Ask HN: Am I wasting my time working as a software engineer in Western Europe?
41 comments
Work as a contractor. You can earn more than 100k, or well your LLC can. If you work a lot, you can make 16k a week. If more normal work day 2k-4k a week. You would have to deal with bureaucracy, taxes and administration though. It’s hard but there’s no artificial limit
Source: I’m a contractor and work with other European contractors
Source: I’m a contractor and work with other European contractors
Working as a contractor is not that different. Just find someone to handle your taxes (although I understand that this in itself could be a headache for someone who only has worked as an employee). Also, as a contractor, vacation days are different as well: no work, no pay (whereas as an employee all your vacation days are always paid).
Not really, as €200k salaries are available in Europe (see https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...)
Based on your own description as "pretty average developer", you could maybe try out for local "Big Tech" companies in Europe as entry level (Eng1/L3 in the article) or the level above, and it would already be a pay raise, and wouldn't require you to relocate or be a contractor.
(That's assuming the country in Europe you are in has similar ecosystem to Netherlands.)
Based on your own description as "pretty average developer", you could maybe try out for local "Big Tech" companies in Europe as entry level (Eng1/L3 in the article) or the level above, and it would already be a pay raise, and wouldn't require you to relocate or be a contractor.
(That's assuming the country in Europe you are in has similar ecosystem to Netherlands.)
There certainly are jobs in the US (typically on the coasts) where you can make a lot of money, but the average country wide senior developer salary in the USA is $107k
https://www.indeed.com/career/senior-developer/salaries
Your €75k directly translates into about $90k USD.
Add on top that most US employees get two weeks of vacation (at least initially) and that more than 3 weeks is relatively uncommon. So that equates into an extra $3k $5 a year.
Now add on top that most US employees work at least 40 hours a week not at most with no overtime and if you want a hot coastal job you are likely looking at 60 hours a week. So taking a conservative approach saying that you would be looking at working "only" 1/3 more hours a week and suddenly your €75k is effectively $123k US.
This is now effectively more than the average US senior dev makes when hours worked are factored in.
But you want to make big coastal money. That is likely double the hours on a weekly basis. Here are employees begging to limit work to 80 hours a week
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56452494
So let's take it that it is "only" 60 hours a week. That potentially makes your €75k equate to $180k and is in-line with what a coastal senior dev might make only they have the coastal cost of living to deal with.
If you want to work for a coastal US company as a contractor then you will be competing (from a time shift perspective) with your Eastern European peers that are likely offering their services at half your current rate.
I wish you the best of luck but I think you should not be so negative about your current situation. If you wanted to make more money you could likely hustle a second job and work the same hours as you would working for a coastal FAANG.
https://www.indeed.com/career/senior-developer/salaries
Your €75k directly translates into about $90k USD.
Add on top that most US employees get two weeks of vacation (at least initially) and that more than 3 weeks is relatively uncommon. So that equates into an extra $3k $5 a year.
Now add on top that most US employees work at least 40 hours a week not at most with no overtime and if you want a hot coastal job you are likely looking at 60 hours a week. So taking a conservative approach saying that you would be looking at working "only" 1/3 more hours a week and suddenly your €75k is effectively $123k US.
This is now effectively more than the average US senior dev makes when hours worked are factored in.
But you want to make big coastal money. That is likely double the hours on a weekly basis. Here are employees begging to limit work to 80 hours a week
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56452494
So let's take it that it is "only" 60 hours a week. That potentially makes your €75k equate to $180k and is in-line with what a coastal senior dev might make only they have the coastal cost of living to deal with.
If you want to work for a coastal US company as a contractor then you will be competing (from a time shift perspective) with your Eastern European peers that are likely offering their services at half your current rate.
I wish you the best of luck but I think you should not be so negative about your current situation. If you wanted to make more money you could likely hustle a second job and work the same hours as you would working for a coastal FAANG.
Please don't take this as an accurate map of reality. There are some FAANGs where you have decent odds of ending up on a team that expects more than 40 hours a week - Amazon and Facebook, in particular (though there are plenty of teams in both companies where that's not the case). Google is much more relaxed; I know plenty of people that do 20-30 hours a week there, and nobody that does over 40 (but I hear it's possible).
Also, you can easily break €100k by working for a FAANG branch office in the EU. Senior engineer comp will be €200k+.
Also, you can easily break €100k by working for a FAANG branch office in the EU. Senior engineer comp will be €200k+.
