Why You Should Take Any Vaccine(zeynep.substack.com)
zeynep.substack.com
Why You Should Take Any Vaccine
https://zeynep.substack.com/p/why-you-should-take-any-vaccine
92 comments
I feel like if anybody wanted to apply critical thinking they were immediately called an anti vaxer. I think people should always question everything. And since the science and research is valid I think most people come to the conclusion that it’s fine.
I've read that up to 76% of the medical professional in some EU countries are refusing the vaccine, so I wonder why they do that if the science is so valid.
Antivaxx craze and fake news network effects can only explain so much.
Antivaxx craze and fake news network effects can only explain so much.
This kind of quoting of a "scary sounding" statistic is why people get called anti-vaxx. You heard something, and are repeating it with the intent to cause people to worry, without providing any actual facts.
I looked it up. 76% of "nursing home staff" in France are refusing the vaccine. I don't generally take my vaccination advice from people working in care homes, and the Reuters article implies that it is generally because these employees are skeptical of the government, not on any scientific basis: https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-france-va...
I looked it up. 76% of "nursing home staff" in France are refusing the vaccine. I don't generally take my vaccination advice from people working in care homes, and the Reuters article implies that it is generally because these employees are skeptical of the government, not on any scientific basis: https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-france-va...
This article has the 76% figure https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-health-wo...
>Why the scepticism?
>The nurse who spoke to FranceInfo said that the arguments her colleagues gave against the vaccine were typical of those being shared often online.
>“It’s too fast, there is a lack of objectivity, the vaccine is hiding something, why have they still not found a vaccine against AIDS...” she said.
Which seems more like general news story type arguments rather than anything scientific
>Why the scepticism?
>The nurse who spoke to FranceInfo said that the arguments her colleagues gave against the vaccine were typical of those being shared often online.
>“It’s too fast, there is a lack of objectivity, the vaccine is hiding something, why have they still not found a vaccine against AIDS...” she said.
Which seems more like general news story type arguments rather than anything scientific
Great sleuthing, thanks
Not sure where this number is from. One of the main challenges of vaccine takeup in France and Germany (including health staff) is more about having a preference for the higher efficacy vaccines over the AstraZenica.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56242617
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56242617
In the case of health staff, that might actually be a good idea.
From what I've read, all of the vaccines approved for emergency use so far in the US and EU stop 100% or close to it of severe cases and hospitalizations. Vaccinated people who get COVID get a case that is no worse than a mild to moderate seasonal flu.
The high efficacy vaccines reduces your chances of getting COVID at all quite a bit more than the ones with lesser efficacy.
For someone like me, who works at home and only goes out every so often for groceries, if I get COVID there is a very good chance I'll notice symptoms before I would next go out, and so can quarantine myself and not spread it.
My main concern, then, is ensuring that if I do catch it I get at most a mild case. Any of the vaccines will do that for me, so for me it makes the most sense to take the first one offered to me.
For health staff, they won't be working at home. If they get COVID they might have plenty of chances to spread it in the couple of days or so it takes to start showing symptoms. And the people they will be spreading it to, besides other health workers, will include people who are already weakened from whatever they have come to the doctor or hospital to have treated.
So for health staff we need more than just turning their cases mild. We want to stop them from getting it in the first place. Hence, they should be getting the high efficacy vaccines.
From what I've read, all of the vaccines approved for emergency use so far in the US and EU stop 100% or close to it of severe cases and hospitalizations. Vaccinated people who get COVID get a case that is no worse than a mild to moderate seasonal flu.
The high efficacy vaccines reduces your chances of getting COVID at all quite a bit more than the ones with lesser efficacy.
For someone like me, who works at home and only goes out every so often for groceries, if I get COVID there is a very good chance I'll notice symptoms before I would next go out, and so can quarantine myself and not spread it.
My main concern, then, is ensuring that if I do catch it I get at most a mild case. Any of the vaccines will do that for me, so for me it makes the most sense to take the first one offered to me.
For health staff, they won't be working at home. If they get COVID they might have plenty of chances to spread it in the couple of days or so it takes to start showing symptoms. And the people they will be spreading it to, besides other health workers, will include people who are already weakened from whatever they have come to the doctor or hospital to have treated.
