Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)(medium.com)
medium.com
Some Days I Can’t Do Life – When everyday life becomes a struggle (2020)
https://medium.com/invisible-illness/some-days-i-cant-do-life-47c83045cd05
89 comments
Same here. Prozac and walking 30min a day building up to 50min a day changed my life. I eventually quit smoking a pack a day cigarette habit also. It took years for me to try SSRI though.
Not taking prozac was a combination of being stubborn but you also never really read anything good about SSRI. It doesn't fit the narrative that big pharma is evil.
I tried therapy but the therapist were honestly terrible. The only good one was the one that prescribed me Prozac but the actual discussions were basically nonsense.
SSRI get a bad name IMO because people want to take them and magically have all their problems solved that lead them to be depressed. IMO it has to be in combination with a real willingness to absolutely change your life and habits. Have to get in good physical condition. The idea you can sit around all day, getting more and more out of shape but somehow not be depressed is not really logical.
Not taking prozac was a combination of being stubborn but you also never really read anything good about SSRI. It doesn't fit the narrative that big pharma is evil.
I tried therapy but the therapist were honestly terrible. The only good one was the one that prescribed me Prozac but the actual discussions were basically nonsense.
SSRI get a bad name IMO because people want to take them and magically have all their problems solved that lead them to be depressed. IMO it has to be in combination with a real willingness to absolutely change your life and habits. Have to get in good physical condition. The idea you can sit around all day, getting more and more out of shape but somehow not be depressed is not really logical.
ADHD makes me feel like this. There's days where I wake up and I just can't cope with anything: everything feels like a chore to power through.
However, I don't like to medicate. I always feel like they tone down my personality and I'm just not energetic anymore. It's a real shame because the meds (atomoxetine, an SNRI) eliminate my anxiety.
I honestly try to power through the days. I find that having solid habits and a routine is a big help for days like this. It's a lot easier to get things done on a bad day when you don't have to think about things much: just wake up, do your bed, and start your morning routine.
Your post inspires me though, I might start taking the meds again. I dropped them for side effects and the aforementioned personality changes. I'm in a good place right now, but when the lows hit, it gets really annoying to constantly power through life on hard mode.
However, I don't like to medicate. I always feel like they tone down my personality and I'm just not energetic anymore. It's a real shame because the meds (atomoxetine, an SNRI) eliminate my anxiety.
I honestly try to power through the days. I find that having solid habits and a routine is a big help for days like this. It's a lot easier to get things done on a bad day when you don't have to think about things much: just wake up, do your bed, and start your morning routine.
Your post inspires me though, I might start taking the meds again. I dropped them for side effects and the aforementioned personality changes. I'm in a good place right now, but when the lows hit, it gets really annoying to constantly power through life on hard mode.
This is what stops me. I definitely have at least societally caused ADD (i.e. internet is just a click away full of ways to waste the time away), but probably a bit more than that, and I have a close family member with diagnosed ADHD, so I probably could get it diagnosed and get meds for it...but I'm a little afraid I'll lose one of the good things about it, which is my brain keeps bouncing around from idea to idea and comes up with all sorts of interesting things.
Now being able to stay focused to get those finished enough to get them out the door and released on the world is another thing entirely, and I seem to be having more difficulty with that now that I'm older and have more natural distractions such as two dogs that always want my attention at the worst times :)
But yeah, always had issues with deadlines, getting to places on time, impulse control, focusing on things I don't care enough about (i.e. work), etc. I've muddled through anyway and done alright for myself, at least so far, but I might get more accomplished with some medication.
But then what if I stop coming up with cool game designs and stories and music as a result?
The other thing that stops me is that close family member had some bad reactions to ADHD meds (both physical and mental), so that also gives me pause, since we share a lot of the same genes.
Now being able to stay focused to get those finished enough to get them out the door and released on the world is another thing entirely, and I seem to be having more difficulty with that now that I'm older and have more natural distractions such as two dogs that always want my attention at the worst times :)
But yeah, always had issues with deadlines, getting to places on time, impulse control, focusing on things I don't care enough about (i.e. work), etc. I've muddled through anyway and done alright for myself, at least so far, but I might get more accomplished with some medication.
