Are we cut out for universal morality?(nautil.us)
nautil.us
Are we cut out for universal morality?
https://nautil.us/issue/100/outsiders/are-we-cut-out-for-universal-morality
135 comments
> If you look at the laws of practically every developed country, there is no "tribalism."
The laws may not be tribalistic, but their enforcement certainly is.
Take, for example, drugs. This report from the U.S. Department of Justice[1] indicates that arrests for the selling of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 33%, and arrests for possession of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 26%.
The same is true of voter suppression laws. For example, the closure of voting places in minority communities, which lead to people of color waiting, on average, 29% longer to vote than white people[2].
The January insurrection is also a perfectly valid example of tribalism. A majority of Republicans falsely believe that this crime was perpetrated by Democrats, Antifa, or even the Capitol Police themselves[3]. We cannot have a serious discussion about the morality of armed insurrection when tribalism causes such a large number of people to reject reality wholesale.
[1]: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf [2]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1909.00024.pdf [3]: https://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/article/republicans-blame-d...
The laws may not be tribalistic, but their enforcement certainly is.
Take, for example, drugs. This report from the U.S. Department of Justice[1] indicates that arrests for the selling of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 33%, and arrests for possession of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 26%.
The same is true of voter suppression laws. For example, the closure of voting places in minority communities, which lead to people of color waiting, on average, 29% longer to vote than white people[2].
The January insurrection is also a perfectly valid example of tribalism. A majority of Republicans falsely believe that this crime was perpetrated by Democrats, Antifa, or even the Capitol Police themselves[3]. We cannot have a serious discussion about the morality of armed insurrection when tribalism causes such a large number of people to reject reality wholesale.
[1]: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf [2]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1909.00024.pdf [3]: https://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/article/republicans-blame-d...
Just commenting about your first point (disproportionate arrests of black people for drugs). I looked at your link. I read it. Did you read it? The end summarizes its own alternative (non-prejudicial) explanation for the gap.
In a post about an article wanting to secure a "universal morality" I would be wary relying on statistical data that has an abundance of plausible explanations, especially when it's meant to be deployed against something on the scale of 'our very moral existence.' If the issue were "tribalism" you would expect minority groups to be persecuted to some extent greater than the non-minority group. But in the US, there are other minority groups besides blacks, and they tend to have a lower incarceration rate than whites. I'm not sure how to square that with "tribalism."
In a post about an article wanting to secure a "universal morality" I would be wary relying on statistical data that has an abundance of plausible explanations, especially when it's meant to be deployed against something on the scale of 'our very moral existence.' If the issue were "tribalism" you would expect minority groups to be persecuted to some extent greater than the non-minority group. But in the US, there are other minority groups besides blacks, and they tend to have a lower incarceration rate than whites. I'm not sure how to square that with "tribalism."
> The laws may not be tribalistic
I get what you're saying overall, and I agree with most of it, but you're giving too much credit with this statement. Some laws are tribalistic in America. It's not just that drug laws disproportionately target Black Americans in their enforcement, they were in their original forms designed to do so. The whole history of segregation and voter suppression is laws that were designed to hurt others, largely in the pursuit of tribal power. Voting suppression is inherently tribal, the whole point of voter suppression is to limit the voting power of other demographics or tribes.
The current push for anti-trans legislation in multiple states is also being driven by tribalism. Keeping trans people out of bathrooms and sports didn't suddenly become an emergency to anyone because of any brand new risk or development or scientific discovery. There's no reason why this would be more pressing to Republicans now than it would have been 4 years ago.
The major increase in legislation now is because it's a culture war, because it makes Democrats mad, because it's a backlash to the progress trans communities have made in securing rights, because it hurts people who are different who are symbolic in people's minds of power shifts and changing demographics.
On an individual level, things get more complicated. You can't use tribalism to explain everything. But on a broad, society-wide level, it just seems absurd to me to say that tribalism has no impact at all on American laws. I mean, heck, forget about America: if people don't think that classism, party-loyalty, all of these tribal instincts affected how Britain has approached Brexit and what debates people had about Brexit, then they really aren't paying much attention to how laws get made and policies determined.
Culture, in-groups, and out-groups all influence law.
I get what you're saying overall, and I agree with most of it, but you're giving too much credit with this statement. Some laws are tribalistic in America. It's not just that drug laws disproportionately target Black Americans in their enforcement, they were in their original forms designed to do so. The whole history of segregation and voter suppression is laws that were designed to hurt others, largely in the pursuit of tribal power. Voting suppression is inherently tribal, the whole point of voter suppression is to limit the voting power of other demographics or tribes.
The current push for anti-trans legislation in multiple states is also being driven by tribalism. Keeping trans people out of bathrooms and sports didn't suddenly become an emergency to anyone because of any brand new risk or development or scientific discovery. There's no reason why this would be more pressing to Republicans now than it would have been 4 years ago.
The major increase in legislation now is because it's a culture war, because it makes Democrats mad, because it's a backlash to the progress trans communities have made in securing rights, because it hurts people who are different who are symbolic in people's minds of power shifts and changing demographics.
On an individual level, things get more complicated. You can't use tribalism to explain everything. But on a broad, society-wide level, it just seems absurd to me to say that tribalism has no impact at all on American laws. I mean, heck, forget about America: if people don't think that classism, party-loyalty, all of these tribal instincts affected how Britain has approached Brexit and what debates people had about Brexit, then they really aren't paying much attention to how laws get made and policies determined.
Culture, in-groups, and out-groups all influence law.
> The current push for anti-trans legislation in multiple states is also being driven by tribalism. Keeping trans people out of bathrooms and sports didn't suddenly become an emergency to anyone because of any brand new risk or development or scientific discovery. There's no reason why this would be more pressing to Republicans now than it would have been 4 years ago.
No one was talking about that 4 years ago. Its like saying its tribalisme to care about the environment compared to a century ago.
For the trans its just we have move higher in the scale of 1st world problems.
No one was talking about that 4 years ago. Its like saying its tribalisme to care about the environment compared to a century ago.
For the trans its just we have move higher in the scale of 1st world problems.
This doesn't match the experience I have when I try talking to people who are anti-trans. They don't argue that people using the wrong bathroom was always a threat and that they're more aware of it now. They argue as if it's a new problem. So in my opinion awareness is not a good enough explanation on its own to describe why they're talking about the issue now.
Boy and girl sports leagues reinforce this conclusion for me. I'm watching people who I know have never once argued about the integrity of girls' sports in any capacity suddenly tell me that this is a pressing issue that is reducing safe spaces for women. It's hard to explain that shift without tribalism. Maybe it's just ignorance of what's going on, maybe they don't actually realize that trans athletes aren't a brand new thing, maybe they believe this is a novel situation. Or maybe some of this is fueled by reactionary rhetoric from leaders and new sources, both of which really shouldn't be able to believably claim ignorance as an excuse.
It's not universal, I don't claim that tribalism explains everything. But you can at least in theory point to environmental issues and argue about them using actual data in the real world. We can point to statistics about, say, incarceration and show that it was a problem before awareness went up. We can point to environmental issues and believably say, "species were always going extinct and we would like it to stop." In contrast, there's no objective reason to argue that transgender athletes are more dangerous today than they would have been in the past. And importantly, there's very little to point to as evidence that anybody was getting hurt because of transgender athletes in the past. It's not just a 1st-world problem that people suddenly have bandwidth to argue about, it's a debate that's almost entirely defined by opposition to a social trend rather any kind of data or visible problem.
I do think at some point it makes sense to call that a reactionary movement.
And of course, this isn't necessarily Republican-exclusive, I do also see Democrats who call themselves allies but have done very little research about what problems trans people face or how trans communities talk about these issues. And I do think there's a little bit of tribalism there where a subset of the Democratic party has picked a side in this debate based pretty much entirely on their party identity, not because they understand what's going on or because they've done any research. However, in my opinion there's comparatively very little real-world harm from clueless allies, so I spend more time focusing on the Republican side because laws that restrict medical care for children are just obviously a more harmful, dangerous result for the trans community than a tone-deaf message from a company or a poorly phrased Facebook post is.
Boy and girl sports leagues reinforce this conclusion for me. I'm watching people who I know have never once argued about the integrity of girls' sports in any capacity suddenly tell me that this is a pressing issue that is reducing safe spaces for women. It's hard to explain that shift without tribalism. Maybe it's just ignorance of what's going on, maybe they don't actually realize that trans athletes aren't a brand new thing, maybe they believe this is a novel situation. Or maybe some of this is fueled by reactionary rhetoric from leaders and new sources, both of which really shouldn't be able to believably claim ignorance as an excuse.
It's not universal, I don't claim that tribalism explains everything. But you can at least in theory point to environmental issues and argue about them using actual data in the real world. We can point to statistics about, say, incarceration and show that it was a problem before awareness went up. We can point to environmental issues and believably say, "species were always going extinct and we would like it to stop." In contrast, there's no objective reason to argue that transgender athletes are more dangerous today than they would have been in the past. And importantly, there's very little to point to as evidence that anybody was getting hurt because of transgender athletes in the past. It's not just a 1st-world problem that people suddenly have bandwidth to argue about, it's a debate that's almost entirely defined by opposition to a social trend rather any kind of data or visible problem.
I do think at some point it makes sense to call that a reactionary movement.
And of course, this isn't necessarily Republican-exclusive, I do also see Democrats who call themselves allies but have done very little research about what problems trans people face or how trans communities talk about these issues. And I do think there's a little bit of tribalism there where a subset of the Democratic party has picked a side in this debate based pretty much entirely on their party identity, not because they understand what's going on or because they've done any research. However, in my opinion there's comparatively very little real-world harm from clueless allies, so I spend more time focusing on the Republican side because laws that restrict medical care for children are just obviously a more harmful, dangerous result for the trans community than a tone-deaf message from a company or a poorly phrased Facebook post is.
> They argue as if it's a new problem
Independently of how i feel about it, It IS new to care about the feelings of minority groups that much.. we moved up the "maslow" scale of problems to adress as a society.
Independently of how i feel about it, It IS new to care about the feelings of minority groups that much.. we moved up the "maslow" scale of problems to adress as a society.
> It IS new to care about the feelings of minority groups that much..
I think you're making the mistake of conflating the motivations behind people who are fighting for trans rights and the motivations behind people who are fighting against trans rights. But the motivations between those two groups are not going to be identical.
I buy that Maslow's hierarchy of needs might maybe offer some explanation why we're finally getting around to addressing problems affecting the trans community, but is not sufficient to explain why it would be a brand new priority for Republicans to regress trans rights.
Tribalism/reactionism however does go a long way towards explaining why the GOP would not just oppose new legislation helping trans communities, but actually go so far as to pass new laws restricting their rights, as if trans people were never using bathrooms before 2018 or if there's some kind of brand new problem that requires blocking medical care for them. It makes a lot more sense to look at the opposition through the lenses of reactionary politics and polarization -- that the GOP is lashing out against trans people in anger over the progress they have made and because their rights have become a polarizing issue.
I think you're making the mistake of conflating the motivations behind people who are fighting for trans rights and the motivations behind people who are fighting against trans rights. But the motivations between those two groups are not going to be identical.
I buy that Maslow's hierarchy of needs might maybe offer some explanation why we're finally getting around to addressing problems affecting the trans community, but is not sufficient to explain why it would be a brand new priority for Republicans to regress trans rights.