So for health staff we need more than just turning their cases mild. We want to stop them from getting it in the first place. Hence, they should be getting the high efficacy vaccines.
> I've read that up to 76% of the medical professional in some EU countries are refusing the vaccine, so I wonder why they do that is the science is so valid.
Cite or you get a downvote. Name the country and the vaccine type.
Would I take any of Moderna, J&J, etc. developed under scrutiny and forced to open their data to the public? Sure.
Would I take one of the Russian or Chinese vaccines that have had questionable data releases? Probably not.
Cite or you get a downvote. Name the country and the vaccine type.
Would I take any of Moderna, J&J, etc. developed under scrutiny and forced to open their data to the public? Sure.
Would I take one of the Russian or Chinese vaccines that have had questionable data releases? Probably not.
This FT article mentions the 76%, but the reference article is paywalled. It talks about specifically nursing home employees, so your skepticism is well warranted. This article from Reuters was the best un-paywalled one I could find, but lacks the % claim: https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-france-va...
> Cite or you get a downvote.
Relax I just wrote from memory - I remembed the number, not the source, but someone gave an actual source. Happy?
> Would I take one of the Russian or Chinese vaccines that have had questionable data releases? Probably not.
I will happily take any vaccine that has been tested over 10M peoplefor over 1 year - even better if it's a tried and true old technology (not mRNA) like at least Astra Zeneca.
Until then, I will wait and let the other find out the potential dangers for me.
I am young and healthy, almost no risk, so waiting won't change my plans or behaviours.
And I don't presume to tell anyone what they should do (even if I really prefer if everybody got vaccinated, for herd immunity) - just what I am doing for myself.
Relax I just wrote from memory - I remembed the number, not the source, but someone gave an actual source. Happy?
> Would I take one of the Russian or Chinese vaccines that have had questionable data releases? Probably not.
I will happily take any vaccine that has been tested over 10M peoplefor over 1 year - even better if it's a tried and true old technology (not mRNA) like at least Astra Zeneca.
Until then, I will wait and let the other find out the potential dangers for me.
I am young and healthy, almost no risk, so waiting won't change my plans or behaviours.
And I don't presume to tell anyone what they should do (even if I really prefer if everybody got vaccinated, for herd immunity) - just what I am doing for myself.
You'd rather take your chances with the virus? Or do you plan on hibernating for another 12 months? I hope you don't imagine that any of the rest of us are going to share your caution.
> I will happily take any vaccine that has been tested over 10M people for over 1 year
But that is bullshit.
A.) Because we did already vaccinated more than 10 m people with each vaccine.
B.) We already did phase 2 trials to know it is safe!
Repeat after me: Vaccines are at least 1000x to 100000x safer than going unvaccinated.
But that is bullshit.
A.) Because we did already vaccinated more than 10 m people with each vaccine.
B.) We already did phase 2 trials to know it is safe!
Repeat after me: Vaccines are at least 1000x to 100000x safer than going unvaccinated.
To those that are downvoting: To give you some numbers after over 25m doses of vaccine delivered in the US. The current stats of severe allergic reaction to vaccines (which is the most severe adverse advent reported) stands at 4.7 cases of 1 million (!) doses administered. Even though these are severe reactions, they are still temporary/transient.
It might be hard to comprehend, but vaccines are very safe.
It might be hard to comprehend, but vaccines are very safe.
And quoting the cite:
> One reason for the scepticism is that those recommending the vaccine are the same people - the French state - whom care home workers blame for their low pay and tough working conditions, said Malika Belarbi, a care worker and trade union official.
So, basically, this has nothing to do with whether the vaccines are or are not medically okay but everything to do with the fact that the workers don't trust the people who have crapped on them.
And, when you say care workers, normally those people are NOT medical professionals (most, in fact, are probably immigrant labor).
The downvote stays.
> One reason for the scepticism is that those recommending the vaccine are the same people - the French state - whom care home workers blame for their low pay and tough working conditions, said Malika Belarbi, a care worker and trade union official.
