Jack Ma Agrees to Shrink His Business Empire, Bowing to China Pressure(relayvibes.co)
relayvibes.co
Jack Ma Agrees to Shrink His Business Empire, Bowing to China Pressure
https://relayvibes.co/jack-ma-agrees-to-shrink-his-business-empire-bowing-to-china-pressure/
48 comments
... which links to the WSJ as their source. Not exactly plagiarism, but definitely reporting based on other people's reporting.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jack-mas-ant-plans-major-revamp...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/jack-mas-ant-plans-major-revamp...
Oh come on, the text of the Reality Vibes piece is literally a cut-and-paste from Business Insider with minor edits.
At least BI wrote their own text, it might contain the same information but the structure and text of the article is original.
At least BI wrote their own text, it might contain the same information but the structure and text of the article is original.
Personally I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Even before the government got involved I was a bit concerned at the rapid growth of personal consumer credit through platforms like Ant financial and it was something my friend and I would occasionally discuss. These fintech comapnies made it extremely easy to obtain a loan and actively pushed these financial products through advertisements. There were also growing numbers of anecdotes online and in real life of people who didn't necessarily know or understand the financial consequences of a personal loan and ended up sadelling themselves with debt they couldn't pay back. You have to remember that China is growing rapidly, for some people their previous generations were still farming somewhere in the countryside. Some of them may in fact still be in the countryside but have access to internet and a smartphone. They might not have the adequate financial literacy.
Rapidly increasing consumer debt in an economy is not necessarily a good thing as more than demonstrated by subprime debt in the 08 financial crises. If completely unchecked, it is in the interest of a company like Any to keep pushing out loans, and it wouldn't be that they are knowingly doing anything wrong. However it might not be good for the rest of society. I think western media enjoys portraying this whole incident in some sort of nefarious light but I actually think it's a prescient and responsible move.
Rapidly increasing consumer debt in an economy is not necessarily a good thing as more than demonstrated by subprime debt in the 08 financial crises. If completely unchecked, it is in the interest of a company like Any to keep pushing out loans, and it wouldn't be that they are knowingly doing anything wrong. However it might not be good for the rest of society. I think western media enjoys portraying this whole incident in some sort of nefarious light but I actually think it's a prescient and responsible move.
I asked a supporter of the Iranian government (from Bahrain) why Iran had restrictions on their democracy like only allowing approved candidates to run.
To which he replied, "Because you can't let a camel herder become President."
Deciding "people can't think for themselves" is a slippery slope. And you've got to be talking about a pretty serious ill to balance those scales. (Take it from a country that had a camel herder for a President for four years...)
To which he replied, "Because you can't let a camel herder become President."
Deciding "people can't think for themselves" is a slippery slope. And you've got to be talking about a pretty serious ill to balance those scales. (Take it from a country that had a camel herder for a President for four years...)
You WILL get a camel herder if you restrict though. Like they restricted Bernie.
I don’t think anyone in the West disagrees that Ant and Alibaba are big, possibly too big.
The problem is the means. The Western viewpoint is that it smells like the ends don’t justify the means, and China hardly has anything resembling rule of law.
The problem is the means. The Western viewpoint is that it smells like the ends don’t justify the means, and China hardly has anything resembling rule of law.
I'm a Westerner, so I know what you're saying. That said, on matters such as these, I think we've entered an era where the government of China does not care about the Western viewpoint. They see a potential threat to their economy, and they deal with it their own way. That's not good or bad, it's the reality of the more multi-polar era we're entering.
How do we operate in this era? That's up to really smart people in the bowels of Western capitols. But in my own opinion, rule of law or no, I'm not sure going to bat for the likes of Ant is a hill we want to send soldiers to die on as they say. Ant itself was intended to flout the rule of International Law. How do we argue on its behalf in the name of "rule of law"? That squanders what little credibility we do have in China.
How do we operate in this era? That's up to really smart people in the bowels of Western capitols. But in my own opinion, rule of law or no, I'm not sure going to bat for the likes of Ant is a hill we want to send soldiers to die on as they say. Ant itself was intended to flout the rule of International Law. How do we argue on its behalf in the name of "rule of law"? That squanders what little credibility we do have in China.
Maybe it's not a hill worth dying on (and I don't really see anyone actually sticking their neck out for Jack Ma) but it's a word of caution for anyone looking to invest in the exchanges in Shanghai and Hong Kong.