Tribalism/reactionism however does go a long way towards explaining why the GOP would not just oppose new legislation helping trans communities, but actually go so far as to pass new laws restricting their rights, as if trans people were never using bathrooms before 2018 or if there's some kind of brand new problem that requires blocking medical care for them. It makes a lot more sense to look at the opposition through the lenses of reactionary politics and polarization -- that the GOP is lashing out against trans people in anger over the progress they have made and because their rights have become a polarizing issue.
>> but is not sufficient to explain why it would be a brand new priority for Republicans to regress trans rights.
Because 1/ adressing some issues means not adressing other.. the public debate cannot handle so many things at once and 2/ from the point of view of a french person america is particularly confrontational when defending pretty much... anything.
In practical terms, republicans feel for 1/ that if you defend trans rights, you are going to forget more important fights such as the obesity crisis, the opioid crisis, the absurdity of your healthcare system, the economy. And for 2/, that they are going to be shamed if they disagree with the actual issues such as letting men compete in women categories.. so yeah i have 0 problems with trans people but understand the republicans motivation.
Im rather left but i feel the left has too much moved to defend minorities issues, wich is a shame because historically left wing movements were workers rights which were more about the mass vs the few "elite". Thats why, in france at least, a lot of the working class now vote extreme right, and in usa, trump.
Because 1/ adressing some issues means not adressing other.. the public debate cannot handle so many things at once and 2/ from the point of view of a french person america is particularly confrontational when defending pretty much... anything.
In practical terms, republicans feel for 1/ that if you defend trans rights, you are going to forget more important fights such as the obesity crisis, the opioid crisis, the absurdity of your healthcare system, the economy. And for 2/, that they are going to be shamed if they disagree with the actual issues such as letting men compete in women categories.. so yeah i have 0 problems with trans people but understand the republicans motivation.
Im rather left but i feel the left has too much moved to defend minorities issues, wich is a shame because historically left wing movements were workers rights which were more about the mass vs the few "elite". Thats why, in france at least, a lot of the working class now vote extreme right, and in usa, trump.
> if you defend trans rights, you are going to forget more important fights such as the obesity crisis, the opioid crisis, the absurdity of your healthcare system
I don't understand this argument at all.
Lots of people disagree with the Left's proposed policies on these issues, but they do have policy proposals. It's just flat-out inaccurate to argue that trans acceptance has reduced Left focus or fervor about other subjects. If anything it's the opposite, the people who are most likely to be arguing the loudest for trans rights are also most likely to be proposing large changes to our health care system, mass decriminalization of drugs, mass reform of how we police opioids and how we rehabilitate addicts, and public health laws and restructures of our food system. I can count on one hand the number trans activists I know online who aren't fiercely pro-union and fiercely in favor of raising minimum wages at a federal level.
The common argument from USA Republicans is not that the Left is too weak on these issues, it's that the Left is too radical on these issues. I don't know what experience would lead someone to believe that trans activists are less likely to be politically involved in other areas or less likely to support at the very least populist-adjacent ideas. It just does not match up with reality in the US at all.
People can criticize the far-Left activist-sphere for a lot of things, but they're definitely not rejecting populist ideas or cozying up to the elites. It's just a wild argument to make. Ask McConnell if he thinks that people like AOC aren't interested in worker rights or unions. I mean, my goodness, the position of the mainstream GOP leadership in the US right now is that the far-Left is composed of dangerous radicals who want to execute Bezos and give all of his money to his factory workers.
If what you say is the common French perspective about what attitudes are in America, then France is not getting good enough reporting about American issues or how people over here are actually arguing about them.
Similarly:
> adressing some issues means not adressing other.. the public debate cannot handle so many things at once
I don't know how this is being reported elsewhere, but to be clear, it is Republicans who are proposing these bills. More anti-trans legislation has gotten proposed in the last year alone than we had in probably the last decade. Republicans did that, not Democrats. So the idea that this is an attempt to avoid distracting from other issues just doesn't make sense, because if that's what Republicans actually believed then they wouldn't be constantly bringing the issue to the forefront of debates and passing a ton of legislation fighting against trivial issues like what bathroom someone walks into.
What would make the response make sense is if Republicans viewed petty victories like policing genitalia inside of a public restroom as victories in a broader "culture war" in which trans people symbolize a cultural enemy.
Which, look, it's fine. We can acknowledge that some things are a culture war. You bring this up yourself when you talk about the fear that allowing trans rights to progress too far will lead to people who dissent being ostracized. For Americans that is inherently a tribal fear. It is a fight over a change in cultural values and standards: a worry that a certain cultural tribe (often white, Conservative, and/or Evangelical) is losing power compared to other subgroups.
I don't understand this argument at all.
Lots of people disagree with the Left's proposed policies on these issues, but they do have policy proposals. It's just flat-out inaccurate to argue that trans acceptance has reduced Left focus or fervor about other subjects. If anything it's the opposite, the people who are most likely to be arguing the loudest for trans rights are also most likely to be proposing large changes to our health care system, mass decriminalization of drugs, mass reform of how we police opioids and how we rehabilitate addicts, and public health laws and restructures of our food system. I can count on one hand the number trans activists I know online who aren't fiercely pro-union and fiercely in favor of raising minimum wages at a federal level.
The common argument from USA Republicans is not that the Left is too weak on these issues, it's that the Left is too radical on these issues. I don't know what experience would lead someone to believe that trans activists are less likely to be politically involved in other areas or less likely to support at the very least populist-adjacent ideas. It just does not match up with reality in the US at all.
People can criticize the far-Left activist-sphere for a lot of things, but they're definitely not rejecting populist ideas or cozying up to the elites. It's just a wild argument to make. Ask McConnell if he thinks that people like AOC aren't interested in worker rights or unions. I mean, my goodness, the position of the mainstream GOP leadership in the US right now is that the far-Left is composed of dangerous radicals who want to execute Bezos and give all of his money to his factory workers.
If what you say is the common French perspective about what attitudes are in America, then France is not getting good enough reporting about American issues or how people over here are actually arguing about them.
Similarly:
> adressing some issues means not adressing other.. the public debate cannot handle so many things at once
I don't know how this is being reported elsewhere, but to be clear, it is Republicans who are proposing these bills. More anti-trans legislation has gotten proposed in the last year alone than we had in probably the last decade. Republicans did that, not Democrats. So the idea that this is an attempt to avoid distracting from other issues just doesn't make sense, because if that's what Republicans actually believed then they wouldn't be constantly bringing the issue to the forefront of debates and passing a ton of legislation fighting against trivial issues like what bathroom someone walks into.
What would make the response make sense is if Republicans viewed petty victories like policing genitalia inside of a public restroom as victories in a broader "culture war" in which trans people symbolize a cultural enemy.
Which, look, it's fine. We can acknowledge that some things are a culture war. You bring this up yourself when you talk about the fear that allowing trans rights to progress too far will lead to people who dissent being ostracized. For Americans that is inherently a tribal fear. It is a fight over a change in cultural values and standards: a worry that a certain cultural tribe (often white, Conservative, and/or Evangelical) is losing power compared to other subgroups.
Ok fine for point 1/ but you didnt answer to point 2/ which is kinda the most important ;).
P.s. Most people in france do not think that much about america, its just my take from watching debates on HN and the trump election. We have A LOT less identity politics daily, so trans right has just never really been on the radar / something people are going to care opposing.
P.s. Most people in france do not think that much about america, its just my take from watching debates on HN and the trump election. We have A LOT less identity politics daily, so trans right has just never really been on the radar / something people are going to care opposing.
> but you didnt answer to point 2
Sure I did:
> You bring this up yourself when you talk about the fear that allowing trans rights to progress too far will lead to people who dissent being ostracized. For Americans that is inherently a tribal fear. It is a fight over a change in cultural values and standards: a worry that a certain cultural tribe (often white, Conservative, and/or Evangelical) is losing power compared to other subgroups.
I don't disagree with you that people have this as a fear, but it is a tribal fear, it's a fear of turning into the outgroup. In America, anti-trans legislation seeks to mitigate certain demographics' fear by othering the groups that "threaten" them. The anti-trans laws that get passed because of that fear are passed with the intention of slowing down and hurting what Republicans have designated as the enemy tribe (in this case, the trans community).
It's hard for me to think of anything more tribalistic than viewing an entire demographic as a threat, and then actively taking away their rights in an attempt to reverse cultural change.
Sure I did:
> You bring this up yourself when you talk about the fear that allowing trans rights to progress too far will lead to people who dissent being ostracized. For Americans that is inherently a tribal fear. It is a fight over a change in cultural values and standards: a worry that a certain cultural tribe (often white, Conservative, and/or Evangelical) is losing power compared to other subgroups.
I don't disagree with you that people have this as a fear, but it is a tribal fear, it's a fear of turning into the outgroup. In America, anti-trans legislation seeks to mitigate certain demographics' fear by othering the groups that "threaten" them. The anti-trans laws that get passed because of that fear are passed with the intention of slowing down and hurting what Republicans have designated as the enemy tribe (in this case, the trans community).
It's hard for me to think of anything more tribalistic than viewing an entire demographic as a threat, and then actively taking away their rights in an attempt to reverse cultural change.
Of course its tribalistic, but you seem to think only one side is. Both side are tribalistic in that case, its the point of the "cancel culture".. when you can lose your job for voicing conservative opinions, no wonder you turn to voting trump.
Im not sure conservatives are the one who started it. Trump merely surfed on (tho amplified) an existing tribalistic divide.
From a french person pov, the polarity and violence between is literally insane considering you guys mostly agreee on important (to me) issues.
Im not sure conservatives are the one who started it. Trump merely surfed on (tho amplified) an existing tribalistic divide.
From a french person pov, the polarity and violence between is literally insane considering you guys mostly agreee on important (to me) issues.
If anything your comment is as tribalistic as one could get. Black and white viewpoints on topics, presenting your picture of reality as the correct one, with no alternative explanations allowed, cherry picking data and examples that help confirm your ideology while conveniently ignoring those that don't. You'll never admit that anything your side does could be seen as similarly "bad", just as tribal, etc. If anything, you're the one defining sides, pronouncing that either people believe the same thing as you or they're just evil people that have rejected reality wholesale, which completely eliminates all shades of grey in the issues, all discussion, all discourse.
You're not going to get anywhere with him. Look at the language. It's an obvious tell. He doesn't talk about black people or people of color, no he talks about "blacks" and "whites".
He'll never admit that the insurrection on 1/6 was a result of tribalism because it reflects poorly on the tribe he's chosen to be a member of.
People expose themselves through language.
He'll never admit that the insurrection on 1/6 was a result of tribalism because it reflects poorly on the tribe he's chosen to be a member of.
People expose themselves through language.
> If you look at the laws of practically every developed country, there is no "tribalism."
There may be no tribalism inside of developed countries. But there's lots of tribalism between groups of developed countries and the rest of the world. Forcing all sorts of laws and customs on what they see as lesser countries. Sort of colonialism 2.0.
There may be no tribalism inside of developed countries. But there's lots of tribalism between groups of developed countries and the rest of the world. Forcing all sorts of laws and customs on what they see as lesser countries. Sort of colonialism 2.0.
There is actually tribalism in the form of economic equality. Rich people only hang out with rich people. Poor only with the poor, etc.
What does a rich person need to do to be segregated from society? Simply go to a expensive restaurant or country club.
What does a rich person need to do to be segregated from society? Simply go to a expensive restaurant or country club.
There’s a distinction in the article, I think, in that tribalism is rooted in anti-egalitarianism that your comment doesn’t address. You can go to different restaurants without thinking less of another person.
