Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves(eater.com)
eater.com
Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves
https://www.eater.com/22315684/vegan-cheese-history-ingredients-process-grocery-brands
491 comments
So my wife and I are vegetarian and I love certain vegan cheese, the naturally cultured ones where you essentially have a plant product that is cultured with cheese bacteria.
My experience with this stuff is similar to a lot of things in vegetarian diet, which is that the problems come about when you start trying to create imitations of animal products.
I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average.
I also don't want to suggest substitutes don't work to a certain extent in certain cases. Impossible burgers, for example, have really pushed a lot of limits in that regard. But I do think that a lot of times trying to imitate just fails miserably.
I tend think of naturally cultured cashew cheese as pretty good. I just think of it as a cultured nut butter, which it is. I still love animal milk cheese, but I wouldn't just expect to substitute cashew butter for chevre, for example, nor would I expect to substitute cashew cheese for either one.
Maybe the article is poorly framed in that regard. I guess I just see it as a fool's errand to try to approach vegan cheeses as imitations. Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
My experience with this stuff is similar to a lot of things in vegetarian diet, which is that the problems come about when you start trying to create imitations of animal products.
I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average.
I also don't want to suggest substitutes don't work to a certain extent in certain cases. Impossible burgers, for example, have really pushed a lot of limits in that regard. But I do think that a lot of times trying to imitate just fails miserably.
I tend think of naturally cultured cashew cheese as pretty good. I just think of it as a cultured nut butter, which it is. I still love animal milk cheese, but I wouldn't just expect to substitute cashew butter for chevre, for example, nor would I expect to substitute cashew cheese for either one.
Maybe the article is poorly framed in that regard. I guess I just see it as a fool's errand to try to approach vegan cheeses as imitations. Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
> I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average.
Naming the product "vegan cheese" isn't doing it any favors in this regard.
A Chinese instructor told me once that tofu was the Chinese equivalent of Western cheese. ("And in as many varieties!") Nutritionally that seems basically correct. But you're not going to sell much tofu as a cheese substitute, or cheese as a tofu substitute.
Naming the product "vegan cheese" isn't doing it any favors in this regard.
A Chinese instructor told me once that tofu was the Chinese equivalent of Western cheese. ("And in as many varieties!") Nutritionally that seems basically correct. But you're not going to sell much tofu as a cheese substitute, or cheese as a tofu substitute.
I suggest looking up the process for making mozzarella at home. Then then process for making tofu at home. Your instructor was accurate on more than a purely nutritional level.
One is protein congealed from milk and one is protein congealed from soybeans. This is pretty much what I meant by "nutritionally equivalent". (Though cheese contains a lot more fat than tofu does.)
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Is there a tofu equivalent of something like parmesan or brie? I can see how tofu relates to mozzarella or ricotta and I've reached that conclusion myself before, but there is a wide variety of cheeses.
Apparently vegan-cheese varieties of those exist, but I'm curious if anyone took tofu there.
Apparently vegan-cheese varieties of those exist, but I'm curious if anyone took tofu there.
The instructor claimed that there are a wide variety of textures and flavors of tofu, including soft and hard kinds. I cannot personally attest to this.
Indeed there are a variety. Most supermarket chains these days have a couple different types of tofu to choose from.
There are several varieties of stinky tofu[0] that feature both a hard rind and soft center like brie.
Some varieties of 豆腐乳 (Wikipedia translates this as fermented bean curd[1]) have strong flavor and creamy texture like blue cheese.
I'm not sure there's anything quite as hard as parmesan (I assume you mean Parmigiano-Reggiano), but there are several smoked tofu varieties that taste similar to smoked gouda.
Sadly in the west most shops only sell silky tofu and firm tofu, which are perhaps the most culinarily flexible, but they are far from the most texturally interesting or flavorful varieties.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinky_tofu
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_bean_curd
Some varieties of 豆腐乳 (Wikipedia translates this as fermented bean curd[1]) have strong flavor and creamy texture like blue cheese.
I'm not sure there's anything quite as hard as parmesan (I assume you mean Parmigiano-Reggiano), but there are several smoked tofu varieties that taste similar to smoked gouda.
Sadly in the west most shops only sell silky tofu and firm tofu, which are perhaps the most culinarily flexible, but they are far from the most texturally interesting or flavorful varieties.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinky_tofu
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_bean_curd
Yes Parmigiano-Reggiano. Parmesan is just the generic name for places where we care about DOP qualifications I guess.
I do have a jar of red Chinese fermented bean curd in my fridge, but have only mixed it into sauces per recipes. I should probably try it by itself.
Smoked tofu sounds really interesting.
Indonesians have tempeh which is a bit like haloumi I guess when pan fried, so that's another one.
I do have a jar of red Chinese fermented bean curd in my fridge, but have only mixed it into sauces per recipes. I should probably try it by itself.
Smoked tofu sounds really interesting.
Indonesians have tempeh which is a bit like haloumi I guess when pan fried, so that's another one.
Yeah, furu is shockingly close to cheese in flavor. It's very pungent and salty, so you can't just just chop off a huge slice and eat it like you would cheese, but you could probably blend it with creamier tofu/soy milk to make something similar to normal cheese.
> It's very pungent and salty, so you can't just just chop off a huge slice and eat it like you would cheese
You can do this with feta, which is soaked in brine. How salty is furu?
You can do this with feta, which is soaked in brine. How salty is furu?
I tend to agree with this. I'm not a vegetarian, but if I were, I'd wouldn't eat imitation animal products anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.
I'm happy to eat vegetarian food. It stands on its own as delicious. One of the best "burgers" I've ever had was made with black beans and wasn't trying to imitate meat. (It was at The Vortex in Atlanta years ago.)
Imitation products that I've tried have always just left me wanting the real thing. Soy can be delicious prepared as soy and not trying to make it pretend to be meat. Tofurky. Yuck.
I'm happy to eat vegetarian food. It stands on its own as delicious. One of the best "burgers" I've ever had was made with black beans and wasn't trying to imitate meat. (It was at The Vortex in Atlanta years ago.)
Imitation products that I've tried have always just left me wanting the real thing. Soy can be delicious prepared as soy and not trying to make it pretend to be meat. Tofurky. Yuck.
I hear this sort of thing a lot but don't quite understand it.
I've been a vegetarian for eight years, but I eat meat substitute products. I have ethical issues with eating meat and I feel considerably better physically when I don't eat meat, but that doesn't mean that meat doesn't taste good.
I'm quite happy to be able to pop some Quorn mycoprotein into a casserole and eat comfort foods of my childhood without having to kill an animal to do it.
(I have to agree about Tofurky though. I'll generally go hungry voluntarily if that's the vegetarian option.)
I've been a vegetarian for eight years, but I eat meat substitute products. I have ethical issues with eating meat and I feel considerably better physically when I don't eat meat, but that doesn't mean that meat doesn't taste good.
I'm quite happy to be able to pop some Quorn mycoprotein into a casserole and eat comfort foods of my childhood without having to kill an animal to do it.
(I have to agree about Tofurky though. I'll generally go hungry voluntarily if that's the vegetarian option.)
It comes down to personal preference. I'm with the GP comment for the exact reasons: I don't like vegan/vegetarian products that imitate animal products because they never actually hit the mark.
This attitude isn't limited to animal products either, almost every ersatz product is worse than what it is trying to imitate. People generally don't like chicory & roasted rye in place of coffee, or teas made from roasted barley & catnip. Some people do, but it's not the norm.
However, if you make a product which is intended to stand on its own, rather than imitate something else, then you can often create something pretty good. Think Nutella, which was designed to stretch cocoa, not replace it.
This attitude isn't limited to animal products either, almost every ersatz product is worse than what it is trying to imitate. People generally don't like chicory & roasted rye in place of coffee, or teas made from roasted barley & catnip. Some people do, but it's not the norm.
However, if you make a product which is intended to stand on its own, rather than imitate something else, then you can often create something pretty good. Think Nutella, which was designed to stretch cocoa, not replace it.
As someone who had been a vegetarian since birth, I almost never like foods that attempt to imitate meat simply because they don't usually taste better good. I'm not trying to replace something I used to eat, and I'm also not disgusted by meat so if like to think this is an unbiased opinion...
For me most imitation meats just don't hit the same notes. One of the mainstays of my childhood was a lamb and leek stew called cawl. I've tried different meat substitutes but none get the right flavour there. Ironically, the closest I've gotten is to skip meat replacements and just put some butter in, it produces the same creamy, fatty taste lamb meat does.
I think lamb is also one that is particularly hard to substitute, IMO.
I feel like you can get a good portion of the texture of beef with some good seitan, for instance. Otherwise, most of them are only really approximate substitutes, in the sense that they substitute what you would use meat for in the meal, not that they substitute directly for a given meat.
I feel like you can get a good portion of the texture of beef with some good seitan, for instance. Otherwise, most of them are only really approximate substitutes, in the sense that they substitute what you would use meat for in the meal, not that they substitute directly for a given meat.
I’ll chime in as a long time vegetarian and former meat eater. The more realistic an imitation meat product is, the more it creeps me out. I lost the taste for meat, and I’m no longer used to the texture, and I find it disgusting.
Imagine my disappointment when all the restaurants in my area replaced their excellent vegetable burgers with things like Beyond and Impossible. To each their own, but it’s not just a rational issue of “is this an animal”, but also a subjective question of taste.
Imagine my disappointment when all the restaurants in my area replaced their excellent vegetable burgers with things like Beyond and Impossible. To each their own, but it’s not just a rational issue of “is this an animal”, but also a subjective question of taste.
I’d bet that anyone decrying imitation meat - or, at least, anyone who generally likes real meat decrying imitation meat - hasn’t had good imitation meat.
If you’ve never tried an Impossible burger, it’s an order of magnitude better than anything that came before. It’s a good burger. It does taste and feel like meat. It doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not.
Quorn I’d also put in the “doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not” category. It’s been around for a long time, but has been curiously unsuccessful in the US. Amazon Fresh sells it. The ground variety makes a good chili. The nuggets are a reasonable facsimile of white meat chicken nuggets.
Quorn’s no Impossible burger though. What Impossible has accomplished really is astounding.
If you’ve never tried an Impossible burger, it’s an order of magnitude better than anything that came before. It’s a good burger. It does taste and feel like meat. It doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not.
Quorn I’d also put in the “doesn’t taste like something that’s trying to be something it’s not” category. It’s been around for a long time, but has been curiously unsuccessful in the US. Amazon Fresh sells it. The ground variety makes a good chili. The nuggets are a reasonable facsimile of white meat chicken nuggets.
Quorn’s no Impossible burger though. What Impossible has accomplished really is astounding.
As someone who has drank 3,000+ different commercial beers, and has brewed a few hundred gallons of homebrew (alcoholic) beer, I'd highly recommend giving athletic brewing companies non-alcoholic beers a shot.
This beer is better than the median alcoholic coffee porter. https://athleticbrewing.com/products/first-ride-coffee-porte...
Their IPAs aren't as good as say, Founder's All Day IPA, but they aren't substantially worse, and they have 1/10th the alcohol.
If you want to drink something for 100 calories, these compare favorably in taste to just about everything, IMO.
This beer is better than the median alcoholic coffee porter. https://athleticbrewing.com/products/first-ride-coffee-porte...
Their IPAs aren't as good as say, Founder's All Day IPA, but they aren't substantially worse, and they have 1/10th the alcohol.
If you want to drink something for 100 calories, these compare favorably in taste to just about everything, IMO.
Seconded. Just finished one less than half an hour ago, in fact, because I'm abstaining for a bit after my second Pfizer shot (apparently alcohol is not ideal for the process). Sometimes low-calorie and/or no-alcohol are desirable traits. When I can I'll still go for a Southern Tier or Allagash product, but Athletic makes some thoroughly decent drinkable beers for a different set of occasions.
Members of my family are dry and drink NA beer. I buy it to have it around for them, but honestly it's great for having a beer with lunch, or wanting to drink something that isn't sugar. Even going over to a friends place while I'm planning on driving, go every other beer real vs NA.
> anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.
Non-alcoholic beer seems more popular in Germany (yes, Germany, where beer is very serious business) than in the US.
I like it a lot, because it's a refreshing drink with good taste and no alcohol, well suitable if you want to drive or just don't feel like drinking alcohol right now.
I wish it was more common in the US (where I live now).
Non-alcoholic beer seems more popular in Germany (yes, Germany, where beer is very serious business) than in the US.
I like it a lot, because it's a refreshing drink with good taste and no alcohol, well suitable if you want to drive or just don't feel like drinking alcohol right now.
I wish it was more common in the US (where I live now).
It was very common in Miami, and I can find it usually in normal grocery stores in NYC.
Goya Malta and O'Doul's are the brands I'm most familiar with.
Goya Malta and O'Doul's are the brands I'm most familiar with.
We drink a lot of non alcoholic beer. I want something more exiting than water even on work day lunches and I don’t like sweet drinks and I’m trying to reduce my caffeine intake. Not that much left to choose from then.
"Not that much left to choose from then."
If you are happy with non alcoholic beer, stay with that, but have you heard of - Tea?
There are lots and lots of different tea's around, as you can make tea out of allmost anything. So plenty of caffeine-free choices there.
If you are happy with non alcoholic beer, stay with that, but have you heard of - Tea?
There are lots and lots of different tea's around, as you can make tea out of allmost anything. So plenty of caffeine-free choices there.
I agree completely but one exception for me is using Boca burger as a sub for ground beef. If I chop them up, season them and then use the result in chili or something it really does give it, to me anyway, the "taste" and "texture" of ground beef.
I know I'm tasting the seasoning I used and the infusion of other flavors from the chili more than the taste of the soy burger but my stomach doesn't care, to me it's just as satisfying as chili (or stew, etc.) made with beef.
I know I'm tasting the seasoning I used and the infusion of other flavors from the chili more than the taste of the soy burger but my stomach doesn't care, to me it's just as satisfying as chili (or stew, etc.) made with beef.
Here's an easy vegetarian chili recipe we've been using for years in my house:
https://pastebin.com/84cwiJ02
https://pastebin.com/84cwiJ02
Thank you! I'll have to try this. weird that it uses a less chili powder than I usually use in my meat chili (roughly 3 tbs for 2lbs of meat and a can of beans). Maybe I'm just used to a ton more spice. I could have been amping it up after going away from red meat
That could be because the chili molecule has polarity and clumps together in fatty environments, like meat sauces and yoghurt. Conversely it gets dispersed by water. That recipe probably has a bit less fat than what your usual meaty one has, so less chili goes further :)
It's actually the other way around: capsaicin is non-polar, that's why it is hydrophobic but soluble in oil and fat.
Have you tried impossible meat? It’s so satisfying and mimics meat better than anything I’ve tried out there.
Well if anyplace is going to have a decent vegi-burger it will have to be The Vortex.
I love that place. From the decor, to their f* you set of rules, to their food.
Great place. Makes me miss ATl :(
I love that place. From the decor, to their f* you set of rules, to their food.
Great place. Makes me miss ATl :(
> I wouldn't eat imitation animal products anymore than I'd drink non-alcoholic beer.
And nor shall I drink anything with corn syrup as that's simply an imitation sugar product, nor do I eat chipotle burritos since they're a pale imitation of actual burritos. I eschew Cavendish bananas entirely since, just like a boca-burger tries to mimic a real burger, the Cavendish banana tries to mimic the real banana. You can taste the difference.
My point here is that "imitation" is very poorly defined. Is a boca burger an imitation? Is a black bean burger? What if the black bean burger uses spices similar to what you use on meat patties?
I think that taking inspiration from another food and trying to mimic it (as chipotle does with real burritos) is a valid way to make a new food, and that food should be judged on its own merits. I don't like "imitation meats" that are just pure saitan for the most part, but I'm fine with other imitation meats. It's not the imitation bit that matters, it's the quality of the thing itself, taken standalone.
And nor shall I drink anything with corn syrup as that's simply an imitation sugar product, nor do I eat chipotle burritos since they're a pale imitation of actual burritos. I eschew Cavendish bananas entirely since, just like a boca-burger tries to mimic a real burger, the Cavendish banana tries to mimic the real banana. You can taste the difference.
My point here is that "imitation" is very poorly defined. Is a boca burger an imitation? Is a black bean burger? What if the black bean burger uses spices similar to what you use on meat patties?
I think that taking inspiration from another food and trying to mimic it (as chipotle does with real burritos) is a valid way to make a new food, and that food should be judged on its own merits. I don't like "imitation meats" that are just pure saitan for the most part, but I'm fine with other imitation meats. It's not the imitation bit that matters, it's the quality of the thing itself, taken standalone.
> I eschew Cavendish bananas entirely since, just like a boca-burger tries to mimic a real burger, the Cavendish banana tries to mimic the real banana.
That's a strange analogy. Cavendish bananas are a type of "real" banana already. They're not "trying to mimic" anything, and are not at all like Boca burgers in that regard.
That's a strange analogy. Cavendish bananas are a type of "real" banana already. They're not "trying to mimic" anything, and are not at all like Boca burgers in that regard.
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> stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses
Why do we even begin with naming vegan food products after the items they are meant to represent?
"Cheese" is made from milk. "Vegan cheese" as a label is specifically targeted at being "like milk cheese" and thus intends to replicate it.
If you want
> Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
we should entirely dispense with imitating, and create an entirely new food category whose principle is "vegan" and not "like real food minus animal". Invent new stuff. Ferment things from plants but do not reuse any labels that are derived from animals.
If you do not do this, people will still bring this up, because their expectations are intentionally shaped by how something is called.
Don't call vegan cheese as "cheese" if you want it to shape its own path as a new sort of food product.
edit: same with "cakes" which require butter and eggs in their traditional forms. Make something new but perhaps do not call it a cake? Make a new word that sounds catchy (we do all the time, and incorporate these into our language, e.g., Kleenex, google, "cloud" for servers, ...).
Why do we even begin with naming vegan food products after the items they are meant to represent?
"Cheese" is made from milk. "Vegan cheese" as a label is specifically targeted at being "like milk cheese" and thus intends to replicate it.
If you want
> Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
we should entirely dispense with imitating, and create an entirely new food category whose principle is "vegan" and not "like real food minus animal". Invent new stuff. Ferment things from plants but do not reuse any labels that are derived from animals.
If you do not do this, people will still bring this up, because their expectations are intentionally shaped by how something is called.
Don't call vegan cheese as "cheese" if you want it to shape its own path as a new sort of food product.
edit: same with "cakes" which require butter and eggs in their traditional forms. Make something new but perhaps do not call it a cake? Make a new word that sounds catchy (we do all the time, and incorporate these into our language, e.g., Kleenex, google, "cloud" for servers, ...).
I don't mind people calling something "vegan cheese" or "vegan milk" or "milk alternative" etc. But I do mind people calling it "cheese" or "milk" intentionally when it's a vegan alternative, revelling in the confusion, just to give the impression that they're interchangeable and it's really no big deal if you get the vegan version instead.
Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?
Like, wtf is almond milk? When I was a kid, almond milk was super tasty, and it was basically normal milk mixed in with sweet almond sherbet. What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk? If you asked me for almond milk and I gave you actual "almond milk" (i.e. the dairy kind) and it turned out you were vegan, you'd be pissed off, right?
> and I gave you actual "almond milk"
What makes that the actual version? Almond milk as an animal milk substitute made from almonds dates back to the 1300s[0]. It's not new.
I hear where you're coming from, but I also question what does and doesn't count as an "authentic" name, and I suspect a lot of it comes down to people thinking that the names they used growing up or the names they ran into first are the "real" ones and everything else is a new fad.
When people are arguing about confusion I'm a little bit sympathetic (although I'm doubtful consumer confusion is actually the serious problem they make it out to be). But when people start to argue about needing to use proper words, I usually check out, because usually they have a very narrow view of what word origins count as proper. They're rarely tracing the etymology of the word, they're usually just saying that everyone should adopt the same definitions that their specific parents used.
So let me flip your question around on you: almond sherbet already traditionally contains milk. What would be wrong with calling almond sherbet... almond sherbet, or an almond milkshake if the balance of milk is increased. That would be helpful anyway, because you could make vegan almond sherbet using a vegan milk as a base, and then what are you going to call it under your system?
My take on this is that vegan cheese/milk is substitutable in nearly every single recipe I make. Many people dislike the taste of vegan cheese, which I understand and think is completely valid, but many people also dislike the taste of brie and I don't see a general campaign to classify brie as a non-cheese. So part of why I call those products vegan milk/cheese instead of "cheeze" is because I think if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and if I can use it in all of my duck recipes often without any additional thought or research, then for all practical purposes it's a duck.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk
What makes that the actual version? Almond milk as an animal milk substitute made from almonds dates back to the 1300s[0]. It's not new.
I hear where you're coming from, but I also question what does and doesn't count as an "authentic" name, and I suspect a lot of it comes down to people thinking that the names they used growing up or the names they ran into first are the "real" ones and everything else is a new fad.
When people are arguing about confusion I'm a little bit sympathetic (although I'm doubtful consumer confusion is actually the serious problem they make it out to be). But when people start to argue about needing to use proper words, I usually check out, because usually they have a very narrow view of what word origins count as proper. They're rarely tracing the etymology of the word, they're usually just saying that everyone should adopt the same definitions that their specific parents used.
So let me flip your question around on you: almond sherbet already traditionally contains milk. What would be wrong with calling almond sherbet... almond sherbet, or an almond milkshake if the balance of milk is increased. That would be helpful anyway, because you could make vegan almond sherbet using a vegan milk as a base, and then what are you going to call it under your system?
My take on this is that vegan cheese/milk is substitutable in nearly every single recipe I make. Many people dislike the taste of vegan cheese, which I understand and think is completely valid, but many people also dislike the taste of brie and I don't see a general campaign to classify brie as a non-cheese. So part of why I call those products vegan milk/cheese instead of "cheeze" is because I think if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and if I can use it in all of my duck recipes often without any additional thought or research, then for all practical purposes it's a duck.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond_milk
Almond sherbet is the sherbet itself, not the milk drink, but I take the point. And I guess almond milk wasn't the best example to focus on, but I was referring more generally to the trend of intentional misnaming that I have observed.
So, e.g., given your 'quacks like a duck' theory, I could happily cook a "mushroom risotto" with mushroomy chicken instead of actual mushroom, and that would still be a perfectly fine mushroom risotto, right? Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass, and all linguistic subtleties of what constitutes 'mushroominess' in chicken would probably fly out the window.
Note I'm not arguing about what ingredients are substitutable for others and thus comparable. I'm arguing about naming, and specifically about naming intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing. So while I partly agree with the 'quacks like a duck' thing, I think a big part of why it's fine to have non-dairy 'cheese', but not fine to have chicken-based 'mushrooms' comes down to which direction of duck-quacking feels more 'defendable' than what constitutes acceptable substitutes in terms of flavour.
So, e.g., given your 'quacks like a duck' theory, I could happily cook a "mushroom risotto" with mushroomy chicken instead of actual mushroom, and that would still be a perfectly fine mushroom risotto, right? Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass, and all linguistic subtleties of what constitutes 'mushroominess' in chicken would probably fly out the window.
Note I'm not arguing about what ingredients are substitutable for others and thus comparable. I'm arguing about naming, and specifically about naming intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing. So while I partly agree with the 'quacks like a duck' thing, I think a big part of why it's fine to have non-dairy 'cheese', but not fine to have chicken-based 'mushrooms' comes down to which direction of duck-quacking feels more 'defendable' than what constitutes acceptable substitutes in terms of flavour.
Cheese and milk products made from allergens (cashews and other nuts) are pretty careful with their labeling, because people die from nut allergies every day. Your hidden-chicken risotto would make me very ill for a day or two. I always ask before ordering risotto, just in case the restaurant is being careless.
How is it intentional misnaming to use a term like "Almond Milk", which has been used in English back to the origin of the language? Care to look up how long "rice milk" in Japanese has contained the Japanese word for milk? ミルク and ライスミルク.
How is it intentional misnaming to use a term like "Almond Milk", which has been used in English back to the origin of the language? Care to look up how long "rice milk" in Japanese has contained the Japanese word for milk? ミルク and ライスミルク.
Honestly? Yes, if you made a mushroom risotto with chicken, and it was genuinely designed to imitate a mushroom risotto, then that's what I would call it: a mushroom risotto with chicken. What would you call it? Would you come up with an entirely new name?
> Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass
To be clear, the jerk part here would be serving non-vegan food to a vegan, not the name. If you made a mushroom risotto and slathered butter over it, it would be just as much of a jerk move. This is actually something that comes up a lot with vegan food, it's why we need to read labels. There are multiple artificial meats that are made with milk and eggs and are vegetarian friendly but not vegan friendly. It's rarely safe to assume something is vegan just because vegetables are the primary ingredient or because it's "plant-based".
If you want to think of it from another perspective, I would say the same thing is true of allergens. If you made a mushroom risotto and incorporated a peanut sauce or glaze, I don't have an issue with you calling it a mushroom risotto, I don't think anything fundamental has changed about the food. But it would definitely be a jerk move (and potentially negligent homicide) to feed it to someone you knew had a peanut allergy, and you would need to make sure that if you sold it in a store that it showed peanuts prominently in the ingredients.
> intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing
I don't particularly care about marketing purposes, I don't think the term "almond milk" is any more deceptive than the term "turkey pepperoni" or "black bean brownies". And I do not believe that when the meat industry lobbies to get stuff renamed to "almond juice", they're doing it out of concern for confusion, they just want to create certain connotations in the exact same way that vegan companies want to do.
But if you wanted legislation that required food to clearly indicate whether or not it contained animal products, it would make my life a great deal easier, I would be able to stop reading individual ingredients to find out whether or not a loaf of bread was vegan.
