Amazon reverses course, expands work-from-home options(mynorthwest.com)
mynorthwest.com
Amazon reverses course, expands work-from-home options
https://mynorthwest.com/2960761/amazon-offering-flexible-work-from-home-options-seattle-tech-companies/
221 comments
Agree with you, I have no issues with short commutes. However one place I worked at pre-pandemic had a lot of hot desks but unfortunately not enough to sustain the amount of people who worked there (800 employees only 600 desks). This plus a clear desk policy made the place sterile and I regularly had to find some corner somewhere to try and work, usually on a little chair with no desk.
I had a full office and decent chair at home, but despite this, it was always frowned on when someome wfh.
I had a full office and decent chair at home, but despite this, it was always frowned on when someome wfh.
They had 1/3 more employees than desks, but frowned on WFH?
Yep, it was very much an old school company pretending to be agile by saying they were. It came about after a merger of the smaller offices (which had ample parking and seats), so I think the agile may have been code for cost-cutting. We had to battle to get moveable whiteboards.
I work on a trading floor in a large investment bank in Hong Kong and I dont get what you dislike abt open floor. It's so nice to just know what's happening around you, have people rushing to you or you rushing to people, being able to yell or be yelled at.
Sure there are focus phases I d love to have less distractions in, but tbh sometimes your value lies in quick response to big problems rather than long concentration to solve small ones.
I worked in full height cubicles and sometimes you can spend 2 weeks without sharing something with a coworker to a point you end up having spent all you time on a silly assumption you discover made you overengineer something a dude sitting 10 meters away knew you could solve in 5 lines.
Maybe we both program different kind of software and maybe need different environments ?
Sure there are focus phases I d love to have less distractions in, but tbh sometimes your value lies in quick response to big problems rather than long concentration to solve small ones.
I worked in full height cubicles and sometimes you can spend 2 weeks without sharing something with a coworker to a point you end up having spent all you time on a silly assumption you discover made you overengineer something a dude sitting 10 meters away knew you could solve in 5 lines.
Maybe we both program different kind of software and maybe need different environments ?
Trading floor is an entirely different environment from the majority of other open office concepts and related jobs out there.
It’s more akin to an SOC or other Ops centers, where the open floor and resulting info flow is crucial to the perma on-call nature of those work patterns.
It’s more akin to an SOC or other Ops centers, where the open floor and resulting info flow is crucial to the perma on-call nature of those work patterns.
> quick response to big problems
Most developers (the kind that actually just sits and codes all day long) are not putting out fires all the time. But, many, many ops (operations) people are. This comment makes a lot of sense if you consider that the author might be in ops.
As a former devops/infrastructure engineer (i.e., my coding was mostly around lighter projects or automation/scripting), I was in some open environments and sometimes they really were a ton of fun. One day I came in and there were server boxes all over my desk... it was funny. We were constantly pranking each other (nothing permanent or painful, of course!) That camaraderie and closeness produced one of the best work environments of my career and I miss it.
However, my job now is serious, head-down coding... I would find that very difficult in the same open office environment, so I think both perspectives can be true depending on the type of job you have.
Most developers (the kind that actually just sits and codes all day long) are not putting out fires all the time. But, many, many ops (operations) people are. This comment makes a lot of sense if you consider that the author might be in ops.
As a former devops/infrastructure engineer (i.e., my coding was mostly around lighter projects or automation/scripting), I was in some open environments and sometimes they really were a ton of fun. One day I came in and there were server boxes all over my desk... it was funny. We were constantly pranking each other (nothing permanent or painful, of course!) That camaraderie and closeness produced one of the best work environments of my career and I miss it.
However, my job now is serious, head-down coding... I would find that very difficult in the same open office environment, so I think both perspectives can be true depending on the type of job you have.
Somewhat ironically, most of my career has been in Ops myself. I still don't think open floor plan offices are a good thing. While working in Ops I was generally at an organization that was either large enough or geographically dispersed enough that calling me on the phone or messaging me through internal systems would have been faster and more reliable than walking to my desk or yelling, so I still don't really see any plus for open floor plans. Also, I had to stop bringing my vintage IBM keyboards to work when we switched to an open floor plan at my prior office job because /I/ was too noisy for others with my typing.
This sounds like hell. People rushing around and yelling?
Yes, that's what trading floors are like.
> Maybe we both program different kind of software and maybe need different environments ?
That may be true. My dislike for open floor plan offices is actually less about noise and more about visual distractions. I stare off into the distance when thinking and having visual distractions within my field of view can easily interrupt those thoughts. Thanks to my upbringing, I'm pretty good at tuning noises out and I usually am wearing headphones anyway. But the visual distractions lead me to get off whatever train of thought that I'm on. I don't find cubicles to be significantly less noisy than open floor plans, but they do massively (to completely) eliminate visual distractions. One compromise I had at a previous employer that worked well was to "pod" cubicles, so you had your back to your team but could turn around and talk, but you weren't distracted by other teams during the day having nerf fights or whatever the heck they were doing elsewhere.
Also, I do think there's an element of different personalities involved. I think more extroverted people probably enjoy offices and open offices generally, where-as I am introverted and a bit socially anxious, so having privacy and no interruptions for my work is best for my personality.
That may be true. My dislike for open floor plan offices is actually less about noise and more about visual distractions. I stare off into the distance when thinking and having visual distractions within my field of view can easily interrupt those thoughts. Thanks to my upbringing, I'm pretty good at tuning noises out and I usually am wearing headphones anyway. But the visual distractions lead me to get off whatever train of thought that I'm on. I don't find cubicles to be significantly less noisy than open floor plans, but they do massively (to completely) eliminate visual distractions. One compromise I had at a previous employer that worked well was to "pod" cubicles, so you had your back to your team but could turn around and talk, but you weren't distracted by other teams during the day having nerf fights or whatever the heck they were doing elsewhere.
Also, I do think there's an element of different personalities involved. I think more extroverted people probably enjoy offices and open offices generally, where-as I am introverted and a bit socially anxious, so having privacy and no interruptions for my work is best for my personality.
it might also be a difference in the domain you're working on.
finance/banking tends to be a very different kind of programming then most developers are used to, even though the domain expertise is still CRUD at the heart.
i've been in that industry as well for 4 yrs now. I can kinda see his point, as its hard to not drift off in any other setting. You usually just get BusinessCases to implement, which are rigidly defined and just need to be implemented.
(and tested to a degree some people wouldn't believe on this forum where even TDD is often questioned)
finance/banking tends to be a very different kind of programming then most developers are used to, even though the domain expertise is still CRUD at the heart.
i've been in that industry as well for 4 yrs now. I can kinda see his point, as its hard to not drift off in any other setting. You usually just get BusinessCases to implement, which are rigidly defined and just need to be implemented.
(and tested to a degree some people wouldn't believe on this forum where even TDD is often questioned)
Nothing that I do is urgent enough to warrant a yell across a room.
Yeah, but your boss being able to do it to you makes him feel important and powerful!
I wonder if your success is some combination of:
- Unusually good aptitude for handling context switches.
- Unusually good skill at concentrating on your work in noisy / busy environments.
- Not much time writing code that's near the limits of your abilities.
- Unusually good aptitude for handling context switches.
- Unusually good skill at concentrating on your work in noisy / busy environments.
- Not much time writing code that's near the limits of your abilities.
15+ years remote consultant here. I have never stepped into an office for work during this time. All work from home (sometimes cafes). I can confidently say that most of the time, I've been considered one of the most productive workers on the teams I've been involved with. There's nothing that prevents productivity on remote work that can't be handled with the right tools, skills and attitude. More so, once you (and your team) learns to handle it, working from home can be even more productive than working on an office (worked on an office for the first 5 years of my career and those were a lot less productive). Ask me anything.
Ok, I'll ask the big question: How do you deal with politics? Specially when you are the only remote person in the team. Do you feel you have a disadvantage to someone that works in person when it comes to being recognized and growth?
Not OP but in case it's interesting:
I was a remote employee (IC) for about 12 years, and this was a recurring problem. I was one of a handful of remotes in a global team across several time zones, so at some level everybody had to deal with this problem: I didn't have a good handle on the office politics in the US, but the people in the US had just as tenuous a grip on the office politics in Singapore, and so on.
Somehow it usually worked out OK, but we had a director who was very good at shielding us from the more distracting stuff, and we were working on a chronically understaffed, mission-critical, unglamorous, profitable product, so it sort of attracted "just do the work" types.
The OP, however, is a consultant, which brings a very different set of political considerations. Last time I did remote consulting, which was a long time ago, the biggest thing you had to worry about was budget.
Was the $2M project going to get $5M next year or $1M and why? If it's $5M you'd better be able to offer more services or they might push you out in favor of a bigger shop; if it's $1M you'd better make sure you have an internal champion to make sure you still get some of the work; and if you think you can't influence the decision you're not paying attention.
Back then, consultancies would have people on staff just to take all the meetings and drink the drinks and press the flesh and know these things. I'm talking about shops with maybe 10-20 people. I don't know how it works now, but I would bet tomorrow's lunch that whoever still has those people makes more money than whoever doesn't.
(I was a solo consultant, and my lunch was a lot more modest.)
I was a remote employee (IC) for about 12 years, and this was a recurring problem. I was one of a handful of remotes in a global team across several time zones, so at some level everybody had to deal with this problem: I didn't have a good handle on the office politics in the US, but the people in the US had just as tenuous a grip on the office politics in Singapore, and so on.
Somehow it usually worked out OK, but we had a director who was very good at shielding us from the more distracting stuff, and we were working on a chronically understaffed, mission-critical, unglamorous, profitable product, so it sort of attracted "just do the work" types.
The OP, however, is a consultant, which brings a very different set of political considerations. Last time I did remote consulting, which was a long time ago, the biggest thing you had to worry about was budget.
Was the $2M project going to get $5M next year or $1M and why? If it's $5M you'd better be able to offer more services or they might push you out in favor of a bigger shop; if it's $1M you'd better make sure you have an internal champion to make sure you still get some of the work; and if you think you can't influence the decision you're not paying attention.
Back then, consultancies would have people on staff just to take all the meetings and drink the drinks and press the flesh and know these things. I'm talking about shops with maybe 10-20 people. I don't know how it works now, but I would bet tomorrow's lunch that whoever still has those people makes more money than whoever doesn't.
(I was a solo consultant, and my lunch was a lot more modest.)
