in our case as we can hand-hold and onboard people in-house, but not ideal. Syncthing's usability would benefit immensely from an updated front-end UX, consistent across platforms.
Dropbox for all its recent dark patterns and upsells is still one of the most intuitive systems. Yes, the client UX has worsened, but the core service retains a very predictable behaviour. A folder is a folder. Shared with X and Y. When un-sharing or deleting a folder or file the options are clearly communicated. Compare this with Google Drive, where a "file" can become orphaned and keep existing in limbo, where it's invisible in the browser or filesystem, but it's discoverable by search. It drove us nuts multiple times making it very hard to track access to old documents without having to update settings one-by-one, etc. Google Drive feels like an afterthought to accompany the otherwise great Docs, Slides. and Sheets.
However setting up and managing Syncthing is far from self-explanatory for a non-technical audience. It's OK in our case as we can hand-hold and onboard people in-house, but not ideal. Syncthing's usability would benefit immensely from an updated front-end UX, consistent across platforms.
Dropbox for all its recent dark patterns and upsells is still one of the most intuitive systems. Yes, the client UX has worsened, but the core service retains a very predictable behaviour. A folder is a folder. Shared with X and Y. When un-sharing or deleting a folder or file the options are clearly communicated. Compare this with Google Drive, where a "file" can become orphaned and keep existing in limbo, where it's invisible in the browser or filesystem, but it's discoverable by search. It drove us nuts multiple times making it very hard to track access to old documents without having to update settings one-by-one, etc. Google Drive feels like an afterthought to accompany the otherwise great Docs, Slides. and Sheets.
That's because Syncthing is a different beast. If you want something closer to Dropbox, use Nextcloud, which does basically everything Dropbox does (and more) and has the simple sharing UI you're talking about.
I’ve looked at Nextcloud, however it seems to be missing a key feature for me - the ability to store files server-side only. I want a google drive / Dropbox hybrid solution, where I can keep some directories synced and others permanently on the server.
Does anyone know a solution that allows me to self-host something like this?
Does anyone know a solution that allows me to self-host something like this?
Nextcloud works exactly the way you want, so you may be thinking of something different. Maybe Syncthing?
I've looked at syncthing, however it doesn't have an iOS app.
Regarding nextcloud - it only seems to do full syncronisation like dropbox does. How can I store large shared directories on the server side only? eg, my FreeNAS box has ~20TB in it, and I'd like to be able to access it as a shared directory, but obviously not sync it to my laptop.
Regarding nextcloud - it only seems to do full syncronisation like dropbox does. How can I store large shared directories on the server side only? eg, my FreeNAS box has ~20TB in it, and I'd like to be able to access it as a shared directory, but obviously not sync it to my laptop.
Syncthing allows you to sync some folders and not others.
I use both Syncthing and Nextcloud (each for different things). Nextcloud is more akin to Dropbox, and works very well. Syncthing is peer-to-peer, so you don't get a web UI you can browse on your phone and selectively download data (it's "all or nothing" per directory), but I haven't had a single problem with it in years. It just works.
I use a Syncthing a little, but the battery usage, especially on Android, is a big problem.
It might work fine for small amounts of files, but it doesn't scale as well as Dropbox does.
It might work fine for small amounts of files, but it doesn't scale as well as Dropbox does.
this. i was an old bittorrent sync user when it came up, continued to use it till they made it difficult. probably from day 1. then found out about syncthing and couldnt ask for more. it does take "understanding" to get everything hooked up but once done it just works without any issues
Many of us here are taking the opportunity to suggest Syncthing. I second that. We have been using it for years in our studio, moving much more data than it would ever be possible or practical with Dropbox and never had a bad surprise. We were also pleasantly surprised to see it working flawlessly behind a fairly thick NAT/Firewall when working from home. It's very stable, resilient and easy to set up for anyone lurking on HN.
However it is not as easy as Dropbox to set up for non-technical peeps, which is a bit of a shame as it hinders broader adoption.
However it is not as easy as Dropbox to set up for non-technical peeps, which is a bit of a shame as it hinders broader adoption.
Also there's no iOS app.
Wow, this is awful. I just tried to log into my account and I can't unless I give them access to my contacts.
This is completely unacceptable - feels like a ransom.
This is completely unacceptable - feels like a ransom.
You should be still able to log in with the same email with user/password, without being asked for a new permission.
I don't even have a password, I think.
Does requesting a password reset work? Some websites will let you set a password on an OAuth account using that.
A year ago, I replaced Dropbox with Syncthing [1] for all my private use.
It syncs directly between your devices without need for a central server (except for device discovery).
I use it without an always-on instance (NAS, cloud server), so it only syncs when my Laptop and Phone are on at the same time. This is enough for me. It just works (TM).
[1] https://syncthing.net/
It syncs directly between your devices without need for a central server (except for device discovery).