> I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing
Of course it's a bad thing when government can seize property at will without clear legislations, separation of power, checks and balances.
It's a bad omen, it means that Chinese institutions are flawed.
Of course it's a bad thing when government can seize property at will without clear legislations, separation of power, checks and balances.
It's a bad omen, it means that Chinese institutions are flawed.
> "Ma, a larger-than-life figure, criticized China's financial regulatory system last year.He now appears to have been brought to heel by Beijing."
You can be larger than life in China, you just cant be larger than CCP.
You can be larger than life in China, you just cant be larger than CCP.
Jack Ma made a kung fu short film where he fights Tony Jaa, Donnie Yen, Jet Li, among others.
It is titled Gong Shou Dao.
I would've agreed too
Headline sounds propaganda-ish. This is a normal regulatory move to break up monopoly in its one market, instead it’s made to sound like “big bad gov bully’s little guys”
Imagine a headline “Zuckerberg Agrees to Shrink His Business Empire, Bowing to US Pressure.” Does that sound like a natural headline a reasonable reporter would write?
Imagine a headline “Zuckerberg Agrees to Shrink His Business Empire, Bowing to US Pressure.” Does that sound like a natural headline a reasonable reporter would write?
Does the four month vacation at Lake Laogai enter into this picture anywhere?
> Imagine a headline “Zuckerberg Agrees to Shrink His Business Empire, Bowing to US Pressure.” Does that sound like a natural headline a reasonable reporter would write?
1. A quick search with my favorite search engine for "bowing to US pressure" returns many results by a variety of reputable outlets.
2. I don't believe that reporters typically write their own headlines.
1. A quick search with my favorite search engine for "bowing to US pressure" returns many results by a variety of reputable outlets.
2. I don't believe that reporters typically write their own headlines.
>A quick search with my favorite search engine for "bowing to US pressure" returns many results by a variety of reputable outlets.
They are mostly (or all I could find on the first pages) about other countries or international organizations, so I'd say there is at least some difference.
They are mostly (or all I could find on the first pages) about other countries or international organizations, so I'd say there is at least some difference.
Bowing to US pressure is exactly what companies do when they come under regulatory pressure. It's not a strange headline at all. Companies with large market share routinely curb their own actions to limit or bow to government pressure that is always present.
Intel would have eaten Nvidia and ARM a long time ago if that were not how things worked. Intel has been under 24/7 government pressure for decades. They're not allowed to behave the way Nvidia and AMD are allowed to behave, they're not allowed to acquire companies that some of their competitors are allowed to acquire. Intel has been on its knees bowing to government pressure for decades at this point, with two hands tied behind its back.
Intel would have eaten Nvidia and ARM a long time ago if that were not how things worked. Intel has been under 24/7 government pressure for decades. They're not allowed to behave the way Nvidia and AMD are allowed to behave, they're not allowed to acquire companies that some of their competitors are allowed to acquire. Intel has been on its knees bowing to government pressure for decades at this point, with two hands tied behind its back.
In all honesty, happy that he is around and able to run his business somewhat freely. It is still pretty good. There were rumors of his well-being a few months back.
One may argue that he decided to stand down and bow to all demands, no arguments. Otherwise, it might have been even worse.
China is not USA. Both have pros and cons.
One may argue that he decided to stand down and bow to all demands, no arguments. Otherwise, it might have been even worse.
China is not USA. Both have pros and cons.
Jack Ma was too high profile to disappear, from my Chinese co-workers, Jack Ma's shares have shrunken to almost nothing, this is just another one of the many "forced nationalization" except Jack gets to keep some of his assets.
background info: With the trade war and sanctions on HK, the CCP is running low on currency reserves and is going after private property and ownership. Expect more Chinese billionaires to disappear for a while and happily praise their relinquishment of ownership.
Side track but similar situation in S. Korea: Current Korean administration is also trying to force Jay Lee (Samsung Heir & ex-CEO) to sell a huge chunk of his shares to the government (would force the share prices to tank). Word on the street is Samsung is going to nationalize which would spell disaster for the Korean economy which relies 25% of its GDP on Samsung.
background info: With the trade war and sanctions on HK, the CCP is running low on currency reserves and is going after private property and ownership. Expect more Chinese billionaires to disappear for a while and happily praise their relinquishment of ownership.
Side track but similar situation in S. Korea: Current Korean administration is also trying to force Jay Lee (Samsung Heir & ex-CEO) to sell a huge chunk of his shares to the government (would force the share prices to tank). Word on the street is Samsung is going to nationalize which would spell disaster for the Korean economy which relies 25% of its GDP on Samsung.
