Ask HN: Words of encouragement for someone lost in life?
258 comments
I'm in your age range and sadly I'm hearing from A LOT of young men that Tinder is really damaging their self esteem (specifically the lack of matches most men get which can feel as bad as getting rejected face to face a thousand times to some men).
It's also disgusting that these apps take advantage of vulnerable young men desperate for connection by up-selling them on an endlessly growing list of paid add-ons that supposedly increase your odds of finding a partner (Boosts, Super Likes, Plus, Super Boost, Plus, Gold, Platinum, it never ends). Unfortunately, society at large does not really care that much about young men's mental health as much, so you won't see the media covering this predatory behavior targeting men.
IMO dating apps are probably doing more harm than good to young men in general, I think you're going to have to find ways to socialize in person. Maybe Meetups (the site/app) but don't just stick to coding stuff, branch out.
Also, I heard Tinder is like 70%+ male. Tinder is just not a good app for average guys.
Actually I know even above average guys (handsome, jacked, top 5-10% income) who don't have as much success as you might think (they can get women, but they have to jump through a lot of hoops just to get a woman who is quite frankly below their level, objectively speaking. To the point they question if it's even worth doing the dancing monkey routine.) They usually find women are far more receptive IRL compared to on the dating apps.
It's also disgusting that these apps take advantage of vulnerable young men desperate for connection by up-selling them on an endlessly growing list of paid add-ons that supposedly increase your odds of finding a partner (Boosts, Super Likes, Plus, Super Boost, Plus, Gold, Platinum, it never ends). Unfortunately, society at large does not really care that much about young men's mental health as much, so you won't see the media covering this predatory behavior targeting men.
IMO dating apps are probably doing more harm than good to young men in general, I think you're going to have to find ways to socialize in person. Maybe Meetups (the site/app) but don't just stick to coding stuff, branch out.
Also, I heard Tinder is like 70%+ male. Tinder is just not a good app for average guys.
Actually I know even above average guys (handsome, jacked, top 5-10% income) who don't have as much success as you might think (they can get women, but they have to jump through a lot of hoops just to get a woman who is quite frankly below their level, objectively speaking. To the point they question if it's even worth doing the dancing monkey routine.) They usually find women are far more receptive IRL compared to on the dating apps.
This is extremely relatable and true. Thank you.
The Tinder game is so horrible, 5% of the women get the attention of 80% of the men or more, leaving both the men and women in the other group feeling like there is something wrong with them. People feel the need to edit themselves in order to fit the false narrative created by these gamified dating scenarios, or else experience the fear of dying alone.
There is nothing wrong with you.
Our complicated, 3-dimensional, deep, personalities and lives are not meant to be reduced to a catalog, best consumed on the toilet, dismissed or accepted instantly based upon a false presentation designed to harness the evolutionary biology of actual living beings.
For money.
This is not constrained to human society. There is an amusing anecdote of the Australian Jewel Beetle that also experiences the Tinder Effect. This nearly caused their extinction. I encourage you to watch Donald Hoffman's 2015 TED Talk "Do we see reality as it is?"[0] linked below for your convenience. I've timestamped the relevant section, skip forward about 100 seconds or so for the direct discussion of the Australian jewel beetle.
[0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349
The Tinder game is so horrible, 5% of the women get the attention of 80% of the men or more, leaving both the men and women in the other group feeling like there is something wrong with them. People feel the need to edit themselves in order to fit the false narrative created by these gamified dating scenarios, or else experience the fear of dying alone.
There is nothing wrong with you.
Our complicated, 3-dimensional, deep, personalities and lives are not meant to be reduced to a catalog, best consumed on the toilet, dismissed or accepted instantly based upon a false presentation designed to harness the evolutionary biology of actual living beings.
For money.
This is not constrained to human society. There is an amusing anecdote of the Australian Jewel Beetle that also experiences the Tinder Effect. This nearly caused their extinction. I encourage you to watch Donald Hoffman's 2015 TED Talk "Do we see reality as it is?"[0] linked below for your convenience. I've timestamped the relevant section, skip forward about 100 seconds or so for the direct discussion of the Australian jewel beetle.
[0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349
> [0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349
While most of the talk is great, he just handwaves the idea that reality is not "brains and neurons," nor what physicists try to model, but he makes no effort in explaining what's the difference between "reality" and "physics."
It would be great if someone who understood that last part could explain it.
While most of the talk is great, he just handwaves the idea that reality is not "brains and neurons," nor what physicists try to model, but he makes no effort in explaining what's the difference between "reality" and "physics."
It would be great if someone who understood that last part could explain it.
Yes, that is true, he acknowledges that he doesn't know what reality "really is" otherwise.
Consider Emmanuel Kant's Rose Colored glasses for a moment before dismissing Hoffman's ideas outright. This idea has been brushed against before, I find it very interesting and supplies a lot of fertile earth to till.
If you would like to engage further, I recommend Curt Jaimungal's multi-hour conversation with Dr. Hoffman on his podcast "Theories of Everything".
The link to his youtube video of the discussion is here, it's available on the podcast RSS feeds too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmieNQH7Q4w
Consider Emmanuel Kant's Rose Colored glasses for a moment before dismissing Hoffman's ideas outright. This idea has been brushed against before, I find it very interesting and supplies a lot of fertile earth to till.
If you would like to engage further, I recommend Curt Jaimungal's multi-hour conversation with Dr. Hoffman on his podcast "Theories of Everything".
The link to his youtube video of the discussion is here, it's available on the podcast RSS feeds too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmieNQH7Q4w
^And 1 hour after I write this comment, a woman from online dating who I arranged to meet just stood me up, no response well past our agreed meeting time :)
We're not alone buddy, many men are experiencing the same frustrations with the humiliating/degrading jester routine of online dating, it's just that men suffer in silence in this society so it doesn't get talked about a lot. Online dating is filled with a lot of BS games like this, especially for men.
We're not alone buddy, many men are experiencing the same frustrations with the humiliating/degrading jester routine of online dating, it's just that men suffer in silence in this society so it doesn't get talked about a lot. Online dating is filled with a lot of BS games like this, especially for men.
I highly recommend Esther Perel’s work and specifically her two podcasts on commodetized relationships without accountability - ghosting, summering etc.
https://overcast.fm/+P0dZxP_w
https://overcast.fm/+P0dZxP_w
Tinder has completely messed up dating in terms of spontaneously meeting people. The only chance normal guys have for dating now is via their friend groups and with girls who don't use Tinder (which is still a surprising percentage in certain circles of 'nerdier' girls)
In my opinion the best bet is to choose an activity and do it. You will naturally socialize with other like minded individuals, have some fun, maybe even learn a useful skill, and you will for certain feel good doing it :)
People (generalizing here) are attracted to happy, engaged, healthy people. Attractiveness markers are health markers. If you find yourself with an internal voice telling you you are bad or wrong or not good enough, may I humbly suggest adopting this mantra in their place: "I can become good at anything."
because you can.
People (generalizing here) are attracted to happy, engaged, healthy people. Attractiveness markers are health markers. If you find yourself with an internal voice telling you you are bad or wrong or not good enough, may I humbly suggest adopting this mantra in their place: "I can become good at anything."
because you can.
This is excellent advice. I was 26, living alone in Chicago, and I was having a hard time making friends- let alone getting a date. I signed up to learn French at the Alliance Francaise - and I ended up meeting my wife. We’ve been happily married for 16 years.
My assumption from the outside is that Tinder is a hookup site, and that you’re not going to meet anyone worth dating there anyway. I’d suggest volunteering with orgs which look to be supported by young members, business groups targeted towards “young professionals”, etc. I’d look for groups that either have regular members or encourage some kind of repeat involvement, so that you have time to meet people and make friends naturally. Lastly, I think it’s important to join such groups with the intent on having fun.
I wish you all the best. I promise you that there are others out there who are also trying to make friends and find someone special.
My assumption from the outside is that Tinder is a hookup site, and that you’re not going to meet anyone worth dating there anyway. I’d suggest volunteering with orgs which look to be supported by young members, business groups targeted towards “young professionals”, etc. I’d look for groups that either have regular members or encourage some kind of repeat involvement, so that you have time to meet people and make friends naturally. Lastly, I think it’s important to join such groups with the intent on having fun.
I wish you all the best. I promise you that there are others out there who are also trying to make friends and find someone special.
Just as a counter point to hookups are bad I met my wife by randomly hooking up with her at a bar. Just because people are interested in finding people to have sex with doesn’t reduce their worth.
Hi & congrats! What you say is very true, but I would like to point out that you were following my advice.
Bars are a classic social gathering and definitely work too. Bar activities include casual conversations, billiards, dart games, magic tricks (there are scads of tricks with cups and drinks) dancing, etc
Personally I avoid bars, but it is indeed fine when approached with appropriate caution (as would be rock climbing gyms, for example, which are a stellar choice btw)
Personally I avoid bars, but it is indeed fine when approached with appropriate caution (as would be rock climbing gyms, for example, which are a stellar choice btw)
Sorry you misunderstand. This is much closer to hooking up with someone from Tinder which is why I drew the comparison. We left together about fifteen minutes after meeting one another.
It’s also ironic that I’ve climbed a lot and never found anyone to date let alone that I get on with as well.
It’s also ironic that I’ve climbed a lot and never found anyone to date let alone that I get on with as well.
I strongly disagree that bar hookups are the same as Tinder because you can achieve hookups quickly. I question if you have used tinder recently.
In bar scenarios, you are both moving around and maybe a bit uninbibited, exhibiting relaxed body language, talking and engaging in some courtship behaviors. You can see how people interact in the real world.
Swiping left or right as you contemlate the causes of hemorrhoids is so far divorced from this normal behavior, and there is no bar algorithm beseeching you to "super like" a curated, mostly fake dating profile chosen not for your future engagement ring, but as a sales tactic to drive "engagement". Buying someone a drink is only superficially similar to internet (paid) likes.
It isn't impossible for it to work fine, but Tinder sucks for society.
In bar scenarios, you are both moving around and maybe a bit uninbibited, exhibiting relaxed body language, talking and engaging in some courtship behaviors. You can see how people interact in the real world.
Swiping left or right as you contemlate the causes of hemorrhoids is so far divorced from this normal behavior, and there is no bar algorithm beseeching you to "super like" a curated, mostly fake dating profile chosen not for your future engagement ring, but as a sales tactic to drive "engagement". Buying someone a drink is only superficially similar to internet (paid) likes.
It isn't impossible for it to work fine, but Tinder sucks for society.
This is spot on, pick an activity that you are interested in and make it your serious hobby. And it doesn't have to be just one activity, pick a few. However, don't pick an activity just because you think that where you can find relationships. Also some activities are just not that good for meeting people. There has to be some balance of your interest and social opportunities.
In my case, when I first got serious about dealing with unbearable loneliness, I went down very dark path of gurus and pickup artists, who basically advocated doing things just for hooking up. I did end up trying a lot of things but not all activities were that interesting to me. It took a long time for me to realize what really interested me and I focused on only those activities which actually made me connect with people at deeper level. However, I was not feeling lonely anymore, so I am not sure if I would have figured out what really interested me if I was still lonely.
I suggest to start off, try a lot of different activities, until you find something that you truly enjoy. Here are a few suggestions,
Outdoors free yoga classes - not indoors. In my experience, people are friendly in outdoors classes but most women don't want to talk to anyone. So don't ruin it by forcing conversation. If anything, make some new guy friends.
Rock climbing - hate to suggest it as rock climbing community is very friendly and don't want it to get ruined by people joining it just for hookups. It is also very good mental and physical exercise.
Dog - Volunteer to take your friends' dogs to dog parks, especially if there is one with good social scene. Girls will start conversations with you. If you do enjoy taking care of a dog, adopt one or start volunteering at your local shelter.
Running - Running is one sports where women outnumber men. Join a local running group. But any sports club would do, crossfit gyms maybe another option.
In my case, when I first got serious about dealing with unbearable loneliness, I went down very dark path of gurus and pickup artists, who basically advocated doing things just for hooking up. I did end up trying a lot of things but not all activities were that interesting to me. It took a long time for me to realize what really interested me and I focused on only those activities which actually made me connect with people at deeper level. However, I was not feeling lonely anymore, so I am not sure if I would have figured out what really interested me if I was still lonely.
I suggest to start off, try a lot of different activities, until you find something that you truly enjoy. Here are a few suggestions,
Outdoors free yoga classes - not indoors. In my experience, people are friendly in outdoors classes but most women don't want to talk to anyone. So don't ruin it by forcing conversation. If anything, make some new guy friends.
Rock climbing - hate to suggest it as rock climbing community is very friendly and don't want it to get ruined by people joining it just for hookups. It is also very good mental and physical exercise.
Dog - Volunteer to take your friends' dogs to dog parks, especially if there is one with good social scene. Girls will start conversations with you. If you do enjoy taking care of a dog, adopt one or start volunteering at your local shelter.
Running - Running is one sports where women outnumber men. Join a local running group. But any sports club would do, crossfit gyms maybe another option.
I’ll provide a perspective not usually found on programming forums - over 6 months of usage, I had ~250 matches on Tinder when I was 23. I’m not unusually attractive by any stretch, but before I started I treated getting matches as a technical problem and A/B tested pictures as well as seriously studied what types of pictures tend to do well, and deliberately shot each type.
Of those 250 matches, I didn’t message half. These were people with almost nothing in their profile who I also didn’t find particularly attractive. Half the people I did message didn’t respond back or ghosted after a few messages
So about 60 short to medium conversations. In the majority of those, it was clear that they weren’t particularly interested in dating or were on the app for an ego boost(or perhaps I wasn’t attractive enough for them)
I was able to get about a dozen numbers, out of which a third ghosted me and a third got ghosted by me. I dated 2 people casually and met 1 woman that caused me to delete the app, and I have been with her for 1.5 years.
If I had to start over again, I reckon the odds of me finding a relationship is very very low. The LTR started after the girl messaged me first( which happened like 1% of the time) but it was obvious she was attracted and interested in meeting. But I count myself very lucky that happened. I would likely be single if I didn’t match with her.
TL;DR: Tinder is a huge crapshoot even if you’re getting matches
Of those 250 matches, I didn’t message half. These were people with almost nothing in their profile who I also didn’t find particularly attractive. Half the people I did message didn’t respond back or ghosted after a few messages
So about 60 short to medium conversations. In the majority of those, it was clear that they weren’t particularly interested in dating or were on the app for an ego boost(or perhaps I wasn’t attractive enough for them)
I was able to get about a dozen numbers, out of which a third ghosted me and a third got ghosted by me. I dated 2 people casually and met 1 woman that caused me to delete the app, and I have been with her for 1.5 years.
If I had to start over again, I reckon the odds of me finding a relationship is very very low. The LTR started after the girl messaged me first( which happened like 1% of the time) but it was obvious she was attracted and interested in meeting. But I count myself very lucky that happened. I would likely be single if I didn’t match with her.
TL;DR: Tinder is a huge crapshoot even if you’re getting matches
I agree. It's like a more revenue generating version of social media. I think it's important for people to put themselves out there in real life. At least for me, since joining Tinder when I entered university, every real and meaningful romantic interaction has come from people I've met in person, and I've been using Tinder for years now. Talking to someone in person has a higher success rate, but is definitely more nerve racking. I've come to see that nervousness as a sign that I should shoot my shot. This isn't even just talking to women. Ever sing karaoke? That's nerve racking, but that nervous feeling that I get just makes me know I have to do it to just get a little more well rounded.
Most of the time, social networks tend to hurt self esteem. That applies to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Reddit, and even HN to a certain extent (seeing FANG devs can make you feel inadequate). Moderation is key, but if you're having trouble moderating yourself, just get off and get into the real world. People are much better there in my experience. Meeting people in person can be tricky, but that's a whole extra layer of complexity.
Most of the time, social networks tend to hurt self esteem. That applies to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Reddit, and even HN to a certain extent (seeing FANG devs can make you feel inadequate). Moderation is key, but if you're having trouble moderating yourself, just get off and get into the real world. People are much better there in my experience. Meeting people in person can be tricky, but that's a whole extra layer of complexity.
I was quite literally obsessed with programming. I would wake up in the morning, program all day, go to sleep, and repeat it the next day. This earned me many accolades in college and a great job afterward. But, like you, if I paused for a moment to reflect, I felt so incredibly empty and alone. The programming increasingly became an escapist activity to avoid these feelings. Then one day my old high school friend, whom I had not seen in many years, invited me to spend time with his friends from the Air Force. Stepping outside of my bubble was incredibly refreshing. None of these people knew anything, nor cared, about computers or programming. Wow! What was the point of everything I was doing? This thing I spent so much time on, truly the focus of my life, and these people do not even care one bit about it. How can they even live? Lol. I then decided to take the whole thing MUCH less seriously and branch out into all kinds of areas.
Here are things to consider doing
- drastically reduce the amount of time you spend behind a screen (even immediately throw away a lot of math/science/etc paraphernalia)
- join a regular gym
- start lifting weights
- join a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym
- sincerely evaluate your style of dress (do you give off a feminine-milquetoast or masculine vibe) visit Reddit, etc for ideas
- if you are a gamer, immediately stop
- sign up for volunteering / toastmasters / improv class / races / all varieties of dancing / meetups / doordash / Uber driver (point being, meet more people, put yourself out there way more)
Here are things to consider doing
- drastically reduce the amount of time you spend behind a screen (even immediately throw away a lot of math/science/etc paraphernalia)
- join a regular gym
- start lifting weights
- join a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym
- sincerely evaluate your style of dress (do you give off a feminine-milquetoast or masculine vibe) visit Reddit, etc for ideas
- if you are a gamer, immediately stop
- sign up for volunteering / toastmasters / improv class / races / all varieties of dancing / meetups / doordash / Uber driver (point being, meet more people, put yourself out there way more)
I can't understate how much a fitness program and a proper wardrobe can turn your life around. In college I learned how to dress myself, how to layer, how to buy shirts that fit, etc. and after college I lost a lot of weight. Hoo boy. I became an entirely different person. If I knew I looked this good under all my baby fat, I would have started dieting 10 years prior.
To all the young men out there in particular... live up to your potential, man. You're only going to be in your 20s once. You don't want to spend it all waddling around in cargo shorts with messy hair. Lose the weight, lift some barbells, eat more protein, buy a Seiko, iron your work shirt, layer your clothes, try a skincare routine, and look as good as you possibly can. You'll become more confident, and people love confidence, so you'll be even more liked.
To all the young men out there in particular... live up to your potential, man. You're only going to be in your 20s once. You don't want to spend it all waddling around in cargo shorts with messy hair. Lose the weight, lift some barbells, eat more protein, buy a Seiko, iron your work shirt, layer your clothes, try a skincare routine, and look as good as you possibly can. You'll become more confident, and people love confidence, so you'll be even more liked.
> if you are a gamer, immediately stop
Hard disagree there. Yes, gaming can be addicting, but that is also the case with basically all habits. If you easily get addicted to games, then I would suggest sticking to shorter single-player games.
I would add reading (fiction or non-programming books) and traveling to the list of things to spend more time and money on.
Hard disagree there. Yes, gaming can be addicting, but that is also the case with basically all habits. If you easily get addicted to games, then I would suggest sticking to shorter single-player games.
I would add reading (fiction or non-programming books) and traveling to the list of things to spend more time and money on.
Gaming can have positive and negative effects.
On the positive side, it can sometimes provide people with a needed social outlet, at least if it's an online social game.
It can also sometimes stimulate a mind that's depressed and lethargic, giving it a much needed jump-start so to speak which carries over into other productive tasks.
Conversely, it can get you addicted to and dependent on quick and easy dopamine hits, killing your ability to focus for extended durations needed for any kind of productive work. It can also cause mental fatigue that makes committing to or completing non-trivial tasks difficult or impossible.
Gamers have to be aware of both effects, and honest with themselves about which are occurring, and willing to change their behavior if they observe the negative ones.
And I /second reading and traveling as better uses of time and money.
On the positive side, it can sometimes provide people with a needed social outlet, at least if it's an online social game.
It can also sometimes stimulate a mind that's depressed and lethargic, giving it a much needed jump-start so to speak which carries over into other productive tasks.
Conversely, it can get you addicted to and dependent on quick and easy dopamine hits, killing your ability to focus for extended durations needed for any kind of productive work. It can also cause mental fatigue that makes committing to or completing non-trivial tasks difficult or impossible.
Gamers have to be aware of both effects, and honest with themselves about which are occurring, and willing to change their behavior if they observe the negative ones.
And I /second reading and traveling as better uses of time and money.
10 "Reality sucks Im going to escape it via gaming."
20 "Gaming is fun but it isn't improving my reality."
30 "Improving my reality doesn't feel fun at all."
40 GOTO 10
This cycle was all too real for me. But like you said it is neither positive or negative. It depends entirely on the individual.
20 "Gaming is fun but it isn't improving my reality."
30 "Improving my reality doesn't feel fun at all."
40 GOTO 10
This cycle was all too real for me. But like you said it is neither positive or negative. It depends entirely on the individual.
The hard branch back to the start is a perfect indicator of dysfunction.
I think the best way to sum up the very negative aspects of gaming is their fake progress. To use the 4 quadrant model, gaming usually belongs in the not-important quadrant with mostly not-urgent. But most game environments create their own 4 quadrant sub world. The issue then appears because those urgent and important and the various combinations thereof then mess with the real reward systems. The game world is temporarily real enough due to immersion so it becomes real. Your real reward systems light up and take action: More! Do this! So you do.
So the game gives your brain all sorts of these varied set ups where the quadrants apply and you have to prioritise. You make successful decisions and your reward systems kick in. The game says, "here is a problem that exists". You solve it and your brain, unable to really tell the difference says "ok we need to do more of that". So it allocates resources to improve. And you do.
But its all fake. Fake progress. Fake accomplishments. Because its all fake, the reward centers get messed up. You know its fake. But your brain isn't great at really knowing fully that its fake. Regardless, you're now spending resources solving the game instead of the real world. The rewards become twisted as weak form punishments. Every time you realise that in the real world you arent progressing as much as you could you are effectively punished again.
None of this says you cannot play games or that they are not helpful. But like all escapes, its important to not close the door back to reality. Otherwise they become prisons.
I think the best way to sum up the very negative aspects of gaming is their fake progress. To use the 4 quadrant model, gaming usually belongs in the not-important quadrant with mostly not-urgent. But most game environments create their own 4 quadrant sub world. The issue then appears because those urgent and important and the various combinations thereof then mess with the real reward systems. The game world is temporarily real enough due to immersion so it becomes real. Your real reward systems light up and take action: More! Do this! So you do.
So the game gives your brain all sorts of these varied set ups where the quadrants apply and you have to prioritise. You make successful decisions and your reward systems kick in. The game says, "here is a problem that exists". You solve it and your brain, unable to really tell the difference says "ok we need to do more of that". So it allocates resources to improve. And you do.
But its all fake. Fake progress. Fake accomplishments. Because its all fake, the reward centers get messed up. You know its fake. But your brain isn't great at really knowing fully that its fake. Regardless, you're now spending resources solving the game instead of the real world. The rewards become twisted as weak form punishments. Every time you realise that in the real world you arent progressing as much as you could you are effectively punished again.
None of this says you cannot play games or that they are not helpful. But like all escapes, its important to not close the door back to reality. Otherwise they become prisons.
The really pernicious part is after a while the constant and immediate reward cycles in games mess with the ability to focus on a real world tasks for extended periods of time and hence real world tasks no longer feel rewarding at all compared to gaming.
Nope. Reality sucks - then step forward and face it.
Exactly how I feel, been through the loop at least 5 times now.
I usually download new games on my phone whenever I'm feeling bored. If the game turns out to be too good and addicting, I unintsall it after playing for 2-3 hours.
For me games are often just a more interactive version of YouTube or social media. Something to mindless do to occupy time when I don’t feel like putting in any effort.
I’ve scaled back on that quite a bit and it ofc just got replaced with items I compared it to in the prior paragraph. I still play games sometimes though, mostly because it’s a good way to keep in touch with some of my siblings who scattered across the country.
I’ve scaled back on that quite a bit and it ofc just got replaced with items I compared it to in the prior paragraph. I still play games sometimes though, mostly because it’s a good way to keep in touch with some of my siblings who scattered across the country.
[deleted]
Yes; if you're not rich and/or happy, stay the fuck away from addictive shit like video games. Truly an industry that causes WAY more harm than good, by several orders of magnitude.
I’d like to slightly counter the enthusiastic responses to this comment.
First, I do think there’s value to much of what you’re saying.
With that said, if time spent writing code is becoming an escapist activity, and if one is escaping from sufficiently dark demons, consider speaking with a therapist as well.
I realize this will not apply to all readers, but the trouble with this advice starts if there is depression involved. “Just be more positive”, “Just stop doing the things that currently make you feel safe and a bit more ok”.
Until you address the root cause, it’s going to be difficult to implement these changes effectively.
And if you do, you might find a happy medium (I’m getting closer every day), where programming or gaming is just a thing I love (and continue to do), and not something I have to use to escape.
First, I do think there’s value to much of what you’re saying.
With that said, if time spent writing code is becoming an escapist activity, and if one is escaping from sufficiently dark demons, consider speaking with a therapist as well.
I realize this will not apply to all readers, but the trouble with this advice starts if there is depression involved. “Just be more positive”, “Just stop doing the things that currently make you feel safe and a bit more ok”.
Until you address the root cause, it’s going to be difficult to implement these changes effectively.
And if you do, you might find a happy medium (I’m getting closer every day), where programming or gaming is just a thing I love (and continue to do), and not something I have to use to escape.
Was going to say the same thing: Immediately stopping things you enjoy, find comforting and are presumably good at (or experienced with at least), and in addition to starting new things that require extreme willpower to do (e.g. workout routines, intense social engagements, new hobbies that are not current interests)... That sort of thinking has personally been disastrous for me, or at best a very iterative process with a lot of failure and insecurity build in to it. I would always advocate to start slow with things, build off routines, take the occasional leap...sure...you have to to make any significant change, but take some small wins and build off of those. I'd worry someone reading that advice might be inclined to do everything in the extremes (as indicated) and suffer a breakdown or merely cement themselves in thinking they've been defeated. Maybe years from now is actually the best time for you to make that change, or meet that someone. Or maybe you just need to give up screens one or two days ... a week?
One of the tricky things about this from my own perspective, after having stopped giving a shit about web dev and to a lesser extent programming, is how do you continue to give enough of a shit to actually do a job? It's almost all worthless trash advertising or pointless middlemen products. How do you rebuild after realizing that it's just not worth the intense energy it sometimes requires?
It isn't as easy as it sounds I know, but find a job you love. What passions do you have in life? Where can you work that will scratch at least a tiny part of that itch?
I had a friend who hatred coding again, but got a job doing we dev for a vegan charity and that was it, he was back in the room since animal welfare was a major passion of his.
Find what it is you love (or at least like) and a job that will give you at least a small portion of that.
I had a friend who hatred coding again, but got a job doing we dev for a vegan charity and that was it, he was back in the room since animal welfare was a major passion of his.
Find what it is you love (or at least like) and a job that will give you at least a small portion of that.
I like the advice. Thanks
There is a lot of toxicity here and I think this is a good example of part of the problem. We have been injecting pc tolerance everywhere with little to no focus on men. Why can't I wear feminine esk clothing like a thumb ring. Men are unable to express themselves with dress or emotionally without being considered unattractive..
OP did not say anything negative about dressing femininely. OP said "sincerely evaluate your style of dress".
The advice does play into classic masculine stereotypes though. Almost like a movie trope where the hopeless nerd finds out he really was a cool jock the entire time.
Throw away your nerdy shit, get ripped in the gym, learn martial arts and dress well.
All that’s fine if that’s what you want but I don’t think it’s particularly aspirational for everyone. Even if elements like regular exercise and broadened activities are pretty universal good advice.
It’s also of it’s time and reading this feels like a lot of the advice givers are quite a bit older. The generation in their early twenties have different social mores and aspirations.
And hard as it may be to learn even ripped dudes that are snappy dressers can be depressed and can feel stuck in life.
Throw away your nerdy shit, get ripped in the gym, learn martial arts and dress well.
All that’s fine if that’s what you want but I don’t think it’s particularly aspirational for everyone. Even if elements like regular exercise and broadened activities are pretty universal good advice.
It’s also of it’s time and reading this feels like a lot of the advice givers are quite a bit older. The generation in their early twenties have different social mores and aspirations.
And hard as it may be to learn even ripped dudes that are snappy dressers can be depressed and can feel stuck in life.
Agreed. I guess better advice in regards to clothing would be to find something that fits you and that you feel good in. Masculine, feminine or something between, looking into the mirror and seeing clothes that look good is sure to be a small ego boost and other people might also treat you better in some subtle ways (basically the halo effect).
As for exercise, not everyone needs to get "ripped", but some exercise is likely to benefit everyone - from better cardiovascular health, to just feeling like you have more energy, as well as getting to a more healthy weight. Admittedly, that's why I've been jogging 3km every day for the last month in addition to strength training, and while I felt horrible the first week, things are better now.
Some of the other advice ends up being a tad too drastic, though.
Stopping doing science/maths probably isn't good idea - maybe just slightly decrease the amount of time you spend on them instead?
The amount of time spent gaming should also be controlled, but quitting "cold turkey" could be harmful. For some people it's a way to cope with bad situations or socialize - take away that escapism and you'll be left dealing with all of the other bad aspects of life with no outlet.
Martial arts and joining social groups all seem like good idea, but for the more introverted folks it might actually make them feel worse. Maybe try going to a few meetups at first instead?
As for Tinder and social media - those might lead to you comparing yourself to others too much, which often isn't entirely healthy. Also, dating apps in general don't work for many guys due to societal factors.
As for exercise, not everyone needs to get "ripped", but some exercise is likely to benefit everyone - from better cardiovascular health, to just feeling like you have more energy, as well as getting to a more healthy weight. Admittedly, that's why I've been jogging 3km every day for the last month in addition to strength training, and while I felt horrible the first week, things are better now.
Some of the other advice ends up being a tad too drastic, though.
Stopping doing science/maths probably isn't good idea - maybe just slightly decrease the amount of time you spend on them instead?
The amount of time spent gaming should also be controlled, but quitting "cold turkey" could be harmful. For some people it's a way to cope with bad situations or socialize - take away that escapism and you'll be left dealing with all of the other bad aspects of life with no outlet.
Martial arts and joining social groups all seem like good idea, but for the more introverted folks it might actually make them feel worse. Maybe try going to a few meetups at first instead?
As for Tinder and social media - those might lead to you comparing yourself to others too much, which often isn't entirely healthy. Also, dating apps in general don't work for many guys due to societal factors.