But then what if I stop coming up with cool game designs and stories and music as a result?
The other thing that stops me is that close family member had some bad reactions to ADHD meds (both physical and mental), so that also gives me pause, since we share a lot of the same genes.
> But then what if I stop coming up with cool game designs and stories and music as a result?
Do you come up with the designs and stories and actually implement them or are they all half-finished projects? I think if you’re actually completing them, there’s no need to change and I somewhat doubt you have ADHD.
If they are all sitting half-finished on the shelf, yea that’s different. IMO
Do you come up with the designs and stories and actually implement them or are they all half-finished projects? I think if you’re actually completing them, there’s no need to change and I somewhat doubt you have ADHD.
If they are all sitting half-finished on the shelf, yea that’s different. IMO
Almost all half finished, especially lately (pandemic really killed a lot of my creative drive and seemed to make my mind even harder to focus). I’ve got like 50 board game prototypes and zero published (1 signed with a publisher though, and a couple that have been finalists in design contests though, so maybe someday), eight novel manuscripts I could never finish editing (most written during Nanowrimo), six half-finished video games (8 finished and released ones in my past, but zero in the past…almost 10 years now), etc.
I feel you there. Especially with the creativity stuff.
> But then what if I stop coming up with cool game designs and stories and music as a result?
It seems to me that you could try it, and if you don't like the results, then stop taking it. The effects aren't permanent.
It seems to me that you could try it, and if you don't like the results, then stop taking it. The effects aren't permanent.
They were permanent in my family member's case. They're not taking the meds anymore (taking anti-psychotic meds now), but they're still getting worse. Granted they did take it for several years before it became apparent (and/or they let others know) that this had started happening.
Not saying the meds are definitely the cause, maybe it was a latent thing they always had, but we share enough genes I'm not sure I want to take the chance. The effects it had on them was/continues to be pretty scary.
https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/adderall-psychosis
This is probably my main concern, actually, not so much the other, sorry for not making that clear.
Not saying the meds are definitely the cause, maybe it was a latent thing they always had, but we share enough genes I'm not sure I want to take the chance. The effects it had on them was/continues to be pretty scary.
https://www.healthline.com/health/adhd/adderall-psychosis
This is probably my main concern, actually, not so much the other, sorry for not making that clear.
There are other medications that work differently.
Yep. I tried Adderall and the effects weren't quite what I wanted, so I just told my doc and tapered off it.
(I had trouble sleeping, and it wasn't giving me executive function in the evening when I needed it to, instead I was crashing after work)
(I had trouble sleeping, and it wasn't giving me executive function in the evening when I needed it to, instead I was crashing after work)
My girlfriend mentions that her ADHD meds (Concerta, or an off-license / cheaper alternative with the same active ingredients and slow release) act as a mood stabilizer more than anything. She's struggled with depression for ages, antidepressants or anything changing her hormones made her spiral downwards instead of make her feel better.
One thing to keep in mind is that it takes a few days for it to be fully effective (leftovers from the day before overlapping with the next dosage). Another thing is that if it doesn't seem to do anything, you may need a different dosage.
Another colleague diagnosed as an adult described the effect to be quite mind-blowing, as in, his head finally quieted down.
Anyway, nobody I know mentioned they feel like they are someone else. It helps them function and cope with daily life. The "ritalin changed my child into a mindless zombie" memes are over the top, or may imply they've been vastly over-medicated (although ritalin is short-acting, whereas concerta are slow release).
And finally, it's fine to take a medication break every once in a while, it does seem like you build up a tolerance to it.
One thing to keep in mind is that it takes a few days for it to be fully effective (leftovers from the day before overlapping with the next dosage). Another thing is that if it doesn't seem to do anything, you may need a different dosage.
Another colleague diagnosed as an adult described the effect to be quite mind-blowing, as in, his head finally quieted down.
Anyway, nobody I know mentioned they feel like they are someone else. It helps them function and cope with daily life. The "ritalin changed my child into a mindless zombie" memes are over the top, or may imply they've been vastly over-medicated (although ritalin is short-acting, whereas concerta are slow release).
And finally, it's fine to take a medication break every once in a while, it does seem like you build up a tolerance to it.