1. Jack Ma's share is not significant is known several years ago, because a. he was generous in given shares to people and that works better for BABA b. BABA hasn't been profitable for long time and has taken several rounds of VC money. These were the days without now common A / B class share structure. That was why BABA chose to use the innovative "partnership" structure to retain control (and also getting rid of Yahoo Japan's controlling shares) when IPOing.
2. private ownership != currency reserves. IF CCP is running low on currency reserves (which they don't at the moment, it was a few years back, since then they strengthened capital control), they can force the companies to pulling money back to the mainland, i.e. pumping up USD reserve and given out CNY to these companies. They don't need ownership. In fact, this happened to Wanda and Hainai Airlines a few years ago, when they invested aggressively overseas, and has since then pulled back the capital (sold these oversea assets) to mainland.
The art of dictatorship is strange, and requires much better understanding than just "evil takes over private ownership".
2. private ownership != currency reserves. IF CCP is running low on currency reserves (which they don't at the moment, it was a few years back, since then they strengthened capital control), they can force the companies to pulling money back to the mainland, i.e. pumping up USD reserve and given out CNY to these companies. They don't need ownership. In fact, this happened to Wanda and Hainai Airlines a few years ago, when they invested aggressively overseas, and has since then pulled back the capital (sold these oversea assets) to mainland.
The art of dictatorship is strange, and requires much better understanding than just "evil takes over private ownership".
> The art of dictatorship is strange, and requires much better understanding than just "evil takes over private ownership".
Also, dictators have no need to own anything (at least domestically). They already have the power, so what do they gain by "owning" something they already control? IMHO, private property/ownership is really only a useful concept when you have to allocate control among legally-equal(ish) peers.
I think a lot of people really only understand their own place in their own society, and a lot of time they end up just projecting that onto some other situation when it doesn't really apply.
Also, dictators have no need to own anything (at least domestically). They already have the power, so what do they gain by "owning" something they already control? IMHO, private property/ownership is really only a useful concept when you have to allocate control among legally-equal(ish) peers.
I think a lot of people really only understand their own place in their own society, and a lot of time they end up just projecting that onto some other situation when it doesn't really apply.
Right, Vladimir Putin is arguably one of the richest men in the world, but none of it is "on the books" as he just has dozens of "state-owned" palaces and mansions throughout Russia.
The art of dicatorship, I heard it here first!
There is apparently a movie by the same name about Iraqi art : https://www.journeyman.tv/film/1468/the-art-of-dictatorship ( 2002 )
There is apparently a movie by the same name about Iraqi art : https://www.journeyman.tv/film/1468/the-art-of-dictatorship ( 2002 )
> The art of dictatorship is strange, and requires much better understanding than just "evil takes over private ownership".
wow. I can't believe I am reading this on HN.
wow. I can't believe I am reading this on HN.
Christianity is basically a dictatorship where god is the dictator. Many people consider Christianity to be a good thing, so it's not that hard to believe that a dictatorship can be more than just purely evil.
Do not let your biased associations drive the meaning of a concept. Dictatorship, democracy, communism, capitalism and socialism are not inherently good or bad and they are not "teams" you should join or support. They are concepts that have examples of success and failure when executed in the real world.
Do not let your biased associations drive the meaning of a concept. Dictatorship, democracy, communism, capitalism and socialism are not inherently good or bad and they are not "teams" you should join or support. They are concepts that have examples of success and failure when executed in the real world.
No, God in Christianity is not a dictator and this misunderstands both the religion and the concept of dictatorship. Even if God were such a figure, he freely allows his subjects to choose the (ultimately unsatisfactory) life away from him. Ask the Uighurs if they have such an option.
Sometimes the sheer ignorance on display here is appalling. Honestly.
Sometimes the sheer ignorance on display here is appalling. Honestly.
God willed the Uighurs to have no option just as he willed your misguided reply to my comment. He also ironically willed me into becoming an atheist. Essentially, God is not only the dictator of humanity he is the dictator of reality as we know it.
You're ignorant. See sources below that claim god is basically king:
https://blog.faithlife.com/blog/2019/10/10-bible-verses-that...
https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_king
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/god/god-is-the-king-of-glo...
https://www.cbcpierre.org/sermonsnew/God-is-King
http://thebibleboy.com/bible-commentary/attributes-of-god-pa...
https://thirdmill.org/seminary/lesson.asp/vid/135
King is basically the same thing as dictator FYI. If you don't want to call it fascism, call it a monarchy. It's just words for essentially the same thing.