I worked for a small consulting company (not software development). We and other small shops--at least anything bigger than solo practitioner--pretty much all had a client services/sales/business person even if, at the end of the day, the real relationship was with the individual consultants.
At a previous job during 2018-2020 I was the only remote worker. In that time I got two promotions, two large raises, and some RSUs as an additional "thanks for being a great dev" bonus. If you keep communicating with stakeholders on a somewhat regular basis, "sell" your skills when talking to them, and you do a great job that sets you apart from everyone else, you'll get recognition either way.
I got a 35K raise recently - and all I did was ask - at my current job where 90% of the people are remote. The entire time I've been employed here, I've made sure to constantly mention to my manager how much I've improved things; that's what I mean by "sell your skills".
Basically from my experience, it's made no difference whether I'm in the office or working remotely; my value is recognized all the same.
EDIT: BTW I'm not a "Rockstar Dev" or any bullshit like that. My skill level is either on par or slightly lower than my colleagues. I just make sure to focus on solving tangible business problems and keep constant open communication with my team or stakeholders.
I got a 35K raise recently - and all I did was ask - at my current job where 90% of the people are remote. The entire time I've been employed here, I've made sure to constantly mention to my manager how much I've improved things; that's what I mean by "sell your skills".
Basically from my experience, it's made no difference whether I'm in the office or working remotely; my value is recognized all the same.
EDIT: BTW I'm not a "Rockstar Dev" or any bullshit like that. My skill level is either on par or slightly lower than my colleagues. I just make sure to focus on solving tangible business problems and keep constant open communication with my team or stakeholders.
They are a consultant, so they just move on to the next client and let the perms deal with the politics.
The nature of the work changes automatically when you’re this remote (I am too). Results start to matter much more than how people experience you (although that’s pretty important as well). You’ll get given work that has clearly defined inputs and outputs, or given goals that have defined or obvious success measures.
This allows you to bypass the politics situation pretty well. Interact professionally with the people you need to, get your work done, and get your social and drama needs met elsewhere, like with real friends and family :-P
This allows you to bypass the politics situation pretty well. Interact professionally with the people you need to, get your work done, and get your social and drama needs met elsewhere, like with real friends and family :-P
Isn't that itself a problem though? My issue with remote working is it feels more like I'm a code factory that doesn't get to have input on big picture/design stuff very often. Maybe some people like that though...
Big picture socially and politically, no. Although you do get a rough sense of the power structure pretty quickly. But in terms of the work you’re doing, the amount of influence you have depends on the quality of the organization. If leadership takes suggestions from golf buddies you have a problem, but all ideas are being considered this is a non-issue. You won’t get invited to the boss’s house parties, but your designs / architecture can get implemented if the org knows what it’s doing.
I think your perspective is different because you're probably more senior than I am. I feel like I benefit a lot from listening to the more senior development on my team and by listening to my boss reason about the decisions he's making.
If you're very confident in yourself and your work though this probably is less of a problem.
If you're very confident in yourself and your work though this probably is less of a problem.
This is true. I have noticed the non-senior folks struggling a bit, especially the ones who need help and guidance in their day to day work. The been-there-done-that people who already have family and social commitments outside of work have it a little easier.
What part of remote limits your big picture involvement? How does office working enable it?
In an office environment you can walk around the floor, pop into other people's convos or meetings, learn news and rumors from water cooler conversations. You can do this organically when you see people having a break.
In a remote environment you have no idea if you're interrupting someone when you give them a call, so you need a proper reason to call someone. People discuss things in closed conference calls, chat rooms and email chains, so if they don't invite you you will never learn about any opportunities yourself.
In a remote environment you have no idea if you're interrupting someone when you give them a call, so you need a proper reason to call someone. People discuss things in closed conference calls, chat rooms and email chains, so if they don't invite you you will never learn about any opportunities yourself.
Unless you're in a very small company, the "big picture" probably involves people on different floors, in different building, and in different locations--continents even. In many respects, communicating remotely can break down location-based silos in many cases.
I'm not talking about the "big picture" on the scale of the entire company, but more just my team and possibly the 2 or 3 teams we work most closely with.
If half the team is wfh it just seems like those in the office will be in the loop more consistently, especially if the team lead is also in the office. There's a lot of questions I feel comfortable asking casually if the person I want to ask is nearby but not by sending them an email or during a meeting.
If half the team is wfh it just seems like those in the office will be in the loop more consistently, especially if the team lead is also in the office. There's a lot of questions I feel comfortable asking casually if the person I want to ask is nearby but not by sending them an email or during a meeting.
I personally don't like living my life by chances (of overhearing important conversations, or anything). I do think small talks and self-start initiatives are important for work satisfaction. I will try to facilitate that by proactively reach out to coworker and probing around what they find interesting. I do that in on slack as much as or even more than in person.
There is this bot on slack called donut that every company I've been uses. Basically it prompts 2 or more random people to catch up every week or how often you think not annoying. I don't think I had more than that back in the office days but you could send slack messages to people how often you want if you like more.
In my team, most of the times, anything important needs to be sent to the channel for transparency and more chance of getting picked up. Private messages are not expected to be as important nor get an immediate reply so people won't feel bothered when you send one. Then there are also things more purposefully async such as github issues and wikis.
There is this bot on slack called donut that every company I've been uses. Basically it prompts 2 or more random people to catch up every week or how often you think not annoying. I don't think I had more than that back in the office days but you could send slack messages to people how often you want if you like more.
In my team, most of the times, anything important needs to be sent to the channel for transparency and more chance of getting picked up. Private messages are not expected to be as important nor get an immediate reply so people won't feel bothered when you send one. Then there are also things more purposefully async such as github issues and wikis.
Not OP but will give my uninvited experience. I have also been remote a majority of the last 10+ years of my work life.
Politics is tricky. I have/had to do a lot more public relations. Starting/running book/video clubs, making time for 1:1s with coworkers, I even did a 2+ year stint of starting off the morning slack chats with a dad joke, that was very appreciated. There are many ways to be productive, but I had to find ways to stay noticed, likable, relevant, and appreciated outside the pull requests. As my former manager said, if no one remembers who you are, you will become just a line item on the payroll.
Politics is tricky. I have/had to do a lot more public relations. Starting/running book/video clubs, making time for 1:1s with coworkers, I even did a 2+ year stint of starting off the morning slack chats with a dad joke, that was very appreciated. There are many ways to be productive, but I had to find ways to stay noticed, likable, relevant, and appreciated outside the pull requests. As my former manager said, if no one remembers who you are, you will become just a line item on the payroll.
Remote for the last 6 years for me. Pre-pandemic was also the only member of team that was remote.
I do something pretty similar. Friday's I will somewhat regularly send a dad joke or meme. These of course stay non-political and very SFW.
On a somewhat serious side. I try to regularly send "tips". If I learn something that I think is beyond cool I'll send an email teaching that new cool thing. If it can't be done in an email I'll setup small sessions to teach that over Zoom. I prefer Zoom because it's more impactful as far as being "seen" and not just another email.
Relaying what I've learned (even basic things) works really well, at least my regular 1:1's and reviews support this view.
I do something pretty similar. Friday's I will somewhat regularly send a dad joke or meme. These of course stay non-political and very SFW.
On a somewhat serious side. I try to regularly send "tips". If I learn something that I think is beyond cool I'll send an email teaching that new cool thing. If it can't be done in an email I'll setup small sessions to teach that over Zoom. I prefer Zoom because it's more impactful as far as being "seen" and not just another email.
Relaying what I've learned (even basic things) works really well, at least my regular 1:1's and reviews support this view.
Your experience is certainly invited :)
I think your experience is really interesting, because as a dev our work can be hard to measure, unless you're working on something huge and very visible, so this interpersonal part of the work becomes very important, kinda like your manager said, you have to be remembered for something more than just "that guy we pay to make code".
I think your experience is really interesting, because as a dev our work can be hard to measure, unless you're working on something huge and very visible, so this interpersonal part of the work becomes very important, kinda like your manager said, you have to be remembered for something more than just "that guy we pay to make code".
Did you start your career as a remote contractor? Or, did you spend those early years on-site in a more traditional setting?
Training new employees (literally new graduates, but also new to team) can be more difficult with remotes. There are probably solutions, but having hired both remote and on-site employees, it was definitely easier to bring the on-site employees up to speed.
I fall into the "there's some value to co-located teams" camp, but I also believe that value is WAY overstated by most managers and senior leadership. In my perfect world, my team would all be located near enough to the office to come in when it makes sense, but free to work remote most of the time.
Training new employees (literally new graduates, but also new to team) can be more difficult with remotes. There are probably solutions, but having hired both remote and on-site employees, it was definitely easier to bring the on-site employees up to speed.
I fall into the "there's some value to co-located teams" camp, but I also believe that value is WAY overstated by most managers and senior leadership. In my perfect world, my team would all be located near enough to the office to come in when it makes sense, but free to work remote most of the time.
What's your experience with a combination of remote desktop &/or using something like VS Code Live Share?
Given the choice between a traditional setting or remote, I much more prefer the remote session with those tools.
-- I'll admit to being biased towards remote but with an understanding many things do work better when together (physically).
Given the choice between a traditional setting or remote, I much more prefer the remote session with those tools.
-- I'll admit to being biased towards remote but with an understanding many things do work better when together (physically).
Pretty good. My team is scattered up and down the east coast (US) and heavily uses Zoom to collaborate. For most work, this is fine. The two places I find tools lacking are...
1. White-boarding new systems/features. I find value in having the team in the same conference room and being able to use an actual whiteboard. So far, I haven't found a virtual whiteboard that was anywhere near as usable. I don't mean for pseudo-coding, but quickly sketching UIs or system architectures, where coworkers can walk up and edit each others work in real-time.
2. Onboarding new employees. Both for "water-cooler" socialization and ease of having the new team-member access other team member for whatever questions they have (Slack and other tools are most of the way there for the latter, but there's still something to be said for reading facial expressions and getting a "feel" for somebody).
And I freely admit some of that may just be my own biases. I've hired remotely and locally, both successfully, and with my company spread across 3+ continents, I'm used to remote collaboration.
I've worked with remote team-members for 20 years now. The tools today are light-years better. Heck, when I started at this company, many of the remote employees didn't even have stable internet connections - that was "fun".
1. White-boarding new systems/features. I find value in having the team in the same conference room and being able to use an actual whiteboard. So far, I haven't found a virtual whiteboard that was anywhere near as usable. I don't mean for pseudo-coding, but quickly sketching UIs or system architectures, where coworkers can walk up and edit each others work in real-time.