So, basically, this has nothing to do with whether the vaccines are or are not medically okay but everything to do with the fact that the workers don't trust the people who have crapped on them.
And, when you say care workers, normally those people are NOT medical professionals (most, in fact, are probably immigrant labor).
The downvote stays.
>The downvote stays.
You're not a hacker news celebrity. You have no authority here. You need an ego check. I just upvoted him for no reason other than to demonstrate 1=1.
You're not a hacker news celebrity. You have no authority here. You need an ego check. I just upvoted him for no reason other than to demonstrate 1=1.
The fact that you would assign authority and credibility based upon celebrity rather than factuality is, in fact, the fundamental problem of social media.
Thanks for the example in a nutshell.
Thanks for the example in a nutshell.
No, I responded to the way you talk, as if one downvote or one upvote is a deciding factor when it clearly isn't. Yet you seem to put nonzero weight to it when 99% of votes usually stay anonymous.
I will say if you get the Moderna, that second shot is seriously painful. We had a pretty universal pain in the arm followed by chills followed by hot flashes then a day of feeling like you are walking through water. It was two days of crud. If you have a choice get Pfizer instead. The people taking that don't seem to suffer.
I've to counter your anecdata with mine. It's the same with Pfizer.
Second shot can create adverse reactions. I know people who got flue-like symptoms (headache, muscular pain, increased temperature) for a day.
Amongst doctors it is very common. Prior exposure to covid-19 is suspected to be a contributing factor.
Still, it's better than the alternative: not being immunised and a possible patient/transmission vector.
Still, it's better than the alternative: not being immunised and a possible patient/transmission vector.
I've heard mixed reviews from both vaccines. I suspect it's the underlying disease. You either get it or you barely feel it right?
Anecdotal as fuck, but it seems to me it's the same with the vaccines, and if that's the case, if you had a bad reaction to the vaccine, you probably would've had a bad reaction if you had contracted the disease.
Count yourself lucky.
Count yourself lucky.
You mean you suspect it’s like the underlying disease?
Maybe you’ll have a serious and uncomfortable immune response, but since the vaccine can’t proliferate, it will be a relatively brief one at even seventy-two hours.
Maybe you’ll have a serious and uncomfortable immune response, but since the vaccine can’t proliferate, it will be a relatively brief one at even seventy-two hours.
I also know people who reacted exactly backwards. The first shot was terrible and the second shot barely noticeable.
However, as someone who got Covid, I wish I could have had the opportunity to skip 2 weeks of misery and months of recovery in return for 2-3 days of a reaction.
However, as someone who got Covid, I wish I could have had the opportunity to skip 2 weeks of misery and months of recovery in return for 2-3 days of a reaction.
Our hospital here in Trondheim, Norway did mass vaccinate about one-third of their employees in one day (Astra-Zeneca, I believe). In the next couple of days, the number on sick leave was nearly high enough to be a serious problem. They have now learned to stagger their vaccinations a bit more. Nothing dramatic in that, but the side effects are quite real for enough people.
In yet another failure of messaging from public health authorities, individuals such as yourself are surprised by the intense but entirely normal immune response to an antigen your body was just trained to fight.
There is a reasonable question about the necessity of that second dose, however.
There is a reasonable question about the necessity of that second dose, however.
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My wife received her first shot on December 23 (before Dr Fauci got his btw). From there, I've noticed: no extra wifi, no 5G, no extra appendages, and no cthlonic growth (oh r'lyeh now!).
In all seriousness, she said the shots hurt more than the flu shots do - and the second one she felt like the early sign of getting sick but never did (immune response, but goes oh its nothing! cool!). Past that, she's been working with covid positive people in home health settings
The MOMENT that I qualify for a covid vaccine, I'm taking it. I don't care which vaccine it is. When it's available, I'll gladly take. And for me, that's one step closer to coming back to normal lives, vacationing, and having fun in different parts of the world... And the biggest thing - putting the pandemic behind us.