You're ignorant. See sources below that claim god is basically king:
https://blog.faithlife.com/blog/2019/10/10-bible-verses-that...
https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_king
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/god/god-is-the-king-of-glo...
https://www.cbcpierre.org/sermonsnew/God-is-King
http://thebibleboy.com/bible-commentary/attributes-of-god-pa...
https://thirdmill.org/seminary/lesson.asp/vid/135
King is basically the same thing as dictator FYI. If you don't want to call it fascism, call it a monarchy. It's just words for essentially the same thing.
Okay, you seem to just be a troll account. My mistake for engaging.
Not a troll. It's more convenient for your to think I'm a troll rather then face reality and admit I'm totally right.
No, I’m sorry but you clearly don’t have much knowledge of Christianity or religion in general. As is usual with the vocal atheist crowd, unfortunately. None of what you said or linked to is the mainstream or even acceptable fringe of Christian thought. As I said above, your understanding of these issues is very lacking.
Even if one were to assume your ignorant argument is true, it’s also not really relevant. The fact that God is a “King” doesn’t somehow confer the same properties onto human kings or governments. Again, basic theology 101 here.
These are quite interesting topics but the level of discussion (exemplified by your remarks here) is often at such a low level, it’s kind of embarrassing, honestly.
Even if one were to assume your ignorant argument is true, it’s also not really relevant. The fact that God is a “King” doesn’t somehow confer the same properties onto human kings or governments. Again, basic theology 101 here.
These are quite interesting topics but the level of discussion (exemplified by your remarks here) is often at such a low level, it’s kind of embarrassing, honestly.
>No, I’m sorry but you clearly don’t have much knowledge of Christianity or religion in general.
And you clearly don't know my background. I may be atheist now but I wasn't in the past. Also there is no need to disparage an entire demographic as you just did to atheists. I have said nothing negative or insulting about Christians, so I humbly request you do the same. Either way we're not debating the validity of your religion here, we are discussing a specific point.
>Even if one were to assume your ignorant argument is true, it’s also not really relevant. The fact that God is a “King” doesn’t somehow confer the same properties onto human kings or governments. Again, basic theology 101 here.
And how is this statement relevant? Did I say God being "king" confers the same properties onto human kings? No I didn't. Again, basic English 101 here, if I didn't say something no need to argue against it.
What I did say is god is an example of a dictatorship because it fits the definition of the word.
https://www.wordreference.com/definition/dictatorship
Colloquially, as referenced in the source above, the definition of the non-government usage of the word "dictatorship" is "absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control" which is an apt description of Gods dominion over reality.
>These are quite interesting topics but the level of discussion (exemplified by your remarks here) is often at such a low level, it’s kind of embarrassing, honestly.
One thing that's not very christian is to insult others and to call them "embarrassing." You've been calling me ignorant throughout this conversation. It's obviously done for the purposes of being insulting because in normal human interactions nobody will disparage another party for being stupid, embarrassing or ignorant even if they believe those qualities are true. From this logic it can only be concluded that your remarks are actually deliberate and targeted insults. Very unchristian-like, given that I've only called you "ignorant" as a retaliation. The christian thing for you to do is to apologize.
“And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. You have heard that it is said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
Matthew 5:40-43 ESV
Given that I've done nothing to take advantage of you, the proverb above is an even greater reason why you should walk two miles with me and to stop with the deliberate insults. You are obligated to continue the discussion in a way that is more christian-like.
>None of what you said or linked to is the mainstream or even acceptable fringe of Christian thought.
What I did to get those resources is I googled "God is king" then I randomly selected sources from the top results. So basically what happened here is google's selection algorithm (which conventionally chooses the most popular results) obviously is buggy and delivered me many fringe results along with mainstream ones. This along with my random selection of sources by happenstance also avoided results that were mainstream. I'm serious, this is categorically a possibility and is, according to your observations, unequivocally what occurred here.
What will be definitive and completely possible is you finding me the same amount of sources from better mainstream christian sources to prove your point. Logically if what you say is true, your sources should be easier to find then how I found mine. Obviously you should avoid google, as the algorithm is buggy. I suggest you use duck duck go and some other search term that will get you what you want.