In terms of exercise, the I would strongly argue that the best advice is to test and explore new hobbies until something is enjoyable enough that they want to continue with it just for the fun of it. Going to the gym if you have every minute of it is not going to improve your health, but doing something physically that one enjoy brings many benefits.
A big upside about hobbies, especially if one focus a lot on it, is that one is likely to meet others who is enthusiastic in the same thing.
A big upside about hobbies, especially if one focus a lot on it, is that one is likely to meet others who is enthusiastic in the same thing.
OP is suggesting a starting place for people who feel unmoored. It's an anecdote giving him a formula to try on for size.
The kind of person who has strong feelings about their sense of style (for example dressing more feminine) already has achieved a kind of center or "normal" for their personality that the person who posted this lacks.
The kind of person who has strong feelings about their sense of style (for example dressing more feminine) already has achieved a kind of center or "normal" for their personality that the person who posted this lacks.
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> feminine-milquetoast
Doesn't seem negative to you?
And what's exactly dressing "femininely" or "masculinely"? That's rubbish.
Doesn't seem negative to you?
And what's exactly dressing "femininely" or "masculinely"? That's rubbish.
The funny part is neither GP nor the other green accounts invested in defending the point don’t actually expand on what that means. Come on man, if you’re going say something like that under the guise of advice it’s probably best to spell it out.
> sincerely evaluate your style of dress (do you give off a feminine-milquetoast or masculine vibe) visit Reddit, etc for ideas
Are you making a value judgment on which style is right and wrong?
Are you making a value judgment on which style is right and wrong?
This kind of subjectivist ideology in everything is what makes young men depressed in the first place. Yes, there is a way to dress that will improve your life, and there is a way to dress that won't, and it is not subjective within a culture.
Pretending that anyone can just do anything and be anything, including undesirable, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled, is just a cope.
Pretending that anyone can just do anything and be anything, including undesirable, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled, is just a cope.
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This is it, enough said.
You must learn to love yourself. It's a difficult road but it's arguably the most important one you'll ever take.
You must learn to love yourself. It's a difficult road but it's arguably the most important one you'll ever take.
Good advice.
People can definitely fall into the intellectual pit. They then abuse intellectual pursuits to distance themselves from reality. Fake challenges, fake problems, fake solutions, fake progress. If they later reconnect with reality, they discover they can use their intellect and physicality to solve real problems for real people. Along the way they connect to those real people and the very much broader reality in general. Often resulting in interesting stories to tell as well.
None of this is actually anti-intellectual or anti-programming.
People can definitely fall into the intellectual pit. They then abuse intellectual pursuits to distance themselves from reality. Fake challenges, fake problems, fake solutions, fake progress. If they later reconnect with reality, they discover they can use their intellect and physicality to solve real problems for real people. Along the way they connect to those real people and the very much broader reality in general. Often resulting in interesting stories to tell as well.
None of this is actually anti-intellectual or anti-programming.
I've been where you are more than once, for more than one reason. I've survived those trials, so far. I'm 61 years old now, so it's doable.
You've survived, so far, too. We have that in common. We might have been dead by now, but we're not. Every new day is a bonus life for us, now. We just have to decide what to do with it.
We'll probably make some wrong choices, and our screwups will be painful. Every mistake can be made better with some effort, though. We can learn from it. We can address the damage it does.
Every mistake except one: ending your life is final. It's the one mistake you can't fix up afterward. So be very sure you've looked thoroughly at all the other options before picking that one.
Your issues are not superfluous. They are essential and unavoidable. Every human being has the problem of figuring out how to live a good and worthwhile life. None of us is guaranteed to get it right. There are a lot of ways to get it wrong, and there are a lot of things outside our control that work against us.
But there's good news. We also have some things going for us. We're intelligent. We can learn. There are learnable skills that are applicable to these problems. There are worthwhile things that are actually under our control.
We aren't born knowing how to be happy. We're born knowing how to recognize pleasure, but happiness and pleasure are not the same thing. Pleasure is an ephemeral experience that comes and goes. We can chase it, but it remains ephemeral, and chasing it turns out not to be wise or rewarding in the long run.
Happiness is different. It's something that you can learn how to build and refine. It's hard work, but you can get better at it with practice.
Some other commenters have suggested seeing a therapist. That's a good idea. Find a good one. Good therapists are teachers. They teach you about what tools and skills exist to help you build a happy and worthwhile life, and help you get started learning how to use them.
Therapists are not mechanics. They can't fix you. They can tell you about the tools, teach you the basics of using them, and sometimes offer some training wheels to get you started, but in the end you have to do the work yourself.
We get better at what we practice. That goes for mental as well as physical skills. You already know this: you learned programming and mathematics.
You get better at what you do over and over--so pay attention to what you do. Pay attention to what helps you and what hurts you. Learn to distinguish them. Focus your attention on what helps you.
Training our attention is tricky. Any thought or feeling we give attention to gets stronger. So supressing bad thoughts is not a winning strategy. Suppression is just another kind of attention. It makes the suppressed thoughts stronger.
It's more effective to find constructive thoughts and feelings and direct your attention toward them. You'll have to do it over and over, because our attention is fickle. It jumps here and there and it likes to revisit anything it's visited a lot lately, and it's attracted to every shiny new thing. But we get better at what we repeat, so put your attention on constructive things, and then, when it wanders, put it back on constructive things again, over and over. Be patient. You'll get better at it with practice.
Learn to recognize what you truly find valuable and seek that. Learn to recognize what's under your control and what isn't. Put your attention and effort into valuable things that are under your control, and practice leaving the rest alone.
For example, you can't control whether this person or that person finds you attractive; they do or they don't.
When you use Tinder, you're hoping that someone will find you appealing and that something pleasant will come of it. That's a low-percentage strategy. You're looking for value in things outside your control, and the value you're looking for is fleeting: pleasure. You're better off looking for happiness instead of pleasure, and better off looking for it in things that you can deliberately cultivate than in things outside your control.
So what's something you can control? You can control whether you are working to advance some goal that you find valuable. So focus on that. What about that connection to another person? Other people care about things that they find valuable. Some of them will value some of the things that you do.
Some of them will offer to help you in your goals, because they share them. Accept their help with gratitude. Help them when you find their goals worthy. You'll make friends. Some of them will find you attractive, in part because of your shared values. Some will turn into something more than friends. Some will become ties that you cultivate and that reward you for years to come.
You won't control exactly which people that will be or when it will happen, but if you focus on what you truly value and what's up to you, and if you make yourself available to social ties that arise from what you truly value, it'll happen. We're social animals. We work as a species because we're inclined to help one another with shared goals.
When it does happen, the ties you form will be based on things you truly value. That will be better and longer lasting than any ephemeral moment of pleasure that random chance grants you.
I've lived through moments like the one you're describing. If I survived it, you can too. The best things in my life have come after my nights in the abyss. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to you.
You've survived, so far, too. We have that in common. We might have been dead by now, but we're not. Every new day is a bonus life for us, now. We just have to decide what to do with it.
We'll probably make some wrong choices, and our screwups will be painful. Every mistake can be made better with some effort, though. We can learn from it. We can address the damage it does.
Every mistake except one: ending your life is final. It's the one mistake you can't fix up afterward. So be very sure you've looked thoroughly at all the other options before picking that one.
Your issues are not superfluous. They are essential and unavoidable. Every human being has the problem of figuring out how to live a good and worthwhile life. None of us is guaranteed to get it right. There are a lot of ways to get it wrong, and there are a lot of things outside our control that work against us.
But there's good news. We also have some things going for us. We're intelligent. We can learn. There are learnable skills that are applicable to these problems. There are worthwhile things that are actually under our control.
We aren't born knowing how to be happy. We're born knowing how to recognize pleasure, but happiness and pleasure are not the same thing. Pleasure is an ephemeral experience that comes and goes. We can chase it, but it remains ephemeral, and chasing it turns out not to be wise or rewarding in the long run.
Happiness is different. It's something that you can learn how to build and refine. It's hard work, but you can get better at it with practice.
Some other commenters have suggested seeing a therapist. That's a good idea. Find a good one. Good therapists are teachers. They teach you about what tools and skills exist to help you build a happy and worthwhile life, and help you get started learning how to use them.
Therapists are not mechanics. They can't fix you. They can tell you about the tools, teach you the basics of using them, and sometimes offer some training wheels to get you started, but in the end you have to do the work yourself.
We get better at what we practice. That goes for mental as well as physical skills. You already know this: you learned programming and mathematics.
You get better at what you do over and over--so pay attention to what you do. Pay attention to what helps you and what hurts you. Learn to distinguish them. Focus your attention on what helps you.
Training our attention is tricky. Any thought or feeling we give attention to gets stronger. So supressing bad thoughts is not a winning strategy. Suppression is just another kind of attention. It makes the suppressed thoughts stronger.
It's more effective to find constructive thoughts and feelings and direct your attention toward them. You'll have to do it over and over, because our attention is fickle. It jumps here and there and it likes to revisit anything it's visited a lot lately, and it's attracted to every shiny new thing. But we get better at what we repeat, so put your attention on constructive things, and then, when it wanders, put it back on constructive things again, over and over. Be patient. You'll get better at it with practice.
Learn to recognize what you truly find valuable and seek that. Learn to recognize what's under your control and what isn't. Put your attention and effort into valuable things that are under your control, and practice leaving the rest alone.
For example, you can't control whether this person or that person finds you attractive; they do or they don't.
When you use Tinder, you're hoping that someone will find you appealing and that something pleasant will come of it. That's a low-percentage strategy. You're looking for value in things outside your control, and the value you're looking for is fleeting: pleasure. You're better off looking for happiness instead of pleasure, and better off looking for it in things that you can deliberately cultivate than in things outside your control.
So what's something you can control? You can control whether you are working to advance some goal that you find valuable. So focus on that. What about that connection to another person? Other people care about things that they find valuable. Some of them will value some of the things that you do.
Some of them will offer to help you in your goals, because they share them. Accept their help with gratitude. Help them when you find their goals worthy. You'll make friends. Some of them will find you attractive, in part because of your shared values. Some will turn into something more than friends. Some will become ties that you cultivate and that reward you for years to come.
You won't control exactly which people that will be or when it will happen, but if you focus on what you truly value and what's up to you, and if you make yourself available to social ties that arise from what you truly value, it'll happen. We're social animals. We work as a species because we're inclined to help one another with shared goals.
When it does happen, the ties you form will be based on things you truly value. That will be better and longer lasting than any ephemeral moment of pleasure that random chance grants you.
I've lived through moments like the one you're describing. If I survived it, you can too. The best things in my life have come after my nights in the abyss. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to you.
It's literally a therapist's job to help you figure this out, I don't want to undermine this.
Please speak to a professional, you are not alone.
In the meantime, here are some of my own "no bullshit mantras" I found comforting in similar times, mostly from Zen Bhuddism :
* You are not supposed to be anywhere. Your only real obligation is to be you, now.
* There is no "better" version of you now. There is no other way to be you now. In fact, there is no other way to be, but to be what you are.
* What you are is beautiful, no matter who you are. I don't mean the Aguilera song, I mean it's literally a miracle that you're here now.
* Everything is as it is. There's no point in feeling guilty for things being the way they are, rather than the way you or someone else would have them. In a world where time only flows one way, every "ought" is an illusion.
If you like these ideas, I highly recommend meditation, such ideas are much easier to contemplate with a calm mind. I hear Alan Watts has good talks about this available on Youtube. Mindfulness meditation has also been associated with improvements in mental health (you can find many studies about this on Google Scholar).
Please speak to a professional, you are not alone.
In the meantime, here are some of my own "no bullshit mantras" I found comforting in similar times, mostly from Zen Bhuddism :
* You are not supposed to be anywhere. Your only real obligation is to be you, now.
* There is no "better" version of you now. There is no other way to be you now. In fact, there is no other way to be, but to be what you are.
* What you are is beautiful, no matter who you are. I don't mean the Aguilera song, I mean it's literally a miracle that you're here now.
* Everything is as it is. There's no point in feeling guilty for things being the way they are, rather than the way you or someone else would have them. In a world where time only flows one way, every "ought" is an illusion.
If you like these ideas, I highly recommend meditation, such ideas are much easier to contemplate with a calm mind. I hear Alan Watts has good talks about this available on Youtube. Mindfulness meditation has also been associated with improvements in mental health (you can find many studies about this on Google Scholar).
This is such a horrible and dangerous ideology. To tell someone stuck in a rut that the rut is perfect and just where they need to be? I couldn't think of a more harmful message. OP has turned himself into a person he doesn't want to be. The solution is to change himself, not to accept that being alone and empty and unattractive is actually normal and beautiful. That's the kind of thing you say to people with no hope to make them feel better, not something you give as advice to a healthy young man who has all the potential in the world to come out of his shell.
To OP and anyone in his situation, please do not get sucked into this thought pattern. It's very easy to convince yourself that simply not changing anything is the answer; not changing is easy and wouldn't it be great if I could take the soma pill and be content with my circumstances as they are? You know this is bullshit, so don't allow yourself to do it.
To OP and anyone in his situation, please do not get sucked into this thought pattern. It's very easy to convince yourself that simply not changing anything is the answer; not changing is easy and wouldn't it be great if I could take the soma pill and be content with my circumstances as they are? You know this is bullshit, so don't allow yourself to do it.
You think the OP has never heard this before? This is the attitude that creates the guilt that weighs people down in the first place.
You, like most people, are talking about the future. I'm sure you're about the 1000th person telling this person to turn their life around. But this future is a projection, it's imaginary, whereas the pain is very real in the present moment. So start with the present.
You, like most people, are talking about the future. I'm sure you're about the 1000th person telling this person to turn their life around. But this future is a projection, it's imaginary, whereas the pain is very real in the present moment. So start with the present.
Yet for him to change himself for the good, he at least has to come to terms with what he is, without so much dependence on how others see him.
Some parts of what make up the rut are seemingly necessary parts of life. You can at least accept and build from them.
Some parts of what make up the rut are seemingly necessary parts of life. You can at least accept and build from them.
34 & living at home = not d best :P but I liked this comment a lot & really like Zen Buddhism (& mediration, for me, a must.)
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Zen-Mind.pdf
You’re still suuper young & have much life yet to enjoy. Get through this funk / these strange times & do what you can to keep your head up :)
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Zen-Mind.pdf
You’re still suuper young & have much life yet to enjoy. Get through this funk / these strange times & do what you can to keep your head up :)
This stuff works only when you fully understand it; that means when you are over 40 and you don't need advice because you have some life experience. It's a catch 22.
Could be. I hope the intent is still encouraging!
> There is no "better" version of you now.
I mean, if someone is fat and unhealthy, then sure is a better version of them. If someone has wishes, goals and plans for themselves, then there is a better version of them, when they achieved everything they wanted.
If it's not, then why try to improve yourself? If you are the best you ever were, then why try to reach for a higher purpose?
As an eastern European, this kind of saccharine mantras feel like self defeating, toxic positivity, ambitionless kind of things. The western people do like them, for some reason.
I mean, if someone is fat and unhealthy, then sure is a better version of them. If someone has wishes, goals and plans for themselves, then there is a better version of them, when they achieved everything they wanted.
If it's not, then why try to improve yourself? If you are the best you ever were, then why try to reach for a higher purpose?
As an eastern European, this kind of saccharine mantras feel like self defeating, toxic positivity, ambitionless kind of things. The western people do like them, for some reason.
Not the person you're replying to, but I wanted to offer a perspective that might bridge what you see as a gap in philosophies.
The "future you", the one that is healthier (i.e. literally from a medical perspective, not just perception), can only exist if you make choices today that enable progress towards that future state. In other words, the current you, the unhealthy you, already contains the seed of what is necessary to become the future you. Perhaps all you need is a conducive environment, so you can blossom; a seed requires water and fertile soil, but the seed is the one doing the work. You might need to find some water (most metaphorically, but sometimes literally: lots of people are just dehydrated and it contributes to low energy or lethargy), or a different soil to plant yourself in (different city, different job, different friends, etc.), but it is you who does the work to allow yourself to germinate, to bloom.
The point of thinking like this, is to avoid disassociating the future you, to avoid thinking of that person as somehow different from or "other-than" your current you. People already get discouraged enough by looking at the glossy and fake Instagram influencers around them; what a tragedy it would be to let your present self get discouraged by your future self!
You are already that person. You are already worthy.
The "future you", the one that is healthier (i.e. literally from a medical perspective, not just perception), can only exist if you make choices today that enable progress towards that future state. In other words, the current you, the unhealthy you, already contains the seed of what is necessary to become the future you. Perhaps all you need is a conducive environment, so you can blossom; a seed requires water and fertile soil, but the seed is the one doing the work. You might need to find some water (most metaphorically, but sometimes literally: lots of people are just dehydrated and it contributes to low energy or lethargy), or a different soil to plant yourself in (different city, different job, different friends, etc.), but it is you who does the work to allow yourself to germinate, to bloom.
The point of thinking like this, is to avoid disassociating the future you, to avoid thinking of that person as somehow different from or "other-than" your current you. People already get discouraged enough by looking at the glossy and fake Instagram influencers around them; what a tragedy it would be to let your present self get discouraged by your future self!
You are already that person. You are already worthy.
The other commenter takes this somewhere interesting, but to me the main point is to not get trapped by guilt. That's why I say "you now" and not just "you". I'm not implying that you're the best you ever were, only that guilt (or pride) does nothing to change what you are in the present.
In other words, it's okay to just be you. In fact, the world is only better for it if you can live without guilt. Achievement and ambition are much less real to me.
In other words, it's okay to just be you. In fact, the world is only better for it if you can live without guilt. Achievement and ambition are much less real to me.
I'm 25 and struggling with a lot of the same feelings. These are some things that I've done that have helped to keep me away from the edge of the cliff.
Drop mainstream social media and online dating completely. If you haven't been socially focused for a decade, comparing yourself to people who have is going to destroy you inside. The same goes for porn. Stick to drawings, and avoid anything that has a romantic plot. Focusing on an idealized version of what you're missing out on is only going to hurt you right now.
Find a public area where there are a lot of people out with no specific purpose, like a park. Go out and talk to strangers. This will probably feel uncomfortable at first, but you will get used to it. Old men are typically the easiest people to start a conversation with. They're less likely to feel threatened by you and more likely to be lonely. You can start off with a basic personal question like "do you have any hobbies?" If they seem irritated or uncomfortable, just thank them for their time and move on to the next person. If you set any goals for your outings, make them ones you can reasonably guarantee. Think "I'm going to talk to two strangers today," not "I'm going to make a friend today."
If there are any local group activities that you're even remotely interested in, give them a shot. Being part of a like-minded group feels fantastic and offers a lot of opportunity for building relationships.
Drop mainstream social media and online dating completely. If you haven't been socially focused for a decade, comparing yourself to people who have is going to destroy you inside. The same goes for porn. Stick to drawings, and avoid anything that has a romantic plot. Focusing on an idealized version of what you're missing out on is only going to hurt you right now.
Find a public area where there are a lot of people out with no specific purpose, like a park. Go out and talk to strangers. This will probably feel uncomfortable at first, but you will get used to it. Old men are typically the easiest people to start a conversation with. They're less likely to feel threatened by you and more likely to be lonely. You can start off with a basic personal question like "do you have any hobbies?" If they seem irritated or uncomfortable, just thank them for their time and move on to the next person. If you set any goals for your outings, make them ones you can reasonably guarantee. Think "I'm going to talk to two strangers today," not "I'm going to make a friend today."
If there are any local group activities that you're even remotely interested in, give them a shot. Being part of a like-minded group feels fantastic and offers a lot of opportunity for building relationships.
Talking to strangers is really good advice and a great way to improve social skills but also happiness. Talking to old men is also great advice! I have met some really interesting old men that I ended up really enjoying talking to even though I would never have thought I would.
With strangers you have a lot less risk because if you do/say something embarrassing it's easier to forget than if you do that with a coworker. People often tend to be nicer to strangers than they are their friends and family. Strangers will cut you a lot of slack.
You may also find that as you get to know "strangers" you may find meaningful and fulfilling relationships. I wouldn't recommend it with an outcome like this in mind because that's unlikely, but I know a person who met a long-term girlfriend by striking up a polite conversation with her mother on a bus. A similar thing also happened to a friend of mine with a stranger who had a sister that he later was introduced to.
Definitely get out to a park or a bar or something and talk to a few strangers.
With strangers you have a lot less risk because if you do/say something embarrassing it's easier to forget than if you do that with a coworker. People often tend to be nicer to strangers than they are their friends and family. Strangers will cut you a lot of slack.
You may also find that as you get to know "strangers" you may find meaningful and fulfilling relationships. I wouldn't recommend it with an outcome like this in mind because that's unlikely, but I know a person who met a long-term girlfriend by striking up a polite conversation with her mother on a bus. A similar thing also happened to a friend of mine with a stranger who had a sister that he later was introduced to.
Definitely get out to a park or a bar or something and talk to a few strangers.
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There's enough other advice here that I just want to focus on one area on the safe assumption you're a straight male: Tinder is pretty toxic for men. Now that things are opening up you should get out and meet people in person. For romance sure, but friends or even acquaintances as well. Tunnel vision caused by desperation doesn't help either. Relax and branch out. Fail with people and try again with others. And again, Tinder is toxic for the majority of males, use it if you like, hell get good at it but understand that your match count and profile are not you and those chat based interactions are empty and fleeting.
And don't kill yourself. At 23 the world is your god damned oyster even if it doesn't look like it. Your back probably hasn't even gotten achey yet.
And don't kill yourself. At 23 the world is your god damned oyster even if it doesn't look like it. Your back probably hasn't even gotten achey yet.
I’m going to argue that Tinder just highlights your issues. If you don’t dress well, don’t work out and aren’t confident enough to approach any woman, you’ll probably suck at real-life dating too.
Imho this is not true at all. The underlying assumption in your argument is that Tinder provides an accurate assessment of your issues, which is not true. Tinder dating success reflects a heavily skewed dating market that focuses on shallow metrics, such as how photogenic you are.
There was a study done by one of the large dating sites that showed 20% of male profiles get 80% of the matches.
Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life. On dating apps a carefully curated, often fake persona can do well.
Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all. Ive had much more luck meeting women in the workplace or school etc.
There was a study done by one of the large dating sites that showed 20% of male profiles get 80% of the matches.
Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life. On dating apps a carefully curated, often fake persona can do well.
Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all. Ive had much more luck meeting women in the workplace or school etc.
And not getting matches on tinder doesn't necessarily mean you aren't photogenic. When I used it I didn't get many matches either. Later I went on a trip and swiped through Tinder out of boredom, I suddenly got a lot of matches. Not very helpful because I went back home the next day. I think it's important to remember that Tinder varies the "exposure" you get by a lot, for seemingly arbitrary reasons.
@OP Easier said than done, but try not to make too much out of this. I think the recommendation for doing some activities with others is a good idea.
@OP Easier said than done, but try not to make too much out of this. I think the recommendation for doing some activities with others is a good idea.
> There was a study done by one of the large dating sites that showed 20% of male profiles get 80% of the matches
> Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life.
I'd argue that it's exactly the same in real life.
> Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all.
Let's not forget that Tinder isn't about meeting a partner.
> Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life.
I'd argue that it's exactly the same in real life.
> Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all.
Let's not forget that Tinder isn't about meeting a partner.
1) If you are having serious intentions of self-harm, seek professional help. No other advice you read here (mine included) matters until you've done that.
2) Forget Tinder, and other social media too. It's just something to make you feel bad looking at the rest of the world's highlight reel.
3) You're not yet 23. You haven't failed at life, because—frankly—you haven't had a chance to live any of it yet.
4) Get off screens and go outside. Go for a walk near trees in the sun.
5) If you've got friends, ask to spend time with them. Doesn't matter what activity.
6) If you're short on friends, start making some new ones through shared activities. Sports, hobby classes, fellow dog owners at the dog park, whatever works best for you.
7) Get your sleep, diet, and exercise in order. These are foundational to feeling good and doing well at anything else over the long term. Ignore them at your peril.
2) Forget Tinder, and other social media too. It's just something to make you feel bad looking at the rest of the world's highlight reel.
3) You're not yet 23. You haven't failed at life, because—frankly—you haven't had a chance to live any of it yet.
4) Get off screens and go outside. Go for a walk near trees in the sun.
5) If you've got friends, ask to spend time with them. Doesn't matter what activity.
6) If you're short on friends, start making some new ones through shared activities. Sports, hobby classes, fellow dog owners at the dog park, whatever works best for you.
7) Get your sleep, diet, and exercise in order. These are foundational to feeling good and doing well at anything else over the long term. Ignore them at your peril.
Honestly, yours is the only comment that should be allowed in this entire thread
What you see on Tinder is the absolute best presentation of people's lives. Every single one of those people has problems in life that they are not showing in that forum. You cannot judge your entire, flawed life by comparing it to only the best portions of other people's lives.
You are 23 and unmarried, presumably without chilren. That is very young and very free. That doesn't mean you don't have real problems, but it means you have lots of options to change. You can steer your life in any direction you want at this point.
If you're not homeless or incarcerated, you're definitely not a "complete failure in life."
You probably aren't lost, just listless. Satisfaction in life comes from picking a direction and pursuing it, whether it is a career, a family, an art, or something else. It can be hard to figure out what that is, because the options are overwhelming.
I'd recommend putting your efforts towards figuring out what you want to do with your life, and then start down that path. Once you're making some progress and are in a better mental state, then tackle the online dating game (or maybe you'll happen to find someone along the way).
You are 23 and unmarried, presumably without chilren. That is very young and very free. That doesn't mean you don't have real problems, but it means you have lots of options to change. You can steer your life in any direction you want at this point.
If you're not homeless or incarcerated, you're definitely not a "complete failure in life."
You probably aren't lost, just listless. Satisfaction in life comes from picking a direction and pursuing it, whether it is a career, a family, an art, or something else. It can be hard to figure out what that is, because the options are overwhelming.
I'd recommend putting your efforts towards figuring out what you want to do with your life, and then start down that path. Once you're making some progress and are in a better mental state, then tackle the online dating game (or maybe you'll happen to find someone along the way).
Regarding tinder being the absolute best presentation of these people: let this lesson sink into you, and take note whenever you see the tiniest evidence of it. You already understand this on some level, because you’ve seen profiles where you click through the pictures and say to yourself “hot, hot, hot, hot, WHOAH you accidentally left a real pic in there”. Now keep in mind that this carefully-curated-to-the-point-of-lying info doesn’t just apply to their looks. It’s their profession, their hobbies, how happy they appear to be, the tone of voice they write in, etc. it’s all handcrafted marketing.
I’ve met a lot of women from tinder and I can’t decide if this is a sad fact or encouraging to someone who doesn’t feel “good enough”, but you really can count on the profile to be a complete fiction in most cases. This is really useful though, if you can stop being impressed by the polished hotties and find the ones who are gems under the surface.
Either that or ditch tinder altogether. I don’t use it anymore but I still think it’s really useful as a tool if your only goal is finding someone to have a conversation with over a drink, and the expectation that you will NOT be making some kind of “love connection” with this person but it will be a fun experience anyway. Once you get there, you magically transform from a sweaty nervous loser on a “first date” to an actual person that the woman you’re having a drink with actually has a chance of finding interesting and charming. That’s the best tinder advice I can give and I really wish someone had given it to me when I was 23.
I’ve met a lot of women from tinder and I can’t decide if this is a sad fact or encouraging to someone who doesn’t feel “good enough”, but you really can count on the profile to be a complete fiction in most cases. This is really useful though, if you can stop being impressed by the polished hotties and find the ones who are gems under the surface.
Either that or ditch tinder altogether. I don’t use it anymore but I still think it’s really useful as a tool if your only goal is finding someone to have a conversation with over a drink, and the expectation that you will NOT be making some kind of “love connection” with this person but it will be a fun experience anyway. Once you get there, you magically transform from a sweaty nervous loser on a “first date” to an actual person that the woman you’re having a drink with actually has a chance of finding interesting and charming. That’s the best tinder advice I can give and I really wish someone had given it to me when I was 23.
I turned my loser life around at 27. I actually had spent years trying to optimize it, seeking success and happiness, but I was stuck.
What was the big move? Little did I know it back then, but the solution has many parallels with non-convex optimization: I got the heck out of the local minimum I was stuck in life - moved continents, changed careers, changed the people in my life, changed the culture around me.
Concretely, I went to grad school abroad and settled there. It took adjusting and lots of work, but I now make multiples of my previous salary, dated beautiful women I never would have in my local culture and had a choice of awesome people to become my close friends.
You might be stuck in a local minimum too - starting anew can be good for you if you manage to do it. Maybe you won't even need to go to a new continent, but the lesson is, make big changes!
What was the big move? Little did I know it back then, but the solution has many parallels with non-convex optimization: I got the heck out of the local minimum I was stuck in life - moved continents, changed careers, changed the people in my life, changed the culture around me.
Concretely, I went to grad school abroad and settled there. It took adjusting and lots of work, but I now make multiples of my previous salary, dated beautiful women I never would have in my local culture and had a choice of awesome people to become my close friends.
You might be stuck in a local minimum too - starting anew can be good for you if you manage to do it. Maybe you won't even need to go to a new continent, but the lesson is, make big changes!
This is good advice and so is the more general idea behind it: if you aren't enjoying your current situation, find a new one.
If you found yourself at a house party and you found a particular room annoying, depressing, boring, etc, you'd go find a different room. Change the scenery.
Trying something new like moving to a new city or country is certainly an option. But another surprisingly low effort way to achieve something similar is to pick up a new hobby, start working out and eating right, etc.
I personally found myself in a terrible rutt in my mid twenties. I couldn't imagine a future where things were better.
I decided to get into shape, which gave me a huge boost in confidence and outlook. I decided to read some books on topics I was always curious about and realized how little I knew about the world around me. I really tried to broaden my perspective and at the same time, develop an idea for who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do with life.
But it all starts with deciding to make that change.
There's so much out there, and OP's current situation is an infinitely small slice of what life has to offer.
If you found yourself at a house party and you found a particular room annoying, depressing, boring, etc, you'd go find a different room. Change the scenery.
Trying something new like moving to a new city or country is certainly an option. But another surprisingly low effort way to achieve something similar is to pick up a new hobby, start working out and eating right, etc.
I personally found myself in a terrible rutt in my mid twenties. I couldn't imagine a future where things were better.
I decided to get into shape, which gave me a huge boost in confidence and outlook. I decided to read some books on topics I was always curious about and realized how little I knew about the world around me. I really tried to broaden my perspective and at the same time, develop an idea for who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do with life.
But it all starts with deciding to make that change.
There's so much out there, and OP's current situation is an infinitely small slice of what life has to offer.
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From Robert Anton Wilson:
“ under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being”
...you get a little older, and you realize everyone’s struggling in their own unique way, and trying to hide it. Social media distorts things even more. No one is living that perfect life you think they are. No one. Not a single one.