Differing tastes/hobbies/actions is not enough to meet the criteria of tribalism, less we fracture into “pineapple on pizza vs no pineapple” tribes.
Differing tastes/hobbies/actions is not enough to meet the criteria of tribalism, less we fracture into “pineapple on pizza vs no pineapple” tribes.
Eventually it is different tastes in expressions, different hobbies as customs and different political actions.
> If he bothered to spell out in detail what he means by "tribalism,"
He did though:
> Under conditions of real or perceived out-group threats involving competition for scarce resources, for example, the disposition for tribalist and exclusivist responses is triggered [...]
I suspect that the existence of country borders and ethnic identities is safe as long as they don't support themselves on the fear of the "outside world" and the "other".
He did though:
> Under conditions of real or perceived out-group threats involving competition for scarce resources, for example, the disposition for tribalist and exclusivist responses is triggered [...]
I suspect that the existence of country borders and ethnic identities is safe as long as they don't support themselves on the fear of the "outside world" and the "other".
The central premise of the argument is false.
People involved in the insurrection, weren't going against universally agreed moral standards — i.e. the need for democracy.
While I don't agree with their motivation or interpretation, these people felt that democracy was being attacked. It was a desire to uphold moral principles that fuelled the raids.
People involved in the insurrection, weren't going against universally agreed moral standards — i.e. the need for democracy.
While I don't agree with their motivation or interpretation, these people felt that democracy was being attacked. It was a desire to uphold moral principles that fuelled the raids.
This article reminds me that
A) Most philosophy writings sounds like the ramblings of cranks
B) There is still a lot of value in thinking about them.
I think that this article is missing a few insights that I value. One is that I’ve come to view something like philosophical truth essentially unknowable- There may be universal truths, but proving that across all scenarios is not feasible. They may even (or likely) be contradictory. Even morality derived from written religious texts has been subject to countless interpretations and reinterpretations. This it’s best to treat morality as probabilistic- I might be highly confident that my stance is correct, but I must always accept that I may be wrong and update on new information.
The other is that authors desire to “give up tribalism” is too simplistic. Tribalism is deeply intertwined with identity, and I don’t think it’s possible to get humans to give up on the concept of identity. However, identity is a complex multilayered thing. I identify as an engineer, as an American, as a man, as a Catholic, as an ethnic Jew, as a Seahawks fan, as a skier, as an alumnus, and many other things. These groups do not share a common morality, but I find ways of coping and moving between them. I think we'd have more success getting people to embrace multiple identities and seeking tolerance between them then to abandon tribe seeking behavior.
I think that this article is missing a few insights that I value. One is that I’ve come to view something like philosophical truth essentially unknowable- There may be universal truths, but proving that across all scenarios is not feasible. They may even (or likely) be contradictory. Even morality derived from written religious texts has been subject to countless interpretations and reinterpretations. This it’s best to treat morality as probabilistic- I might be highly confident that my stance is correct, but I must always accept that I may be wrong and update on new information.
The other is that authors desire to “give up tribalism” is too simplistic. Tribalism is deeply intertwined with identity, and I don’t think it’s possible to get humans to give up on the concept of identity. However, identity is a complex multilayered thing. I identify as an engineer, as an American, as a man, as a Catholic, as an ethnic Jew, as a Seahawks fan, as a skier, as an alumnus, and many other things. These groups do not share a common morality, but I find ways of coping and moving between them. I think we'd have more success getting people to embrace multiple identities and seeking tolerance between them then to abandon tribe seeking behavior.
> One is that I’ve come to view something like philosophical truth essentially unknowable
"Any human life holds the same intrinsic value".
To me this looks like a moral absolute that "can be known". :)
There can be discussions on the side of it about how this "value" can come to fruition, or how it can be extended to encompass all sentient life, or just all life, but you can take it as it is and it represents an objective moral absolute that has no influence from "the inside", as prof. Fitzpatrick put it. Do you think I am wrong?
"Any human life holds the same intrinsic value".
To me this looks like a moral absolute that "can be known". :)
There can be discussions on the side of it about how this "value" can come to fruition, or how it can be extended to encompass all sentient life, or just all life, but you can take it as it is and it represents an objective moral absolute that has no influence from "the inside", as prof. Fitzpatrick put it. Do you think I am wrong?
[deleted]
The premise is quite weird, because we're not "cut out". We've evolved, and still evolving.
The best thing evolution did to us is to make a lot of our behaviors learned. So how we perceive morality is something we can learn, and we can pass onto generations, basically recreating the concept of evolution through culture, at a much faster pace.
The article claims we need to give up tribalism to get there. I disagree. Tribalism is a powerful instinct that can be used for good or bad. We need to stick with tribalism, but make everyone part of the same tribe.
The best thing evolution did to us is to make a lot of our behaviors learned. So how we perceive morality is something we can learn, and we can pass onto generations, basically recreating the concept of evolution through culture, at a much faster pace.
The article claims we need to give up tribalism to get there. I disagree. Tribalism is a powerful instinct that can be used for good or bad. We need to stick with tribalism, but make everyone part of the same tribe.
> We need to stick with tribalism, but make everyone part of the same tribe.
How is that different than giving up tribalism?
How is that different than giving up tribalism?
Because you still have things you're for and against. But they shouldn't be aligned along trivial lines like sports, religion and politics. And yeah I know calling these "trivial" sounds odd, but they really are.
On the contrary I think splitting society on trivial lines is exactly what we need to encourage. It’s healthy and beneficial. Not everyone has to care about the same sports, the same hobbies, the same tv shows or even the same politics.
Two people can support different football teams, but still serve in the same army side by side, or work for the same company. They can support different politics and even be friends. Yes really.
Erasing group identities is user dumb. Why not just promote and encourage tolerant civilised behaviour. Since when did that become unthinkable?
Well, we need to buckle down and think it. That is the way forward.
Two people can support different football teams, but still serve in the same army side by side, or work for the same company. They can support different politics and even be friends. Yes really.
Erasing group identities is user dumb. Why not just promote and encourage tolerant civilised behaviour. Since when did that become unthinkable?
Well, we need to buckle down and think it. That is the way forward.
There's a balance in there that needs to be struck on practical grounds. You don't get groups without in-group bias. You don't get in-group bias without prejudice. Getting rid of groups/tribes/whatever is obviously impossible, but the more you temper how much human identity is derived from them, the more you reduce the downstream negative (and positive) effects.
They aren't all good, and they aren't all bad, like everything else. You can't have all the good without the bad unfortunately.
They aren't all good, and they aren't all bad, like everything else. You can't have all the good without the bad unfortunately.
I don't get how that's tribalism but with everyone in the same tribe.
... and who ensures that everybody has for and against the same things? Even twins raised together sometimes end up complete opposites.
Everything is trivial?
Tribalism necessitates an “other”. If we discovered intelligent life on other planets and were suddenly given that “other”, I imagine humans would very quickly all come together as the same tribe. Minor differences between humans (including nationality) would stop mattering in less than a lifetime.
Yes it needs "other". We can however define this "other" intelligently to encircle the negative phenomena of society and define the rest as the society we are. And hopefully it doesn't split even parents and children or husbands and wives like it does right now, based in silly things like sports, religion and politics. By saying this I've pretty much killed my cred for anyone reading this in the US right now. But that's kind of the problem.
> By saying this I've pretty much killed my cred for anyone reading this in the US right now.
Because you're saying that we need to unite and expel the "negative," but you're either suggesting that we don't use any criteria for that, or you're using a special definition of "religion and politics" that doesn't encompass all forms of human organization and ranges of perceptions of our environment.
I suppose this is just another suggestion that we use rational, objective criteria, like the ones the person making the suggestion uses (when they're at their self-assessed best.) Once we're using those criteria, uniting to eradicate the "other" is fully rationalized, er, rational.
Because you're saying that we need to unite and expel the "negative," but you're either suggesting that we don't use any criteria for that, or you're using a special definition of "religion and politics" that doesn't encompass all forms of human organization and ranges of perceptions of our environment.
I suppose this is just another suggestion that we use rational, objective criteria, like the ones the person making the suggestion uses (when they're at their self-assessed best.) Once we're using those criteria, uniting to eradicate the "other" is fully rationalized, er, rational.
You know, I think the "rational" approach is completely hopeless actually. You need a rational frame, but you can't inspire people by telling them how it's rational to do what you want them to do.
Tribalism doesn't necessitate an other, that's just where our understanding is at, imo. I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but the amount of deceptive and straw man arguments I see between the constituents of both is a real spectacle. For instance, try mentioning Democrats or Progressives by name in criticism anywhere and you'll get a flood of negative reactions, even if it's a mild criticism or obvious behavioral note. If you mention the two, you "must" be the other right? Yet this forum has a lot of independents, which I think is fairly well known. One could argue people are tired of hearing groups cast broadly, but wide criticism of Republicans seems to be fairly in-game still.
I think if you commit yourself to listening to critique then the "other" fades away. If you commit yourself to the party, or inextricable party ideals then the other is always a reasonable option to reach for.
I think if you commit yourself to listening to critique then the "other" fades away. If you commit yourself to the party, or inextricable party ideals then the other is always a reasonable option to reach for.
Unless those aliens were some kind of threat I don't think most people would care on jot and would certainly not cease looking at people from across the river, round the corner, of different colour, height, car type, wealth, etc., as inferior.
We are each members of many tribes not just one.
We are each members of many tribes not just one.
>We need to stick with tribalism, but make everyone part of the same tribe.
That sounds completely psychotic to me.
That sounds completely psychotic to me.
Well in this case we can make the aliens I'm talking to part of the other tribe. Down with the aliens.
I think what Enginerrrd is calling psychotic is that there's no way to, as you say, "make someone part of the same tribe" without employing a great deal of force to coerce (and crush) people.
I didn't intent to say we need to "crush" people into changing, rather the definition of our tribes should change.
You know, when a president says "we gotta unite the nation" in a speech, that's kinda what they're trying to do. Except just saying "oh yeah, let's unite" falls quite short of achieving that goal.
But no, it's not about coercing and crushing anyone.
You know, when a president says "we gotta unite the nation" in a speech, that's kinda what they're trying to do. Except just saying "oh yeah, let's unite" falls quite short of achieving that goal.
But no, it's not about coercing and crushing anyone.
Absolutely.
IMHO, the best outcomes come from moral, economic, political systems competing with each other.
Show me an instance of purity and a lack of competition of ideas that ever turned out well. It always turns out tyrannical, hypocritical, and oppressive. Always.
Diversity of thought, as taboo as it might be to say today, is more important than what people tend to think of when thinking of diversity.
But it can't be so diverse than millions of people are all going their rabid individualistic path. It needs to be a competition and inter-influence of tribes
IMHO, the best outcomes come from moral, economic, political systems competing with each other.
Show me an instance of purity and a lack of competition of ideas that ever turned out well. It always turns out tyrannical, hypocritical, and oppressive. Always.
Diversity of thought, as taboo as it might be to say today, is more important than what people tend to think of when thinking of diversity.
But it can't be so diverse than millions of people are all going their rabid individualistic path. It needs to be a competition and inter-influence of tribes
What you're witnessing in the US is not systems competing on their merit, but rather competing by throwing money at various social manipulation techniques, misinformation campaigns and so on.
That's not diversity of thought. That's lack of thought, with a few different colors of paint on each side.
Tribalism isn't merely "competing ideas". It's literally the tribal members suppressing their own thought process in order to align WITH their tribe and AGAINST the other tribe. This alignment makes otherwise intelligent individuals collectively quite stupid and easy to mislead and manipulate.