Also I would say 5 different sources citing your point, along with the search term and the search engine you used to find those sources will help me verify how mainstream your point is, because clearly it is unlikely for both google and another search engine to both be buggy and by happenstance deliver fringe results.
In short, your point here is that god is not a "king" or a "dictator" even though the bible has a quote directly saying he is "king". It's quite possible that mainstream christian thought has come up with some other symbolic definition of the word "king" to make the religion more compatible with modern society. I however have not seen ANY sources for that possibility but you are claiming that not only have you seen resources for it, it is mainstream christian belief. Prove it then.
Now that I laid it all out... give me your sources or give me your excuses. Choose.
And you clearly don't know my background. I may be atheist now but I wasn't in the past. Also there is no need to disparage an entire demographic as you just did to atheists. I have said nothing negative or insulting about Christians, so I humbly request you do the same. Either way we're not debating the validity of your religion here, we are discussing a specific point.
>Even if one were to assume your ignorant argument is true, it’s also not really relevant. The fact that God is a “King” doesn’t somehow confer the same properties onto human kings or governments. Again, basic theology 101 here.
And how is this statement relevant? Did I say God being "king" confers the same properties onto human kings? No I didn't. Again, basic English 101 here, if I didn't say something no need to argue against it.
What I did say is god is an example of a dictatorship because it fits the definition of the word.
https://www.wordreference.com/definition/dictatorship
Colloquially, as referenced in the source above, the definition of the non-government usage of the word "dictatorship" is "absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control" which is an apt description of Gods dominion over reality.
>These are quite interesting topics but the level of discussion (exemplified by your remarks here) is often at such a low level, it’s kind of embarrassing, honestly.
One thing that's not very christian is to insult others and to call them "embarrassing." You've been calling me ignorant throughout this conversation. It's obviously done for the purposes of being insulting because in normal human interactions nobody will disparage another party for being stupid, embarrassing or ignorant even if they believe those qualities are true. From this logic it can only be concluded that your remarks are actually deliberate and targeted insults. Very unchristian-like, given that I've only called you "ignorant" as a retaliation. The christian thing for you to do is to apologize.
“And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. You have heard that it is said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
Matthew 5:40-43 ESV
Given that I've done nothing to take advantage of you, the proverb above is an even greater reason why you should walk two miles with me and to stop with the deliberate insults. You are obligated to continue the discussion in a way that is more christian-like.
>None of what you said or linked to is the mainstream or even acceptable fringe of Christian thought.
What I did to get those resources is I googled "God is king" then I randomly selected sources from the top results. So basically what happened here is google's selection algorithm (which conventionally chooses the most popular results) obviously is buggy and delivered me many fringe results along with mainstream ones. This along with my random selection of sources by happenstance also avoided results that were mainstream. I'm serious, this is categorically a possibility and is, according to your observations, unequivocally what occurred here.
What will be definitive and completely possible is you finding me the same amount of sources from better mainstream christian sources to prove your point. Logically if what you say is true, your sources should be easier to find then how I found mine. Obviously you should avoid google, as the algorithm is buggy. I suggest you use duck duck go and some other search term that will get you what you want.
Also I would say 5 different sources citing your point, along with the search term and the search engine you used to find those sources will help me verify how mainstream your point is, because clearly it is unlikely for both google and another search engine to both be buggy and by happenstance deliver fringe results.
In short, your point here is that god is not a "king" or a "dictator" even though the bible has a quote directly saying he is "king". It's quite possible that mainstream christian thought has come up with some other symbolic definition of the word "king" to make the religion more compatible with modern society. I however have not seen ANY sources for that possibility but you are claiming that not only have you seen resources for it, it is mainstream christian belief. Prove it then.
Now that I laid it all out... give me your sources or give me your excuses. Choose.
It’s not my job to do your research for you. A religion is the cumulative result of thousands of years of culture and thought. Googling some random Biblical phrases isn’t really much of an argument...especially considering that a majority of Christians look more to the church or to tradition than the Bible itself. Again, basic theology. Likewise with the notion that God "wills" everything: this is called "the problem of free will" and millenia of books have been written about it.
And again, God is not a dictator because a dictator is a human concept derived from the Roman republic. The comparison to religious entities is nonsensical. As I’ve said a few times now, anyone with basic knowledge of theology would know this. You can’t expect to google something and get a clear, understandable answer in five minutes. It doesn’t work that way with something as all-permeating as the influence and definition of religion. There are literally thousands of scholars that have written books on these topics.