2. Onboarding new employees. Both for "water-cooler" socialization and ease of having the new team-member access other team member for whatever questions they have (Slack and other tools are most of the way there for the latter, but there's still something to be said for reading facial expressions and getting a "feel" for somebody).
And I freely admit some of that may just be my own biases. I've hired remotely and locally, both successfully, and with my company spread across 3+ continents, I'm used to remote collaboration.
I've worked with remote team-members for 20 years now. The tools today are light-years better. Heck, when I started at this company, many of the remote employees didn't even have stable internet connections - that was "fun".
>White-boarding new systems/features.
Although tools like Google Docs actually replace whiteboards well for many purposes, I'm not sure why someone hasn't developed a better tablet-based collaborative tool. I admittedly haven't looked at what's out there recently but you'd think--even given admittedly limited surface area compared to an in-person whiteboard--someone could have given a better run at this.
Although tools like Google Docs actually replace whiteboards well for many purposes, I'm not sure why someone hasn't developed a better tablet-based collaborative tool. I admittedly haven't looked at what's out there recently but you'd think--even given admittedly limited surface area compared to an in-person whiteboard--someone could have given a better run at this.
Not to come across as a Microsoft fan boy (I work with MS focused Shops mostly), but the MS Whiteboard tool is pretty solid for a simple collaborative tool that has worked well in small teams when I've used it. I'm sure there are similar tools with more advanced features but sometimes simplicity is best, such as a real white board.
I'll strongly agree with #2. Physical presence is tough to beat in forming a relationship. But I do think spending lots of time communicating with someone online can form fairly good relationships.
#1 I'm curious what you've used & where it's come up short. I have had good luck there.
#1 I'm curious what you've used & where it's come up short. I have had good luck there.
>White-boarding new systems/features
I find miro works well for this.
I find miro works well for this.
I'd love to get your take on two challenges I've encountered:
(1) Being the only remote person on a team. It was really hard to get other members to include me in meetings, etc. Perhaps your status as a consultant prevented such exclusion?
(2) Inability to stand at the same, physical whiteboard during technical discussions / design sessions.
(1) Being the only remote person on a team. It was really hard to get other members to include me in meetings, etc. Perhaps your status as a consultant prevented such exclusion?
(2) Inability to stand at the same, physical whiteboard during technical discussions / design sessions.
> There's nothing that prevents productivity on remote work that can't be handled with the right tools, skills and attitude
Firstly, congrats! It's something I'm working towards myself, and the pandemic looks like it will be a significant opportunity to try and achieve it.
However, perhaps you're minimising your expertise here and the learnings and experience that the employer and the worker need to go through to make it work.
Anything to share here?
Firstly, congrats! It's something I'm working towards myself, and the pandemic looks like it will be a significant opportunity to try and achieve it.
However, perhaps you're minimising your expertise here and the learnings and experience that the employer and the worker need to go through to make it work.
Anything to share here?
If productivity was the only measure of work success, I’d agree with you as being a good case study.
There are some cool studies about what a “valued employee” is, in a sincere sense, depending on remote v in person.
Remote - linkers, info sharers, result generators.
In-person - basically all the people<>people skills you’d expect get valued.
I’d love to find this study again, but it provided a nice framework for me to think through how to succeed based on the workplace type.
There are some cool studies about what a “valued employee” is, in a sincere sense, depending on remote v in person.
Remote - linkers, info sharers, result generators.
In-person - basically all the people<>people skills you’d expect get valued.
I’d love to find this study again, but it provided a nice framework for me to think through how to succeed based on the workplace type.
Did you start by consulting for people you'd worked with in the office?
How did you develop clients with whom you've never worked in an office at all?
(I consulted many years ago, sometimes remote, but everyone wanted to see me come in eventually for meetings, so I'm very curious.)
How did you develop clients with whom you've never worked in an office at all?
(I consulted many years ago, sometimes remote, but everyone wanted to see me come in eventually for meetings, so I'm very curious.)
How did remote work 15 years ago differ from remote work now? I imagine a lot of the tooling and infrastructure modern remote workers depend on now didn't exist back then!
Wht do you think the execs/owners at your client companies retain onsite staff instead of hiring only more people like you?
Not strictly on-topic, but I’m wishing we could adopt the term ‘flexible-location’ instead of ‘work-from-home’.
I feel that the latter can convey a mental image of a person lounging at home in their pajamas, drinking a chai latte while ‘dabbling’ occasionally in work, while the former more accurately describes what I’m hoping the future of (former) office work will be: something not bound to a single, company-controlled, indoor location.
I feel that the latter can convey a mental image of a person lounging at home in their pajamas, drinking a chai latte while ‘dabbling’ occasionally in work, while the former more accurately describes what I’m hoping the future of (former) office work will be: something not bound to a single, company-controlled, indoor location.
Legit. Sometimes you have to get ready for standup when you're in a small village in the Scottish Highlands because you couldn't get to your new accommodations on time.
https://i.imgur.com/9oY9F0t.png
https://i.imgur.com/9oY9F0t.png
Probably the most clear-headed on the meeting that morning, to boot.
One thing I really love about working remotely is that I can maintain perspective. It's easier to take a step away and remember to see life for what it is rather than getting so caught up in the miniature worlds created by someone else who didn't necessarily have everyone's best interests at heart.
One thing I really love about working remotely is that I can maintain perspective. It's easier to take a step away and remember to see life for what it is rather than getting so caught up in the miniature worlds created by someone else who didn't necessarily have everyone's best interests at heart.
Nice. At an old job, I was known as the WFDP (work from dog park) guy. The dog park next to my apartment was beautiful and for some reason was blanketed with WiFi. So, I spent a lot of time there under a tree. My coworkers thought it was a little ridiculous, but I always got all my work done each sprint so…
I want your battery ;)
Tell them you're home and you're using one of those custom backgrounds.
Amazing that you had service! What provider do you use? Last time I drove around the highlands I had zero data signal
Looks like a perfectly acceptable office to me.
> a person lounging at home in their pajamas, drinking a chai latte while ‘dabbling’ occasionally in work
This is literally what a lot of people want though.
This is literally what a lot of people want though.
Why not both?
I can drink a chai latte in my PJs and "occasionally" work through-out the day and still be more productive than if I waste 3 hours a day on commuting and have to fight through constant noises and distractions in an office.
Then the solution is simple. Make the metric production. If you can sit around in your PJs browsing reddit and do the odd hour here and there and still get the same results as people that are 9-6 bum in seat, who cares?
This is literally what a lot of managers think a lot of people want.
People act (on average) with a lot more good faith than most corporate entities.
If, as a manager, you are unable to infer that this is happening, then in all probability that person would be doing the same 'dabbling' if they were co-located. (Just with a higher effort of looking busier).
People act (on average) with a lot more good faith than most corporate entities.
If, as a manager, you are unable to infer that this is happening, then in all probability that person would be doing the same 'dabbling' if they were co-located. (Just with a higher effort of looking busier).
For me, I don't want to do that, but as distractions are so easy, I can easily see myself falling in such a pattern.
That's why, despite having the choice to work from home, I am going to mainly work in the office.
That's why, despite having the choice to work from home, I am going to mainly work in the office.
I think there’s something to be said for the fixed “work” environment having an impact on your thinking and productivity.
At work = work mode, at home = home mode.
At work = work mode, at home = home mode.
Which is why many successful remote workers have a dedicated "space" for work to help force the mental switch between modes, even if it just a dedicated "office" room in their home or a regular coffee shop they only use for work or options like that.
You can have a "fixed" work environment without it being a centrally managed office.
More reason why "work-from-home" is an under-efficient specifier on both sides for what people are often really asking for/what bosses really want. "Work-from-home-office" at the very least would offer a better impression to both sides, though I think the great-grandparent here's "flexible-location" is probably better still.
You can have a "fixed" work environment without it being a centrally managed office.
More reason why "work-from-home" is an under-efficient specifier on both sides for what people are often really asking for/what bosses really want. "Work-from-home-office" at the very least would offer a better impression to both sides, though I think the great-grandparent here's "flexible-location" is probably better still.
It's more important for some people than for others.
I will say when I used to just sometimes work from home, it was more important for me to do the usual morning routine, dress up in my usual business casual, and sit down in my office.
The last 10 years or so, when I've been increasingly working remote--and have been effectively full-time even within fairly easy commute of an office--I don't bother and will work anywhere in the house I want.
I will say when I used to just sometimes work from home, it was more important for me to do the usual morning routine, dress up in my usual business casual, and sit down in my office.
The last 10 years or so, when I've been increasingly working remote--and have been effectively full-time even within fairly easy commute of an office--I don't bother and will work anywhere in the house I want.
Won't that project an image that you are not trustworthy and have to be supervised?
My anecdotal evidence is that the majority of people in my network are not working anywhere close 8 hours. I don't think they're less productive than they were in the office.
When we were remote, my staff was nowhere near 8 hours a day. Our schedules are very dependent on our students (higher education) and their needs. Sometimes they would work 2 hours a day, sometimes 10. It was literally just like in the office, except they were free to do whatever they needed to do during their down time.
Old administration thought that wasn't good, because people were screwing around during the 8-5. I tried to explain that yes, that happened, but
a) that already happens in the office;
b) they're also working at night, on the weekends, and whenever the hell I need them to, and not complaining about it, or even being bothered by it
c) they're happier and MUCH more effective for the students.
No go.
Old administration thought that wasn't good, because people were screwing around during the 8-5. I tried to explain that yes, that happened, but
a) that already happens in the office;
b) they're also working at night, on the weekends, and whenever the hell I need them to, and not complaining about it, or even being bothered by it
c) they're happier and MUCH more effective for the students.
No go.
That's probably because they were rarely heads-down for 8 hours in the office either.
absolutely
My experience over the years, especially for "information workers", is that location does not matter to productivity.
if a worker wants to slack off and post on HN (or watch netflix) during office hours it does not matter if they are "in the office" or at home....
if a worker wants to slack off and post on HN (or watch netflix) during office hours it does not matter if they are "in the office" or at home....
You either get it done or someone who can will replace you. What makes people feel so safe in their job that “dabbling” is not putting their career at risk?
I specifically try to avoid saying “work from home” for the reason you mention as well as to try to make an effort to separate work life and home life.