That's not diversity of thought. That's lack of thought, with a few different colors of paint on each side.
Tribalism isn't merely "competing ideas". It's literally the tribal members suppressing their own thought process in order to align WITH their tribe and AGAINST the other tribe. This alignment makes otherwise intelligent individuals collectively quite stupid and easy to mislead and manipulate.
Arguably, that is what we've seen happening throughout history - keeping the conceptual intuitive tribalism but significantly extending what the "tribe" means.
The basics of tribalism comes either from isolated tribes (generally under Dunbar's number) for hunter-gatherers or, later with agriculture, extended family units/clans - where you have both close blood relations and know each other.
Then we see city-states and various unions of many tribes (e.g. for nomadic steppe peoples) forming a much larger shared identity that is using the same behavior and loyalty principles, but you're much more distantly related and can't know everyone anymore.
And this starts a trend of the "larger tribe" intervening in the "smaller tribes" to prevent conflict with them and have individuals of different "subtribes" interact between tribes with a shared goal instead of defending the tribal identity; they start punishing raids and violence between the "subtribes", and form a larger shared identity based on culture, religion, etc.
Fast forward a few centuries and we see the great "religious tribes" unifying many decentralized rulers; and then we see the age of nationalism in 1800s which in many cases unified many smaller states with aggressive unification of their identities and elimination of dialects so that the "tribe that includes everyone" is stronger, but despite the suppression of "smaller tribes" IMHO it's quite clear that the peak nationalism was also very much a peak of tribalism attitudes.
In that regard, humanism is essentially nothing else than treating all humans as a single tribe, and it is an extension of the same trend and practice; we know that dissolving the smaller tribes in order the larger tribe stronger works and is possible as we have done that before; though, often the unification was facilitated and driven by external threats.
The basics of tribalism comes either from isolated tribes (generally under Dunbar's number) for hunter-gatherers or, later with agriculture, extended family units/clans - where you have both close blood relations and know each other.
Then we see city-states and various unions of many tribes (e.g. for nomadic steppe peoples) forming a much larger shared identity that is using the same behavior and loyalty principles, but you're much more distantly related and can't know everyone anymore.
And this starts a trend of the "larger tribe" intervening in the "smaller tribes" to prevent conflict with them and have individuals of different "subtribes" interact between tribes with a shared goal instead of defending the tribal identity; they start punishing raids and violence between the "subtribes", and form a larger shared identity based on culture, religion, etc.
Fast forward a few centuries and we see the great "religious tribes" unifying many decentralized rulers; and then we see the age of nationalism in 1800s which in many cases unified many smaller states with aggressive unification of their identities and elimination of dialects so that the "tribe that includes everyone" is stronger, but despite the suppression of "smaller tribes" IMHO it's quite clear that the peak nationalism was also very much a peak of tribalism attitudes.
In that regard, humanism is essentially nothing else than treating all humans as a single tribe, and it is an extension of the same trend and practice; we know that dissolving the smaller tribes in order the larger tribe stronger works and is possible as we have done that before; though, often the unification was facilitated and driven by external threats.
> In that regard, humanism is essentially nothing else than treating all humans as a single tribe, and it is an extension of the same trend and practice; we know that dissolving the smaller tribes in order the larger tribe stronger works and is possible as we have done that before; though, often the unification was facilitated and driven by external threats.
Sure, but it always comes at the expense of "smaller" tribes. Either in the form of losing their language and culture, or their economic independence. Even within countries you get tribalism in many forms, whether it be accents/dialects or their morality that varies state to state. So making people to conform to a single ideology [in public] only works with tyranny. Of course secretly they resent it.
Sure, but it always comes at the expense of "smaller" tribes. Either in the form of losing their language and culture, or their economic independence. Even within countries you get tribalism in many forms, whether it be accents/dialects or their morality that varies state to state. So making people to conform to a single ideology [in public] only works with tyranny. Of course secretly they resent it.
While it comes at the expense of the "smaller tribes", IMHO it's better for the individuals at these smaller tribes, as it frees them from the limitations and even tyranny of these smaller tribes - e.g. an extreme case is the "honor killing" culture, or LGBT people who happen to be born in a "strong small tribe" and need the wider society to protect them from their local community.
Looking at the contrast between different societies, it often seems that the fragmented tribalism is actively harmful to how pleasant it is to live in that society. For example, in places where "clan identity" matters, that clan mentality is a direct driver for nepotism and corruption which makes life worse for the larger community; countries where different ethnic groups have a strong "tribal" behavior tend to have a lot of inter-community conflict, discriminatory behavior and sometimes even violence up to the point of genocide; and I'd argue that it is better for individuals to live in a more integrated larger tribe without that inter-community conflict even if it does make these smaller tribes weaker or perhaps irrelevant.
Looking at the contrast between different societies, it often seems that the fragmented tribalism is actively harmful to how pleasant it is to live in that society. For example, in places where "clan identity" matters, that clan mentality is a direct driver for nepotism and corruption which makes life worse for the larger community; countries where different ethnic groups have a strong "tribal" behavior tend to have a lot of inter-community conflict, discriminatory behavior and sometimes even violence up to the point of genocide; and I'd argue that it is better for individuals to live in a more integrated larger tribe without that inter-community conflict even if it does make these smaller tribes weaker or perhaps irrelevant.
[deleted]
As much as I think global unity would be nice, it reminds me of hearing that cows once their herd reaches a certain size split off into two herds [1]. If I'm remembering correctly, a mathematician, biologist and cattle farmer all saw reasons it might be good for the cows. I wouldn't be surprised if the same forces acting on the cows are acting on us.
[1] https://www.stitcher.com/show/odd-lots/episode/52-what-math-...
[1] https://www.stitcher.com/show/odd-lots/episode/52-what-math-...
I see where you're coming from, and I'm not offended by being compared to cows... that being said, this connection seems very tenuous. This is really comparing apples to oranges here
The best example is West-based colonies in the new world. Why did Canada or Australia went their own way? Why is USA seemingly splitting apart? UK?
If someone would manage to establish single world order, it's only a matter of time when it would fracture into pieces.
If someone would manage to establish single world order, it's only a matter of time when it would fracture into pieces.
The trend is steadily towards a more inclusive global tribe over all of human history. There aren't many objective signs that this trend is reversing in any nontrivial way. It wasn't long ago that Europe was constantly engaged in warfare within itself. Compare today with 50 years ago or 150 years ago.
We've arguably backslid in some places over a 20 year lookback but those backslides are fairly minor in historical context.
We've arguably backslid in some places over a 20 year lookback but those backslides are fairly minor in historical context.
Not so long ago vast majority of Europe was controlled by a single extended family. Now it's gone.
Roman empire collapsed. HRE collapsed. Austro-Hungary collapsed. Tsarist Russia + Soviet union collapsed. Ottoman empire collapsed. UK is still slowly collapsing. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth went separate ways. Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia split. Roman catholic church was pretty close to superstate at it's height.
Roman empire collapsed. HRE collapsed. Austro-Hungary collapsed. Tsarist Russia + Soviet union collapsed. Ottoman empire collapsed. UK is still slowly collapsing. Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth went separate ways. Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia split. Roman catholic church was pretty close to superstate at it's height.
>Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth went separate ways
* Was partitioned by external forces and eradicated from existence for decades.
* Was partitioned by external forces and eradicated from existence for decades.
... and decided to not re-unite after WW1. Even though some forces did put in a lot of work behind that.
There will always be leaders branching off with their own tribes. No doubt you've experienced that in microcosms.
At first, giving up tribalism is just the formation of another tribe. Then there become multiple tribes that exist to define what it means to truly give up tribalism and so forth.
At first, giving up tribalism is just the formation of another tribe. Then there become multiple tribes that exist to define what it means to truly give up tribalism and so forth.
I agree with everything except the last part, because it sounds really warm tummy but by definition is impossible.
The tribalism the author uses is the same created by your argument that evolution forged our behaviors. The tribalism evolution forged is a space-dependent concept, it's almost literally those who exist within 5 meters of myself, who eat, shit and sleep with me.
I don't necessarily think we need to ditch it, it might be useful for something. But we need an equivalent for the whole species, independent of time, planet or place, and also as someone else said, to include other species.
Ol' tribalism needs to be taken down to the cellar, mercilessly beaten and left chained there until we are attacked by aliens or something else accordingly.
The tribalism the author uses is the same created by your argument that evolution forged our behaviors. The tribalism evolution forged is a space-dependent concept, it's almost literally those who exist within 5 meters of myself, who eat, shit and sleep with me.
I don't necessarily think we need to ditch it, it might be useful for something. But we need an equivalent for the whole species, independent of time, planet or place, and also as someone else said, to include other species.
Ol' tribalism needs to be taken down to the cellar, mercilessly beaten and left chained there until we are attacked by aliens or something else accordingly.
> So how we perceive morality is something we can learn, and we can pass onto generations, basically recreating the concept of evolution through culture, at a much faster pace.
That does not really work since nothing would stop people from changing their minds years later, especially when it feeds into the human instinct of tribalism. See WW1, WW2, how the nazi party rose, etc.
> We've evolved, and still evolving.
Only if those with non-tribalistic tendencies outbreed the rest of the population.
That does not really work since nothing would stop people from changing their minds years later, especially when it feeds into the human instinct of tribalism. See WW1, WW2, how the nazi party rose, etc.
> We've evolved, and still evolving.
Only if those with non-tribalistic tendencies outbreed the rest of the population.
Hard to even approach answering this question without some kind of workable definition of "objective" and "universal" and "morality." What does a person mean when they say all these words together? My best guess would be something like, "All people would agree that any action recommended by this morality are right, and any action prohibited by this morality are wrong, and this morality either recommends or prohibits all possible actions." To me, the answer to this question is pretty obvious: there is no possible moral system that matches this definition.
You're quite right. Arguably, an attempt at formulating an objective morality has been made: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism . However, it is anathema on HN.
Objectivism has little to do with objectivity, despite sharing the first nine letters. They are two entirely different concepts. Whether objectivism is preferred on HN is another unrelated question.
Objectivism has a lot to do with objectivity. I'm sorry if this is news for you. How reality is perceived and how objective knowledge is attained are at the core of this doctrine -- without these one cannot even talk about rational pursuit of self-interest.
I wasn't even asking a question about HN, just making a remark.
I wasn't even asking a question about HN, just making a remark.
I.e. objectivism has to do with objectivity, not vice versa.
The definition of objectivity simply does not reference objectivism.
The definition of objectivity simply does not reference objectivism.
Oh :) Yes, that's right. Fixed it now.
I have a suspicion that any "universal" moral framework would boil down to the halting problem at some level.
Even so, a moral framework doesn't have to be complete to be justifiably considered "objective", so attempting to find universally acceptable moral axioms may not be altogether futile.
Even so, a moral framework doesn't have to be complete to be justifiably considered "objective", so attempting to find universally acceptable moral axioms may not be altogether futile.
Another mediocre article on morality. If you're interested, research universal morality in Buddhist sutras. By far the best analysis of morality, even compared to purely logical works. Modern-day stuff from what i've seen has been low quality.
For this article, it fails to remember that for every unbiased observer there is an equally biased human at the root.
For this article, it fails to remember that for every unbiased observer there is an equally biased human at the root.
gher-shyu3i(1)
The article says we need to abandon tribalism yet the article is replete with tribal narrative.
There is no universal morality. Morals are likely partial genetic and partially cultural. Natural selection selects for cultural values ("morals") that allow a culture to survive to destroy other cultures.