I said "vocal atheists" above because this is a common habit of that community: the assumption that if something can't be argued for by assembling a bunch of google results, it must clearly be nonsense. Sorry, but reality doesn't work that way.
Finally, I’m not a Christian and never have been. I just find the constant ignorance of religion to be tiresome. Anyone who had spent considerable time studying Christianity or other religions would immediately recognize that you have a very confused understanding of them both. My initial comment was just calling you out for it.
I suggest starting here:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-hiddenness/
And again, God is not a dictator because a dictator is a human concept derived from the Roman republic. The comparison to religious entities is nonsensical. As I’ve said a few times now, anyone with basic knowledge of theology would know this. You can’t expect to google something and get a clear, understandable answer in five minutes. It doesn’t work that way with something as all-permeating as the influence and definition of religion. There are literally thousands of scholars that have written books on these topics.
I said "vocal atheists" above because this is a common habit of that community: the assumption that if something can't be argued for by assembling a bunch of google results, it must clearly be nonsense. Sorry, but reality doesn't work that way.
Finally, I’m not a Christian and never have been. I just find the constant ignorance of religion to be tiresome. Anyone who had spent considerable time studying Christianity or other religions would immediately recognize that you have a very confused understanding of them both. My initial comment was just calling you out for it.
I suggest starting here:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-hiddenness/
>A religion is the cumulative result of thousands of years of culture and thought. Googling some random Biblical phrases isn’t really much of an argument...especially considering that a majority of Christians look more to the church or to tradition than the Bible itself.
Whether the result is derived from 10,000 hours of research or 5 minutes of googling is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the veracity of the main point.
For example if I google the statistics about the population within the united states, I receive the result in seconds, the speed in which I found the results has nothing to do with the accuracy of the results.
The method to prove sources wrong is to offer counter sources. Not to declare it invalid because it came from google.
> especially considering that a majority of Christians look more to the church or to tradition than the Bible itself.
When people refer to Christians they don't refer to the bible or some religious document they refer to the people representing the religion as a whole, aka "the majority of Christians." Such was what I was referring to. Thus by your own logic are you admitting that the "majority of Christians" believe god is king/dictator? If so there is no validity in calling me ignorant as you are specifically slicing the definition of christian to refer to a specific interpretation of the bible.
>And again, God is not a dictator because a dictator is a human concept derived from the Roman republic.
How does the etymology of a word have to do with anything? The arena for this discussion is not an anthropology or linguistics class, the arena of discussion is the internet therefore only the colloquial definition of "dictator" applies. Again I googled a source and cited it as the definition of the word "dictator" and that definition applies to my point.
>I said "vocal atheists" above because this is a common habit of that community: the assumption that if something can't be argued for by assembling a bunch of google results, it must clearly be nonsense.
This is an insult to an entire demographic of people with differing beliefs. Why? Because no reasonable person believes that being unable to assemble an argument in 5 minutes means that the argument is invalid. Any reasonable person knows this. Therefore, for you to declare this as true for an entire demographic is an deliberate and targeted insult. Very unchristian like.
If you can't assemble an argument using google results then that simply means you can't construct an argument given the time frame and context and that you have failed to convince me and anyone reading this about the validity of your arguments. It doesn't mean your argument is not true, nobody on earth believes this. We all know that every argument is subject to disproof at any time. There is no need do disparage an entire demographic just because you can't articulate your argument at this point in time.
>Finally, I’m not a Christian and never have been. I just find the constant ignorance of religion to be tiresome. Anyone who had spent considerable time studying Christianity or other religions would immediately recognize that you have a very confused understanding of them both. My initial comment was just calling you out for it.
You're obviously not an atheist. Given these statements, my guess is that you're either part of some other Judaic sect or you just believe in your own interpretation of the bible. What you are and your interpretation of the bible is irrelevant because my comment was directed at "the majority of Christians." Your argument seems to be coming from a different angle that is off topic.
Also you cite a bunch of sources from the Standford encyclopedia of philosophy. I would argue that the Standford encyclopedia of philosophy is a bad source for the topic at hand. Standford is an academic institution where many researchers tend to believe in the scientific method over the faith based tenets of Christians. Such contradictory tenets make it a shaky source. When asking the question: What do the "majority of Christians" believe in? .... the academic institution of Stanford is a biased source. Instead of asking Stanford, it's better to directly ask "the majority of Christians" instead.