I worked for Facebook for a while and the only social media account I have left is Facebook, and only to keep in touch with my friends from Facebook. I deleted Instagram, I never used Tiktok or WhatsApp, I met my wife in real life.
...you get a little older, and you realize everyone’s struggling in their own unique way, and trying to hide it. Social media distorts things even more. No one is living that perfect life you think they are. No one. Not a single one.
I worked for Facebook for a while and the only social media account I have left is Facebook, and only to keep in touch with my friends from Facebook. I deleted Instagram, I never used Tiktok or WhatsApp, I met my wife in real life.
If you are goal-oriented and don't already work out regularly or go to the gym, I would highly recommend it. The physical challenge really requires focus and can clear your head and your body is hardwired to find exercising pleasurable. As a goal-oriented activity, it can be easy to quantitatively track your progress, and the physicality means you can't grind at it everyday - you need rest days. Plus, you'll hopefully feel healthier and get self-confidence from looking better too. I'd recommend starting with simple weight training - adjustable dumbbells are easy to use at home and can work out your arms, abs and legs with simple arm lifts, squats, etc. Or, try cardio - try getting your mile time down, and aim for 5k events.
I honestly think this is a strong biological cheat around depression that is a great jumping off point for many people.
I honestly think this is a strong biological cheat around depression that is a great jumping off point for many people.
Know any good apps to gamify weight training? Strava really worked for me for running, now I'd like to replicate the experience with strength training.
Try the app Strong or get an Apple Watch and start tracking your strength workouts there (closing the rings is so satisfying - seems silly at first but it really works).
not really, but maybe have a have thonk about doing something for the hell of it, because it's fun or whatever. Just experiment and have a play and see if you can do something physical that's going to intrinsically motivate you (doesn't have to be weight training specifically, although you will most likely do it at some point or another to improve at whatever other physical activity will intrinsically motivate you).
Not everything in life needs to be gamified and you can make an "app" to track gym/life progress yourself with just excell/google sheets to track progressive overload/your measures and your phone to see visual changes in your body.
Not everything in life needs to be gamified and you can make an "app" to track gym/life progress yourself with just excell/google sheets to track progressive overload/your measures and your phone to see visual changes in your body.
My life made no sense and felt like an endless pointless drift until I started teaching, first as a volunteer, and then later getting underpaid at a software company whose mission I believe in. Don't take your STEM abilities for granted, theyre less common then we usually think even when were not at the top of our field. You represent the future of humanity and it needs your help, even (especially) if its thankless work. Andre Tarkovsky said that he thought the point of existence was the battle between good and evil that takes place in the heart of every conscious being. I don't know if thats true but its brought me piece a lot as a frustrated depressed person. Also getting laid isnt that big of a deal, but staying open for love when it comes is. Kudos to you for getting on to one of those dating apps at all, theyre brutal but Ive seen them work for people long term who are probably a lot worse off than you. This kind of post is inspiring, thank you for being brave and putting yourself out there.
Also the best life direction advice Ive ever encountered is in the first chapter of Liu Cixin's Ball Lightning novel. I seriously wish Id encountered that book when I was in my 20's.
First, thank you for sharing how you're feeling - in a lot of ways, this is one of the hardest steps to take, because it acknowledges a reality that one might prefer not to acknowledge, and I respect the hell out of you for being willing to take this step.
Second, the first and best piece of advice I can give is: find and talk to a therapist (assuming you haven't already). It was probably the best decision I made when I was in a similar place to the one you've described, and the perspective shift I internalized as a result of those sessions has continued to benefit me in the subsequent years, in good times and bad.
Third, I wholeheartedly echo what many other commenters have said RE: Tinder and social media more generally - they're not going to help you get through this and in fact are probably making things worse, as you've already observed. These sites won't do anything more than reflect back to you what you're already feeling, for good or ill.
Beyond that, into some "squishier" observations and suggestions -
- The problems you describe are ones that I've only come to appreciate the significance of as I've aged; they would have sounded superfluous or insignificant to me as a teenager, maybe, but I know better now. You're right to take your feelings seriously!
- Rather a shot in the dark here, but: is there something you've wanted out of your own life, or some part of who you feel you might be, that you've ignored or suppressed or compartmentalized away because you think it's "not who you are" or something like that?
- You are absolutely right to feel that you are not alone in dealing with these issues!
- There is no "normal," and there's nothing and nobody that you are "supposed to be." This is not to say that our culture and society has not presented you with images of a particular set of ideals for literally your entire life, to the point where just figuring out what to start questioning is a years-long project - but it's true all the same.
- This, too, shall pass.
Second, the first and best piece of advice I can give is: find and talk to a therapist (assuming you haven't already). It was probably the best decision I made when I was in a similar place to the one you've described, and the perspective shift I internalized as a result of those sessions has continued to benefit me in the subsequent years, in good times and bad.
Third, I wholeheartedly echo what many other commenters have said RE: Tinder and social media more generally - they're not going to help you get through this and in fact are probably making things worse, as you've already observed. These sites won't do anything more than reflect back to you what you're already feeling, for good or ill.
Beyond that, into some "squishier" observations and suggestions -
- The problems you describe are ones that I've only come to appreciate the significance of as I've aged; they would have sounded superfluous or insignificant to me as a teenager, maybe, but I know better now. You're right to take your feelings seriously!
- Rather a shot in the dark here, but: is there something you've wanted out of your own life, or some part of who you feel you might be, that you've ignored or suppressed or compartmentalized away because you think it's "not who you are" or something like that?
- You are absolutely right to feel that you are not alone in dealing with these issues!
- There is no "normal," and there's nothing and nobody that you are "supposed to be." This is not to say that our culture and society has not presented you with images of a particular set of ideals for literally your entire life, to the point where just figuring out what to start questioning is a years-long project - but it's true all the same.
- This, too, shall pass.
Tinder is like Instagram, everyone is incentivized to fake or exaggerate how nice their life is.
Honestly, the best remedy is find new hobbies. Some people mentioned sports/martial arts and religion/spiritualism, those are all fine options, and there are many more: cooking, gardening, biking, music classes, adopting a puppy, etc.
"Being a loser" is just a perception. Unlike what society might lead you to believe, nobody gets to decide that you're a "loser" based on some arbitrary metric.
You sound like you're into programming so obviously there are things that bring you joy. You just may not have found other joyful activities yet, so just go out there and try new things.
Life is too good of an opportunity to waste with suicide
Honestly, the best remedy is find new hobbies. Some people mentioned sports/martial arts and religion/spiritualism, those are all fine options, and there are many more: cooking, gardening, biking, music classes, adopting a puppy, etc.
"Being a loser" is just a perception. Unlike what society might lead you to believe, nobody gets to decide that you're a "loser" based on some arbitrary metric.
You sound like you're into programming so obviously there are things that bring you joy. You just may not have found other joyful activities yet, so just go out there and try new things.
Life is too good of an opportunity to waste with suicide
Most guys don't know how to game their profiles. While I didn't match with like 7s-10s, I certainly matched, talked to, and met up with many women. Unfortunately in my area a lot of women who are single in their mid 20's typically have a kid, aren't very attractive, or are just very odd that most guys don't want to be with them.
But ultimately OP needs to get off Tinder not because it's bad for his self esteem. Mostly because he probably doesn't even have the appropriate aptitude to date at this time. Also, do not go into dating because you don't want to be lonely. Girls want to be your anchor, not the other way around. The cultural stereotypes of "the 'ol ball n chain" exist because the people who actually are in relationships understand this social dynamic. It's the people that aren't that don't.
But ultimately OP needs to get off Tinder not because it's bad for his self esteem. Mostly because he probably doesn't even have the appropriate aptitude to date at this time. Also, do not go into dating because you don't want to be lonely. Girls want to be your anchor, not the other way around. The cultural stereotypes of "the 'ol ball n chain" exist because the people who actually are in relationships understand this social dynamic. It's the people that aren't that don't.
+1,000: “Tinder is like Instagram, everyone is incentivized to fake or exaggerate how nice their life is.”
So true. And true of FB, Twitter, etc.
So true. And true of FB, Twitter, etc.
I was in a similar state at times in my early 20s. My advice is...
#1 Don't harm yourself. You are in a rough patch. It will be over at some point. Life is really very hard some times, but not all the time. Some times it is really fun and lovely. Those times will come again.
#2 Whenever you do something (work on a project/spend time with people/walk in nature/check in with social media) ask yourself do you feel better, healthier, happier, stronger after this activity or do you feel worse. Focus on those people and activities that "fill your bucket". To the greatest degree possible avoid people and actives that empty your bucket.
#3 Don't worry about it too much. Take it easy on yourself and be patient with yourself. Do worry too much about social media profiles. They aren't real. To the degree they are real, they are not the full story. Just try to have a good time where ever you can. Be nice to yourself.
#1 Don't harm yourself. You are in a rough patch. It will be over at some point. Life is really very hard some times, but not all the time. Some times it is really fun and lovely. Those times will come again.
#2 Whenever you do something (work on a project/spend time with people/walk in nature/check in with social media) ask yourself do you feel better, healthier, happier, stronger after this activity or do you feel worse. Focus on those people and activities that "fill your bucket". To the greatest degree possible avoid people and actives that empty your bucket.
#3 Don't worry about it too much. Take it easy on yourself and be patient with yourself. Do worry too much about social media profiles. They aren't real. To the degree they are real, they are not the full story. Just try to have a good time where ever you can. Be nice to yourself.
Hey man,
I'm sorry to hear you're feeling that way. I agree with most of the advice in this thread, but I'll also say if you're feeling like you have the urge to take your life, please wait that feeling out. I'm writing this home alone on a Friday night, so trust me when I say I've been there and I feel a similar type of loneliness in my life.
One thing I've been focusing on is trying to adopt one healthy habit a month. Just one. Many of the replies are giving good suggestions as to which habits to form (going outside, volunteering, working out, etc) but if you are feeling overwhelmed by this response, just pick one and do that for a month. Then add another. Your first few months are just about not feeling like shit. Once that stops, you can direct your life better because you will be more in touch with yourself.
Re: suicide, the best thing you can do when you feel this way is wait it out. Almost everyone who waits out this urge (and even depression) feels it pass. If you have someone in your life like this, it helps to just be with someone. You don't have to talk or do anything with them. You can consciously sit and do nothing, but do it in the presence of someone who cares for you. That's helped me.
This is most just from my experiences with depression and listlessness, so if something doesn't work, just ignore it. Again, I'm sorry you feel this way, but wait it out and build good habits slowly and hopefully things will start feeling better for you.
Godspeed my friend
I'm sorry to hear you're feeling that way. I agree with most of the advice in this thread, but I'll also say if you're feeling like you have the urge to take your life, please wait that feeling out. I'm writing this home alone on a Friday night, so trust me when I say I've been there and I feel a similar type of loneliness in my life.
One thing I've been focusing on is trying to adopt one healthy habit a month. Just one. Many of the replies are giving good suggestions as to which habits to form (going outside, volunteering, working out, etc) but if you are feeling overwhelmed by this response, just pick one and do that for a month. Then add another. Your first few months are just about not feeling like shit. Once that stops, you can direct your life better because you will be more in touch with yourself.
Re: suicide, the best thing you can do when you feel this way is wait it out. Almost everyone who waits out this urge (and even depression) feels it pass. If you have someone in your life like this, it helps to just be with someone. You don't have to talk or do anything with them. You can consciously sit and do nothing, but do it in the presence of someone who cares for you. That's helped me.
This is most just from my experiences with depression and listlessness, so if something doesn't work, just ignore it. Again, I'm sorry you feel this way, but wait it out and build good habits slowly and hopefully things will start feeling better for you.
Godspeed my friend
I would not take Tinder profiles as some kind of objective evidence of what "normal" people do. Article after article after article indicates that in dating profiles men claim to be taller than they are, the more attractive a photo is the older it probably is, etc.
I'm your age x2. Here's how it worked in the old days. You walked your area with friends and showed off in front of the girls you met. You met girls at the (church) youthclub or disco. You met girls at a bar or nightclub. You met girls at school and at work. You met girls while on holiday. I knew many girls in real life. I kissed a few but the only girl I ever 'hooked' up with was my wife. We were friends for 6 years before we started to date. I have been happily married for 25 years. My advice to you is twofold. Don't put yourself under so much pressure. Second, go out and enjoy other people's company. Life often tends to be you meet someone who connects you to a girl. This new world of cutting out the middle man seems strange to me but then where there is money to be made people will find it. I'm not sure it's important what you choose to do but find a real world activity where you can connect with others. You may make friends there, meet a girl, or just enjoy other people's company. You may even experience some drama there but that's part of the learning of being young. Thankfully some of the plans I pursued at your age didn't work out but it was all part of the journey. Good luck young man :-)
With ten years of development experience you should have some pretty good debugging skills by now but the bug report you submitted is missing the expected behavior as well as the execution environment. Sometimes you can be looking straight at the problem and simply not see it ... At that point you should find a second set of fresh eyes. Finally, make small imprints and celebrate when each new test passes ... You can do this - decide what you want and start making small changes and you'll quickly be surprised at the difference you've made!
> having an even stronger urge now in taking my own life
I hope you won't. People in my family have a lot of mental health problems, including depression, suicide attempts and involuntary commitment to the hospital. When this is happening, you brain is broken. It's lying to you, telling you that it can never get better. But it can get better.
I debated dropping out of school when I was 20 or so -- I felt like a failure academically, and like I couldn't cut it. Luckily, my program's director encouraged me and persuaded me to stick with it. But at the time, I was 100% convinced I was garbage. My brain was lying to me. I can see that now.
There's no sure-fire solution. For some people, therapy helps. For others, medication. For others, exercise. For others, huge lifestyle changes. I don't know how to help you, and I don't know that it will be easy or without relapses. I just know that you deserve the chance to be happy. My email's in my bio if you want to talk.
I hope you won't. People in my family have a lot of mental health problems, including depression, suicide attempts and involuntary commitment to the hospital. When this is happening, you brain is broken. It's lying to you, telling you that it can never get better. But it can get better.
I debated dropping out of school when I was 20 or so -- I felt like a failure academically, and like I couldn't cut it. Luckily, my program's director encouraged me and persuaded me to stick with it. But at the time, I was 100% convinced I was garbage. My brain was lying to me. I can see that now.
There's no sure-fire solution. For some people, therapy helps. For others, medication. For others, exercise. For others, huge lifestyle changes. I don't know how to help you, and I don't know that it will be easy or without relapses. I just know that you deserve the chance to be happy. My email's in my bio if you want to talk.
800-273-8255 is the number for the national suicide prevention hotline. Keep that number handy and use it if you need it...because:
Life is surprising. You have no idea what you will be doing in 5 years, and there is every chance that you will find currently unimaginable happiness. Finding out what form that happiness takes is the adventure. It might be travel, it might be love, it might be proving the Jacobson's conjecture. Find out!
Life is surprising. You have no idea what you will be doing in 5 years, and there is every chance that you will find currently unimaginable happiness. Finding out what form that happiness takes is the adventure. It might be travel, it might be love, it might be proving the Jacobson's conjecture. Find out!
So true and with ten years of hard work in the field of programming under your belt already you will have a lot of great career opportunities at your finger tips. You'll meet a lot of great people and this will benefit you beyond anything you can imagine right now.
Tinder is not for most people. You're competing against the top 5% (in looks) who have photos of themselves shirtless on a yacht party or something. I lived in suburban NJ and got zero matches.
When I moved to a young friendly and population dense city in Europe, and upgraded my photos, I started getting more matches. So there's that. Also even if you do get matches, only like 20% even respond to messages and only half of those turn into a first date. Ask me how I know.
I pretty much had no close friends or self confidence up until age 25, when I started working. It was a pretty dead end job but I focused on being good at it and upped my social skills in the process. Before then, I spent most of my time alone and wishing people would notice my 'excellent qualities' (they didn't). I learned that people (including myself) really only care about how they themselves feel, so if you can make people laugh or feel good, they will want to be around you.
Oh as for the recommendation to lift weights - I second it. You don't have to join a gym though - a pull-up bar, kettlebell, jump rope, will go a long way, and don't take up much space.
I'm 35 now. After working for 9 years I am on a long sabbatical and feeling a bit lost again. The difference now is I now have a few close friends and therefore not lonely anymore. I still have social anxiety but it's much better now.
When I moved to a young friendly and population dense city in Europe, and upgraded my photos, I started getting more matches. So there's that. Also even if you do get matches, only like 20% even respond to messages and only half of those turn into a first date. Ask me how I know.
I pretty much had no close friends or self confidence up until age 25, when I started working. It was a pretty dead end job but I focused on being good at it and upped my social skills in the process. Before then, I spent most of my time alone and wishing people would notice my 'excellent qualities' (they didn't). I learned that people (including myself) really only care about how they themselves feel, so if you can make people laugh or feel good, they will want to be around you.
Oh as for the recommendation to lift weights - I second it. You don't have to join a gym though - a pull-up bar, kettlebell, jump rope, will go a long way, and don't take up much space.
I'm 35 now. After working for 9 years I am on a long sabbatical and feeling a bit lost again. The difference now is I now have a few close friends and therefore not lonely anymore. I still have social anxiety but it's much better now.
I remember being like you describe at your age. Everyone in this is thread is saying great things and I don't need to repeat them, so I'll mention something different that helped me. That was literature. Books and plays like "Notes From The Underground" by Fyodor Dostoevsky, "You Can't Go Home Again" by Thomas Wolfe, "Long Day's Journey Into Night" by Eugene O'Neill and "Our Town" by Thornton Wilder. What you are feeling is not unique and it will pass, so don't think you will feel this way forever and consequently do yourself harm. Welcome to the human condition. That's what the books and plays said to me.
Immediately start doing regular volunteer work, anything away from the screens and that'll get you interacting with plenty of people. There's no shortage of demand and the barrier to entry is nil.
Here's what will happen:
- You will meet many new interesting people.
- You will make new friends, raising your chances of meeting your romantic partner.
- You will feel very satisfied seeing your work directly benefit someone in a much more precarious situation than yours.
- You will get physically active and take more sun, improving your cerebral chemistry which in turn will make you feel happier and more fulfilled.
- You will get a new outlook on life, reframing your current problems and coming up with new ways to deal with issues.
Beats being dead, don't you think?
Here's what will happen:
- You will meet many new interesting people.
- You will make new friends, raising your chances of meeting your romantic partner.
- You will feel very satisfied seeing your work directly benefit someone in a much more precarious situation than yours.
- You will get physically active and take more sun, improving your cerebral chemistry which in turn will make you feel happier and more fulfilled.
- You will get a new outlook on life, reframing your current problems and coming up with new ways to deal with issues.
Beats being dead, don't you think?
I disagree with the no shortage of demand part. The amount of volunteer positions I've been turned down from in my life is pretty mind blowing.
Still agree with the general concept.
Still agree with the general concept.
Just out of curiosity: would you like to share with us your previous experiences trying out volunteer positions?
Could be a cultural or geographic difference, but here in Brazil I've never heard of anyone being turned down from a volunteer job unless it required a very specific skillset (e.g. medical/nursing volunteering).
Could be a cultural or geographic difference, but here in Brazil I've never heard of anyone being turned down from a volunteer job unless it required a very specific skillset (e.g. medical/nursing volunteering).
justserve.org can be a good resource for individuals and/or organizations -- all free, it lets them coordinate by location etc.
Edit, from my related commend in another part: Justserve.org can be a good resource for individuals and/or organizations -- all free, it lets them coordinate by location etc. There are others like it I noted and could hunt up if needed.
Edit, from my related commend in another part: Justserve.org can be a good resource for individuals and/or organizations -- all free, it lets them coordinate by location etc. There are others like it I noted and could hunt up if needed.
It sounds like you are lonely and consumed by work.
The last 1.5 years has been extremely lonely time for a lot of people around the world. Take a little bit of relief in knowing a huge percentage of the entire world is in the same boat as you. You're not alone, you're not unique in this loneliness.
Forgive yourself. This is the most important part. I don't believe you're a complete failure in life, but even if you are, FORGIVE YOURSELF. Tell yourself, okay you made a mistake and you're human, but you forgive yourself and move on. Drop the shackles of shame and anger at yourself by forgiving yourself and move on. Otherwise the shame you feel will never go away. You're exceedingly young, and you can motivate yourself to put yourself in a position to be happy.
As the world starts opening up through the rest of this year, do your best to get out and socialize. Understand that the next couple of years will be hard but learn how to socialize the same way you learn mathematics and programming. Trial and error and many, many attempts. You will get better at it.
You need to find your people. Those that share similar interests or similar sense of humor, etc. People you can talk to in real life. If you can work in person, do this.
Tinder and all online dating apps are 100% based on looks. I am not particularly good looking and when I tried match.com (I'm over double your age) it was a disaster. If I needed to use Tinder today, it would be a disaster as well. But I've been able to find my fair share of girlfriends because I can carry a conversation and I inherently like talking with people. Find others that you can talk to and then try to meet people that way. It sounds hard, and it is. But keep on trying over and over and over again. That's the way you get better.
The last 1.5 years has been extremely lonely time for a lot of people around the world. Take a little bit of relief in knowing a huge percentage of the entire world is in the same boat as you. You're not alone, you're not unique in this loneliness.
Forgive yourself. This is the most important part. I don't believe you're a complete failure in life, but even if you are, FORGIVE YOURSELF. Tell yourself, okay you made a mistake and you're human, but you forgive yourself and move on. Drop the shackles of shame and anger at yourself by forgiving yourself and move on. Otherwise the shame you feel will never go away. You're exceedingly young, and you can motivate yourself to put yourself in a position to be happy.
As the world starts opening up through the rest of this year, do your best to get out and socialize. Understand that the next couple of years will be hard but learn how to socialize the same way you learn mathematics and programming. Trial and error and many, many attempts. You will get better at it.
You need to find your people. Those that share similar interests or similar sense of humor, etc. People you can talk to in real life. If you can work in person, do this.
Tinder and all online dating apps are 100% based on looks. I am not particularly good looking and when I tried match.com (I'm over double your age) it was a disaster. If I needed to use Tinder today, it would be a disaster as well. But I've been able to find my fair share of girlfriends because I can carry a conversation and I inherently like talking with people. Find others that you can talk to and then try to meet people that way. It sounds hard, and it is. But keep on trying over and over and over again. That's the way you get better.
23 is much too early to declare yourself a failure in life. That's the depression talking. "That shit ain't the truth."
Just because you're not having the outcomes that you want does not mean you're a failure.
Depression and feelings of inadequacy and failure are a vicious circle, because ... depression makes it hard to succeed.
Depression also makes it hard to connect with people, and hard to stay connected.
Depression also makes it hard to take care of yourself.
Try to find a primary care physician, or a therapist, or a similar professional. If you don't like who you find, for whatever reason, find a different one.
Treat them like a project manager. Be sure to be actively involved in choosing your management tactics.
I've tried suicide twice. Once when I was five. Once when I was about your age. I'm 63 now, and I'm glad that I didn't succeed.
Only within the last ten years did I ask for professional help. It saved my life. Most of my life prior was like dental work without novacaine.
Two of the things that have helped me (YMMV) are a prescription, and a career change.
Just because you're not having the outcomes that you want does not mean you're a failure.
Depression and feelings of inadequacy and failure are a vicious circle, because ... depression makes it hard to succeed.
Depression also makes it hard to connect with people, and hard to stay connected.
Depression also makes it hard to take care of yourself.
Try to find a primary care physician, or a therapist, or a similar professional. If you don't like who you find, for whatever reason, find a different one.
Treat them like a project manager. Be sure to be actively involved in choosing your management tactics.
I've tried suicide twice. Once when I was five. Once when I was about your age. I'm 63 now, and I'm glad that I didn't succeed.
Only within the last ten years did I ask for professional help. It saved my life. Most of my life prior was like dental work without novacaine.
Two of the things that have helped me (YMMV) are a prescription, and a career change.
> 23 is much too early to declare yourself a failure in life. That's the depression talking. "That shit ain't the truth."
See I want to believe this, but I’ve seen people in these sort of situations at later stages of life. I used to work with a guy probably twice my age. He was a software developer, but his career was a crapshoot because of circumstances and I suppose not understanding his options. He was never married, didn’t really have any friends, and in the time I knew him the family he had nearby was dying off. It was pretty apparent he was a lonely person and he used to invite me to just hang out and I would often oblige because nearly anything beats sitting in front of a screen mindlessly scrolling.
But it was always apparent to me that of the young people in the sort of situations that OP, myself or many others in this thread find themselves, at least some of us will become that person. Sure some, probably many will end up lucking out or embracing a sort of life style to escape it, but not everyone can win, and I’m not putting any money on luck.
I personally don’t like to describe myself as a “loser” as it tends to invoke a sort of societal caricature of some guy in a dead-end or no job, without a ton of money or luxuries who maybe indulges in some hedonistic activities on the side. Actually I’d much rather be that person because the ones I’ve known have actually managed decent relationships and have had interesting stories to tell. I have working the whole day and then going home to the internet, or perhaps a bar or club where I’ll drink too much and only ever arrange in very superficial conversations.
See I want to believe this, but I’ve seen people in these sort of situations at later stages of life. I used to work with a guy probably twice my age. He was a software developer, but his career was a crapshoot because of circumstances and I suppose not understanding his options. He was never married, didn’t really have any friends, and in the time I knew him the family he had nearby was dying off. It was pretty apparent he was a lonely person and he used to invite me to just hang out and I would often oblige because nearly anything beats sitting in front of a screen mindlessly scrolling.
But it was always apparent to me that of the young people in the sort of situations that OP, myself or many others in this thread find themselves, at least some of us will become that person. Sure some, probably many will end up lucking out or embracing a sort of life style to escape it, but not everyone can win, and I’m not putting any money on luck.
I personally don’t like to describe myself as a “loser” as it tends to invoke a sort of societal caricature of some guy in a dead-end or no job, without a ton of money or luxuries who maybe indulges in some hedonistic activities on the side. Actually I’d much rather be that person because the ones I’ve known have actually managed decent relationships and have had interesting stories to tell. I have working the whole day and then going home to the internet, or perhaps a bar or club where I’ll drink too much and only ever arrange in very superficial conversations.
Unless you're in prison for murder or mayhem, it's hard to say anyone is a "failure."
At most, you haven't found an arrangement that works for you.
The American Dream, for example, or parts thereof, is a perfectly good set of goals. Whatever your chosen career, is a perfectly good goal. But if you couldn't make that happen, there are lots of other ways to be satisfied, and to contribute.
I've been under employed, and went on Medicaid for actual survival (diabetes). I wasn't a failure, I was just in a very unpleasant situation.
The key to my change in happiness and outlook was to accept that who I thought I was, was no longer true, but something new and different was just fine.
Sometimes the tragedy is living in someone else's rut, even after that rut has run out.
At most, you haven't found an arrangement that works for you.
The American Dream, for example, or parts thereof, is a perfectly good set of goals. Whatever your chosen career, is a perfectly good goal. But if you couldn't make that happen, there are lots of other ways to be satisfied, and to contribute.
I've been under employed, and went on Medicaid for actual survival (diabetes). I wasn't a failure, I was just in a very unpleasant situation.
The key to my change in happiness and outlook was to accept that who I thought I was, was no longer true, but something new and different was just fine.
Sometimes the tragedy is living in someone else's rut, even after that rut has run out.
> 23 is much too early to declare yourself a failure in life.
How about 39? Asking for a friend.
How about 39? Asking for a friend.
That's not even half of a life yet. And considering the first 18-25 years were basically groping in the dark, 39 is nearer the end of the beginning than the beginning of the end.
"I know that I'm a complete failure in life."
Why do you say this? Because you aren't living the life of others? Because for whatever reasons you chose to program and do math instead of socialising and building social skills and friendship/relationships?
Maybe you are being too hard on yourself? After all you don't know what you don't know and even if you knew the decisions you made were going to result in this much suffering you never would have chose them to begin with.
The only thing you lack by the sounds of things is wisdom and perspective but you had to get to this point in order to have a genuine thirst and appreciation for them.
You are in the eye of the storm and it hurts. It feels like it will never end but it will. Let it pass like a thunderstorm. Brighter days are ahead.
If you want more practical ideas look at my bio. You may feel lonely but you are not alone :)
Why do you say this? Because you aren't living the life of others? Because for whatever reasons you chose to program and do math instead of socialising and building social skills and friendship/relationships?
Maybe you are being too hard on yourself? After all you don't know what you don't know and even if you knew the decisions you made were going to result in this much suffering you never would have chose them to begin with.
The only thing you lack by the sounds of things is wisdom and perspective but you had to get to this point in order to have a genuine thirst and appreciation for them.
You are in the eye of the storm and it hurts. It feels like it will never end but it will. Let it pass like a thunderstorm. Brighter days are ahead.
If you want more practical ideas look at my bio. You may feel lonely but you are not alone :)
Here's my problem - I know there are lots of people having the time of their lives like the people OP is seeing on Tinder, except they also better at programming and doing math than me because they just seem inherently better. Basically everyone at Stanford and MIT is having fun and still making more than me - it feels like all of my hard work has been for nothing, and that at 25 I'll never even have a fraction of the life experience even 19 year olds in college have.
I went to Stanford, did not have the time of my life, and spent much of my 20s feeling adrift and envious of my (seemingly) more professionally and socially successful peers.
Now that I’m in my 30s one of my main regrets is that I wasted so much time feeing sorry for myself and comparing myself to other people instead of just, like, _doing stuff_. You can start experiencing life right now. Go to some new places (even just in your local area), try out some random hobbies, read a book on a random subject you’ve assumed you have no interest in. Try to meet some people who don’t work in the tech industry. Have some compassion for yourself and recognize that almost everyone is struggling with something, and that it takes time to figure out what you value and enjoy and derive meaning from in life.
Now that I’m in my 30s one of my main regrets is that I wasted so much time feeing sorry for myself and comparing myself to other people instead of just, like, _doing stuff_. You can start experiencing life right now. Go to some new places (even just in your local area), try out some random hobbies, read a book on a random subject you’ve assumed you have no interest in. Try to meet some people who don’t work in the tech industry. Have some compassion for yourself and recognize that almost everyone is struggling with something, and that it takes time to figure out what you value and enjoy and derive meaning from in life.
Why compare yourself to others? You are living your life not theirs. You dont like your life? Change it. Investigate how much of your reality is a construct of your own mind.
Why is being better than everyone else at math and programming so important for you? Why is it so important that you earn more than others? Why does it upset you that others are having the time of their lives?
Why is being better than everyone else at math and programming so important for you? Why is it so important that you earn more than others? Why does it upset you that others are having the time of their lives?
> You dont like your life? Change it.