Right now you can indicate whether a food is vegan/vegetarian, and many products that are marketing to vegans do, especially imitation meats and plant based cheese/milk/butter which I've found to be pretty prominent. But there's no requirement to do so, and many animal products (esp less 'palatable' ingredients like shellac) are allowed to be listed in ingredient lists with no other information at all. I often have to not just read ingredients but look up new terms that I'm unfamiliar with on my phone. Some ingredients don't even have a clear answer, they might be derived from animals or they might not be, and there's no obligation for food manufacturers to indicate which version they're using.
An easy way to solve this problem would be for labeling purposes to treat animal by-products and meat more like an allergen, require a line after the ingredients stating "contains ingredients derived from animals".
> Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass
To be clear, the jerk part here would be serving non-vegan food to a vegan, not the name. If you made a mushroom risotto and slathered butter over it, it would be just as much of a jerk move. This is actually something that comes up a lot with vegan food, it's why we need to read labels. There are multiple artificial meats that are made with milk and eggs and are vegetarian friendly but not vegan friendly. It's rarely safe to assume something is vegan just because vegetables are the primary ingredient or because it's "plant-based".
If you want to think of it from another perspective, I would say the same thing is true of allergens. If you made a mushroom risotto and incorporated a peanut sauce or glaze, I don't have an issue with you calling it a mushroom risotto, I don't think anything fundamental has changed about the food. But it would definitely be a jerk move (and potentially negligent homicide) to feed it to someone you knew had a peanut allergy, and you would need to make sure that if you sold it in a store that it showed peanuts prominently in the ingredients.
> intended to produce confusion and blur the definitions for the purpose of marketing
I don't particularly care about marketing purposes, I don't think the term "almond milk" is any more deceptive than the term "turkey pepperoni" or "black bean brownies". And I do not believe that when the meat industry lobbies to get stuff renamed to "almond juice", they're doing it out of concern for confusion, they just want to create certain connotations in the exact same way that vegan companies want to do.
But if you wanted legislation that required food to clearly indicate whether or not it contained animal products, it would make my life a great deal easier, I would be able to stop reading individual ingredients to find out whether or not a loaf of bread was vegan.
Right now you can indicate whether a food is vegan/vegetarian, and many products that are marketing to vegans do, especially imitation meats and plant based cheese/milk/butter which I've found to be pretty prominent. But there's no requirement to do so, and many animal products (esp less 'palatable' ingredients like shellac) are allowed to be listed in ingredient lists with no other information at all. I often have to not just read ingredients but look up new terms that I'm unfamiliar with on my phone. Some ingredients don't even have a clear answer, they might be derived from animals or they might not be, and there's no obligation for food manufacturers to indicate which version they're using.
An easy way to solve this problem would be for labeling purposes to treat animal by-products and meat more like an allergen, require a line after the ingredients stating "contains ingredients derived from animals".
Yes that's what I meant by 'defendable direction'. Feeding 'actual' fried chicken to a person expecting "vegan fried chicken" is a dick move, because they're vegan. But the reverse would probably just be seen as a 'harmless "educational" joke', even though it's still equally dickish. But this perceived defensibility imbalance is partly what creates this confusion-inducing cavalier appropriation of food names.
I don't agree with 'turkey pepperoni' and 'blackbean brownies' as being comparable to 'fried chicken (vegan)' or 'ham and cheese toastie (vegan)' (though, ok, they were just examples, perhaps unfortunate, like my almond milk one). The difference is these are primarily recipes, not base ingredients. Obviously, the distinction is not always clear (is cheese an ingredient or a recipe? Is bread? But I would argue in most people's head these are ingredients, not a family of recipes). It's one thing to talk about recipe variants (vegan or otherwise), it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.
I sympathise with the ingredients listing thing though. I'm effectively vegan-eating slightly more than half days of the year, and not having to carefully read through ingredients just to spot the errant 'whey powder' at the end would be very welcome.
I don't agree with 'turkey pepperoni' and 'blackbean brownies' as being comparable to 'fried chicken (vegan)' or 'ham and cheese toastie (vegan)' (though, ok, they were just examples, perhaps unfortunate, like my almond milk one). The difference is these are primarily recipes, not base ingredients. Obviously, the distinction is not always clear (is cheese an ingredient or a recipe? Is bread? But I would argue in most people's head these are ingredients, not a family of recipes). It's one thing to talk about recipe variants (vegan or otherwise), it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.
I sympathise with the ingredients listing thing though. I'm effectively vegan-eating slightly more than half days of the year, and not having to carefully read through ingredients just to spot the errant 'whey powder' at the end would be very welcome.
> a 'harmless "educational" joke',
Feeding someone food that they don't want to eat is a jerk move regardless of what direction you're going.
I do think part of the reason why people take the vegan direction more seriously is that many vegans have strong preferences against eating those foods, and most non-vegans don't. To pull it out of the vegan world and offer a different perspective, this is the same reason why it's more of a jerk move to sneak a Muslim pork than it is to sneak them a black bean brownie. But of course, if you know someone has even a mild preference against eating any food, sneaking them that food is a jerk move. Don't do that, not even for minor preferences.
My only disagreement on this front is that I don't see how respecting those people requires forcing general food names to have one-to-one correlations to a specific ingredients list. And I say that as a vegan who does not get offended if a restaurant puts butter on their green beans and still calls them green beans, or if someone calls cricket flour "flour" even though it's not made from grain. I'm not trying to reclaim the word "salad" or anything. All I want is for the restaurant to be able to tell me if something is vegan or not if I ask, or to label it one way or another. And that labeling can be useful for non-vegans as well.
> It's one thing to talk about recipe variants [...], it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.
I'm not sure. I somewhat get what you're saying, but I think there are two reasons I'm skeptical about this argument:
First, if you have a preference/allergy regarding products like soy and corn, buying meat-based products already isn't safe. The meat industry has been using soy and other ingredients for filler, flavoring, and preservatives for years and their labeling on that front is not particularly great. A good 5-10% of taco bell meat you buy will be additives like thickeners. So the "meat" word isn't protecting people who really want to avoid common vegan ingredients or processed foods. That's a problem that can only be solved with labeling.
Secondly, I'm skeptical because over the years the actual legal arguments being made in this debate have taken on an element of absurdity to me, even when dealing with non-recipe foods. As a specific example, the US FDA currently defines "milk" as coming purely from a cow. But that's just ridiculous, nobody would argue that goat milk or breast milk isn't real milk. Nobody would argue that consumer confusion is a good reason to call goat milk something like "lactation" or "juice" instead. And seeing what the industry actually lobbies for, I just don't believe confusion is what the industry cares about. It makes me wonder what's going to happen when lab-meat becomes a thing, and whether the meat industry is still going to have the exact same debates about a food product that is chemically identical to what they're selling.
I think sometimes the distinctions between two foods are small enough that they should share the same name even though the distinctions might matter to some (even many) people. The difference between 2% and whole milk matters nutritionally and labeling should reflect that, but they're both still milk. The difference between breast milk and bovine milk definitely matters, and you'd better not give me brownies made with breast milk or I am never visiting your house again and I am telling all the neighbors to avoid you. But they're both still milk. The difference between brie and cheddar cheese is huge, involving both taste and texture -- but they're both still cheese. So we're in a situation where vegan milk/eggs/cheese and animal milk/eggs/cheese are used almost exactly the same way in most recipes, they look the same, they accomplish the same goals in most meals, and while they're distinguishable when eaten, the taste difference between vegan cheddar and regular cheddar is not (imo) as large as the difference between cheddar and, say, cottage cheese. The differences do matter, particularly nutritionally, and they should be clearly labeled, but do they matter so much that they need completely separate words? I would argue that putting them in the same category of food is the least confusing way to talk about them, and nutritional/ingredient labeling is a separate concern from etymology.
Feeding someone food that they don't want to eat is a jerk move regardless of what direction you're going.
I do think part of the reason why people take the vegan direction more seriously is that many vegans have strong preferences against eating those foods, and most non-vegans don't. To pull it out of the vegan world and offer a different perspective, this is the same reason why it's more of a jerk move to sneak a Muslim pork than it is to sneak them a black bean brownie. But of course, if you know someone has even a mild preference against eating any food, sneaking them that food is a jerk move. Don't do that, not even for minor preferences.
My only disagreement on this front is that I don't see how respecting those people requires forcing general food names to have one-to-one correlations to a specific ingredients list. And I say that as a vegan who does not get offended if a restaurant puts butter on their green beans and still calls them green beans, or if someone calls cricket flour "flour" even though it's not made from grain. I'm not trying to reclaim the word "salad" or anything. All I want is for the restaurant to be able to tell me if something is vegan or not if I ask, or to label it one way or another. And that labeling can be useful for non-vegans as well.
> It's one thing to talk about recipe variants [...], it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.
I'm not sure. I somewhat get what you're saying, but I think there are two reasons I'm skeptical about this argument:
First, if you have a preference/allergy regarding products like soy and corn, buying meat-based products already isn't safe. The meat industry has been using soy and other ingredients for filler, flavoring, and preservatives for years and their labeling on that front is not particularly great. A good 5-10% of taco bell meat you buy will be additives like thickeners. So the "meat" word isn't protecting people who really want to avoid common vegan ingredients or processed foods. That's a problem that can only be solved with labeling.
Secondly, I'm skeptical because over the years the actual legal arguments being made in this debate have taken on an element of absurdity to me, even when dealing with non-recipe foods. As a specific example, the US FDA currently defines "milk" as coming purely from a cow. But that's just ridiculous, nobody would argue that goat milk or breast milk isn't real milk. Nobody would argue that consumer confusion is a good reason to call goat milk something like "lactation" or "juice" instead. And seeing what the industry actually lobbies for, I just don't believe confusion is what the industry cares about. It makes me wonder what's going to happen when lab-meat becomes a thing, and whether the meat industry is still going to have the exact same debates about a food product that is chemically identical to what they're selling.
I think sometimes the distinctions between two foods are small enough that they should share the same name even though the distinctions might matter to some (even many) people. The difference between 2% and whole milk matters nutritionally and labeling should reflect that, but they're both still milk. The difference between breast milk and bovine milk definitely matters, and you'd better not give me brownies made with breast milk or I am never visiting your house again and I am telling all the neighbors to avoid you. But they're both still milk. The difference between brie and cheddar cheese is huge, involving both taste and texture -- but they're both still cheese. So we're in a situation where vegan milk/eggs/cheese and animal milk/eggs/cheese are used almost exactly the same way in most recipes, they look the same, they accomplish the same goals in most meals, and while they're distinguishable when eaten, the taste difference between vegan cheddar and regular cheddar is not (imo) as large as the difference between cheddar and, say, cottage cheese. The differences do matter, particularly nutritionally, and they should be clearly labeled, but do they matter so much that they need completely separate words? I would argue that putting them in the same category of food is the least confusing way to talk about them, and nutritional/ingredient labeling is a separate concern from etymology.
> What makes that the actual version?
That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.
That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.
So if I'm Catholic, it's OK for me to drink almond-flavored dairy-milk during Lent? Win!
From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.
From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.
Not sure about that, but I do know that if you want to eat capybara on Fridays as your fish dish you should be fine.
Do you have a problem with the name "peanut butter"? It isn't butter with peanuts in it. Or mincemeat pie, which isn't made out of minced meat?
Proper mincemeat pies contain suet and have a very different taste from the vegetarian ones. So yes, in that case it is a problematic name that conflates two usefully distinct things.
I'm curious, do you have a link or image of what that "almond milk" you used to have was?
Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.
Obviously searching for the various possible terms gives results mostly from recent times, about the vegan almond milk.
Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1]. Whereas if you say "almond milk" now even in greek, it'll probably refer to the vegan stuff, and you'll have to literally say "milk with the taste of almond" for the other one.
Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ...
A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk.
It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days).
But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p
[1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
Soumada is very tasty, a bit like amaretto but without the alcohol. I haven't had it in years ...
A similar and very popular drink along similar lines is "rose milk", which is stirring up some rose sherbet in milk.
It was a popular way of getting kids to drink milk back in my day (slightly less popular these days).
But I admit, if a vegan "rose milk" comes out as some milky alternative made of rose petals and I have to repurpose "rose milk" as well, I'm going to be quite upset :p
[1] https://www.mycretangoods.com/article/16856/Soumada-traditio...
> Well, admittedly, I'm thinking in my native language, which is Greek, and where "almond milk" was basically milk mixed in with "Soumada" [1].
"Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?
"Αμυγδαλόγαλα"; I confess I've never heard that word but maybe it's just an old word?
In Greek you don't tend to say that, you'd say Γάλα Αμύγδαλο instead (similarly Γάλα Σοκολάτα for chocolate milk, and Γάλα Τριαντάφυλλο for rose milk).
Ah, I see. Γάλα σοκολάτα, I know. I hadn't heard of the others but they make sense in that way.
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk?
Because that would be crippling for an advertising perspective. It sounds like something out of a satirical sci-fi dystopian environment. The goal is to encourage people to choose it as an alternative to dairy milk, not to use the most precise label.
Because that would be crippling for an advertising perspective. It sounds like something out of a satirical sci-fi dystopian environment. The goal is to encourage people to choose it as an alternative to dairy milk, not to use the most precise label.
I get it. But it could have easily been a play on the word 'milk/milky', without calling it 'milk' per se. Like "Nilk" or "Plantmilk" or something.
E.g. lactose-free dairy milk is marketed as 'delac'. It's not that hard.
E.g. lactose-free dairy milk is marketed as 'delac'. It's not that hard.
Lactose-free dairy milk is milk with added lactase, an enzyme that is used by mammals to digest lactose in milk. Now, children, remember from dairy science class: lactose is a complex sugar made of two siple sugars, glucose and galactose. Lactase breaks lactose down to its constituent simple sugars so that they can more easily be absorbed by picky mammalian guts.
Fun fact: lactose-free milk still has all the sugars that made up its original lactose content (you could even argue it still has all its lactose, if you wanted to be really obstinate). Glucose in particular registers as sweeter than lactose and for this reason many "lactose-free" milks have messages on the packaging informing consumers that they have "no sweetener added".
Lactose-free milks also tend to be Ultra Heat Treated, which enhances the sweet taste by means of the Maillard reaction. See wikipedia.
Fun fact: lactose-free milk still has all the sugars that made up its original lactose content (you could even argue it still has all its lactose, if you wanted to be really obstinate). Glucose in particular registers as sweeter than lactose and for this reason many "lactose-free" milks have messages on the packaging informing consumers that they have "no sweetener added".
Lactose-free milks also tend to be Ultra Heat Treated, which enhances the sweet taste by means of the Maillard reaction. See wikipedia.
Food is very highly regulated. And for good reason.
It seems totally feasible to require a new product to have a new name, even if it's kind of like an existing product. Think: ice cream. Ice cream is a regulated product with a formal legal definition. Places making cheaper ice cream substitutes were forced to come up with names to distinguish their products: soft serve, Frosty, FroYo, etc.
It takes the consumer all of 10 seconds to get the gist.
Everyone should be okay with truth in food. Especially vegan, who certainly would NOT be okay with products that mislead them into believing a product is vegan when it is not.
It seems totally feasible to require a new product to have a new name, even if it's kind of like an existing product. Think: ice cream. Ice cream is a regulated product with a formal legal definition. Places making cheaper ice cream substitutes were forced to come up with names to distinguish their products: soft serve, Frosty, FroYo, etc.
It takes the consumer all of 10 seconds to get the gist.
Everyone should be okay with truth in food. Especially vegan, who certainly would NOT be okay with products that mislead them into believing a product is vegan when it is not.
Im sure there is a happy middle ground here where nut juice could be called something both attractive and accurate, but not all foods are protected like that. Milk chocolate is not really chocolate, lots of things with "pie" in the name aren't really pie, lemon "bars" are not really bars, choco tacos are not really tacos, peanuts are not actually nuts, and numerous other examples. If they made it illegal to label nut juices as milk, it would due to lobbying from dairy and not from a general protection of accurate food labeling.
Chocolate, is in fact "protected like that." The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) contains a section on Cocao, and foods must meet the legal requirements to be called milk chocolate, otherwise, they'd have to be called something generic a "confectionery" or given a brand name, like "Meelk-Shock-o-Lock®".
Lots of foods are regulated by the FDA or USDA. Mayo, yoghurt, butter, bread, etc, etc. If you search the FDA or USDA site, you'll find the requirements that must be met for a company to use such terms. That's why Miracle Whip is called a "dressing," in the USA instead of Mayonnaise.
The CFR contains a subsection specifically for frozen pies (though, one of the Trump administrations last acts was to gut this). Lemon bars must contain lemons, per food labeling regulations. Peanuts have a section too.
And yeah, industry lobbyists are largely the creators of legal definitions for foods. If you're a beef producer, you certainly don't want other companies to be able to sell ground up bugs as "ground beef" and undercut your prices or give consumers a bad impression of your product.
I will concede, tacos are not regulated.
Lots of foods are regulated by the FDA or USDA. Mayo, yoghurt, butter, bread, etc, etc. If you search the FDA or USDA site, you'll find the requirements that must be met for a company to use such terms. That's why Miracle Whip is called a "dressing," in the USA instead of Mayonnaise.
The CFR contains a subsection specifically for frozen pies (though, one of the Trump administrations last acts was to gut this). Lemon bars must contain lemons, per food labeling regulations. Peanuts have a section too.
And yeah, industry lobbyists are largely the creators of legal definitions for foods. If you're a beef producer, you certainly don't want other companies to be able to sell ground up bugs as "ground beef" and undercut your prices or give consumers a bad impression of your product.
I will concede, tacos are not regulated.
"new product", one that's hundreds of years old. Check out medieval and Renaissance recipes for Fridays and Lent.
Don't go there. E.g. Olive oil is considered an animal product for Lent purposes because it used to be carried in flasks made from animal hide. And whether to use almond milk ot not depends on permission from your priest, if they think you are simply mimicking the forbidden stuff it "imitates", and thus still worth avoiding.
This has little to do with the stop confusing the names of things argument.
I concede that almond milk was a bad example, but if anything that strengthens the point.
I bet even back then people had the same discussion in fact :p
This has little to do with the stop confusing the names of things argument.
I concede that almond milk was a bad example, but if anything that strengthens the point.
I bet even back then people had the same discussion in fact :p
Trader Joe's (and maybe others) uses the word "beverage" to describe a lot of its milk alternatives.
I guess we should always be specifying "Cow's" milk.
Huh? Almond milk goes back 500 years and has always, always been made of only almonds. It would be very strange to rename it after 200 generations and several civilizations have come and gone.
Bah! I think you may be right. A quick google corroborates it was referenced in english as early as the 14th century. I’ve been annoyed at the term milk for non lactose based liquids for a while now. I’d assumed it was modern marketing usurping the term. Now I have to find some other thing to be mildly annoyed at.
I was the same way. Its hard on this old dog sometimes.
Yes you're right that was a bad example. My bad choice of specific example shouldn't dismiss the more general point though.
If you want to pick another bad example, consider "rice milk" in Asia. Not a dairy product.
Indeed. So introducing a dairy beverage called rice milk would cause unnecessary confusion. Yes?
I don't know. We already have sheeps' milk, cows' milk, mothers' milk, milkweed...perhaps folks are ready for some variation in their language.
> What's wrong with calling the vegan almond milk "almond-based milk alternative" if it's not actual milk?
Costco does this. They don't call it almond milk but "Almond beverage". I think they do similar with other vegan products.
Costco does this. They don't call it almond milk but "Almond beverage". I think they do similar with other vegan products.
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We don't need to invent new anything. So many great vegan dishes have existed for centuries and survived against meat on their own merits. Proper falafel with tabouleh and tahini is amazing. Chana or brinjal masala are a treat. Pasta with a simple 4 ingredient Napoli is the ultimate comfort food. Don't even get me started on dosa. Hell, fucking bread dipped in olive oil is good.
Yet, for God knows what reason, whenever some vegan is trying to convince me of the merits of their diet, they hand me some godawful dry sausage made of hydrolysed soy protein and say "see, it's just like a real sausage. Did you know she's Paul McCartney's daughter?". Or some fermented cashew nuts smeared on a piece of bread that they think is anything remotely like cheese. I have never understood this and have since reached the conclusion that most vegans are closer to paleo, gluten-free (not coeliac) and other alternative diet folk in that they just don't "get" people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food.
Yet, for God knows what reason, whenever some vegan is trying to convince me of the merits of their diet, they hand me some godawful dry sausage made of hydrolysed soy protein and say "see, it's just like a real sausage. Did you know she's Paul McCartney's daughter?". Or some fermented cashew nuts smeared on a piece of bread that they think is anything remotely like cheese. I have never understood this and have since reached the conclusion that most vegans are closer to paleo, gluten-free (not coeliac) and other alternative diet folk in that they just don't "get" people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food.
Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Paleo/Primal foods are the most satisfying, tastey and healthy foods. The feelings around food are evolutionarily rooted. We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design.
There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years. It resulted in a population of 8 billion homo sapiens. That is not actually good for the Earth, but if you want to know what to eat, to maximize your health as an individual, look that way.
There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years. It resulted in a population of 8 billion homo sapiens. That is not actually good for the Earth, but if you want to know what to eat, to maximize your health as an individual, look that way.
>Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food?
Mainly it's the language that is used by people who adhere to diets such as this. There is more reference to the health properties of various ingredients than there is the art of cooking, and this feels alien to people like myself. Of course, there are paleo foodies (just as there are vegans), but they are in the minority.
I'm not saying the way you see things is wrong (if anything, the fact that you're almost certainly healthier than me is strong evidence to the contrary), but for evangelists of alternative diets there is a cultural barrier to overcome that vegans especially seem to just not be aware of.
Mainly it's the language that is used by people who adhere to diets such as this. There is more reference to the health properties of various ingredients than there is the art of cooking, and this feels alien to people like myself. Of course, there are paleo foodies (just as there are vegans), but they are in the minority.
I'm not saying the way you see things is wrong (if anything, the fact that you're almost certainly healthier than me is strong evidence to the contrary), but for evangelists of alternative diets there is a cultural barrier to overcome that vegans especially seem to just not be aware of.
> We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design.
Not with modern food science. A lot of people consider cornsyrupy sugar water to be satisfying because companies have collectively spent billions and decades in R&D and marketing to make it taste and look as satisfying as possible.
It works because our sense are not infallible, they can be tricked and purposefully mislead. Just like taste expectations are often built from childhood on.
Not with modern food science. A lot of people consider cornsyrupy sugar water to be satisfying because companies have collectively spent billions and decades in R&D and marketing to make it taste and look as satisfying as possible.
It works because our sense are not infallible, they can be tricked and purposefully mislead. Just like taste expectations are often built from childhood on.
Exactly. There are plenty of great vegan dishes you can do without having to use any highly processed stuff.
Where I live in the EU, a product cannot legally be labeled as cheese if it does not meet the official definition of cheese, which includes being made from milk.
We also have lots of vegan "cheese" type products with funny names like "Keese" and "Cheez" and some are pretty good.
I like keeping the names clear because no one gets confused and buys the wrong thing.
We also have lots of vegan "cheese" type products with funny names like "Keese" and "Cheez" and some are pretty good.
I like keeping the names clear because no one gets confused and buys the wrong thing.
Em nope? There was a case brought by the farmers to try and outlaw this labelling but the case is still ongoing, if not thrown out already ...
Maybe it’s the case in Your Country but it’s far from being a pan European thing.
Maybe it’s the case in Your Country but it’s far from being a pan European thing.
Em yes!
"The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by also prohibiting terms that liken plant-based products to dairy, eg "yoghurt-style", "butter alternative" or "cheese substitute"."[0]
0. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c...
"The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by also prohibiting terms that liken plant-based products to dairy, eg "yoghurt-style", "butter alternative" or "cheese substitute"."[0]
0. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=588638a6-879c...
Apologies that’s a new one on me I guess it hasn’t made it to my neck of the woods yet! I don’t think the similar effort around meats has gone so well ...
EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol...
It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!
EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol...
It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!
> Amendment 171: 34 politicians protest plant-based dairy censorship in European Parliament
Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.
Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.
Well you can go look up literally any other recent article on the topic.
In the US it's the same, the FDA has regulations and all the (not real cheese) items have either a funny name ("cheeze") or have something like "imitation cheese product" or "cheese food product" (I've seen a number of different labels over my life) to indicate it's not real (milk) cheese.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFR...
I broadly agree, certainly so with all the vegan cheese approximations I've tried, but I don't think it applies to cakes. The cake recipe I grew up eating (in a non-vegetarian, lower middle class, US household) was "accidentally vegan". It absolutely passes the test of "if you didn't know you wouldn't know". Incidentally I think impossible burgers pass that test too, and beyond burgers only barely don't.
Fun factoid: in Chinese, there are different terms for soy juice (豆浆 doujiang), freshly made from soy and meant to taste like it, and Western-style soy milk (豆奶 dounai), which adds in all sorts of weird additives, particularly oil, and ends up tasting like neither. The latter did not exist in China until the concept was imported from the West, and remains far more niche (coffee shops, packaged drinks) than the original.
The main exception I would grant to this is when you have ingredients in a recipe that you need to figure out vegan substitutions for. In this case you do want something marketed as the vegan version of it.
Eggs, in particular, need a valid vegan substitute. As an aside, if we could veganize all the different incantations of an egg it would be ground-breaking. Alas, I fear we are doomed to have 5 different vegan products to replace those incantations of an egg. 1 for scrambled eggs, 1 for baking, 1 for emulsifying, 1 for adhesion, etc.