I use it without an always-on instance (NAS, cloud server), so it only syncs when my Laptop and Phone are on at the same time. This is enough for me. It just works (TM).
[1] https://syncthing.net/
> The Syncthing Foundation stands against racism! Read about what we're doing.
Ugh, is anyone tired of every website's insistent virtue signaling?
Ugh, is anyone tired of every website's insistent virtue signaling?
Yes, but I feel like in the end it'll do more good than harm.
I'm sure all the racists that read that will change their views.
No, it's really just obnoxious, imagine meeting a person for the first time and they say "Hi, my name is youbookface, and I'll have you know that I'm not a racist and here's a list of all the organization I've donated to!"
No, it's really just obnoxious, imagine meeting a person for the first time and they say "Hi, my name is youbookface, and I'll have you know that I'm not a racist and here's a list of all the organization I've donated to!"
I did the same thing. I use Syncthing for a bunch of thing and it really works well. I'm in the process of rebuilding my offsite backup machine with it. I make a local backup of all my digital pictures and will soon use Syncthing to move a copy of that backup to a relative's house in another state. Even if my house burns down I'll have all my media. The offsite box is a 10 year old desktop running Debian with a 12Tb drive in it. Backup server is set to "send only" and offsite copy is set to "receive only" so it's a one-way pipe.
I've got a Synology NAS and I keep OneDrive for documents I might need in case of emergency.
Dropbox has no reason to exists for me. Firstly, they want to force me which filesystem to use on my Linux box, secondly, I already have plenty of GBs on Google Drive and MS OneDrive, so why would I need another service is beyond me. I mean, it's not like Dropbox is a safe encrypted alternative to GDrive or OneDrive anyway...
Dropbox has no reason to exists for me. Firstly, they want to force me which filesystem to use on my Linux box, secondly, I already have plenty of GBs on Google Drive and MS OneDrive, so why would I need another service is beyond me. I mean, it's not like Dropbox is a safe encrypted alternative to GDrive or OneDrive anyway...
They do provide provide first-party Linux support, which Google and Microsoft lack.
What other reason should I have for trusting Microsoft or Google over Dropbox? (Serious question, I've been considering my cloud sync provider recently).
What other reason should I have for trusting Microsoft or Google over Dropbox? (Serious question, I've been considering my cloud sync provider recently).
There are working open source clients for OneDrive.
You can just encrypt the data you pump into OneDrive (or any cloud provider you don't trust) and just use it for quick online access and then sync everything into your local NAS/server.
Exactly this.
I have my data on my NAS and I keep on Onedrive and GDrive only what I might need while around.
I have my data on my NAS and I keep on Onedrive and GDrive only what I might need while around.
Companies like Facebook with their demanding WhatsApp users provide access to private data, and now Dropbox demanding access to private data is highlighting an interesting phenomenon: These companies feel entitled to our private data and now are becoming hostile when they don't get it.
I sincerely hope that the broader community outside of Hacker News pushes back severely on this behavior or else it will only get worse.
Edit to add: These companies have such a feeling of entitlement to our data that their next move will be to try to convince legislatures to force us to give them access to it. Mark my words.
I sincerely hope that the broader community outside of Hacker News pushes back severely on this behavior or else it will only get worse.
Edit to add: These companies have such a feeling of entitlement to our data that their next move will be to try to convince legislatures to force us to give them access to it. Mark my words.
Dear Dropbox, I'm a paying customer and if you make sharing my google contacts a requirement I will cease to be a paying customer. I don't care why you did it. I don't care how great it is. I don't care how much more whatever it makes my "experience". I use Dropbox for cold storage and offsite backup - there are other ready options to serve this use case.
As an alternative, I recently setup Nextcloud on an Ubuntu running vm using the snap package[1] and it took around 30 minutes in total.
1: https://github.com/nextcloud/nextcloud-snap
1: https://github.com/nextcloud/nextcloud-snap
I did the same some months ago - just a heads up that it's not without it's rough edges, but definitely does a near-enough-to-what-i-want job. I've noticed a few unsynced images and am currently struggling to get the android app to stop trying to sync a gigantic folder.
I was using the docker image with my own ansible/nginx setup before but I found that maintaining required a little more attention that I'd like to give it, so I decided to give the snap package a go. One nice thing is that it self-updates automatically. What sort of issues did you encounter?
Server side's actually okay, I think the android app has a number of bugs. For example I tried to set a folder with several thousand pieces of media and a few other files to auto upload and it'd keep triggering "nextcloud is not responding" pop-ups on my phone. It's ~6 gigs but didn't complete for two painful days. It was almost impossible to open the app cos it's intensely trying to sync that folder.
I thought I managed to cancel it yesterday and remove the folder from auto uploads but today it's trying to upload the contents of that folder again even though I can't find it in my auto upload setup.