Random morals are constantly being created - mutations. They sometimes are negative for cultural survival, sometimes neutral, and sometimes positive.
Based on a changing environment morals needed for a culture to survive will also change.
Over a long enough time, some moralistic behavior has become embedded in our DNA. (e.g. protecting children). Moralistic behavior that is embedded in DNA is probably the closest thing we have to "universal morality".
Controversial examples might be procreating at 13. When people died at a much younger age, it was not immoral to procreate as soon as we were able. Now it is morally abhorrent. Some cultures still allow it. It is absolutely not universally immoral.
Random morals are constantly being created - mutations. They sometimes are negative for cultural survival, sometimes neutral, and sometimes positive.
Based on a changing environment morals needed for a culture to survive will also change.
Over a long enough time, some moralistic behavior has become embedded in our DNA. (e.g. protecting children). Moralistic behavior that is embedded in DNA is probably the closest thing we have to "universal morality".
Controversial examples might be procreating at 13. When people died at a much younger age, it was not immoral to procreate as soon as we were able. Now it is morally abhorrent. Some cultures still allow it. It is absolutely not universally immoral.
You seem to be proclaiming universal truths and morals.
The choice of the word universal is a bit ironic, as the nature of the (physical) universe prevents such a thing from being possible.
Unified morality, like a unified concept of what is “human”, is a temporary consequence of centralization in a single location. Right now, that’s Earth. But good luck maintaining a uniform conception of right and wrong when it takes a few decades to get to the next civilization.
For that matter, good luck maintaining a unified concept of human being. Mars, for instance, has a number of qualities that will select for certain traits over others. A colony developing there, sufficiently isolated, would start to develop into a variant quite unlike us earthlings.
https://youtu.be/0q_B5X7PBHA
Unified morality, like a unified concept of what is “human”, is a temporary consequence of centralization in a single location. Right now, that’s Earth. But good luck maintaining a uniform conception of right and wrong when it takes a few decades to get to the next civilization.
For that matter, good luck maintaining a unified concept of human being. Mars, for instance, has a number of qualities that will select for certain traits over others. A colony developing there, sufficiently isolated, would start to develop into a variant quite unlike us earthlings.
https://youtu.be/0q_B5X7PBHA
> The choice of the word universal is a bit ironic, as the nature of the (physical) universe prevents such a thing from being possible.
It might look improbable or unlikely, but I don't see how it is impossible.
Unity in the underlying organizing principles (logos) of the universe, the idea of pantheistic view of a "god" as "the one" is at least as old as neoplatonism. However far from achieving a full grasp, all life forms find approximating to reality to be highly adaptive and valuable. As such, there could as well be a continuity between our moral values and general structural functional organization of the universe. Even though we are hopelessly unable to compute our way towards it, we could have been incrementally approximating it (while also occasionally deceiving ourselves). One could say the evolution of consciousness was adaptive towards processing these calculations, but by no means a requisite to have some contact with and understanding of a part of reality.
It might look improbable or unlikely, but I don't see how it is impossible.
Unity in the underlying organizing principles (logos) of the universe, the idea of pantheistic view of a "god" as "the one" is at least as old as neoplatonism. However far from achieving a full grasp, all life forms find approximating to reality to be highly adaptive and valuable. As such, there could as well be a continuity between our moral values and general structural functional organization of the universe. Even though we are hopelessly unable to compute our way towards it, we could have been incrementally approximating it (while also occasionally deceiving ourselves). One could say the evolution of consciousness was adaptive towards processing these calculations, but by no means a requisite to have some contact with and understanding of a part of reality.
Correct, and I should have used the word unified here as I did later in my comment. It is possible that certain civilizations, without coming into any contact with each other, would arrive at similar moral conclusions based on observing nature.
But I still don’t think this is sustainable once we factor in evolution and adaptations to different environments.
But I still don’t think this is sustainable once we factor in evolution and adaptations to different environments.
I must invoke John Stuart Mill when it comes to morality and politics. With 138 capitol & metro police injured, there's no doubt some number of protestors should face justice for their harm to others. That is where the accountability will hopefully end. In almost every other respect the January 6th 2021 was a quintessentially American expression of liberty with overwhelming historical precedent.
Time and again aggrieved citizens on both sides have try to be heard by delaying political fait accompli. From city counsels to county seats, state legislatures to native reservations, the US capital to foreign embassies... naive believers, the agitated, sometimes driven by agent provocateurs have risked prison and worse to remind representatives that victory in a vote doesn't erase diversity of belief; and that governance is more effective when the aggrieved are sincerely heard.
Tribalism (on both sides) is all earmuffs and blindfolds that results in shortsighted public policy, and devaluation of different thoughts & tastes.
Time and again aggrieved citizens on both sides have try to be heard by delaying political fait accompli. From city counsels to county seats, state legislatures to native reservations, the US capital to foreign embassies... naive believers, the agitated, sometimes driven by agent provocateurs have risked prison and worse to remind representatives that victory in a vote doesn't erase diversity of belief; and that governance is more effective when the aggrieved are sincerely heard.
Tribalism (on both sides) is all earmuffs and blindfolds that results in shortsighted public policy, and devaluation of different thoughts & tastes.
There can't be a closure to that issue unless the ringleaders face punishment.
They won't.
So there won't be.
The same politicians who pilloried Hillary Clinton for 2 years over the Benghazi incident want nothing to do with an investigation of the events of Jan 6th. They know who their political base is.
They won't.
So there won't be.
The same politicians who pilloried Hillary Clinton for 2 years over the Benghazi incident want nothing to do with an investigation of the events of Jan 6th. They know who their political base is.
Universal morality would require the same reality for everybody, quite utopian..
Tribes are shaped by a common reality, friends and enemies, and the common reality of those who stormed the Capitol was created by the conspiracy scene they followed and participated in.
Tribes are shaped by a common reality, friends and enemies, and the common reality of those who stormed the Capitol was created by the conspiracy scene they followed and participated in.
I’m pretty sure there is something approaching universal truth out there, and it involves power relationships between people and groups of people. After all, a single person alone on a desert island can’t do much that really qualifies as good or evil, unless someone else is there to be affected by it. Morality exists between people and in the way they relate to each other.
My personal view is that decisions that affect the individual should be left to the individual, decisions that affect groups should be made by those groups (in a democratic fashion). Of course the devil is in the details.
My personal view is that decisions that affect the individual should be left to the individual, decisions that affect groups should be made by those groups (in a democratic fashion). Of course the devil is in the details.
The article begins with saying there are two ways to discuss morality: phenomenological morality, and evolutionary morality, but many (most?) comments here are of the format, “morality is Darwinian” like it’s a panacea for the whole discussion. It’s really the much less important side of the discussion. Just because we evolved doesn’t mean we don’t genuinely prefer certain conscious experiences to others.
The author starts by expressing a severely limited ontology, sets up a convenient dichotomy, and then assembles some straw men from some exclusively secular and materialist constraints. For what is this the sugar pill? Ah, right. The homogenaity and fungibility of humanity, resistance to a single global authority is futile, give up what you have, etc.
His is view is the seed of this universal morality, surely?
His is view is the seed of this universal morality, surely?
Any sufficiently universal morality must include the impact our actions/inactions have on animals (or any other entity capable of "experiencing" some reality). We are nowhere near such a concept, and almost assuredly never will be.
We're moving closer to it.
Vegetarianism and veganism used to be much more fringe just a few decades ago than they are now.
Animal right groups and laws didn't exist until relatively recently as well.
Understanding and valuing ecology and every species role in it as well is relatively new (at least among non-indigenous people) and making a difference in how we treat animals as well.
There's also a lot of research in to how animals view and understand the world, how they communicate, how much they understand and feel, and how they differ (or don't) from humans. That's also opening people's eyes.
I'm usually pretty pessimistic, but on this issue I am cautiously optimistic that we are moving in the right direction.
Vegetarianism and veganism used to be much more fringe just a few decades ago than they are now.
Animal right groups and laws didn't exist until relatively recently as well.
Understanding and valuing ecology and every species role in it as well is relatively new (at least among non-indigenous people) and making a difference in how we treat animals as well.
There's also a lot of research in to how animals view and understand the world, how they communicate, how much they understand and feel, and how they differ (or don't) from humans. That's also opening people's eyes.
I'm usually pretty pessimistic, but on this issue I am cautiously optimistic that we are moving in the right direction.
After millennia, humans still hate each other on no other basis than skin pigmentation despite our brains being hard-wired to be socially cooperative with other members of our species to boost chances of survival. I have heard arguments against animal rights where the key argument was that humans are intellectually superior and thus it is our right to treat animals however it conveniences us. As smart as some people are, most people are not very sophisticated, especially when it comes to morality, which people mainly wield as a matter of convenience to themselves. My faith in humanity has declined the more I've seen what it's capable of.
Tellingly (to me), despite some non-negligible percentage of the population becoming more sensitive to the plight of animals, the scale of animal cruelty today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. I see the modest gains in the population of vegetarians as a pyrrhic victory that would not have been possible with, perversely, the common knowledge of the current scale and scope of modern animal cruelty.
Tellingly (to me), despite some non-negligible percentage of the population becoming more sensitive to the plight of animals, the scale of animal cruelty today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. I see the modest gains in the population of vegetarians as a pyrrhic victory that would not have been possible with, perversely, the common knowledge of the current scale and scope of modern animal cruelty.
> Tellingly...the scale of animal cruelty today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era.
"Tellingly"? What does it tell? The scale of X (for almost all X) today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. I wish when people say something is telling, they'd say what it tells them, but they usually don't. (It's like saying "Of course" or "Obviously". Rhetorically effective maybe, but doesn't help communication. They are a kind of bluff.)
> I see the modest gains in the population of vegetarians as a pyrrhic victory that would not have been possible with, perversely, the common knowledge of the current scale and scope of modern animal cruelty.
Sorry, I really tried, but can't work out what you are trying to say here. (It feels like at least a triple-layered negative.) Could you put it more simply? Seems like you're maybe saying "If more people knew the horrors of modern animal cruelty there would be less vegetarians", but that reading makes no sense to me. It's a very confusing, unclear sentence anyway.
"Tellingly"? What does it tell? The scale of X (for almost all X) today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. I wish when people say something is telling, they'd say what it tells them, but they usually don't. (It's like saying "Of course" or "Obviously". Rhetorically effective maybe, but doesn't help communication. They are a kind of bluff.)
> I see the modest gains in the population of vegetarians as a pyrrhic victory that would not have been possible with, perversely, the common knowledge of the current scale and scope of modern animal cruelty.
Sorry, I really tried, but can't work out what you are trying to say here. (It feels like at least a triple-layered negative.) Could you put it more simply? Seems like you're maybe saying "If more people knew the horrors of modern animal cruelty there would be less vegetarians", but that reading makes no sense to me. It's a very confusing, unclear sentence anyway.
I should have said "scope", because I don't mean just by pure numbers. I mean that our current treatment of billions of animals is worse than it has ever been due to factory farming. As in, it's not just the sheer number of animals, we have somehow regressed and are more cruel to each individual animal in the name of efficiency. I think the only reason there is a higher percentage of vegetarians now is how widely publicized that information is, not because the average human has evolved and can be expected to have a moral framework which incoporates non-humans. There wouldn't be as many vegetarians if some people weren't currently being so obviously needlessly cruel.