> It's a lot easier to get things done on a bad day when you don't have to think about things much: just wake up, do your bed, and start your morning routine.
The routine stuff is the 'easiest' part in some ways. It's "not having fun" that can really create a drag over the long term:
> Anhedonia is a diverse array of deficits in hedonic function, including reduced motivation or ability to experience pleasure.[1] While earlier definitions emphasized the inability to experience pleasure, anhedonia is currently used by researchers to refer to reduced motivation, reduced anticipatory pleasure (wanting), reduced consummatory pleasure (liking), and deficits in reinforcement learning.[2][3][4]
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia
The routine stuff is the 'easiest' part in some ways. It's "not having fun" that can really create a drag over the long term:
> Anhedonia is a diverse array of deficits in hedonic function, including reduced motivation or ability to experience pleasure.[1] While earlier definitions emphasized the inability to experience pleasure, anhedonia is currently used by researchers to refer to reduced motivation, reduced anticipatory pleasure (wanting), reduced consummatory pleasure (liking), and deficits in reinforcement learning.[2][3][4]
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia
In my experience, for an ADHD folk the routine stuff is the hardest.
If it doesn't give you a hit of dopamine, it becomes extremely difficult. Anything from homework to daily chores means your brain entering a deep brain fog, almost like a subdued headache.
Getting to a point where I have the discipline and self-control to maintain a daily routine has been a lifelong challenge.
If it doesn't give you a hit of dopamine, it becomes extremely difficult. Anything from homework to daily chores means your brain entering a deep brain fog, almost like a subdued headache.
Getting to a point where I have the discipline and self-control to maintain a daily routine has been a lifelong challenge.
You can also try different meds if the ones you take have bad side effects
I should have mentioned in my comment, the first meds I took did absolutely nothing, it was the second try that actually did the trick. Worth giving it another shot.
Out of curiosity, which meds did you try?
With ADHD there are really only two options; atomoxetine (Strattera) and stimulants like aderall or ritalin (or any of the dozens of time-release versions of those two drugs).
I did stimulants for years and they really distorted my sense of self in a way that was hard to put a finger on until I got out of the long-term traumatic situation I was in. I felt like life was a treadmill and I was looking at my feet the whole time — I could go really fast but I lost sight of everything around me. I switched to atomoxetine and while it still takes effort to start something, it’s much easier for me to take a task to completion (or at least further towards completion).
I did stimulants for years and they really distorted my sense of self in a way that was hard to put a finger on until I got out of the long-term traumatic situation I was in. I felt like life was a treadmill and I was looking at my feet the whole time — I could go really fast but I lost sight of everything around me. I switched to atomoxetine and while it still takes effort to start something, it’s much easier for me to take a task to completion (or at least further towards completion).
Amantadine and certain antidepressants are said to help some people affected by AD(H)D as well. But talk to your doctor before you go "oh, amantadine is cheap otc flu med...". And it depends on a lot of factors, like your exact symptoms (with/without hyperactivity), treatment goals, side effects and secondary problems. Really really talk to a doctor about this, getting "the meds" right is complicated and takes some trial and error.
Wikipedia says guanfacine and clonidine too. And bupropion and modafinil off label.
Citalopram then Sertraline.
Different people have different reactions. This is not medial advice. Consult your physician to see if sertraline is right for you.
Different people have different reactions. This is not medial advice. Consult your physician to see if sertraline is right for you.
> It's super interesting, it ties all the causes of depression together — childhood trauma, everyday experience, down to the neuron, and chemical reactions. It really helps externalize it.
I’ll need to check this out. I really want to know more about what depression “is” before attempting to treat it. I’m skeptical about most suggested treatment options including medication, despite me being least skeptical about that. However, I was many years ago diagnosed and thrown on medication. Hard to not be cynical when you’re watching TV a decade later and see ads for a class action lawsuit regarding long term side effects of a medication you’re on because the company fraudulently claimed it was safe.
I’ll need to check this out. I really want to know more about what depression “is” before attempting to treat it. I’m skeptical about most suggested treatment options including medication, despite me being least skeptical about that. However, I was many years ago diagnosed and thrown on medication. Hard to not be cynical when you’re watching TV a decade later and see ads for a class action lawsuit regarding long term side effects of a medication you’re on because the company fraudulently claimed it was safe.