I've also felt it misses instant uploads once in a while but never investigated to prove that or the circumstances so take that with a grain of salt
I thought I managed to cancel it yesterday and remove the folder from auto uploads but today it's trying to upload the contents of that folder again even though I can't find it in my auto upload setup.
I've also felt it misses instant uploads once in a while but never investigated to prove that or the circumstances so take that with a grain of salt
Nextcloud works quite well. And you have also a calendar and some other nice features which DropBox not provides.
Also the desktop sync client as well as the android client(s) works quite well.
Yeah, those little applets are pretty useful. It does feel somewhat slugish if you enable many tho. Sync works perfectly for my use case.
Hmm. My Dropbox Pro subscription renewal is coming up.
Is there an alternative to Dropbox that isn't iCloud or Google Drive? I would like to pay for Tarsnap but I don't understand 250 picodollars / byte-month.
Is there an alternative to Dropbox that isn't iCloud or Google Drive? I would like to pay for Tarsnap but I don't understand 250 picodollars / byte-month.
I use SyncThing [0]. It can work without a server if your devices are often up at the same time. Otherwise you can get a small cheap server from the provider of your choice to suit your needs.
[0] https://syncthing.net/
[0] https://syncthing.net/
SyncThing is great when it works, but its platform support is spotty at best (notably lacks official iOS version, I found the Android one to be flaky and if you try to use it on a Chromebook, straight up does not work).
It's great for serverless sync between Linux, freeBSD and Windows machines, though - it generally "just works". Didn't try it on macOS or Solaris, never had the need to.
It's great for serverless sync between Linux, freeBSD and Windows machines, though - it generally "just works". Didn't try it on macOS or Solaris, never had the need to.
250 picodollars / byte-month is $3000/TB/yr, which is very expensive even compared to the already expensive S3 (~$276/TB/yr).
For reference, HDDs cost ~$20/TB, so you could buy a new HDD every 2.5 days for the cost of storing the data on tarsnap.
For reference, HDDs cost ~$20/TB, so you could buy a new HDD every 2.5 days for the cost of storing the data on tarsnap.
I'll add a +1 to pCloud (pcloud.com) - SyncThing doesn't fit my use case (I have no "one device to hold everything", it's all disparate laptops/phones) and I wanted a centralized location to store my encrypted backups and files and stuff.
My requirements were integration with rclone and FolderSync (android app) to work natively with their APIs and it works like written on the tin. I was able to use rclone on a cloud server to transfer data out of Google Cloud (rclone can act as a local proxy to copy between services) and I'm able to use FolderSync on my mobile to keep it backed up.
The pCloud branded mobile app is OK (nothing great), the webapp works well (again, just sort of works) and so far I've found no real problems with it - no failed syncs, my backups are backing up nicely, it just sort of works without fanfare.
My requirements were integration with rclone and FolderSync (android app) to work natively with their APIs and it works like written on the tin. I was able to use rclone on a cloud server to transfer data out of Google Cloud (rclone can act as a local proxy to copy between services) and I'm able to use FolderSync on my mobile to keep it backed up.
The pCloud branded mobile app is OK (nothing great), the webapp works well (again, just sort of works) and so far I've found no real problems with it - no failed syncs, my backups are backing up nicely, it just sort of works without fanfare.
The pcloud pricing model is interesting/concerning. A one-time, life-time payment?
As I tend to go for the long game and expect to use it for years, I went for the lifetime (in my case it'll pay off itself within about 3 years), I was using Google Cloud storage buckets for longer than that so you know - financially for me, it works to replace the monthly fees for Google Cloud which was already a concrete cost. These types of pricing agreements are usually not sustainable for a company long-term, I go into the agreement with eyes open and I've got rclone ready to move the data again if I have to migrate.
My actual expectation is that at some point, 500G will be "small" in provider terms and they'll offer upsells to 1TB, 2TB etc. over the life of my account trying to get me to the next level or some other features (which they already have - you can buy add-ons). Nothing wrong with that, I still get my portable 500G "for life" (of the Product) which suits my current space needs. I have enough portable space now that I can upload a hundred gigs of Music, something I wasn't able to do before (increased cost) and use that 500G space. (I had uploaded everything to Google Music over a decade...so... yeah)
(edit: typos, wrong word/replaced)
My actual expectation is that at some point, 500G will be "small" in provider terms and they'll offer upsells to 1TB, 2TB etc. over the life of my account trying to get me to the next level or some other features (which they already have - you can buy add-ons). Nothing wrong with that, I still get my portable 500G "for life" (of the Product) which suits my current space needs. I have enough portable space now that I can upload a hundred gigs of Music, something I wasn't able to do before (increased cost) and use that 500G space. (I had uploaded everything to Google Music over a decade...so... yeah)
(edit: typos, wrong word/replaced)
I am not here to do advertising of pCloud, but I´m 2TB lifetime user of pCloud and I'm using their Encryption add-on as my work position need this extra security for my working stuff. The investment is not high for 2TB, since I’ve been using pCloud for 3 years already, it paid for itself anyway. At the beginning I had some concerns losing my data in case of bankrupt of the company. But here I am – 3 years later, and so far, I’m happy with their services. And to be honest, in these uncertain times we live, I’d rather take the chance and try something new and useful than asking all the time “what if”.