What can I do? I can't become more attractive like they are, most of that is genes. I'm already behind because I'm not white and under 6 foot. I can't become more intelligent because that's also mostly set in stone at this point.
> Why is it so important that you earn more than others?
I want to earn a number that won't make people pity me or think I'm subhuman like they do now.
> Why does it upset you that others are having the time of their lives?
Because i'll never have that. It's the never that upsets me, quite a bit.
What can I do? I can't become more attractive like they are, most of that is genes. I'm already behind because I'm not white and under 6 foot. I can't become more intelligent because that's also mostly set in stone at this point.
> Why is it so important that you earn more than others?
I want to earn a number that won't make people pity me or think I'm subhuman like they do now.
> Why does it upset you that others are having the time of their lives?
Because i'll never have that. It's the never that upsets me, quite a bit.
Learned helplessness is real [0]. There are some assumptions baked into your view of reality. Lets explore them..
- Attractiveness is limited only to what a persons face looks like, the color of their skin and their height.
- Intelligence is limited to being good at math and coding.
- Earning a lot of money is the only way to get the respect of others. The opinion of others towards an individual matters even though they dont know the individuals circumstances.
- Not having a particular experience other people are having right now means I will never get to have this experience (or better) at any stage in my life no matter how old I live to.
Test these assumptions and why you feel this way to begin with. If you lack creativity in how to do this follow the suggestions of others or just randomly try different things.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
- Attractiveness is limited only to what a persons face looks like, the color of their skin and their height.
- Intelligence is limited to being good at math and coding.
- Earning a lot of money is the only way to get the respect of others. The opinion of others towards an individual matters even though they dont know the individuals circumstances.
- Not having a particular experience other people are having right now means I will never get to have this experience (or better) at any stage in my life no matter how old I live to.
Test these assumptions and why you feel this way to begin with. If you lack creativity in how to do this follow the suggestions of others or just randomly try different things.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
You fell into the trap most nerds do -- you focused only on intellectual interests, and neglected other aspects of life.
The good news is that you're very young, and have so much time ahead of you still. You just have to have to from now on go all in into making yourself a better, more interesting person to other people, so you can make some friends, get laid and all the rest.
Go to the gym, get a nice body. Practice some sports. Read non-technical books. Get a dog, take it to the park. Go to a club, hit on some chicks, hear a lot of no's. Make some friends, develop some social skills. Learn to dress well, shower daily, get a nice haircut, invest in beauty products. Travel, even if alone. Make some money.
Forget what you can't change about yourself and focus on what you can. Just my two cents.
The good news is that you're very young, and have so much time ahead of you still. You just have to have to from now on go all in into making yourself a better, more interesting person to other people, so you can make some friends, get laid and all the rest.
Go to the gym, get a nice body. Practice some sports. Read non-technical books. Get a dog, take it to the park. Go to a club, hit on some chicks, hear a lot of no's. Make some friends, develop some social skills. Learn to dress well, shower daily, get a nice haircut, invest in beauty products. Travel, even if alone. Make some money.
Forget what you can't change about yourself and focus on what you can. Just my two cents.
> You fell into the trap most nerds do -- you focused only on intellectual interests, and neglected other aspects of life.
I think this is valid, but objectively there are so many people who do this and everything else orders of magnitude better. This is what makes me sad, personally. And "just going to the gym", imho, isn't terribly useful advice - I think even CICO isn't realistic for a lot of people. I try starving myself often but I never have the willpower :(
I think this is valid, but objectively there are so many people who do this and everything else orders of magnitude better. This is what makes me sad, personally. And "just going to the gym", imho, isn't terribly useful advice - I think even CICO isn't realistic for a lot of people. I try starving myself often but I never have the willpower :(
Try keto. It's not a walk in the part, but it's a hell of a lot easier than starving yourself.
3 simple steps:
1. Quit social media and Tinder. Quit anything that makes you compare your life to others. Humans are wired to compare themselves to others and eventually end up feeling inadequate. Social media aggregates the comparison process 100X.
2. Start exercising if you already don't. There's nothing better than that post workout feeling. As a bonus, it makes you feel that you've accomplished something today.
3. Find your purpose in life. This is a hard one and might take some deeper thinking. But once you find it, no one will be able to stop you from achieving whatever you want in life. It should be a broad enough purpose that technically can never end. For example, something like 'I want to use Technology to solve common world problems' - this can go on your entire life.
1. Quit social media and Tinder. Quit anything that makes you compare your life to others. Humans are wired to compare themselves to others and eventually end up feeling inadequate. Social media aggregates the comparison process 100X.
2. Start exercising if you already don't. There's nothing better than that post workout feeling. As a bonus, it makes you feel that you've accomplished something today.
3. Find your purpose in life. This is a hard one and might take some deeper thinking. But once you find it, no one will be able to stop you from achieving whatever you want in life. It should be a broad enough purpose that technically can never end. For example, something like 'I want to use Technology to solve common world problems' - this can go on your entire life.
Here's my list of actions you can do right away to break yourself out of torturous loops.
1. If you're stuck in a thought loop walk into another room (or even better go for a walk in nature).
2. Write a stream of consciousness every morning. Force yourself to write three or more pages (keep this writing hidden and secret, it's scary what comes out, especially at first).
3. Take cold showers. You can start warm, but aim to have a two minute cold shower. Or even better going swimming in cold water everyday.
---
A book I can highly recommend is The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Lemme know if you want a copy.
1. If you're stuck in a thought loop walk into another room (or even better go for a walk in nature).
2. Write a stream of consciousness every morning. Force yourself to write three or more pages (keep this writing hidden and secret, it's scary what comes out, especially at first).
3. Take cold showers. You can start warm, but aim to have a two minute cold shower. Or even better going swimming in cold water everyday.
---
A book I can highly recommend is The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Lemme know if you want a copy.
Hi,
I've never created an account on HN before, despite many years of lurking. But I felt compelled to comment here because I want to offer what encouragement I can.
Personally, I made it through tough times in my life by opening up to the people who I knew cared about me. Good friends and family.
I don't know what your personal situation is like, but if there is anyone that comes to your mind who you can rely on to be there for you, reach out to them. Spend time with them. Sometimes you don't even have to talk about anything; merely being with others who treasure you as a human being can help you weather the worst emotions.
If you don't feel there is anyone like this in your life, then I personally extend my friendship to you. I'm posting on a throwaway because I don't like having a public identity, but I've added an email address in my profile that you can contact. If you're open to the idea, write me whenever you'd like.
Good luck and take care of yourself. I'm not much older than you are, but I learned some time ago that life is long and far more surprising than you think. You might not be able to imagine a better future, but it both exists and becomes increasingly likely as things get worse. All it takes is a bit of faith and time.
Hope this helps!
I've never created an account on HN before, despite many years of lurking. But I felt compelled to comment here because I want to offer what encouragement I can.
Personally, I made it through tough times in my life by opening up to the people who I knew cared about me. Good friends and family.
I don't know what your personal situation is like, but if there is anyone that comes to your mind who you can rely on to be there for you, reach out to them. Spend time with them. Sometimes you don't even have to talk about anything; merely being with others who treasure you as a human being can help you weather the worst emotions.
If you don't feel there is anyone like this in your life, then I personally extend my friendship to you. I'm posting on a throwaway because I don't like having a public identity, but I've added an email address in my profile that you can contact. If you're open to the idea, write me whenever you'd like.
Good luck and take care of yourself. I'm not much older than you are, but I learned some time ago that life is long and far more surprising than you think. You might not be able to imagine a better future, but it both exists and becomes increasingly likely as things get worse. All it takes is a bit of faith and time.
Hope this helps!
> Seeing in the profile pictures what "normal", "well-rounded" people in my age are doing on Tinder, such as traveling, spending time with friends, etc., made my pain even worse, let alone the fact that I received zero matches. Feeling like a social outcast, and having an even stronger urge now in taking my own life - a decision I contemplated many times - ... I just feel very lost in life. I know that I'm a complete failure in life.
Who cares about what the average person on Tinder is up to? Nobody has actually outcasted you, but you may feel different from others because you are - learn to be proud of thinking different and being an outlier. You are not lost, probably bored. There's no such thing as failing life because there is no test. Keep programming and doing what you love. Keep playing the numbers game of Tinder, maybe you will get matched soon with someone who will enjoy listening to you talk about your passion. No matter what you do, don't give up. If you were ready to take your life, why not instead do something bold, spontaneous, exciting? Enjoy the life given to you.
Who cares about what the average person on Tinder is up to? Nobody has actually outcasted you, but you may feel different from others because you are - learn to be proud of thinking different and being an outlier. You are not lost, probably bored. There's no such thing as failing life because there is no test. Keep programming and doing what you love. Keep playing the numbers game of Tinder, maybe you will get matched soon with someone who will enjoy listening to you talk about your passion. No matter what you do, don't give up. If you were ready to take your life, why not instead do something bold, spontaneous, exciting? Enjoy the life given to you.
Lots of great advice in these comments.
What would I add?
Get off Tinder and go out into the world outside of work, trying organizations, groups, conferences, classes in areas you've ever thought " that looks interesting", " I'd like to try that".....
You will meet people just like you, that share these same interests. There is a high probability you will meet someone as interested in you as you are in them.
The web offers so many ways to find these groups, organizations,..... that were never available before. Being that you are a programmer, you can probably write a routine to give you more options than you need.
I too enjoyed programming and math, which for me was about solving puzzles presented as tasks or problems, getting immersed in a thought machine, and seeing the results. This skill can be expanded into many different vocations and a vocations, a " secret sauce" allowing you to succeed in what ever , how ever you define " success" . Could be sitting in a hammock In Key West after a day of inventing an algorithm to count manatees from drone images during their winter gatherings in Florida, or Bora Bora doing something else. Or working for Hilton and stay for free, or an airline and fly for free. You get the idea.
At 23, you definitely have a whole world ahead of you for as long as the ride lasts. The adventures, puzzles to be figured out, fascinating people to meet; way too many opportunities for others to benefit from your life in ways you cannot imagine. Ending that denies the world those unique aspects only you can create. Seems like a waste to me. Definitely seek professional help if you find yourself thinking about it.
Lots of great reading out there. This has talked me off the ledge more than once.
Get off Tinder and go out into the world outside of work, trying organizations, groups, conferences, classes in areas you've ever thought " that looks interesting", " I'd like to try that".....
You will meet people just like you, that share these same interests. There is a high probability you will meet someone as interested in you as you are in them.
The web offers so many ways to find these groups, organizations,..... that were never available before. Being that you are a programmer, you can probably write a routine to give you more options than you need.
I too enjoyed programming and math, which for me was about solving puzzles presented as tasks or problems, getting immersed in a thought machine, and seeing the results. This skill can be expanded into many different vocations and a vocations, a " secret sauce" allowing you to succeed in what ever , how ever you define " success" . Could be sitting in a hammock In Key West after a day of inventing an algorithm to count manatees from drone images during their winter gatherings in Florida, or Bora Bora doing something else. Or working for Hilton and stay for free, or an airline and fly for free. You get the idea.
At 23, you definitely have a whole world ahead of you for as long as the ride lasts. The adventures, puzzles to be figured out, fascinating people to meet; way too many opportunities for others to benefit from your life in ways you cannot imagine. Ending that denies the world those unique aspects only you can create. Seems like a waste to me. Definitely seek professional help if you find yourself thinking about it.
Lots of great reading out there. This has talked me off the ledge more than once.
Reminds me what I felt like finishing college. Leaving behind all those people, never to be seen again. Last bluebook in the bin, reached the end of the pipeline, just a drip hanging from the lip about 30 feet above the open plain of life. NOW what? Started hanging out with non-college people. HEY, there IS life afterwards.
Life is much more than brain. It's also heart, and creating your story. (You don't want someone else doing that.) Finding friends means getting away from the keyboard, the books. IME, the fact that an algorithm found zero matches is kind of funny. Code doesn't know life exists. Often in life our bestest mates are -unlike us-. Usually smarter in other ways too.
Inspiration? Meh. If it comes, it comes. Whaddya got to prove? Life only has one deadline. Lots of people take a stretch before pressing on. Read about E.B. White yesterday. Bucky Fuller the day before that.
Travel. The world is HUGE. Wish I'd done more of that. You may find a culture you can relate to more. There are always people to know, everywhere - give them a chance. Seek and ye shall find.
Life is much more than brain. It's also heart, and creating your story. (You don't want someone else doing that.) Finding friends means getting away from the keyboard, the books. IME, the fact that an algorithm found zero matches is kind of funny. Code doesn't know life exists. Often in life our bestest mates are -unlike us-. Usually smarter in other ways too.
Inspiration? Meh. If it comes, it comes. Whaddya got to prove? Life only has one deadline. Lots of people take a stretch before pressing on. Read about E.B. White yesterday. Bucky Fuller the day before that.
Travel. The world is HUGE. Wish I'd done more of that. You may find a culture you can relate to more. There are always people to know, everywhere - give them a chance. Seek and ye shall find.
I went through depression from 24 to roughly 28. It was a slippery slope, first I would attribute some genuine reason for feeling low and then I would invent reasons.
Added with low self esteem, disconnectedness, zero social life. (I am usually not that kind of person, I generally attract people easily in a social setup).
I cried at nights, lot of sleepless nights. Just drifting through. Lost some of my precious prime time on that. Feeling worthless (I was doing extremely well at work) and suicidal thoughts as well.
Life changes to a better state sooner or later. Now I am married to a beautiful person for 6 years. My friends and family come to me when they feel bad about some issue. That’s the full 180 degree transformation.
My point is it will happen to you as well. You are too young now. Being human is precious, never entertain thoughts about throwing it away. It’s just temporary stage in your life. Life will turn for better. Much better than your own expectations.
Meantime as others said - do physical workout. Mind will come under control when you work your body out.
Meditate.
If spending time with your age folks is draining you, pick some of the matured ones or spend time with older folks or help kids through some program.
Please don’t compare your life with anyone else especially through social media lens. Most likely they may not be true as people project.
Volunteer.
You are too young to judge your own life. You have a lot more things in store in your life. Definitely talk to some older folks who had seen it all, you will get a different perspective about life.
If you are not harming anyone or yourself, you are already a great person.
Remember someday someone else would be in need of you to lift them up. Be there for them.
Stay calm.
Added with low self esteem, disconnectedness, zero social life. (I am usually not that kind of person, I generally attract people easily in a social setup).
I cried at nights, lot of sleepless nights. Just drifting through. Lost some of my precious prime time on that. Feeling worthless (I was doing extremely well at work) and suicidal thoughts as well.
Life changes to a better state sooner or later. Now I am married to a beautiful person for 6 years. My friends and family come to me when they feel bad about some issue. That’s the full 180 degree transformation.
My point is it will happen to you as well. You are too young now. Being human is precious, never entertain thoughts about throwing it away. It’s just temporary stage in your life. Life will turn for better. Much better than your own expectations.
Meantime as others said - do physical workout. Mind will come under control when you work your body out.
Meditate.
If spending time with your age folks is draining you, pick some of the matured ones or spend time with older folks or help kids through some program.
Please don’t compare your life with anyone else especially through social media lens. Most likely they may not be true as people project.
Volunteer.
You are too young to judge your own life. You have a lot more things in store in your life. Definitely talk to some older folks who had seen it all, you will get a different perspective about life.
If you are not harming anyone or yourself, you are already a great person.
Remember someday someone else would be in need of you to lift them up. Be there for them.
Stay calm.
Step 1: Talk to a therapist!
Step 2: Take it from someone who was were you are at 23, but now 42: effects of early life disadvantages, disasters and even seemingly set personality traits (I'm an INTJ) disappear or smooth out over time. Also, you have oodles of time. At my age, I still have more productive adult years ahead of me than behind me.
Step 3: "Everything is a signal in the brain" is something I used to tell myself back then. Trying to change your brain state by changing the external world can be inefficient, especially if you have your basic needs met already. Work internally. Which is why speaking to a therapist matters.
Step 4: Get out of the house (provided you're not on lockdown). Force yourself to go to public gatherings or public places. It will feel unnatural at first, but remember that what feels natural is what you're used to. Get used to it. Staying at home is a recipe for sending your brain into unhealthy feedback loops.
Step 2: Take it from someone who was were you are at 23, but now 42: effects of early life disadvantages, disasters and even seemingly set personality traits (I'm an INTJ) disappear or smooth out over time. Also, you have oodles of time. At my age, I still have more productive adult years ahead of me than behind me.
Step 3: "Everything is a signal in the brain" is something I used to tell myself back then. Trying to change your brain state by changing the external world can be inefficient, especially if you have your basic needs met already. Work internally. Which is why speaking to a therapist matters.
Step 4: Get out of the house (provided you're not on lockdown). Force yourself to go to public gatherings or public places. It will feel unnatural at first, but remember that what feels natural is what you're used to. Get used to it. Staying at home is a recipe for sending your brain into unhealthy feedback loops.
> Feeling like a social outcast, and having an even stronger urge now in taking my own life - a decision I contemplated many times - ... I just feel very lost in life. I know that I'm a complete failure in life.
There's a stigma around mental health, but I would highly suggest going to a therapist/psychiatrist. That might be mild depression.
There's a stigma around mental health, but I would highly suggest going to a therapist/psychiatrist. That might be mild depression.
I was literally just going to comment this. If you're having suicidal thoughts, you need to see someone or do telehealth. There are providers who you can contact remotely. There is no reason to feel ashamed about contacting a therapist/psychiatrist. They really do help. I can speak from experience. If you have medical insurance, look at their website for a provider. If you don't, take a look here: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/help-yourself/
I’m sorry to hear that you’re feeling like an outcast.
First, I want you to know these feelings are reasonable and you’re not alone in feeling that way.
Second, while it may seem hopeless or insurmountable, you can make changes.
You have an opportunity now in front of you. You have identified an area in life where you feel inadequate. But you don’t have to feel that way permanently. You can make changes to build up your experience in that area. And I totally understand that it feels hard to know where to start, how to make progress, or whether it’s possible. It can feel demoralizing. But if you’re up for the challenge, you can grow.
I have often felt this way and I’ve slowly improved over time — now I’m 28 and have done a number of things I saw everyone else doing when I was 22 feeling like I had already thrown away my life.
If you’re open to chatting about it and think it would be helpful, shoot me an email: skylar.b.payne (at) gmail.com.
Wishing you peace
First, I want you to know these feelings are reasonable and you’re not alone in feeling that way.
Second, while it may seem hopeless or insurmountable, you can make changes.
You have an opportunity now in front of you. You have identified an area in life where you feel inadequate. But you don’t have to feel that way permanently. You can make changes to build up your experience in that area. And I totally understand that it feels hard to know where to start, how to make progress, or whether it’s possible. It can feel demoralizing. But if you’re up for the challenge, you can grow.
I have often felt this way and I’ve slowly improved over time — now I’m 28 and have done a number of things I saw everyone else doing when I was 22 feeling like I had already thrown away my life.
If you’re open to chatting about it and think it would be helpful, shoot me an email: skylar.b.payne (at) gmail.com.
Wishing you peace
Get off Tinder, it is doing more harm than good.
Men at 18-22 have a particularly hard life, I can tell. Their peak in life is a lot later than women, so if at 22 women do what they want and get what they want, men have this in their thirties and later. It's a difference, it's not better one way or another.
At this age companionship is important and hard to get, but looking back it is not that hard if you know what to do:
1. look for people in your neighborhood. unless you live in a deserted area, there are men and women in a mile radius. Find people with the same passions or women that are kind and pleasant to interact with.
2. You are not looking for marriage material at this age. Tinder is for "fun only", but very shallow and difficult for men to get matches, spend some time in coffee shops or places where women your age are. In many cases even the girl at the McDonalds or CVS is a nice person looking for company.
3. Take care of yourself; keep your body fit and weight under control, it sounds hard but at this age it is extremely easy versus later.
4. Find some activities that you enjoy and spend some time on it. Get on a mountain bike if you like it, get a motorbike, go shooting paper (it's an Olympic sport), run a marathon, do something fun. First, it will help your mood, second - you can meet people, third, some people will find your activities interesting or attractive and that will attract people. You have the chance of meeting people with the same passion, that makes it a great long term bond.
And take baby steps, in time you will learn to be more socially open. When you are a noob in any domain people avoid you, when you get proficient they will come to you. There is no replacement for experience, start building experience. Don't fear rejection, it is part of every man's life, you will get used and get hardened.
And drop Tinder. It is doing more harm than good, both for men and women.
Men at 18-22 have a particularly hard life, I can tell. Their peak in life is a lot later than women, so if at 22 women do what they want and get what they want, men have this in their thirties and later. It's a difference, it's not better one way or another.
At this age companionship is important and hard to get, but looking back it is not that hard if you know what to do:
1. look for people in your neighborhood. unless you live in a deserted area, there are men and women in a mile radius. Find people with the same passions or women that are kind and pleasant to interact with.
2. You are not looking for marriage material at this age. Tinder is for "fun only", but very shallow and difficult for men to get matches, spend some time in coffee shops or places where women your age are. In many cases even the girl at the McDonalds or CVS is a nice person looking for company.
3. Take care of yourself; keep your body fit and weight under control, it sounds hard but at this age it is extremely easy versus later.
4. Find some activities that you enjoy and spend some time on it. Get on a mountain bike if you like it, get a motorbike, go shooting paper (it's an Olympic sport), run a marathon, do something fun. First, it will help your mood, second - you can meet people, third, some people will find your activities interesting or attractive and that will attract people. You have the chance of meeting people with the same passion, that makes it a great long term bond.
And take baby steps, in time you will learn to be more socially open. When you are a noob in any domain people avoid you, when you get proficient they will come to you. There is no replacement for experience, start building experience. Don't fear rejection, it is part of every man's life, you will get used and get hardened.
And drop Tinder. It is doing more harm than good, both for men and women.
I got really lucky with match.com.
Sometimes math and programming can be a bit harsh too. I really feel like reading anything - People magazine, novels, poetry - whatever vaguely might interest you a bit, can be fun. Let yourself indulge without judgement.
Erikson talks about your age involving 'intimacy v. isolation' - and you're just at the start of this stage. It gets better, and easier, more so when coming out of deep valleys.
I've had people in my life very prone to depression, and a lot of it has to do with being really smart and feeling things keenly. It's attached to your super powers, but it's so important to figure out ways to balance things out (more breadth-first search, less depth-first search, wherever possible).
Take care, man. It was an unusual past year. With unusual fallouts. I hope you take it easy on yourself, and try out fun little things that grow.
Sometimes math and programming can be a bit harsh too. I really feel like reading anything - People magazine, novels, poetry - whatever vaguely might interest you a bit, can be fun. Let yourself indulge without judgement.
Erikson talks about your age involving 'intimacy v. isolation' - and you're just at the start of this stage. It gets better, and easier, more so when coming out of deep valleys.
I've had people in my life very prone to depression, and a lot of it has to do with being really smart and feeling things keenly. It's attached to your super powers, but it's so important to figure out ways to balance things out (more breadth-first search, less depth-first search, wherever possible).
Take care, man. It was an unusual past year. With unusual fallouts. I hope you take it easy on yourself, and try out fun little things that grow.
Social anxiety is the norm. We are all faking it. It takes practice, just like any other skill. How have you built your existing skills? You’ve put yourself in situations where you could practice. Social skills are the same, you have to seek out interaction. Do it at a pace that doesn’t give you panic attacks. And be nice to yourself when you screw up (think how often you screw up in math or programming - and you don’t beat yourself up!)
I’ve seen some good suggestions in the comments about social opportunities. But let your curiosity drive you. For some people it’s a jiu jitsu gym, for others it’s church. Other people have D&D or Magic. Just pick something and approach it with your engineering practicality.
Most importantly, above everything, go talk to a mental health professional and tel them you are experiencing depression and thinking about suicide.
I’ve seen some good suggestions in the comments about social opportunities. But let your curiosity drive you. For some people it’s a jiu jitsu gym, for others it’s church. Other people have D&D or Magic. Just pick something and approach it with your engineering practicality.
Most importantly, above everything, go talk to a mental health professional and tel them you are experiencing depression and thinking about suicide.
All social media, be it Tinder or elsewhere, is people's (possibly exaggerated) highlight reels. Don't compare your day-to-day average to that. The only thing worth comparing yourself is past you, to see if you're moving in the right direction. (But stop doing that once you get older :) )
Try to see things from the following perspective: If you want to end your life as it is today, that’s perfectly fine – but you don’t need to kill yourself to do so!
You are obviously willing to take extreme measures to bring an end to your situation; well, then, let’s have a look at the catalogue of extreme measures at your disposal. Suicide is an obvious option, but how about the following alternative:
- Sell everything you have, take the money, and put all of yourself and all your resources into supporting something like Partners In Health; like, literally move to Haiti and dedicate your life to the poorest of the poorest of this country.
That’s just one example from the top of my head, obviously. My point is this: the “spirit” for drastic steps is already there – use it to take the steps that 99,999% of us never muster the courage to take.
Salvation might await you.
You are obviously willing to take extreme measures to bring an end to your situation; well, then, let’s have a look at the catalogue of extreme measures at your disposal. Suicide is an obvious option, but how about the following alternative:
- Sell everything you have, take the money, and put all of yourself and all your resources into supporting something like Partners In Health; like, literally move to Haiti and dedicate your life to the poorest of the poorest of this country.
That’s just one example from the top of my head, obviously. My point is this: the “spirit” for drastic steps is already there – use it to take the steps that 99,999% of us never muster the courage to take.
Salvation might await you.
Volunteer! See if your local animal shelter needs someone to walk dogs, clean cages, or measure out food. Your local food bank probably needs someone to sort donations or make up boxes. You'll be doing something valuable and it's a great way to meet people in a low-stress environment.
This. One site that can help is justserve.org .
Edit: There are also others like it I noted and could hunt up if needed.
Edit: There are also others like it I noted and could hunt up if needed.
First, I do think that a therapist is the right way to start to change what you want to change.
That said, I will give my unprofessional opinion on the chance is the insight you need.
I think human connection through a community will help you more than through dating. Go on a quest on the internet to find those people that you enjoy hanging around and, with time, you would feel comfortable sharing these feelings without a throwaway account, even if you never do actually share. Just try to find people that makes you feel better, not worse, when you are with them.
Could work colleagues, board game enthusiasts, fellow students in a creative writing class, some online game, book club, running club, anything. Go explore and keep trying until you find your tribe.
That said, I will give my unprofessional opinion on the chance is the insight you need.
I think human connection through a community will help you more than through dating. Go on a quest on the internet to find those people that you enjoy hanging around and, with time, you would feel comfortable sharing these feelings without a throwaway account, even if you never do actually share. Just try to find people that makes you feel better, not worse, when you are with them.
Could work colleagues, board game enthusiasts, fellow students in a creative writing class, some online game, book club, running club, anything. Go explore and keep trying until you find your tribe.
Just quit this marketplace of egoboosting and lonely attention junkies (almost all of them, even girls with beautiful photos).
Focus your attention on something real, meaningful, whatever it may be. Something that will fulfill you, not give some cheap dopamine to your ego.
Focus your attention on something real, meaningful, whatever it may be. Something that will fulfill you, not give some cheap dopamine to your ego.
As someone who used to be in this kind of situation myself, I have a hot take about this sort of thing.
To put it briefly, you need to become a normal man; normal meaning in the context of human history, not necessarily the current year. A normal man doesn't stare at a screen all day doing STEM stuff. He doesn't play video games. He talks to people, works out, goes into nature, cares about his appearance, is focused on building a family, etc. You can justify anything to yourself with intellect: "Well there's nothing inherently worse about video games than other forms of entertainment, at least I'm engaging with it" or "Working out is vanity and I'm above such things, so I'll just maybe eat less dessert, I don't need to be buff or strong, that's a waste of my brain power and time." You have to stop thinking this kind of thing. It's a cope that has developed throughout your entire life to deal with insecurities. You can be the buff, happy go lucky jock archetype who grills on the weekends with his buddies and his girlfriend, and crucially, you can enjoy being this. I know, "I don't want to be as shallow as a jock, that's not me," but you actually do. You project negative traits onto this kind of life because to think otherwise is to accept your lifestyle is wasted and stupid. They are happy and you are not. You are not superior to them, you are worse, because you are unhappy.
Your instinct knows what to do. It knows that video games are a waste of time. It knows that coding all day is going to make you lonely and undesirable. Why would a woman want to date a guy who's main hobby is typing on a screen? There has been a recent push in society for people to "just do whatever makes you happy and be yourself," and this is the result: a huge swathe of people addicted to dopamine and escapism, who even disdain the idea of "acting" like "someone they're not". What you're not, is happy. Stop doing all that shit that you know is not helping anything. Start doing the shit you think is dumb and vapid yet somehow manages to make everyone happy for all of human history. Hit the gym and talk to a stranger. You will change by acting.
To put it briefly, you need to become a normal man; normal meaning in the context of human history, not necessarily the current year. A normal man doesn't stare at a screen all day doing STEM stuff. He doesn't play video games. He talks to people, works out, goes into nature, cares about his appearance, is focused on building a family, etc. You can justify anything to yourself with intellect: "Well there's nothing inherently worse about video games than other forms of entertainment, at least I'm engaging with it" or "Working out is vanity and I'm above such things, so I'll just maybe eat less dessert, I don't need to be buff or strong, that's a waste of my brain power and time." You have to stop thinking this kind of thing. It's a cope that has developed throughout your entire life to deal with insecurities. You can be the buff, happy go lucky jock archetype who grills on the weekends with his buddies and his girlfriend, and crucially, you can enjoy being this. I know, "I don't want to be as shallow as a jock, that's not me," but you actually do. You project negative traits onto this kind of life because to think otherwise is to accept your lifestyle is wasted and stupid. They are happy and you are not. You are not superior to them, you are worse, because you are unhappy.
Your instinct knows what to do. It knows that video games are a waste of time. It knows that coding all day is going to make you lonely and undesirable. Why would a woman want to date a guy who's main hobby is typing on a screen? There has been a recent push in society for people to "just do whatever makes you happy and be yourself," and this is the result: a huge swathe of people addicted to dopamine and escapism, who even disdain the idea of "acting" like "someone they're not". What you're not, is happy. Stop doing all that shit that you know is not helping anything. Start doing the shit you think is dumb and vapid yet somehow manages to make everyone happy for all of human history. Hit the gym and talk to a stranger. You will change by acting.
You are definitely not a complete failure in life! That is an absolute lie. Don't say things like that to yourself.
Realize that you are actually not yet a fully grown adult. You are transitioning into adulthood, and that can be hard.
Society is a little messed up and is not supporting you as well as it should. But there is abundance and society will support you if you tap into it in the right way.
Just based off what you've written here, I can tell that you're smart and are a good communicator and writer.