And then there's the impact that our activities have on wildlife that we aren't intending to harm. We know we are causing harm, though, so much so that we regularly drive animals to extinction. We also know we are currently driving a mass extinction event but that seems to barely register on our list of concerns. I don't see any meaningful action right now towards addressing this. I honestly hear so, so little about it, even when we are discussing the impacts of climate change. I kind of forgot about it myself during this discussion.
So in summary, I see us as being willfully cruel to some and fully indifferent to others and ultimately I think we have gotten worse over the years, not better. If I were an animal, I would much rather have shared the planet with humans from 1000 or even 100 years ago than with humans from today, and I believe the trend continues.
Hope that clears things up.
And then there's the impact that our activities have on wildlife that we aren't intending to harm. We know we are causing harm, though, so much so that we regularly drive animals to extinction. We also know we are currently driving a mass extinction event but that seems to barely register on our list of concerns. I don't see any meaningful action right now towards addressing this. I honestly hear so, so little about it, even when we are discussing the impacts of climate change. I kind of forgot about it myself during this discussion.
So in summary, I see us as being willfully cruel to some and fully indifferent to others and ultimately I think we have gotten worse over the years, not better. If I were an animal, I would much rather have shared the planet with humans from 1000 or even 100 years ago than with humans from today, and I believe the trend continues.
Hope that clears things up.
Yeah thanks, sadly that all seems true. Not to mention fishing the oceans to exhaustion. (Vegan here for 30 years)
Why does the distinction stop with the human convention of the animal kingdom?
Is it immoral to make a plant species extinct? Is morality rooted in subjective experience?
Is it immoral to make a plant species extinct? Is morality rooted in subjective experience?
> or any other entity capable of "experiencing" some reality
I pre-answered your question about the animal kingdom.
When I say "must include" I imply only that it's necessary, not sufficient. My premise is simply that I have identified a necessary condition which will never be met.
I pre-answered your question about the animal kingdom.
When I say "must include" I imply only that it's necessary, not sufficient. My premise is simply that I have identified a necessary condition which will never be met.
I’m not trying to refute your position, just trying to clarify what it’s based upon. Why is the distinction drawn with experience? E.g., if the ultimate goal is to reduce suffering then it makes sense that experience is what matters
Yes, I think it's fair to say that the ultimate goal of my personal moral framework is to reduce suffering.
Utilitarianism is almost 300 years old and includes animals in its "circle of concern". Many people care about animal rights, and once people stop eating meat (because meat alternatives will eventually win out with price) there will be a major shift in perspective - meat eaters will be looked upon as we currently look on slave owners: doing something seriously morally wrong.
I know that individuals think this way, I'm just not convinced any society will ever get there.
Utilitarianism is orthogonal to animal rights - it analyzes and describes behavior and action with respect to some utility function, but the utility function itself is essentially arbitrary and while utilitarianism can be used to model a balance between "human utility" and "animal utility", utilitarianism itself is just as suited for a "circle of concern" that explicitly includes only the utility of humans, or perhaps even just the utility of a specific subset of humans.
The utility function is not up for grabs; it has to be axiomatically assumed and utilitarianism does not state whose utility matters and how much.
The utility function is not up for grabs; it has to be axiomatically assumed and utilitarianism does not state whose utility matters and how much.
It would be quite a perversion of utilitarianism to say "utility is defined as the pleasure experienced by white people". Jeremy Bentham, the founder of utilitarianism, advocated for animal welfare because utility is about experiences of sentient beings (which animals are).
It is true there are preference utilitarians and various other flavors, but I don't think cutting out animals outside of one's moral circle of concern can really be justified under utilitarianism.
It is true there are preference utilitarians and various other flavors, but I don't think cutting out animals outside of one's moral circle of concern can really be justified under utilitarianism.
It depends on who defines morality, which invalidates the concept of a “universal” morality. If the definer of the morality decides that human lives are the most important and it would be immoral to hold animals and plants above humans, it would produce a completely different end result.
Or they may determine that all you mention plus natural formations like lakes and mountains and rock formations deserve protection and equal protection.
That’s why this entire article is a waste of time to me.
Or they may determine that all you mention plus natural formations like lakes and mountains and rock formations deserve protection and equal protection.
That’s why this entire article is a waste of time to me.
My experience with morality is that it's definition varies from person to person even in like-groups. The illustration you and GP have painted is the same political struggle we've always had, just now painted inside morality instead of secular laws. It is wild to see secular people debating a new wave of American moralism, as if that time period wasn't bad enough the first go-around.
Agreed. There will always be people splitting hairs and vehemently thinking their views are “more correct” and “more morally correct”. That’s why I think this entire article is a waste of time. The idea of “universal morality” is fiction because everyone thinks differently.
The best course of action is never to try to find a single “universal” truth but to accept a plurality of “truths”. That’s the only way we can survive as a species.
The best course of action is never to try to find a single “universal” truth but to accept a plurality of “truths”. That’s the only way we can survive as a species.
Probably not. Almost everyone holds a core belief that precludes a universal morality, even outside of tribalism.
That is that a government is morally justified in performing actions that we would find abhorrent of performed by an individual or smaller group.
That is that a government is morally justified in performing actions that we would find abhorrent of performed by an individual or smaller group.
Isn't that the basis for a universal morality itself?
That we have chosen to collectively outsource the things we need to keep the sheer number of us alive without having to personally do them? Its not like we can return to hunter gathering because chaos would ensue.
Police, taxes, welfare and narrowed choices of how you can live are our bargain for living in large numbers and close proximity.
That we have chosen to collectively outsource the things we need to keep the sheer number of us alive without having to personally do them? Its not like we can return to hunter gathering because chaos would ensue.
Police, taxes, welfare and narrowed choices of how you can live are our bargain for living in large numbers and close proximity.
This is not a core belief that precludes universal morality, it is simply a belief educated into the masses (Ie the Sovereignty of Nation States).
Which means that other views can similarly be “educated” in.
Which means that other views can similarly be “educated” in.
What is the advantage of secular people establishing morality? This morality would need to compete with religious morality, how would one do that, and what would the motivations be?
This is only a problem for cultural relativists. Morals always exist within a cultural framework of expected behaviors. If we can agree that some behaviors are wrong (the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia for example) We can say unequivocally the west is a morally superior culture to Saudi Arabia on that point.
Dominant cultures always impose laws on subordinated cultures. In the 19th century the answer to this problem was simple. "Just go over there and make them follow our rules." These days we tie ourselves into knots doing the same thing while pretending to respect other cultures.
Dominant cultures always impose laws on subordinated cultures. In the 19th century the answer to this problem was simple. "Just go over there and make them follow our rules." These days we tie ourselves into knots doing the same thing while pretending to respect other cultures.
> If we can agree that some behaviors are wrong (the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia for example) We can say unequivocally the west is a morally superior culture to Saudi Arabia on that point.
I guess "we" is "the west." I imagine a Saudi cleric is describing a porn clip he saw on the internet to his flock, explaining how cultural relativity = the abuse of women, and that imposing the world caliphate is the greatest act of mercy imaginable.
I guess "we" is "the west." I imagine a Saudi cleric is describing a porn clip he saw on the internet to his flock, explaining how cultural relativity = the abuse of women, and that imposing the world caliphate is the greatest act of mercy imaginable.
Why Americans so care about PEACEFUL transfer of power and at the same time support bloody and dirty revolutions all around the world?
Tribal relativisme is often a strong attractor and can overcome extrinsic universality
>From this perspective, your moral judgments about the insurrection, or about some racist or sexist policy, are viewed as objects of study rather than as candidates for truth or falsity. The scientist is not here engaging with philosophical issues about the potential accuracy of moral claims. The scientist instead approaches your judgments simply as psychological facts about you, causally traceable to various influences—just as with the thoughts and feelings that led to the social injustices you’re responding to.
Am I the only one terrified of this? This type of "study" has been abused very well in the past, phrenology being just one decent parallel. People have believed bad science in the past as "good" science. There's zero reason to imagine we're immune to it in this day. Some asshat out there is going to "prove" something about a demographic and use this as a means to enforce action. Just going to throw it out there, if they already dislike a demographic, they're going to prove how they should get arbitrary punishments or re-education because, "the science says so". It takes one shitty paper to fuck things up for a long time, cough cough anti-vaxxers cough cough. An average population is dumb as hell. It's even worse if they're convinced if something was scientifically proven, even though it wasn't. Take all the bad media reports on random papers released. That chocolate diet one fucking flooded the media even though it was total trash (yes, I know it was a hoax paper to prove the media is a dumpster fire). Just imagine the political party that doesn't like you get's ahold of this narrative. Fuck it, while we're at it, is it then better for your preferred party to wield the weapon first? Does that make it morally right for anyone to wield it or just who you approve of because you're perfect at deciding someone's character?
Am I the only one terrified of this? This type of "study" has been abused very well in the past, phrenology being just one decent parallel. People have believed bad science in the past as "good" science. There's zero reason to imagine we're immune to it in this day. Some asshat out there is going to "prove" something about a demographic and use this as a means to enforce action. Just going to throw it out there, if they already dislike a demographic, they're going to prove how they should get arbitrary punishments or re-education because, "the science says so". It takes one shitty paper to fuck things up for a long time, cough cough anti-vaxxers cough cough. An average population is dumb as hell. It's even worse if they're convinced if something was scientifically proven, even though it wasn't. Take all the bad media reports on random papers released. That chocolate diet one fucking flooded the media even though it was total trash (yes, I know it was a hoax paper to prove the media is a dumpster fire). Just imagine the political party that doesn't like you get's ahold of this narrative. Fuck it, while we're at it, is it then better for your preferred party to wield the weapon first? Does that make it morally right for anyone to wield it or just who you approve of because you're perfect at deciding someone's character?
To get to a universal morality, you should first understand the universal right to life: https://blog.kareldonk.com/the-universal-right-to-life/
Even if such a thing existed, absolutely not.
>That is at least what moral practice is like when viewed “from the inside.” By that I mean your moral phenomenology as an engaged participant. This perspective presents the appearance of at least a core of basic objective and universally valid or correct moral standards we are trying to understand and to live by (even as we recognize that we will at best do so imperfectly). This is why we’re prepared to argue, often passionately, in defense of basic moral claims about social justice, for example, in a way we don’t with mere matters of taste; and it’s why we feel compelled to modify our views when someone convinces us that we have a blind spot or other error in our moral outlook.
This is a very misguided view on morality. The author doesn't know what morality is, why it exists and what actually compels us to behave the way we do. Many people who are very intelligent fail to comprehend this.
Morality is biological in origin. You think and behave, debate and contemplate morality because you are evolutionarily predisposed to do so. Morality does not exist outside of this framework.
Morality is simply a set of rules that allow us to form stable societies and biology evolved you to behave within this rule set because if you didn't your society or you would be naturally selected out. That's it.
The problem is, most people don't realize this. When people think about fairness and morality they think they are deploying their logical and conscious mind to decide the meaning of right and wrong. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is 100 percent an illusion. When you are thinking about morality you are deploying the instinctual side of your brain, the same part that triggers hunger, sexual arousal or fear.
It sounds so absurd to say this but believe it or not it can actually be logically proven that this is what the human brain is doing. I can prove to you that your entire logical framework of morality is built off a biological predetermined moral instinct that is absurdly identical to everyone else's concept of morality.
The way this is done is that the moral module in your mind is imperfect. By identifying this imperfection I can illustrate to you that like how evolutionary programming doesn't always converge at the global optimum the same has happened in the moral module of your brain. Of all our brains.
Consider a baby drowning in a pool next to you. You are wearing fashionable clothes that costs thousands of dollars. By jumping in the pool to save the baby you permanently ruin your clothes. What would be the moral thing to do?