Eggs, in particular, need a valid vegan substitute. As an aside, if we could veganize all the different incantations of an egg it would be ground-breaking. Alas, I fear we are doomed to have 5 different vegan products to replace those incantations of an egg. 1 for scrambled eggs, 1 for baking, 1 for emulsifying, 1 for adhesion, etc.
>Why do we
Because this is as much a political statement, and battle, as it is a personal dietary choice.
As crazy as it sounds, a certain segment of people love to change the definition of words. It is not enough to not want to eat animal products themselves, they also are not content to allow others to have these things to themselves unmolested by grotesque artificial imitations.
They want their non-thing to become the thing, replace it, and to the degree it disgusts and frustrates the normal crowd and impinges on their enjoyment of the normal version, the happier they are.
Because this is as much a political statement, and battle, as it is a personal dietary choice.
As crazy as it sounds, a certain segment of people love to change the definition of words. It is not enough to not want to eat animal products themselves, they also are not content to allow others to have these things to themselves unmolested by grotesque artificial imitations.
They want their non-thing to become the thing, replace it, and to the degree it disgusts and frustrates the normal crowd and impinges on their enjoyment of the normal version, the happier they are.
Much simpler to assume that selling to omnivores opens a much larger market than selling only to vegans. Omnivores want to eat cheese, and are not looking for "fermented cashew cubes", but might try "cashew cheese" if it was with the cheese and (cheaper/healthier/prettier/recommended by a friend).
I wish vegan cheese would be more specific as to what it's imitating. "Cashew cheese" is less helpful than "cashew paneer (great in curries!)" or "melty cashew mozzarella" or something that describes what facet of real cheese they've managed to get right.
it's a good point, and one I broadly agree with. These products do exist, however, like seitan and tempeh. If you making something sufficiently delicious, however, it should be easier to sell than those (IMO).
Agreed. I explained benevolent bacon to someone as “you’re not going to think ‘wow it’s like I just ate bacon’ but you might think ‘ok I don’t need to eat bacon when I’ve had that’.” For me, anyway, certain key flavors and textures are there, but it’s still a new experience itself.
>Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
Exactly. Maybe the main problem is that it's hard to market 'Soylent Yellow'.
If I were to become a vegetarian, I think I'd just buy a bunch of Indian cookbooks and stay away from IncrediblyMeatyPlantBasedBurger(tm).
Exactly. Maybe the main problem is that it's hard to market 'Soylent Yellow'.
If I were to become a vegetarian, I think I'd just buy a bunch of Indian cookbooks and stay away from IncrediblyMeatyPlantBasedBurger(tm).
Or ultra-processed junk food in general. Being a vegetarian is a good "excuse" (or side effect if you prefer) to avoid that kind of food but all those surrogates are basically following the trails of junk food. I understand their "gateway drug" behavior but still...
I agree, and that is an odd thing.
Our local way-overpriced health grocery story, which is always packed with people, is completely stuffed with health potato chips and health dessert items and health pre-made stuff with long ingredient lists.
Maybe it's just the beauty of a free market, you can always make money on social behavior.
Our local way-overpriced health grocery story, which is always packed with people, is completely stuffed with health potato chips and health dessert items and health pre-made stuff with long ingredient lists.
Maybe it's just the beauty of a free market, you can always make money on social behavior.
Yeah don't get me wrong prepackaged food can be a big list of what!? On the other hand some of it really does seem reasonably made. At least until the Big Evil Food Co buys them out.
This. As a flexitarian trying to increase veg protein to decrease my footprint I find I enjoy cooking with tofu, dried soy crumbs, chicpeas and home made seitan the most. They are also very versatile and do not introduce seven conflicting flavors and colors out of the box. Simple and been on the shelves since forever. Fake meats can be impressive as engineering but before long tend to feel weird, off and/or boring.
Impossible does a great job of imitating meat, primarily the flavor of blood. But as I'm eating less meat, I'm tasting the blood more distinctly and find I actually don't enjoy it at all.
Impossible does a great job of imitating meat, primarily the flavor of blood. But as I'm eating less meat, I'm tasting the blood more distinctly and find I actually don't enjoy it at all.
Soy curls are great with buffalo sauce
It's because people are working with existing recipes they know and dishes they grew up on and have fond memories of. Thus having a good vegan version of those recipes often relies on having a reasonable ingredient substitution.
>Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
It can but if the objective is to reduce the world's, and specifically North America's appetite for animal products. You need to either aim to replace the current products or await a culture shift away from what is easy and cheap today.
It can but if the objective is to reduce the world's, and specifically North America's appetite for animal products. You need to either aim to replace the current products or await a culture shift away from what is easy and cheap today.
We can also wait (not so long, either) for increasingly severe heat waves and droughts to harm the viability of the dairy industry in the US. That way scarcity and cost will take care of the job in a less gentle way, but there were be a lot of other incidental problems to cope with.
I bet it would just cause a change in production conditions which would be poor for the animals. It would be far better to find sustainable ways to use the livestock to sequester carbon (c.f. Allan Savory TED talk) and limit their environmental impact instead of giving up good eating.
Your objective is terrible. The ability to eat as much animal products as you desire is synonymous with living in a first world country. A future where we can no longer do that is backwards.
Your ability to eat as much food as you desire is synonymous with living in a first world country.
The ability murder as many animals as you want is not the desired state I look for when thinking about the world in which my child to grow up. A future in which that is synonymous with status is backwards - to me.
The ability murder as many animals as you want is not the desired state I look for when thinking about the world in which my child to grow up. A future in which that is synonymous with status is backwards - to me.
> murder
Please show me the law.
Please show me the law.
They’re clearly using the word in the moral sense rather than the legal sense.
So in the wrong sense?
This squeamishness is a product of the infantilization western culture seems to be going through recently. Hopefully immigration from 2/3-world countries (e.g. me) helps fix it.
This squeamishness is a product of the infantilization western culture seems to be going through recently. Hopefully immigration from 2/3-world countries (e.g. me) helps fix it.
A 'squeamishness' that comes from the reality that we don't need to kill animals to live comfortably anymore. The morality of a rich society is naturally different from the morality of poor country.
It’s a perfectly legit use of the word. Words are not defined by God; they get their meaning though use, and Merriam-Webster records one such use is “to slaughter wantonly”.
Yeah veganism is 100% a first world privilege.
Not at all. I live next to a tiny shop in Mexico that sells fruits, vegetables, and some extras like oatmeal and beans and olive oil. I eat healthier (according to research reviewed by NutritionFacts.org) and more cheaply than anyone I know once I decided to limit my diet to only the things they have, incidentally vegan.
I spend almost nothing on food in this shop. Same for all the poor Mexicans who live in the area.
It’s quite obvious that ubiquitous access to cheap animal products is a first world thing.
I spend almost nothing on food in this shop. Same for all the poor Mexicans who live in the area.
It’s quite obvious that ubiquitous access to cheap animal products is a first world thing.
Let me introduce you to South Indian cuisine... yes, it's not actually 100% vegan, but it goes to show that you don't need to be a Marin County millionaire to eat healthy plant-based food most of your life.
Well, you can choose to not contribute to animal-based agriculture. Similarly, I do not want mine to grow up in a world with forced veganism. Who wins in this conflict? I would say you keep your morals in your court for such contentious issues, to do otherwise is maliciously aggressive.
I don’t know if cows can suffer like humans can or not, so I am content to not get in your way.
That said, I invite you to consider what you would and would not allow others to do given a hypothetical: if you genuinely believed that cows were just as capable of suffering as humans — especially given that cows lactate only after giving birth, and dairy cows live only for so long as their milk is worth more than the cost of keeping them alive.
Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference (for Star Trek when around Star Wars fans, or whatever) but morals don’t work the same.
That said, I invite you to consider what you would and would not allow others to do given a hypothetical: if you genuinely believed that cows were just as capable of suffering as humans — especially given that cows lactate only after giving birth, and dairy cows live only for so long as their milk is worth more than the cost of keeping them alive.
Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference (for Star Trek when around Star Wars fans, or whatever) but morals don’t work the same.
> Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference but morals don’t work the same.
Handling difficult feelings without acting out is one of the definitions of being a functional adult. You may have that backwards, though it is very consistent with the pop culture moral / philosophical (behavioral?) flavor of late.
Handling difficult feelings without acting out is one of the definitions of being a functional adult. You may have that backwards, though it is very consistent with the pop culture moral / philosophical (behavioral?) flavor of late.
Counterpoints: every religious war ever. The “war” on drugs. Prohibition. Moral crusades for censorship or elimination of porn. Rules against sex work in general. Sections 64, 65, 69, 70 and 71 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The religious affiliation requirements in the rules of succession of the British Crown. Forbidden foods in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and others. Western prohibition on multiple spouses.
The level of enforcement and punishment varies form instance to instance, from culture to culture, and from year to year, but there are cases even today where religious morality leads to extreme use of force: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/hindu-mob...
The level of enforcement and punishment varies form instance to instance, from culture to culture, and from year to year, but there are cases even today where religious morality leads to extreme use of force: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/hindu-mob...
Those are examples of dysfunctional adults acting out. Thank you for making my case for me!
If you choose to describe majority of the electorate in multiple elections in a row as “not meeting the definition of ‘being a functional adult’”, then whatever definition you used for those words are not useful ones — and that’s just Prohibition.
Disagreeing with the requirements of sections 64, 65, and 70? Outside of philosophical discussions, most normal people find them sufficiently repulsive that even suggesting they might not be things that ought to be illegal is enough to make you a social pariah. (I’m not sure exactly how 69 or 71 are seen, but the actions they outlaw are demonstrably frowned on enough for the sections to survive multiple elections).
Disagreeing with the requirements of sections 64, 65, and 70? Outside of philosophical discussions, most normal people find them sufficiently repulsive that even suggesting they might not be things that ought to be illegal is enough to make you a social pariah. (I’m not sure exactly how 69 or 71 are seen, but the actions they outlaw are demonstrably frowned on enough for the sections to survive multiple elections).
Fair point - thank you for the reasoned reply, esp. regarding the specifics for sections 64, 65, 70...
How is the presence of vegan cheese forced veganism ? Let us incorporate the true environmental cost of animal products into the price at the supermarket and have them compete fairly.
It's sad how this whole discourse so often boils down to the two extreme choices of "No animal products at all, you murderer!" vs "So much animal products as I want, you dictator!".
When imho a pretty sensible middle ground could very well be found between these two. But that would involve some moderation, rediscovering animal products as something special, and not just a mass commodity, something neither of the two extreme camps would ever agree with.
When imho a pretty sensible middle ground could very well be found between these two. But that would involve some moderation, rediscovering animal products as something special, and not just a mass commodity, something neither of the two extreme camps would ever agree with.
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>I guess I just see it as a fool's errand to try to approach vegan cheeses as imitations.
I don't really think its a fool's errand for consumers to approach food as an imitation when its literally developed and marketed as an imitation/replacement.
Eventually the imitations and/or authentic lab grown food might get it right. Until then people will rightfully complain about them when they are disappointed.
Personally If I wanted to eat less animal products I'd just eat more fruit/vegetables/grains/rice prepared in traditional ways. They are delicious and likely to remain better than anything artificial at least for several more decades.
I don't really think its a fool's errand for consumers to approach food as an imitation when its literally developed and marketed as an imitation/replacement.
Eventually the imitations and/or authentic lab grown food might get it right. Until then people will rightfully complain about them when they are disappointed.
Personally If I wanted to eat less animal products I'd just eat more fruit/vegetables/grains/rice prepared in traditional ways. They are delicious and likely to remain better than anything artificial at least for several more decades.
Where I think the imitations are a bit more useful than home cooking (besides the fact that we do like to have some easy imitation meals sometimes), is levelling the playing field with stuff like fast food, BBQs, restaurants whose cuisine isn't typically vegan. Substituting the only meat part of, say, a burger is easy when there's, well, a substitute.
While I also like black bean burgers, veggie patties, etc (though I can't personally handle portobello mushrooms as a patty, I know tons of people also love that), it's clear that people like having the pseudo-meat option.
I know I do like having the option, especially for cooking when I don't want to make seitan or grounds or something from scratch, which involves following a whole other recipe just to reach my "base protein" that I then cook with.
While I also like black bean burgers, veggie patties, etc (though I can't personally handle portobello mushrooms as a patty, I know tons of people also love that), it's clear that people like having the pseudo-meat option.
I know I do like having the option, especially for cooking when I don't want to make seitan or grounds or something from scratch, which involves following a whole other recipe just to reach my "base protein" that I then cook with.
Why can't it just be treated as a food in itself?
The producers of this stuff don't need to market to informed consumers like yourself. They need to go after the people who, while looking at items on a super market shelf, have no idea what to do with "cultured nut butter" but might have an idea about what "cashew cheese" is.
The producers of this stuff don't need to market to informed consumers like yourself. They need to go after the people who, while looking at items on a super market shelf, have no idea what to do with "cultured nut butter" but might have an idea about what "cashew cheese" is.
Because they're vegan cheeses.
There's a lot of cultures with strong vegan food traditions, or at least, there's plenty of dishes that are naturally vegan. Vegan cheese doesn't fall into those traditions, it's a processed food product meant to provide a substitute for cheese without using animal products. That's really the only standard by which it can be judged, how well it succeeds at what it's trying to do.
There's a lot of cultures with strong vegan food traditions, or at least, there's plenty of dishes that are naturally vegan. Vegan cheese doesn't fall into those traditions, it's a processed food product meant to provide a substitute for cheese without using animal products. That's really the only standard by which it can be judged, how well it succeeds at what it's trying to do.
There is a difference between imitating and replacing.
Personally I would love a list of animal product ingredients and their suitable vegan replacements when trying to cook after some recipe.
Personally I would love a list of animal product ingredients and their suitable vegan replacements when trying to cook after some recipe.
Wanted to make pizza with my two year old daughter a couple of weeks ago. Picked up some mozzarella at the store and when I went to use it noticed the well hidden plant logo and "plant based" text that was almost the same color as the packaging. Figured I'd give it a shot. It was inedible, completely ruined the pizza. My daughter took a bite and said "no, dad" I agreed and we threw it away and got a happy meal.
I figure once everyone gets fooled once like I have it will stop selling.
I figure once everyone gets fooled once like I have it will stop selling.
Finding vegan cheeses that work well on pizza is a monumentally difficult task. Miyoko is one of few I've liked for pizza use. I generally don't eat much store bought vegan cheese as I don't love the Kraft singles-type ones my vegan wife has nostalgia for, and buying the nice vegan ones is usually pretty expensive.
Making homemade cashew cheese has pretty great results for vegan pizza. It's not the same as dairy, obviously, but it's a good main topping for when we share a pizza.
Making homemade cashew cheese has pretty great results for vegan pizza. It's not the same as dairy, obviously, but it's a good main topping for when we share a pizza.
i am not liking the way many of this is packaged. any other product and hackernews would be angry for the "deceptive packaging", but because the hackernews like this product, they are give it a freepass.
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Are you sure there's really such a trend in HN discussions? I've never noticed it.
have yet to read a comment that likes it :shrug:
I'll chime in as liking it. Or at least, I like the ones that are made from fermented nuts. So, brands like Miyoko's and Treeline. I even make my own fake cheese in that genre at home sometimes.
Others, like Daiya, I won't object to if someone else wants to put it on whatever we're cooking. I'm pretty lactose intolerant, so I can't speak to how it compares to dairy cheese; my personal take from the few times where I'll pop a Lactaid in order to participate in a pizza party is that, while Daiya fake mozzarella is meh, the stuff it's intended to mimic is even worse. I occasionally wonder if there is something to that casomorphin theory that the article mentions, and people who regularly consume dairy largely like it for approximately the same reason smokers like the taste of tobacco smoke.
And then there are some brands, generally of more of a 1990s vintage, that are legitimately gross. Unfortunately, those seem to be the ones that are most commonly stocked in grocery stores, for Heaven knows what reason.
Others, like Daiya, I won't object to if someone else wants to put it on whatever we're cooking. I'm pretty lactose intolerant, so I can't speak to how it compares to dairy cheese; my personal take from the few times where I'll pop a Lactaid in order to participate in a pizza party is that, while Daiya fake mozzarella is meh, the stuff it's intended to mimic is even worse. I occasionally wonder if there is something to that casomorphin theory that the article mentions, and people who regularly consume dairy largely like it for approximately the same reason smokers like the taste of tobacco smoke.
And then there are some brands, generally of more of a 1990s vintage, that are legitimately gross. Unfortunately, those seem to be the ones that are most commonly stocked in grocery stores, for Heaven knows what reason.
I'm curious, which brand was it? Can you find a picture of the packaging? I'm morbidly curious to see what this alleged train wreck looks like. I've honestly never noticed a brand that I thought was hard to identify. They usually prominently feature language like "alternative" or "-style shreds" or whatever.
I'm not even sure why one of these companies would try to make the nature of the product well-hidden. Their goal isn't to trick people who eat dairy, it's to sell a product to people who are looking to avoid dairy. Why would a company actively hide from their target market?
I'm not even sure why one of these companies would try to make the nature of the product well-hidden. Their goal isn't to trick people who eat dairy, it's to sell a product to people who are looking to avoid dairy. Why would a company actively hide from their target market?
Looks like they updated the package: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Plant-Based-Mozzarell...
The one I had that plant based logo was a quarter of the size and it did not have leaves like that on the front. Also that white plant based text was a few shades lighter than the background (that was previously sky blue) making it hard to read. Admittedly I should've seen the "style" part and looked further, also I should've questioned why it was the one of the only shredded cheese left in the fridge. It isn't like I was defrauded but that certainly wasn't what I intended to buy, good on them for fixing it.
The one I had that plant based logo was a quarter of the size and it did not have leaves like that on the front. Also that white plant based text was a few shades lighter than the background (that was previously sky blue) making it hard to read. Admittedly I should've seen the "style" part and looked further, also I should've questioned why it was the one of the only shredded cheese left in the fridge. It isn't like I was defrauded but that certainly wasn't what I intended to buy, good on them for fixing it.
Ha. Even the current packaging isn't that hot.
Leave it to Wal-Mart to screw that up. I bet they were so focused on sticking to the "Great Value" graphic design manual that they ended up deciding that clearly conveying all the critical information on the label would have ruined their branding consistency.
For what it's worth, I can tell just by the ingredients label that that stuff is gross. Potato starch, coconut oil, and some unspecified "natural flavor" that's somehow more than 2% of the ingredient bill? No thanks.
Leave it to Wal-Mart to screw that up. I bet they were so focused on sticking to the "Great Value" graphic design manual that they ended up deciding that clearly conveying all the critical information on the label would have ruined their branding consistency.
For what it's worth, I can tell just by the ingredients label that that stuff is gross. Potato starch, coconut oil, and some unspecified "natural flavor" that's somehow more than 2% of the ingredient bill? No thanks.
What are “natural” flavors derived from?
Given that the product is vegan, either plants or fungi. Beyond that, I have no idea how you'd know. In the US, the Food and Drug Administration defines it thusly:
The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional.
(https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfr...)
The term natural flavor or natural flavoring means the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional.
(https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfr...)
"Why would a company actively hide from their target market?"
Much cheaper to make. Maybe their target market is "people who buy it by accident and throw it away".
Much cheaper to make. Maybe their target market is "people who buy it by accident and throw it away".
I don't know about OP, but I've been fooled into buying one of these margarine products instead of butter:
https://www.vitam.gr/proionta
And I was very annoyed. Mostly at myself.
https://www.vitam.gr/proionta
And I was very annoyed. Mostly at myself.
I tried a sample of Vegan Cheese once and it immediately brought to mind Arthur Dent trying to get Tea out of the Nutrimatic. It was something almost but not quite completely unlike cheese. It made me wonder if the person who invented it had ever tasted cheese before or had just read about it in a book or something.
If it had been something I bought from the store I might have thought it just had a short shelf life, but this was a sample from the vendor at a trade show. I tried it on the spot. Presumably it was as good as it was going to get. Also, that vendor was a complete jerk and set up their booth as far away from the water fountains as possible, so I was forced to hold that horrendous not-cheese taste in my mouth for several minutes while I rushed across the floor.
If it had been something I bought from the store I might have thought it just had a short shelf life, but this was a sample from the vendor at a trade show. I tried it on the spot. Presumably it was as good as it was going to get. Also, that vendor was a complete jerk and set up their booth as far away from the water fountains as possible, so I was forced to hold that horrendous not-cheese taste in my mouth for several minutes while I rushed across the floor.
Vegan cheese is junk food. When you bake it into mac & cheese or melt it on a hamburger it does a great job. When you want to actually enjoy some cheese it's not even close to equivalent.
It also has approximately zero nutritional value, although the nut-based cheeses I guess have some fat and protein.
It's not really meant for regular people to enjoy. It's meant for vegans, people with dairy allergies, and other people can't or won't eat cheese to have the ability to enjoy the memory and suggestion of cheese.
I personally am very very deeply grateful for the existence and excellence of Daiya in providing me with a melty cheese-like food product that reminds me enough of real cheese that I can have fun eating it. But I'm not about to suggest that vegan cheese is and equivalent for real cheese made of milk from a cow, goat, sheep, etc. It's a substitute.
It's like Impossible meat. Yes, it makes a good burger, but you aren't going to get an Impossible Steak any time soon, and no it doesn't really taste like beef. It's still just chunks of soy protein (and it sits in your stomach the way you'd expect chunks of soy protein to sit).
It also has approximately zero nutritional value, although the nut-based cheeses I guess have some fat and protein.
It's not really meant for regular people to enjoy. It's meant for vegans, people with dairy allergies, and other people can't or won't eat cheese to have the ability to enjoy the memory and suggestion of cheese.
I personally am very very deeply grateful for the existence and excellence of Daiya in providing me with a melty cheese-like food product that reminds me enough of real cheese that I can have fun eating it. But I'm not about to suggest that vegan cheese is and equivalent for real cheese made of milk from a cow, goat, sheep, etc. It's a substitute.
It's like Impossible meat. Yes, it makes a good burger, but you aren't going to get an Impossible Steak any time soon, and no it doesn't really taste like beef. It's still just chunks of soy protein (and it sits in your stomach the way you'd expect chunks of soy protein to sit).
How do you define junk food? Most animal-based products are more “junky” than vegan alternatives. No vegan meat substitute will have cholesterol, for instance.
As for nutritional value, there are certainly good fats and carbs in those products. Absent some protein, sure, but to say they have no nutritional value is disingenuous.
As for nutritional value, there are certainly good fats and carbs in those products. Absent some protein, sure, but to say they have no nutritional value is disingenuous.
I am not vegan, but lactose intolerant. Vegan cheese has changed my life. Mind you that I was not lactose intolerant till about 18yrs. So I have certainly tried most versions of dairy cheese. I love them both. Sometimes Vegan cheese' flavor and texture is suited and in other cases I would have preferred regular cheese. The fail case happens for me when I try to compare these new vegan X with original X at every single detail instead of judging each of them on their own merit.
Which brands have you tried? There's a wild diversity, and I suspect even with dairy cheeses you could try many kinds and think it's "missing" something (compared to another type of cheese, or even the same cheese from a different producer)
For example, a (dairy) farmer's cheese is going to be completely different from a blue cheese, which is completely different from a sharp cheddar. Each of those is "missing" something compared to the others. Quality vegan cheeses often try to mimic characteristics of different kinds of dairy cheeses, and often come very close. For some kinds of cheese, people actually find them indistinguishable from the classic dairy versions; for example, if you tried 5 kinds of Blue Cheese, you'd likely find differences between them, and might not even be able to identify which one was vegan.
For example, a (dairy) farmer's cheese is going to be completely different from a blue cheese, which is completely different from a sharp cheddar. Each of those is "missing" something compared to the others. Quality vegan cheeses often try to mimic characteristics of different kinds of dairy cheeses, and often come very close. For some kinds of cheese, people actually find them indistinguishable from the classic dairy versions; for example, if you tried 5 kinds of Blue Cheese, you'd likely find differences between them, and might not even be able to identify which one was vegan.
> Which brands have you tried?
More than I could possibly recall. Violife, chao, follow your heart, miyokos, daiya, parmellas, go veggie, kite hill, Trader Joe’s brand
> For some kinds of cheese, people actually find them indistinguishable from the classic dairy versions
Not a chance that I believe this. Maybe as a minor ingredient in a larger meal but certainly not as a main ingredient or on its own.
More than I could possibly recall. Violife, chao, follow your heart, miyokos, daiya, parmellas, go veggie, kite hill, Trader Joe’s brand
> For some kinds of cheese, people actually find them indistinguishable from the classic dairy versions
Not a chance that I believe this. Maybe as a minor ingredient in a larger meal but certainly not as a main ingredient or on its own.
Agree. However a homemade “cashew cheese” (flavor from nutritional yeast, cayenne, and turmeric) can be yummier than cheese, if not totally realistic. Why the store brands can’t meet that quality I don’t know.
Anything that tries to be like actual cheese fails miserably and trends to be mostly fat (coconut) and starch with flavour added. Nutritionally terrible, usually very low protein compared with real cheese. At least with cashew cheese you are eating (mostly) cashews with some flavour added. Still higher in fat and lower in protein than a low fat cheese, but at least it isn't just starch and fat.
I use the liquid from sauerkraut or picked gherkins, garlic, onion powder and some salt, with the obligatory nutritional yeast. Just think of it as a nice pate.
I use the liquid from sauerkraut or picked gherkins, garlic, onion powder and some salt, with the obligatory nutritional yeast. Just think of it as a nice pate.