Be brave. Don't be bitter. Don't burn bridges. Be kind. Realize that you are valuable. Be strong. We're rooting for you!
"The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are." -Jung
Realize that you are actually not yet a fully grown adult. You are transitioning into adulthood, and that can be hard.
Society is a little messed up and is not supporting you as well as it should. But there is abundance and society will support you if you tap into it in the right way.
Just based off what you've written here, I can tell that you're smart and are a good communicator and writer.
Be brave. Don't be bitter. Don't burn bridges. Be kind. Realize that you are valuable. Be strong. We're rooting for you!
"The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are." -Jung
One possible model is to view existence as a 3-dimensional space of body, mind and soul.
Your AskHN hints at a crisis of the soul. Recognize this. Specifically, this is not a crisis that any sex or drugs or rock'n'roll can address (more than temporarily).
Nor is it really an intellectual question, though you've come to an intellectual venue. If philosophy could quench this (all too frequent) thirst, that beverage would have long since arrived.
I can only offer you what worked for me, the Gospel. Read it prayerfully and carefully, for its counter-intuitive saga is the meaning of life, and is capable of delivering meaning to you.
Best wishes to you in dealing with everything.
Your AskHN hints at a crisis of the soul. Recognize this. Specifically, this is not a crisis that any sex or drugs or rock'n'roll can address (more than temporarily).
Nor is it really an intellectual question, though you've come to an intellectual venue. If philosophy could quench this (all too frequent) thirst, that beverage would have long since arrived.
I can only offer you what worked for me, the Gospel. Read it prayerfully and carefully, for its counter-intuitive saga is the meaning of life, and is capable of delivering meaning to you.
Best wishes to you in dealing with everything.
"I know that I'm a complete failure in life."
I am much, much older than you, and how I wish I was your age and had pretty much my whole life ahead of me.
You could still accomplish so much, if that's what you want to do.
Just think of it. Could you save one life? I bet you could. Maybe you could save many lives, if you set your mind to it... but even saving one life is a lot more than many people do.
Often it is service to others that is most fulfilling. Consider volunteering at some place that's doing work you value. Apart from helping others in ways you care about, you can connect with others who share your deepest values, which are the best types of connections to make.. much better than the kind of connections you're likely to make on Tinder.
You could also pursue many other paths. You are pretty much all potential at this point.
Regarding loneliness, I've found that one of the best cures for that is learning to enjoy your own company and be your own best friend... that takes learning to like, even love yourself (not in a way that sets you above or ahead of anyone else, but in the sense that you have compassion for yourself and take care of yourself instead of being self-destructive and full of self-loathing). Be curious about the world, develop new interests, learn, do. Once you like yourself and enjoy your own company, you'll find others are more likely to enjoy your company too.
But you do have to reach out to others too.. not just cocoon yourself up at home or swipe on dating sites. Try going in person to meetups of people who share your (hopefully many) interests. Then, try to really connect with some of these people on a more than superficial level (this can take time and effort, but that's the only way it's going to happen.. there are no shortcuts). Try to find people who inspire and motivate you, and avoid those that bring you down and sabotage you. And, of course, don't self-sabotage.. that's the biggest trap. Many people are their own worst enemies. Try to find the wise course of action and actually follow through.
I could go on, but this post is way too long already. Hope some of it helped...
I am much, much older than you, and how I wish I was your age and had pretty much my whole life ahead of me.
You could still accomplish so much, if that's what you want to do.
Just think of it. Could you save one life? I bet you could. Maybe you could save many lives, if you set your mind to it... but even saving one life is a lot more than many people do.
Often it is service to others that is most fulfilling. Consider volunteering at some place that's doing work you value. Apart from helping others in ways you care about, you can connect with others who share your deepest values, which are the best types of connections to make.. much better than the kind of connections you're likely to make on Tinder.
You could also pursue many other paths. You are pretty much all potential at this point.
Regarding loneliness, I've found that one of the best cures for that is learning to enjoy your own company and be your own best friend... that takes learning to like, even love yourself (not in a way that sets you above or ahead of anyone else, but in the sense that you have compassion for yourself and take care of yourself instead of being self-destructive and full of self-loathing). Be curious about the world, develop new interests, learn, do. Once you like yourself and enjoy your own company, you'll find others are more likely to enjoy your company too.
But you do have to reach out to others too.. not just cocoon yourself up at home or swipe on dating sites. Try going in person to meetups of people who share your (hopefully many) interests. Then, try to really connect with some of these people on a more than superficial level (this can take time and effort, but that's the only way it's going to happen.. there are no shortcuts). Try to find people who inspire and motivate you, and avoid those that bring you down and sabotage you. And, of course, don't self-sabotage.. that's the biggest trap. Many people are their own worst enemies. Try to find the wise course of action and actually follow through.
I could go on, but this post is way too long already. Hope some of it helped...
I'm sorry that you're in pain. When I was your age I felt the same way a lot of the time.
Tinder is superficial bullshit. Your lack of matches there isn't significant, and what you see there are often false images. Those people aren't as accomplished or handsome/pretty as they appear there.
I don't have any magic words to tell you, but it does get better for almost everyone going through what you are going through.
I find that I feel much better if I get out and walk. Finding someone to talk to helps. You could try therapy; the first person you find might not be the right one.
Tinder is superficial bullshit. Your lack of matches there isn't significant, and what you see there are often false images. Those people aren't as accomplished or handsome/pretty as they appear there.
I don't have any magic words to tell you, but it does get better for almost everyone going through what you are going through.
I find that I feel much better if I get out and walk. Finding someone to talk to helps. You could try therapy; the first person you find might not be the right one.
Hit the gym, start investing if you haven't and read more. You're young, it'll come, trust me. When I look back at those years of my life, almost everything I was chasing came to me eventually in a few years, what I wish I did was invest my money, hit the gym and learn more. Honestly, I'd take a gamble and just say going to the gym is enough to not only take your mind off everything but you will meet a lot of people there, develop a lot more confidence and add a few more sun cycles to your life.
Lots of great advice in this thread. I hope you don't get overwhelmed thinking about what and how to apply them to your own life. Just remember that it's better to do something than to do nothing. That you're still considering trying dating apps means that you still have hope. As such, suicide is off the table because it makes the possibility of happiness in this current life 0%. Please don't give up. I'm 25, roughly in the same situation, without a decade of programming and mathematics discipline to show for it. I'm going to keep trying. I even gathered the will to study and put myself into college recently. I was able to apply for healthcare assistance recently too. One step at a time, I'm progressing toward some place better than where I was before. We're not losers. The real losers are the ones who give up before the game ends.
One actionable thing you can do starting tomorrow or when convenient is to start working out. Start with calisthenics and move to lifting weights when you feel comfortable. The most important thing is consistency. You're gonna be doing a lot of work to get to where you want, so you can't stay at the same level of fitness. You need to keep getting stronger, so that your body and mind can handle more and more, so that what were previously mountains become anthills you can walk right over.
One actionable thing you can do starting tomorrow or when convenient is to start working out. Start with calisthenics and move to lifting weights when you feel comfortable. The most important thing is consistency. You're gonna be doing a lot of work to get to where you want, so you can't stay at the same level of fitness. You need to keep getting stronger, so that your body and mind can handle more and more, so that what were previously mountains become anthills you can walk right over.
Listen mate. I had a tinder profile for a bit too. I would have looked like one of those well rounded people but my life was a mess. I learnt it was the same for most other people with tinder profiles.
When I finished school aged 16 (UK) there were kids who went and got well paying jobs at the local factories. The rest of us who stayed in education were well jealous of them - they were living life like proper adults with all the freedom and a good lifestyle, while we felt a bit trapped and stuck. As we got older we were scraping by on bar and care jobs to pay for rooms in a shared house to study etc while those kids who left aged 16 were getting a mortgage on a nice house and thinking about getting married and starting a family.
Except years later having pushed myself through education and up the career ladder as much as I could tolerate before taking the decision to plateau in a job for a bit, my lifestyle is a lot better than what I'd been jealous of, but those kids who had those jobs aged 16 are still doing the same job and looking a bit trapped.
This isn't a story about how to live your life or what the best career is. All of the paths me and my schoolmates took were valid. What I am trying to say that progress through life isn't linear, and we all end up going through these cycles of change-stagnation-change-stagnation at different rates to everyone around us.
When I finished school aged 16 (UK) there were kids who went and got well paying jobs at the local factories. The rest of us who stayed in education were well jealous of them - they were living life like proper adults with all the freedom and a good lifestyle, while we felt a bit trapped and stuck. As we got older we were scraping by on bar and care jobs to pay for rooms in a shared house to study etc while those kids who left aged 16 were getting a mortgage on a nice house and thinking about getting married and starting a family.
Except years later having pushed myself through education and up the career ladder as much as I could tolerate before taking the decision to plateau in a job for a bit, my lifestyle is a lot better than what I'd been jealous of, but those kids who had those jobs aged 16 are still doing the same job and looking a bit trapped.
This isn't a story about how to live your life or what the best career is. All of the paths me and my schoolmates took were valid. What I am trying to say that progress through life isn't linear, and we all end up going through these cycles of change-stagnation-change-stagnation at different rates to everyone around us.
You do not need many friends in life: one or two is just great. I hope this is your case. If not you should contact an acquaintance, supposedly someone you met during your studies. It seems they are not too far behind for you. Propose to meet for doing anything that is permitted where you live in these pandemic times. Do not put yourself in a situation where you'd feel too uncomfortable, but definitely this requires an explicit effort. I am pretty sure you can think of someone you met in college with the same mindset as you, who hopefully is not too far from where you leave.
If you need to met new people, because you are in a place where you do not know anybody, I would suggest taking part to an art club - pick whatever art. People there tend to be more inclusive than say in a sport club. You'll find they think completely differently than you.
As for social media and online news, you are well aware they are very bad for the mood. As for sex, it is complicated for everyone. Those who have a lot of it aren't necessarily much happier or satisfied.
If my example may help you: I never had many friends (not even talking of girlfriends). I married at 30-something the sister of a friend I met in college. We are not on social media, we are only moderately social in real life, we do not travel, we often laugh. I am happy as much as I could be.
If you need to met new people, because you are in a place where you do not know anybody, I would suggest taking part to an art club - pick whatever art. People there tend to be more inclusive than say in a sport club. You'll find they think completely differently than you.
As for social media and online news, you are well aware they are very bad for the mood. As for sex, it is complicated for everyone. Those who have a lot of it aren't necessarily much happier or satisfied.
If my example may help you: I never had many friends (not even talking of girlfriends). I married at 30-something the sister of a friend I met in college. We are not on social media, we are only moderately social in real life, we do not travel, we often laugh. I am happy as much as I could be.
At your age I was likely in a worse space than you, but with many of the same attributes. I was very lonely, but also struggling with paranoid schizophrenia. Was convinced that I'd basically sentenced myself to be a 'forever alone' virgin for the rest of my miserable life. By my mid-twenties, I'd been committed to mental hospital twice. To say I felt like an outcast would be an understatement.
However, I was able to turn the ship around, and today (mid-thirties) I'm happily married with three beautiful kids. Have a job that I look forward to every day (lead dev for a software product in the banking sector). Just bought our first house last year.
All this is to say, don't lose hope just yet. You're still young and have plenty of opportunities to change the course of your life. Your knowledge of math and IT means you have ample opportunity for finding a lucrative and enjoyable career. If you want a girlfriend, that can also be accomplished, but she's not going to fall out of the sky and into your lap. You will likely need to make a real and persistent effort. And at the same time, as low as you feel now, there is always a deeper rock bottom that you can hit, if you simply let things progress in the wrong direction.
However, I was able to turn the ship around, and today (mid-thirties) I'm happily married with three beautiful kids. Have a job that I look forward to every day (lead dev for a software product in the banking sector). Just bought our first house last year.
All this is to say, don't lose hope just yet. You're still young and have plenty of opportunities to change the course of your life. Your knowledge of math and IT means you have ample opportunity for finding a lucrative and enjoyable career. If you want a girlfriend, that can also be accomplished, but she's not going to fall out of the sky and into your lap. You will likely need to make a real and persistent effort. And at the same time, as low as you feel now, there is always a deeper rock bottom that you can hit, if you simply let things progress in the wrong direction.
My only advise is to stay the hell away from social media and dating apps. This is by far the most counterproductive measure you could take. While I'm not entirely sure what were the creators' goals for each one, the end result is that they are means for people to fuel their ego and all the post, pictures, videos, likes and comments are just a scaled down version of Dan Bilzerian's social media accounts: it's all a play and the reality has nothing to do with what is being shown. Let's dial the clock back around 20 years when I was in school - I had a good amount of classmates who had rich parents - getting driven to school in brand new G-wagons with personal drivers, 1000+ euro phones while the average monthly salary was around 400 and all that. I aknowledged that we had different social status but that wasn't the reason why I kept a distance from all of them. The truth is there was not a single topic that you could discuss with them. And 20 years later one of two things have happened: they have inherited the leftover from their parents' businesses or their parents can no longer support their lifestyle(kind of a lot to expect from your parents when they are retired). As far as they go however, there is still absolutely nothing to talk to them about.
I'm not going to lie, my life for the past 4 years hasn't been particularly easy, largely due to family issues, but generally it turned out alright, Certainly exceeded my expectations from when I was your age.
I suppose I was always a bit antisocial - never really enjoyed interacting with others, I preferred reading/listening as opposed to writing/talking. That said, the pandemic did cut off pretty much all interactions I had with others and that started getting to me a bit. And I guess it was luck but around july last year I was presented with an opportunity to get a dog. And after meeting the puppy it was settled and it's been one of the best descisions I've ever made and I suggest you give that a thought as well and consider a breed that is known for their intelligence. It's a double edged blade, since clever dogs tend to be a lot more hyperactive and require more attention, it's absolutely astonishing to watch them evaluate and adapt to complex situations. "How the hell did you figure that one out" becomes the norm. At this point I have absolutely no desire to interact with people.
Also as others pointed out - gym.
I'm not going to lie, my life for the past 4 years hasn't been particularly easy, largely due to family issues, but generally it turned out alright, Certainly exceeded my expectations from when I was your age.
I suppose I was always a bit antisocial - never really enjoyed interacting with others, I preferred reading/listening as opposed to writing/talking. That said, the pandemic did cut off pretty much all interactions I had with others and that started getting to me a bit. And I guess it was luck but around july last year I was presented with an opportunity to get a dog. And after meeting the puppy it was settled and it's been one of the best descisions I've ever made and I suggest you give that a thought as well and consider a breed that is known for their intelligence. It's a double edged blade, since clever dogs tend to be a lot more hyperactive and require more attention, it's absolutely astonishing to watch them evaluate and adapt to complex situations. "How the hell did you figure that one out" becomes the norm. At this point I have absolutely no desire to interact with people.
Also as others pointed out - gym.
Hi, great idea to reach out here. There are lots of people that can relate to your situation, including me.
Being a bit socially outcast at 23 is emotionally hard, and I know it sux, but it's not as bad as it might seem. You still are young, and if that's not what you want from life, there is hope for things to change.
You have spent the last decade on solo interests, so you haven't learned some of your peers' social skills. That's okay, you can learn them.
The problem is that most of the people around you will be interacting in a way that you don't understand. Some people you might think are a bit lower IQ will be performing on a social level that you might not understand yet.
The way to get there is much like the way you got there with math and programming. You had an interest, and you practiced. You probably started very frustratedly, but you kept going because it was fun. You have to try this with people. It is fun to meet new people and talk with them. One problem is there are all these social rules and conventions that you are going to get wrong. The problem with getting things wrong in a social setting is that we feel rejected when it happens. Learning to recover from that is the key. It's not going to be easy when you are feeling depressed. Talking to a therapist would help if you can afford it. Develop some strategies to deal with this, and you will thrive. Most people don't care if you are awkward. They want friends just as much as you do.
I'd advise that you don't try to start with romantic relationships right away. Starting with something a little more shallow might help. Just hanging out with people will help, and there is less emotional risk.
I'd try to find something that forces you to interact with people. Find a group or club to join—something that you feel bad about not attending. Also, feel free to switch groups if you don't like it. After a year or so, you are going to feel much better dealing with people.
Also, don't feel bad about Tinder. It's not a good option. You are far better off meeting people through shared interests. You are also going to be in a great place in a few years. You will earn more than most and have less baggage from past relationships; you'll be a catch.
You can do this, it can get better, and you have a bright future ahead.
Being a bit socially outcast at 23 is emotionally hard, and I know it sux, but it's not as bad as it might seem. You still are young, and if that's not what you want from life, there is hope for things to change.
You have spent the last decade on solo interests, so you haven't learned some of your peers' social skills. That's okay, you can learn them.
The problem is that most of the people around you will be interacting in a way that you don't understand. Some people you might think are a bit lower IQ will be performing on a social level that you might not understand yet.
The way to get there is much like the way you got there with math and programming. You had an interest, and you practiced. You probably started very frustratedly, but you kept going because it was fun. You have to try this with people. It is fun to meet new people and talk with them. One problem is there are all these social rules and conventions that you are going to get wrong. The problem with getting things wrong in a social setting is that we feel rejected when it happens. Learning to recover from that is the key. It's not going to be easy when you are feeling depressed. Talking to a therapist would help if you can afford it. Develop some strategies to deal with this, and you will thrive. Most people don't care if you are awkward. They want friends just as much as you do.
I'd advise that you don't try to start with romantic relationships right away. Starting with something a little more shallow might help. Just hanging out with people will help, and there is less emotional risk.
I'd try to find something that forces you to interact with people. Find a group or club to join—something that you feel bad about not attending. Also, feel free to switch groups if you don't like it. After a year or so, you are going to feel much better dealing with people.
Also, don't feel bad about Tinder. It's not a good option. You are far better off meeting people through shared interests. You are also going to be in a great place in a few years. You will earn more than most and have less baggage from past relationships; you'll be a catch.
You can do this, it can get better, and you have a bright future ahead.
You're not a loser because Tinder didn't work out; you're one of millions who find 'online socializing' to be inadequate by itself. Go meet people. It sounds like this was hard for you to admit, but for some people this is a regular conversation between them and friends (and in some cases, any stranger who will listen). So forget the embarrassment & try to become more comfortable talking about it.
A few ideas:
1) Set a realistic goal. Having a purpose helps maintain your focus from drifting into negative thoughts.
2) Exercise. The mind and body are connected. If you’re having trouble changing your mind, try changing your body and diet and sometimes your mind will follow.
3) Speak to a therapist. Many are free or discounted for certain income brackets and can help you work through deeper issues like the ones you’re dealing with.
4) Meditate. Spending silent time with yourself focusing on letting your thoughts come and go might help illuminate what you want out of life or how to get unstuck.
5) Psychedelics. Some organizations like maps.org offer MDMA-assisted therapy that’s shown highly promising results. Other substances like Ketamine, Psilocybin and Ayahuasca when taken in a group or therapeutic setting can help to physically rewire parts of the brain or illuminate subconscious thoughts and patterns.
6) Try authentic relating. There are lots of groups and events that teach how to relate to yourself and others in a way that creates deeper connections. If you’re feeling isolated or disconnected it gives you a procedure for fixing that.
Life is not meant to be devoid of suffering or challenges. I hope you can find a way to move through the tough times with greater ease. And thank you for writing this post, you are not alone in these feelings. You get one life and I hope you’re able to have all the experiences you desire. There’s a huge world out there that you haven’t explored that almost certainly will have some impact on your view on life and the quality of your experience. Thank you again for putting enough value in this community to seek out our collective opinions.
1) Set a realistic goal. Having a purpose helps maintain your focus from drifting into negative thoughts.
2) Exercise. The mind and body are connected. If you’re having trouble changing your mind, try changing your body and diet and sometimes your mind will follow.
3) Speak to a therapist. Many are free or discounted for certain income brackets and can help you work through deeper issues like the ones you’re dealing with.
4) Meditate. Spending silent time with yourself focusing on letting your thoughts come and go might help illuminate what you want out of life or how to get unstuck.
5) Psychedelics. Some organizations like maps.org offer MDMA-assisted therapy that’s shown highly promising results. Other substances like Ketamine, Psilocybin and Ayahuasca when taken in a group or therapeutic setting can help to physically rewire parts of the brain or illuminate subconscious thoughts and patterns.
6) Try authentic relating. There are lots of groups and events that teach how to relate to yourself and others in a way that creates deeper connections. If you’re feeling isolated or disconnected it gives you a procedure for fixing that.
Life is not meant to be devoid of suffering or challenges. I hope you can find a way to move through the tough times with greater ease. And thank you for writing this post, you are not alone in these feelings. You get one life and I hope you’re able to have all the experiences you desire. There’s a huge world out there that you haven’t explored that almost certainly will have some impact on your view on life and the quality of your experience. Thank you again for putting enough value in this community to seek out our collective opinions.
I don't know if this helps you (hope it does), but I won't assume what fixed me has to fix you.
I was in just the same position. I adored programming and built my life and self-esteem around my achievements in coding, but I ended up depressed and feeling isolated. My health was also not ideal and I could see issues on the horizon stemming from a poor diet and sitting hunched up in front of a monitor for most of my working hours.
Upon recommendations of family, I joined a gym. I freaking hated it and felt like a fish out of water. I lasted about 10 days and then bailed out.
My small stint trying a gym had left me with a pair of running shoes. So I decided I would try and go out and run early on a Sunday morning around the block near my house. This way if I needed to stop and walk I could do so. Turns out I did in fact stop and walk (quite early on), but I managed to get around the block twice.
I then tried again the next day, and it was much of the same, however something magical happened. My very poor attempt at running became gamified. I hit the internet and started reading up on how to get better at running and then all of a sudden a whole world opened up around the technicalities of running. After just a week or two I started to see improvement from tracking on smart watch. Weeks then turned into months and I started to improve, my weight started to drop and I felt my confidence build. For me personally running worked great for my depression.
It then all escalated from there. I did a park run, met other runners and started to become part of a running community. Now I have so many friends through running its unreal. My career choice is also paying off hugely as WFH as a developer means I get to really manage my time around running out on the trials.
I was in just the same position. I adored programming and built my life and self-esteem around my achievements in coding, but I ended up depressed and feeling isolated. My health was also not ideal and I could see issues on the horizon stemming from a poor diet and sitting hunched up in front of a monitor for most of my working hours.
Upon recommendations of family, I joined a gym. I freaking hated it and felt like a fish out of water. I lasted about 10 days and then bailed out.
My small stint trying a gym had left me with a pair of running shoes. So I decided I would try and go out and run early on a Sunday morning around the block near my house. This way if I needed to stop and walk I could do so. Turns out I did in fact stop and walk (quite early on), but I managed to get around the block twice.
I then tried again the next day, and it was much of the same, however something magical happened. My very poor attempt at running became gamified. I hit the internet and started reading up on how to get better at running and then all of a sudden a whole world opened up around the technicalities of running. After just a week or two I started to see improvement from tracking on smart watch. Weeks then turned into months and I started to improve, my weight started to drop and I felt my confidence build. For me personally running worked great for my depression.
It then all escalated from there. I did a park run, met other runners and started to become part of a running community. Now I have so many friends through running its unreal. My career choice is also paying off hugely as WFH as a developer means I get to really manage my time around running out on the trials.
See, like many others, you wasted the time that is perfect for developing social skills on computers. You might have already realized the success doesn’t come from knowing mathematics or functional programming. Bill Gates wasn’t a social outcast, he’s a smooth talker.
You have to catch up and develop confidence. Pick up a hobby that doesn’t involve technology. Martial arts worked great for me, but you can try anything.
You have to catch up and develop confidence. Pick up a hobby that doesn’t involve technology. Martial arts worked great for me, but you can try anything.
So first off please check in with a Doctor, particularly if you’re feeling desperate enough to kill yourself. You can get help for depression.
If things are really bleak please reach out to people like: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
You can also try to find a therapist, talking through these feelings with someone who can talk back and get a fuller context could be very helpful.
I’m 39. Six weeks ago I had a freak heart attack caused by a blood clot that spontaneously appeared in one of the main arteries of my heart with seemingly no underlying cause. You’d think nearly dying would give you some special insight into life and what to do about it. But it doesn’t. It’s scary, it’s really depressing and it gives you a taste of what your death might eventually be like.
I can’t presume to give you life advice but I wanted you to know that other people are out here suffering too. Be kind to yourself, don’t let the experience make you bitter and good luck.
If things are really bleak please reach out to people like: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
You can also try to find a therapist, talking through these feelings with someone who can talk back and get a fuller context could be very helpful.
I’m 39. Six weeks ago I had a freak heart attack caused by a blood clot that spontaneously appeared in one of the main arteries of my heart with seemingly no underlying cause. You’d think nearly dying would give you some special insight into life and what to do about it. But it doesn’t. It’s scary, it’s really depressing and it gives you a taste of what your death might eventually be like.
I can’t presume to give you life advice but I wanted you to know that other people are out here suffering too. Be kind to yourself, don’t let the experience make you bitter and good luck.
Many different thoughts on the subject.
Some of my thoughts:
1. It's been interesting few months with COVID and many people have been dealing with difficult situations all round, especially around mental health. We've all had more time to reflect how are lives are and the gaps. Know that social media and especially Tinder amplify all these gaps. Also know that Tinder is gamed. Assume many levels of exaggeration and outright lies from whatever pictures and profiles you are seeing. I'm not saying that everything you are seeing is a lie but understand it's not the full picture. So I would suggest stop using the App and others like it. Also, just accept that this is a totally exceptional year and you are not alone with what you are going through.
2. Welcome to the club. We all feel like failures in our life's at some point or another. It doesn't escape anyone regardless of how rich we are or how many friends we have, etc. It comes to us all at one point or another. Accept this for what it is - a desire and a need to change your current self.
3. You have a sense of what would make you more happier. More social interactions. Traveling. Doing more activities with people. Developing more friendships or deeper friendships. Lots of great thoughts on how to do these things. So take baby steps and start doing (exercise, working out, joining activities with others, etc.). Don't throw away what gives you joy in terms of programming and math. Lots of us try to figure out what it is that gives us that joy and you're lucky, you know already. Keep at it but start to take time away from it so you can do other activities. Accept that the feedback loop for going outside your comfort zone isn't going to be quick. Accept that it will take time for you to make changes in your life and it is hard. It's weeks and months and years process. The best thing is you are young and have the time to do it.
Some of my thoughts:
1. It's been interesting few months with COVID and many people have been dealing with difficult situations all round, especially around mental health. We've all had more time to reflect how are lives are and the gaps. Know that social media and especially Tinder amplify all these gaps. Also know that Tinder is gamed. Assume many levels of exaggeration and outright lies from whatever pictures and profiles you are seeing. I'm not saying that everything you are seeing is a lie but understand it's not the full picture. So I would suggest stop using the App and others like it. Also, just accept that this is a totally exceptional year and you are not alone with what you are going through.
2. Welcome to the club. We all feel like failures in our life's at some point or another. It doesn't escape anyone regardless of how rich we are or how many friends we have, etc. It comes to us all at one point or another. Accept this for what it is - a desire and a need to change your current self.
3. You have a sense of what would make you more happier. More social interactions. Traveling. Doing more activities with people. Developing more friendships or deeper friendships. Lots of great thoughts on how to do these things. So take baby steps and start doing (exercise, working out, joining activities with others, etc.). Don't throw away what gives you joy in terms of programming and math. Lots of us try to figure out what it is that gives us that joy and you're lucky, you know already. Keep at it but start to take time away from it so you can do other activities. Accept that the feedback loop for going outside your comfort zone isn't going to be quick. Accept that it will take time for you to make changes in your life and it is hard. It's weeks and months and years process. The best thing is you are young and have the time to do it.
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20 or so years ago I was around your age.
I'd just been told that the job I'd moved to that city for didn't exist. They had thought twice about it after last time we talked but they hadn't bothered telling me.
I got around $50 in the hand for the hassle.
I was almost broke and in a bad condition mentally. At one point I had to cross a rather large bridge with significant potential for jumping as I walked several kilometers back after looking for work.
I remember being afraid that I would jump. I was praying but inside I felt so worthless because of past mistakes that I hardly believed it had any effect so I ended up urging $DEITY to listen to my nice Grandma at least because I knew she was praying for us.
Point is not if it worked or not but that I was utterly hopeless.
My most realistic expectation about the future was that I could hopefully avoid doing anything criminally wrong or very morally wrong.
Boy was I wrong.
Many people are happy for me today and my life is awesome.
Was my life really that bad back then? Maybe not, but depression messes with ones brain.
I'd just been told that the job I'd moved to that city for didn't exist. They had thought twice about it after last time we talked but they hadn't bothered telling me.
I got around $50 in the hand for the hassle.
I was almost broke and in a bad condition mentally. At one point I had to cross a rather large bridge with significant potential for jumping as I walked several kilometers back after looking for work.
I remember being afraid that I would jump. I was praying but inside I felt so worthless because of past mistakes that I hardly believed it had any effect so I ended up urging $DEITY to listen to my nice Grandma at least because I knew she was praying for us.
Point is not if it worked or not but that I was utterly hopeless.
My most realistic expectation about the future was that I could hopefully avoid doing anything criminally wrong or very morally wrong.
Boy was I wrong.
Many people are happy for me today and my life is awesome.
Was my life really that bad back then? Maybe not, but depression messes with ones brain.
I was some place similar at 22. I did not socialize a lot, introverted, very few romantic relationships, very low self esteem (outside tech), depressed.
The Dotcom bubble exploded and there weren't any jobs. I still had a year of university to complete and felt burnt out.
I had a bit of money aside, and bought a plane ticket to Europe. I knew nothing of the world. Backpacked 3 months, stayed in youth hostels, for lost a lot, learning as I went. Completely changed my life.
In 2010, after a brutal separation, went six weeks in the middle East. Hitchhiked in Syria (pre-war), slept in the desert. Came back home, quit my job, went freelance, and got into new adventures.
Moral of the story, I guess, is that we are lucky to have skills very much in demand. Take risks, go have fun, there will be work when you get back and you'll land on your feet.
Alternatively, of you don't like gyms, try an indoor rock climbing class. Lots of geeks, but also lots of other people, and no pressure to perform or look good.
The Dotcom bubble exploded and there weren't any jobs. I still had a year of university to complete and felt burnt out.
I had a bit of money aside, and bought a plane ticket to Europe. I knew nothing of the world. Backpacked 3 months, stayed in youth hostels, for lost a lot, learning as I went. Completely changed my life.
In 2010, after a brutal separation, went six weeks in the middle East. Hitchhiked in Syria (pre-war), slept in the desert. Came back home, quit my job, went freelance, and got into new adventures.
Moral of the story, I guess, is that we are lucky to have skills very much in demand. Take risks, go have fun, there will be work when you get back and you'll land on your feet.