If you don't mind sharing, what meds did you go on?
depression is not a disease, it's a name for a group of symptoms with wildly different causes and remedies.
Disease is a pretty vague term — perhaps there are situations where it has a more specific meaning but in general usage it just means "health condition"
Depression is used as an example of a disease in the first few paragraphs of the wikipedia entry for disease
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease
Here's the Merriam Webster definition, I think depression fits into it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disease
Depression is used as an example of a disease in the first few paragraphs of the wikipedia entry for disease
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease
Here's the Merriam Webster definition, I think depression fits into it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disease
The issue with people I know who take them are more than not feeling oneself, it's potential side effects like sexual issues, weight gain, and for the creative types, feeling less creative (so perhaps more of the losing oneself fear).
Thank you so much. You changed my life.
I have caught myself riding the snooze - alarm clock pattern.
Its my favourite part of the day, the 'waking up in warm bed' time. When I am just barely conscious and its feels good to be in warm bed - it feel blissful. When I wake up in the morning I will hit 10min snooze, just enough to fall asleep and wake up. Just to get more of that feeling - because I know thats the only time I will get it. I am doing it for an hour on weekdays and often for hours on the weekends.
I just can't force myself out of bed, out of that state where it doesn't feel bad. I talked to people who are going through the same. Some skip work to stay in bed because they cant do it anymore. I did it few times too, and I am terrified I might slip into that state of apathy. That fear is the only thing that keeps me going, I can only hope this fear will stay.
I dont have any wisdom or advice for anyone going through this, I just wanted to vent my thoughts and say that you are not alone in this, stay strong.
Its my favourite part of the day, the 'waking up in warm bed' time. When I am just barely conscious and its feels good to be in warm bed - it feel blissful. When I wake up in the morning I will hit 10min snooze, just enough to fall asleep and wake up. Just to get more of that feeling - because I know thats the only time I will get it. I am doing it for an hour on weekdays and often for hours on the weekends.
I just can't force myself out of bed, out of that state where it doesn't feel bad. I talked to people who are going through the same. Some skip work to stay in bed because they cant do it anymore. I did it few times too, and I am terrified I might slip into that state of apathy. That fear is the only thing that keeps me going, I can only hope this fear will stay.
I dont have any wisdom or advice for anyone going through this, I just wanted to vent my thoughts and say that you are not alone in this, stay strong.
You will probably receive advice like "move the alarm clock to the other side of the room!". This kind of advice is well-meaning, but entirely misses the point. To quote the article:
> "Escaping the depression requires doing things I'm too depressed to do."
Good luck.
> "Escaping the depression requires doing things I'm too depressed to do."
Good luck.
>> "Escaping the depression requires doing things I'm too depressed to do."
Yes that is definitely true.
Thing that shook me a bit to get a better grip on reality and fight my depression was a line fro Bojack the horseman.
>> Don't fetishise your own sadness.
Its crazy how your mind works, and how depression obscures and bends the reality. But its a sickness and not a character trait, you can't let it define you.
> Good luck.
Thanks :)
Yes that is definitely true.
Thing that shook me a bit to get a better grip on reality and fight my depression was a line fro Bojack the horseman.
>> Don't fetishise your own sadness.
Its crazy how your mind works, and how depression obscures and bends the reality. But its a sickness and not a character trait, you can't let it define you.
> Good luck.
Thanks :)
Your comment really resonated with me. I love the feeling too and would set the alarm for even earlier just so I could snooze for longer. What I eventually realised though is that doing this really fucks with your last couple hours of sleep which would make me tired for the rest of the day.
What I do now if I crave that blissful "in bed" feeling is just go to bed ridiculously early, like 12 hours before actually having to get up. What I found is that laying in bed half awake 2 or 3 hours before I have to get up is ten times better than hitting the snooze button every 10 minutes.
Additionally I get out of bed actually feeling physically good now so I've got a lot more energy throughout the day. At first I would just sleep 10 to 12 hours, but after a while I'd start waking up naturally 7 to 8 hours after going to bed.