I'm not sure where this trope of people working 80 hours a week at FAANG companies comes from. In Silicon Valley it's well known that people at FAANGs are mostly just chilling compared to people at startups or unicorns while collecting a fairly good salary. Sure, there are teams where people work much harder, but there are also many teams just working on some slow-moving project where everyone clocks in at 10 and leaves at 4. Plus, at all of these companies there is a "terminal level" where you can stop worrying about career growth (eg. L4 for Google, E5 at FB) and no one will stop you.
It isn't necessarily fulfilling and you will never become truly wealthy, but if you just want to make $300-500k/year for 35 hours a week it's possible and quite common.
It isn't necessarily fulfilling and you will never become truly wealthy, but if you just want to make $300-500k/year for 35 hours a week it's possible and quite common.
I landed at a FAANG after about 15 years at startups. It's a hustle and there's pressure to perform, but the work schedule is downright relaxed compared to my startup days. My hours are roughly 8-5:30, which includes time for breakfast, lunch, and a trip to the gym, and I've not worked on a single weekend.
I do miss the energy of a startup, but it'll be hard to go back at this point.
I do miss the energy of a startup, but it'll be hard to go back at this point.
> But you want to make big coastal money. That is likely double the hours on a weekly basis. Here are employees begging to limit work to 80 hours a week
You're confusing FAANG with investment banking. FAANGs for the most part are pretty cozy places with few people working excessive hours. Some even too cozy - Google is full of coasters and rest'n'vesters, practically a retirement home. Speaking from experience of working there.
100% go for a FAANG over taking up a second job, you will not regret.
You're confusing FAANG with investment banking. FAANGs for the most part are pretty cozy places with few people working excessive hours. Some even too cozy - Google is full of coasters and rest'n'vesters, practically a retirement home. Speaking from experience of working there.
100% go for a FAANG over taking up a second job, you will not regret.
That link is about finance, which is a totally different world from tech. Virtually no one, even FANG, is working 80+ hours a week.
I'm no expert but if you worked for a US employer but remained resident in the EU wouldn't you expose yourself to increased tax liabilities? Of course your higher salary might compensate for that but I thought it was worth raising the point.
Really depends. Just because it is an employer from the US, doesn’t mean that they don’t have an entity in Western Europe.
Usually the European entity is a separate company, technically you can still work for the American MS or the Swedish MS for example.
Having said that, taxation is usually based on residency so it is definitely exposes you to tricky tax rules and procedures and complicates things like pension or health insurance.
Having said that, taxation is usually based on residency so it is definitely exposes you to tricky tax rules and procedures and complicates things like pension or health insurance.
You are completely over estimating what american software developers make. I work as one for a public university with good benefits and vacation about a months worth per year and I make almost exactly what you make.
Healthcare, worker rights and retirement.
This, but broadly speaking, the US is a different culture. There are many other small things that could get you, too. There are upsides for sure, but some downsides you might not think about other than those obvious ones.
US taxes are a pain. You absolutely need a car. 4 hour car journey are "short", coming from Europe it's sometimes hard to mentally grasp the size. Metro areas in the US are huge. Commutes in cities where you would get the highest salary can be insane. They have little green space, and what is there and easily accessible will be packed on weekends. Broadband is hit or miss. Worrying about healthcare. The cost of university for kids. Being salaried can mean loads of overtime or uncompensated on-call. Depending on the state, ridiculous non-competes and "everything you do in your spare time is also ours" clauses. Visas and an insane path to permanent residency should you want to stay. Everything is non-metric.
You shouldn't move just for the money. Happiness is a hard thing, and the grass is always greener on the other side.
Edit: Apologies, OP said "work for an American company from Europe" - I think this will be hard, especially trying to demand a US salary without moving, but good luck if you can do it.
US taxes are a pain. You absolutely need a car. 4 hour car journey are "short", coming from Europe it's sometimes hard to mentally grasp the size. Metro areas in the US are huge. Commutes in cities where you would get the highest salary can be insane. They have little green space, and what is there and easily accessible will be packed on weekends. Broadband is hit or miss. Worrying about healthcare. The cost of university for kids. Being salaried can mean loads of overtime or uncompensated on-call. Depending on the state, ridiculous non-competes and "everything you do in your spare time is also ours" clauses. Visas and an insane path to permanent residency should you want to stay. Everything is non-metric.
You shouldn't move just for the money. Happiness is a hard thing, and the grass is always greener on the other side.