I really enjoy pcloud. It's simple, fast (I'm looking at your shitty galleries, OneDrive) and has a snappy mobile and linux app.
I moved to Tresorit, and so far it’s been great. It’s end-to-end encrypted/zero-knowledge. The service is a little bit enterprise-y, but really solid. I’ve done all I can to test and and haven’t been able to flaw it. Merge conflicts end up as duped files, just like Dropbox, which is great.
Their Mac app is good. It’s native and doesn’t use a ton of resources (I haven’t used it on other desktop platforms). AFAIK, it doesn’t support APFS extended attributes, so Finder tags won’t get synced. It does use the Finder sync extension API though.
It works slightly differently to Dropbox — rather than just being a single folder that syncs, it’s more like selective sync, where you have multiple folders that are optionally synced. This confused me a little during setup, but I think I prefer it now.
I tried pretty much all the other alternatives and didn’t like them. I’m already paying for iCloud Drive, so I’d love that to work, but it’s chewed up files or taken hours to sync on too many occasions, so I don’t trust it any more.
Their Mac app is good. It’s native and doesn’t use a ton of resources (I haven’t used it on other desktop platforms). AFAIK, it doesn’t support APFS extended attributes, so Finder tags won’t get synced. It does use the Finder sync extension API though.
It works slightly differently to Dropbox — rather than just being a single folder that syncs, it’s more like selective sync, where you have multiple folders that are optionally synced. This confused me a little during setup, but I think I prefer it now.
I tried pretty much all the other alternatives and didn’t like them. I’m already paying for iCloud Drive, so I’d love that to work, but it’s chewed up files or taken hours to sync on too many occasions, so I don’t trust it any more.
Sync ( www.sync.com ) is pretty good, I wish their app and web ui was a lot better, the search sucks but I have been a paying customer for two years now. I like that it doesn't force you to collaborate. And that it's quite barebones.
I have a 49 bucks a year for 500gb plan, which they no longer offer, but I guess I'm grandfathered in
I use a mix of syncthing and seafile. Syncthing is very simple to setup and pretty much set-and-forget. Seafile is more involved but the end result is closer to the classic Dropbox experience.
If you’re not interested in self-hosting and just want a straight Dropbox replacement, I’d look into Nextcloud providers.
If you’re not interested in self-hosting and just want a straight Dropbox replacement, I’d look into Nextcloud providers.
I like https://tresorit.com. It's end to end encrypted. Doesn't work as smoothly as Dropbox, but worth it IMO.
Yah, looked at it too.
Still thinking if E2EE is worth losing search and OCR.
Which search would you lose? Their iOS app has search, and on macOS your can use Finder’s search. I assume there’d be ways on Android, Windows and Linux as well.
Actually, I just checked and their Mac and web apps also have search.
Actually, I just checked and their Mac and web apps also have search.
Not by contents, I'd assume.
Check out the nextcloudpi project. Paid once for the pi/drive/case 4 years ago and been a happy user ever since.
It's been so worry free that when I had to move house I had to read the docs again to make sure I do things right. And that's on top of me studying the project well enough the first time I set it up that I ended up contributing some patches.
P.S. There are hosted offerings for nextcloud but for a household with 2-5 users I think nextcloudpi has the best value proposition.
It's been so worry free that when I had to move house I had to read the docs again to make sure I do things right. And that's on top of me studying the project well enough the first time I set it up that I ended up contributing some patches.
P.S. There are hosted offerings for nextcloud but for a household with 2-5 users I think nextcloudpi has the best value proposition.
You need to set up a dynamic DNS, right?
Yes. I 've used a free offering from https://freedns.afraid.org/ until I bought a domain of my own.
There are other free offerings if you look around.
Look at the documentation for the best supported options.
Look at the documentation for the best supported options.
I am really happy with Nextcloud!
Plus one for Nextcloud, which I use as a self-hosted version for years now.
If you don't like the self-hosting part, there are even offers which make it simple, like the one from Hetzner[1].
But there are also other providers:
https://nextcloud.com/signup/ (click 'Change Providers')
[1] https://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-share
If you don't like the self-hosting part, there are even offers which make it simple, like the one from Hetzner[1].
But there are also other providers:
https://nextcloud.com/signup/ (click 'Change Providers')
[1] https://www.hetzner.com/storage/storage-share
"250 picodollars / byte-month" is just a hackish way of saying "$0.25 / gigabyte-month, pro-rated down to the byte."