Yes, and the lack of protein is horrible. When you are vegetarian, you partially substitute meat with cheese --- no way with these vegan look-like-cheese-somewhat products.
it's like 1.3g of protein per 100g (pseudo pasta 'cheese') vs 32g per 100g (Parmigiano-Reggiano) or 23g per 100g for Emmental cheese.
it's like 1.3g of protein per 100g (pseudo pasta 'cheese') vs 32g per 100g (Parmigiano-Reggiano) or 23g per 100g for Emmental cheese.
Depends a little on how puritanical you are - Trader Joe's makes a decent 'Mozarella Style' shredded cheese that's mostly almonds, but has casein from real cheese (to make it melt) and some flavor from parmesan. 40g of protein in a bag, not terrible, but not vegan, just less-dairy.
Cashew cheese is really good, but it isn't at all cheese. It can be used in a few applications where cheese is normally used, but not in the vast majority of them.
Cashew cheese is so freaking food. It's got the perfect texture for nacho cheese dip and buffalo chicken dip. I honestly think it's better than dairy as the base for creamy soups.
I find Violife feta cheese to be more delicious than real feta for snacking, and can devour a pack in one sitting if I'm not paying attention. It's a bit different from real feta, in that it's a lot less briny. Thus in recipes like Greek salad real feta is still better.
Sorry if this sounds too grumpy, but if you're outside the EU then you don't know what "real feta" tastes like because you've only tasted imitation feta from cow's milk. Real feta is made in Greece with sheep and optionally up to 20% goat's milk and even a lot of the feta that is exported from Greece with the PDO symbol on it is awful and tasteless, like a block of watery, salted gypsum. So I can understand why you'd say you think Violife "feta cheese" is more delicious than "real" feta. Because that's not real feta, either.
It might be a matter of taste and also certain kind of cheese might be harder to replicate. My partner and I also tried a lot of vegan brands, and while we disliked most (they were fine but not comparable), we both found the "original" Violife line to be really good.
Mrrweelll... to be fair, the kind of mass-produced cheese most people recognise as "cheese" these days is not that great either. And most commercial cheese basically tastes the same, no matter what it says it is. That's because it's made with the same industriallly produced lyophilised lactic acid bacteria cultures. The job of those cultures is to give cheese its tastes and flavours and since everyone buys the same brands from the same few makers, everybody's cheese tastes the same.
What's worse, outside the EU you can find cheese with names like "feta", "parmesan", "mozzarella", "camembert" etc, that are nothing like the real deal (pet peeve: feta sold in the US is made with cow's milk). So most people who eat cheeses with these names outside the EU are eating substitutes of very inferior quality. From there, to eating plant-based "cheese" and feeling like you eat the real deal it's not such a big distance.
What's worse, outside the EU you can find cheese with names like "feta", "parmesan", "mozzarella", "camembert" etc, that are nothing like the real deal (pet peeve: feta sold in the US is made with cow's milk). So most people who eat cheeses with these names outside the EU are eating substitutes of very inferior quality. From there, to eating plant-based "cheese" and feeling like you eat the real deal it's not such a big distance.
>For some kinds of cheese, people actually find them indistinguishable from the classic dairy versions; for example, if you tried 5 kinds of Blue Cheese, you'd likely find differences between them, and might not even be able to identify which one was vegan.
Maybe for some people, in the same way that smokers drink Tim Hortons because they can't taste the difference. But plenty of us can tell the difference and for us, vegan cheeses taste horrendous.
Maybe for some people, in the same way that smokers drink Tim Hortons because they can't taste the difference. But plenty of us can tell the difference and for us, vegan cheeses taste horrendous.
>Maybe for some people, in the same way that smokers drink Tim Hortons because they can't taste the difference.
Or maybe it's more like beer, most don't like it the first time but after a while you can start appreciating it?
Or maybe it's more like beer, most don't like it the first time but after a while you can start appreciating it?
> The answer is no, it’s not even close to ready. It might pass an initial taste test where you say, that’s not so bad, but then you pick up on all the things it’s missing.
I tried these and agree. My wife is vegetarian and I started to rarely eat meat but cheeses are still a staple in our house. However, vegetarian burgers are ready for prime time. They are my new thing, if you didn't tell I'm eating vegetarian burgers I would swear I'm eating meat.
I tried these and agree. My wife is vegetarian and I started to rarely eat meat but cheeses are still a staple in our house. However, vegetarian burgers are ready for prime time. They are my new thing, if you didn't tell I'm eating vegetarian burgers I would swear I'm eating meat.
(partner is also vegan) - Miyoko Garlic Herb is the only one I've ever had that is "good" in my opinion.
It's definitely not cheese, but as a picnic cheese/crackers situation I actually might like it more than a cheese version.
Miyako’s Mozzarella is good enough.
> [...] is good enough
There is no such thing when it comes to cheese. Cheese is love, cheese is life.
There is no such thing when it comes to cheese. Cheese is love, cheese is life.
That’s just the morphine talking.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casomorphin
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casomorphin
I’m aware. The superiority of real cheese is demonstrated yet again!
Totally agree on miyoko - the best tasting I’ve had and good in its own right kinda as it’s own thing
If you removed the garlic and herbs would it taste any good?
Miyoko’s mozzarella is delicious, both cold and put on pizza. It doesn’t have any herbs added to it.
Agreed, Miyoko's is the closest to a real soft cheese. Makes sense as they age them to get those fermentation flavors
Not a fan of the substitutes either. Vegan meat is okay-ish, but it's obviously not meat and it doesn't have animal fats so it's never gonna be meat really. Also your just fooling your sense of taste, it will adjust eventually, and it seems the more fake meat you eat, the less tasty it becomes.
I wish instead of pushing all these fake meat/dairy, we'd get a real vegetarian/vegan cuisine, like Indian/Oriental cooking, complex meals with lots of natural ingredients and spices, and have that become prevalent, as fast food, at the gas station and so on.
I wish instead of pushing all these fake meat/dairy, we'd get a real vegetarian/vegan cuisine, like Indian/Oriental cooking, complex meals with lots of natural ingredients and spices, and have that become prevalent, as fast food, at the gas station and so on.
I'm not a vegan and have enjoyed vegan cheese on breakfast sandwiches. It works for me when it's not the only flavor.
Yeah I don't think any substitute foods will fare well when eaten on their own but they shine when they're part of a larger dish. And if you're only eating real cheese when its by itself like on a charcuterie board that's already a huge improvement!
I find the meltiness is really what kills it for me, in most cases. If you're wanting something to add to a charcuterie board or to put out with your appetizers, there are a lot of great cashew-based cheeses that do a pretty good job at mimicking softer cheeses. They're a bit pricey, but probably close to the price you'd spend on a quality dairy cheese.
But once you start trying to melt vegan cheese...things get a little wonky. The consistency is just still not there, and yes, sometimes the aftertaste is pretty bad. I've found some that are bearable, but for the most part....I've just embraced cuisines that don't rely on cheese. Maybe some day we'll crack that (hazel?)nut, but we're still not there.
But once you start trying to melt vegan cheese...things get a little wonky. The consistency is just still not there, and yes, sometimes the aftertaste is pretty bad. I've found some that are bearable, but for the most part....I've just embraced cuisines that don't rely on cheese. Maybe some day we'll crack that (hazel?)nut, but we're still not there.
> If you're wanting something to add to a charcuterie board or to put out with your appetizers, there are a lot of great cashew-based cheeses that do a pretty good job at mimicking softer cheeses.
Agreed! They are different but equally delicious.
Agreed! They are different but equally delicious.
Yep, they are all atrocious at this stage.
Orders of magnitude worse than Beyond Beef* / Impossible* (as compared to actual meat).
*just to be clear, I actually love both Beyond & Impossible's products. Extremely close to real meat IMO.
Orders of magnitude worse than Beyond Beef* / Impossible* (as compared to actual meat).
*just to be clear, I actually love both Beyond & Impossible's products. Extremely close to real meat IMO.
I have eaten some that will easily surpass anything you will find in an American convenience store. Sure they aren’t for aficionados but that pass for accompaniment on wraps etc.
I really don't get how people think impossible burger tastes like meat. It has the texture of a lentil patty with blood flavoring added.
In a blind taste test put on for friends people thought the Impossible was actually the real deal and the beef burger was the fake "meat" product.
Both burgers were made with the same spices and were grilled on a charcoal grill.
People are happier to replace their hamburger meat with Impossible instead. Beyond Meat has slightly different flavor that people were able to pick out as "fake meat".
Both burgers were made with the same spices and were grilled on a charcoal grill.
People are happier to replace their hamburger meat with Impossible instead. Beyond Meat has slightly different flavor that people were able to pick out as "fake meat".
What were you using for the "real deal" though? If it was a frozen patty that included textured vegetable protein and other things alongside beef, as so many do, I can understand. I can't understand mixing up an Impossible burger with a decently cooked 100% beef patty.
70/30 beef from a local butcher. No additives.
Why put something else than meat though? I never understood this.
That's not what 70/30 means. It's the lean to fat ratio. So 70% lean, 30% fat beef went into the hamburger.
It depends what you are comparing it against. I've had the Burger King meatless Whopper and found it was no worse than the normal Whopper. If you didn't tell me and I wasn't paying attention might not even notice. But eaten 'naked' side by side with a real high quality meat patty, there is no way you can confuse one for the other.
[deleted]
I mean, so do garbage fast food burgers, so maybe that's the bar they are comparing against?
My personal example was a $15 restaurant where I tried out the impossible burger. Maybe it wasn't an actual 'impossible' burger or some early version.
I didn't care for the first iteration of the Impossible burger either. I thought it tasted just like a Morning Star Farms Grillers Prime, making it nothing special in veggie-burger land.
However, it seems to have improved significantly, to the point that twice now I've thought they accidentally gave me real beef, had a meet-eating friend confirm, and after talking to the waiter and cook and taking a much closer look decided I was wrong.
I love Beyond burgers too, but they are more distinct from real beef as far as my >10yr vegetarian tongue can tell.
However, it seems to have improved significantly, to the point that twice now I've thought they accidentally gave me real beef, had a meet-eating friend confirm, and after talking to the waiter and cook and taking a much closer look decided I was wrong.
I love Beyond burgers too, but they are more distinct from real beef as far as my >10yr vegetarian tongue can tell.
Maybe give it another try, at least in some contexts. These days it's gotten into fast food, and IMO? I can tell the difference between an Impossible Whopper and a regular one, but both are about as good to me. I wouldn't miss it if the regular one went away.
Great, but for lots of people that are lactose intolerant or allergic, it can be good enough. Some are better than others. I am not fond of Daiya, and prefer Violife. You also want to use less of it, and choose or modify recipes accordingly.
Most of the grocery store available ones are more appropriate for ingredient substitution. Cultured products like Rind or Reine that are more appropriate for eating on their own are less available.
In general, they are not cheese and it's not best to approach them as cheese as you would use dairy cheese.
Most of the grocery store available ones are more appropriate for ingredient substitution. Cultured products like Rind or Reine that are more appropriate for eating on their own are less available.
In general, they are not cheese and it's not best to approach them as cheese as you would use dairy cheese.
This does not sound like my experience at all. I'm also vegetarian and lean towards being vegan when it's easy enough. And I can't remember the last time I actually bought dairy cheese at the market that wasn't on a prepared item. I do have a bunch of vegan cheeses in my fridge though. In fact I have frequently remarked recently how amazing all the new cheeses are that I've tried.
You will get best results picking the cheese to meet your need, rather than simply trying to do anything and everything with the first thing you pick up. But even if you can't be bothered these days, it's mostly alright. I'm not even that worried about trying to melt a new vegan cheese these days. I don't have much faith it'll be particularly great, but I'm not worried about ruining anything either.
I don't foresee people running out to grab some vegan cheese to put on their real meat, but even with a truly perfect vegan cheese I think you'd have trouble getting major market penetration in that demographic.
You will get best results picking the cheese to meet your need, rather than simply trying to do anything and everything with the first thing you pick up. But even if you can't be bothered these days, it's mostly alright. I'm not even that worried about trying to melt a new vegan cheese these days. I don't have much faith it'll be particularly great, but I'm not worried about ruining anything either.
I don't foresee people running out to grab some vegan cheese to put on their real meat, but even with a truly perfect vegan cheese I think you'd have trouble getting major market penetration in that demographic.
Non-vegan vegetarian here and I agree. The flip side of it is, the dairy cheeses next to the vegan cheeses don't pass my taste test either.
What are they trying to imitate, shitty deli slices?
I really want vegan cheese, but I want Parmiggiano-Regano, Brie, Smoked Gouda, Burrata, Pepper Jack, and Manchego, not deli slices. I don't even eat real dairy deli slices.
Same thing for vegan yogurt. Every goddamn vegan yogurt brand makes the same 4 boring flavors: vanilla, strawberry, blueberry, and peach. The EXACT 4 FLAVORS I HATE. That's why I don't eat vegan yogurt. Why is there no pineapple upside-down cake, white chocolate raspberry, red date, and matcha? START with interesting flavors and I'll buy it in a heartbeat.
What are they trying to imitate, shitty deli slices?
I really want vegan cheese, but I want Parmiggiano-Regano, Brie, Smoked Gouda, Burrata, Pepper Jack, and Manchego, not deli slices. I don't even eat real dairy deli slices.
Same thing for vegan yogurt. Every goddamn vegan yogurt brand makes the same 4 boring flavors: vanilla, strawberry, blueberry, and peach. The EXACT 4 FLAVORS I HATE. That's why I don't eat vegan yogurt. Why is there no pineapple upside-down cake, white chocolate raspberry, red date, and matcha? START with interesting flavors and I'll buy it in a heartbeat.
Do they not make plain vegan yogurt?
That's how I eat cow's-milk yogurt: I get the plain stuff and add whatever jam/jelly I want to it. That doesn't have exotic flavors like matcha, and it's less convenient than a single-serve package, but it also means that I get to sweeten it to my taste.
I've been thinking of trying some vegan yogurt (I'm a non-vegetarian who is drastically reducing my animal products and eats vegan more often than not). The plant-based milks have been getting pretty good and I had high hopes that they'd make a decent yogurt.
That's how I eat cow's-milk yogurt: I get the plain stuff and add whatever jam/jelly I want to it. That doesn't have exotic flavors like matcha, and it's less convenient than a single-serve package, but it also means that I get to sweeten it to my taste.
I've been thinking of trying some vegan yogurt (I'm a non-vegetarian who is drastically reducing my animal products and eats vegan more often than not). The plant-based milks have been getting pretty good and I had high hopes that they'd make a decent yogurt.
Have either of you tried Pleese? I believe they're mostly selling to pizzerias now [1] and not supermarkets. They aren't able to scale up mass-production quickly because they use a different approach/ingredients - "proprietary blend of bean and potato proteins" [2].
I eat regular cheese and have tried several vegan brands, this seems pretty close to me. But I'm no cheese connoisseur.
[1] https://www.pleesefoods.com/availabilty
[2] https://www.pleesefoods.com/products
I eat regular cheese and have tried several vegan brands, this seems pretty close to me. But I'm no cheese connoisseur.
[1] https://www.pleesefoods.com/availabilty
[2] https://www.pleesefoods.com/products
We suspected my 2 y/o son had a dairy allergy, so we started buying pizzas with vegan cheese to see if that relieved any of his symptoms. I thought the flavor was horrid, but my son happily devoured the pizza.
Perhaps the best short-term solution is to stop trying to convince people these products are direct replacements. Maybe school lunches for kids that don’t know any better? I have no doubt it’s only a matter of time these companies develop vegan food on par with their meat counterparts, but we need to stop acting like they’ve unlocked the secret formula.
Perhaps the best short-term solution is to stop trying to convince people these products are direct replacements. Maybe school lunches for kids that don’t know any better? I have no doubt it’s only a matter of time these companies develop vegan food on par with their meat counterparts, but we need to stop acting like they’ve unlocked the secret formula.
Indeed good cheese is hard to find as much American cheese has a plasticky texture and bland taste. I've only had success with small dairy farms and stuff imported from Europe. Mount Tam is good.
Have you tried Spero sunflower cream cheese? I would say it is less like a cream cheese exactly and more like a new food on its own (like hummus or guacamole, but neutral and pair-able in taste like cheese or butter). The Goat on some toast with a dollop of jam will kill any cheese pastry envy. It is very good, even special. Vegan food is best when it draws inspiration without exact imitation and Spero really created something unique.
https://sperofoods.co/
https://sperofoods.co/
Yep I eat vegan 80% of the time and I have to agree. For some reason, delicious fake meat is a lot easier to make than delicious fake cheese.
I would say one who says vegan cheese might pass for an alternative to regular cheese has never tasted something that passes as actual cheese [in Switzerland/France].
A lot of cheese you can get on this world has IMHO nothing to do with cheese in terms of taste, texture and the knowledge required to create an actual good cheese.
A lot of cheese you can get on this world has IMHO nothing to do with cheese in terms of taste, texture and the knowledge required to create an actual good cheese.
On the contrary to most of these opinions, there's one vegan shredded cheese out there that makes delicious nachos. I can't recall the brand but it takes just like the gooey nacho cheese of my youth. Probably low-end nacho cheese didn't have any dairy to begin with :)
Nacho cheese is dairy. It's processed cheese so it's made with bits and pieces of real cheese mixed together, and with emulsifiers, colourings and flavourings to cover the fact that you're eating melted cheese scraps.
Another reason for all the additivies is to make nacho cheese melt and run like a thin sauce, in a way that cheese doesn't. But with normal cheese you get other desirable organoleptic qualities that can't be reproduce with additives.
For an example of the organoleptic qualities I'm talking about, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/4CVzqJWkodA?t=834
Look at how elastic the texture of that alpine style cheese is. Slices a few millimitres thick can be rolled into a cigar without breaking. That kind of texture cannot be reproduced artificially. And it can't be reproduced by "vegan" cheesemaking either. You need milk proteins for that and you need milk to be coagulated by rennet enzymes and the enzymes released by starter culture and ripening culture lactic acid bacteria while the cheese ages.
Another reason for all the additivies is to make nacho cheese melt and run like a thin sauce, in a way that cheese doesn't. But with normal cheese you get other desirable organoleptic qualities that can't be reproduce with additives.
For an example of the organoleptic qualities I'm talking about, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/4CVzqJWkodA?t=834
Look at how elastic the texture of that alpine style cheese is. Slices a few millimitres thick can be rolled into a cigar without breaking. That kind of texture cannot be reproduced artificially. And it can't be reproduced by "vegan" cheesemaking either. You need milk proteins for that and you need milk to be coagulated by rennet enzymes and the enzymes released by starter culture and ripening culture lactic acid bacteria while the cheese ages.
I'm tired of this laziness. I don't care about vegan cheese - I am vegan because it's better for me, the planet, and animals. Boohoo if I can't find some cheese that tastes exactly like cultured milk from a suffering animal.
Unfortunately, the number of cheese eaters who'll be swayed by this sort of argument and who aren't already ethically vegan is probably close to zero.
+1
I've been vegan half my life and my recollection of cheese has mostly been replaced by the plant based alternatives. But I still think they've come light years from what we had back in '08.
I think a key to being able to enjoy plant based facsimiles is to not judge it based it on how closely it approximates the dish, but rather how good it is on its own as a cousin.
I've been vegan half my life and my recollection of cheese has mostly been replaced by the plant based alternatives. But I still think they've come light years from what we had back in '08.
I think a key to being able to enjoy plant based facsimiles is to not judge it based it on how closely it approximates the dish, but rather how good it is on its own as a cousin.
Be careful thinking just going vegan is better for the planet.
"The vegan diet is widely regarded to be better for the planet than those that include animal products, but not all plant-based foodstuffs have a small environmental footprint."
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-di...
"The vegan diet is widely regarded to be better for the planet than those that include animal products, but not all plant-based foodstuffs have a small environmental footprint."
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-di...
From your link, asparagus "the largest environmental footprint of any of the 56 vegetables they looked at, including its land use and water use", with 5.3kg of CO2 per kg of Asparagus. According to [0], "The average footprint of beef, excluding methane, is 36 kilograms of CO2eq per kilogram" - so even the worst vegetable imported from the farthest part of the world is 10x better per kg than beef.
Also, I think that article you've shared is pretty clear that going vegan is better, it's just not 0 cost to the planet.
[0] https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-footprint-food-methane [1] https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
Also, I think that article you've shared is pretty clear that going vegan is better, it's just not 0 cost to the planet.
[0] https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-footprint-food-methane [1] https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
They get 5.3 kg CO2eq for asparagus because they are looking at asparagus air shipped from Peru. Of course that's terrible. Don't buy fruits and vegetables shipped via air.
If you buy locally grown asparagus -- where I live, that means around four weeks every year -- it's fine.
Stuff that gets put on a boat is in-between; no idea if that's viable for asparagus, it never occured to me to buy it out of season.
If you buy locally grown asparagus -- where I live, that means around four weeks every year -- it's fine.
Stuff that gets put on a boat is in-between; no idea if that's viable for asparagus, it never occured to me to buy it out of season.
The links I shared have a chart breaking down the co2 cost by land usage, transport, feeding and even the worst vegetables transported the farthest have an order of magnitude less of an impact than local beef.
...conveniently ignoring that beef is 10x as calorically dense as asparagus.
Who the hell eats asparagus for its caloric density? You get plenty of calories from the hollandaise sauce and the potatoes. Given our sedentary lifestyle, low caloric density seems like an advantage, if anything.
We were comparing carbon input to food output, gram for gram. Caloric/nutrient density is completely relevant.
You've thrown that basis out the window by adding additional foods and reframing the argument.
You've thrown that basis out the window by adding additional foods and reframing the argument.
And yet you have merely restated that caloric density is relevant, not explained why it would be. (Nutrient density wasn't your original point.) Asparagus is not grown or eaten for it's calories.
Sweet potato is ~30% the calorie density of beef, and causes 0.01kg co2 per kg according to [0]. I didn't ignore the calorie density,I used the worst case comparison from the article the parent shared, and compared it against the worst case of meat.
[0] https://cigrjournal.org/index.php/Ejounral/article/view/3461
[0] https://cigrjournal.org/index.php/Ejounral/article/view/3461
I’m also all in on the fake veggie meats but have not had a good cheese experience even in vegan restaurants. It’s always some strange bean sludge/mat.
Would love to be proven wrong!
Would love to be proven wrong!
I agree, vegan and vegetarian food is always best when it's not trying to impersonate other food. The best you can hope for is "yeah I can eat this".
I've had vegan yogurt that is better than the alternative.
But cheese? Half the Miyoko's products taste like a finely ground nut paste mixed with mold and spoiled milk.
But cheese? Half the Miyoko's products taste like a finely ground nut paste mixed with mold and spoiled milk.
>I’m not saying it’s all terrible
I'll say it then - it's all terrible. There's so many great vegan foods out there, fake cheese is not one of them.
I'll say it then - it's all terrible. There's so many great vegan foods out there, fake cheese is not one of them.
In Minneapolis, MN the Herbivorous Butcher makes vegan cheeses that are better than normal cheese. Unfortunately they also are expensive.
I bet a huge percentage of vegan cheese sales are first time customers giving it a try. That will drop off real fast.
> Sometimes the aftertaste is terrible, sometimes the texture or versatility.
These are both true of dairy cheeses too.
These are both true of dairy cheeses too.
I think what they're saying is that, unlike real cheese, there's always something wrong with the taste of dairy-free cheese. FWIW my experience has been the same.
What I'm saying is there's always something wrong with the taste of dairy cheese. Although, it's subtle, and you get used to it if you eat it enough.
its not too bad provided you don't try to heat it.
vegan cheese just doesnt have the same fat and sugar properties that normal cheese does.
vegan cheese just doesnt have the same fat and sugar properties that normal cheese does.
I think saying it's "not even close to ready" is way over the top. I've been vegan for two years and was a cheese lover prior to that, and I'm happy with the selection there is for doing things like mac and cheese, pizza, a slice on sandwiches etc.
Is it a perfect stand in? No. Does it serve the purpose? Absolutely
Is it a perfect stand in? No. Does it serve the purpose? Absolutely
There's certainly a trope of "...but I can't give up cheese" and as someone who went from vegetarian to vegan: Yeah, cheese is hard to replicate. But also: your body and tastes adapt.
After a few weeks off of dairy our memories of those old textures and mouth feel start to fade and are replaced. Humans don't like changes in patterns, but at the same time are relatively quick to adapt to new ones.
There's real addiction at play with dairy as well [1]. Those young calfs get the dopamine hit to attract them to their mom's milk. For humans, it fuels our addition to dairy, whose importance as a food group was manufactured because it created another revenue stream after post-war food industrialization [2].
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpellmanrowland/2017/06/2...
[2] https://www.vox.com/2015/4/19/8447883/milk-health-benefit
After a few weeks off of dairy our memories of those old textures and mouth feel start to fade and are replaced. Humans don't like changes in patterns, but at the same time are relatively quick to adapt to new ones.
There's real addiction at play with dairy as well [1]. Those young calfs get the dopamine hit to attract them to their mom's milk. For humans, it fuels our addition to dairy, whose importance as a food group was manufactured because it created another revenue stream after post-war food industrialization [2].
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpellmanrowland/2017/06/2...
[2] https://www.vox.com/2015/4/19/8447883/milk-health-benefit
This is a great point. My evidence is anecdotal but I became a vegetarian about 5 years ago. I used to hate all of the meat substitutes as the tasted "off". Now, after a few years of not eating meat, I could not tell you what chicken or meat would taste like and I have grown fond of some of the alternatives.
We have blood sausages, why wouldn't we drink some animals milk. Humans have been also eating entrails and brains for a long time, so milk is just another ingredient in the omnivorous diet of humans.