When interviewing candidates and speaking about the company to current employees I make a conscious effort to say that we are a “remote” or “distributed” company.
When interviewing candidates and speaking about the company to current employees I make a conscious effort to say that we are a “remote” or “distributed” company.
Maybe that's just me but flexible-location on the other hand to me suggests that the person is constantly on the go, e.g. in a café.
Given the shitty internet situation (might just be here in Germany though) and background noise anywhere that is not the office or home (which seems to be still bad in a lot of cases), that doesn't seem too desirable of an image. Those factors are what cause the location in "flexible-location" to be home 99% of the time for me (and probably many other people).
Given the shitty internet situation (might just be here in Germany though) and background noise anywhere that is not the office or home (which seems to be still bad in a lot of cases), that doesn't seem too desirable of an image. Those factors are what cause the location in "flexible-location" to be home 99% of the time for me (and probably many other people).
"Flexible location" also opens up a bunch of potential tax issues if people are spending a lot of time working from another state or another country. (Surprisingly, the former can be a bigger issue than the latter assuming visa limits are being observed.)
Another reason your new term is superior:
"Flexible-location" implies that I might not live within commuting distance of one of my employer's offices.
"Work-from-home", so far, has been abused by employers who are hellbent a so-called "hybrid" model and still want to require that employees live within commuting distance. "Work-from-home", in any proportion less than 100%, is worthless for someone who doesn't want to live in the 'burbs.
"Flexible-location" implies that I might not live within commuting distance of one of my employer's offices.
"Work-from-home", so far, has been abused by employers who are hellbent a so-called "hybrid" model and still want to require that employees live within commuting distance. "Work-from-home", in any proportion less than 100%, is worthless for someone who doesn't want to live in the 'burbs.
I think “remote working” is good enough, as it does not carry a specific social stigma..
The policies we're writing at the moment at calling it "work from anywhere". We don't really care when you want to do your work, as long as you do it. We have some people that would like to take a year abroad while still working for us. As long as they have an internet connection and can meet their team goals, go for it :-)
In Germany this is already the case.
We got home office laws, where the employer has to give you stuff to do you work from home.
And we got mobile work laws, where things are more flexible, and people are allowed to work in office if they wish, but can work from anywhere they like. This way the employer doesn't have to put effort into a potential home working environment.
We got home office laws, where the employer has to give you stuff to do you work from home.
And we got mobile work laws, where things are more flexible, and people are allowed to work in office if they wish, but can work from anywhere they like. This way the employer doesn't have to put effort into a potential home working environment.
> I feel that the latter can convey a mental image of a person lounging at home in their pajamas, drinking a chai latte while ‘dabbling’ occasionally in work
Isn't what you do in the office except you don't wear pyjamas and have to look busy?
Isn't what you do in the office except you don't wear pyjamas and have to look busy?
Flexible location is only so accurate though. It’s unlikely that your work is async as soon as you go remote. So, unless you like working through the night in some locations then it’s not truly a flexible location.
You may like "location independent", already used for years. However "remote work" or "working remotely" are a lot more common and don't have pajamas connotation.
It feels like this article completely misses the mark with its tone... Amazon didn't "reverse course" at all.
The new guidance is still very much "office centric" and requires that everyone be in the office 3 days a week. And even if you do get an exception to work remotely (which will probably be extremely rare), you are still required to live within commute distance of your assigned office. That defeats the purpose of remote work for a lot of people.
The new guidance is still very much "office centric" and requires that everyone be in the office 3 days a week. And even if you do get an exception to work remotely (which will probably be extremely rare), you are still required to live within commute distance of your assigned office. That defeats the purpose of remote work for a lot of people.
Three days per week, as opposed to one or maybe two, is still in the you probably don't want a god-awful commute range. I did something like that for 18 months (when I wasn't traveling) with about a 90 minute commute and it really didn't feel long-term sustainable to me.
I can do a two-hour commute (especially if it can mostly be by rail) once a week or so. But much more than that and it gets pretty painful. Mind you, some flexibility is better than no flexibility but it's not remote work by any means.
I can do a two-hour commute (especially if it can mostly be by rail) once a week or so. But much more than that and it gets pretty painful. Mind you, some flexibility is better than no flexibility but it's not remote work by any means.
Amazon could become a good place to start as a junior moving on to a proper remote work at Google/Microsoft/Facebook/etc.
Remote point notwithstanding, this is quite common, actually. Amazon's mean tenure is somewhere around 9 months and is well known for flogging their mandatory attrition curve; they also are known for having relatively forgiving hiring criteria to be constantly moving fresh blood through the system. Amazon backloads RSUs for this reason, and juniors routinely treat their employment there as a "tour of duty" before moving elsewhere, as the brand is still quite a strong stamp on the resumé.
Many parts of it can be a bad place to work. But it's a huge company. There are some parts doing cutting edge work as well that you won't get access to at other companies. But to your point, the likelihood that a junior engineer will get access to that is slim, and so your assertion holds.
Many parts of it can be a bad place to work. But it's a huge company. There are some parts doing cutting edge work as well that you won't get access to at other companies. But to your point, the likelihood that a junior engineer will get access to that is slim, and so your assertion holds.
> proper remote work at Google/Microsoft
Amazon's policy is exactly the same as Microsoft. Is Google proper remote now?
Amazon's policy is exactly the same as Microsoft. Is Google proper remote now?
We'll see how that works for them
I co-founded a startup that was fully remote for 6 years and then hybrid for another few years (our NYC office had at least 1/2 of employees in-person full time).
I did a bunch of interviewing and hiring for remote software engineers during this time (interviewed 100+ people). One of the main things I tried to assess was whether or not the person was a good fit for working remotely (essentially, they needed to be very good at self-motivating their productivity). Some people's personality just doesn't work as well in an isolated, work-from-home environment. In my opinion, this is going to be a new realization many companies (large and small) are going to come to in the next year and will have to deal with accordingly. It's also unfair to people who were potentially thriving at their jobs when in-person full time, but may now be struggling to maintain the same productivity remotely.
I think it's inevitable that things will shift slowly back towards full-time in-person workplaces.
I did a bunch of interviewing and hiring for remote software engineers during this time (interviewed 100+ people). One of the main things I tried to assess was whether or not the person was a good fit for working remotely (essentially, they needed to be very good at self-motivating their productivity). Some people's personality just doesn't work as well in an isolated, work-from-home environment. In my opinion, this is going to be a new realization many companies (large and small) are going to come to in the next year and will have to deal with accordingly. It's also unfair to people who were potentially thriving at their jobs when in-person full time, but may now be struggling to maintain the same productivity remotely.
I think it's inevitable that things will shift slowly back towards full-time in-person workplaces.
I think it's also possible that things will drift to both ends of the spectrum.
Something like 3-in/2-out feels like one of those uncomfortable middle grounds. OK. So workers get a bit more flexibility. But the downsides:
- Companies can't really save on real estate unless you do scheduling and hot desking which seems like an ugly solution.
- Workers can't really increase their commute times much but have to keep a reasonable working area at home.
- Schedules will only overlap for meetings etc. if there's a lot of coordination
- Either remote people on a given day will get left out or some of those in-person will resent having to work as if everyone is remote even though they're in-person themselves.
Something like 3-in/2-out feels like one of those uncomfortable middle grounds. OK. So workers get a bit more flexibility. But the downsides:
- Companies can't really save on real estate unless you do scheduling and hot desking which seems like an ugly solution.
- Workers can't really increase their commute times much but have to keep a reasonable working area at home.
- Schedules will only overlap for meetings etc. if there's a lot of coordination
- Either remote people on a given day will get left out or some of those in-person will resent having to work as if everyone is remote even though they're in-person themselves.
Yeah, and there's a whole skillset required for overcoming a lot of these downsides and the whole company has to proactively work to overcome them.
I also wonder how many companies will get bit by leadership (CEOs, engineering team managers, whoever really) not working as well in a remote environment.
I also wonder how many companies will get bit by leadership (CEOs, engineering team managers, whoever really) not working as well in a remote environment.
How do you interview for these traits? I find that in interviews, everyone presents themselves as hard-working, self-motivated, and highly efficient. It’s not too hard to assess technical skill. But how do you assess self-motivation and good time management more objectively?
There's no perfect way, but my approach is always to be very candid about expectations and consequences. So, I would discuss this very issue and explain how some people are good fits for it and some aren't. There's always been an idealized vision of remote work (e.g., people imagine themselves working from a beach in Fiji).
Also, just looking for people who have successfully worked remotely before is a plus. People who have built meaningful side projects on their own can also be a good sign (although definitely not a sure sign of success).
Also, just looking for people who have successfully worked remotely before is a plus. People who have built meaningful side projects on their own can also be a good sign (although definitely not a sure sign of success).
I've started working from home 2014 and people laughed at me or were downright hostile.
I had to start feelancing and work with international companies to find people who didn't expect me to come to an office.
Good to see this change now.
I had to start feelancing and work with international companies to find people who didn't expect me to come to an office.
Good to see this change now.
People voted with their feet :)
It's nice being in a field where all your compatriots have leverage.
It's nice being in a field where all your compatriots have leverage.
Once companies make the organizational changes to succeed with work from home, it will be trivial to offshore the jobs.
Be careful what you wish for!
Be careful what you wish for!
It could be a realisation that the pandemic - even in relatively highly-vaccinated countries - is far from over.
I'd bet they started running into a recruiting problem.
Recruiters are getting more desperate and from what I've seen offers are rising significantly. And yet it's still not enough.
They're also now calling and texting my phone directly instead of the usual inbox invasion. Absolutely desperate.
Agree. I've had repeated contacts from Amazon recruiters, including multiple "hi there!" emails from the same person even though I've told them no. I'm in a remote midwestern city that might have an Amazon office but certainly not the R&D center they're recruiting for.
Weird, I just had this happen, too. AMZN recruiter reached out, I politely declined, got another message from the same person 2 days later.
At this level they're just resume harvesters. What's really crappy is they reach out to you making it sound like you're Just The Perfect Person for their role, then hand you a pile of shit you need to study to ace the interview.
Guess I'm not the perfect person then or else I'd know all of this, right? Fuck that.
Guess I'm not the perfect person then or else I'd know all of this, right? Fuck that.
Do they not already? I go out of my way to avoid amazon recruiters as I don't want any part of that toxic environment.
What toxic environment?
The whole of Amazon has been tarred with working conditions for their warehouse and drivers. I assume the information workers don't have to piss in bottles and go through metal detectors.