I always thought it was about avoiding the 1000 vs 1024 discussion https://xkcd.com/394/
I'm currently using onedrive for business (5$/month for 1tb, exchange and some other office goodies). I can highly recommend it, the privacy probably is not perfect with it being a Microsoft product after all. But the apps are superb and Android/iOS photo upload are a big plus.
I am repeating myself from another thread but I'm 90% sure of the answer and no-one checks: are you sure OneDrive works well? Can you sync PST files? [1]
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
For the most part you should only be using .pst files for archiving, and those you should be able to sync in Outlook now.
For Exchange/Exchange Online, Outlook uses a .ost file that lives in AppData, which is not synced by OneDrive.
For Exchange/Exchange Online, Outlook uses a .ost file that lives in AppData, which is not synced by OneDrive.
Since I currently do not own a Windows PC, I could only test using the web interface, Android and iOS app. All of them seem to work fine (~10MB .pst file), at least upload and download works and the hashsums match afterwards.
If you want to test this yourself, Onedrive has a free tier you could try.
If you want to test this yourself, Onedrive has a free tier you could try.
Tarsnap is ridiculously expensive. Only use-case if you have small files (few gigabytes at most) and you want to use it to do backup with scripts/command-line and do care a lot about encryption.
https://www.jottacloud.com/en/ has been around for over a decade.
Check out https://koofr.eu/ Disclaimer: I work there :)
There is still One Drive if we are taking about the big guys.
You could also look into seedboxes.
You could also look into seedboxes.
I am repeating myself from another thread but I'm 90% sure of the answer and no-one checks: are you sure OneDrive works well? Can you sync PST files? [1]
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
I just live with a NAS in my house, which syncs to S3.
i switched to microsoft 1Drive a long time ago, works seamlessly on windows
I am repeating myself from another thread but I'm 90% sure of the answer and no-one checks: are you sure OneDrive works well? Can you sync PST files? [1]
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
[1] https://www.eejournal.com/article/onedrive-down-the-road-to-...
I haven't had problems with files , but that might be just me. I had an issue in the past that it would crash . i removed and reinstalled and it s fixed now
[deleted]
Thanks for sharing this, I've been trying to move away from Google Drive and I was about to go all in on Dropbox. The recent layoffs made me question Dropbox a little but this is the final nail in the coffin. I'm looking for something Linux friendly if anybody has a solution they're loving right now. Backblaze B2 maybe?
I recently moved away from Dropbox due to its increasing hostility. I am currently evaluating pCloud, though I am not sure they are the one I want to go with: They have some severe problems with consistency across syncs and they allow themselves to push advertisement through their desktop apps ie. they are highly intrusive. I guess I will give them the year I paid for and then move on.
I tried about half a dozen cloud backup solutions and Dropbox, so far, is the only one who can deliver the only thing that matters to me: Consistency. Dropbox actually works and it works well. It can handle suddenly having thousands of tiny text files, it can handle a 5GB PDF, it handles foreign letters in file names and it has a sane way of determining which file version is the current one when switching between platforms.
It gives me cold sweat to read headlines like this since there aren't enough alternatives to Dropbox that "just work". Similar to what happens to Apple. I have no idea why Dropbox is fucking around with their shit so much. I'd happily pay a dollar more here and there (and they just increased pricing!), just don't do bullshit in the background.
It gives me cold sweat to read headlines like this since there aren't enough alternatives to Dropbox that "just work". Similar to what happens to Apple. I have no idea why Dropbox is fucking around with their shit so much. I'd happily pay a dollar more here and there (and they just increased pricing!), just don't do bullshit in the background.
pCloud has terrible security. They don't even use https in all places.
They also don't state what encryption they use. They rolled their own ig.
They also don't state what encryption they use. They rolled their own ig.
This has been like this for a while, I tweeted to their support about this over a year ago. No response of course...
It's a total dick-move by Dropbox since access to Contacts is clearly not necessary for Dropbox to work.
However, the real problem here is obviously Google Login that only allows blanket permissions to either accept or reject.
Permissions should be granular and as a user I should have the ability the "untick" access to Contacts if I don't want to give an app access to that data. If I untick a permission that is needed for app functionality, e.g. I deny camera access to a camera app, then the app simply would be able to do that feature.
It's a total dick-move by Dropbox since access to Contacts is clearly not necessary for Dropbox to work.
However, the real problem here is obviously Google Login that only allows blanket permissions to either accept or reject.
Permissions should be granular and as a user I should have the ability the "untick" access to Contacts if I don't want to give an app access to that data. If I untick a permission that is needed for app functionality, e.g. I deny camera access to a camera app, then the app simply would be able to do that feature.
I find this sort of thing goes hand in hand with the "Maybe Later" culture.
You want to say "No." but you can't, they've taken that option away from you.
Instead you're forced to give them permission to bug you again later.
You want to say "No." but you can't, they've taken that option away from you.
Instead you're forced to give them permission to bug you again later.
Am I the only one infinitely annoyed by dropbox hiding the download button in a context menu?!