In all seriousness, she said the shots hurt more than the flu shots do - and the second one she felt like the early sign of getting sick but never did (immune response, but goes oh its nothing! cool!). Past that, she's been working with covid positive people in home health settings
The MOMENT that I qualify for a covid vaccine, I'm taking it. I don't care which vaccine it is. When it's available, I'll gladly take. And for me, that's one step closer to coming back to normal lives, vacationing, and having fun in different parts of the world... And the biggest thing - putting the pandemic behind us.
You should take any vaccine because - unless you are young - the risk from vaccination is dwarfed by the risk of being infected by the virus. And make no mistake, you will eventually be exposed.
I live in Hungary and they started using the russian and one chinese vaccine here that haven't been approved anywhere else in the EU.
So No I won't take ANY, especially not a chinese one.
So No I won't take ANY, especially not a chinese one.
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Just want to point out there is decent evidence that the COVID19 vaccine(s) (particularly the mRNA vaccines) have a much higher risk(s) than standard vaccines.
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=...
It's self reported, but given the risk of COVID-19 is extremely low for anyone under 50:
https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/c...
Note: the fatality rate is likely significantly lower, due to many cases going untested. If you're under 50, influenza is a significantly higher fatality rate.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html
Just wanted to point out the evidence related to the vaccines, aka flu vaccine is definitely a good idea (especially if older). COVID19 vaccines, would not recommend unless you are in your 70's.
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=...
It's self reported, but given the risk of COVID-19 is extremely low for anyone under 50:
https://www.heritage.org/data-visualizations/public-health/c...
Note: the fatality rate is likely significantly lower, due to many cases going untested. If you're under 50, influenza is a significantly higher fatality rate.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html
Just wanted to point out the evidence related to the vaccines, aka flu vaccine is definitely a good idea (especially if older). COVID19 vaccines, would not recommend unless you are in your 70's.
There is an evidence that or immune system has either limited memory or bandwidth or both. See immune imprinting. So while taking once a ten year vaccine for not rapidly mutating pathogen makes it more robust, the case of regular intake for highly volatile virus is not so obvious.
There were already warning cases with flu and some other diseases.
There were already warning cases with flu and some other diseases.
I'm young and healthy, with less than 0.4% risks of dying, so I think I'll pass for the time being, and leave my dose to those who want it.
I'm super happy to give it to them, as I want as many people vaccinated to protect me (herd immunity) without being vaccinated myself to avoid the rare risk of side effects that will be known better in a year or two from now.
Yeah, I'm selfish. And no, I don't care about people possibly dying. They should get vaccinated! They should take any vaccine!
Actually, I wish I could resell the dose the government wants to give me to someone from a country that doesn't have enough vaccine, like on ebay.
Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn't work: I tried to do that before during the H1N1 scare with the help of friends and the parcels didn't reach the buyers.
I'm super happy to give it to them, as I want as many people vaccinated to protect me (herd immunity) without being vaccinated myself to avoid the rare risk of side effects that will be known better in a year or two from now.
Yeah, I'm selfish. And no, I don't care about people possibly dying. They should get vaccinated! They should take any vaccine!
Actually, I wish I could resell the dose the government wants to give me to someone from a country that doesn't have enough vaccine, like on ebay.
Unfortunately, in my experience, it doesn't work: I tried to do that before during the H1N1 scare with the help of friends and the parcels didn't reach the buyers.
> I'm young and healthy, with less than 0.4% risks of dying, so I think I'll pass for the time being, and leave my dose to those who want it.
Your argument is based on a superficial interpretation of these 0.4% of "risks". Let's assume you mean Covid, and not paper cuts or meteorite impacts. 0.4% is no promise that you won't die if you get it. Also, death rate is not the only factor that should be taken into account. Covid can seriously mess up your health even if you are young and healthy and survive.
A point that should also convice those that think selfishly: the faster herd immunity is achieved, the sooner this whole story ends. This should reduce the need for further lockdowns and also reduce the risk of some mutation of Covid-19 coming back. The seasonal influenca has been pretty much disrupted by the lockdowns and the sharp reduction in international travelling. Surely nobody misses them. Let's make the most out of it and ensure there is not going to be seasonal Covid in the future.