You point out the for-profit incentives of dairy industry, but surely you don't think that it is much different for non-dairy/vegan products. Of course they are also pushing for same kind of acceptance at societal level, which means $$$.
You point out the for-profit incentives of dairy industry, but surely you don't think that it is much different for non-dairy/vegan products. Of course they are also pushing for same kind of acceptance at societal level, which means $$$.
> for-profit incentives of dairy industry
The fact that demand for dairy was "manufactured" is somewhat orthogonal to whether or not it is for-profit.
Vegan cheeses aren't subsidized at 73 cents on the dollar, dairy is.
The fact that demand for dairy was "manufactured" is somewhat orthogonal to whether or not it is for-profit.
Vegan cheeses aren't subsidized at 73 cents on the dollar, dairy is.
Ok, I can grant dairy should not be subsidized. It would make it more expensive but that would be fair, and eating cheese would be something a bit more special, as it should.
Yeah, I also got the number wrong - it's 73 cents on the dollar not 40.
Yeah, I've found moving to new foods to be relatively painless if done incrementally. Took just two weeks to convert my toddler son from cow's milk to soy milk (Silk brand, for the curious).
First day, it was 90% / 10% dairy/cow. Second day, it was (eyeballing) 85% / 15% dairy/cow.
You get the idea... Didn't even notice the transition.
First day, it was 90% / 10% dairy/cow. Second day, it was (eyeballing) 85% / 15% dairy/cow.
You get the idea... Didn't even notice the transition.
A note for anyone coming across this: soy milk is nutritionally comparable to cow's milk, but other milk alternative are not. Children who receive much of their nutrition from milk should not transition directly to almond or oat milk without considering other parts of their diet as well.
Just curious, any reason for moving your kid from dairy to soy?
Their kid is probably not a baby cow, for starters.
many kids are baby goats, so there is that
Side-stepping how humans don't need milk after nursing, do you have any concerns with phytoestrogens? The closest thing to a consensus I've found with soy is small to medium amounts are probably fine, but there have been cases of funny things happening with large amounts.
If the importance of dairy was invented after the war, why did humans evolve a tolerance to it?
I don't understand why you need to imitate something that isn't vegan or vegetarian, when you want to eat vegan or vegetarian. There is a metric shitton of vegan and vegetarian dishes from the entire world's cuisines that you could be eating right now insteaed of a substitute for something you've decided never to eat again. Why pretend-eat what you don't want to eat in the first place?
That's just mad. Go eat Indian (meaning food from a dozen different places in and around India, including Bengali, Bangladeshi, etc). Eat a mediterrannean diet. Eat a North African diet. But why do you have to eat something vegan and call it cheese? That just doesn't make sense.
That's just mad. Go eat Indian (meaning food from a dozen different places in and around India, including Bengali, Bangladeshi, etc). Eat a mediterrannean diet. Eat a North African diet. But why do you have to eat something vegan and call it cheese? That just doesn't make sense.
Here's one: because you love cheese but you also love animals and so don't want to contribute to their suffering.
In my experience people tend to become vegan:
1. for the animals; and/or 2. for the planet; and/or 3. for health.
I have never heard another vegan say they became vegan because they didn't like the taste of cheese.
In my experience people tend to become vegan:
1. for the animals; and/or 2. for the planet; and/or 3. for health.
I have never heard another vegan say they became vegan because they didn't like the taste of cheese.
Here is another: you love cheese and are allergic to casein.
Not me, but the gal I am dating is allergic to dairy, and so we had some fun finding vegan cheeses that did not have casein. It was nice to make a dish that typically has cheese, that we both could enjoy.
Not me, but the gal I am dating is allergic to dairy, and so we had some fun finding vegan cheeses that did not have casein. It was nice to make a dish that typically has cheese, that we both could enjoy.
Good point! Vegan cheeses are so much better now than they used to be, there's never been a better time to have a casein allergy :D
Honestly if it weren't for all the amazing fake meats, milks, and cheeses, I would find it a lot harder to be a vegan. As it is though, it's a piece of (vegan) cake :)
Honestly if it weren't for all the amazing fake meats, milks, and cheeses, I would find it a lot harder to be a vegan. As it is though, it's a piece of (vegan) cake :)
Allergic to casein and any animal matter besides? Your friend can't eat meat?
She enjoys meat just fine. It's just milk proteins she is allergic too, and it's not an intolerance.
So she's not vegan then? I thought you meant that your friend is vegan because of her allergies and that you said that to give me an example of another reason to be vegan?
No, she isn't.
And my interpretation of the original question wasn't why someone wants to be vegan, it was why someone would want to eat vegan imitations of non-vegan food.
And my interpretation of the original question wasn't why someone wants to be vegan, it was why someone would want to eat vegan imitations of non-vegan food.
But the spirit of what your doing is flawed. Your essentially saying that the thing was so good you'd like to have it again therefore reminding people that an exploration of animals is good in the sense for human consumption. Regardless if whether or not it comes from animals.
You seem to be suggesting that cheese is inexorably linked to animals. In my mind it's just a tasty substance that goes well in a sandwich. Nowadays it can very well be made without causing animal suffering.
Piano keys were traditionally made of ivory, now, fortunately, they are made of plastic. Does the elephant butchery of the past mean I should not play the piano today? I don't think so.
Times change. When kinder and more sustainable alternatives exist, it makes sense for us to favour them.
Piano keys were traditionally made of ivory, now, fortunately, they are made of plastic. Does the elephant butchery of the past mean I should not play the piano today? I don't think so.
Times change. When kinder and more sustainable alternatives exist, it makes sense for us to favour them.
Animals suffer from predators, parasites, hunger and thirst in the wild.
The only way to end all this suffering is a good nuclear armageddon.
The only way to end all this suffering is a good nuclear armageddon.
Humans suffer from similar things. But I don't think that's a reasonable excuse for us to kill each other.
I have. Rather, the vegan I know didn't like the taste of meat.
But of course what I said had nothing to do with being vegan because you don't like the taste of cheese. What I said was, if you like the taste of meat and cheese so much so that you can't do without a substitute of it, then why are you vegan? If you are vegan, for good ethical or environmental reasons, then why do you need to eat pretend-meat and pretend-dairy? Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.
"I eat it because I like the taste of it" is exactly the moralising accusation levelled at non-vegans. If I have to go without meat and dairy to satisfy your morals then you have to go without pretend-meat and dairy to satisfy mine. You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.
And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.
But of course what I said had nothing to do with being vegan because you don't like the taste of cheese. What I said was, if you like the taste of meat and cheese so much so that you can't do without a substitute of it, then why are you vegan? If you are vegan, for good ethical or environmental reasons, then why do you need to eat pretend-meat and pretend-dairy? Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.
"I eat it because I like the taste of it" is exactly the moralising accusation levelled at non-vegans. If I have to go without meat and dairy to satisfy your morals then you have to go without pretend-meat and dairy to satisfy mine. You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.
And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.
Well I must say that sounds like some peculiar logic to me! But hey, I spent years performing mental gymnastics to justify the suffering I contributed to by eating meat and dairy, so I can see where you are coming from ;)
I used to love steak, and fish, and various other non-vegan things. But I became increasingly uncomfortable with the thought of where those things came from, and eventually I had to give them up. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. Having vegan substitutes just made it easier. I don't see the harm in that, neither do I see the hypocracy. I want the taste, but I don't want the suffering.
I used to love steak, and fish, and various other non-vegan things. But I became increasingly uncomfortable with the thought of where those things came from, and eventually I had to give them up. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. Having vegan substitutes just made it easier. I don't see the harm in that, neither do I see the hypocracy. I want the taste, but I don't want the suffering.
There is no hypocrisy in eating substitute products. The comment you're responding to is all over the place. Vegans can't eat substitute products because it goes against non-vegan's morals? I have no idea how one would arrive at such a place without some major projecting. In any case, the last sentence about people eating MORE meat because I enjoy vegan cheese is just bonkers and kind of sums up nicely what mindset they must be in.
Your assessment is exactly right and most people go vegan for the animals and the planet. You're also exactly right in the mental gymnastics most of us have partaken in before making the switch. It's a meme, but bacon is fucking delicious. I would love to continue eating bacon, but I couldn't keep blocking out the thought that this shouldn't go on like this. And if there is ever vegan bacon that comes close to the real thing, you can bet I'll be on that shit in no time, while simultaneously hoping I won't hurt any meat eaters feelings in the process.
Your assessment is exactly right and most people go vegan for the animals and the planet. You're also exactly right in the mental gymnastics most of us have partaken in before making the switch. It's a meme, but bacon is fucking delicious. I would love to continue eating bacon, but I couldn't keep blocking out the thought that this shouldn't go on like this. And if there is ever vegan bacon that comes close to the real thing, you can bet I'll be on that shit in no time, while simultaneously hoping I won't hurt any meat eaters feelings in the process.
I agree!
I'm not sure where you live but in the UK we have something called This Isn't Bacon that I find rather delicious :)
I'm not sure where you live but in the UK we have something called This Isn't Bacon that I find rather delicious :)
Too bad, I'm from Germany! I appreciate the tip though :) I also love that product's name and how well it fits into the discussion as a whole :D
It is quite amusing in the context I must say :D
In the UK recently we just keep getting more and more new vegan substitutes, and vegan options in restaurants. It's an exciting time!
In the UK recently we just keep getting more and more new vegan substitutes, and vegan options in restaurants. It's an exciting time!
Same here, the variety of products seemingly exploded in the past year. I ordered this dried-peas-paste, which just arrived today, from which you're supposed to be able to make burgers, minced meat, and meat patties that aren't burgers (we call them Frikadelle here). Anyway, I'm excited so I wanted to share :D
Coincidentally 2 days ago I tried something similar for the first time - a pea-based powder that you could make burgers out of. It wasn't as good as Beyond Burgers (my favourite of all the frankenmeats I can get here) but, considering its powdery origin, it was surprisingly good! Hope you enjoy yours! :)
> But hey, I spent years performing mental gymnastics to justify the suffering I contributed to by eating meat and dairy, so I can see where you are coming from ;)
You can't. You have no idea where I come from. I never had to perform any mental gymnastics because I don't believe I contribute to any suffering by eating meat.
For example, maybe you "come from" (to be literal) such a place as North America, Argentina, or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and have no idea how to eat without meat? If so, then I grew up eating half or less the amount of meat you eat, and still do as an adult, I don't eat beef, most of the dairy I eat is not from cows bred in industrial farms, like yours, and I do not have to worry that I'm eating too much meat, or contributing to the destruction of the environment, as you would.
The bottom line is that you have some moral ideology that is yours and matches your life experience, but it doesn't match mine and I don't need to share it. And I don't need to make mental gymnastics to avoid sharing it, I just have no raeson to share it in the first place.
But I do have rasons to wonder why vegans, who don't eat meat and cheese, eat meat and cheese. Unless what they eat is not meat and cheese, in which case why call it meat and cheese?
You can't. You have no idea where I come from. I never had to perform any mental gymnastics because I don't believe I contribute to any suffering by eating meat.
For example, maybe you "come from" (to be literal) such a place as North America, Argentina, or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and have no idea how to eat without meat? If so, then I grew up eating half or less the amount of meat you eat, and still do as an adult, I don't eat beef, most of the dairy I eat is not from cows bred in industrial farms, like yours, and I do not have to worry that I'm eating too much meat, or contributing to the destruction of the environment, as you would.
The bottom line is that you have some moral ideology that is yours and matches your life experience, but it doesn't match mine and I don't need to share it. And I don't need to make mental gymnastics to avoid sharing it, I just have no raeson to share it in the first place.
But I do have rasons to wonder why vegans, who don't eat meat and cheese, eat meat and cheese. Unless what they eat is not meat and cheese, in which case why call it meat and cheese?
So the meat you eat does not come from animals that suffer? They all live happy lives that they are happy to have cut short so they can be slaughtered for your dinner table?
I doubt it.
Curious to find out more about where you might be coming from, I took a look through some of your past comments. One in particular caught my eye:
> "I don't know how people can do that, slaughter an animal they've raised themselves."
To me this suggests that do have compassion for animals. This doesn't surprise me, because virtually everyone does. However, having compassion for animals just doesn't sit nicely with eating them, so we come up with reasons to justify that illogical behaviour of ours. Otherwise we would not be able to live with ourselves.
I am sure you do eat less meat than many people. But I bet that you would eat a lot less again if you had to personally slaughter all the animals you eat. Especially given how easy it is to not eat animals at all.
And in response to your last question, I think it's mainly just because it tastes good. Vegan meats and cheeses could quite reasonably be called something else, and I would still happily eat them. Though having them named as they are does make them more discoverable. I can see why that might make you annoyed if you are in the business of making and selling dairy cheese, and you see the rise of vegan alternatives as a threat to your business.
With all the anger you seem to have towards veganism I sense you may be closer to an awakening that most. Perhaps soon you will be making delicious vegan cheeses yourself :)
I doubt it.
Curious to find out more about where you might be coming from, I took a look through some of your past comments. One in particular caught my eye:
> "I don't know how people can do that, slaughter an animal they've raised themselves."
To me this suggests that do have compassion for animals. This doesn't surprise me, because virtually everyone does. However, having compassion for animals just doesn't sit nicely with eating them, so we come up with reasons to justify that illogical behaviour of ours. Otherwise we would not be able to live with ourselves.
I am sure you do eat less meat than many people. But I bet that you would eat a lot less again if you had to personally slaughter all the animals you eat. Especially given how easy it is to not eat animals at all.
And in response to your last question, I think it's mainly just because it tastes good. Vegan meats and cheeses could quite reasonably be called something else, and I would still happily eat them. Though having them named as they are does make them more discoverable. I can see why that might make you annoyed if you are in the business of making and selling dairy cheese, and you see the rise of vegan alternatives as a threat to your business.
With all the anger you seem to have towards veganism I sense you may be closer to an awakening that most. Perhaps soon you will be making delicious vegan cheeses yourself :)
Honest question, are you really that worked up over the semantics or did you have one too many experiences with vegans of the pushy type?
I personally welcome the recent increase in vegan products and I hope it continues that way. You're still free to skip the vegan isle in the supermarket, fortunately.
I personally welcome the recent increase in vegan products and I hope it continues that way. You're still free to skip the vegan isle in the supermarket, fortunately.
I just complained about making assumptions about my state of mind, and now you're assuming I'm "worked up". Do you think that's OK?
It's a slow Friday and I just read all your comments. In short: Yes. I do think it's okay to make that assumption.
Well, I don't make any assumptions about your state of mind. You should learn to do the same. It will make you a better internet citizen.
I mean, you disagree with me so I must be worked up about what you say? What can I reply to that? There's only one way discussion quality can go after that, and that is down the drain.
Not to mention the casual sexism inherent in that kind of comment to users with clearly feminine identified usernames. "Calm down dear" and all that.
I mean, you disagree with me so I must be worked up about what you say? What can I reply to that? There's only one way discussion quality can go after that, and that is down the drain.
Not to mention the casual sexism inherent in that kind of comment to users with clearly feminine identified usernames. "Calm down dear" and all that.
You just casually put me in a box labelled "fake-vegans" and as far as I can tell I never made any sexist comment, yet your comment reads like I have. Quite bold to start your comment by saying you don't make any assumptions about my state of mind.
In any case, I didn't even state that you were worked up, I honestly wanted to know if the semantics was your only beef (lol). However, I can see how that may have come across as provocative and for that I apologize.
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said and I think you are indeed worked up. Hell, I'm worked up after this nonsensical back and forth. That's my assumption based on the amount of various emotions you put into your comments.
In any case, I didn't even state that you were worked up, I honestly wanted to know if the semantics was your only beef (lol). However, I can see how that may have come across as provocative and for that I apologize.
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said and I think you are indeed worked up. Hell, I'm worked up after this nonsensical back and forth. That's my assumption based on the amount of various emotions you put into your comments.
That's because you're making the wrong assumptions about the "amount of various
emotions I put into my comments".
This logic makes utterly zero sense. It can't be refuted because it is a non-argument.
> Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.
This is some strange version of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Why can you not want to eat meat and dairy and yet be vegan anyway? Why can someone not be vegan for ethical reasons, and yet still miss the taste of cheese? That makes them not a "true" vegan, in some weird definition, but who on earth cares? The person is still not eating cheese. The end result is the same, whether you gatekeep the name "vegan" or not.
> You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.
This is where you've gone off the deep-end. Eating a pretending sausage is not "murder," and whether you like meat or not doesn't suddenly make eating the pretend-sausage "murder." No one's ethics are being violated because someone eats a soy product, unless it's ethics against the eating of soy, which is irrelevant to this discussion.
> And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.
[Citation needed]
> Either you are vegan and you don't want to eat meat or dairy, or you want to eat meat or dairy and you're not vegan.
This is some strange version of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Why can you not want to eat meat and dairy and yet be vegan anyway? Why can someone not be vegan for ethical reasons, and yet still miss the taste of cheese? That makes them not a "true" vegan, in some weird definition, but who on earth cares? The person is still not eating cheese. The end result is the same, whether you gatekeep the name "vegan" or not.
> You can't have it both ways. You can't preach to me that eating meat is murder and then turn your back and scoff down a pretend-sausage because you like meat. That's hypocritical.
This is where you've gone off the deep-end. Eating a pretending sausage is not "murder," and whether you like meat or not doesn't suddenly make eating the pretend-sausage "murder." No one's ethics are being violated because someone eats a soy product, unless it's ethics against the eating of soy, which is irrelevant to this discussion.
> And it only encourages people to eat more meat anyway.
[Citation needed]
Easy! People have lots of different reasons why they may choose not to eat meat or dairy. "Not liking the taste" is one possible reason. If that particular one isn't your reason, then you may still miss the taste/texture of certain foods, so having a substitute helps.
Who said anything about liking or disliking the taste of meat? If you're vegan, you don't want to eat meat, for whatever reason. What sense does it make to then pretend to eat meat anyway?
If you like meat so much you just have to have it, then what sense does it make to be vegan? Be flexitarian. Eat meat once a year, every Easter Sunday. Eat vegentarian. I don't know! But at least accept the fact that you can't stand being vegan because you really want to eat meat and dairy.
For me, anyone who eats pretend-meat or pretend-dairy is a pretend-vegan. If you're going to go off meat to save the planet, or because you think meat is murder, then stick to your own morality and go without anything that is in any way "like" meat. Otherwise, you're just advertising the need to eat meat and justifying everyone else to keep eating it and ignore your pleas for the environment and the baby calves.
If you tell me "I'm vegan, but I have to eat something like cheese", the easiest thing for me to reply is "I'm not vegan and I have to eat cheese". It just makes a joke of the whole idea of being vegan.
If you like meat so much you just have to have it, then what sense does it make to be vegan? Be flexitarian. Eat meat once a year, every Easter Sunday. Eat vegentarian. I don't know! But at least accept the fact that you can't stand being vegan because you really want to eat meat and dairy.
For me, anyone who eats pretend-meat or pretend-dairy is a pretend-vegan. If you're going to go off meat to save the planet, or because you think meat is murder, then stick to your own morality and go without anything that is in any way "like" meat. Otherwise, you're just advertising the need to eat meat and justifying everyone else to keep eating it and ignore your pleas for the environment and the baby calves.
If you tell me "I'm vegan, but I have to eat something like cheese", the easiest thing for me to reply is "I'm not vegan and I have to eat cheese". It just makes a joke of the whole idea of being vegan.
I mean maybe they just like the taste?
I don't really understand it either because I'd usually rather have tasty veggies than imitation meat, but what someone finds tasty is what they find tasty and they don't need to justify it.
I don't really understand it either because I'd usually rather have tasty veggies than imitation meat, but what someone finds tasty is what they find tasty and they don't need to justify it.
You mean maybe they just like the taste of pretend-dairy, not as a reminder of the taste of dairy, but as something new? Then why call it "vegan cheese"? That just smacks of self-deception to me.
> For me, anyone who eats pretend-meat or pretend-dairy is a pretend-vegan.
I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. Eating is not always a single-person activity, so having vegan substitutes for meat and cheese is great when eating together with non-vegans who may be wary of falafels.
There are very few vegans who are vegans because of taste. Many are worried about the environmental impacts of mass animal agriculture killing trillions of animals every year.
The most prominent and outspoken animal liberation advocates — Ali Tabrizi and Ed Winters come to mind — are strong proponents of vegan-dairy, vegan-seafood and vegan-meat. It really doesn't make sense to call those people "pretend vegans". Check their talks and films[0][1], they aren't "making a joke of the whole idea of being vegan".
I don't get why carnists place such importance on real suffering and real death. Is it not real Adidas shoes if it isn't made by slave labour or something? Is it not a real car if it's not guzzling diesel? Why not cut down on causing harm when it's so easy? I don't get it.
[0]: Earthling Ed vs Infowars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScbeMdYkKDc
[1]: Land of Hope and Glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3VOpa3a7c
I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. Eating is not always a single-person activity, so having vegan substitutes for meat and cheese is great when eating together with non-vegans who may be wary of falafels.
There are very few vegans who are vegans because of taste. Many are worried about the environmental impacts of mass animal agriculture killing trillions of animals every year.
The most prominent and outspoken animal liberation advocates — Ali Tabrizi and Ed Winters come to mind — are strong proponents of vegan-dairy, vegan-seafood and vegan-meat. It really doesn't make sense to call those people "pretend vegans". Check their talks and films[0][1], they aren't "making a joke of the whole idea of being vegan".
I don't get why carnists place such importance on real suffering and real death. Is it not real Adidas shoes if it isn't made by slave labour or something? Is it not a real car if it's not guzzling diesel? Why not cut down on causing harm when it's so easy? I don't get it.
[0]: Earthling Ed vs Infowars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScbeMdYkKDc
[1]: Land of Hope and Glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3VOpa3a7c
You're asking me whether I think two big-name vegans who make movies and give
TED talks about veganism are pretend-vegans? For pushing pretend-animal
products? Yes! Yes they are! It's like asking me if the Pope is a
pretend-Christian for pushing pretend-faith and pretend-salvation if you just do what he says. Sure he is!
You want to be like saint in the world and reduce harm? Then don't go baptising nut mush as "cheese" so you can enjoy what you have sworn off and are pontificating against, like the apocryphal stories of Catholic monks baptising their meat "fish" so they could eat it on Wednesday. Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.
You want to be like saint in the world and reduce harm? Then don't go baptising nut mush as "cheese" so you can enjoy what you have sworn off and are pontificating against, like the apocryphal stories of Catholic monks baptising their meat "fish" so they could eat it on Wednesday. Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.
I was vegetarian for a while, and stopped because it turned out I wasn't willing to go without meat. Had really good meat substitutes existed at the time, things might very well have panned out differently, and I'd still be a vegetarian to this day.
Lots of people try and fail to become vegetarians because they don't find the substitutes acceptable. If you consider it a purely personal issue it probably doesn't matter, but if you're interested in lowering global animal product consumption, then I think ideological purity is the more morally questionable position than trying to develop a product that can convince the world to take up veganism.
Lots of people try and fail to become vegetarians because they don't find the substitutes acceptable. If you consider it a purely personal issue it probably doesn't matter, but if you're interested in lowering global animal product consumption, then I think ideological purity is the more morally questionable position than trying to develop a product that can convince the world to take up veganism.
> pretend-vegans [...] For pushing pretend-animal products?
I would agree that people who endorse pretend-vegan products are pretend-vegans. There are many products labelled as "veggie" that still contain egg, such as Quorn.
But your logic fails by assuming pretend-meat = pretend-vegan. You don't kill anyone by playing Doom, just like you don't eat anyone when eating vegan nuggets.
(Yes, there's an argument that violent games can lead to real-life violence, but are you really claiming that vegan meat-substitutes can cause harm by in some cases leading people to eat meat?)
> You want to be like saint [...] Then don't go baptising [...] then come to preach to me about mine.
I find it interesting how religious terms are used as an insult towards vegans. It's a very common and highly irrational defense-mechanism many carnists use when experiencing cognitive dissonance because of all the violence they're willingly and knowingly contributing to while also thinking of themselves as good people.
> Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.
The paradox here is this: The more you stick to your principles as a vegan, the more upset non-vegans can get, while simultaneously demanding that you do stick to your principles, because otherwise you're a hypocrite. I have heard these carnist proverbs before, and unfortunately they defy logic.
For instance, regarding sticking to principles, I choose to not sit at a table where animals are eaten, even if there's also vegan food available. I do this to stop endorsing meat, which is what you're demanding, but no doubt such a stance would upset you as well.
It's challenging to examine one's own beliefs. I've eaten too many animals myself. I hope you have a good day.
I would agree that people who endorse pretend-vegan products are pretend-vegans. There are many products labelled as "veggie" that still contain egg, such as Quorn.
But your logic fails by assuming pretend-meat = pretend-vegan. You don't kill anyone by playing Doom, just like you don't eat anyone when eating vegan nuggets.
(Yes, there's an argument that violent games can lead to real-life violence, but are you really claiming that vegan meat-substitutes can cause harm by in some cases leading people to eat meat?)
> You want to be like saint [...] Then don't go baptising [...] then come to preach to me about mine.
I find it interesting how religious terms are used as an insult towards vegans. It's a very common and highly irrational defense-mechanism many carnists use when experiencing cognitive dissonance because of all the violence they're willingly and knowingly contributing to while also thinking of themselves as good people.
> Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.
The paradox here is this: The more you stick to your principles as a vegan, the more upset non-vegans can get, while simultaneously demanding that you do stick to your principles, because otherwise you're a hypocrite. I have heard these carnist proverbs before, and unfortunately they defy logic.
For instance, regarding sticking to principles, I choose to not sit at a table where animals are eaten, even if there's also vegan food available. I do this to stop endorsing meat, which is what you're demanding, but no doubt such a stance would upset you as well.