And if you right click on the link to the file, it downloads the html page that shows the file, using the name of the file.
So when you open the file locally, you get a corrupt file message because you downloaded the wrong thing.
So when you open the file locally, you get a corrupt file message because you downloaded the wrong thing.
As a product focused company trying to create a great UX, it's really quite easy to justify something like this for creating a better UX. I can imagine a PM looking at the collaboration flow, UX researcher finding friction in initiating collaboration, testing mockups where Dropbox "magically" knows your colleagues, and it getting great reception from users. Most users still don't care about privacy, most users assume email addresses are essentially fully public.
This part is a better UX for the majority of users.
The problem comes when there's a data leak, or when the marketing team decide to email those contacts, or some time later that could really easily be argued as "this will never happen", and may often not, but it's possible.
It's details like this that differentiate the "good" product companies from the "great" product companies, specifically because the detail of "not collecting email addresses" would never be noticed by those users, by construction.
This part is a better UX for the majority of users.
The problem comes when there's a data leak, or when the marketing team decide to email those contacts, or some time later that could really easily be argued as "this will never happen", and may often not, but it's possible.
It's details like this that differentiate the "good" product companies from the "great" product companies, specifically because the detail of "not collecting email addresses" would never be noticed by those users, by construction.
OP here. Just to clarify some confusion. I can still login using my username and password. I just liked the simplicity of logging in via Google, since I was already logged in there.
Seems like I'm no longer able to do that and, from what I read here, some users might be completely locked out unless they give access to Google contacts.
Seems like I'm no longer able to do that and, from what I read here, some users might be completely locked out unless they give access to Google contacts.
I stopped using Google login a while back after having a hard time moving an account to a different google account. I realized that the benefits do not outweigh the problems AND that I really didn't want Google being the gatekeeper to all these other accounts. It's also what has started me on the path of moving off of all Google products. I still like Google, but the honeymoon is certainly over.
Reading through these comments - sounds like the classic "let's squeeze blood out of this rock" behavior that tech companies like Yelp go through with the realities of "you must always be increasing profit" take hold.
Anti-consumer behaviors out at the edge seem to always be the last throws for these companies.
Anti-consumer behaviors out at the edge seem to always be the last throws for these companies.
My immediate thought is "why would anyone use Google or Facebook to log into other services?" I understand the desire to consolidate login credentials, but surely it's better to use a password manager than to give additional personal information to proven bad actors like Google and Facebook?
I dropped DropBox when they put Condoleezza Rice on the board. Thanks for reminding me that that was a good move.
Same here, and I told everyone else.
The site is still up.
https://www.drop-dropbox.com/
The site is still up.
https://www.drop-dropbox.com/
There are some easy to access alternatives not to use Dropbox.
I'll be canceling my 10+ year subscription.
Also this is an great example of why to always create accounts under an email address you type in, not an identity service through faang.
I'll be canceling my 10+ year subscription.
Also this is an great example of why to always create accounts under an email address you type in, not an identity service through faang.
iCloud Drive is actually pretty decent now, except it seems to be completely random when it wants to sync files on Windows.
Even so, it can still easily cover 50% of use cases for Dropbox.
Even so, it can still easily cover 50% of use cases for Dropbox.
It's also "completely random" as to when it wants to sync files from MacOS to iOS. So at least it's consistent that way. :)
It is often instantaneous for files to sync from my Macbook to my iPhone. Other times it takes many hours. I haven't found a GUI option to force a sync.
It is often instantaneous for files to sync from my Macbook to my iPhone. Other times it takes many hours. I haven't found a GUI option to force a sync.
Upon hearing about this, my reflex was to wonder if google is in talks to acquire dropbox...but then i thought it through and just didn't see why the owner of google drive would want to acquire the owner of dropbox.
To the original point, yeah, pretty crappy. My hope is that when i go file my taxes, or renew my auto registration, or interact with "real" official and important stuff, that i do not get asked for my FAANG credentials.
To the original point, yeah, pretty crappy. My hope is that when i go file my taxes, or renew my auto registration, or interact with "real" official and important stuff, that i do not get asked for my FAANG credentials.
Do you need Google login though? I think for every platform I have created a separate account (and don't link them together).
Me too. I buy a domain and setup a forward-all email server.
For example, [email protected] for github. With a password manager, I won't confused at login.
And most importantly, use [email protected] at Facebook since I will see AD on Facebook about what I just browsed on another shopping site with the same email account.
For example, [email protected] for github. With a password manager, I won't confused at login.
And most importantly, use [email protected] at Facebook since I will see AD on Facebook about what I just browsed on another shopping site with the same email account.
"Facebook container" can be useful here
Facebook AD can target user by email /phone number:
https://www.facebook.com/business/help/170456843145568?id=24...
Container is not work in this case. But I use it too, it is useful on prevent me being tracked on random website.
https://www.facebook.com/business/help/170456843145568?id=24...