Alternatively, of you don't like gyms, try an indoor rock climbing class. Lots of geeks, but also lots of other people, and no pressure to perform or look good.
Some of my past experience that helped me overcome loneliness associated with programming:
People
- Friendship is a two-way street. Waiting passively is not the way to go. Don't be across of rejection. Someone has to initiate the process and there's nothing wrong with the person being you. Just imagine it is equally hard for others to start taking to you.
- Acquaintance conversion can be a thing. Do you hang out at the same cafe / restaurant often? Start talking more to people there, can be either the staff or the customers. If you are afraid, try with those that you have seen for a few times and more friendly looking. You might end up with a good friend or the worst case some discount or freebie.
Hobby beyond programming
- I think it's essential to have another hobby apart from programming, which involves going outside the room and seeing people. We need to feel the society in some way after being alone for too long. In my case I really enjoyed walking, and it doesn't have to be together with others. Just walk in some densely populated areas such as malls or CBD or tourist area. You will feel more lifted when you are physically close to other people. It's also a good chance to initiate conversations.
- Finding a hobby group. Other hobby suggestions include weight lifting or photography. Try finding a local group for such activities to avoid the feeling of loneliness. Meetup.com, Facebook, Instagram are some of the avenues.
Goal
- Try to set goals for yourself if you have lost purpose in life. It can be something challenging or silly. As with programming, you can be quantitative in the goals. For example, eating healthy for a month, saving 100k in one year. Personally I set a goal of retiring at 35 and it's doing wonders to my motivation to work and expanding my income streams.
(I might add more as I recall them)
People
- Friendship is a two-way street. Waiting passively is not the way to go. Don't be across of rejection. Someone has to initiate the process and there's nothing wrong with the person being you. Just imagine it is equally hard for others to start taking to you.
- Acquaintance conversion can be a thing. Do you hang out at the same cafe / restaurant often? Start talking more to people there, can be either the staff or the customers. If you are afraid, try with those that you have seen for a few times and more friendly looking. You might end up with a good friend or the worst case some discount or freebie.
Hobby beyond programming
- I think it's essential to have another hobby apart from programming, which involves going outside the room and seeing people. We need to feel the society in some way after being alone for too long. In my case I really enjoyed walking, and it doesn't have to be together with others. Just walk in some densely populated areas such as malls or CBD or tourist area. You will feel more lifted when you are physically close to other people. It's also a good chance to initiate conversations.
- Finding a hobby group. Other hobby suggestions include weight lifting or photography. Try finding a local group for such activities to avoid the feeling of loneliness. Meetup.com, Facebook, Instagram are some of the avenues.
Goal
- Try to set goals for yourself if you have lost purpose in life. It can be something challenging or silly. As with programming, you can be quantitative in the goals. For example, eating healthy for a month, saving 100k in one year. Personally I set a goal of retiring at 35 and it's doing wonders to my motivation to work and expanding my income streams.
(I might add more as I recall them)
Hey OP. I don’t know you but I want to tell you I love you, I understand the feelings and pain. You are important so please don’t harm yourself. Things DO get better. Trust me on this, I had severe depression from late teens to early twenties, and things turned around after 24. I was also VERY late to the medication game, I was against anti depressants for the longest time because “didn’t want to mess with my brain,” I can’t tell you how wrong I was on that one.
I also did brain scans, therapy and hormone testing and found out I had low testosterone due to the stress I would put myself under, so I worked with my doctor (had to find the right one who I trusted and was competent in these matters), and we got a plan to improve my levels.
I did it all on my own and life turned around 180. I got everything I wanted, which if you’re anything like me is probably also what you want too.
Trust me you can do this OP, just hang in there.
I also did brain scans, therapy and hormone testing and found out I had low testosterone due to the stress I would put myself under, so I worked with my doctor (had to find the right one who I trusted and was competent in these matters), and we got a plan to improve my levels.
I did it all on my own and life turned around 180. I got everything I wanted, which if you’re anything like me is probably also what you want too.
Trust me you can do this OP, just hang in there.
> I was against anti depressants for the longest time because “didn’t want to mess with my brain,” I can’t tell you how wrong I was on that one.
I’m not anti medication, but wary. I was thrown into that game relatively young. It’s not fun when a decade later you find out that the developer of medications you were put on are being sued because they lied about potential long term effects to sell a little more.
I’m not anti medication, but wary. I was thrown into that game relatively young. It’s not fun when a decade later you find out that the developer of medications you were put on are being sued because they lied about potential long term effects to sell a little more.
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Late to this, but to be sure: I have learned for myself that God is real, cares, life has a purpose and extends before & after this mortality, questions have answers, each person including you is of infinite worth, and you never truly have to be alone. If we learn and make good choices, things can and will be very good, better than now.
All real best wishes.
ps: your worth definitely does not depend on comparisons with what seems popular. There are permanent truths one can grasp and keep, for peace & stability amid the hard times that we all can have; even joy.
pps: I thought a great deal about how to do dating better, before my 2nd marriage. Some people here have good comments (avoid tinder, meet people volunteering and in real life, etc). I wrote more things I learned on my web site (in profile). eHarmony was better than most AFAIK, but still has pros/cons.
All real best wishes.
ps: your worth definitely does not depend on comparisons with what seems popular. There are permanent truths one can grasp and keep, for peace & stability amid the hard times that we all can have; even joy.
pps: I thought a great deal about how to do dating better, before my 2nd marriage. Some people here have good comments (avoid tinder, meet people volunteering and in real life, etc). I wrote more things I learned on my web site (in profile). eHarmony was better than most AFAIK, but still has pros/cons.
I have had a very rough 2 years. The worst of my life. I'm in my late 30s. 2009 was also a very difficult year. The summer of 2004 was the first truly difficult time of my adult life. The main thing all of these have in common is that I was cut off in a significant way from friends and family.
One of the defining characteristics of humanity is that we need love. We need love like trees need the sun. We need to know that when everything else in the world is going to shit, someone is there to hold us and tell us that they'll never leave us. And you need as many of these people in your life as possible.
Everyone around you needs this. Most of them don't get enough of it. Find the people around you who are interested in giving that to you, and receiving it from you. And spend as much time as possible with them.
One of the defining characteristics of humanity is that we need love. We need love like trees need the sun. We need to know that when everything else in the world is going to shit, someone is there to hold us and tell us that they'll never leave us. And you need as many of these people in your life as possible.
Everyone around you needs this. Most of them don't get enough of it. Find the people around you who are interested in giving that to you, and receiving it from you. And spend as much time as possible with them.
You've only "lost in life" upon the nihilistic assumption that this life is all there is. I remember maybe 12 years ago eharmony basically telling me "sorry but we can't help you", rejecting me from their platform after doing the questionnaire.
Judging from Bill Bryson's A Short History of Everything, social ineptness is often a necessary condition for exeptional scientists, etc. We badly need a coherent understanding of life. We have the means to propagate it.
As for me, if I had a "poke of egress" laying around, I might be getting inert myself, but as those are as scarce as meaningful social connections, I reckon I'll have to see things through.
I remember significant personal events occurring in my mid-twenties that radically changed my outlook (perhaps for the better).
Judging from Bill Bryson's A Short History of Everything, social ineptness is often a necessary condition for exeptional scientists, etc. We badly need a coherent understanding of life. We have the means to propagate it.
As for me, if I had a "poke of egress" laying around, I might be getting inert myself, but as those are as scarce as meaningful social connections, I reckon I'll have to see things through.
I remember significant personal events occurring in my mid-twenties that radically changed my outlook (perhaps for the better).
Read the ‘Art of seduction’ then read the books that he talks about. Memorize the stories in that book and learn how to retell them to other people. That alone will make you more interesting.
(If you want to understand the hard problems of human existence, read literature. The royal road to that is to read a literature review, which that book almost is. Pro Tip: If you want to get somebody to do something, get them to read about it.)
It might be more relevant for the needs of middle aged people who are interested in their cohort. (right about now they feel boxed in by the last 40 years of choices they have made and if you can take down the gate they might knock you down on the way out -- it's frightening how easy it is).
Most young people want a lifetime mate (eventually) and that’s a much bigger ask.
(If you want to understand the hard problems of human existence, read literature. The royal road to that is to read a literature review, which that book almost is. Pro Tip: If you want to get somebody to do something, get them to read about it.)
It might be more relevant for the needs of middle aged people who are interested in their cohort. (right about now they feel boxed in by the last 40 years of choices they have made and if you can take down the gate they might knock you down on the way out -- it's frightening how easy it is).
Most young people want a lifetime mate (eventually) and that’s a much bigger ask.
You're clicking 23. There's so much experience out there for you to explore. I don't know which part of the world you live in, but get in touch with the physical world, forget about the digital world for some time.
Forget Tinder and other social media apps, they don't bring joy or reason to live; you get someone to sleep with, and in the morning, it's the same feeling and cycle. Firget those apps. They are trash. You need to be active in the physical world based on your post.
My advice is relocate or get actively involved in charity works, get in touch with the physical world. That's what you need. I know the pandemic has made life more difficult and less physical, but get your shot (for prevention) and get active.
Remain strong, you'll overcome this phase.
Forget Tinder and other social media apps, they don't bring joy or reason to live; you get someone to sleep with, and in the morning, it's the same feeling and cycle. Firget those apps. They are trash. You need to be active in the physical world based on your post.
My advice is relocate or get actively involved in charity works, get in touch with the physical world. That's what you need. I know the pandemic has made life more difficult and less physical, but get your shot (for prevention) and get active.
Remain strong, you'll overcome this phase.
I have a dark joke based on wearing white shoes after labor day. You can't kill yourself if you're under 30 and your mother is still alive.
That said, your 23, which means you have an absolute shit load of time play with. If you have the beginnings of a stable career, even the better.
About romantic relationships. Chasing after it directly generally just leads nowhere. I found it always worked a lot better to just get out, find things to do that you enjoy where there are women around. Learn to talk to women without any agenda. Don't be picky about who either. With every group of women there is a back channel, be nice and respectful and get on the right side of it.
Also helps to also have girl sized room in how your life works.
That said, your 23, which means you have an absolute shit load of time play with. If you have the beginnings of a stable career, even the better.
About romantic relationships. Chasing after it directly generally just leads nowhere. I found it always worked a lot better to just get out, find things to do that you enjoy where there are women around. Learn to talk to women without any agenda. Don't be picky about who either. With every group of women there is a back channel, be nice and respectful and get on the right side of it.
Also helps to also have girl sized room in how your life works.
You are 23. You are not a failure. You have a passion, and a talent, and dedication. You have simply identified an area of your life that you'd like to improve. You might feel like life has passed you by, it has not. 23 is incredibly young, and many people are going through the same things you are. People go through the same ebbs and flows all through their lives. It is natural.
Tinder isn't great, get rid of it for now. Instead, focus on getting out of the house (to the extent you are able during Covid) and doing things that will allow you to meet people. Join a hiking group, take up a sport, join a book club. You will meet people naturally, without the pressure to 'match'.
Tinder isn't great, get rid of it for now. Instead, focus on getting out of the house (to the extent you are able during Covid) and doing things that will allow you to meet people. Join a hiking group, take up a sport, join a book club. You will meet people naturally, without the pressure to 'match'.
The key to finding people is to go meet people. This doesn't even mean changing your lifestyle but simply getting yourself out there. One friend of mine met his future wife at a Scala conference. Another did so at an anime meetup. Another in a local very geeky artists group (twice actually for him). Another in a Japanese class. If your issue is not knowing how to interact socially then go read books like "How to Win Friends & Influence People" and watch how other people interact socially. I knew one guy who did an amazing roast of someone during an event not due to natural talent for humor but due to sheer relentless study of that area.
Start booking cheap private rooms via airbnb in population centers. Check the hosts' listings to see if they offer multiple rooms in the same apt. The more the better. It's like a hostel environment but you can retreat to the privacy of your own room whenever you like. I'm a host and list 3 private bedrooms individually in one of my apts. I've seen friendships randomly occur between guests who would've never met otherwise. My guests can range from medical students doing clinicals and residency interviews to traveling nurses to digital nomads to adventurous 19 yo Europeans.
> a complete failure in life
Best of luck and hang on! So many times I've felt like "a complete failure in life", (and who knows, maybe I am!), but I keep trying!
I've lost a few friends to suicide and can tell you they all had so much potential, and they all put too much emphasis on their failures and didn't have a realistic idea of how much they made the world a better place—even when they were "failing"—because they were trying something new and making mistakes and exploring some of the design space of our universe. If you are feeling so down, I bet you have taken chances in life that didn't pan out, and I thank you, because we need people like you to push the world in new directions. Don't feel bad about any shortcomings you've had. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Sometimes you just need to hang on, let your body and mind catch it's breadth, and you will come back better than ever.
> words of wisdom
After 37 years, I don't think anyone knows anything about anything.
Figuring out what you want is a process and takes time (https://breckyunits.com/what-i-want.html).
I'm a big believer in wearables. Things like FitBits and Levels CGM. So much of our mental moods are tied to what is going on in our bodies. The best psychiatrists in the world will be replaced by $200 of wearables within 20 years.
My life didn't start until I was 34.
The only regrets I have in life were the times I wasn't kind. (Note: by kind I don't mean nice—I've found being part asshole/competitive on the field to be important to do good work).
> "normal"
I've never found trying to be normal to be a stable place for me. You might find that what is important to you is not important to 99.9% of people. So you may need to meet a lot of people before you build up a big enough tribe. Finding constructive subreddits for my interests was helpful for me.
The world needs you! You sound like the type whose big wins will be in the long term!
Best of luck and hang on! So many times I've felt like "a complete failure in life", (and who knows, maybe I am!), but I keep trying!
I've lost a few friends to suicide and can tell you they all had so much potential, and they all put too much emphasis on their failures and didn't have a realistic idea of how much they made the world a better place—even when they were "failing"—because they were trying something new and making mistakes and exploring some of the design space of our universe. If you are feeling so down, I bet you have taken chances in life that didn't pan out, and I thank you, because we need people like you to push the world in new directions. Don't feel bad about any shortcomings you've had. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Sometimes you just need to hang on, let your body and mind catch it's breadth, and you will come back better than ever.
> words of wisdom
After 37 years, I don't think anyone knows anything about anything.
Figuring out what you want is a process and takes time (https://breckyunits.com/what-i-want.html).
I'm a big believer in wearables. Things like FitBits and Levels CGM. So much of our mental moods are tied to what is going on in our bodies. The best psychiatrists in the world will be replaced by $200 of wearables within 20 years.
My life didn't start until I was 34.
The only regrets I have in life were the times I wasn't kind. (Note: by kind I don't mean nice—I've found being part asshole/competitive on the field to be important to do good work).
> "normal"
I've never found trying to be normal to be a stable place for me. You might find that what is important to you is not important to 99.9% of people. So you may need to meet a lot of people before you build up a big enough tribe. Finding constructive subreddits for my interests was helpful for me.
The world needs you! You sound like the type whose big wins will be in the long term!
At 23 you can have some grand projects, but part of being well-rounded is dealing with seemingly insignificant stuff. We all have to come up with our own ideas about where the threshold should be, and it can be lots of trial and error with differing trade-offs.
If you're good at specialized work then you're probably set long term, which far outweighs short-term confirmation. Maybe nobody will ever value you as you do yourself, but if you keep focusing on improving your skills, you can rely on your own valuations to an extent, enough not to get shaken easily anyway.
If you're good at specialized work then you're probably set long term, which far outweighs short-term confirmation. Maybe nobody will ever value you as you do yourself, but if you keep focusing on improving your skills, you can rely on your own valuations to an extent, enough not to get shaken easily anyway.
Not really advice per se, but: none of us has it figured out, most of us are lost and at least somewhat unhappy when we are honest about it. You just have to learn to cope with and embrace this fact, and learn to love the chaos that is life.
oh and stop caring what others are doing, or thinking. You won’t like most of them and that’ll be a two way street.
Life always just has a way of working itself out, don’t let it get to you and certainly don’t take it too seriously.
Find something you really like to do and get lost in it, it helps to not focus on the noise of life. Mine is hiking and flying ultralights.
oh and stop caring what others are doing, or thinking. You won’t like most of them and that’ll be a two way street.
Life always just has a way of working itself out, don’t let it get to you and certainly don’t take it too seriously.
Find something you really like to do and get lost in it, it helps to not focus on the noise of life. Mine is hiking and flying ultralights.
Most people on Tinder live the fakest of lives. They may portray themselves as someone "cool" with pictures of travelling, chilling and doing amazing things but I bet their real lives aren't quite like that. They might have travelled and done a few fun things but they don't really lead zen lives. Remember the motto is to just get women.
My 2c is to stop looking at social media and try to meet people in real life. Increase your connections and expand the network from there. Your loneliness will fade away in a matter of few weeks.
My 2c is to stop looking at social media and try to meet people in real life. Increase your connections and expand the network from there. Your loneliness will fade away in a matter of few weeks.
As another man your age, there's nothing of value to gain on Tinder. It's a meat market and you're viewing carefully crafted advertisements. It's a system that dehumanizes all involved.
My advice is to stop thinking and start doing. Go do something that's actually interesting (to yourself!). Try to keep an open mind for other people and take a "why not?" approach to social activities and talking to people, but the most important thing is to be actually doing something cool.
My advice is to stop thinking and start doing. Go do something that's actually interesting (to yourself!). Try to keep an open mind for other people and take a "why not?" approach to social activities and talking to people, but the most important thing is to be actually doing something cool.
Hey I just wanted to say to watch out with social (FB, Tinder, anywhere people curate their content) as what you see really isn’t reality, people are showing off and it generally makes people feel bad about themselves that isn’t just you. Not to mention dating is hard in itself so no wonder Tinder gives you bad vibes.
I’d focus on getting out a little more with people face to face - try to nurture some good relationships, romance will come don’t rush it.
Be proud of the programming and maths that you love - it’s part of what makes you you.
I’d focus on getting out a little more with people face to face - try to nurture some good relationships, romance will come don’t rush it.
Be proud of the programming and maths that you love - it’s part of what makes you you.
I've been increasingly under the impression that there must be lots of us in this sort of situation (in my friend circle it's 50%).
It's definitely not supposed to be like this, but can't really grasp why.
It might have something to do with a lack of overarching common purpose/leadership. Some react to this by becoming religious, embracing the inborn affinity for magical beliefs ("follow God's voice"), but it would be ironic if I tried it.
In the end it seemingly comes down to every man for himself. Good luck.
It's definitely not supposed to be like this, but can't really grasp why.
It might have something to do with a lack of overarching common purpose/leadership. Some react to this by becoming religious, embracing the inborn affinity for magical beliefs ("follow God's voice"), but it would be ironic if I tried it.
In the end it seemingly comes down to every man for himself. Good luck.
I ran an incubator and I saw future billionaires at their worst. You need a social form of exercise, and a focused technical/industry community to interact with personally. This is neither of those. If you can, pick one old friend to go with you that you wouldn’t mind working with for the next 10 years. You’ll be amazed at how well this can work out for you.
Also. If you’re on Tinder/etc because you’re depressed, just try to find someone nice. Nopeing on popular profiles will boost your chances.
Also. If you’re on Tinder/etc because you’re depressed, just try to find someone nice. Nopeing on popular profiles will boost your chances.
Lot of great response already but I’ll add my perspective from a mid 30’s: in my 20’s I had lot of friends, traveled, had some success on dating sites, and was fundamentally unhappy. I was chasing an overrated idea of a successful life. Nowadays I better know myself and I know I don’t need a typical social life to be happy (I had a great time during lockdown).
In short the only thing you have to solve is to not feel alone, other lifestyle elements are usually overrated.
In short the only thing you have to solve is to not feel alone, other lifestyle elements are usually overrated.
If you think being a loser at 23 is bad, just try to imagine being a loser at 43. You’ve got a lot of good time left, don’t waste it making it worse than it has to be.
I created this account so that I can share my experience.
TLDR: check out Dr. Aziz on YouTube.
I am 40+ and happily married. But it was a long road to happiness. It is easy to suggest things but almost impossible for people to understand where you are coming from.
I was shy in college but then I discovered alcohol, this allowed me to have fake success with opposite sex. When semi drunk I was confident and would start dancing with anyone. That led to a few wonderful nights and friendships. But when not drinking I was nervous wreck around beautiful girls.
And I was hooking up with girls that had nothing in common. There was no way to maintain relationship in long term. And I would have crush on one girl but would be able to talk to her, sober or drunk. I would see her hookup with asshole friends of me. They would describe women they hookup with in such degrading terms that it would literally make me cry.
This is when pick up artist book came out, and I learned about “oneietis”. Basically, I realized I was getting obsessed and it was not healthy. I am not endorsing pick up artist culture, It is ugly. But it helped me get better at being more confident. I joined some shady group of losers like me. But we would push each other to go talk to women, in all kind of places, bars, malls, etc. some of us got really good. Most of us were just simple nerds and they found love of their lives. Some of us were assholes who used these techniques to hookup. It was very sad but I built confidence.
Eventually, I realized they key to be interesting. And to be interesting you need to be interested. I was no longer feeling alone. So I was actually pursuing my interests. I learned Rick climbing, scuba diving, started other hobbies. And I was confident to talk about them. That’s how I met a girl who end up my life partner.
Now I am older but I am still shy. It hinders my work. This is how I discovered Dr. Aziz. His videos help me overcome issues at work. I think he will help overcome social anxiety, so you don’t have to join shady world of the pick up artists.
TLDR: check out Dr. Aziz on YouTube.
I am 40+ and happily married. But it was a long road to happiness. It is easy to suggest things but almost impossible for people to understand where you are coming from.
I was shy in college but then I discovered alcohol, this allowed me to have fake success with opposite sex. When semi drunk I was confident and would start dancing with anyone. That led to a few wonderful nights and friendships. But when not drinking I was nervous wreck around beautiful girls.
And I was hooking up with girls that had nothing in common. There was no way to maintain relationship in long term. And I would have crush on one girl but would be able to talk to her, sober or drunk. I would see her hookup with asshole friends of me. They would describe women they hookup with in such degrading terms that it would literally make me cry.
This is when pick up artist book came out, and I learned about “oneietis”. Basically, I realized I was getting obsessed and it was not healthy. I am not endorsing pick up artist culture, It is ugly. But it helped me get better at being more confident. I joined some shady group of losers like me. But we would push each other to go talk to women, in all kind of places, bars, malls, etc. some of us got really good. Most of us were just simple nerds and they found love of their lives. Some of us were assholes who used these techniques to hookup. It was very sad but I built confidence.
Eventually, I realized they key to be interesting. And to be interesting you need to be interested. I was no longer feeling alone. So I was actually pursuing my interests. I learned Rick climbing, scuba diving, started other hobbies. And I was confident to talk about them. That’s how I met a girl who end up my life partner.
Now I am older but I am still shy. It hinders my work. This is how I discovered Dr. Aziz. His videos help me overcome issues at work. I think he will help overcome social anxiety, so you don’t have to join shady world of the pick up artists.
Most tinder profiles are inactive. The person created a profile long time ago and never logged in the last few years, yet these profiles show up to make you believe so many potential matches are out there.
Start a physical activity in a group with other people and aim to do that 3 times a week. Sport, dancing, etc. Yoga, salsa, tango or other dances for instance, as these are activities that will involve at least as many girls as boys.
Start a physical activity in a group with other people and aim to do that 3 times a week. Sport, dancing, etc. Yoga, salsa, tango or other dances for instance, as these are activities that will involve at least as many girls as boys.
1- cut off social, all of it not just sex-social but also FB, IG, ... just keep messaging stuff
2- get a pet, whichever you like. Birds and dogs are more social but more demanding than cats
3- go do something you enjoy, preferably outdoors and preferably physical (no, not that ^^)
4- treat yourself: clothes, food, games, ...
Others can't really help you, only you can help yourself. This is not encouragement, this is advice.
Others can't really help you, only you can help yourself. This is not encouragement, this is advice.
"Happiness is stopping doing things that make you unhappy"
How much of what you are doing in life is driven by societal conditioning? How much of the loneliness is caused by social custom having convinced you that should not be alone?
There's no easy answers out there, but the first steps usually start with casting off societal expectations and learning to love yourself for who you are and explore what you want to explore in life.
How much of what you are doing in life is driven by societal conditioning? How much of the loneliness is caused by social custom having convinced you that should not be alone?
There's no easy answers out there, but the first steps usually start with casting off societal expectations and learning to love yourself for who you are and explore what you want to explore in life.
Online dating is broken, by design. If it wasn't, and everyone found "soulmates", the business model would make a lot less money than it possibly could.
Focusing on tech for a decade would've given you so much experience and expertise that others of your age couldn't ever compete with.. that's something to ben proud of imo.
I wish you all the best friend, take care
Resist at all costs the urge to withdraw from the world. I can tell you from personal experience it will not end well. Find something new that brings you joy and cultivate it. Try to stay off social media. Read about personal finance. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it can reduce stress, boost self confidence, and taking steps now will bring great returns later in life. I wish you well.
Online, you might have better luck meeting people on Discord servers relevant to your interests, or on tagmap. Also HelloTalk if you are learning a language or teaching one. Twitter can sometimes be fruitful too (but slow going at first) if you find the right follows and don't treat it as a combat zone. Good search queries can be helpful to bootstrap. Unfollow, mute, and block liberally.
What you're experiencing is normal. The good thing about getting older is that you often relax into this stuff a lot more, when it's not so new anymore. Life is long, not always fun, and very rarely clear. Seek out and be around people older than you, even if it's in silence. Oh yeah, and try to study up on meditation- figure out what it really means to you, then do that.
Two books that might help:
Courage to be Disliked - it's helped me put different life problems in perspective.
Mountains Beyond Mountains: The Quest of Dr. Paul Farmer, a Man Who Would Cure the World - This has been on my bookshelf for a long time, I just picked it up recently, looking for meaning after witnessing covid devastation around. Just a couple chapters in, but it is a really inspiring book.
Courage to be Disliked - it's helped me put different life problems in perspective.
Mountains Beyond Mountains: The Quest of Dr. Paul Farmer, a Man Who Would Cure the World - This has been on my bookshelf for a long time, I just picked it up recently, looking for meaning after witnessing covid devastation around. Just a couple chapters in, but it is a really inspiring book.
> "normal", "well-rounded" people in my age are doing on Tinder
Everyone is different and I think you should focus on what makes you happy rather than comparing yourself with random stranger on tinder.
Personally, if I were you, I'd join a meetup and try to meet other people sharing my interests. It's also a great way to meet a partner (through friends of friends).
Everyone is different and I think you should focus on what makes you happy rather than comparing yourself with random stranger on tinder.
Personally, if I were you, I'd join a meetup and try to meet other people sharing my interests. It's also a great way to meet a partner (through friends of friends).
Here's my 2 cents:
* You're only 23. You're just starting a career path and life path now really.
* I know single women who refuse to use Tinder. These women are educated and have good jobs. I'm not saying there is a trend there but you need to realize that there is life outside of dating apps.
* Take life as it comes. You will have lots of challenges but you will get through them all.
* You're only 23. You're just starting a career path and life path now really.
* I know single women who refuse to use Tinder. These women are educated and have good jobs. I'm not saying there is a trend there but you need to realize that there is life outside of dating apps.
* Take life as it comes. You will have lots of challenges but you will get through them all.
Go to a therapist. HN is not the place to seek answers to such questions. The audience here are not experts in these topics.
I didn't get to travel internationally until I was like 26.don't worry about what other people are doing and when
Step 1. Hit the gym. Attitude is everything.
Step 2. Hire someone (preferably a young girl who also uses tinder) to take pictures of you and give you fashion advice. I ended up hiring an actual fashion school graduate :)
Step 3. Make your job fully remote and travel (easy for programmers like us). Learn a new language.
Do these and youre in top 5 percentile easily. Good luck!
Step 2. Hire someone (preferably a young girl who also uses tinder) to take pictures of you and give you fashion advice. I ended up hiring an actual fashion school graduate :)
Step 3. Make your job fully remote and travel (easy for programmers like us). Learn a new language.
Do these and youre in top 5 percentile easily. Good luck!
Hiring a fashion grad is brilliant!
You are not alone in this. I think everyone, including the Beautiful People, have the same sort of feelings, but certain minds have more difficulties in not heeding them. I have found solace in accepting who I am and focusing on what gives my life meaning: don’t fuss about things you can’t change.
First, talk to a trained professional.
https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline might help.
No matter how permanent they feel, feelings are temporary. The short-circuit can and will get fixed.
May you be well.
https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline might help.
No matter how permanent they feel, feelings are temporary. The short-circuit can and will get fixed.
May you be well.
When I was 27 I felt similar in a way to what you do now - I was not excited about sitting at a desk or staring at a screen and didn't want that for the rest of my life.
My biggest advice for you is to not be afraid of your job. There are always more jobs, and given how smart you are, you won't have much problem getting one. Save up a little money ($5k or $10k) and quit your job. DO something entirely different.
I'd only seen snow twice in my life when I showed up at a ski resort to start working there - I got a job as a lift operator (helping people get on the chair lifts). I LOVED it. Outside every day. Super fun (and crazy) people to work with. Virtually no money, but lots of fun.
Years later I became a snowboard instructor, ski patroller, kayak guide and other random things. When I'm low on money I can go back to development, but I try to avoid that if possible ;)
So don't be afraid of your job, and anyone that tells you that you should be isn't really worth listening to.
Make some changes, do something different, see what happens. Life is an adventure, so start having them!
My biggest advice for you is to not be afraid of your job. There are always more jobs, and given how smart you are, you won't have much problem getting one. Save up a little money ($5k or $10k) and quit your job. DO something entirely different.
I'd only seen snow twice in my life when I showed up at a ski resort to start working there - I got a job as a lift operator (helping people get on the chair lifts). I LOVED it. Outside every day. Super fun (and crazy) people to work with. Virtually no money, but lots of fun.
Years later I became a snowboard instructor, ski patroller, kayak guide and other random things. When I'm low on money I can go back to development, but I try to avoid that if possible ;)
So don't be afraid of your job, and anyone that tells you that you should be isn't really worth listening to.
Make some changes, do something different, see what happens. Life is an adventure, so start having them!
The only way to fail life is by ending it too soon. I feel obligated to say that if you’re feeling suicidal that you should contact a hotline or meet with a mental health expert. You might want to meet with an expert regardless as it could help you work on how you see yourself and the world around you.
Normal is a trap. Societal norms are a trap. Don’t worry about what other people your age are doing. Worry about what makes you happy. Period. I’m in my late 30s and I have friends who are still single, friends who are unemployed, and a friend from elementary school who still lives at home with his parents. The thing they all have in common is a positive outlook, an interest in learning, a desire to do the things they enjoy, and to not care what society thinks of them. My single friends travel by themselves because they want to see the world and aren’t going to wait for a partner. My friend who lives with his parents is basically broke and has had a pretty tough life. But he has lots of hobbies and a tiny group of quality friends.