It's challenging to examine one's own beliefs. I've eaten too many animals myself. I hope you have a good day.
A lesson I learned early in life is this: just because someone is upset with what you're saying, doesn't mean your 're right, or that they're upset because you're right, or even that they're upset about what you think they are.
For example, what I find annoying in your comment is the casual attribution of thoughts, emotions, morals and life experiences to me that you have no way to know I have. But you go ahead and make the assumption I do anyway and then triumphantly proclaim you defeated my "logic".
For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is.
I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal to eat its meat. I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal violently to eat its meat. Killing another animal requires violence that cannot be reduced to zero. And if you don't know what you're doing, you'll make matters worse because the animal will know what you're trying to do and then it'll try to run away and resist and cry for its mother. I know this very well. I know where my food comes from. I see my food running around when I look outside the window. I don't have any cognitive dissonance to work through.
Maybe you've eaten too many animals. I'm prepared to bet you have, especially if you come from North America or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and don't really know what to do with food unless it has meat in it. I do not come from such a culture and I haven't eaten too many animals.
Finally, I don't know how I'd react if you refused to sit at the same table as me because I'm eating meat. Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why?
You're making too many assumptions about my motives and experiences, when all I've said is that if you are vegan then you should stick to your principles and not eat meat or dairy. Are those not your principles? Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?
For example, what I find annoying in your comment is the casual attribution of thoughts, emotions, morals and life experiences to me that you have no way to know I have. But you go ahead and make the assumption I do anyway and then triumphantly proclaim you defeated my "logic".
For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is.
I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal to eat its meat. I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal violently to eat its meat. Killing another animal requires violence that cannot be reduced to zero. And if you don't know what you're doing, you'll make matters worse because the animal will know what you're trying to do and then it'll try to run away and resist and cry for its mother. I know this very well. I know where my food comes from. I see my food running around when I look outside the window. I don't have any cognitive dissonance to work through.
Maybe you've eaten too many animals. I'm prepared to bet you have, especially if you come from North America or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and don't really know what to do with food unless it has meat in it. I do not come from such a culture and I haven't eaten too many animals.
Finally, I don't know how I'd react if you refused to sit at the same table as me because I'm eating meat. Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why?
You're making too many assumptions about my motives and experiences, when all I've said is that if you are vegan then you should stick to your principles and not eat meat or dairy. Are those not your principles? Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?
> For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is.
"Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )
> you should stick to your principles
You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.
This is additionally double-standards: Criticizing someone who tries to reduce harm for not being perfect (because of this alleged transgression of eating plant burgers, wtf?!), while giving a free pass for those who don't care. Surely it is better to try to reduce suffering and harm than to be indifferent?
> Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?
No. But I'm fine with plant milk and plant burgers, because those are not made out of animals or animal products. I like the taste and, most importantly, it has made vegan eating more accessible for my non-vegan family.
(Actually, I'm not too much into Beyond Meat, because it tastes too much like flesh for my taste, while I love Linda McCartney sausages. But that's just my own taste buds, and I don't worry too much about what tastes other people like.)
"Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )
> you should stick to your principles
You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.
This is additionally double-standards: Criticizing someone who tries to reduce harm for not being perfect (because of this alleged transgression of eating plant burgers, wtf?!), while giving a free pass for those who don't care. Surely it is better to try to reduce suffering and harm than to be indifferent?
> Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?
No. But I'm fine with plant milk and plant burgers, because those are not made out of animals or animal products. I like the taste and, most importantly, it has made vegan eating more accessible for my non-vegan family.
(Actually, I'm not too much into Beyond Meat, because it tastes too much like flesh for my taste, while I love Linda McCartney sausages. But that's just my own taste buds, and I don't worry too much about what tastes other people like.)
> "Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )
Someone made a webpage.
> You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.
Are you measuring me by the principles I don't have? For example, do you think it's wrong for me to eat meat and cheese and any animal products I like, even though I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as you do?
Someone made a webpage.
> You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.
Are you measuring me by the principles I don't have? For example, do you think it's wrong for me to eat meat and cheese and any animal products I like, even though I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as you do?
> Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why?
Because you're really upset about some people substituting cheese with fermented nut butter while still calling it cheese. It's not really too far fetched.
Because you're really upset about some people substituting cheese with fermented nut butter while still calling it cheese. It's not really too far fetched.
You’re attempting to redefine ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever. I can see where a word for that might exist, but what is commonly considered ‘vegan’ is not your definition.
> ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever
Yes? This is what veganism is, is it not? Vegans don't eat animal products at all.
Yes? This is what veganism is, is it not? Vegans don't eat animal products at all.
They can eat animal-like products though, such as Impossible burgers or nut cheese.
Well those can be argued as to not be animal-like at all, but plant-based. Similar to the point cheese_goddess is making here as well.
If vegans can redefine "cheese" then why can't I redefine "vegan"? You're saying that only vegans can distort commonly used terms to promulgate their beliefs? They can sell "vegan" cheese as propaganda for their ideals but I can't just say, well then, you're not vegan because you're eating cheese?
Why not?
Why not?
> I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering.
I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. If you want nut paste to behave in a way that reminds of cheese, you have to stuff it full of gums and emulsifiers and stabilisers and all the additives that go into typical over-processed junk food. Cheese works the way it works because of a confluence of factors that developed over millions of years of evolution of mammals, and the bacteria that live in our guts and help us digest our food, including our mothers' milk. For example, did you know that cheese is made naturally in the stomachs of ruminants? When a young ruminant drinks its mother's milk, that milk ends up in the fourth stomach, the abomasum, where it is fermented by lactic acid bacteria and coagulated by proteolytic enzymes, pepsin and chymosin, and turns into cheese. I'm not sure why that is done so. Obviously the fermentation, that breaks down sugars, and the proteolysis, that breaks down proteins, helps the animal digest its milk, but why coagulate it also? One possible reason is that it helps the animal digest the milk slowly while it runs away from predators.
The same processes are also in effect in the human stomach and while I'm not 100% sure about this, human babies likely also make cheese in their little stomachs.
Bottom line is, cheese has evolved along with mammals over millions of years and there is no other process that we know that can create the same kind of substance. The vegan cheese substitutes we're discussing in this thread don't even come close.
As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables. Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat? In another comment you accuse me of cognitive dissonance, but what is the mental process that allows you to eat cauliflower and call it a steak? To me it sounds like self-dellusion, make-believe.
But even if you really could reproduce the taste of meat and cheese "without the violence and suffering" as you say, then I'd think you just want to have your steak and eat it.
I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. If you want nut paste to behave in a way that reminds of cheese, you have to stuff it full of gums and emulsifiers and stabilisers and all the additives that go into typical over-processed junk food. Cheese works the way it works because of a confluence of factors that developed over millions of years of evolution of mammals, and the bacteria that live in our guts and help us digest our food, including our mothers' milk. For example, did you know that cheese is made naturally in the stomachs of ruminants? When a young ruminant drinks its mother's milk, that milk ends up in the fourth stomach, the abomasum, where it is fermented by lactic acid bacteria and coagulated by proteolytic enzymes, pepsin and chymosin, and turns into cheese. I'm not sure why that is done so. Obviously the fermentation, that breaks down sugars, and the proteolysis, that breaks down proteins, helps the animal digest its milk, but why coagulate it also? One possible reason is that it helps the animal digest the milk slowly while it runs away from predators.
The same processes are also in effect in the human stomach and while I'm not 100% sure about this, human babies likely also make cheese in their little stomachs.
Bottom line is, cheese has evolved along with mammals over millions of years and there is no other process that we know that can create the same kind of substance. The vegan cheese substitutes we're discussing in this thread don't even come close.
As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables. Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat? In another comment you accuse me of cognitive dissonance, but what is the mental process that allows you to eat cauliflower and call it a steak? To me it sounds like self-dellusion, make-believe.
But even if you really could reproduce the taste of meat and cheese "without the violence and suffering" as you say, then I'd think you just want to have your steak and eat it.
> I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way.
Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree.
> As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables.
Yea, exactly. And sometimes mushrooms.
> Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat?
It's a good question. I think it's a bit more complex than pretending to eat meat. For me, personally, it's more about reclaiming certain dishes that we usually consider meat-based but that don't have to be, such as burgers and hotdogs.
For those who've just seen Cowspiracy or Earthlings and start to realize how harmful industrial animal agriculture is but also "can't live without their cheese and their meat", those meat substitutes are perfect. They substitute the taste but not the harm. They can make a zero-effort switch without changing any habits or learning to cook new dishes. It's the best of both worlds.
I love that 7-Eleven has started selling vegan hotdogs here. You get the choice of buying a delicious hotdog without having to worry about eating the body of someone who've been driven around in crowded trucks to then have their brains shot out with a pressure gun or being gassed. To me, it seems like self-delusion to buy the murder-hotdogs when the vegan ones are available.
Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree.
> As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables.
Yea, exactly. And sometimes mushrooms.
> Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat?
It's a good question. I think it's a bit more complex than pretending to eat meat. For me, personally, it's more about reclaiming certain dishes that we usually consider meat-based but that don't have to be, such as burgers and hotdogs.
For those who've just seen Cowspiracy or Earthlings and start to realize how harmful industrial animal agriculture is but also "can't live without their cheese and their meat", those meat substitutes are perfect. They substitute the taste but not the harm. They can make a zero-effort switch without changing any habits or learning to cook new dishes. It's the best of both worlds.
I love that 7-Eleven has started selling vegan hotdogs here. You get the choice of buying a delicious hotdog without having to worry about eating the body of someone who've been driven around in crowded trucks to then have their brains shot out with a pressure gun or being gassed. To me, it seems like self-delusion to buy the murder-hotdogs when the vegan ones are available.
I'm sure you've heard this one a thousand times before and you have the answer ready. I don't know the answer you have ready so I'm curious to hear it:
"Killing animals is not murder. Murder is when a human kills another human".
Go ahead then. Say your thing.
By the way, I think that hotdogs are gross and unhealthy and I wouldn't eat one, meat or no meat. Like I said in my original comment (from which it's true I digressed more than a bit) there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese. I don't understand why some vegans and vegetarians prefer to substitute the meat and dairy they say they don't want to eat anymore with fake versions, rather than learn to cook and enjoy food without meat and animal products. That to me is just lazy and self-deceiving.
"Killing animals is not murder. Murder is when a human kills another human".
Go ahead then. Say your thing.
By the way, I think that hotdogs are gross and unhealthy and I wouldn't eat one, meat or no meat. Like I said in my original comment (from which it's true I digressed more than a bit) there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese. I don't understand why some vegans and vegetarians prefer to substitute the meat and dairy they say they don't want to eat anymore with fake versions, rather than learn to cook and enjoy food without meat and animal products. That to me is just lazy and self-deceiving.
To "murder" is often used in the meaning of to "kill intentionally and with premeditation". Was that not clear from the context?
> there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese.
We agree completely here.
> That to me is just lazy
Again, I agree. However, I think it's good that we're creating opportunities for lazy people to eat vegan too (or people who don't have time to cook, or parents with picky children, or traditionalist family that insist that you can't have Christmas without roast pig, etc.).
> there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese.
We agree completely here.
> That to me is just lazy
Again, I agree. However, I think it's good that we're creating opportunities for lazy people to eat vegan too (or people who don't have time to cook, or parents with picky children, or traditionalist family that insist that you can't have Christmas without roast pig, etc.).
>> To "murder" is often used in the meaning of to "kill intentionally and with premeditation". Was that not clear from the context?
The context was that killing a non-human animal is murder. Murder is when a human kills another human. When a human kills a non-human animal it's just a "killing".
The context was that killing a non-human animal is murder. Murder is when a human kills another human. When a human kills a non-human animal it's just a "killing".
Flying Pie Pizza in Issaquah WA makes incredible pizzas, and last I had it, they offered vegan cheese as an option.
I've had a slice of their vegan pizza and it's quite awesome.
I've had a slice of their vegan pizza and it's quite awesome.
I would eat cheese if I wasn't lactose intolerant! These vegan cheeses aren't perfect but they work well enough for some things!
Just before the pandemic, I was thinking about how cheese was made from milk and how soy milk could (with the right extras) be a pretty decent milk substitute, and wondered if you could make a cheese alternative by applying the milk-to-cheese process to soy milk.
Then I realised this already exists and is called “tofu”.
The smoked tofu I find around Berlin is pretty good even cold, tastes similar to some smoked hard cheeses, and works in sandwiches. I’ve not even considered trying it on pizza though.
Then I realised this already exists and is called “tofu”.
The smoked tofu I find around Berlin is pretty good even cold, tastes similar to some smoked hard cheeses, and works in sandwiches. I’ve not even considered trying it on pizza though.
Rügenwalder Mühle makes vegetarian/vegan cheeses in Germany that are quite good when eaten cold, but probably don't melt well.
I generally prefer cheese cold or at room temperature anyways, and I wish I could get Rügenwalder Mühle in the US, but it seems like they don't export.
https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte
I generally prefer cheese cold or at room temperature anyways, and I wish I could get Rügenwalder Mühle in the US, but it seems like they don't export.
https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte
I really like their vegetarian stuff, but their vegan stuff doesn’t work so well for me.
The closest brand in the U.K. (and, I think, the USA) is Quorn, which I’ve missed since moving here.
The closest brand in the U.K. (and, I think, the USA) is Quorn, which I’ve missed since moving here.
Quorn doesn't make cheese as far as I've seen though.
Quorn products are vegetarian, but many are not vegan - many of them have eggs, milk, and cheese in them.
Smoked tofu is good- I wish there were more smoked veggie meats and cheeses. Definitely not something I’d want on a pizza in lieu of mozzarella though
I think that's because it's got the wrong melting profile. Cashew cheese with either gelatin (if you're okay with that) or tapioca starch compares a lot better. And once it sets you can smoke it too!
I really like Miyokos “artisan vegan cheese, smoked English farmhouse.” It comes as a little round. Ingredients list is all recognizable names, too. Does not even attempt to melt though. It’ll kind of crisp up.
Pro tip when it comes to pasta / pizza.
Forget about vegan cheeses on pizza/pasta. They taste crap.
What tastes really good is ground nuts. I sprinkle a mixture of ground pine nuts, cashew nuts, and tiny bit of pecan, (-/+ possibly some macademia nuts) and it tastes great. When ground properly in the right proportions, this mixture also has that nice fluffy, "cheesy" feel to it (i.e. it's not rough to the touch, it's soft and spreadable).
Different experience from actual cheese, but very tasty. Whereas whenever I've tried vegan cheese on pizza/pasta, they always leave an ugly aftertaste, have a disgusting texture and stick to my teeth and throat, and leave me bloated and feeling like crap afterwards.
Forget about vegan cheeses on pizza/pasta. They taste crap.
What tastes really good is ground nuts. I sprinkle a mixture of ground pine nuts, cashew nuts, and tiny bit of pecan, (-/+ possibly some macademia nuts) and it tastes great. When ground properly in the right proportions, this mixture also has that nice fluffy, "cheesy" feel to it (i.e. it's not rough to the touch, it's soft and spreadable).
Different experience from actual cheese, but very tasty. Whereas whenever I've tried vegan cheese on pizza/pasta, they always leave an ugly aftertaste, have a disgusting texture and stick to my teeth and throat, and leave me bloated and feeling like crap afterwards.
This is what I'm more interested in: Don't try to replace animal foods directly, create great plant based foods. I'm not vegan or even vegetarian, but I am interested in reducing my animal consumption.
I mean, ground nuts are a classic "replacement" for cheese, so I don't really see how this is at all different from what the vegan cheeses are doing.
Presumably the person you replied to means they'd prefer healthy plant-based flavours that shine as flavours in their own right, rather than synthetic imitation foodstuffs that just happen to be vegan-compatible.
I don't know where the line between "healthy plant-based flavours" and "synthetic imitation foodstuffs" starts and stops is I guess my difficiulty.
Most vegan cheeses I have are just fermented ground up nuts or soy.
Most vegan cheeses I have are just fermented ground up nuts or soy.
I couldn't agree more. Cheeseless pizza is also a lot more fresh in my opinion. It's more like a flat focaccia with more toppings, in my case hiding under a mountain of arugula.
Thanks for the tip. When you say grind, do you mean like put it through a food processor?
Actually, sorry, I should have said 'grated' instead of 'ground'.
When I do it, I actually use a rotary cheesegrater in the finest setting (i.e. something like this: www.thebakerskitchen.net/images/products/detail/811642026798.jpg). This makes the nuts come out soft and flakey.
But, yes, presumably a food processor should be ok too.
When I do it, I actually use a rotary cheesegrater in the finest setting (i.e. something like this: www.thebakerskitchen.net/images/products/detail/811642026798.jpg). This makes the nuts come out soft and flakey.
But, yes, presumably a food processor should be ok too.
There are some cashew-based queso dips that are pretty darn tasty. Although, it's a bit easier for vegan to compete in that context since "real" queso dips are the whey stuff not cheese, per se.
Edit: to be clear, I'm commenting as a tangent to the ground nut suggestion. I'm not suggesting anyone put queso on pizza, unless that sounds good to you :)
Edit: to be clear, I'm commenting as a tangent to the ground nut suggestion. I'm not suggesting anyone put queso on pizza, unless that sounds good to you :)
I have dairy allergy and all I can say is that I am so happy that these products are getting better and better.
Where I live (Europe) there are a lot of different ones available and quite a few are on the level of a cheap normal cheese.
But in the end: at least it’s something.
But in the end: at least it’s something.
Same. For me, dairy increase respiratory mucus production which makes me feel a little congested and increases the frequency amd severity of upper respiratory tract infections.
It also hurts my digestive system.
Both are subtle initially and ramp up with continued dairy consumption, so I can tolerate small infrequent amounts.
I suspect many more people have similar issues but don't realise.
It also hurts my digestive system.
Both are subtle initially and ramp up with continued dairy consumption, so I can tolerate small infrequent amounts.
I suspect many more people have similar issues but don't realise.
Yeah I have exactly this. I tolerate small amounts but I avoid it on a daily basis. And I do love cheese but ain’t worth it. Lactose-free (aka adding lactase) helps sligthly but it seems it’s not the only thing causing trouble to me. All in all, we’re lucky we have alternatives.
Me three. I used to get colds that would regularly ripen into sinus and ear infections, and I haven't experience a single such infection in several years since switching to about 95% plant-based eating.
There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle, resulting in the development of more and more advanced food processing technologies designed to synthesize the experience of foods being excluded from the diet.
Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed.
That's not meant to be a criticism! In my mind it's just a bit of a surprising outcome and makes me wonder how folks who consume these products square that circle in their minds.
Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed.
That's not meant to be a criticism! In my mind it's just a bit of a surprising outcome and makes me wonder how folks who consume these products square that circle in their minds.
> There's something unexpected about this aspect of veganism, which is often embraced by those wanting to lead a healthier lifestyle ...
I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both.
That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect!
That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.
I'm not sure what you base this statement on. There are many people whose initial motivations for going vegan were ethical, either to avoid funding animal abuse, environmental degradation, or both.
That was why I went vegan 23.5 years ago, and why I'm still vegan. I eat mock meat and non-dairy cheese because these taste like foods I liked before I went vegan. I didn't stop eating meat and cheese because I thought it tasted bad! I loved it, but I hate what went into its production. Now I can have the foods I like without the negative externalities. That's perfect!
That said, my palette has expanded hugely since I first went vegetarian, and I also enjoy all sorts of things I used to really dislike, including more whole foods type dishes, and even raw food.
I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent. Of course, believing that and shopping ethically requires a great deal more selectivity and research (and willingness to pay more for food whose provenance can be trusted).
Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.
Not to pick a fight, but I don't get the basic argument that 'all animal husbandry = unnatural exploitation' given the symbiosis between species like ants and aphids etc. which I can just go and observe in my yard at this time of year.
Abuse is only one among several other arguments presented for ethical vegetarianism. For example see https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/bts/vol19/iss1/1/
But I'm not questioning ethical vegetarianism, I'm talking about veganism's opposition to any kind of dairy farming over and above that.
Oh I see. The linked paper uses vegetarianism in a wider sense that covers that too.
Using an example of something that exists in nature like aphids/ants to justify human behavior is a fundamentally flawed argument because quite simply: ants aren't humans, we're quite a bit more sophisticated and have far more reach/impact which comes with greater responsibility and consequences.
Putting that aside for the moment because it is a rabbit hole, there is a continuum of what people think constitutes animal abuse.
One the worst side of the spectrum (IMHO), are CAFOs: Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. These are the first things you read about when you research animal cruelty. They're the videos of hundreds of thousands of cows standing kneed deep in their shit their whole lives and pumped full of antibiotics. And yet, some people look at this and go, "Yeah, I'm cool with that."
On the other side of the spectrum, we have vegans who do not use any products derived from animals.
In between we see efforts to mitigate the cruelty, such as: free range vs. constricted cages where movement is impossible; feeding them diets of foods they would find in nature (instead of feeding cows ground up chickens); not forcing them to grow so much meat they cannot move (chicken breasts; growth hormones in cows); not forcing them to produce so much milk their udders tear and become infected so they are injected with antibiotics, etc.
For example, there is a cattle farm 10 miles from my house that has about 20 head of cattle, and you can purchase one as part of a co-op a year in advance. You can go visit the cow. You can see how it is raised and its conditions. This makes me feel a lot better than buying plastic-wrapped package from a Save-Rite supermarket. But that's me: some people might laugh at me for being "fancy pants liberal simp" other's think I'm still keeping animals from doing what they would do in nature if we weren't harvesting them.
My point is: this is not an easy answer, and in my opinion how we treat animals that we capture and cage matters. Why? Since reason is a social construct, I can go deeper if you push, but it is my choice to not make animals suffer more than they have to.
Putting that aside for the moment because it is a rabbit hole, there is a continuum of what people think constitutes animal abuse.
One the worst side of the spectrum (IMHO), are CAFOs: Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations. These are the first things you read about when you research animal cruelty. They're the videos of hundreds of thousands of cows standing kneed deep in their shit their whole lives and pumped full of antibiotics. And yet, some people look at this and go, "Yeah, I'm cool with that."
On the other side of the spectrum, we have vegans who do not use any products derived from animals.
In between we see efforts to mitigate the cruelty, such as: free range vs. constricted cages where movement is impossible; feeding them diets of foods they would find in nature (instead of feeding cows ground up chickens); not forcing them to grow so much meat they cannot move (chicken breasts; growth hormones in cows); not forcing them to produce so much milk their udders tear and become infected so they are injected with antibiotics, etc.
For example, there is a cattle farm 10 miles from my house that has about 20 head of cattle, and you can purchase one as part of a co-op a year in advance. You can go visit the cow. You can see how it is raised and its conditions. This makes me feel a lot better than buying plastic-wrapped package from a Save-Rite supermarket. But that's me: some people might laugh at me for being "fancy pants liberal simp" other's think I'm still keeping animals from doing what they would do in nature if we weren't harvesting them.
My point is: this is not an easy answer, and in my opinion how we treat animals that we capture and cage matters. Why? Since reason is a social construct, I can go deeper if you push, but it is my choice to not make animals suffer more than they have to.
I've not really encountered the idea that it's unnatural exploitation, to be honest, and I completely agree with your point there. The core ethical argument that I generally see presented for veganism is that once you've advanced past the point of requiring animal products to live a healthy life, consuming them becomes entirely a matter of convenience, taste, and preference. The argument follows, then, that it may not be ethical to subject animals to the realities of modern husbandry simply on account of these reasons.
The question of whether abuse is inherent is largely academic at this point. The fact of the matter is that almost all of the animal products we consume are the result of optimized industrial processes that result in shortened, low-quality lives for those put through them. Whether an animal could, under the right circumstances, be humanely raised for resource extraction or slaughter doesn't really apply in modern consumption.
The question of whether abuse is inherent is largely academic at this point. The fact of the matter is that almost all of the animal products we consume are the result of optimized industrial processes that result in shortened, low-quality lives for those put through them. Whether an animal could, under the right circumstances, be humanely raised for resource extraction or slaughter doesn't really apply in modern consumption.
> I totally get ethical vegetarianism, and appreciate that much animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent.
It's inherent. Cows, like all mammals, need to have given birth to produce milk. This means dairy cows are impregnated and give birth roughly yearly. It's entirely uneconomical to raise all of the calves, since it would effectively triple or more the cost of producing milk, which is already barely profitable, even with government subsidies. So the calves are killed and sold as veal.
It's inherent. Cows, like all mammals, need to have given birth to produce milk. This means dairy cows are impregnated and give birth roughly yearly. It's entirely uneconomical to raise all of the calves, since it would effectively triple or more the cost of producing milk, which is already barely profitable, even with government subsidies. So the calves are killed and sold as veal.
>...all mammals, need to have given birth to produce milk.
Wrong. Humans don't need to be pregnant or give birth to produce milk. Lactation can happen with medication or stimulation, which becomes easier as women age. If a woman is not inducing lactation with hormones, she must stimulate the breasts several times a day using hand compression or a breast pump. This is how adoptive and foster mothers breastfeed their babies. Lactation can also occur in men because they have milk glands, which is the reason they too can get breast cancer.
Wrong. Humans don't need to be pregnant or give birth to produce milk. Lactation can happen with medication or stimulation, which becomes easier as women age. If a woman is not inducing lactation with hormones, she must stimulate the breasts several times a day using hand compression or a breast pump. This is how adoptive and foster mothers breastfeed their babies. Lactation can also occur in men because they have milk glands, which is the reason they too can get breast cancer.
How, then, do you consider forcing medication or stimulation on a sentient being, without their consent? Obviously if this took place with a human, it’d violate several kinds of rights.