However we just recently heard about Amazon hiring to fire, with an internal policy and broken pursuit-of-metrics that yields fundamental dysfunction.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27111566
However we just recently heard about Amazon hiring to fire, with an internal policy and broken pursuit-of-metrics that yields fundamental dysfunction.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27111566
> My brother Mike... was in the Navy on an aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf during the 1990s Gulf War, and later worked at Amazon, and declared after four years that Amazon was _way_ more stressful
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2009/04/have-you-ever-legali...
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2009/04/have-you-ever-legali...
Was that the article you meant to post? It's a Yegge mega-story. What's the connection?
Nice blog post. He meant it in a positive way, right?
I got promoted working 30 hours a week, maybe don’t work in tier 1 service teams?
>Folks pass the bar
So give up the hazing. We all know the job's not that hard.
So give up the hazing. We all know the job's not that hard.
the reality is that compensation is sh*t, even at L6 level where you are expected to walk on water. a lot (most?) people I know that worked at Amazon used that as a resume builder that allowed them to open doors and land jobs that would be harder to get otherwise.
These are the people that think people like me are subhuman for working at Amazon. Pass.
Not sure why this is news - Amazon is the first company to embrace a hybrid work environment, way before the pandemic... Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday - work from the office. Saturday and Sunday - work from home.
It may be a joke, but this kind of treating employees made it harder and harder for them to justify going through the pain of relocating close to an office with huge property prices around it.
Ex-Amazon here. The joke hits too close to be funny. Plenty of people would also do on-call or other work from home in the evenings or early mornings.
Well now alexa can be supervising them and ensure they stick to their 12 hours of work schedule
Amazon is also really great at creating a shared company culture: their engineers now pee in plastic bottles
Agile workspace (for cats):
https://www.iizcat.com/uploads/2017/08/94gwt-cat-jungle-gym-...
https://www.iizcat.com/uploads/2017/08/94gwt-cat-jungle-gym-...
:')
:)
I see what you did there. It hurts because it’s true.
Kind of a strange wording of the submitted headline, at first glance I thought it meant that Amazon was moving against work-from-home, whereas the articles explains they're going against their initial direction of forcing workers back into the office.
Anybody from Amazon know the backstory about why they really changed the approach?
This doesn’t really mean anything “thinking is predicated on what we believe will be most beneficial for customers, while also trying to give employees more flexibility in their work environment and lives.”
This doesn’t really mean anything “thinking is predicated on what we believe will be most beneficial for customers, while also trying to give employees more flexibility in their work environment and lives.”
It basically matches Apple now. Im thinking it’s based on internal surveys (you do one every day when you log in, and there have been a lot of questions about remote work) and real estate costs - can accommodate more people with hot desking if two orgs don’t overlap their 2 wfh days.
But why change policy now? It just seems like they are begrudgingly following suit rather than genuinely wanting something nice for their employees.
...to...compete?
I think Amazon is having trouble hiring and retaining talent. Given the horrible covid situation in India, the L1 Visa pipeline must have dried up. And their reputation has taken quite a hit given all the stories about PIP and the political/toxic culture, so no experienced engineers wants to go join a place like that. I guess, this is them panicking.
[deleted]
[deleted]
I think Facebook embracing remote work has started a cascade.
You now have a FAANG company that is embracing remote work, and the other companies stand to lose a decent amount of talent to them, so are forced to change what their tune.
You now have a FAANG company that is embracing remote work, and the other companies stand to lose a decent amount of talent to them, so are forced to change what their tune.
Personally I don't think the remote part matters, it's the paying SF money regardless of location that is the draw. I've also had a few FAANG companies ghost me when I said I was not interested in moving to the bay in the last month. 2 from Google, one from FB.
I work there and wouldn’t call this a “reversal”, but rather a clarification on details. They’ve been taking about when they expect people to come back but haven’t said anything about work from home options. Sounds like they’ve settled on a guideline.
I'd expect a certain amount of posturing from both employees and employers regarding this.
I.e., it's a point of contention, and there's an incentive to bluff. Each side wants to make the other side fear the consequences of demanding more than the labor market will bear.
I.e., it's a point of contention, and there's an incentive to bluff. Each side wants to make the other side fear the consequences of demanding more than the labor market will bear.
The title makes it sound as if they were going to expand flexible working and are now not: the article says the opposite, that remote working is being embraced.
Oh, I see. Ok, title edited to be less ambiguous now. Submitted title was "Amazon reverses course in expanding work-from-home options".
I think a comma is needed in the submitted title. The article title is better
"Amazon reverses course, joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options"
"Amazon reverses course, joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options"
I'm assuming the original title didn't fit:
> Amazon reverses course, joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options
A better contracted title than the current one ("Amazon reverses course in expanding...") would be:
> Amazon joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options
or if that doesn't work,
> Amazon reverses course, expanding work-from-home options
@dang
> Amazon reverses course, joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options
A better contracted title than the current one ("Amazon reverses course in expanding...") would be:
> Amazon joins other Seattle tech companies in expanding work-from-home options
or if that doesn't work,
> Amazon reverses course, expanding work-from-home options
@dang
I don't see what's wrong with the submitted title? The limit is 80 chars, so it had to be shortened, and dropping the reference to Seattle is the obvious way to do that; it's in the headline because the publication is a regional one.
Edit: oh, I see - it's because of the problem explained here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27469696. Edited now.
Edit: oh, I see - it's because of the problem explained here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27469696. Edited now.
"Amazone backtracks, open to work from home"
As a consultant, I've been helping startups with their hiring process, and I've noticed, at this point, even very junior engineers, just starting, are expecting flexibility of schedule, and many are looking for work from home options. (I am not saying this is good or bad, I'm only noting it.) At some point in the past I think there was a bit more of an attitude that one had to "pay one's dues", at least for a few years, but now there is more of an assumption of work from home options being available. And even though Amazon is, typically, hiring a more experienced engineer, and paying more, than the startups I've consulted with, this is certainly the right move for them. It's good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered.
I believe the WFH shift is inevitable for the information industry and whoever tries to resist it will be in the wrong side of history.
Covid, for all of its horrors, did bring this positive change which should in the long term help alleviate traffic congestion, reduce the climate impact of commuting and revert the decay of small and medium cities.
In the future, expecting information workers to work in the office every day will feel like requiring them to wear a suit feels today. There will be certain niches that will be stuck in the old ways, and other obvious exceptions where physical interaction with equipment is necessary, but otherwise this change is here to stay.
Its implementation will be gradual after the initial batch of forward-thinking companies adopt it, but unstoppable nonetheless. After a point, companies will greatly prefer flexible workplaces due to reduced hiring costs and overhead, especially as the technology for remote work improves and more people become proficient at working from outside the office.
We should all be prepared for the change. Being effective working from home is a workplace skill like any other; at one time, for instance, information workers had to learn to transition to the typewriter and later to computers. Those who refuse to learn this new skill will eventually be left behind or, at best, have their employment options substantially restricted.
Covid, for all of its horrors, did bring this positive change which should in the long term help alleviate traffic congestion, reduce the climate impact of commuting and revert the decay of small and medium cities.
In the future, expecting information workers to work in the office every day will feel like requiring them to wear a suit feels today. There will be certain niches that will be stuck in the old ways, and other obvious exceptions where physical interaction with equipment is necessary, but otherwise this change is here to stay.
Its implementation will be gradual after the initial batch of forward-thinking companies adopt it, but unstoppable nonetheless. After a point, companies will greatly prefer flexible workplaces due to reduced hiring costs and overhead, especially as the technology for remote work improves and more people become proficient at working from outside the office.
We should all be prepared for the change. Being effective working from home is a workplace skill like any other; at one time, for instance, information workers had to learn to transition to the typewriter and later to computers. Those who refuse to learn this new skill will eventually be left behind or, at best, have their employment options substantially restricted.
>I believe the WFH shift is inevitable for the information industry and whoever tries to resist it will be in the wrong side of history.
I believe the WFH shift is currently in fashion, in the same way that cubicles used to be, then open-offices. 10+ years ago, it was a big thing for a startup, for example, to get some office space at a accelerator just to have a physical location - even though you could do all your work remotely.
At some point, I suspect, work-from-office will come back around.
Big picture: Some people like remote work, some people don't. Some companies will embrace remote work, some won't. This is the same with how some people prefer cubicles (like me!) and others see them as soul-less cages.
I believe the WFH shift is currently in fashion, in the same way that cubicles used to be, then open-offices. 10+ years ago, it was a big thing for a startup, for example, to get some office space at a accelerator just to have a physical location - even though you could do all your work remotely.
At some point, I suspect, work-from-office will come back around.
Big picture: Some people like remote work, some people don't. Some companies will embrace remote work, some won't. This is the same with how some people prefer cubicles (like me!) and others see them as soul-less cages.
> This is the same with how some people prefer cubicles (like me!)
For me it goes like this (best to worse).
Small Office/Cubicle you'd have to be paying spectaculary well.
On-site own office I'd consider for market rate and WFH - just pay me the average for my level.
Basically if you want me on-site it'll cost more, if you want me on-site in a less than ideal working environment (for me) it'll cost even more.
For me it goes like this (best to worse).
WFH Forever (as I currently do).
On-site own office
Small Office (only devs)
Cubicle
Open Office.
Small Office/Cubicle you'd have to be paying spectaculary well.
On-site own office I'd consider for market rate and WFH - just pay me the average for my level.
Basically if you want me on-site it'll cost more, if you want me on-site in a less than ideal working environment (for me) it'll cost even more.
Interesting that you prefer a small (shared) office to a cubicle -- I never worked in one but I imagine it to be a special kind of Hell.
At least with a cubicle your space, such as it is, is your space -- you don't have to share it with John who smells funny or Larry who talks to himself, and so on.
At least with a cubicle your space, such as it is, is your space -- you don't have to share it with John who smells funny or Larry who talks to himself, and so on.
Most shared offices still have separate desks and/or cubicle-like dividers between spaces.
> you don't have to share it with John who smells funny or Larry who talks to himself, and so on
A cubicle room is a shared office with more participants. It's the difference between trying to find an dorm room with a roommate or three versus a cabin full of bunks with dozens of roommates. (The fact that "apartments" with proper offices are so far below the "norm" in work environments versus home environments/living arrangements says so much. When was the last time a cabin full of bunks was something you expected to be in 90% of the year? [Also, I think in this analogy the open office is the church basement full of sleeping bags.])