I personally try not to let things get in the way of the stuff I enjoy or want to do. Just before the pandemic I went to a concert alone. By my assessment I was the only person there not with a friend. I had a great time seeing a band I really like and dancing all by myself. Maybe I looked silly, but I don’t care. Plus I likely won’t see any of those people again and I’m not important enough for anyone to remember me anyway.
Maybe look into joining some in person communities related to things you enjoy. Math and computers are fine communities, but branch out. Some of my good friends are actually people I met a decade ago at the now defunct HN NYC meet up. I actually work for one of those people now.
Social situations can be stressful and awkward, but like anything else the more you do it the easier it tends to get. You may not leave every meetup with new contacts but it’s at least a way to have personal interactions and spend some time talking about things you are interested in or are passionate about. But you do have to put yourself out there. Another comment suggested some public speaking programs, do one those to help get over some of the social anxieties.
You don’t sound like a failure in life. It sounds like you are just craving a bit more from yours. I know it’s not easy, but try putting yourself out there by doing some of the things you enjoy. If that list is short, do some hobby experimenting. Take a group painting class, join a bowling league, take a cooking class, learn to surf, etc. You never know what you’ll discover or who you’ll meet along the way.
I’ll help get things started… My email is in my profile. Let’s chat one night or I’ll teach you how to play Settlers of Catan if you've never played.
Edit: spelling fixes
Normal is a trap. Societal norms are a trap. Don’t worry about what other people your age are doing. Worry about what makes you happy. Period. I’m in my late 30s and I have friends who are still single, friends who are unemployed, and a friend from elementary school who still lives at home with his parents. The thing they all have in common is a positive outlook, an interest in learning, a desire to do the things they enjoy, and to not care what society thinks of them. My single friends travel by themselves because they want to see the world and aren’t going to wait for a partner. My friend who lives with his parents is basically broke and has had a pretty tough life. But he has lots of hobbies and a tiny group of quality friends.
I personally try not to let things get in the way of the stuff I enjoy or want to do. Just before the pandemic I went to a concert alone. By my assessment I was the only person there not with a friend. I had a great time seeing a band I really like and dancing all by myself. Maybe I looked silly, but I don’t care. Plus I likely won’t see any of those people again and I’m not important enough for anyone to remember me anyway.
Maybe look into joining some in person communities related to things you enjoy. Math and computers are fine communities, but branch out. Some of my good friends are actually people I met a decade ago at the now defunct HN NYC meet up. I actually work for one of those people now.
Social situations can be stressful and awkward, but like anything else the more you do it the easier it tends to get. You may not leave every meetup with new contacts but it’s at least a way to have personal interactions and spend some time talking about things you are interested in or are passionate about. But you do have to put yourself out there. Another comment suggested some public speaking programs, do one those to help get over some of the social anxieties.
You don’t sound like a failure in life. It sounds like you are just craving a bit more from yours. I know it’s not easy, but try putting yourself out there by doing some of the things you enjoy. If that list is short, do some hobby experimenting. Take a group painting class, join a bowling league, take a cooking class, learn to surf, etc. You never know what you’ll discover or who you’ll meet along the way.
I’ll help get things started… My email is in my profile. Let’s chat one night or I’ll teach you how to play Settlers of Catan if you've never played.
Edit: spelling fixes
> turning 23 years old
So young. Your frontal lobes aren't even done cooking yet. That happens around 25.
Go here:
https://www.selfauthoring.com/
Totally worth it. At the very least do the "Future Authoring" part.
And get the heck off dating sites.
So young. Your frontal lobes aren't even done cooking yet. That happens around 25.
Go here:
https://www.selfauthoring.com/
Totally worth it. At the very least do the "Future Authoring" part.
And get the heck off dating sites.
I don't have any ideas, people are complicated, but that's why there are therapists. Seriously, find a therapist. If you don't like the first one, keep trying. They are worth it to bounce ideas off of. And yes, I have a therapist myself.
Unpopular opinion:
I’ll start by assuming you’re in a first world country as Tinder is a first world dating app.
Drop tinder immediately and forget about dating women from your country. Something happened over the past 50 or so years and first world women’s standards have become unrealistically high. Maybe it was social media, or dating apps, who knows, but the fact is, the majority of them have adopted this “impress me” attitude where they view themselves as a prize, and they expect you to bring everything to the table. Dating them is no longer worth it, and they’re all pining after the top 10% of guys anyway.
But I’m not saying you need to go full MGTOW.
Instead, find a sincere woman from overseas who will appreciate you more than a first world woman ever could, bring her to your country, and marry her. You will both be happy.
I know someone who did this, and they are a very happy and successful couple.
Find a woman who will appreciate the love you have to give.
I’ll start by assuming you’re in a first world country as Tinder is a first world dating app.
Drop tinder immediately and forget about dating women from your country. Something happened over the past 50 or so years and first world women’s standards have become unrealistically high. Maybe it was social media, or dating apps, who knows, but the fact is, the majority of them have adopted this “impress me” attitude where they view themselves as a prize, and they expect you to bring everything to the table. Dating them is no longer worth it, and they’re all pining after the top 10% of guys anyway.
But I’m not saying you need to go full MGTOW.
Instead, find a sincere woman from overseas who will appreciate you more than a first world woman ever could, bring her to your country, and marry her. You will both be happy.
I know someone who did this, and they are a very happy and successful couple.
Find a woman who will appreciate the love you have to give.
> Something happened over the past 50 or so years
That's a huge span of time. I may be incorrect, but I believe many couples in first-world countries have met, married, and lived happily in those 50 years without the need for anyone to aim for a "sincere woman from overseas."
That's a huge span of time. I may be incorrect, but I believe many couples in first-world countries have met, married, and lived happily in those 50 years without the need for anyone to aim for a "sincere woman from overseas."
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion because it is misogynistic garble. I think you should spend less time giving advice and more taking it.
I know the truth can be hard to hear sometimes and it’s easy to resort to labels and name calling.
I’m just suggesting the OP value himself, and find someone who values him. There’s nothing misogynistic about that.
I’m just suggesting the OP value himself, and find someone who values him. There’s nothing misogynistic about that.
Why dismiss booleandilemma as misogynistic ?
My observations do match what he had to say, I estimate that a large number of marriages ( 50-80%)are dysfunctional and when a divorce happens, if you are a man in the first world you are screwed up financially and emotionally _permanently_ . The courts nearly always side with the woman. If young men need advice they need to see realty as it is.
My observations do match what he had to say, I estimate that a large number of marriages ( 50-80%)are dysfunctional and when a divorce happens, if you are a man in the first world you are screwed up financially and emotionally _permanently_ . The courts nearly always side with the woman. If young men need advice they need to see realty as it is.
Shoot me an email and let’s chat. Worse case is you type an email. Check my profile.
Take the advice you get here because I'm quite a bit older than you but have been stuck in the same place as you for so long that there really isn't much of a way out at this point. Don't be like that.
Find a hobby that you're passionate about (not work related). Get laid. Dating apps can work, but need to realize it's about realistic expectations and the numbers, like swipe right on everyone.
hello,
imho ad depression: 1. go get professional help
and imho. what applys to all people 2. meaning in live doesn't come "naturally" to anyone, you have to actively discover & decide what "floats your boat" in live.
for example, there are a lot of different "communities" providing an excuse for certain things - religions, spiritual communities, startups etc. -, but: everybody decides for his/_/her own what to do in live.
in the end you just have a few decades you can shape according to your own ideas ... and this time will pass regardless of your choices :)
cheersv
imho ad depression: 1. go get professional help
and imho. what applys to all people 2. meaning in live doesn't come "naturally" to anyone, you have to actively discover & decide what "floats your boat" in live.
for example, there are a lot of different "communities" providing an excuse for certain things - religions, spiritual communities, startups etc. -, but: everybody decides for his/_/her own what to do in live.
in the end you just have a few decades you can shape according to your own ideas ... and this time will pass regardless of your choices :)
cheersv
Depression is realization that there is a need for change. This could be habits, location or people in your life. Go on vacation, go to nature, move to a new town.. these all worked for me.
I would recommend the book The Power of Myth by J Campbell. It is a good book in the sense it talks about not forgetting the mystery of how we are here.
Don’t know where you are geographically but if you’re in London, I’d be up for getting a drink!
Don't be sad about it it. Once you break out of it, you'd find the way on your own.
Read the Book of Mormon. I was depressed and suicidal. It guided me towards the light.
tinder is mostly filled up with psychologically types. This is a good video on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l2rnvZvao0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l2rnvZvao0
Ok, from the sound of it, a big (the biggest?) source of your unhappiness is the lack of a romantic relationship. I don't have a quick or easy solution to offer, but I do have some personal experience to share and some perspective to offer. Apologies in advance for any graphic descriptions or colorful language that follow.
I was a virgin until 34. In fact, I had never kissed a girl until I met the one who would eventually become my wife, nor had I really ever been on a romantic date with anyone up to that point. She is the only romantic/sexual partner I've ever had (and if I'm very lucky and work hard at it, I hope that will still be true on my deathbed). So if you manage to go on one real date or kiss one person in the next 11 years, you will have beaten me! So that's something you can try to shoot for.
As you can probably imagine, from my late teens all the way to my early thirties, I experienced and accumulated a lot of anguish and unhappiness stemming from the lack of relationship success. But all of that quickly melted away once I got into a relationship. Well, I actually did have pretty severe performance anxiety with my girlfriend/future wife for about a month after our relationship turned physical. But she was amazingly patient with me, and now we have three kids together and (still) a vigorous sex life (people who have young children can tell you that's no small feat). Again, if you manage not to lose your erection the first 30 times you try to have sex with a girl, you will beat me there as well.
Ok, so all this isn't meant as a (very) humble brag about how I turned my pathetic life around and now have a sexy wife and a wonderful life of endless orgasms. I don't have any books or podcasts to offer. Not even a newsletter. The point is that, my life before wasn't actually bad. I was just what used to be called a "late bloomer". But apparently late bloomers are not ok anymore. Now the message in society is that if you aren't humping like mad by 17, then there's something wrong with you, and you're being left behind by all the guys who are drowning in pussy (or gals in dick, or any permutation/combination thereof). That's some grade A bullshit that permeates every facet of American life, from movies to television, to social media, to music, to news, and especially to all those scientific sounding bullshit studies about how many (self reported) partners everyone has bagged by 20/30/40/50 (when actually it's the 60+ folks living in retirement communities that are banging like rabbits and passing out STDs like Halloween candy). All of it is just utter crap of the highest order, but together they create this endless soul-sucking anxiety in our society that we're not getting as much sex as the next guy or gal and therefore represent some kind of a Darwinian dead end not worthy of continued existence. But the truth is, so many relationships are actually quite terrible, in that the people involved really don't care that much about each other and know that the relationships won't last. Yet they get into them out of FOMO or stay in them out of inertia. Yes, they're getting physical pleasure, but there's actually a pretty heavy psychic cost for being in numerous relationships that are disposable or ultimately go nowhere. Not to mention the opportunity costs of being constantly in mediocre to bad relationships and thus missing out on potentially great ones that come along.
So my point is, don't buy into the bullshit narrative on sex that we have all internalized since before puberty. If you don't have a romantic partner, it's not the end of the world. It's just not your time yet. Maybe you're a late bloomer like me. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a lot of good advice of all sorts in this thread, but the best ones are always about working on yourself for your own sake. Once you can find some sense of self satisfaction in really being who you are, then those other relationships will come. I know it sounds like some Kumbaya bullshit, but just because it's trite, doesn't mean it's not true. There's really nothing that kills a social/romantic relationship like a fixation on oneself, whether it be narcissism or self-pity/hatred. When you feel better about yourself, every social interaction will no longer be about your own perceived inadequacies. You'll have the mental bandwidth to really engage with others and to think about and care about who they are and what they have to say. That's how you make real friends and attract the kinds of people that you want to have deep, long-term romantic relationships with.
Good luck, young man. I think there's a good chance your life will turn out alright, if you will take the time to live it. Being in too much of a hurry usually leads to bad outcomes, no matter if it's running, driving, or living. And one last thing, the movie The 40-Year-Old Virgin actually gave me a lot of encouragement when I was a 30-Year-Old virgin. It's pretty funny and well-acted, and while not terribly realistic, it lifted some of the burden of anxiety I was carrying. It made me think that I still had plenty of time.
I was a virgin until 34. In fact, I had never kissed a girl until I met the one who would eventually become my wife, nor had I really ever been on a romantic date with anyone up to that point. She is the only romantic/sexual partner I've ever had (and if I'm very lucky and work hard at it, I hope that will still be true on my deathbed). So if you manage to go on one real date or kiss one person in the next 11 years, you will have beaten me! So that's something you can try to shoot for.
As you can probably imagine, from my late teens all the way to my early thirties, I experienced and accumulated a lot of anguish and unhappiness stemming from the lack of relationship success. But all of that quickly melted away once I got into a relationship. Well, I actually did have pretty severe performance anxiety with my girlfriend/future wife for about a month after our relationship turned physical. But she was amazingly patient with me, and now we have three kids together and (still) a vigorous sex life (people who have young children can tell you that's no small feat). Again, if you manage not to lose your erection the first 30 times you try to have sex with a girl, you will beat me there as well.
Ok, so all this isn't meant as a (very) humble brag about how I turned my pathetic life around and now have a sexy wife and a wonderful life of endless orgasms. I don't have any books or podcasts to offer. Not even a newsletter. The point is that, my life before wasn't actually bad. I was just what used to be called a "late bloomer". But apparently late bloomers are not ok anymore. Now the message in society is that if you aren't humping like mad by 17, then there's something wrong with you, and you're being left behind by all the guys who are drowning in pussy (or gals in dick, or any permutation/combination thereof). That's some grade A bullshit that permeates every facet of American life, from movies to television, to social media, to music, to news, and especially to all those scientific sounding bullshit studies about how many (self reported) partners everyone has bagged by 20/30/40/50 (when actually it's the 60+ folks living in retirement communities that are banging like rabbits and passing out STDs like Halloween candy). All of it is just utter crap of the highest order, but together they create this endless soul-sucking anxiety in our society that we're not getting as much sex as the next guy or gal and therefore represent some kind of a Darwinian dead end not worthy of continued existence. But the truth is, so many relationships are actually quite terrible, in that the people involved really don't care that much about each other and know that the relationships won't last. Yet they get into them out of FOMO or stay in them out of inertia. Yes, they're getting physical pleasure, but there's actually a pretty heavy psychic cost for being in numerous relationships that are disposable or ultimately go nowhere. Not to mention the opportunity costs of being constantly in mediocre to bad relationships and thus missing out on potentially great ones that come along.
So my point is, don't buy into the bullshit narrative on sex that we have all internalized since before puberty. If you don't have a romantic partner, it's not the end of the world. It's just not your time yet. Maybe you're a late bloomer like me. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a lot of good advice of all sorts in this thread, but the best ones are always about working on yourself for your own sake. Once you can find some sense of self satisfaction in really being who you are, then those other relationships will come. I know it sounds like some Kumbaya bullshit, but just because it's trite, doesn't mean it's not true. There's really nothing that kills a social/romantic relationship like a fixation on oneself, whether it be narcissism or self-pity/hatred. When you feel better about yourself, every social interaction will no longer be about your own perceived inadequacies. You'll have the mental bandwidth to really engage with others and to think about and care about who they are and what they have to say. That's how you make real friends and attract the kinds of people that you want to have deep, long-term romantic relationships with.
Good luck, young man. I think there's a good chance your life will turn out alright, if you will take the time to live it. Being in too much of a hurry usually leads to bad outcomes, no matter if it's running, driving, or living. And one last thing, the movie The 40-Year-Old Virgin actually gave me a lot of encouragement when I was a 30-Year-Old virgin. It's pretty funny and well-acted, and while not terribly realistic, it lifted some of the burden of anxiety I was carrying. It made me think that I still had plenty of time.
You haven’t demonstrated very well that you’re a complete failure in life! You appear to have lived a surprisingly productive life for someone so young, and I see no evidence of the extreme sociopathic behavior I would have to see in order to conclude that someone was a failure. And few of us have it together at 23.
You obviously do seem to be depressed, and it wouldn’t hurt to seek professional or clerical help for that.
As far as what people put on social media, a huge percentage of it, often all of it, is fiction. Taking literally what people say on their tinder profiles will not yield a realistic assessment of their actual lives.
I dealt with many of these issues and might be able to help a bit. Feel free to call me at (425) 260-5292 (Seattle time) or email me at the address in my profile.
You obviously do seem to be depressed, and it wouldn’t hurt to seek professional or clerical help for that.
As far as what people put on social media, a huge percentage of it, often all of it, is fiction. Taking literally what people say on their tinder profiles will not yield a realistic assessment of their actual lives.
I dealt with many of these issues and might be able to help a bit. Feel free to call me at (425) 260-5292 (Seattle time) or email me at the address in my profile.
Hello from the Himalayas. I am Sumit and I talk about mental issues openly. I am 37 years old now and I have lost more than half a decade to mental issues. I am only slowly crawling out of my own issues, it has taken me a lot of time.
The first thing I want to suggest is say to yourself "This is OK, this is part of my life, I will be fine eventually". Do not fear the time it takes for the confusion to go away, because it might take some time.
I used to be a crazy dreamer and performer, top of the curve, from a random corner of the world (Kolkata, India). I pushed hard for many years, got the best of project offers, got my family from US$ 300/month income to US$ 9K/month in like 3 years of my early efforts. I thought I would create a Billion $ company before 30. And then, I crashed. I became numb for many years. Lost my relationships and even lost my emotions. I moved to Germany, went through counseling, my friends pushed me into it. I am grateful for that.
The last many years I have been soul searching. Who am I? What do I need, aspire to be? I realized a lot of what I wanted was what magazines told me. Not the fashion magazines; the startup ones. But it is the same feeling when you run out of internal steam chasing that cover picture.
I started to travel, I backpacked Europe a bit when I was in Germany. Came back to India, restarted and failed again. Both in startup and in relationship. But my counseling and mental awareness started helping me this time. I did not fall too deep, too dark. I started focusing on routines, small things like make food, walk a lot, spend time outside the startup buzz. I backpacked around SE Asia, motorbiked 6K kilometers, stayed in a hostel for 5 months in Laos (2020 in lock-down). Cheap life, fun life. I smiled more than I have in a long time.
I still shed tears when I look back, but I do not have regrets now. I have made peace. I used to pretend to be someone I was not. I am not profit minded, so I crashed since what I seek most dearly is a sense of purpose. I live in a village now and I am again seeking co-founders (globally). I am preparing myself to get back to what I do best - but with precautions. With my routine and a lifestyle that helps me breathe, not get anxiety attacks.
Many years have gone by, but this is what, IMHO, is my meaningful existence. Learn, grow, find balance, slowly. The most important thing for me now is my happiness. I stopped chasing others' dreams and started living life by my standards - farms, friendships, family, travel, food, 40 hours of work/week and purpose. We will live with depressive tendencies, but if we know what makes us happy, then there is better mitigation. Nothing else is more important than happy life.
Programming and mathematics will stay your anchors. Make a few more, good friendships. Real ones, and you will know which is which when you try to meet more people. Programming is a big anchor for me, my place of peace. After 20 years of programming, I still learn regularly. There is nothing, there is no one that can take than away from me. The thought builds resilience. But I also have dear friends, spread across borders though. I have this and many communities too. The day Pieter Levels replied to me here, I cried. Do not hold back, you will achieve things but nothing is more important that a happy life right now. Focus on that, find it in people who care about you and you care about them. You will know, just spend some time. And, Tinder will not help, sorry pal.
The first thing I want to suggest is say to yourself "This is OK, this is part of my life, I will be fine eventually". Do not fear the time it takes for the confusion to go away, because it might take some time.
I used to be a crazy dreamer and performer, top of the curve, from a random corner of the world (Kolkata, India). I pushed hard for many years, got the best of project offers, got my family from US$ 300/month income to US$ 9K/month in like 3 years of my early efforts. I thought I would create a Billion $ company before 30. And then, I crashed. I became numb for many years. Lost my relationships and even lost my emotions. I moved to Germany, went through counseling, my friends pushed me into it. I am grateful for that.
The last many years I have been soul searching. Who am I? What do I need, aspire to be? I realized a lot of what I wanted was what magazines told me. Not the fashion magazines; the startup ones. But it is the same feeling when you run out of internal steam chasing that cover picture.
I started to travel, I backpacked Europe a bit when I was in Germany. Came back to India, restarted and failed again. Both in startup and in relationship. But my counseling and mental awareness started helping me this time. I did not fall too deep, too dark. I started focusing on routines, small things like make food, walk a lot, spend time outside the startup buzz. I backpacked around SE Asia, motorbiked 6K kilometers, stayed in a hostel for 5 months in Laos (2020 in lock-down). Cheap life, fun life. I smiled more than I have in a long time.
I still shed tears when I look back, but I do not have regrets now. I have made peace. I used to pretend to be someone I was not. I am not profit minded, so I crashed since what I seek most dearly is a sense of purpose. I live in a village now and I am again seeking co-founders (globally). I am preparing myself to get back to what I do best - but with precautions. With my routine and a lifestyle that helps me breathe, not get anxiety attacks.
Many years have gone by, but this is what, IMHO, is my meaningful existence. Learn, grow, find balance, slowly. The most important thing for me now is my happiness. I stopped chasing others' dreams and started living life by my standards - farms, friendships, family, travel, food, 40 hours of work/week and purpose. We will live with depressive tendencies, but if we know what makes us happy, then there is better mitigation. Nothing else is more important than happy life.
Programming and mathematics will stay your anchors. Make a few more, good friendships. Real ones, and you will know which is which when you try to meet more people. Programming is a big anchor for me, my place of peace. After 20 years of programming, I still learn regularly. There is nothing, there is no one that can take than away from me. The thought builds resilience. But I also have dear friends, spread across borders though. I have this and many communities too. The day Pieter Levels replied to me here, I cried. Do not hold back, you will achieve things but nothing is more important that a happy life right now. Focus on that, find it in people who care about you and you care about them. You will know, just spend some time. And, Tinder will not help, sorry pal.
10+ years on you and creating a throwaway because good advice for young men can sometimes sound offensive.
Being in your 20s:
This is probably the best time in your life where you can freely explore the world of ideas as well as the geographic world, develop your own human capital, pursue projects in all sorts of disciplines, really whatever. It's the best time because it doesn't matter if you succeed or not, because you're only in your 20s. People who build successful startups in their 20s I believe are often very stunted individuals; there's truly great advantage to broadly exploring and learning about life and the opportunities offered everywhere in our complex modern economy, to do all that instead of prematurely welding yourself to a single company/idea. Again... there's unprecedented knowledge, science, industries, and opportunities, and the possibility of traveling and living almost anywhere at all... trust me, no one can possibly have taken it all in by their 20s... again you're at a tremendous advantage if you don't weld yourself to a single thing early in life and stay open to all the possible types of opportunities out there. Being successful in your 30s instead of your 20s is way more desirable in my opinion.
Tinder, two points:
1) There's a weak correlation with what's popular on Tinder and what women are attracted to in-person. I'm a failure on Tinder but have had a number of beautiful, awesome girlfriends over the years because I've always had the balls to just play a sometimes brutal numbers game and ask girls out who I meet in person. You can always do this, learn to not care about some rejection, and you will definitely find women who will go on a date with you.
2) Dating and value in the sexual marketplace is largely about location. Brutal truth but go travel and live somewhere like Asia or Latin America and non Western Europe and you'll find it's about 10x easier to go on dates with people you're attracted to.
"Spending time with friends":
Yes that's always nice, but many people also make their main life about their social life (this is more stereotypically feminine), and that IMO stunts them as individuals. The best types of friendships develop because you'r both pursuing similar goals, so it develops naturally. Those occur by being out in the world pursuing things. Don't force it... it will happen if you're out there doing things and open to interacting with others. It's OK if it takes years... there's a ton of things to focus on, explore, learn, go, etc. so don't think of a lack of a "normal" social life as some sort of handicap, it's not that unusual, and it's inevitably temporary if you're out there pursuing things. I'll also say like the second Tinder point it's easier if you're in a country where your background is rarer.
Being in your 20s:
This is probably the best time in your life where you can freely explore the world of ideas as well as the geographic world, develop your own human capital, pursue projects in all sorts of disciplines, really whatever. It's the best time because it doesn't matter if you succeed or not, because you're only in your 20s. People who build successful startups in their 20s I believe are often very stunted individuals; there's truly great advantage to broadly exploring and learning about life and the opportunities offered everywhere in our complex modern economy, to do all that instead of prematurely welding yourself to a single company/idea. Again... there's unprecedented knowledge, science, industries, and opportunities, and the possibility of traveling and living almost anywhere at all... trust me, no one can possibly have taken it all in by their 20s... again you're at a tremendous advantage if you don't weld yourself to a single thing early in life and stay open to all the possible types of opportunities out there. Being successful in your 30s instead of your 20s is way more desirable in my opinion.
Tinder, two points:
1) There's a weak correlation with what's popular on Tinder and what women are attracted to in-person. I'm a failure on Tinder but have had a number of beautiful, awesome girlfriends over the years because I've always had the balls to just play a sometimes brutal numbers game and ask girls out who I meet in person. You can always do this, learn to not care about some rejection, and you will definitely find women who will go on a date with you.
2) Dating and value in the sexual marketplace is largely about location. Brutal truth but go travel and live somewhere like Asia or Latin America and non Western Europe and you'll find it's about 10x easier to go on dates with people you're attracted to.
"Spending time with friends":
Yes that's always nice, but many people also make their main life about their social life (this is more stereotypically feminine), and that IMO stunts them as individuals. The best types of friendships develop because you'r both pursuing similar goals, so it develops naturally. Those occur by being out in the world pursuing things. Don't force it... it will happen if you're out there doing things and open to interacting with others. It's OK if it takes years... there's a ton of things to focus on, explore, learn, go, etc. so don't think of a lack of a "normal" social life as some sort of handicap, it's not that unusual, and it's inevitably temporary if you're out there pursuing things. I'll also say like the second Tinder point it's easier if you're in a country where your background is rarer.
When you're depressed, never trust your own brain's assessment of your situation. It always shows you a selectively bleaker picture than the actual reality. It's never as bad or as bleak as your brain is making it seem to you.
It's a weird effect because your brain should be doing the opposite, trying to heal you by showing you a selectively happier picture than the actual reality. When your body gets sick, your immune system goes to work trying to cure it. So why doesn't your brain do the same thing when it gets sick - try to heal you instead of making you more sick?
Maybe it's a bug in our programming, who knows. But recognize it for what it is, a flaw in our automatic neurological response to the illness of depression. So the cure can't be automatic, it must be deliberate. Start by learning to see through the flawed response, to see it for what is, like Neo seeing the Matrix for the first time.
Do not trust the false world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth - nothing is as bad or as hopeless as it seems when you're depressed. As long as you're alive, there's always a way forward into a different and better reality. You just have to find it.
To find it, start by relying on experimentalism. Change your routine, your activities, the way you spend your time. It honestly doesn't even matter what you change to, as long as you change to something. Throw a dart at a newspaper on the wall, and if it lands on a new activity, try that. Try everything, even things outside of your comfort zone.
And if the first things you change to don't help, discard them and try others. It takes about a month of trying something new to know whether it's having the desired impact or not, whether it's lifting weights to get stronger, doing a Keto diet to drop fat weight, learning Rust, taking sailing/bjj/dance/etc lessons, or whatever. So stick with each thing for at least a month and then evaluate how you feel and if it's worth continuing or not.
Trying new things rewires your neural pathways in new ways, stimulating positive creative energy. So if you can do those two things - stop trusting your brain and seeing through the falsely bleak picture it's presenting you with, and systematically going out and doing and trying new things to connect new neural pathways, you might start feeling better.
Beyond that, try to think of depression like any other programming or math problem, and always be hacking it. Apply the same systematic, methodical, analytical problem solving skills to depression that you use in programming. Explore the problem space, test different solutions, iterate until you find optimal, or at least sufficient, ones.
PS - and make sure you're getting enough Vitamin D and B12 too. 5000IU daily of D, and I forgot how much B12 but more info here: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/ex...
Additionally, some herbal supplements like Ashwaghanda, Rhodiola Rosea, and Chinese Skullcap can help neutralize cortisol buildup that causes anxiety and makes it more difficult to get out of depression.
PPS - also check out the many useful niche subreddits. Some I've found helpful over the years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/
https://www.reddit.com/r/loseit/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EOOD/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ScientificNutrition/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/
https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/
It's a weird effect because your brain should be doing the opposite, trying to heal you by showing you a selectively happier picture than the actual reality. When your body gets sick, your immune system goes to work trying to cure it. So why doesn't your brain do the same thing when it gets sick - try to heal you instead of making you more sick?
Maybe it's a bug in our programming, who knows. But recognize it for what it is, a flaw in our automatic neurological response to the illness of depression. So the cure can't be automatic, it must be deliberate. Start by learning to see through the flawed response, to see it for what is, like Neo seeing the Matrix for the first time.
Do not trust the false world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth - nothing is as bad or as hopeless as it seems when you're depressed. As long as you're alive, there's always a way forward into a different and better reality. You just have to find it.
To find it, start by relying on experimentalism. Change your routine, your activities, the way you spend your time. It honestly doesn't even matter what you change to, as long as you change to something. Throw a dart at a newspaper on the wall, and if it lands on a new activity, try that. Try everything, even things outside of your comfort zone.
And if the first things you change to don't help, discard them and try others. It takes about a month of trying something new to know whether it's having the desired impact or not, whether it's lifting weights to get stronger, doing a Keto diet to drop fat weight, learning Rust, taking sailing/bjj/dance/etc lessons, or whatever. So stick with each thing for at least a month and then evaluate how you feel and if it's worth continuing or not.
Trying new things rewires your neural pathways in new ways, stimulating positive creative energy. So if you can do those two things - stop trusting your brain and seeing through the falsely bleak picture it's presenting you with, and systematically going out and doing and trying new things to connect new neural pathways, you might start feeling better.
Beyond that, try to think of depression like any other programming or math problem, and always be hacking it. Apply the same systematic, methodical, analytical problem solving skills to depression that you use in programming. Explore the problem space, test different solutions, iterate until you find optimal, or at least sufficient, ones.
PS - and make sure you're getting enough Vitamin D and B12 too. 5000IU daily of D, and I forgot how much B12 but more info here: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/ex...
Additionally, some herbal supplements like Ashwaghanda, Rhodiola Rosea, and Chinese Skullcap can help neutralize cortisol buildup that causes anxiety and makes it more difficult to get out of depression.