Container is not work in this case. But I use it too, it is useful on prevent me being tracked on random website.
I'm a little surprised that you don't want Dropbox to have your contacts, but store them at Google.
What is the best Dropbox alternative for Linux user? I do not want Electron based sync app and do not mind paying for secure file hosting. I'm using Dropbox as remote backup server, to complement local backups, but data size is only about 100GB.
Dropbox lost me (100% Linux user) when they decided that ext4 was the only file system they supported.
I've very happily moved over to Syncthing. For a small installation you could use a VPS at Digital Ocean or Vultr. You could even get a Raspberry Pi and a cheap external hard drive.
I've very happily moved over to Syncthing. For a small installation you could use a VPS at Digital Ocean or Vultr. You could even get a Raspberry Pi and a cheap external hard drive.
> Interesting that they chose this route when users are getting more and more privacy-aware.
Agreed. But it's also funny, because 'privacy-aware' and 'Google login' is a bit of a paradox.
Agreed. But it's also funny, because 'privacy-aware' and 'Google login' is a bit of a paradox.
Damn - I was the one who fought for dropbox vs onedrive which comes with our Office 365 subscription at work.
What a terrible sign!
I'll try out onedrive again, and if its good enough will start the (slow) migration.
What a terrible sign!
I'll try out onedrive again, and if its good enough will start the (slow) migration.
Check out https://ardrive.io new competitor in the storage space with an interesting model.
This is one of the many reasons why I prefer not use google to store contacts; you can grant the permissions, and not worry about it.
Airtable tries this too but you can still deny access, for now. Very off-putting first impressions for what is otherwise a solid app.
Hi, I'm working on a Dropbox alternative where only you own your data. It's still in beta, but files are already stored on the decentralized Sia Skynet network and only you have access because all files are encrypted with your key!
https://marstorage.hns.siasky.net/
How does one register?
This has been so since a year or so, still very annoying.
Isn't that against GDPR for european users?
Follow-up question: are they notifying the scooped contacts that they now hold their personal data, as required by Art. 14 of the GDPR? https://gdpr-info.eu/art-14-gdpr/
I was going to say no (and I've left my logic below for posterity), but maybe you have a point. The OP can't continue to use Dropbox without giving up some more privacy. They can't even get in to get their data out (although GDPR does take care of that).
Previous logic: They've asked for permission, been clear about what data they and presumably haven't prechecked anything (because they don't have control over that UI).
I don't think GDPR has any protection about a vendor locking you in and then asking to change the privacy policy.
Previous logic: They've asked for permission, been clear about what data they and presumably haven't prechecked anything (because they don't have control over that UI).
I don't think GDPR has any protection about a vendor locking you in and then asking to change the privacy policy.
Exactly. Consent must be freely given to be valid under GDPR. Here is some analysis on what this means by the European Data Protection Board:[0]
“ 3.1 Free / freely given12 13. The element “free” implies real choice and control for data subjects. As a general rule, the GDPR prescribes that if the data subject has no real choice, feels compelled to consent or will endure negative consequences if they do not consent, then consent will not be valid.13 If consent is bundled up as a non-negotiable part of terms and conditions it is presumed not to have been freely given. Accordingly, consent will not be considered to be free if the data subject is unable to refuse or withdraw his or her consent without detriment.14 The notion of imbalance between the controller and the data subject is also taken into consideration by the GDPR.”
[0] https://edpb.europa.eu/sites/edpb/files/files/file1/edpb_gui...
“ 3.1 Free / freely given12 13. The element “free” implies real choice and control for data subjects. As a general rule, the GDPR prescribes that if the data subject has no real choice, feels compelled to consent or will endure negative consequences if they do not consent, then consent will not be valid.13 If consent is bundled up as a non-negotiable part of terms and conditions it is presumed not to have been freely given. Accordingly, consent will not be considered to be free if the data subject is unable to refuse or withdraw his or her consent without detriment.14 The notion of imbalance between the controller and the data subject is also taken into consideration by the GDPR.”
[0] https://edpb.europa.eu/sites/edpb/files/files/file1/edpb_gui...
It is but the GDPR isn't being enforced even against bigger and more blatant violations so there's no risk there.
(please don't refute this with a link to enforcementtracker.com unless you can show me a fine that's even remotely close to being dissuasive)
(please don't refute this with a link to enforcementtracker.com unless you can show me a fine that's even remotely close to being dissuasive)
why people would use oauth for services like this?
I always use anonymous email
More convenient. No passwords, and better security. Everything is centralized (disadvantage too)
Also,
"why people would use anonymous email for services like this? I always use oauth"
Also,
"why people would use anonymous email for services like this? I always use oauth"
as for password, I use password manager.
Problem with oauth that I can't make e-mail unique and I can't know where spam is coming from.
ex: [email protected] will be unique for that domain.