Edit: Apologies, OP said "work for an American company from Europe" - I think this will be hard, especially trying to demand a US salary without moving, but good luck if you can do it.
and in a big city, rent + food will cost way more
and if you have kids, you might need to pay for childcare and maybe even their education
and if you have kids, you might need to pay for childcare and maybe even their education
I live in a metro area of the USA, but not one of the 20th largest ones. I started making any kind of real salary (meaning over $2000 a month) in programming in the spring of 2019. I now make base over $130k a year, and bonus/stock will be about $30k this year, so about $160k a year total compensation.
In 2009 I was making $90,000 a year as a systems administrator (was a sysadmin from 1996 until 2009) and was going to school at night, but the recession killed my job and I went back to school more full time then.
I don't have my degree in computer science yet, although I have a few more classes to go. I am not currently enrolled.
There are about 20 programmers in my larger group. I would say there are about 4 programmers here that are clearly better than me. I am pretty easily better than 10 other programmers here. So I am in the 50%-75% range of ability where I work.
A guy I am friendly with who started programming in 2000 and knows my main language and framework told me he is making about $30k less than me and his bonus will be smaller than mine. He knows my main language and framework much more than I do.
I already has a broad array of skills - Ansible is too new for me in terms of devops/SRE which I never went into but I know all the old-line sysadmin things going back to SunOS IPX machines. As well as the command line, MySQL, other toys; can talk about Turing machines somewhat, I forget what the pumping lemma is other than it puts something in the middle of other things or something, or about the sudoers file
Right now I am learning my main language better, learning my framework better, learning core programming things better (like how every language and framework seems to be becoming more functional), learning git better etc.
I am kind of on a leetcode to FAANG (or something similar) train, although I am in no rush. I doubt I will interview anywhere this year if my company situation remains as it is, which is good. At some point I might find that I can't grow any more where I am - or things could go downhill for reasons outside my control - which is why I am improving my skills to be a more attractive candidate where even a FAANG might hire me. So a ~$250k total comp. at a level 3'ish FAANG role is my current goal in the next few years.
In 2009 I was making $90,000 a year as a systems administrator (was a sysadmin from 1996 until 2009) and was going to school at night, but the recession killed my job and I went back to school more full time then.
I don't have my degree in computer science yet, although I have a few more classes to go. I am not currently enrolled.
There are about 20 programmers in my larger group. I would say there are about 4 programmers here that are clearly better than me. I am pretty easily better than 10 other programmers here. So I am in the 50%-75% range of ability where I work.
A guy I am friendly with who started programming in 2000 and knows my main language and framework told me he is making about $30k less than me and his bonus will be smaller than mine. He knows my main language and framework much more than I do.
I already has a broad array of skills - Ansible is too new for me in terms of devops/SRE which I never went into but I know all the old-line sysadmin things going back to SunOS IPX machines. As well as the command line, MySQL, other toys; can talk about Turing machines somewhat, I forget what the pumping lemma is other than it puts something in the middle of other things or something, or about the sudoers file
Right now I am learning my main language better, learning my framework better, learning core programming things better (like how every language and framework seems to be becoming more functional), learning git better etc.
I am kind of on a leetcode to FAANG (or something similar) train, although I am in no rush. I doubt I will interview anywhere this year if my company situation remains as it is, which is good. At some point I might find that I can't grow any more where I am - or things could go downhill for reasons outside my control - which is why I am improving my skills to be a more attractive candidate where even a FAANG might hire me. So a ~$250k total comp. at a level 3'ish FAANG role is my current goal in the next few years.
From my experience recent trend for US companies is that they are looking for devs on certain US states only. I don't know for certain, but it's probably because US remote shift
To give a different spin on your question: you are really asking if should you relocate to a high cost of living environment and geo-arbitrage. SF, NYC, Seattle, Boston. All of them pay high salaries for highly educated labor. They have to. To retain senior talent, you need to be able to give them enough money to afford transportation, lodging, entertainment, etc. Cost of basic necessities is capitalistic and rises when the average salary does. Like all other environments, most people like to save 10-20% per year for retirement and longer term investment. That 10-20% annual savings in a place with a $400K/yr average salary can go a lot farther in a European city where engineers with €65K/yr average salaries do the same strategy. Of course, when you come back 10+ years later, you'll have missed out on a lot of memories with friends. If friends are less important or you don't feel attached to your environment, then maybe the tradeoff is worth it. The FIRE movement arises from an extreme version of this, where people would rather live in a lifestyle city with little industry upon retirement.