Additionally philosophy is sort of an objective look at the religion and trying to codify all the concepts, contradictions and connections into universal vocabulary. This is not the point of my argument. The point of my example is what people in the world actually believe. And It very much looks like "The Majority of Christians" believe god is king.
Your best bet here to convince me and other people reading is to find some document that examines the definition of the word "king" and "lord" within this proverb:
"He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. . . . On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."
-Revelation 19:13, 16
Basically if you can prove that Christianity reinterprets the word "lord" and "king" to mean something other than the colloquial definition of the term "dictatorship" and that the "majority of Christians" believe that definition then you're right.
Religion and many human mythological beliefs are not immune to contradiction so arguing for some contradictory theological concept won't exactly prove anything if you still have millions of Christians chanting "God is king" at church every Sunday. Christians can believe god is a dictator at the same time they can also believe in freewill, such is the fallacy of human thinking. But don't all dictators grant their subjects free will anyway? "You're free to oppose me but then I'll execute you (make you burn in hell)."
If you fail to respond with anything substantial it could be because of what you said: It's not your job to do research for me or other readers of HN. Other readers of HN and I will of course consider this as a possibility, but of course we will also consider the possibility that you can't find anything substantial because you know you're wrong.
Whether the result is derived from 10,000 hours of research or 5 minutes of googling is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the veracity of the main point.
For example if I google the statistics about the population within the united states, I receive the result in seconds, the speed in which I found the results has nothing to do with the accuracy of the results.
The method to prove sources wrong is to offer counter sources. Not to declare it invalid because it came from google.
> especially considering that a majority of Christians look more to the church or to tradition than the Bible itself.
When people refer to Christians they don't refer to the bible or some religious document they refer to the people representing the religion as a whole, aka "the majority of Christians." Such was what I was referring to. Thus by your own logic are you admitting that the "majority of Christians" believe god is king/dictator? If so there is no validity in calling me ignorant as you are specifically slicing the definition of christian to refer to a specific interpretation of the bible.
>And again, God is not a dictator because a dictator is a human concept derived from the Roman republic.
How does the etymology of a word have to do with anything? The arena for this discussion is not an anthropology or linguistics class, the arena of discussion is the internet therefore only the colloquial definition of "dictator" applies. Again I googled a source and cited it as the definition of the word "dictator" and that definition applies to my point.
>I said "vocal atheists" above because this is a common habit of that community: the assumption that if something can't be argued for by assembling a bunch of google results, it must clearly be nonsense.
This is an insult to an entire demographic of people with differing beliefs. Why? Because no reasonable person believes that being unable to assemble an argument in 5 minutes means that the argument is invalid. Any reasonable person knows this. Therefore, for you to declare this as true for an entire demographic is an deliberate and targeted insult. Very unchristian like.
If you can't assemble an argument using google results then that simply means you can't construct an argument given the time frame and context and that you have failed to convince me and anyone reading this about the validity of your arguments. It doesn't mean your argument is not true, nobody on earth believes this. We all know that every argument is subject to disproof at any time. There is no need do disparage an entire demographic just because you can't articulate your argument at this point in time.
>Finally, I’m not a Christian and never have been. I just find the constant ignorance of religion to be tiresome. Anyone who had spent considerable time studying Christianity or other religions would immediately recognize that you have a very confused understanding of them both. My initial comment was just calling you out for it.
You're obviously not an atheist. Given these statements, my guess is that you're either part of some other Judaic sect or you just believe in your own interpretation of the bible. What you are and your interpretation of the bible is irrelevant because my comment was directed at "the majority of Christians." Your argument seems to be coming from a different angle that is off topic.
Also you cite a bunch of sources from the Standford encyclopedia of philosophy. I would argue that the Standford encyclopedia of philosophy is a bad source for the topic at hand. Standford is an academic institution where many researchers tend to believe in the scientific method over the faith based tenets of Christians. Such contradictory tenets make it a shaky source. When asking the question: What do the "majority of Christians" believe in? .... the academic institution of Stanford is a biased source. Instead of asking Stanford, it's better to directly ask "the majority of Christians" instead.
Additionally philosophy is sort of an objective look at the religion and trying to codify all the concepts, contradictions and connections into universal vocabulary. This is not the point of my argument. The point of my example is what people in the world actually believe. And It very much looks like "The Majority of Christians" believe god is king.
Your best bet here to convince me and other people reading is to find some document that examines the definition of the word "king" and "lord" within this proverb:
"He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. . . . On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."