PPS - also check out the many useful niche subreddits. Some I've found helpful over the years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/
https://www.reddit.com/r/loseit/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EOOD/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ScientificNutrition/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/
https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/
> Maybe it's a bug in our programming, who knows.
I think so. When things are really bad, getting even a little worse can be utterly catastrophic; making your problems loom larger when you're in a mess is probably an adaptive heuristic that forces people in bad but recoverable situations to behave very conservatively and maximize survival odds; however, in the extreme (e.g., chronic loneliness), that heuristic winds up compounding the problem by inhibiting the only kind of behavior that can rescue the situation, and yet the heuristic survives because it's adaptive in less extreme circumstances.
Beware the psychology of edge cases.
I think so. When things are really bad, getting even a little worse can be utterly catastrophic; making your problems loom larger when you're in a mess is probably an adaptive heuristic that forces people in bad but recoverable situations to behave very conservatively and maximize survival odds; however, in the extreme (e.g., chronic loneliness), that heuristic winds up compounding the problem by inhibiting the only kind of behavior that can rescue the situation, and yet the heuristic survives because it's adaptive in less extreme circumstances.
Beware the psychology of edge cases.
Join a club or group.
Do not believe everything you see posted on the Internet. (Tinder is the Internet).
Seriously. There are firms whose entire purpose is to get you to feel the way you do in the hopes it'll drive consumption or move markets. Then you have to take into account that of the people that are actually there, you've already sort of selected yourself out of if you've taken a strong interest in mathematics and programming.
Think about it, how many people do you know actively pursue your stated interests? You're shooting yourself in the foot with the added burden of rejection. This will not help either.
Re:suicide Most people will try to convince it's absolutely the wrong thing and you should seek help immediately. Let me give you a different perspective on suicidal ideation.
Suicidal ideation occurs when what you have and what you've tuned yourself to do begins to approach a local maxima of maladaptation. You need to not think about suicide in the physical sense of I need to end it all, but in the mental sense of "none of the tools in my mental toolbox are sufficient for the challenges I'm facing". This is a signal it's time for radical novelty and lateral thinking/life experience. You need to get out of your comfort zone, and you tried to do that with Tinder, but I'm going to guess that if you got into math and programming at such a young age, you may be a Myers-Briggs NT, and you're probably not at the best place yet to start to really connect on the emotional wavelengths yet. At least not actively, as your emotional faculties are still probably quite raw and poorly integrated into the overall architecture of self. That means you aren't the best at damping their tendencies to destabilize your inner sense of order, which for you, is probably a key component to you being able to recuperate and regenerate the energy you use to interact with the external world.
Do you have any abandoned hobbies? Previously insignificant things you've dismissed out of hand? Music, Art, aesthetics? Basically anything that engages you in processing the patterns and wholeness of a thing. Basically, you need to get in touch with your destabilizing emotional side and let it walk you somewhere different. It'll be frustrating. You'll probably think you suck and you're horrible at it, but over time you'll get a slow trickle of integration to start happening between your emotional aesthetic faculties that you can use as a sort of slider to index your thinking and perception by how you're feeling at the moment. Figuring out how you're feeling at the moment, and what you need to be, is a combined intuitive/sensing function, and you'll start to get a new input stream to systematize that'll keep you busy. The practical upshot is that you'll also be honing and learning about your feelings, and start demystifying them over time, eventually coming to recognize how powerful a change agent they can be for you in terms of mental catalyzation.
If you're not an NT... Meh Can't help much there, but hang in there. It gets better.
Seriously. There are firms whose entire purpose is to get you to feel the way you do in the hopes it'll drive consumption or move markets. Then you have to take into account that of the people that are actually there, you've already sort of selected yourself out of if you've taken a strong interest in mathematics and programming.
Think about it, how many people do you know actively pursue your stated interests? You're shooting yourself in the foot with the added burden of rejection. This will not help either.
Re:suicide Most people will try to convince it's absolutely the wrong thing and you should seek help immediately. Let me give you a different perspective on suicidal ideation.
Suicidal ideation occurs when what you have and what you've tuned yourself to do begins to approach a local maxima of maladaptation. You need to not think about suicide in the physical sense of I need to end it all, but in the mental sense of "none of the tools in my mental toolbox are sufficient for the challenges I'm facing". This is a signal it's time for radical novelty and lateral thinking/life experience. You need to get out of your comfort zone, and you tried to do that with Tinder, but I'm going to guess that if you got into math and programming at such a young age, you may be a Myers-Briggs NT, and you're probably not at the best place yet to start to really connect on the emotional wavelengths yet. At least not actively, as your emotional faculties are still probably quite raw and poorly integrated into the overall architecture of self. That means you aren't the best at damping their tendencies to destabilize your inner sense of order, which for you, is probably a key component to you being able to recuperate and regenerate the energy you use to interact with the external world.
Do you have any abandoned hobbies? Previously insignificant things you've dismissed out of hand? Music, Art, aesthetics? Basically anything that engages you in processing the patterns and wholeness of a thing. Basically, you need to get in touch with your destabilizing emotional side and let it walk you somewhere different. It'll be frustrating. You'll probably think you suck and you're horrible at it, but over time you'll get a slow trickle of integration to start happening between your emotional aesthetic faculties that you can use as a sort of slider to index your thinking and perception by how you're feeling at the moment. Figuring out how you're feeling at the moment, and what you need to be, is a combined intuitive/sensing function, and you'll start to get a new input stream to systematize that'll keep you busy. The practical upshot is that you'll also be honing and learning about your feelings, and start demystifying them over time, eventually coming to recognize how powerful a change agent they can be for you in terms of mental catalyzation.
If you're not an NT... Meh Can't help much there, but hang in there. It gets better.
So, you find yourself the way you are, with the options you know of, much time left to explore and no direction?
There seems to be a problem of situational knowledge and direction. You don't seem to know where the tasty options are for you, and when they are best taken advantage of.
For example, travelling alone is best done out of season for tourist heavy locales (which are the places other people want, so you might enjoy). And travel is entirely different experience as a couple, a group or a lone traveller. Such that a couple might have better luck end-of-season, and just before season start is a lucky time for groups.
You can only find out what I'm talking about from doing it. How I know it, how significant a consideration any of this is for a given travel opportunity, do you care for the experience of lone travelling at all, and what with as a couple.
In short, you sound like you're forgetting to spend time outside the house doing things, working your environment for interesting opportunities, making acquaintances and exploring their map of your shared surroundings. No business is going to come to you if you don't hustle for it mate.
I know it's tempting to package your identity and present it in some gallery -- someone might notice, someone might be approving, interested, appreciative. That would be supportive to your self worth. But chances are you won't hear back from any of this, and those are just the chances, even if you're otherwise an exceptional specimen. So if you don't hear back, that is evidence of the base landscape of chance, you shouldn't care. Put 20 more profiles up on other services. Amplify your effort. Still means nothing.
They guy flying a plane is a pilot. They guy commanding everyone's attention is the instructor. The guy discussing his supply with a chinese seller through a translate tab on his side-b's handy at 4am night before product launch is a business man.
Notice, none of these people are comfy at home. They are all engaged in high-stakes environment manipulation.
It's all about how you spend your time. When you catch yourself having the option and the compulsion to engage in something you don't want to be the -man of, have a ready-good option of doing something that does represent what you think you could be. Could you be the one taking walks? Take a 20 minute walk with no phone or purpose instead of 20 minute coffee with FB/Twitter. Doing so is in and of itself a successful realization of what you think you could be.
And don't be busy or money-tight. People that are engaged in those two have bad luck doing anything else at all.
In general, set time aside to explore. Think about what you like, and how it could be better enjoyed. See where your fear is, what it is, how it would all go bad, how would it be if it didn't go that way. If you think much on some other person and what they want, then try to understand why, try to see if that is something you want at all. Every day you should explore, adjust, assess.
Talk to yourself, ask yourself things. What's next, John? Are we going to enjoy it? What is the game if not? How will it go, what should I have prepared and on-hand? What will it do, how do we feel about that?
Actually try it. Like, the way I typed it. Quite literally.
There seems to be a problem of situational knowledge and direction. You don't seem to know where the tasty options are for you, and when they are best taken advantage of.
For example, travelling alone is best done out of season for tourist heavy locales (which are the places other people want, so you might enjoy). And travel is entirely different experience as a couple, a group or a lone traveller. Such that a couple might have better luck end-of-season, and just before season start is a lucky time for groups.
You can only find out what I'm talking about from doing it. How I know it, how significant a consideration any of this is for a given travel opportunity, do you care for the experience of lone travelling at all, and what with as a couple.
In short, you sound like you're forgetting to spend time outside the house doing things, working your environment for interesting opportunities, making acquaintances and exploring their map of your shared surroundings. No business is going to come to you if you don't hustle for it mate.
I know it's tempting to package your identity and present it in some gallery -- someone might notice, someone might be approving, interested, appreciative. That would be supportive to your self worth. But chances are you won't hear back from any of this, and those are just the chances, even if you're otherwise an exceptional specimen. So if you don't hear back, that is evidence of the base landscape of chance, you shouldn't care. Put 20 more profiles up on other services. Amplify your effort. Still means nothing.
They guy flying a plane is a pilot. They guy commanding everyone's attention is the instructor. The guy discussing his supply with a chinese seller through a translate tab on his side-b's handy at 4am night before product launch is a business man.
Notice, none of these people are comfy at home. They are all engaged in high-stakes environment manipulation.
It's all about how you spend your time. When you catch yourself having the option and the compulsion to engage in something you don't want to be the -man of, have a ready-good option of doing something that does represent what you think you could be. Could you be the one taking walks? Take a 20 minute walk with no phone or purpose instead of 20 minute coffee with FB/Twitter. Doing so is in and of itself a successful realization of what you think you could be.
And don't be busy or money-tight. People that are engaged in those two have bad luck doing anything else at all.
In general, set time aside to explore. Think about what you like, and how it could be better enjoyed. See where your fear is, what it is, how it would all go bad, how would it be if it didn't go that way. If you think much on some other person and what they want, then try to understand why, try to see if that is something you want at all. Every day you should explore, adjust, assess.
Talk to yourself, ask yourself things. What's next, John? Are we going to enjoy it? What is the game if not? How will it go, what should I have prepared and on-hand? What will it do, how do we feel about that?
Actually try it. Like, the way I typed it. Quite literally.
So...
I'm going to in the other direction here. Depression is reasonable. It's your brains way of telling you you are screwing up, becoming a liability, a drain on other people, a darwinian/genetic failure, or something like that. It's telling you you have a problem and you need to solve it. The beauty of this is that YOU CAN.
In this case, the fact that you went on Tinder to solve it is pretty telling. It means that you want to, frankly speaking, make sure you're not a genetic failure, or a failure on the status hierarchy, or both (probably both). The suicide impulse is, in my VERY UNSCIENTIFIC opinion, an evolved impulse to reduce your potential drain on the tribe. And some quirk of the male brain (not a scientist, just a man) says "not worthy to reproduce (in the eyes of women)"="not worthy to exist/drain on the tribe." The solution is to make yourself not a drain on the tribe, by making yourself useful in some capacity and/or progressing towards reproductive/social status success. The solution is not to die, it is to earn the right to live, by your own reckoning. Having faced the same sort of thing a few years back, here are my suggestions.
1) Go lift some weights, if you don't already. Stronglifts 5x5 to start, or some similar beginner linear-progression weight lifting program for 3-6 months (no more than that), followed by something like 5/3/1 will help you mentally, physically, and socially (yes, socially). The effects on your brain are important. Beyond just the hormonal effects of weightlifting, you also get the sense of progression from seeing the weights go up on the barbell every single workout. From the perspective of someone who feels they aren't really making progress in life, that can be a very enlivening feeling. Finally, even the beginnings of a real, male physique, which you'll see after 8-12 weeks of hard work on a beginner program will make people more inclined to talk to you, like you and respect you.
2) Take some Vitamin D. It's important for your hormones. Vitamin D deficiency might be an issue, might not. But take some and make sure that it isn't an issue.
3) Make small talk with every person you meet. Not every woman, every person. No expectations. Just have fun. In the starbucks line? Chat. At the grocery store? Chat. Water cooler? Chat. Library? Chat. You will suck at this at first, but you'll get good at this in time. This should fix the isolation/shunned by the tribe/status hierarchy failure problem, or at least ameliorate it.
4) Do you have an older male mentor? Not one for programming. You'd be better off hitting up a boxing gym or BJJ gym or something.
5) Eat some red meat, some eggs, some other stuff that's conducive to high testosterone levels. No crazy snake oil stuff, but just healthy, nutritious food that makes you feel good and does good things for your body.
6) Get a social activity of some sort. If you're still in school (grad school?) join a club of some sort. If you're out of school, maybe hit up some meet ups. The hobby kind, not the professional kind.
I'm going to in the other direction here. Depression is reasonable. It's your brains way of telling you you are screwing up, becoming a liability, a drain on other people, a darwinian/genetic failure, or something like that. It's telling you you have a problem and you need to solve it. The beauty of this is that YOU CAN.
In this case, the fact that you went on Tinder to solve it is pretty telling. It means that you want to, frankly speaking, make sure you're not a genetic failure, or a failure on the status hierarchy, or both (probably both). The suicide impulse is, in my VERY UNSCIENTIFIC opinion, an evolved impulse to reduce your potential drain on the tribe. And some quirk of the male brain (not a scientist, just a man) says "not worthy to reproduce (in the eyes of women)"="not worthy to exist/drain on the tribe." The solution is to make yourself not a drain on the tribe, by making yourself useful in some capacity and/or progressing towards reproductive/social status success. The solution is not to die, it is to earn the right to live, by your own reckoning. Having faced the same sort of thing a few years back, here are my suggestions.
1) Go lift some weights, if you don't already. Stronglifts 5x5 to start, or some similar beginner linear-progression weight lifting program for 3-6 months (no more than that), followed by something like 5/3/1 will help you mentally, physically, and socially (yes, socially). The effects on your brain are important. Beyond just the hormonal effects of weightlifting, you also get the sense of progression from seeing the weights go up on the barbell every single workout. From the perspective of someone who feels they aren't really making progress in life, that can be a very enlivening feeling. Finally, even the beginnings of a real, male physique, which you'll see after 8-12 weeks of hard work on a beginner program will make people more inclined to talk to you, like you and respect you.
2) Take some Vitamin D. It's important for your hormones. Vitamin D deficiency might be an issue, might not. But take some and make sure that it isn't an issue.
3) Make small talk with every person you meet. Not every woman, every person. No expectations. Just have fun. In the starbucks line? Chat. At the grocery store? Chat. Water cooler? Chat. Library? Chat. You will suck at this at first, but you'll get good at this in time. This should fix the isolation/shunned by the tribe/status hierarchy failure problem, or at least ameliorate it.
4) Do you have an older male mentor? Not one for programming. You'd be better off hitting up a boxing gym or BJJ gym or something.
5) Eat some red meat, some eggs, some other stuff that's conducive to high testosterone levels. No crazy snake oil stuff, but just healthy, nutritious food that makes you feel good and does good things for your body.
6) Get a social activity of some sort. If you're still in school (grad school?) join a club of some sort. If you're out of school, maybe hit up some meet ups. The hobby kind, not the professional kind.
Just about anything can be turned into a nerdly pursuit, a game of building a benchmark and then optimizing against it, if you want to. And when you look deeply at "how do people feel content with themselves", it's because they have actually pursued such a goal throughout different aspects of their lives. The social ladder looks singular, oppressive, because from the outside, it just looks like have/have-nots, when the actual thing of it has a great deal to do with how you use your personality and inclinations, which situations you engage with and which you bow out from, and where you choose to invest effort. Tinder is just one game to optimize for, and you can bow out of it and play a different one. It's not high school; you can make up some rules now.
For example, socialization is not really about "I have friends/I don't have friends". Interacting with a retail worker to get coffee is socializing. Talking to strangers at the bar is socializing. Going in for the date or job interview is also socializing. Different people are interested in different facets of these things. You can be a wallflower in one space and gregarious in another. And friends tend to not be characters in a story, conveniently falling into meetings; nor are they rational-expectations economic actors, optimizing all situations for maximum self-interest; they're more like cattle you have to round up to do anything with because they will just stay home like you if left to themselves, so you end up with a Venn diagram of friends for "A" and friends for "B" with minimal overlap, cause that's what you can get them for.
There are game players on Twitch who are quite good at the games they play and get lots of followers - ergo they are popular - but show minimal social ability. Their face is well-lit, but they grunt and swear and complain their way through every session and ignore their chat. Nobody is going to be charmed by what they are saying, but expressiveness tends to show through their gameplay, which can make up for a lot. And there are also streamers who hide behind an avatar, are not particularly exceptional at game-playing, but have a great ability to build stories and create situations that get their chat engaged. And there's no hope of quantifying these differences as a rank of overall quality as a person, but the fact that those differences do exist and neither is muted, undefined, expressionless, really does matter, and matters more than the particulars.
So - think about how you want to engage with people. Study that problem. Going to the gym, getting a style change, etc can help, but they're like subsets of the overall direction you're going in. Becoming a kind of person that you are not OK with is not going to help. Likewise you can get stuck in a rut because it looks like being dishonest in that sense is the "right" way, that there is only one way to be social and it's not your way; that usually afflicts the young because they observe other people pushing boundaries in ways that they aren't OK with, see negative stereotypes, and think "well, maybe this isn't for me" and write off their engagement before they really try. But, it's also a socially constructed phenomenon in the first place. Taking your inclinations and principles and polishing them up as best you can is a great path to becoming an Interesting Person.
For example, socialization is not really about "I have friends/I don't have friends". Interacting with a retail worker to get coffee is socializing. Talking to strangers at the bar is socializing. Going in for the date or job interview is also socializing. Different people are interested in different facets of these things. You can be a wallflower in one space and gregarious in another. And friends tend to not be characters in a story, conveniently falling into meetings; nor are they rational-expectations economic actors, optimizing all situations for maximum self-interest; they're more like cattle you have to round up to do anything with because they will just stay home like you if left to themselves, so you end up with a Venn diagram of friends for "A" and friends for "B" with minimal overlap, cause that's what you can get them for.
There are game players on Twitch who are quite good at the games they play and get lots of followers - ergo they are popular - but show minimal social ability. Their face is well-lit, but they grunt and swear and complain their way through every session and ignore their chat. Nobody is going to be charmed by what they are saying, but expressiveness tends to show through their gameplay, which can make up for a lot. And there are also streamers who hide behind an avatar, are not particularly exceptional at game-playing, but have a great ability to build stories and create situations that get their chat engaged. And there's no hope of quantifying these differences as a rank of overall quality as a person, but the fact that those differences do exist and neither is muted, undefined, expressionless, really does matter, and matters more than the particulars.
So - think about how you want to engage with people. Study that problem. Going to the gym, getting a style change, etc can help, but they're like subsets of the overall direction you're going in. Becoming a kind of person that you are not OK with is not going to help. Likewise you can get stuck in a rut because it looks like being dishonest in that sense is the "right" way, that there is only one way to be social and it's not your way; that usually afflicts the young because they observe other people pushing boundaries in ways that they aren't OK with, see negative stereotypes, and think "well, maybe this isn't for me" and write off their engagement before they really try. But, it's also a socially constructed phenomenon in the first place. Taking your inclinations and principles and polishing them up as best you can is a great path to becoming an Interesting Person.
[deleted]
"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?" - Jesus
A good solution to your problem might be to develop a different understanding of the meaning and purpose of life. "Normal" American culture is selling you a false bill of goods IMO.
You could start by reading the Bible. Start with the Gospel of John and Romans. The ESV is a great translation and they have a study bible that is helpful.
Listen/read good preachers/teachers who can help you understand what life is really about: John Piper, Tim Keller, and R.C. Sproul are all great places to start. Each of them have podcasts available.
John Piper has a book called "Don't Waste Your Life" that is available free online and would likely be applicable to your situation. Tim Keller has a book on marriage that might help put your relationship troubles in perspective.
Finally, find a good church and start building relationships with people. Get advice from those who are wise and godly. Any church affiliated with 9 Marks ministries or following their advice on church priorities is likely a good place to start.
This won't be a popular suggestion, and Christ doesn't promise his followers an easy or happy life (just the opposite). But he does offer a meaningful life, wisdom to understand what is wrong with us and the world around us, salvation from sin and judgement (which are the biggest threat to us), and hope for better times yet to come.
One of the things the Bible teaches is that, in significant ways, we are all complete failures at life. But Christ lived and died to offer us redemption from that failure. To give our lives value, regardless of how little "success" we have. No...to redefine "success" and give us something actually worth living for.
A good solution to your problem might be to develop a different understanding of the meaning and purpose of life. "Normal" American culture is selling you a false bill of goods IMO.
You could start by reading the Bible. Start with the Gospel of John and Romans. The ESV is a great translation and they have a study bible that is helpful.
Listen/read good preachers/teachers who can help you understand what life is really about: John Piper, Tim Keller, and R.C. Sproul are all great places to start. Each of them have podcasts available.
John Piper has a book called "Don't Waste Your Life" that is available free online and would likely be applicable to your situation. Tim Keller has a book on marriage that might help put your relationship troubles in perspective.
Finally, find a good church and start building relationships with people. Get advice from those who are wise and godly. Any church affiliated with 9 Marks ministries or following their advice on church priorities is likely a good place to start.
This won't be a popular suggestion, and Christ doesn't promise his followers an easy or happy life (just the opposite). But he does offer a meaningful life, wisdom to understand what is wrong with us and the world around us, salvation from sin and judgement (which are the biggest threat to us), and hope for better times yet to come.
One of the things the Bible teaches is that, in significant ways, we are all complete failures at life. But Christ lived and died to offer us redemption from that failure. To give our lives value, regardless of how little "success" we have. No...to redefine "success" and give us something actually worth living for.
First the bad news: A romantic partner is not a good way to sort this out, that way lies codependency and heartbreak. I would focus on the problem first and get that out of the way, even if it means waiting a while.
The good news: Probably most people have a rough early 20s, it might be the hardest time in life. You are waking up to the fact that the world has no rules, and even “success” is something you will have to define for yourself. It’s a lot to deal with, but you will get better at dealing with it, I promise.
The really good news is that it will never be too late to make friends, and they don’t have to be the same age anymore so the “friend pool” is way bigger. Treat this like an opportunity - you can try anything you feel like trying, most people will not care that you are a beginner, and most activities will come with a community of like-minded people you can befriend.
Don’t expect to figure everything out right away, but just get out of your comfort zone and interact with the world for now. Physical activity is best if possible, exercise is as close to a guaranteed treatment for depression as anything. This is not medical advice, but: “A tired dog is a happy dog.”
The good news: Probably most people have a rough early 20s, it might be the hardest time in life. You are waking up to the fact that the world has no rules, and even “success” is something you will have to define for yourself. It’s a lot to deal with, but you will get better at dealing with it, I promise.
The really good news is that it will never be too late to make friends, and they don’t have to be the same age anymore so the “friend pool” is way bigger. Treat this like an opportunity - you can try anything you feel like trying, most people will not care that you are a beginner, and most activities will come with a community of like-minded people you can befriend.
Don’t expect to figure everything out right away, but just get out of your comfort zone and interact with the world for now. Physical activity is best if possible, exercise is as close to a guaranteed treatment for depression as anything. This is not medical advice, but: “A tired dog is a happy dog.”
I know this is not a popular opinion in general, but the most powerful antidote I know (well, more correctly the ONLY one I know) against self-disdain or similar feelings, is realizing that you are deeply loved by the Creator of heaven and earth himself.
King David summarizes this very succinctly in his own way: "Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me."
The whole of Psalm 27 is very encouraging I think: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2027&vers...
King David summarizes this very succinctly in his own way: "Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me."
The whole of Psalm 27 is very encouraging I think: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2027&vers...
And if one does not believe in god, one can indeed still marvel at the spectacular creation that is this universe and beautiful planet that we live on, and count ourselves lucky and blessed that we have a chance to live on it—- and are likely (if we are here posting on HN) in a more beneficial position/circumstance than many others on it...
I've heard it said that arms and legs are already a huge privilege and a lot to be grateful for.
I have had a similar experience. Since I started having a daily conversation with ,,the void,, or ,,the universal good,, I have felt much better, even with everything going on in the world.
Interesting. I like this idea. Seems like it would be a very peaceful activity/thing.
Here is my rather straightforward practice. I consider myself addressing both the sysadmin and the hardware-software of my existence when I speak to anyone doing this.
I generally do it at the same time of day, though sometimes I make an exception and do it earlier or later, when I feel that my presence elsewhere is important for good.
I developed it after several years of studying several different meditation traditions, attending churches, and reading religious texts.
Ideally, I do this in a quiet room, sitting by myself, but that is not always possible, and I do not demand it. It can be done internally without altering anything in the physical.
For prayer, I tend towards a three-step process of gratitude-forgiveness-petition. First, I express gratitude for all my gifts and privilege throughout the day that I can think of.
Second, I ask for forgiveness for anything regretful... Missing out on acknowledging someone. Laziness in performing a necessary task. Allowing myself to ruminate or think negatively.
Then, it is time for requests. I ask for guidance and to see clearly into my intentions to ensure that they are joyful and good. And then I express them the best I can, being mindful to not be too specific, nor too attached to any particular outcome, because I cannot see the big picture.
After this, comes the other important part. Listening for a reply. Our existence is infinitely more complex than our language and human-human interaction allows, and so it may be hard to understand or even see the message. After all, you are taking on the role of an ant asking for help from a human, except infinitely more removed from each other. It is not always peaceful, sometimes it is overwhelming and I cry.
All this knowledge repeats again and again in texts both old and new, and if you allow yourself to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, people who lived more than 100 years ago were not complete buffoons and idiots, it can bring peace, joy, satisfaction, amazement, marvel... Even that feeling of "time slipping away faster every day" will recede. Take it from me, I was depressed through and through for a good 15-20 years straight almost without respite.
Good luck, and I'd love to hear your experiences.
May this knowledge help you and bring you joy!
I generally do it at the same time of day, though sometimes I make an exception and do it earlier or later, when I feel that my presence elsewhere is important for good.
I developed it after several years of studying several different meditation traditions, attending churches, and reading religious texts.
Ideally, I do this in a quiet room, sitting by myself, but that is not always possible, and I do not demand it. It can be done internally without altering anything in the physical.
For prayer, I tend towards a three-step process of gratitude-forgiveness-petition. First, I express gratitude for all my gifts and privilege throughout the day that I can think of.
Second, I ask for forgiveness for anything regretful... Missing out on acknowledging someone. Laziness in performing a necessary task. Allowing myself to ruminate or think negatively.
Then, it is time for requests. I ask for guidance and to see clearly into my intentions to ensure that they are joyful and good. And then I express them the best I can, being mindful to not be too specific, nor too attached to any particular outcome, because I cannot see the big picture.
After this, comes the other important part. Listening for a reply. Our existence is infinitely more complex than our language and human-human interaction allows, and so it may be hard to understand or even see the message. After all, you are taking on the role of an ant asking for help from a human, except infinitely more removed from each other. It is not always peaceful, sometimes it is overwhelming and I cry.
All this knowledge repeats again and again in texts both old and new, and if you allow yourself to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, people who lived more than 100 years ago were not complete buffoons and idiots, it can bring peace, joy, satisfaction, amazement, marvel... Even that feeling of "time slipping away faster every day" will recede. Take it from me, I was depressed through and through for a good 15-20 years straight almost without respite.
Good luck, and I'd love to hear your experiences.
May this knowledge help you and bring you joy!
These profiles are just sales pages. Travel is a pain with the pandemic, friends might be friends or random people from the pub.
The conversion rate on tinder is very very low, it's nothing personal just female privilege (some are just looking for validation "im pretty", not dates). The solution is to save lots of time by automating it. You can do about 1000-4000 swipes a day using a bash script. On Linux bash+xdotool or bash+adb. Don't take it to seriously, you will get matches. To find potential girlfriends this way takes about a month. Some will ghost or be mean, that's just the shitty tinder experience for men. But this method always worked for me. You can try different states / countries, your popularity my vary depending on location.
Alternatively just pay a match maker and relax.
You are a decade younger than me, don't worry, you can try out lots of woman and have by no means "failed".
Find a psychologist to talk to, modern life is extremely stressful with career, education, dating etc. You need someone to vent.
The conversion rate on tinder is very very low, it's nothing personal just female privilege (some are just looking for validation "im pretty", not dates). The solution is to save lots of time by automating it. You can do about 1000-4000 swipes a day using a bash script. On Linux bash+xdotool or bash+adb. Don't take it to seriously, you will get matches. To find potential girlfriends this way takes about a month. Some will ghost or be mean, that's just the shitty tinder experience for men. But this method always worked for me. You can try different states / countries, your popularity my vary depending on location.
Alternatively just pay a match maker and relax.
You are a decade younger than me, don't worry, you can try out lots of woman and have by no means "failed".
Find a psychologist to talk to, modern life is extremely stressful with career, education, dating etc. You need someone to vent.
[deleted]
Join a tennis/squash/raquetball/pickleball club.
You will
get active and fit
get outside and get some Vitamin D
have to concentrate and invest in something
dress decently
etc.
But more importantly:
your diary will fill up
you will have to hold a conversation
meet lots of other people.
Simple 1970s solutions.
You will
get active and fit
get outside and get some Vitamin D
have to concentrate and invest in something
dress decently
etc.
But more importantly:
your diary will fill up
you will have to hold a conversation
meet lots of other people.
Simple 1970s solutions.
I'm in the same boat man, and it doesn't help that I'm also a career failure to boot so it doesn't seem like I have anything going for me.
jimmyvalmer(1)
Program, program, program. Build something cool.
It's a grass is always greener on the other side thing, looking at other people's lives.
It's a grass is always greener on the other side thing, looking at other people's lives.
Having spent a good proportion of the last decade in programming and mathematics - a time which brought me many joyful moments - I've also spent a significant amount of time, maybe even reaching the zenith in the past months, being very depressed, lonely, socially anxious; all are obvious hindrances in life.
For some inexplicable reason, a short circuit in my brain lead me to believe that creating a Tinder account might be a countermeasure for not feeling lonely anymore.
Seeing in the profile pictures what "normal", "well-rounded" people in my age are doing on Tinder, such as traveling, spending time with friends, etc., made my pain even worse, let alone the fact that I received zero matches. Feeling like a social outcast, and having an even stronger urge now in taking my own life - a decision I contemplated many times - ... I just feel very lost in life. I know that I'm a complete failure in life.
Over the years I've gotten to know this community quite well. I know that I'm probably not alone in dealing with these problems.
My hope is that, as so often, you people might have an insight, an idea, words of wisdom, or anecdotal experience in trying to rationalize my current feelings and situation. Thank you.