> you don't have to share it with John who smells funny or Larry who talks to himself, and so on
A cubicle room is a shared office with more participants. It's the difference between trying to find an dorm room with a roommate or three versus a cabin full of bunks with dozens of roommates. (The fact that "apartments" with proper offices are so far below the "norm" in work environments versus home environments/living arrangements says so much. When was the last time a cabin full of bunks was something you expected to be in 90% of the year? [Also, I think in this analogy the open office is the church basement full of sleeping bags.])
> Also, I think in this analogy the open office is the church basement full of sleeping bags.
Only if half the people using the sleeping bags are also practicing the drums.
Only if half the people using the sleeping bags are also practicing the drums.
I can smell and hear my co-workers from my cubicle just fine. In the floor I'm on we have accountants, developers, the help desk, people that write contracts, and our travel desk. There is a lot of competing noise about a ton of different topics. To those, including my boss, that say as remote we miss out on the overhearing about an issue and coming up with a solution, I present you that I overhear about how accounting is categorizing funding, or whether contracts need to have contractors submit insurance more regularly. The developers all have on noise canceling headphones and send chat/email. On really fun days someone cooks fish in the microwave in the nearby kitchenette, but usually it's just smelling the dozen or so cubicles around me.
A small office with only devs in is generally quieter than a cubicle surrounded by cubicles full of non-devs.
There are two things that stop me from working comfortably/well - noise I can't control and visual distractions (and it's gotten worse as I've gotten older).
There are two things that stop me from working comfortably/well - noise I can't control and visual distractions (and it's gotten worse as I've gotten older).
Note that there are three things going on here:
- how good is your office environment as a work environment? (e.g. does it have productivity-destroying measures like being open, or is it acoustically quiet, or has nice facilities, etc). Also applies to home environment!
- how good is your commute (time/cost/gruellingness/exposure to infection from other humans)
- how much are you paying in land/real estate cost to have (a) an office in a prestige location and (b) workers within commuting range to it? There is a huge amount of money being paid to landlords and rentiers in the broader sense, and it would be a big efficiency for the economy as a whole to .. not do that.
- how good is your office environment as a work environment? (e.g. does it have productivity-destroying measures like being open, or is it acoustically quiet, or has nice facilities, etc). Also applies to home environment!
- how good is your commute (time/cost/gruellingness/exposure to infection from other humans)
- how much are you paying in land/real estate cost to have (a) an office in a prestige location and (b) workers within commuting range to it? There is a huge amount of money being paid to landlords and rentiers in the broader sense, and it would be a big efficiency for the economy as a whole to .. not do that.
The commute is the big thing. My preference for WFH has far less to do with the office than it does with the commute. Even living physically close to my job, the commute could be bumper to bumper and just aggravating.
Regular WFH is definitely not in fashion, the discussions of these last few days show it's still in early stage even in FAANGs outside of the COVID context.
> Some people like remote work, some people don't.
And a lot like to have the option to do both, because even if I prefer working at the office being forced to be there every day of the week no matter the circumstances makes no sense for me. What is asked here is flexibility.
> Some people like remote work, some people don't.
And a lot like to have the option to do both, because even if I prefer working at the office being forced to be there every day of the week no matter the circumstances makes no sense for me. What is asked here is flexibility.
> At some point, I suspect, work-from-office will come back around.
It already has. The forward-thinking job candidates advertise willingness to work in an office now, (correctly) inferring that it increases their hireability and promotion chances.
It already has. The forward-thinking job candidates advertise willingness to work in an office now, (correctly) inferring that it increases their hireability and promotion chances.
You're being downvoted but, as someone effectively if not officially full-time remote, I agree with you. There are almost certainly far more opportunities for someone who can come into an office even if just for a day or two a week, a few days every other week, etc. than there are for people living in the mountains someplace who can fly to a week-long team meeting every quarter.
The latter opportunities exist too. That's effectively the situation with my very distributed team although I could drive into an office (where the vast bulk of them are not located). But there are probably far fewer of them.
The latter opportunities exist too. That's effectively the situation with my very distributed team although I could drive into an office (where the vast bulk of them are not located). But there are probably far fewer of them.
We were asked at my company to indicate our wfh preferences for the future so we can plan real estate (we re a big intl bank).
As soon as the result in each team came out, managers were talking abt who s engaged (0 wfh) vs who's not (4-5 days wfh).
I dont care, I put 0 to increase my popularity upstairs as it cost me nothing at all, but you cant help to wonder if companies are sincere in asking people to choose. Just dont ask if you dont want it to happen.
As soon as the result in each team came out, managers were talking abt who s engaged (0 wfh) vs who's not (4-5 days wfh).
I dont care, I put 0 to increase my popularity upstairs as it cost me nothing at all, but you cant help to wonder if companies are sincere in asking people to choose. Just dont ask if you dont want it to happen.
I'm not so sure: now that I'm 40 and have 3 kids I really love WFH. It saves a commute and lets me balance my life/work effectively.
However 21/22 year old me would have hated this! Working from an office was so much fun back then. Plus you'd meet girls at lunch and stuff. Fantastic time. Lots of work, lots of learning the soft skills and lots of laughing around and enjoying myself.
I hope that 24/7 WFH doesn't become a thing, but that we get a mix. Flexibility from both sides, whenever possible.
However 21/22 year old me would have hated this! Working from an office was so much fun back then. Plus you'd meet girls at lunch and stuff. Fantastic time. Lots of work, lots of learning the soft skills and lots of laughing around and enjoying myself.
I hope that 24/7 WFH doesn't become a thing, but that we get a mix. Flexibility from both sides, whenever possible.
It will be a blend in the end.
Right now it is more a fashion thing. Depending on the structure of your company it will work very well or not at at all.
Sometimes throwing 3 people in a room with a whiteboard and a few markers fixes a lot of issues. That sort of thing does not usually happen remote from my exp. But in an office it happens all the time. Sometimes there are too many help vampires. They are good enough but require a lot of hand holding to get up to 'works independent'. The ones they goto are usually the most productive people and that does not happen as much remote. So the more productive ones say 'this is awesome' because they get so much done, but meanwhile the rest of the org is struggling.
Also when you work remote after a few years people 'forget' about you. You get left out of things. Because they just do not see you. If they do not see you, you do not exist to them. I worked remote for about 10 years. I had to be very diligent to be included into things. Recently a few years ago I got to work in an office again with a great group. It was amazing. I learned so much so quickly. I became way more productive. I was able to share a lot more to more jr devs. But now it is back to the same things where I have to spend a lot of time being noticed for anything, and basically having to play a interesting game of 'be nice in email'. Also if you do not have an advocates in management it will be even worse (luckily I do not have that issue this time). Remote work has a lot going for it but also a lot going against it.
But in the end companies will need to measure it. If they don't it is nothing but a guess.
Right now it is more a fashion thing. Depending on the structure of your company it will work very well or not at at all.
Sometimes throwing 3 people in a room with a whiteboard and a few markers fixes a lot of issues. That sort of thing does not usually happen remote from my exp. But in an office it happens all the time. Sometimes there are too many help vampires. They are good enough but require a lot of hand holding to get up to 'works independent'. The ones they goto are usually the most productive people and that does not happen as much remote. So the more productive ones say 'this is awesome' because they get so much done, but meanwhile the rest of the org is struggling.
Also when you work remote after a few years people 'forget' about you. You get left out of things. Because they just do not see you. If they do not see you, you do not exist to them. I worked remote for about 10 years. I had to be very diligent to be included into things. Recently a few years ago I got to work in an office again with a great group. It was amazing. I learned so much so quickly. I became way more productive. I was able to share a lot more to more jr devs. But now it is back to the same things where I have to spend a lot of time being noticed for anything, and basically having to play a interesting game of 'be nice in email'. Also if you do not have an advocates in management it will be even worse (luckily I do not have that issue this time). Remote work has a lot going for it but also a lot going against it.
But in the end companies will need to measure it. If they don't it is nothing but a guess.
<<too many help vampires>>
This is my first time ever to see this description. It is perfect. I am currently sitting next to someone who is exactly this! I cannot figure out if this person is lacking skills or just plain lazy... but they sure take up a lot of my time compared to their net output!
This is my first time ever to see this description. It is perfect. I am currently sitting next to someone who is exactly this! I cannot figure out if this person is lacking skills or just plain lazy... but they sure take up a lot of my time compared to their net output!
The best way to help them is to challenge them with questions. Basically teach them to learn it and ask things like 'did you look at the docs and what did they say?' 'if you were going to do it how would you?...' and so on. One important aspect is to teach them to have their own authority to do things. Basically do not show them exactly how to do something but guide them to learning how to do it. But it can take awhile to 'fix'. No quick answer for that situation.
>lots of learning the soft skills
This is actually something that didn't cross my mind through this whole thing, and I don't know why. I love WFH, and wish my employer would extend the option, rather than take a hardline stance against it (old administration doesn't understand productivity tools so we all suffer).
That being said, if I was just starting out in the working world, my prospects absolutely would've been different as time went on. Working in an office full time 100% helped me realize that soft skills are as, if not more important than technical skill.
As a director of a very diverse department now, I actually look for soft skills more than anything. Technical aspects can be learned via the on-boarding process. Soft skills are so much harder to hone, though. Especially if you're entirely remote.
This is actually something that didn't cross my mind through this whole thing, and I don't know why. I love WFH, and wish my employer would extend the option, rather than take a hardline stance against it (old administration doesn't understand productivity tools so we all suffer).
That being said, if I was just starting out in the working world, my prospects absolutely would've been different as time went on. Working in an office full time 100% helped me realize that soft skills are as, if not more important than technical skill.
As a director of a very diverse department now, I actually look for soft skills more than anything. Technical aspects can be learned via the on-boarding process. Soft skills are so much harder to hone, though. Especially if you're entirely remote.
"meeting girls at lunch" is a lot less of a benefit under modern expectations of workplace behavior.
There may still be benefits though.
But anyway why not join a social club for dating? That's where people go intentionally to socialize, so your "hit rate" will be much higher.
There may still be benefits though.
But anyway why not join a social club for dating? That's where people go intentionally to socialize, so your "hit rate" will be much higher.
This sounds out of touch with reality.
First of all, a social club for dating? Really? Are you sure you're in the right century? People most frequently meet each other dating the same way they always have, with a twist -- friends, institutions (including the workplace), bars and online dating (that's the twist).