Your argument is based on a superficial interpretation of these 0.4% of "risks". Let's assume you mean Covid, and not paper cuts or meteorite impacts. 0.4% is no promise that you won't die if you get it. Also, death rate is not the only factor that should be taken into account. Covid can seriously mess up your health even if you are young and healthy and survive.
A point that should also convice those that think selfishly: the faster herd immunity is achieved, the sooner this whole story ends. This should reduce the need for further lockdowns and also reduce the risk of some mutation of Covid-19 coming back. The seasonal influenca has been pretty much disrupted by the lockdowns and the sharp reduction in international travelling. Surely nobody misses them. Let's make the most out of it and ensure there is not going to be seasonal Covid in the future.
Didn't realize we had anti-vaxxers in the Millenial/Gen-Z demographic but I guess idiots know no bounds...
I'm not anti vaxxer: I will be happy to take any vaccine after at least 1 year has elapsed for 10M people having received that vaccine - and I will prefer non mRNA if possible, as it is an old technology therefore very well known, and if possible the vaccine that has been injected on the most people, because it will be the one that is best known.
I know that >10M people have been for 1 month, and I know that at least 10'000 people have received the vaccine about 1 year ago ago in phase 2 tests, but this is 2 separate things, while what I'm asking for is the cumulative thing.
As for why, I decide what is injected in my body and I set my own safety benchmarks.
You may call that idiocy. I call that freedom.
I know that >10M people have been for 1 month, and I know that at least 10'000 people have received the vaccine about 1 year ago ago in phase 2 tests, but this is 2 separate things, while what I'm asking for is the cumulative thing.
As for why, I decide what is injected in my body and I set my own safety benchmarks.
You may call that idiocy. I call that freedom.
> You may call that idiocy. I call that freedom.
No, I call it selfishness. You're free to be a narcissist if you want, of course!
No, I call it selfishness. You're free to be a narcissist if you want, of course!
Just to make sure I understand - you tried to resell the H1N1 vaccine?
Yes, back in 2009, I was a student and I thought "easy money!" :)
It was in very high demand, and I could get some, so I figured, let the great material continuum provide to those who need it and have the money to pay for our efforts!
Unfortunately the customs hassled the customers for paperwork (the health market is so overregulated!) who then hassled me.
I was just in for a quick buck, and the vaccines were legit with all the barcodes and stuff, new in a manufacturer box, still sealed, so I didn't understand why!
Still, I did a few rounds giving the required documentation each time, until I realized the customs agents were just finding excuses to block the parcels, and more likely to keep the content for themselves or their family instead of my clients who had paid for it, or maybe for reselling themselves, as one dose was reselling for over 400 in some markets! So I gave up and issued refunds, even if it was not my fault that the parcel didn't reach the customers.
I should have lied about the content! Little did I know back then, I was young and naive and I thought the laws in the West meant something.
Still, it taught me some good lessons: don't deal with physical goods whenever possible! Don't deal with stuff that's full of regulations!
In a way, it helped define me, as the next schoolyear I got into crypto.
It was in very high demand, and I could get some, so I figured, let the great material continuum provide to those who need it and have the money to pay for our efforts!
Unfortunately the customs hassled the customers for paperwork (the health market is so overregulated!) who then hassled me.
I was just in for a quick buck, and the vaccines were legit with all the barcodes and stuff, new in a manufacturer box, still sealed, so I didn't understand why!
Still, I did a few rounds giving the required documentation each time, until I realized the customs agents were just finding excuses to block the parcels, and more likely to keep the content for themselves or their family instead of my clients who had paid for it, or maybe for reselling themselves, as one dose was reselling for over 400 in some markets! So I gave up and issued refunds, even if it was not my fault that the parcel didn't reach the customers.
I should have lied about the content! Little did I know back then, I was young and naive and I thought the laws in the West meant something.
Still, it taught me some good lessons: don't deal with physical goods whenever possible! Don't deal with stuff that's full of regulations!
In a way, it helped define me, as the next schoolyear I got into crypto.
Uhm well yes, medical products are nearly universally regulated. And often don't make it past customs - it's pretty suspect to try to ship a regulated product without proper documentation.