What I do now if I crave that blissful "in bed" feeling is just go to bed ridiculously early, like 12 hours before actually having to get up. What I found is that laying in bed half awake 2 or 3 hours before I have to get up is ten times better than hitting the snooze button every 10 minutes.
Additionally I get out of bed actually feeling physically good now so I've got a lot more energy throughout the day. At first I would just sleep 10 to 12 hours, but after a while I'd start waking up naturally 7 to 8 hours after going to bed.
Funnily enough, whatever I set my alarm sound to (using my smartphone, so it's some kind of chime) I grow to hate.
There are certain standard alarm sounds that mildly annoy/trigger me whenever they play, just as they remind me of that..
There are certain standard alarm sounds that mildly annoy/trigger me whenever they play, just as they remind me of that..
Depression is a sinister downward spiral that becomes self fulfilling and all consuming. As said in the piece...
> Escaping the depression requires doing things I’m too depressed to do.
So please, if you see yourself at the top of this abyss, reach out right away for help before that too seems like too much.
You are valuable
You are loved
You are worthy of care
Like eating an elephant, one tiny bite at a time, take a small step and celebrate it. That might be as small as sitting up or getting off the couch. Your brain doesn’t want to celebrate it, but you can.
I have been on the support end and also struggled a bit with mild depression for the better part of 20 years. There are people who understand... find them and hold them close.
Hopefully you have a healthy relationship with your parents or a very close friend / partner. Lean into that and let them love you. It may require they physically get you to a doctor and that is a good thing.
One more small step to celebrate.
> Escaping the depression requires doing things I’m too depressed to do.
So please, if you see yourself at the top of this abyss, reach out right away for help before that too seems like too much.
You are valuable
You are loved
You are worthy of care
Like eating an elephant, one tiny bite at a time, take a small step and celebrate it. That might be as small as sitting up or getting off the couch. Your brain doesn’t want to celebrate it, but you can.
I have been on the support end and also struggled a bit with mild depression for the better part of 20 years. There are people who understand... find them and hold them close.
Hopefully you have a healthy relationship with your parents or a very close friend / partner. Lean into that and let them love you. It may require they physically get you to a doctor and that is a good thing.
One more small step to celebrate.
"To keep reading this story, get the free app or log in."
Stuff like this should be banned from HN.
Reading this as a person with disability leave a bad taste in my mouth. I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
Stuff like this should be banned from HN.
Reading this as a person with disability leave a bad taste in my mouth. I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
>>Reading this as a person with disability leave a bad taste in my mouth. I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
I "understand" your point, but you know, as a person who is dealing with depression my whole life i can tell you that depression can be a hard, real, lifelong challange too.
Disability is one of the hardest things to deal with in my opinion, but i learned that it is better to not assume anything about other people struggles. Something that looks small for you may seem unbearable and hard for others and vice versa.
I "understand" your point, but you know, as a person who is dealing with depression my whole life i can tell you that depression can be a hard, real, lifelong challange too.
Disability is one of the hardest things to deal with in my opinion, but i learned that it is better to not assume anything about other people struggles. Something that looks small for you may seem unbearable and hard for others and vice versa.
I hear what you are saying. However, I cant get rid of the feeling that this attitude of "everyones pain is important" actually leads to people falling in love with their various pains, instead of actually trying to fight them. Regarding depression. I had a phase of depression for several years, in addition to my disability. This gave me yet more incentive to fight the depression, because you know, being depressed and fucking blind isn't really a state you want to stay in.
I realize everyone has their own story, and things feel differently to different people. But I cant get rid of the feeling that we are breeding unhappy people because we promise them support an every level, no matter what their story might be. IOW, I am not convinced that this new type of social pampering is actually healthy to the individual.
I realize everyone has their own story, and things feel differently to different people. But I cant get rid of the feeling that we are breeding unhappy people because we promise them support an every level, no matter what their story might be. IOW, I am not convinced that this new type of social pampering is actually healthy to the individual.
Is having an abusive family grown up a real lifelong challenge? Is having poor brain chemistry leading you to making decisions you don't "want" to make a real enough challenge? Is crippling anxiety that prevents you from doing anything and not having emotional support to fight it difficult enough?
Who are you to judge what a person's mind is feeling like? You have no way to know someone else's demons. So the bad taste in your mouth is no one else's doing.