-Revelation 19:13, 16
Basically if you can prove that Christianity reinterprets the word "lord" and "king" to mean something other than the colloquial definition of the term "dictatorship" and that the "majority of Christians" believe that definition then you're right.
Religion and many human mythological beliefs are not immune to contradiction so arguing for some contradictory theological concept won't exactly prove anything if you still have millions of Christians chanting "God is king" at church every Sunday. Christians can believe god is a dictator at the same time they can also believe in freewill, such is the fallacy of human thinking. But don't all dictators grant their subjects free will anyway? "You're free to oppose me but then I'll execute you (make you burn in hell)."
If you fail to respond with anything substantial it could be because of what you said: It's not your job to do research for me or other readers of HN. Other readers of HN and I will of course consider this as a possibility, but of course we will also consider the possibility that you can't find anything substantial because you know you're wrong.
[deleted]
Um... no. Christians are Christians by choice. Those under a dictator have no choice.
Maybe use Singapore's 'benevolent dictator' as your example?
Maybe use Singapore's 'benevolent dictator' as your example?
That's the meta view from the outside looking in. If you truly believe in Christianity then you truly believe God is the dictator and you believe there isn't a choice in the matter. Most Christians are okay with this, which is my point.
I could use a real world example like Singapore but there are imperfections in that country. God is an example of a perfect dictatorship in every possible conceivable way, it's even better than democracy.
I could use a real world example like Singapore but there are imperfections in that country. God is an example of a perfect dictatorship in every possible conceivable way, it's even better than democracy.
When I was born, I was not a Christian.
In order to become Christian, I had to choose to accept God as my Dictator.
Later, I gave up the notion of God and Christianity, again by choice.
It's like putting yourself in a prison where you can leave any time you like. Are you still in prison? Likewise, is God really a dictator?
In order to become Christian, I had to choose to accept God as my Dictator.
Later, I gave up the notion of God and Christianity, again by choice.
It's like putting yourself in a prison where you can leave any time you like. Are you still in prison? Likewise, is God really a dictator?
Yes if you accept and embrace your boss as the owner of your time, then you have placed a yolk on your own back. You may have exercised choice, but there’s also a yolk on your back.
Except your spiritual boss will only accept 100% and not some time sharing agreement, and that you must do so on faith, surrendering everything. Or you go to hell.
Except your spiritual boss will only accept 100% and not some time sharing agreement, and that you must do so on faith, surrendering everything. Or you go to hell.
I can't believe I'm reading a comment that good on HN in 2021 :)
It's refreshing. Yes, the CCP is not about evil - and the top comment nailed it: Ma was encouraging change that was too fast and potentially damaging.
China has being doing great, following a path that the West disapprove. Maybe the West should give the benefit of doubt, giving the track record of success in real world execution.
It's refreshing. Yes, the CCP is not about evil - and the top comment nailed it: Ma was encouraging change that was too fast and potentially damaging.
China has being doing great, following a path that the West disapprove. Maybe the West should give the benefit of doubt, giving the track record of success in real world execution.
> China has being doing great, following a path that the West disapprove.
China is doing a typical catch up development due to low base/high labour supply. USSR did this during Stalin's ruling, many others did so as well.
There is nothing unique or spectacular here. China is still a dirt poor country with GDP per capita at 15% of that of the US.
When they will become closer to developed nations' economic level, they'll need more sophisticated institutions, rule of law, or they would face a middle income trap.
For now they can grow by simply utilizing their large factors of production, even dictatorship can do this.
China is doing a typical catch up development due to low base/high labour supply. USSR did this during Stalin's ruling, many others did so as well.
There is nothing unique or spectacular here. China is still a dirt poor country with GDP per capita at 15% of that of the US.
When they will become closer to developed nations' economic level, they'll need more sophisticated institutions, rule of law, or they would face a middle income trap.
For now they can grow by simply utilizing their large factors of production, even dictatorship can do this.
It's one thing to be excessively against china it's another thing to be excessively pro china. You are the former.
What has a occurred in China is an economic miracle that has never been seen in the history of human civilization. This does not mean china is perfect. Far from it.
It is very very inaccurate to label it as "nothing unique or spectacular."
What has a occurred in China is an economic miracle that has never been seen in the history of human civilization. This does not mean china is perfect. Far from it.
It is very very inaccurate to label it as "nothing unique or spectacular."
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