Source: I moved from Alabama to Silicon Valley + NYC for a FANG. I loved it. I wasn't attached to Alabama, although I underestimated how much I missed seeing my college friends progress through life. That said, now I'm attached to avoiding winter and don't benefit as much from the geo-arbitrage. I work in system infrastructure, which has significantly better work:life balance options than product or ops.
Source: I moved from Alabama to Silicon Valley + NYC for a FANG. I loved it. I wasn't attached to Alabama, although I underestimated how much I missed seeing my college friends progress through life. That said, now I'm attached to avoiding winter and don't benefit as much from the geo-arbitrage. I work in system infrastructure, which has significantly better work:life balance options than product or ops.
Can you elaborate on system infrastructure and how it differs from ops?
When you write "work for an American company from Europe", I presume you are talking about remote and thus you will be competing globally and there are a lot of average programmers out there who would envy your income and work-life balance.
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You did not factor in that your current situation has much less chance of you being shot or executed for a crime you did not commit.
I can see this will make me very popular, but quite a lot of the employees at an Italian GE acquisition I worked with for a while had this attiutude and refused to travel to the USA.
I can see this will make me very popular, but quite a lot of the employees at an Italian GE acquisition I worked with for a while had this attiutude and refused to travel to the USA.
I’d worry more about street violence, the regular shootings, cost of healthcare. Then yeah criminal justice and civil forfeiture. All these things are of the low probability completely fuck up your life nature (for the privileged who can earn the goods SWE money, worse if you are poor or subject to racism of course)
You can also go contracting, with your skillset you should be able to get 700 euros per day in the vibrant cities (London, Munich, Amsterdam, Switzerland etc.), which translates to 150k Euro (gross) per year.
75k gross per year and a stable outlook should be able to afford a comfortable life with COL and overall benefits in WE. Just curious, what would you want/need the additional money for?
But if you're willing to take on the risk of hidden caveats when working for US employers (i.e. being a slave to financials) go for it I guess?
But if you're willing to take on the risk of hidden caveats when working for US employers (i.e. being a slave to financials) go for it I guess?
Not OP, but I do earn in a similar range.
> Just curious, what would you want/need the additional money for?
In my case, to buy a house without having a mortgage that lasts 20 years.
> Just curious, what would you want/need the additional money for?
In my case, to buy a house without having a mortgage that lasts 20 years.
How long is the average first house mortgage where you are? 20 years is on the low end these days here in New Zealand.
I'm wating my time as a software engineer in the US. I watch my life slowly tick by on the clock while doing frustrating and boring work.
No. Glad I could help.
A few questions you must ask yourself before making the decision to move to US.
1. Do you enjoy your current Work? Do you enjoy your current lifestyle in western Europe?
2. If the answer is Yes; Are you still willing to let go of your current enjoyable lifestyle for a few extra bucks??
The grass may always look greener on the other side; but it may not always be worth it.
1. Do you enjoy your current Work? Do you enjoy your current lifestyle in western Europe?
2. If the answer is Yes; Are you still willing to let go of your current enjoyable lifestyle for a few extra bucks??
The grass may always look greener on the other side; but it may not always be worth it.
I took a pay cut to move to Europe from the US. Grass is greener, tradeoffs etc. You should give it a try if you don't have too many commitments, it will broaden your perspective and you'll definitely make more money.
Be aware that one does not just apply for a job in the US unless you have a green card. Unless they have a EU subsidiary, you’re going to have to set up a company and bill them. Not hard, but not as easy as “taking a job” either
- around 8 years of experience
- pretty average developer (can deal with Ansible, the command line, MySQL, Go, Vue, and tons of other toys; can talk about Turing machines, the pumping lemma, CORS, or about the sudoers file)
- pretty average guy to work with
- earning around 75K Euro (gross) per year as an employee (30 to 40 hours per week). 30 days vacation per year (plus public holiday)
- currently, sort of "tech lead" within my team
I cannot complain about my current lifestyle, but I see that I'm approaching the "glass ceiling" for software engineers in Europe (I don't see myself ever earning more than 100K Euro as a simple software engineer) and I cannot help but think: why on earth I don't quit my job and work for an American company from Europe? I would be doing basically the same but from starters I would be making double (avg. of 150K USD/year according to Google) but more importantly, the "glass ceiling" in USA is above 150K USD.
Even after taxes and health insurance, the net amount each month is way higher with a American salary.
The more I think about it, the more stupid seems my current situation. I think the main thing that's holding me back is that I would probably need to work as a contractor instead of an employee, and this is something I've never done before.