The moral thing to do is to save the baby. The life of the baby is more important the your clothes even if it's thousands of dollars. In fact our brains will be disgusted at the person who let's the baby drown just to save thousands of dollars. Essentially the moral precept here is saving a life is worth more than a couple thousand dollars so you should always do the former.
Here is where the flaw comes in. Leave the situation the same but change some of the superficial aesthetics. The baby is no longer drowning but is now a child in Africa who is starving. This child can be saved with a donation of thousands of dollars. Is it reprehensible that you don't save the baby? Most of us reading are aware that poverty exists in Africa and that donations can save them yet most of us haven't donated a dime.
Keep in mind the premise is identical. Save a baby in exchange for sacrificing thousands of dollars. What has changed? Why does the psychopath who refused to save the drowning baby is evil and why is the person who refused to donate money less evil when the basic moral premise is exactly the same?
The answer is easy to identify. Something has changed and that change influences the moral module of our brain in an illogical way that is unresolvable.
The change is superficial... basically the location and sensory stimulus is removed. By making the baby far away in Africa and removing visual stimulus, it is no longer triggering the moral instinct in your brain. Why does this fail to trigger it? Because there is no evolutionary advantage to societies who have morals that are concerned for entities that are far away and unrelated. Your morality is associated with visual stimulus and proximity but your brain does not incorporate these axioms into your reasoning because there was never any evolutionary pressure for your brain to evolve this way. That is the inconsistent flaw. Our moral modules are not designed to correctly apply moral reasoning to subjects outside of a certain physical proximity, so our brain triggers behavior that contradicts our own reasoning.
Thus our instincts do not trigger when a baby in Africa is dying of starvation, only when a baby next to you is dying from drowning. Of course there is a gradient. Starving babies in Africa triggers far less concern then drowning babies next to you even when the cost of saving those babies is completely identical.
If I presented to you these two scenarios separately and asked you to analyze the moral logic behind each, most people would derive separate and valid logic that would condemn the person who let the baby drown and vindicate the person who let the baby in Africa die.
By presenting both scenarios to you at the same time, however, the contradiction becomes apparent and your brain is now most likely trying to contemplate the moral logic and rules that will resolve the contradiction.
My point is to tell you that the resolution and everything your brain is doing to make sense of this moral contradiction is pointless. You are giving in to instinctual behavior. The moral contradiction exists regardless of what you do because morality is an imperfect biological phenomena. There isn't a universal explanation here. These are arbitrary rules applied to arbitrary events and you attempt to resolve it is just you giving in to your biological predisposition. Same as you giving in to eating when you are hungry.
There is no point in making sense of why rocks scattered on the ground is the way that it is any more then it makes sense to resolve this moral contradiction. Like the rocks, morality is simply an arbitrary set of rules... A biological phenemona unique to humanity and not a universal phenomena intrinsic to the universe.
Once you realize this, you will see that all this language, philosophy and structure built around morality is sort of pointless. It exists to help us survive there is no deeper meaning here and any search for something deeper will likely result in you making something up without realizing it (see religion).
This is a very misguided view on morality. The author doesn't know what morality is, why it exists and what actually compels us to behave the way we do. Many people who are very intelligent fail to comprehend this.
Morality is biological in origin. You think and behave, debate and contemplate morality because you are evolutionarily predisposed to do so. Morality does not exist outside of this framework.
Morality is simply a set of rules that allow us to form stable societies and biology evolved you to behave within this rule set because if you didn't your society or you would be naturally selected out. That's it.
The problem is, most people don't realize this. When people think about fairness and morality they think they are deploying their logical and conscious mind to decide the meaning of right and wrong. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is 100 percent an illusion. When you are thinking about morality you are deploying the instinctual side of your brain, the same part that triggers hunger, sexual arousal or fear.
It sounds so absurd to say this but believe it or not it can actually be logically proven that this is what the human brain is doing. I can prove to you that your entire logical framework of morality is built off a biological predetermined moral instinct that is absurdly identical to everyone else's concept of morality.
The way this is done is that the moral module in your mind is imperfect. By identifying this imperfection I can illustrate to you that like how evolutionary programming doesn't always converge at the global optimum the same has happened in the moral module of your brain. Of all our brains.
Consider a baby drowning in a pool next to you. You are wearing fashionable clothes that costs thousands of dollars. By jumping in the pool to save the baby you permanently ruin your clothes. What would be the moral thing to do?
The moral thing to do is to save the baby. The life of the baby is more important the your clothes even if it's thousands of dollars. In fact our brains will be disgusted at the person who let's the baby drown just to save thousands of dollars. Essentially the moral precept here is saving a life is worth more than a couple thousand dollars so you should always do the former.
Here is where the flaw comes in. Leave the situation the same but change some of the superficial aesthetics. The baby is no longer drowning but is now a child in Africa who is starving. This child can be saved with a donation of thousands of dollars. Is it reprehensible that you don't save the baby? Most of us reading are aware that poverty exists in Africa and that donations can save them yet most of us haven't donated a dime.
Keep in mind the premise is identical. Save a baby in exchange for sacrificing thousands of dollars. What has changed? Why does the psychopath who refused to save the drowning baby is evil and why is the person who refused to donate money less evil when the basic moral premise is exactly the same?
The answer is easy to identify. Something has changed and that change influences the moral module of our brain in an illogical way that is unresolvable.
The change is superficial... basically the location and sensory stimulus is removed. By making the baby far away in Africa and removing visual stimulus, it is no longer triggering the moral instinct in your brain. Why does this fail to trigger it? Because there is no evolutionary advantage to societies who have morals that are concerned for entities that are far away and unrelated. Your morality is associated with visual stimulus and proximity but your brain does not incorporate these axioms into your reasoning because there was never any evolutionary pressure for your brain to evolve this way. That is the inconsistent flaw. Our moral modules are not designed to correctly apply moral reasoning to subjects outside of a certain physical proximity, so our brain triggers behavior that contradicts our own reasoning.
Thus our instincts do not trigger when a baby in Africa is dying of starvation, only when a baby next to you is dying from drowning. Of course there is a gradient. Starving babies in Africa triggers far less concern then drowning babies next to you even when the cost of saving those babies is completely identical.
If I presented to you these two scenarios separately and asked you to analyze the moral logic behind each, most people would derive separate and valid logic that would condemn the person who let the baby drown and vindicate the person who let the baby in Africa die.
By presenting both scenarios to you at the same time, however, the contradiction becomes apparent and your brain is now most likely trying to contemplate the moral logic and rules that will resolve the contradiction.
My point is to tell you that the resolution and everything your brain is doing to make sense of this moral contradiction is pointless. You are giving in to instinctual behavior. The moral contradiction exists regardless of what you do because morality is an imperfect biological phenomena. There isn't a universal explanation here. These are arbitrary rules applied to arbitrary events and you attempt to resolve it is just you giving in to your biological predisposition. Same as you giving in to eating when you are hungry.
There is no point in making sense of why rocks scattered on the ground is the way that it is any more then it makes sense to resolve this moral contradiction. Like the rocks, morality is simply an arbitrary set of rules... A biological phenemona unique to humanity and not a universal phenomena intrinsic to the universe.
Once you realize this, you will see that all this language, philosophy and structure built around morality is sort of pointless. It exists to help us survive there is no deeper meaning here and any search for something deeper will likely result in you making something up without realizing it (see religion).
I like your example and the fundament of your message that ethical decisions being made under the same meat brain machine, but I feel like you are conflating abstract reasoning about "morals" and intuitive empathizing with "moral" behaviour. To me they don't look the same.
I can say with absolute certainty that the lives of both children are morally equal, yet I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both cases. I would even agree that having a lower empathy for a child in Africa is evidence of how one is not a "moral" person, but that doesn't take away from the initial axiom: their lives have equal worth.
Apologies if my naive interpretation of your words and attempt at an explanation doesn't make the matters clearer. I think that looking into effective altruism might make more sense, the people behind it have a lengthier and better reasoned thesis.
I can say with absolute certainty that the lives of both children are morally equal, yet I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both cases. I would even agree that having a lower empathy for a child in Africa is evidence of how one is not a "moral" person, but that doesn't take away from the initial axiom: their lives have equal worth.
Apologies if my naive interpretation of your words and attempt at an explanation doesn't make the matters clearer. I think that looking into effective altruism might make more sense, the people behind it have a lengthier and better reasoned thesis.
> I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both cases.
You can help them equally that is my point. One requires you to ruin your clothes by jumping in water the other requires you spending a bit of effort locating a legit charity and sending a check. Make no mistake, your capability to donate to Africa vs. jumping into water is EXACTLY the same. That is my point.
The urgency is different, but that's an illusion. The effort and cost to save either child is exactly the same. Say your clothes is worth $20,000 and you only need to donate $5000 to save a child in Africa. Then even saving the child in Africa costs less.
This is the moral conflict. Logically you interpret the lives of both children as equal but behaviorally most people will likely only act to save the drowning baby. Even from a judgement perspective, without deep introspection people will be outraged at the person who watched the baby die and not be outraged at the millions of people who haven't donated a dime to Africa.
The judgement and behavior differs from the logic which says both lives are equal. That is the biological flaw. It basically shows that because our morality is flawed, it is then basically an arbitrary set of biological rules, not worth the time for deep analysis. This is entirely different from the fundamental laws of physics which is very much worth our time for deep analysis.
You can help them equally that is my point. One requires you to ruin your clothes by jumping in water the other requires you spending a bit of effort locating a legit charity and sending a check. Make no mistake, your capability to donate to Africa vs. jumping into water is EXACTLY the same. That is my point.
The urgency is different, but that's an illusion. The effort and cost to save either child is exactly the same. Say your clothes is worth $20,000 and you only need to donate $5000 to save a child in Africa. Then even saving the child in Africa costs less.
This is the moral conflict. Logically you interpret the lives of both children as equal but behaviorally most people will likely only act to save the drowning baby. Even from a judgement perspective, without deep introspection people will be outraged at the person who watched the baby die and not be outraged at the millions of people who haven't donated a dime to Africa.
The judgement and behavior differs from the logic which says both lives are equal. That is the biological flaw. It basically shows that because our morality is flawed, it is then basically an arbitrary set of biological rules, not worth the time for deep analysis. This is entirely different from the fundamental laws of physics which is very much worth our time for deep analysis.
OK, apologies then. In my interpretation of what you said, I considered the second example as "a child in Africa, from a multitude of others in the same conditions". As such the choice to save one would leave behind others, making the end result a lot more diluted than in the first example. Probably a manifestation of something similar to the bystander's effect.
But in the end, I think that you didn't really address my assumption that you don't distinguish between "moral behaviour" and "theoretical moral concepts" as being different. In my mind, the later can be influenced as you said by various factors as geographical proximity, but the former can be treated as axioms of a hard science.
But in the end, I think that you didn't really address my assumption that you don't distinguish between "moral behaviour" and "theoretical moral concepts" as being different. In my mind, the later can be influenced as you said by various factors as geographical proximity, but the former can be treated as axioms of a hard science.
I am making the distinction. However what you choose as an axiom in your science of morality is still a choice. You have to take what your moral instincts tell you and encode that instinct into an axiom. I can frame what I said from that perspective to help you understand.
Consider the situation I talked about and the two possible moral axioms that arise from it.
The psychopath that sat and watched the baby drown. Should he deserve any form of punishment? What should we encode as an axiom from our instinctual response to this situation? Should we just let people who sit by the pool watching the baby die not be punished? Is that the right thing to do?