Now extend that train of thought towards other beings.
Now extend that train of thought towards other beings.
Where in my reply did I mention forcing lactation on people? That is right, nowhere.
Perhaps you need some remedial reading comprehension.
Perhaps you need some remedial reading comprehension.
Perhaps... but I was talking about cows.
Where in my reply did I mention forcing lactation on cows? My comments were directed at the statement that all mammals need to give birth to lactate, which is incorrect.
If you are having difficulty ascertaining this point, you definitely need remedial reading comprehension.
If you are having difficulty ascertaining this point, you definitely need remedial reading comprehension.
boston_clone(1)
That's an interesting aside about humans; I didn't know. I think the simplification is justifiable for the explanation in this case, though.
Not a vegan or vegetarian but it's very hard to get past this point. It's definitely insane that we have to impregnate cows over and over to keep them producing milk.
> animal abuse can occur within the dairy industry, but I don't think that's inherent
There is no economical way to do it otherwise. I honestly don't care that much about animal abuse (I do think that animal agriculture is often environmentally unsustainable), but you can't really play pretend about "some milk not involving abuse"
There is no economical way to do it otherwise. I honestly don't care that much about animal abuse (I do think that animal agriculture is often environmentally unsustainable), but you can't really play pretend about "some milk not involving abuse"
In the very next sentence I observed that purchasing dairy without supporting abuse involves paying more in both time and money.
From where can you purchase such dairy, I would love a source.
Milk production involves separating calves from their mothers on a yearly basis. Most are slaughtered shortly after, their stomach lining is taken as it contains an enzyme used for cheese production.
Personally, I am fine with it as long as no extra, unnecessary suffering is caused, but some activists may call it inherent animal abuse.
Personally, I am fine with it as long as no extra, unnecessary suffering is caused, but some activists may call it inherent animal abuse.
That's why I said "often embraced", not "always embraced". :)
I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice.
However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.
I certainly am not so arrogant as to believe I understand why each and every person eating a vegan diet has made that choice.
However, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to claim that a non-trivial number of people make the switch for health reasons, and that these plant-based substitutes are marketed based on claimed health benefits.
Sure, plenty have done it for health reasons, but your comment implied that it was the majority reason. Maybe it is, but I don't know of any good statistics on this.
As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.
As to whether the plant-based substitutes are healthier, they probably are when compared to the thing they're replacing in nearly all cases. But if you want to optimize your health I'd expect a plant-based diet based on less processed foods would be much better.
There is a wing of the ethical-vegan community who disapprove of meat substitutes, arguing that we will never truly do justice to our animal brothers and sisters until we have lost the very appetite for their flesh. So, it is not just those who eat vegan out of health concerns, who are concerned about meat substitutes.
Whoa, I'm an ethical vegan and pretty steeped in theory, and I've never encountered this wing before. I doubt I'll agree with them, but I'd be curious to read if you have anything you can link or cite.
Cheese is a 'processed' food. It's a long article, so I'm not surprised that nearly no-one in the comments has read it, but it goes into a lot of detail about the many small home-made cheese shops that are springing up with processes that more or less match that of the artisanal cheese making process.
> A nut is soaked and then blended with water to create a milk base, to which a culture is added. The cultured milk is left to ferment, forming a curd. After the curd is drained through a cheesecloth, it is molded into whatever shape the cheesemaker desires.
> A nut is soaked and then blended with water to create a milk base, to which a culture is added. The cultured milk is left to ferment, forming a curd. After the curd is drained through a cheesecloth, it is molded into whatever shape the cheesemaker desires.
This is something I've noticed as well. Sometimes ingredient lists are a mile long. Less so here in Europe than what I've seen in America, but nevertheless it is shockingly less natural. I have always though that it makes more sense to just create vegan foods from what you have rather than recreating the things you are choosing not to eat.
Warning though, I am not a part of the vegan club, so it is all just opinion.
Warning though, I am not a part of the vegan club, so it is all just opinion.
To some extent, it's an attempt to partake in the wider food culture while still following stricter ethical guidelines than those food cultures developed in.
Most of the vegans I know can nutrition themselves capably using non-imitation food, but still want to be able to have a pizza on occasion.
As much as some in the hackerverse like to pretend it doesn't, eating is both an emotional and an expressive experience for some people. Expecting everyone to be a rational actor in the food world is approximately as reasonable as expecting them to be rational actors in the dating world.
Most of the vegans I know can nutrition themselves capably using non-imitation food, but still want to be able to have a pizza on occasion.
As much as some in the hackerverse like to pretend it doesn't, eating is both an emotional and an expressive experience for some people. Expecting everyone to be a rational actor in the food world is approximately as reasonable as expecting them to be rational actors in the dating world.
I'm vegan but I do agree. However, myself and other vegans I know do only use these alternatives on occasion. They're definitely not a part of our daily diet. I probably have vegan cheese once a month at most.
Being vegan is a big change, and I ate meat for 29 years, so sometimes my body wants something non-vegan and it's nice to know alternatives exist.
I never really went vegan to be 'more' healthy anyway, so I eat similar to how I did before.
Being vegan is a big change, and I ate meat for 29 years, so sometimes my body wants something non-vegan and it's nice to know alternatives exist.
I never really went vegan to be 'more' healthy anyway, so I eat similar to how I did before.
The ingredient list of an apple is also miles long if you are forced to write it out, you just aren't.
There are a million different things "processing" can mean. It can be as innocuous as just chopping something up, or complicated like pickling. Not all of it is bad.
There are a million different things "processing" can mean. It can be as innocuous as just chopping something up, or complicated like pickling. Not all of it is bad.
Certainly true.
But, as an example, the Impossible Burger notably has more fat and significantly more salt than its meat-based brethren. Sure, it may be purchased due to a perceived variety of other benefits (sustainability, animal rights, etc) totally unrelated to the healthiness of the product, but it's objectively not a healthier option.
But, as an example, the Impossible Burger notably has more fat and significantly more salt than its meat-based brethren. Sure, it may be purchased due to a perceived variety of other benefits (sustainability, animal rights, etc) totally unrelated to the healthiness of the product, but it's objectively not a healthier option.
>objectively not a healthier option.
I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a whole lot more to "healthiness" than amount of fat and salt.
I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a whole lot more to "healthiness" than amount of fat and salt.
The Impossible Burger has about 12% fat which is quite lean. As far as I understand, the meat in most burgers is around 20% fat. Adding things like breadcrumbs, eggs or onions to the patties will of course change the amount.
> The Impossible Burger has about 12% fat which is quite lean. As far as I understand, the meat in most burgers is around 20% fat.
Depends on the beef. I looked the numbers up before I commented, and a simple beef burger made with lean ground beef weighs in at 11% fat, slightly less than the Impossible version (though yup, I admit, basically equivalent, which is what I should've said).
Depends on the beef. I looked the numbers up before I commented, and a simple beef burger made with lean ground beef weighs in at 11% fat, slightly less than the Impossible version (though yup, I admit, basically equivalent, which is what I should've said).
Though I have no evidence to back it up, I get the impression that the popular justification for new adherents to veganism has shifted from ethical to health. Its original definition certainly points to the ethical concern:
> Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Only by extension might there be a benefit to humans.
However, I think there is a parallel misconception that vegan implies healthy. This is absolutely not always the case! I do see rational health advocates more often use the phrase Whole Food Plant Based, to denote both a non-junk-food vegan diet, and a relaxation of the rule to always dispense with animal products, especially non-food products.
> Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Only by extension might there be a benefit to humans.
However, I think there is a parallel misconception that vegan implies healthy. This is absolutely not always the case! I do see rational health advocates more often use the phrase Whole Food Plant Based, to denote both a non-junk-food vegan diet, and a relaxation of the rule to always dispense with animal products, especially non-food products.
As with anything, all people have different priorities. Some people prioritize taste in their food. Some health. Some ethics. Though usually it’s some combination of many different priorities. Indeed there are different types of Vegans as well, who don’t like to eat processed foods.
I’d guess that most people would prefer to eat less pre-processed food. But most people are all too busy and stressed that they don’t have time to grow their own crops, process our their food, cook meals by hand, AND make lots of money working a full time job selling insurance or whatever. And of course, much of this preprocessing makes food deliberately tastier and store longer, so there are clear benefits. So I’d guess most people are just balancing their food priorities among their needs to, say, interact in society and eat a living while staying full and healthy.
Disclaimer: I am not a vegan
I’d guess that most people would prefer to eat less pre-processed food. But most people are all too busy and stressed that they don’t have time to grow their own crops, process our their food, cook meals by hand, AND make lots of money working a full time job selling insurance or whatever. And of course, much of this preprocessing makes food deliberately tastier and store longer, so there are clear benefits. So I’d guess most people are just balancing their food priorities among their needs to, say, interact in society and eat a living while staying full and healthy.
Disclaimer: I am not a vegan
I don't think "natural" is not a very good metric or goal to begin with.
Is cheese made from milk natural? I think people only believe that because cheese has been around forever, so they consider it being "normal", while they consider the vegan cheese alternatives "unusual".
Cheese is both a pretty processed product and not particularly healthy.
It's true that there's some relation between "unprocessed" and "healthy" (eat lots of veggies and fruit), but neither cheese from milk nor from plants fits that category. Also that isn't a fundamental law, it's more a "rough guidance". There's no fundamental reason a plant-based product can't be as healthy or healthier as a similar animal-based product.
Is cheese made from milk natural? I think people only believe that because cheese has been around forever, so they consider it being "normal", while they consider the vegan cheese alternatives "unusual".
Cheese is both a pretty processed product and not particularly healthy.
It's true that there's some relation between "unprocessed" and "healthy" (eat lots of veggies and fruit), but neither cheese from milk nor from plants fits that category. Also that isn't a fundamental law, it's more a "rough guidance". There's no fundamental reason a plant-based product can't be as healthy or healthier as a similar animal-based product.
I'd love for vegetable products to be processed skillfully enough that I wouldn't miss animal products. It's not the amount of processing that bothers me, it's the types of processing (and the types of additives.) Processed foods are on average terrible, but any particular heavily processed food might be wonderful for you.
This is almost the most important technology being developed right now IMO. Meat is killing us through environmental degradation and disease jumps from domesticated animals to humans. When I hear a "horror story" in the news cycle about there being no meat in a Taco Bell taco or somesuch, I'm like "if only."
This is almost the most important technology being developed right now IMO. Meat is killing us through environmental degradation and disease jumps from domesticated animals to humans. When I hear a "horror story" in the news cycle about there being no meat in a Taco Bell taco or somesuch, I'm like "if only."
In my experience, the vast majority of people go vegan out of concern for animals, and not primarily because they want to be more healthy.
Doing a quick search seems to support that, but perhaps the trends / reasons are changing as veganism in general becomes more mainstream.
https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...
https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...
Doing a quick search seems to support that, but perhaps the trends / reasons are changing as veganism in general becomes more mainstream.
https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...
https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go-vegan-2019-gl...
Note that the The China Study book a few years ago (and its accompanying cookbooks) brought some people to adopt a solely plant-based diet, but without necessarily referring to themselves as "vegans". Of course, people following such movements may still be a minority of all plant-based-diet eaters, but they are out there if you search beyond fora calling themselves specifically vegan fora.
It's basically abusing the single metric. You can put "Vegan" on your label if you follow very specific rules and anything outside of those rules is far game. The folks that consume these products have mostly that label and marketing to go by.
It's like orange juice advertised as "not from concentrate" which goes through a massive amount of processing just to satisfy that labeling even though it's unlikely any folks consuming the product really want that.
It's like orange juice advertised as "not from concentrate" which goes through a massive amount of processing just to satisfy that labeling even though it's unlikely any folks consuming the product really want that.
> Basically, in the quest to return to a more healthy, natural diet, some folks end up moving to foods that are more and more processed.
Is less processing always more healthy? It's often touted as such but adding some processing can unlock nutrients vs eating raw, right?
Spinach for example, when eaten raw, has less bioavailable iron than if it were "processed" by steaming.
Is less processing always more healthy? It's often touted as such but adding some processing can unlock nutrients vs eating raw, right?
Spinach for example, when eaten raw, has less bioavailable iron than if it were "processed" by steaming.
There's a difference between what the parent means by "processing" and simply cooking.
A related question I always had is why many vegan people are pushing so hard for a substitute product just to simulate the flavor of flesh —- many Asian food like Tofu are vegan and natural. Why not embracing and inventing more types of naturally plant based recipes rather than pushing for fake meat?
The justification is that they are temporary/bridging foods while transitioning to a whole foods diet.
There is not much evidence of this working among vegan influencers (who fill their videos with meat and dairy mimicking meals) but that could be distorted by most product placements being such foods.
There is not much evidence of this working among vegan influencers (who fill their videos with meat and dairy mimicking meals) but that could be distorted by most product placements being such foods.
I wonder about that claim.
I've never seen the Impossible Burger, for example, pitched as a bridging mechanism. It seems to be purely about food substitution with no expectation that someone would phase that substitute out as they adapt to a plant-based diet.
I feel like the pitch is "hey look, you can be vegan/vegetarian and not miss the meat-based foods you love so much!" i.e., you can have your vegetarian cake and eat it, too.
But that then gets back to, why switch at all? If it's about ethics, these products make sense. If it's about health, it makes a lot less sense to me.
I've never seen the Impossible Burger, for example, pitched as a bridging mechanism. It seems to be purely about food substitution with no expectation that someone would phase that substitute out as they adapt to a plant-based diet.
I feel like the pitch is "hey look, you can be vegan/vegetarian and not miss the meat-based foods you love so much!" i.e., you can have your vegetarian cake and eat it, too.
But that then gets back to, why switch at all? If it's about ethics, these products make sense. If it's about health, it makes a lot less sense to me.
If you haven’t seen the Impossible Burger episode of South Park yet I think you’d enjoy it.
I eat them because dairy cheese triggers my autoimmune condition. They are a god send tbh
Yea I don't really get the whole 'health food tech' industry. When I want to feel good or lose weight: Chicken breast, vegetables, water, nuts, rice. It's the same old story, people want to be healthy and diet without actually doing any of that or give up the idea that every meal is supposed to be a treat.
I had some bad experiences early on with vegan cheese substitutes, so I wrote them off years ago.
Recently I was eating my "standard" sandwich order from a local restaurant. It actually tasted so much better than normal that I asked if they had changed anything, only to find out that they had used their vegan cheese substitute by mistake.
I'll be giving these cheese substitutes another shot in the future!
Recently I was eating my "standard" sandwich order from a local restaurant. It actually tasted so much better than normal that I asked if they had changed anything, only to find out that they had used their vegan cheese substitute by mistake.
I'll be giving these cheese substitutes another shot in the future!
I can't help suspecting this says something about the quality of cheese your local place uses.
Or their preference?
Leaving aside for a moment the morality of eating meat and dairy - is there actually any (health) benefit to the heavily (and I mean heavily) processed dairy alternatives compared to just eating regular cheese?
I'm vegan, and probably not. I've heard that most vegan substitutes are processed heavily so not really more healthy (and probably less healthy than non-vegan options).
However, I do still eat them on occasion. Sometimes after a 30km run, all I think about is burgers so when I get home and sit and have vegan burger with vegan cheese.
It may not be as good as the 'real thing' but it hits the spot :)
However, I do still eat them on occasion. Sometimes after a 30km run, all I think about is burgers so when I get home and sit and have vegan burger with vegan cheese.
It may not be as good as the 'real thing' but it hits the spot :)
After 2 years or so of eating vegetarian I don't think that meat burgers are actually better. First of all, a burger is all about toppings and condiments. And vegetarian patties have come such a long way, texture and flavor wise, it blows my mind. Compared to the boring and ever the same taste of meat it doesn't even come close for me.
Agreed. I've accidentally gotten a few beef burgers since I stopped intentionally eating meat, and at this point I prefer impossible burgers over beef. I still haven't found a sufficiently satisfying ham (always just tastes like bologna) or breakfast sausage (too dry) yet though.
This is also true for buffalo wings. They aren't actually good, they are just a vehicle for buffalo sauce. Fried cauliflower with buffalo sauce is just as good if not better than wings.
My standard workday lunch used to be a chicken salad sandwich with all the toppings. When I replaced that with a mushroom melt I realized I didn't actually care that much about the chicken itself.
A lot of the meat I was consuming was just a matter of treating meat as the default option, not because it was actually adding significant value. That style of eating comprised at least 75%-90% of my meat consumption, and cutting that out turned out to be extremely easy.
The last 10%-25% has been much harder though, especially when my wife and most of my friends like eating meat so much.
A lot of the meat I was consuming was just a matter of treating meat as the default option, not because it was actually adding significant value. That style of eating comprised at least 75%-90% of my meat consumption, and cutting that out turned out to be extremely easy.
The last 10%-25% has been much harder though, especially when my wife and most of my friends like eating meat so much.
Milk has quite a bit of sugar, many of the milk replacements are higher in protein and lower in sugar, or have different macronutrient profiles.
Also, I like the flavor and mouthfeel of things like oatmilk.
I'm also not convinced that milk is not a 'heavily processed' commodity. You are just using a pregnant cow to do a lot of the processing.
Also, I like the flavor and mouthfeel of things like oatmilk.
I'm also not convinced that milk is not a 'heavily processed' commodity. You are just using a pregnant cow to do a lot of the processing.
> Milk has quite a bit of sugar
Sugar content without regard to glycemic index [0] is meaningless. Cow milk contains lactose, which has a very low glycemic index. Most milk replacements use maltose, which has almost double the glycemic load, making them significantly less healthy than actual milk (since they are all basically sugar and canola oil [1]).
[0]: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201901082
[1]: https://every.to/almanack/oatly-the-new-coke-821556
Sugar content without regard to glycemic index [0] is meaningless. Cow milk contains lactose, which has a very low glycemic index. Most milk replacements use maltose, which has almost double the glycemic load, making them significantly less healthy than actual milk (since they are all basically sugar and canola oil [1]).
[0]: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201901082
[1]: https://every.to/almanack/oatly-the-new-coke-821556
Which vegan cheeses have higher protein? In my experience they're all lower. Philadelphia lightest has 11% protein, 2.5% fat, 4.9% carbs. Violife slices are 0% protein, 23% fat (20% saturated) and 20% carbs. Pure trash.
I haven't been able to find cheeses. I was talking about vegan milks.
Well, there's no cholesterol at least.
Edit: Also keep in mind that cheese is a processed food too. I think it's somewhat subjective whether oil mixed with starch and yeast is more processed than milk coagulated with an enzyme (rennet, usually from mold), strained, and fermented. Processed food isn't inherently unhealthy, but both cheese and vegan cheese definitely are.
Edit: Also keep in mind that cheese is a processed food too. I think it's somewhat subjective whether oil mixed with starch and yeast is more processed than milk coagulated with an enzyme (rennet, usually from mold), strained, and fermented. Processed food isn't inherently unhealthy, but both cheese and vegan cheese definitely are.
Not all vegan cheeses are heavily processed, the cashew based type mentioned in the article tends to be not processed more than a normal cheese would be.
It should be noted that cheese is almost all process. It's just what it is. Unprocessed cheese is just milk.
With a cashew cream & agar agar base its not so hard to make a cheese approximation by yourself. Really not a lot of advanced processing needed. It gets harder if you want a more accurate emulation though
Animal fat and protein cause inflammation, while plant-based fat and protein don't. Dairy contains all sorts of hormones and other stuff (e.g. real estrogen, antibiotics) that people should not consume regularly.
Milk alternatives on the other hand can actually be anti-inflammatory because they contain antioxidants. Whether that still holds true for processed versions of it... probably depends!
The other big risk factor in cheese is saturated fat. I don't know if plant-based cheese is generally healthier in that respect.
Milk alternatives on the other hand can actually be anti-inflammatory because they contain antioxidants. Whether that still holds true for processed versions of it... probably depends!
The other big risk factor in cheese is saturated fat. I don't know if plant-based cheese is generally healthier in that respect.
Citations needed for all of this?
The first paragraph is just things you’ll hear on NutritionFacts.org with some research papers you can review for yourself. Which was weird to hear in a culture where meat and even dairy are heralded for their supposed nutritional (like protein) superiority. I think his “Evidence Based Weight Loss” video touches on these points all in one place if you are interested. There might be an accompanying article with simpler links to the papers he cites, but too lazy to check on mobile.
There has been countless times when I've reached for some cheese on the shelf and then finally noticed the words "cheese product" on the packaging and realize that I didn't actually grab what I intended to... so I put it back and look for one with the correct labeling.
So perhaps deceptive marketing/packaging is how it's gaining in sales?
So perhaps deceptive marketing/packaging is how it's gaining in sales?
I strongly doubt that. If the product was inferior, you'd maybe see one purchase from someone accidentally buying it, but it wouldn't be sustained.
People want this stuff. We've transitioned our house to vegan milks because, quite frankly, we like them better and they don't have the same awful externalities that milk production has.
We still use some butter and cheese, and some vegan butter/cheese. There are definitely recipes where it doesn't matter which cheese/butter you use, and some where it does.
People want this stuff. We've transitioned our house to vegan milks because, quite frankly, we like them better and they don't have the same awful externalities that milk production has.
We still use some butter and cheese, and some vegan butter/cheese. There are definitely recipes where it doesn't matter which cheese/butter you use, and some where it does.
"Cheese product" doesn’t necessary mean vegan. It could be that it contains cow milk, just not to an extent required to legally be sold as "cheese" according to the given country’s legislation.
In fact, in the US at least, "Cheese product" nessesarily means it isn't vegan.
Vegan cheese products also tend to be pretty upfront about not actually being cheese too, because they're marketing to people who don't want cheese.
Vegan cheese products also tend to be pretty upfront about not actually being cheese too, because they're marketing to people who don't want cheese.
Heavily-subsidized dairy takes up multiple grocery store aisles: crickets
Vegan cheese simply appears: "we've been INFILTRATED"
Vegan cheese simply appears: "we've been INFILTRATED"
Exactly.
On the topic of grocery store real estate. It blows my mind how much space meat products take up. Huge shelves of beef, pork, chicken in all forms and stages of processing. It's crazy to me the degree of reliance and attachment to animal products we've been coerced into.
On the topic of grocery store real estate. It blows my mind how much space meat products take up. Huge shelves of beef, pork, chicken in all forms and stages of processing. It's crazy to me the degree of reliance and attachment to animal products we've been coerced into.
Aren't humans omnivores? I don't think we've been coerced into animal consumption so much as that is the default state (if available).
We sure are. But there is no reason to keep eating meat other than personal preference. We don't have to eat meat and given the environmental impact, maybe we shouldn't anymore. Sure things taste different but who cares, we've enjoyed the privilege for a long time, so let's move on.
What I mean is that there is huge amounts of money out there working hard on preventing us to move on through commercials and lobbying, things like that. Recently, right wing conservatism even started using meat consumption as a signal to show that you're not a liberal.
What I mean is that there is huge amounts of money out there working hard on preventing us to move on through commercials and lobbying, things like that. Recently, right wing conservatism even started using meat consumption as a signal to show that you're not a liberal.
You have canines. We're evolved to eat meat.
Here in the UK there’s a number of small companies making some really delicious vegan cheeses, and some of them are starting to show up in organic supermarkets. Anyone based in London who’s interested in exploring what’s available should make a visit to La Fauxmagerie in Shoreditch - they have all the best stuff. Otherwise, some brands to try are Honestly Tasty, I Am Nut OK, Kinda Co, and Tyne Chease, all of whom I believe have online stores.
These companies are all getting extremely close in terms of flavour, but I’ve not personally tried anything that replicates a stringy melty mozzarella to top a pizza. That’s the holy grail for me.
These companies are all getting extremely close in terms of flavour, but I’ve not personally tried anything that replicates a stringy melty mozzarella to top a pizza. That’s the holy grail for me.
I am not a vegan but I do eat vegan meals from time to time ...
I would prefer that we develop and maintain true vegan foodstuffs and recipes rather than create vegan versions of animal products.
I am interested in eating an interesting new dish that was designed to showcase vegan ingredients. I have no interest in eating fake cheese pizzas and fake hamburgers.
I would prefer that we develop and maintain true vegan foodstuffs and recipes rather than create vegan versions of animal products.
I am interested in eating an interesting new dish that was designed to showcase vegan ingredients. I have no interest in eating fake cheese pizzas and fake hamburgers.
Exactly. Fried onion rings will beat fake-mozzarella sticks every single time, simply because that dish was designed and intended to be vegetable-based from the beginning. Want to make classic onion rings full vegan? Substituting vegetable oil for lard is far less drastic than trying to come up with a substitute for cheese. Pizza? There are many pizza recipes that do not involve cheese at all! Try a no-cheese pesto or something.
It makes little sense to me. But I suppose I have relatively few food cravings. If you're trying to avoid dairy and and every week you just need cheese sticks or pizza, then I guess that's the market this is aimed at?
It makes little sense to me. But I suppose I have relatively few food cravings. If you're trying to avoid dairy and and every week you just need cheese sticks or pizza, then I guess that's the market this is aimed at?
If you just eat an a local indian restaurant, you can find many dishes that are vegetarian from the source.
I eat a number of different vegan meat substitutes and they're all fine but vegan cheese is still much, much further from the real thing. That said, I Don't think cheese needs to be a huge part of anyone's diet, so simply reducing your intake is fine.
Much like vegetarian meat alternatives, I find it depends on how critical of a component it is to the meal. Meat substitute burgers are pretty good! But you can’t fake a steak. Similarly, a vegan cheese pizza just isn’t up to scratch.