Secondly, 22% of Americans met their spouse at work [1], and 27% have indicated they'd be open to it [2]. Does that mean that it's always a reasonable idea, or that it's free of risks and messiness? No and no. The fact that it's sometimes playing with fire isn't going to deter anybody.
Pandemic notwithstanding, Americans spend so much time at work in deeply intimate psychological settings building deep social bonds that it's only natural that romance often develops.
[1] https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140211005135/en/Kee...
[2] https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/one-third-u-s-marriag...
First of all, a social club for dating? Really? Are you sure you're in the right century? People most frequently meet each other dating the same way they always have, with a twist -- friends, institutions (including the workplace), bars and online dating (that's the twist).
Secondly, 22% of Americans met their spouse at work [1], and 27% have indicated they'd be open to it [2]. Does that mean that it's always a reasonable idea, or that it's free of risks and messiness? No and no. The fact that it's sometimes playing with fire isn't going to deter anybody.
Pandemic notwithstanding, Americans spend so much time at work in deeply intimate psychological settings building deep social bonds that it's only natural that romance often develops.
[1] https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140211005135/en/Kee...
[2] https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/one-third-u-s-marriag...
<<"meeting girls at lunch" is a lot less of a benefit under modern expectations of workplace behavior.>>
From what country or culture did you write this comment?
I have lived in East Asia for a long time. Office culture is a major benefit for young people (men/women/straight/gay) to meet partners. It is actively encouraged in many countries in the region.
From what country or culture did you write this comment?
I have lived in East Asia for a long time. Office culture is a major benefit for young people (men/women/straight/gay) to meet partners. It is actively encouraged in many countries in the region.
> "meeting girls at lunch" is a lot less of a benefit under modern expectations of workplace behavior.
I doubt human nature will change because or recent social mores. It will just adapt.
But over time, people tend to date people they meet regularly and get to bond with. I forget the percentages, but I remember reading a study saying that most marriages involve people who were classmates in high school, in college or were coworkers.
> But anyway why not join a social club for dating? That's where people go intentionally to socialize, so your "hit rate" will be much higher.
I'm not OP, but that's an additional effort and not always easy to do (for example your work hours could be longer, the social club might not be close by, etc, a myriad reasons).
See my previous part of the comment: a lot of people find their life partners in their vicinity, without going out of their way to look for them.
I doubt human nature will change because or recent social mores. It will just adapt.
But over time, people tend to date people they meet regularly and get to bond with. I forget the percentages, but I remember reading a study saying that most marriages involve people who were classmates in high school, in college or were coworkers.
> But anyway why not join a social club for dating? That's where people go intentionally to socialize, so your "hit rate" will be much higher.
I'm not OP, but that's an additional effort and not always easy to do (for example your work hours could be longer, the social club might not be close by, etc, a myriad reasons).
See my previous part of the comment: a lot of people find their life partners in their vicinity, without going out of their way to look for them.
They don't have to be colleagues, but going out with the guys at lunch was a lot of fun :)
Here in the UK, I see the battle still raging from both sides. I have been remote for 3 or so years now, so during covid it was business as usual for me. I have a dedicated room in my house for a "work" office, and plan to convert the roof into a hobby office. Having a dedicated room really helps me get into work mode.
In the UK I'm starting to see a push to get back into the office by the media. Stories about how "most" people want to go back into the office, which goes strongly against what I've heard from colleagues (which, to be fair is only tech people). I've heard the argument about being trapped in a small home/flat can be an issue, especially with kids, so I can see that being a driver to get back in the office.
Some more management and sales type people have told me quick communication face to face is missing with remote working, but for me, an information worker, I value not being interrupted every 10 mins. I can put my slack on DnD and block out mornings or afternoons for deep work.
I lived in the outskirts of London and commuted in for a long time when I was getting started in this career. Now I'm 10 years in, I'm over spending £650/$900 a month on a train ticket, spending 1h 30m each way to commute in and then spending £10 on lunch every day. At home I can cook good, cheap, home cooked meals. I can go for a walk at lunch time and start and finish when I want to, as long as work is complete.
People have also told me they miss social time in the office. I'm more introverted, so I miss this much less, but if it's a big loss, maybe you need to socialise more outside of work.
Now, 18 months into COVID, I have decided I never want to go back into an office, if I can help it. I know not everyone can do this, but for me, I've committed so much that I've moved away from London up to the North of England. I want to continue to arbitrage between London tech rates and cheaper locations as long as I can.
I'm sorry to say but I think most big cities will keep a significant loss of visitors. Those that can move will do. The brain drain from a country into capital cities I feel is reversing, and I think it's for the best. We can help revitalise smaller areas and tech like the internet, video calls and the acceptance of things like Slack will power it.
So right now, I think its a battle between employers and staff. Employers mostly want people back in the office (for some reason, I'm still not sure why), and most employees want to be remote, or at least have the option. Who will break first is the big question. An employer willing to hire from a bigger pool of people is bound to, over time, gain a competitive edge.
In the UK I'm starting to see a push to get back into the office by the media. Stories about how "most" people want to go back into the office, which goes strongly against what I've heard from colleagues (which, to be fair is only tech people). I've heard the argument about being trapped in a small home/flat can be an issue, especially with kids, so I can see that being a driver to get back in the office.
Some more management and sales type people have told me quick communication face to face is missing with remote working, but for me, an information worker, I value not being interrupted every 10 mins. I can put my slack on DnD and block out mornings or afternoons for deep work.
I lived in the outskirts of London and commuted in for a long time when I was getting started in this career. Now I'm 10 years in, I'm over spending £650/$900 a month on a train ticket, spending 1h 30m each way to commute in and then spending £10 on lunch every day. At home I can cook good, cheap, home cooked meals. I can go for a walk at lunch time and start and finish when I want to, as long as work is complete.
People have also told me they miss social time in the office. I'm more introverted, so I miss this much less, but if it's a big loss, maybe you need to socialise more outside of work.
Now, 18 months into COVID, I have decided I never want to go back into an office, if I can help it. I know not everyone can do this, but for me, I've committed so much that I've moved away from London up to the North of England. I want to continue to arbitrage between London tech rates and cheaper locations as long as I can.
I'm sorry to say but I think most big cities will keep a significant loss of visitors. Those that can move will do. The brain drain from a country into capital cities I feel is reversing, and I think it's for the best. We can help revitalise smaller areas and tech like the internet, video calls and the acceptance of things like Slack will power it.
So right now, I think its a battle between employers and staff. Employers mostly want people back in the office (for some reason, I'm still not sure why), and most employees want to be remote, or at least have the option. Who will break first is the big question. An employer willing to hire from a bigger pool of people is bound to, over time, gain a competitive edge.
> An employer willing to hire from a bigger pool of people is bound to, over time, gain a competitive edge.
I am not too sure. When you recruit in really small pools (say 10 devs in a town) and score one of the worst engineers in the pool the next one to recruit is probably better. You don't have that effect in big pools where the untried pool share is almost still the same.
Also if the recruiting is worse than chance (quite common in my experience), having a bigger pool is worse and you ideally want one qualified candidate.
I am not too sure. When you recruit in really small pools (say 10 devs in a town) and score one of the worst engineers in the pool the next one to recruit is probably better. You don't have that effect in big pools where the untried pool share is almost still the same.
Also if the recruiting is worse than chance (quite common in my experience), having a bigger pool is worse and you ideally want one qualified candidate.
> spending £650/$900 a month on a train ticket
Holy cow! People switch jobs when offered smaller raises than that.
Holy cow! People switch jobs when offered smaller raises than that.
I'd be about $500/month to commute into Boston daily between rail/transit pass and parking.
> spending 1h 30m each way to commute in
That's crazy - where on the outskirts of London did you live? Birmingham?
That's crazy - where on the outskirts of London did you live? Birmingham?
I had a 2 hour commute in - and I was 30 miles out of London. Drive to train station, get train, walk/Tube to office and that was on a good day with no train delays, I stuck it for 4 years
Moved to the Midwest where I had a 15 minute commute and could afford a home (which I am currently WHF from)
No opinion on the accuracy but there are numbers out there [1] that an hour or more is pretty average. Not London, but I live about 40 miles out of a major city in the Northeast US near a commuter rail and a major highway and it takes me a good 90 minutes+ if I'm traveling into the city for the day either by train or car. (I did actually commute about half-time for about 18 months at one point.)
[1] https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/londoners-commute-74-mi...
[1] https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/londoners-commute-74-mi...
Get a house that's 30 mins from your job via walk-train-walk [1] then change to a job on the other side of london, via walk-train-underground-train-bus [2]
[1] https://goo.gl/maps/UcNQmsbTE5Q3ni5c8 [2] https://goo.gl/maps/aFJ2Ut1ZLgmNGN266
[1] https://goo.gl/maps/UcNQmsbTE5Q3ni5c8 [2] https://goo.gl/maps/aFJ2Ut1ZLgmNGN266
Not the GP or in London but this was my commute in LA from Pasadena to Santa Monica (~20 miles). If I left at 5am, it'd take less than 30 minutes but return traffic wouldn't clear up till 8-9pm so on most days it made sense to just suffer normal traffic. On a bad day I'd be in my car in bumper to bumper traffic for 5 hours.
Let's just say I have mixed feelings about the pandemic
Let's just say I have mixed feelings about the pandemic
Wow this is so real. Thank you to share your anecdata! Internet jerks asks: "Who don't you just move to Santa Monica!!??" Zero trolling: Do you have a romantic partner who is tied to Pasadena area or is there a better(!) reason why you suffer this awful commute? I could understand well if you are caring for an elderly or sick person in Pasadena, but worked long term for a firm in Santa Monica. (Real life is tough.)
I was splitting an apartment with a family friend in my hometown in a really nice quadplex where I grew up, for $700/mo. Something comparable in Santa Monica would have cost well over twice that and I'd have a stranger for a roommate. The savings worked out to $10-20 per hour of driving so while not life changing, it was pretty substantial.
I quickly learned to cope by making full use of the company provided gym: I'd leave at 5am and spend 3 hours at the gym doing stretches, exercising, watching TV on my phone, and going to the sauna/steam rooms (daily! it was amazing). Since everyone was in the same boat wrt traffic, we'd all take a long lunch most days and leave later, like 7-8pm which made evening traffic more managable. Most weekends I'd drive 3 hours one way to visit family anyway so I got used to it.