What about the people who didn't donate a dime to Africa? Should they be punished? This is basically most people in the US. Should we punish everyone in the US?
Axiomatically speaking if one is punished so should the other.
This is the axiomatic conundrum. We evolved moral emotions to determine our behavior. Even when we try to interprete these emotions from an axiomatic perspective the conondrums remain on which axioms to choose. Depending on the situation neither axiom completely fits our interpretation of what is right or wrong.
Some people resolve this by choosing not to punish anyone by basing their decision on the axiom that punishment should only be reserved for murder by action not murder by inaction. However that is just an axiom you arbitrarily chose. Emotionally speaking murder by deliberate inaction is something everyone feels is fundamentally wrong as well and can be shaped into an axiom. The problem is this axiom conflicts with our instincts that are telling us that the people who killed starving kids in Africa by refusing to donate money are not guilty of murder.
There are other moral situations that can hijack our brain. Consider a train that is about to run over and kill 5 people tied to the track. You can save those 5 people by pulling a switch causing the track branch to switch to another lane. This lane only has one person tied to the track. Do you pull the switch? Save 5 people or save 1 person? By default the train will run over 5 people.
Think about your decision before I adjust the parameters. Most people choose to save 5 people over saving 1 person and they will flip the switch.
Imagine the same train. The track is now linear with no branch. 5 people are tied to the track. You see a really big fat man standing next to the track. You can save all 5 people by sneakily pushing the fatman onto the track. The fatman will die but his weight will stop the train saving the 5 people. What do you do?
The situation is the same, only superficial parameters have changed.
Basically the situation is this: you have the choice of saving the lives of 5 people or 1 person. Axiomatically we by default think that you should save 5 people over 1 person.
However while both situations are the same we feel the the second situation tends to feel wrong. It feels like murder if you save 5 people. The axiom of murder by action and the axiom of saving 5 people over 1 person in this situation form a moral paradox and the feeling of what's wrong or what's right changes depending on if we push a person onto the tracks or if we flick a switch.
This indicates that when you try to encode our moral instincts into axioms they form inconsistencies. An inconsistent system means the system is arbitrary and made up. It is not a "science" and just an arbitrary set of inconsistent behavioral rules. In other words, it's just a biological group of behaviors that coincidentally helps humans survive in a society; it is not some universal truth in the universe, not like the laws of physics.
Is it worth studying an arbitrary set of rules as if they were some universal truth? No. I think it's excessive. You need to create laws so that society functions but any analysis deeper then that (like the philosophy of ethics for example) is a pointless endeavor. There is no axiomatic or fundamental truth here.
Consider the situation I talked about and the two possible moral axioms that arise from it.
The psychopath that sat and watched the baby drown. Should he deserve any form of punishment? What should we encode as an axiom from our instinctual response to this situation? Should we just let people who sit by the pool watching the baby die not be punished? Is that the right thing to do?
What about the people who didn't donate a dime to Africa? Should they be punished? This is basically most people in the US. Should we punish everyone in the US?
Axiomatically speaking if one is punished so should the other.
This is the axiomatic conundrum. We evolved moral emotions to determine our behavior. Even when we try to interprete these emotions from an axiomatic perspective the conondrums remain on which axioms to choose. Depending on the situation neither axiom completely fits our interpretation of what is right or wrong.
Some people resolve this by choosing not to punish anyone by basing their decision on the axiom that punishment should only be reserved for murder by action not murder by inaction. However that is just an axiom you arbitrarily chose. Emotionally speaking murder by deliberate inaction is something everyone feels is fundamentally wrong as well and can be shaped into an axiom. The problem is this axiom conflicts with our instincts that are telling us that the people who killed starving kids in Africa by refusing to donate money are not guilty of murder.
There are other moral situations that can hijack our brain. Consider a train that is about to run over and kill 5 people tied to the track. You can save those 5 people by pulling a switch causing the track branch to switch to another lane. This lane only has one person tied to the track. Do you pull the switch? Save 5 people or save 1 person? By default the train will run over 5 people.
Think about your decision before I adjust the parameters. Most people choose to save 5 people over saving 1 person and they will flip the switch.
Imagine the same train. The track is now linear with no branch. 5 people are tied to the track. You see a really big fat man standing next to the track. You can save all 5 people by sneakily pushing the fatman onto the track. The fatman will die but his weight will stop the train saving the 5 people. What do you do?
The situation is the same, only superficial parameters have changed.
Basically the situation is this: you have the choice of saving the lives of 5 people or 1 person. Axiomatically we by default think that you should save 5 people over 1 person.
However while both situations are the same we feel the the second situation tends to feel wrong. It feels like murder if you save 5 people. The axiom of murder by action and the axiom of saving 5 people over 1 person in this situation form a moral paradox and the feeling of what's wrong or what's right changes depending on if we push a person onto the tracks or if we flick a switch.
This indicates that when you try to encode our moral instincts into axioms they form inconsistencies. An inconsistent system means the system is arbitrary and made up. It is not a "science" and just an arbitrary set of inconsistent behavioral rules. In other words, it's just a biological group of behaviors that coincidentally helps humans survive in a society; it is not some universal truth in the universe, not like the laws of physics.
Is it worth studying an arbitrary set of rules as if they were some universal truth? No. I think it's excessive. You need to create laws so that society functions but any analysis deeper then that (like the philosophy of ethics for example) is a pointless endeavor. There is no axiomatic or fundamental truth here.
This can be explained as diffusion of responsibility. It's not really the same situation. Thus your moral obligations are not the same.
No, the viewpoint I present is the psychopathic viewpoint. An impassioned analysis disregarding responsibility completely as a non-issue. Not even trying to pass it off. Responsibility is not the domain of logic and science and this is the domain which I present my viewpoint from.
I know she is divisive, but Ayn Rand lays out a pretty good model for universal morality.
My understanding of her philosophy is "let the strong win, fuck the rest". Could you elaborate on what you think is her "universal morality"?
@yboris. Your account says that you are an 'Effective Altruist'. In a nutshell, Ayn Rand believes that altruism is immoral and argues why.
Given your eloquently put understanding of her philosophy, I doubt that you are interested in digging deeper. But in case I'm wrong, everything is summarised in a short interview with Mike Wallace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHl2PqwRcY0).
Given your eloquently put understanding of her philosophy, I doubt that you are interested in digging deeper. But in case I'm wrong, everything is summarised in a short interview with Mike Wallace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHl2PqwRcY0).
The fact that there's substantial disagreement for and against these principles is an argument that whatever morality Ayn Rand is arguing for, that morality isn't universal, it would not be universally accepted.
I am pretty sure that we all agree that humans will never have a complete universal morality because we put so many things into the bucket of morality that could not be addressed by a universal morality. There are people who find it immoral marry between races so no logical system could ever resolve their specific belief. Logically though, we could propose a set of core axioms that everyone could agree on and then build up a system from the axioms. This is what Rand attempts to do so from her logical system you can at least define some moral arguments as universal.
That's a novel argument. I believe what Rand was ultimately concerned with was a morality that is rational and objective; the idea being that one only needs to rely on one's own reason in order to judge what is moral and what is not. As to universality of moral doctrines, if I was feeling malicious, I'd say that the Catholic church was there first (that's what 'Catholic' means, after all). Some rather remarkable moral notions have historically been 'universally accepted', as you say.
"the idea being that one only needs to rely on one's own reason in order to judge what is moral and what is not" - I would argue that this is fundamentally impossible. A commonly used (and IMHO generally accepted) counterargument to that is "Hume's guillotine" or is–ought dichotomy; you can't derive "ought" statements (i.e. morality) solely from logic reasoning and factual "is" statements.
Of course, you definitely can derive a full system of morality logically if you start from a few "ought" axioms - many proposed systems of morality are done this way, and likely Ayn Rand's proposal as well. But in such cases these axioms are the subjective and potentially questionable part, and we don't have an universal agreement on them. If your system has 99% of logical reasoning based on 1% intuitively assumed axioms, that 1% carries pretty much all the weight.
We know where many particular "moral axioms" lead, but that only leads to disagreement about them when seemingly reasonable moral axioms logically lead to various outcomes that intuitively seem unacceptable, so we don't have anything approaching consensus; for every proposal there is enough substantial critique that it doesn't seem suitable to be the One True Perfect morality - perhaps we should keep looking, but perhaps it's futile, there's no strong arguments yet to say that an universal morality must be possible in the first place.
Of course, you definitely can derive a full system of morality logically if you start from a few "ought" axioms - many proposed systems of morality are done this way, and likely Ayn Rand's proposal as well. But in such cases these axioms are the subjective and potentially questionable part, and we don't have an universal agreement on them. If your system has 99% of logical reasoning based on 1% intuitively assumed axioms, that 1% carries pretty much all the weight.
We know where many particular "moral axioms" lead, but that only leads to disagreement about them when seemingly reasonable moral axioms logically lead to various outcomes that intuitively seem unacceptable, so we don't have anything approaching consensus; for every proposal there is enough substantial critique that it doesn't seem suitable to be the One True Perfect morality - perhaps we should keep looking, but perhaps it's futile, there's no strong arguments yet to say that an universal morality must be possible in the first place.
I don't think universal morality means universally _accepted_ - I believe the idea is that it's universally _true_.
Truth is not truth due to everyone agreeing on it.
Truth is not truth due to everyone agreeing on it.
It is easy enough read the wikipedia entry on Objectivism and I could never do justice to the topic in a forum post so I will leave that for you to research.
I do find it interesting that most people who agree with Rand are less like her than the people who disagree with her. I am sure if you spend some time researching her (not reading opinions) you will find yourself wondering how Ronald Reagan could ever agree with her. Yet here we are.
I do find it interesting that most people who agree with Rand are less like her than the people who disagree with her. I am sure if you spend some time researching her (not reading opinions) you will find yourself wondering how Ronald Reagan could ever agree with her. Yet here we are.
Rand's morality isn't universal in the sense that it's intrinsic. In Rand's moral ends are derived from empirical observations acted upon under the constraints of self-preservation and the laws of nature.
The article lacks substance, and asks the reader for suppositions. "Science" will not be able to, nor is in the realm of deducing or making morality. It's quite annoying how scientism is being pushed these days.
I am not a darwinian, but most folks are these days.
Universal morality doesn't appear to be particularly successful, when faced with tribalism. As far as I can tell, from a darwinian perspective, the right thing (so called) would be to encourage universalism in your competitors, while practicing tribalism yourself.
Universal morality doesn't appear to be particularly successful, when faced with tribalism. As far as I can tell, from a darwinian perspective, the right thing (so called) would be to encourage universalism in your competitors, while practicing tribalism yourself.
I didn't see a definition of "tribalism" in the article. I see references to the "January insurrection" and vague references to other "far-right" things.
If you go back to Plato's Euthyphro, you see the character Euthyphro on his way to testify against his own father for mistreating a criminal. This is a very early "moral" moment in our intellectual history; it was practically inconceivable that a son would take such a position against his own father. I'd feel comfortable calling it "anti-tribalist," and it isn't so obvious whether Euthyphro is pursuing the right course.
If you look at the laws of practically every developed country, there is no "tribalism." Given the vagueness of the authors target, I suspect what he'd rather say is that we have to give up things like nations, borders, ethnic identities, sex-based sport leagues, and so on. If he bothered to spell out in detail what he means by "tribalism," and not simply let the reader's imagination carry the burden of supplying the target, I suspect his proposal wouldn't have made it out of his own mouth.