My spouse and I cut out dairy and meat products due to health reasons. We are vegan now. Our bad cholesterol dropped over 35% and saved one of us from having to go on heart medication. We were already health conscious millennials but genetics are always pushing their own agenda. We gotten used to good vegan cheeses not Daiya and the previous gen of dairy alternatives. It helps to live in a major metro.
>> A coagulant is typically added to turn the milk proteins into solid curds — in many cheeses, that coagulant is an enzyme called rennet, which is traditionally taken from an unweaned calf’s stomach lining, although vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases.
"Traditionally" rennet was taken from an unweaned milk animal's stomach (not just a calf's stomach. Some people make most of their cheese from ewe's and goat's milk).
Fast-forward a couple thousand years and in modern times, most rennet in commercial cheeses is the product of fermentation by cute little bacteria cultured in cute little bacteria incubators:
... Because of the above imperfections of microbial and animal rennets, many producers sought other replacements of rennet. With genetic engineering it became possible to isolate rennet genes from animals and introduce them into certain bacteria, fungi, or yeasts to make them produce recombinant chymosin during fermentation. The genetically modified microorganism is killed after fermentation and chymosin isolated from the fermentation broth, so that the fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC) used by cheese producers does not contain a GMO or any GMO DNA. FPC is identical to chymosin made by an animal, but is produced in a more efficient way. FPC products have been on the market since 1990 and, because the quantity needed per unit of milk can be standardized, are commercially viable alternatives to crude animal or plant rennets, as well as generally preferred to them in industrial production.[12] ...
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet#Fermentation-produced_c...
But, somehow, everytime I read an article about vegan cheese it seems to lead with the outdated information that rennet is, like, normally, made with the stomach lininig of unweaned calves.
"Traditionally" rennet was taken from an unweaned milk animal's stomach (not just a calf's stomach. Some people make most of their cheese from ewe's and goat's milk).
Fast-forward a couple thousand years and in modern times, most rennet in commercial cheeses is the product of fermentation by cute little bacteria cultured in cute little bacteria incubators:
... Because of the above imperfections of microbial and animal rennets, many producers sought other replacements of rennet. With genetic engineering it became possible to isolate rennet genes from animals and introduce them into certain bacteria, fungi, or yeasts to make them produce recombinant chymosin during fermentation. The genetically modified microorganism is killed after fermentation and chymosin isolated from the fermentation broth, so that the fermentation-produced chymosin (FPC) used by cheese producers does not contain a GMO or any GMO DNA. FPC is identical to chymosin made by an animal, but is produced in a more efficient way. FPC products have been on the market since 1990 and, because the quantity needed per unit of milk can be standardized, are commercially viable alternatives to crude animal or plant rennets, as well as generally preferred to them in industrial production.[12] ...
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet#Fermentation-produced_c...
But, somehow, everytime I read an article about vegan cheese it seems to lead with the outdated information that rennet is, like, normally, made with the stomach lininig of unweaned calves.
> everytime I read an article about vegan cheese it seems to lead with the outdated information that rennet is, like, normally, made with the stomach lininig of unweaned calves
From the article:
> What Perfect Day is doing isn’t new, exactly: Pandya, who is vegan, points out that for a long time, dairy cheese wasn’t even considered vegetarian because of its use of rennet. When vegetarian rennet was developed in the 1970s and commercialized in the 1980s, “it wasn’t done for any profitability reason or consumer trend reason or anything to do with animal welfare,” Pandya says. “It was just economics — like, it just made more sense to use the latest in fermentation and biotechnology to figure out a way to make that enzyme without the extraction from an animal.
From the article:
> What Perfect Day is doing isn’t new, exactly: Pandya, who is vegan, points out that for a long time, dairy cheese wasn’t even considered vegetarian because of its use of rennet. When vegetarian rennet was developed in the 1970s and commercialized in the 1980s, “it wasn’t done for any profitability reason or consumer trend reason or anything to do with animal welfare,” Pandya says. “It was just economics — like, it just made more sense to use the latest in fermentation and biotechnology to figure out a way to make that enzyme without the extraction from an animal.
I've read that. Why do you copy it here?
Because the very counterpoint you were making was already addressed in detail in the article. Admittedly not as much detail, but they weren't being as simplistic and false as you suggest with your quote of the article.
Thanks for the explanation but the text you quote doesn't say that fermentation-produced rennet is the norm in the cheese industry and that animal rennets (as well as fungal and plant rennets) are only used in a tiny proportion of all commercial cheeses.
If someone who didn't know anything about cheesemaking were to read the article, the opinion they would form from it would probably be that rennet is made from calf stomachs' linings and that other kinds of rennet are "some times used".
It wouldn't help anyone reading the article to find out that "vegetarian rennet" was commercialised in the 1970's and 80's as the article later says, because the article hasn't made any attempt to explain what "vegetarian rennet" is, exactly. "Vegetarian rennet" can apply to fungal or plant rennet as well as it can apply to rennet produced by bacterial frermentation and an inexperienced reader may well confuse the three and think that it only applies to the former two.
To quote directly from the article, the phrase "vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases" is the one I find the most potentially confusing to readers who don't have detailed knowledge of cheesemaking.
If someone who didn't know anything about cheesemaking were to read the article, the opinion they would form from it would probably be that rennet is made from calf stomachs' linings and that other kinds of rennet are "some times used".
It wouldn't help anyone reading the article to find out that "vegetarian rennet" was commercialised in the 1970's and 80's as the article later says, because the article hasn't made any attempt to explain what "vegetarian rennet" is, exactly. "Vegetarian rennet" can apply to fungal or plant rennet as well as it can apply to rennet produced by bacterial frermentation and an inexperienced reader may well confuse the three and think that it only applies to the former two.
To quote directly from the article, the phrase "vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases" is the one I find the most potentially confusing to readers who don't have detailed knowledge of cheesemaking.
This is entirely dependent on the type of cheese being made. Famously, Parmigiano-Reggiano is required under the EU DOP scheme to be made with calf rennet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmigiano-Reggiano#/media/Fil...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmigiano-Reggiano#/media/Fil...
As I say, most cheese is made with rennet enzymes produced by bacterial fermentation. Obviously, some aren't, but they are the tiniest minority. The article gives the impression that animal rennet is the norm and what I say in my comment is that it is not.
One thing I really don't like about a lot of these meat / dairy alternatives is how they use cheap PUFA oils with their bad health effects vs something better like coconut or avocado oil. I would also put butter / ghee / tallow to the list, but then it's not vegan.
As someone allergic to dairy, just being able to find more vegan products at my local grocery store is wonderful. Dairy-free chocolate is a lot easier to find.
Sadly, vegan replacements for dairy products generally don't hold up, but having something close is better than nothing.
Sadly, vegan replacements for dairy products generally don't hold up, but having something close is better than nothing.
A lot of the time I feel like health food is really just a way for manufacturers to cheap out and then sell something at a premium.
Margarine is vegan, but it was always just marketed as "cheap". Discerning or well-to-do consumers would just pass it up.
Now, people will put up with things that are very cheap to make, taste horrible, and are very expensive to buy.
That creates a problem: the food is becoming about the story and not the taste. That's not going to lead to good products; only good stories and packaging to tell the story. And bad products won't make for wide adoption.
Asking your customers to sacrifice gets you a small band of loyal customers, like a cult. But good products stand on their own and don't ask for sacrifice... think Tesla.
Margarine is vegan, but it was always just marketed as "cheap". Discerning or well-to-do consumers would just pass it up.
Now, people will put up with things that are very cheap to make, taste horrible, and are very expensive to buy.
That creates a problem: the food is becoming about the story and not the taste. That's not going to lead to good products; only good stories and packaging to tell the story. And bad products won't make for wide adoption.
Asking your customers to sacrifice gets you a small band of loyal customers, like a cult. But good products stand on their own and don't ask for sacrifice... think Tesla.
> A lot of the time I feel like health food is really just a way for manufacturers to cheap out and then sell something at a premium.
Probably, but vegan cheese isn't marketed as health food.
> Margarine is vegan
I wish.
Probably, but vegan cheese isn't marketed as health food.
> Margarine is vegan
I wish.
> Margarine is vegan
Some of it is, it's just not safe to assume it always is unless you check the ingredients.
But that's the case for a lot of foods that fall into the sometimes-but-not-always-vegan category.
Some of it is, it's just not safe to assume it always is unless you check the ingredients.
But that's the case for a lot of foods that fall into the sometimes-but-not-always-vegan category.
> > Margarine is vegan
>
>I wish.
While not all margarine is vegan quite a lot of them are. Though you have to look out and read the packaging to make sure you don't missgrab.
While not all margarine is vegan quite a lot of them are. Though you have to look out and read the packaging to make sure you don't missgrab.
A lot of "health food" is a scam, and isn't even healthy. It's actually kind of absurd how if you look at even the junk food aisle, you'll see tons of advertisements for "all-natural", "organic", "30% less sugar", "with vitamin B".
The vegan cheese isn't an exception: some of them are actually pretty good, but most are really processed with a lot of added oil. Although most vegans do seem to realize and accept this, because it still has the benefit of being vegan.
If you want real "healthy" food, get whole foods: vegetables, meats (or good vegan meats, look for protein / calories ratio), fish, yogurt, beans. Fruits and even grains are ok, as are nuts and nut butters - just watch your portions. Even a bit of cheese or olive oil is good because they actually have nutrients. Ironically, all of these are usually packaged plain and don't mention "low-carb" or "good source of vitamin B12".
The vegan cheese isn't an exception: some of them are actually pretty good, but most are really processed with a lot of added oil. Although most vegans do seem to realize and accept this, because it still has the benefit of being vegan.
If you want real "healthy" food, get whole foods: vegetables, meats (or good vegan meats, look for protein / calories ratio), fish, yogurt, beans. Fruits and even grains are ok, as are nuts and nut butters - just watch your portions. Even a bit of cheese or olive oil is good because they actually have nutrients. Ironically, all of these are usually packaged plain and don't mention "low-carb" or "good source of vitamin B12".
I’ve always found it interesting that vegan “cheese” is still considered cheese. Should it be cheese-food? or imitation cheese?
What is “cheese”? Is a Kraft American Single “cheese”? What about Cheese Whiz?
Certainly there’s a lot of debate about “cheese” even before getting into vegan
Certainly there’s a lot of debate about “cheese” even before getting into vegan
The EU has protections these sort of brand dilutions. You can't call it cheese if it doesn't come from milk and you can't call it milk if it doesn't come from a teat.
Which is weird to me, coconut milk has been "milk" for over 300 years.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coconut%20milk
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coconut%20milk
Almond milk predates coconut milk by several hundred years even. I remember reading an account by a European man stranded in North America of almond milk but I couldn't find the source again.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almond%20milk https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/almond-milk-obsession-...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almond%20milk https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/almond-milk-obsession-...
Which is why it's basically the only exception. No other non-milks are allowed that. Good
But if consumers understand that coconut milk doesn't come from a cow, surely they can understand soy milk doesn't.
Milk is already used for non animal milks as coconut shows, so I don't see this doing anything pro-consumer.
Milk is already used for non animal milks as coconut shows, so I don't see this doing anything pro-consumer.
A historical exception isn't an acceptable excuse to muddy the otherwise precisely defined definition further. But that's just my opinion. I'd even wager that coconut liquid may lose its privilege in the near future. Good
If plant-based cheese is ever going to gain mainstream acceptance, it will be necessary to fall under the "cheese" category alongside cow, goat, and other animal-based cheeses. The founder of Impossible Foods has a great framing on this about targeting meat-eaters with a substitute, rather than going after the much smaller group of highly incentivized vegetarians/vegans.
There are multiple legal fights by animal agriculture lobbying groups to exclude plant-based products from using the meat/cheese/egg terms, specifically (IMO) to try to maintain the status quo and prevent these products from gaining traction.
Ultimately there are no natural laws governing language, and given the above acceptance of plant-based products under these terms is a fight worth fighting for anyone hoping to see them gain traction and mainstream acceptance.
There are multiple legal fights by animal agriculture lobbying groups to exclude plant-based products from using the meat/cheese/egg terms, specifically (IMO) to try to maintain the status quo and prevent these products from gaining traction.
Ultimately there are no natural laws governing language, and given the above acceptance of plant-based products under these terms is a fight worth fighting for anyone hoping to see them gain traction and mainstream acceptance.
Some of the newer vegan cheeses are pretty damn good, gooey pizza goodness is in the realm of possible
Miyoko's is good. Available at Whole Foods and even some products at Target. Miyoko cheddar-style cheese slices have a nice tang to them. The coconut oil and tapioca starch kind of stuff (Daiya, etc.) is alright for pizza, but it's not great. It's expensive too. This kind of stuff should be cheaper to make than dairy cheese. Unfortunately cheese and cheeze are both high in calories, sodium, and fat.
If you want to make vegan cheese that actually tastes like cheese, the best approach is going to be to use something like Perfect Day's milk, which synthesizes milk proteins using some sort of genetic engineering or other. This could, in the long-term, enable better cheese production than present techniques, since cheesemakers have greater control over the chemical composition of their dairy.
That said, I think there's potential for plant-based cheese-like products to be delicious in their own right, without trying to perfectly mimic existing cheese products. I don't think the techniques are there yet, but that's to be expected, conventional cheesemaking has been honed by millennia of experience.
As an appreciator of fine cheeses, I'm excited to try the delicious creations of food scientists working with cheese cultures and plant-derived materials. Unfortunately, the vegan cheeses on supermarket shelves are not aiming at the fine cheese market, and instead trying to compete with dirt-cheap sliced/shredded cheese, and that's not what interests me.
That said, I think there's potential for plant-based cheese-like products to be delicious in their own right, without trying to perfectly mimic existing cheese products. I don't think the techniques are there yet, but that's to be expected, conventional cheesemaking has been honed by millennia of experience.
As an appreciator of fine cheeses, I'm excited to try the delicious creations of food scientists working with cheese cultures and plant-derived materials. Unfortunately, the vegan cheeses on supermarket shelves are not aiming at the fine cheese market, and instead trying to compete with dirt-cheap sliced/shredded cheese, and that's not what interests me.
Is there a good vegan substitute for hard, sharp cheddar cheese, or for blue cheese or gorgonzola?
I've never seen anything that comes even remotely close.
I've never seen anything that comes even remotely close.
No, not yet. Most of the vegan cheeses target shreds/singles. I would bet someone is working on it, but that it's probably a niche product at best.
I think there are other food items that have that funky, umami tang that those cheeses have though. Plenty of cultures have built up some interesting flavors in vegan food stuffs with lactobacillus.
I think there are other food items that have that funky, umami tang that those cheeses have though. Plenty of cultures have built up some interesting flavors in vegan food stuffs with lactobacillus.
Here in the UK, there’s a product called Veganzola made by a small company called Honestly Tasty. It’s incredibly close to the cow’s milk version.
From the article:
> Given McAthy’s expertise and scholarship on the subject, it’s not surprising that Blue Heron has been producing the vegan cheese world’s most dairy-esque products since 2016: its dried herb- and wine-powdered rounds look nearly indistinguishable on a cheese board from dairy. But that’s not actually McAthy’s intention.
> “My personal goal has always been that I really want to try to create or expand the boundaries of cheese-making, period,” she says. “So that means I’m happy to use the analogous term that people have a reference point for” — some of her cheeses resemble blues and Camembert — “but I’m just trying to create new cheeses.” This brings up the question of what cheese really is, exactly, and what vegan cheesemakers might be proving is that it’s simply fermented milk. Could be cow’s or goat’s milk, or it could be cashew.
The article talks a lot about artisanal cheese makers applying traditional dairy processes to nut-based cheeses
> Given McAthy’s expertise and scholarship on the subject, it’s not surprising that Blue Heron has been producing the vegan cheese world’s most dairy-esque products since 2016: its dried herb- and wine-powdered rounds look nearly indistinguishable on a cheese board from dairy. But that’s not actually McAthy’s intention.
> “My personal goal has always been that I really want to try to create or expand the boundaries of cheese-making, period,” she says. “So that means I’m happy to use the analogous term that people have a reference point for” — some of her cheeses resemble blues and Camembert — “but I’m just trying to create new cheeses.” This brings up the question of what cheese really is, exactly, and what vegan cheesemakers might be proving is that it’s simply fermented milk. Could be cow’s or goat’s milk, or it could be cashew.
The article talks a lot about artisanal cheese makers applying traditional dairy processes to nut-based cheeses
So far, I'm sold on Soft/Spreadable cheeses from Miyokos. I don't remember having had any real winners on the hard cheese side yet but I will keep trying different ones until someone cracks it. I'm actually most excited for the CRISPR'd yeast approach to cheese (food more broadly) approach because I feel like we will be able to get a culinarily equivalent product (eventually...) but perhaps remove some of the less healthy components (saturated fats and others) for a superior product with a lower carbon footprint.
I'd be vegan if not for cheese, so I hope they can catch up with the beef replacements (which I am 100% happy with at this point). IMO they're not there yet, but are getting closer.
I have tried all the easily available vegan cheeses and have found them tolerable at best, except for one occasion where a food truck served a plant-based burger with smoked vegan cheese. I don’t know which type of vegan cheese it started as or how they smoked it, but they did achieve something that was more than tolerable. Just.
Until the tech improves I will prefer to stick to burger toppings like sliced tomato, avocado and onion. Much, much better. And for pizzas, it’s better just to go without.
Until the tech improves I will prefer to stick to burger toppings like sliced tomato, avocado and onion. Much, much better. And for pizzas, it’s better just to go without.
In Colorado, there is a local company making small batches of vegan cheese that they also mail out for large enough orders. It's not going to melt like normal cheese, but it does a much better job than the other ones I have tried. Their cheddar is really good. It seems like a hard recipe to crack and this company is the closest to it so far in my opinion. https://www.peacefulrebelvegancheese.com/
I was really into fromage before I transitioned to a plant based diet several years ago and I do miss cheese quite a lot. The vegan imitations are, as stated all over this page, lackluster at best. However, I think there is one exception, at least from what I've tried. That is Parveggio. It's a grated parmigiano imitation and it's super tasty! I use it on pasta, lasagna, etc all the time. I highly recommend it to vegans and non-vegans alike.
Most of the vegan "cheese" I tasted were honestly quite bad, they seemed to be plastic imitations of standard milk cheese.
But once I found one named Cicioni [1], and it was absolutely awesome! But sadly I have a hard time finding it in shops. :(
[1] https://www.casadelfermentino.com/en/brand/cicioni/
[1] https://www.casadelfermentino.com/en/brand/cicioni/
Only time I had some was in vegan quesadillas in San jose. The cooking process caused some material change and the more astringent, chemical qualities came to the fore.
I've seen molten plastic with more cheese like qualities.
It was a 3/10 experience. I would try again, but there would have to be improvement.
I've seen molten plastic with more cheese like qualities.
It was a 3/10 experience. I would try again, but there would have to be improvement.
As a french, I'm sometimes offended by what Americans call "cheese".
If I'd wanted to make a non-dairy pizza, I'd just remove the cheese and find other interesting ingredients. The world is too vast and beautiful to eat what the Americans call cheese.
If I'd wanted to make a non-dairy pizza, I'd just remove the cheese and find other interesting ingredients. The world is too vast and beautiful to eat what the Americans call cheese.
Vegan food will never be able to match to a natural human diet.
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/veganism-is-the-pinnacle-of-b...
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/veganism-is-the-pinnacle-of-b...
This project is promising: https://www.realvegancheese.org/
I think they've gotten to casein protein production but the site is kind of light on progress details.
I think they've gotten to casein protein production but the site is kind of light on progress details.
I hate how they can obfuscate the fact that they're not dairy. Via their labels and shelf placement. I've bought them on accident. It's always obvious to me on first taste, but from the superficial supermarket look, it is not. I'd think they get the 'wings' treatment.
https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/blogs/food-fight/pos...
https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/blogs/food-fight/pos...
You might be surprised to learn that "milk" and "cheese" have been used to refer to non-dairy products in many cultures and places over thousands of years. In Western Europe, it's tied to meatless Fridays and Lent, so it's a religious freedom issue. And in many other religions worldwide, too.
Sorry you were confused! Poor behavior by your grocery store.
Sorry you were confused! Poor behavior by your grocery store.
Yea, but aren't those items obviously not milk or cheese?
Almond milk? It's kind of like the shitty non-fat milk from powder that I drank as a kid. If I hadn't become lactose intolerant after I turned 50, I wouldn't touch almond milk unless I was making a Renaissance recipe. Given that I wanted to use it for cappuccino, I had some fun learning about the history of almond milk.
I used to eat and enjoy vegan cheese but it isnt really like normal cheese. I liked it because it was a bit stringier and went well with mac and cheese.
I'm happy some people want to be vegan and I try to be careful and buy cage-free eggs and stuff because the way animals tend to be abused on farms can be pretty upsetting.
Please don't lie when you're selling me food though (or play games to trick me into buying your stuff.) I tried amazon fresh a couple times and accidentally bought the plant based "meat" which was pretty much inedible (if I wanted a vegetarian diet I would just eat vegetables not some crazy processed garbage.) I no longer buy food from Amazon because of this.
Please don't lie when you're selling me food though (or play games to trick me into buying your stuff.) I tried amazon fresh a couple times and accidentally bought the plant based "meat" which was pretty much inedible (if I wanted a vegetarian diet I would just eat vegetables not some crazy processed garbage.) I no longer buy food from Amazon because of this.
just tasted the stuff... and I have to say I'm impressed. Eat it right out of the package.
Also, it's so delicious that you can eat the package for extra flavour.
I’ve made vegan Mac-N-Cheese before and I’ll tell you it was really good!
Lots of vegan cheeses are made from Almonds. In the US, most Almonds are grown in California using irrigating diverted from major waterways.
Don't eat Almonds from California, they are contributing to a major ecological disaster in the state.
Don't eat Almonds from California, they are contributing to a major ecological disaster in the state.
Mmmmmm, more processed food options, joy!
OG cheese is obviously a processed product. I have never seen a cheese cow but perhaps that just me
Next: vegan head cheese.
really wanted to post this one again eh
is this an april fool's joke?
is this an april fool's joke?
Maybe it's more of a Naissance?
Hmm, we changed the title to "The Vegan Cheese Renaissance" (a phrase from the article) in keeping with the site guideline: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait". But "renaissance" seems to be baity in its own right, so I've taken another crack at it above - now using language from the subheading.
"Vegan" products don't belong with the products they're impersonating and marketing them as such is fraud.
lot of fake food propaganda on the internet lately
fake meak was proven to be non-healhtly, and now fake cheese
if i want cheese i'll buy cheese, stop trying to sell me fake things as X, because it clearly is not the same thing
meat and cheese are what they are because the animals eat plenty of things and they are living creatures, you can't replicate this
can we stop promoting pseudo VC startups, they clearly are only interested in making money, STOP
also only americans will use "cheese" as a universal word
what kind of cheese? do they know it's not yellow and it doesn't come from an aluminum tube?
fake meak was proven to be non-healhtly, and now fake cheese
if i want cheese i'll buy cheese, stop trying to sell me fake things as X, because it clearly is not the same thing
meat and cheese are what they are because the animals eat plenty of things and they are living creatures, you can't replicate this
can we stop promoting pseudo VC startups, they clearly are only interested in making money, STOP
also only americans will use "cheese" as a universal word
what kind of cheese? do they know it's not yellow and it doesn't come from an aluminum tube?
Fake meat was never made because of the health benefits. People want impossible burgers because they are unhealthy and taste like burgers.
> meat and cheese are what they are because the animals eat plenty of things and they are living creatures, you can't replicate this
I mean, you certainly can. Look at the companies making 'clean' meat and fish.
> meat and cheese are what they are because the animals eat plenty of things and they are living creatures, you can't replicate this
I mean, you certainly can. Look at the companies making 'clean' meat and fish.
> fake meak was proven to be non-healhtly
Here [0] is a series of nine short videos (with text transcripts and links to all scientific sources) on plant-based meat substitutes' health and environmental impact. The reported findings go against your claim.
[0] https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-environmental-impacts-o...
Here [0] is a series of nine short videos (with text transcripts and links to all scientific sources) on plant-based meat substitutes' health and environmental impact. The reported findings go against your claim.
[0] https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-environmental-impacts-o...
Nutritionfacts is ideologically driven[1], advocating a plant-based diet. What exactly did you expect?
Actual "nutrition facts" are few and far between. I could selectively cite all kinds of studies that go for or against veganism. They're all flawed in some way, so people can just dismiss what they don't want to hear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Greger
Actual "nutrition facts" are few and far between. I could selectively cite all kinds of studies that go for or against veganism. They're all flawed in some way, so people can just dismiss what they don't want to hear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Greger
They advocate a whole-foods plant-based diet. Meats/cheeses made out of plants aren't whole foods though. Generally we have to think critically and scrutinize sources cited and if they back up claims made. Do you have some such specific objection in this case?
Prehistoric humans made cheese (and beer). This helped society to grow. To call these things 'processed' when they have been made by humans using simple things (and have been for ages) is disingenuous at best and ideologically driven at worst.
I don't see that claim made anywhere, unless you're referring to "the cheesemaking process".
The article does not call cheese (or beer) processed. That adjective is applied exclusively to the vegan cheese substitutes.
I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan - I’ve tried every vegan cheese on the shelf. The answer is no because it’s not even close to ready. It might pass an initial taste test where you say, that’s not so bad, but then you pick up on all the things it’s missing.
Sometimes the aftertaste is terrible, sometimes the texture or versatility.
Maybe someday someone will crack it but what’s on the shelf today isn’t close. I’m not saying it’s all terrible but you aren’t going to convince many non vegans to eat it (like may be the case with the current beyond/impossible burger tech).