Like I said, I have mixed feelings about the pandemic. Getting 3-4 hours of my life back each day has been incredible. Never going back to any commute.
I quickly learned to cope by making full use of the company provided gym: I'd leave at 5am and spend 3 hours at the gym doing stretches, exercising, watching TV on my phone, and going to the sauna/steam rooms (daily! it was amazing). Since everyone was in the same boat wrt traffic, we'd all take a long lunch most days and leave later, like 7-8pm which made evening traffic more managable. Most weekends I'd drive 3 hours one way to visit family anyway so I got used to it.
Like I said, I have mixed feelings about the pandemic. Getting 3-4 hours of my life back each day has been incredible. Never going back to any commute.
A 90 minute commute? No wonder you prefer remote work...
I don't know that the climate impact is necessarily settled: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200218-why-working-fr...
(note that I'm generally pro wfh, but on the climate side it is feasible that running the AC or heat in your home more during the day is less efficient than driving to work and congregating with bunch of people in a building designed for energy efficiency. I'm not saying that the claim in that article is true, just that I'm not sure that it's settled)
Anecdotally, I ended up getting a CO2 monitor for my house, and had to set the central air fan to run pretty regularly (when not feasible to open windows, which is much of the year year -- quite hot) to circulate the air to keep CO2 levels at a point where they weren't potentially effecting my cognitive abilities (i noticed that's I'd start feeling lethargic and getting headaches, etc). The house is just designed to be sealed up for efficiency, rather than an office building which is often designed to circulate air to avoid that problem. CO2 levels throughout the house have dropped, but there's certainly an energy cost to that.
(note that I'm generally pro wfh, but on the climate side it is feasible that running the AC or heat in your home more during the day is less efficient than driving to work and congregating with bunch of people in a building designed for energy efficiency. I'm not saying that the claim in that article is true, just that I'm not sure that it's settled)
Anecdotally, I ended up getting a CO2 monitor for my house, and had to set the central air fan to run pretty regularly (when not feasible to open windows, which is much of the year year -- quite hot) to circulate the air to keep CO2 levels at a point where they weren't potentially effecting my cognitive abilities (i noticed that's I'd start feeling lethargic and getting headaches, etc). The house is just designed to be sealed up for efficiency, rather than an office building which is often designed to circulate air to avoid that problem. CO2 levels throughout the house have dropped, but there's certainly an energy cost to that.
I've started a new job remotely this year with quite a few junior engineers in the team, and I'm definitely finding it's much harder to mentor and make sure that they're taking the right paths while solving a problem than it was in the office. Flexibility is undoubtedly a good thing, however like you I think there is an element of paying your dues that is perhaps missing in the current environment.
What does paying your dues mean and how does it make you more effective in your opinion?
I think a lot of the skills you learn around how you interact with people in a professional setting, developing a sense of when to ask someone for help vs. work through a problem yourself, and how to develop software professionally. I've found that we have a lot more work taken down a wrong path because it's not as easy to check in on someone remotely without it coming across as micromanagement of more junior developers. I appreciate that a fair portion of that "blame" lays with the more senior members, but I've at least found that some things that would easily be resolved face to face, or with the kind of coffee break chat you get in person, have festered on longer than they necessarily should have.
all great points! this is why I'm not the hugest fan of "remote-optional" workplaces. remote-native companies tend to develop methods to achieve what you've mentioned without being in an office. remote-optional.. not as much.
Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field.
Generally there’s nothing in-person provides them that proper management in general does not. You’d both be looking at code anyway, on a screen, so pair programming is the same no matter the distance.
And there’s also the fact that experienced hires tend to not want to always baby juniors anyway. They need to learn how to read documentation and spend time on writing code. That’s mostly it for the first few years.
Generally there’s nothing in-person provides them that proper management in general does not. You’d both be looking at code anyway, on a screen, so pair programming is the same no matter the distance.
And there’s also the fact that experienced hires tend to not want to always baby juniors anyway. They need to learn how to read documentation and spend time on writing code. That’s mostly it for the first few years.
Not everyone is a loner, and the people who aren't loners tend to get promoted more.
The most amazing programmer in my team, who is a loner, is 5-10years behind on the promotion ladder (against his desire).
The most amazing programmer in my team, who is a loner, is 5-10years behind on the promotion ladder (against his desire).
> Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field.
You might be from a different era :-)
IT is a mass employer these days, there is no "not cut out of the field". Companies need software. They'll be bad engineers, but they'll be engineers regardless.
You might be from a different era :-)
IT is a mass employer these days, there is no "not cut out of the field". Companies need software. They'll be bad engineers, but they'll be engineers regardless.
This is a fascinating point that I had not considered. Thank you! I think you're right.
> Ehhh I’m skeptical about juniors needing face to face. Those juniors might just not be cut out for the field.
If your company's chat rooms are great, the onboarding might go well. Otherwise there's a big difference between noticing your boss/buddy is looking at their phone or having another kind of break and sneaking in a question or vice versa, noticing your junior dev's frustrated face, and looking at the green signal next to their name and wondering if it's a good time for a call.
If your company's chat rooms are great, the onboarding might go well. Otherwise there's a big difference between noticing your boss/buddy is looking at their phone or having another kind of break and sneaking in a question or vice versa, noticing your junior dev's frustrated face, and looking at the green signal next to their name and wondering if it's a good time for a call.
> bit more of an attitude that one had to "pay one's dues"
I think people started asking questions like "to whom am I paying and do I get a receipt" and "what do I get in return for these dues". If there's zero loyalty from the employer side and everyone's just an instantly replaceable gig worker, the concept vanishes.
> good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered.
100% this.
I think people started asking questions like "to whom am I paying and do I get a receipt" and "what do I get in return for these dues". If there's zero loyalty from the employer side and everyone's just an instantly replaceable gig worker, the concept vanishes.
> good for a company to offer flexibility and to be very clear about exactly what is being offered.
100% this.
8am-5pm - work from office
5pm-2am - work from home
thank you amazon for flexible work arrangements!
5pm-2am - work from home
thank you amazon for flexible work arrangements!
I genuinely have never heard anybody have to work this much at Amazon. I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve had to work more than 9 hours a day (it’s once, 3 year tenure).
While the above may have been a joke, its not a secret that work life harmony and culture are perhaps the worst aspects of Amazon (talking of the corporate side of course, not including warehouses)
The biggest problem is we aren't compensated well. I only make $200k as a mid-level engineer.
That's insane money for just about any region in the US, outside of maybe the bay area. I'm not trying to offend you, but the fact that you're making that much as a mid-level engineer with what I'm assuming not a lot of experience and still think you're under-compensated tells me you're not connected well with reality outside of Amazon and FANG in general. In fact, you'd be lucky to be making 6 figures outside of the FANG bubble at mid-level.
LOL you do realize that is way above market value for a mid-level engineer?
Look up L5/T4/1-level-below-senior on levels.fyi. I don’t think this is above market value at all.
Edit: Not an uncommon view either, see - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27473505
Edit: Not an uncommon view either, see - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27473505
The weird part about the wide range of pay across the country and companies is, I cannot tell if this is a joke or not.
I’m not joking
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Doesn't that depend on how high on the hierarchy you are and whether you're doing infrastructure work versus a more laid back product or sales role?
I know people at AWS, Alexa, Prime Video, PeopleTech and they all have roughly the same experience.
I have heard this at Facebook though, where 9-to-9 is more typical, but you know, you don't see people complaining about that online.
I have heard this at Facebook though, where 9-to-9 is more typical, but you know, you don't see people complaining about that online.
You left out 5am-8am
And so begins the race to the bottom. It's just a few days in the office now but in time workers will be given complete control over where they work.
If you can do your job from anywhere, somebody from anywhere can do your job. That's the risk.
Sure that's the risk but fortunately that's not reality. If anything, the job opportunities are so numerous now because companies are no longer geographically restricting themselves, finding a job is going to be much easier in an already saturated (software development) market.
I've seen salaries of my peers getting remote jobs increase by 50% across the board, it's kind of insane right now.
I've seen salaries of my peers getting remote jobs increase by 50% across the board, it's kind of insane right now.
Realistically, this has barriers in legal and tax implications. Employing someone in the EU has an entirely different legal and tax burden than employing someone in the US. For large companies, guess what: They were already doing this anyway. My last company had a dozen major tech sites around the world. But for small companies, like my current one, this is an effective barrier. And it even happens between states in the US, typically on a smaller scale.
Absolutely, with the productivity gains I wonder if the world will need less developers.
There are many risks to offshoring as well. The accidental and irreversible 500 million dollar wire from Citibank for example.
What if this happened from the New York City headquarters? Or London, Frankfurt, Toronto, Sydney, Auckland, etc. Would you still post it? This comment feels at little bit discriminitory.
I’m curious are all these companies going to cover the costs of setting up and maintaining home offices?
Yes, many companies did that. In our company, we were allowed to take any device/desk to home.
In Switzerland, Gov asked companies to pay % of rent. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/court-decision_companies-must-p...
The only exception was Germany. There is ongoing discussion that Remote workers should pay a (*5% tax*) for having flexibility/option to work from home. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5pe...
In Switzerland, Gov asked companies to pay % of rent. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/court-decision_companies-must-p...
The only exception was Germany. There is ongoing discussion that Remote workers should pay a (*5% tax*) for having flexibility/option to work from home. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/12/deutsche-bank-proposes-a-5pe...
The only reason it makes sense is that flexibility is a privilege and privilege is afforded for those who can sustain a tax, generally. Seems awful for call center employees who are not given an office, though
I've been toying with the idea of starting a side-business of setting up home offices.
I'm a WFH software developer, and I have some experience with residential construction and soundproofing. I'm considering teaming up with a full-time building contractor to start targeting this niche market.
I'm a WFH software developer, and I have some experience with residential construction and soundproofing. I'm considering teaming up with a full-time building contractor to start targeting this niche market.
It does require a cultural shift in an organization, and I do find that companies that are half-remote/half-onsite or some mixture tend to do significantly worse than companies that go all-in on remote or all-in on staying in the office because the mix always leads to remote folks being left out of important political nuances handled in the hallway and break-rooms.
I don't see myself ever working for Amazon for a myriad of reasons (or most of the other FAANG companies for that matter), but I do think this issue is more complex in a large organization than many WFH advocates give it credit for. That said, I never intend to go back to an office other than for occasional visits for the remainder of my life/career.