Problem with oauth that I can't make e-mail unique and I can't know where spam is coming from.
ex: [email protected] will be unique for that domain.
I saw this a week ago and refused it as well...
For what???
is anyone here?
People are still using dropbox in the age of one-click nextclouds in aws, freenas, digitalocean, etc? Interesting.
You know, this could easily be taken in a condescending way.
I choose to use <insert name of service provider here> instead of rolling my own because I don't want to deal with the hassle.
And before you say "but it's a one-click install! what hassle?" I'll answer you: the hassle is not in launching it, the hassle is in keeping it online and operating well at all times.
People always forget about maintenance when they spout these things...
I choose to use <insert name of service provider here> instead of rolling my own because I don't want to deal with the hassle.
And before you say "but it's a one-click install! what hassle?" I'll answer you: the hassle is not in launching it, the hassle is in keeping it online and operating well at all times.
People always forget about maintenance when they spout these things...
And we've come full circle from Dropbox's initial announcement post [1] to this post, almost 14 years later.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software.
> nextclouds in aws
Now make the owncloud/nextcloud a reliable experience for more than one user, handle updates and occassional migrations, etc.
Now make the owncloud/nextcloud a reliable experience for more than one user, handle updates and occassional migrations, etc.
Dropbox is dramatically cheaper per GB than the other cloud storage services, and it doesn't charge bandwidth fees.
From my perspective, Dropbox was doomed to decline ever since they made a big splash about how proud they were of moving off of public cloud in to self manage data centers.
While they no doubt reduced their operating costs with that move, I couldn't help it feel that this meant that they were investing so many of their precious mental cycles, hiring cycles, maintenance cycles, into plumbing instead of user-centered innovation which was their original sweet spot.
What was celebrated at the time as a great example of how cloud is a big mistake for people to me is in fact the opposite and should be used in future as a good business case study.
Folks never think about the opportunity cost; they get blinded by $$$ figures which are so misleading
While they no doubt reduced their operating costs with that move, I couldn't help it feel that this meant that they were investing so many of their precious mental cycles, hiring cycles, maintenance cycles, into plumbing instead of user-centered innovation which was their original sweet spot.
What was celebrated at the time as a great example of how cloud is a big mistake for people to me is in fact the opposite and should be used in future as a good business case study.
Folks never think about the opportunity cost; they get blinded by $$$ figures which are so misleading
There's no reason why an org can't multitask their future plans. They more or less were forced to cut their own costs because their competitors owned the infrastructure they run on, they could never run cheaper than their competitors. Any good business leaves business roadmaps to different executives. Infrastructure doesn't need to be the primary concern of sales and product managers who should be plotting the growth of the company externally while a CTO is left to handle the "internal growth" of the company to match.
Their true problem regardless is staying relevant in a market where the competitors offer better value through bundling as entire IT and cloud platforms. There's no point for businesses to use Dropbox when Microsoft provides Onedrive for Windows businesses and Google provides gdrive with gsuite. Hell for consumers, Apple and Microsoft provide seamlessly integrated storage in their operating systems.
Dropbox can spend years developing their own office suite tools but they'll never be able to breach the brainshare and stability that the titans provide. There's only so many ways you can "innovate" file handling before you are flogging a dead horse or repainting a car tire for the 50th time. Dropbox's only chance was to breach heavily into cloud office suites _before_ google and microsoft jumped in full speed, which they didn't and the ship has sailed.
Does it mean they can't stay alive? Well, they are floundering and playing catch up is difficult. Even Box is eating their business lunch and carving a niche because they offer a true professional business interface for IT admins to configure everything, down to legal compliance requirements. Dropbox is a fucking toy in comparison too focused on minimal hipster UIs based on a design language they originally used for consumers and have tried to force it onto business for more years than they should have.
Their true problem regardless is staying relevant in a market where the competitors offer better value through bundling as entire IT and cloud platforms. There's no point for businesses to use Dropbox when Microsoft provides Onedrive for Windows businesses and Google provides gdrive with gsuite. Hell for consumers, Apple and Microsoft provide seamlessly integrated storage in their operating systems.
Dropbox can spend years developing their own office suite tools but they'll never be able to breach the brainshare and stability that the titans provide. There's only so many ways you can "innovate" file handling before you are flogging a dead horse or repainting a car tire for the 50th time. Dropbox's only chance was to breach heavily into cloud office suites _before_ google and microsoft jumped in full speed, which they didn't and the ship has sailed.
Does it mean they can't stay alive? Well, they are floundering and playing catch up is difficult. Even Box is eating their business lunch and carving a niche because they offer a true professional business interface for IT admins to configure everything, down to legal compliance requirements. Dropbox is a fucking toy in comparison too focused on minimal hipster UIs based on a design language they originally used for consumers and have tried to force it onto business for more years than they should have.
> I'm afraid that is not possible at the time. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Interesting that they chose this route when users are getting more and more privacy-aware.