Who are you to judge what a person's mind is feeling like? You have no way to know someone else's demons. So the bad taste in your mouth is no one else's doing.
You ask me who I am? I had a more complicated and fucked up life then 99% of the population, if not 99.99%. So I feel fucking qualified to tell others to get their shit together. Yes. And this nosey type of writing of yours is not going to change my mind.
I use my own extension [0] to warn me about links to domains that I dislike, such as Medium.
[0] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nay/
[0] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nay/
I get frustrated at the "light touch" wrt the workarounds rule on HN - I really believe OPs should be more engaged and expected to post an alternative as the first comment. Sometimes a thread goes for hours without somebody providing the info for those of us who can't access it.
In this case though, this is just Medium; there are various workarounds as others have indicated, (e.g.) a simple one on Chrome is just to view it in a private tab.
--
wrt your comment on physical disability vs (the implied "trivial") things like mental illness I have seen very severe instances of both close up and don't think your comparison is realistic or helpful.
In this case though, this is just Medium; there are various workarounds as others have indicated, (e.g.) a simple one on Chrome is just to view it in a private tab.
--
wrt your comment on physical disability vs (the implied "trivial") things like mental illness I have seen very severe instances of both close up and don't think your comparison is realistic or helpful.
> I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
I’m bipolar. It’s rather severe and I’m non-functional without medication, hopelessly broke due to psychosis non-functional. If that isn’t a real lifelong challenge, well… life has a few different options to opt-out.
I’m bipolar. It’s rather severe and I’m non-functional without medication, hopelessly broke due to psychosis non-functional. If that isn’t a real lifelong challenge, well… life has a few different options to opt-out.
>>Stuff like this should be banned from HN.
Agreed. Any sites with this kind of silly dark patterns need to be omitted or should be posted with a warning.
Anyways. Here is an archive link so you can finish reading this article.
https://archive.is/Bmlg6
Agreed. Any sites with this kind of silly dark patterns need to be omitted or should be posted with a warning.
Anyways. Here is an archive link so you can finish reading this article.
https://archive.is/Bmlg6
> Reading this as a person with disability leave a bad taste in my mouth. I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
There's always someone with a problem they feel is worse. How would you feel if someone invalidated your feelings in that same way?
There's always someone with a problem they feel is worse. How would you feel if someone invalidated your feelings in that same way?
If they have a even harder life to manage, I have no problem accepting that. However, you will not find many people below me, so good luck with your "I will get you" argument.
> I wonder what people like this would do if faced with a real lifelong challenge?
Rethink this.
Rethink this.
At the moment the policy is "If there are ways to circumvent the paywall, it's OK to post", but yeah it seems to be a recurring annoyance.
As someone with an invisible illness (Chrohns) this hit way too close to home.
People assume if you look fine you are fine (which is a reasonable assumption at a first pass) but there are days/weeks I feel "normal" whatever that is and days where I'm watching the clock til it's "I can reasonably go to bed now" time.
People assume if you look fine you are fine (which is a reasonable assumption at a first pass) but there are days/weeks I feel "normal" whatever that is and days where I'm watching the clock til it's "I can reasonably go to bed now" time.
I’m bipolar and I feel like this all the time. Coworkers asking how my vacation was just pisses me off. I can’t tell them why without risking all kinds of problems.
I haven’t had a vacation or break from anything since I started my job. All my PTO has been burned on medical problems. And now I’m looking at having to disclose I’m bipolar to get unpaid medical leave. Right after a three day weekend.
At least my manager has my back here.
I haven’t had a vacation or break from anything since I started my job. All my PTO has been burned on medical problems. And now I’m looking at having to disclose I’m bipolar to get unpaid medical leave. Right after a three day weekend.
At least my manager has my back here.
I’ve got scoliosis and spondylitis. People tend to assume I’m lazy if I take a seat on public transport because I’m young.
Such things can get rather tiresome.
Such things can get rather tiresome.
I have syringomyelia (spine cavity that presses on nerves causing neuropath pain) - some days it's barely noticeable and some days it feels like someone is putting my legs/feet in boiling water.
Had a massive row because it hurts to stand on those days and I'd booked a reserved seat on a train and someone decided that reservations don't matter.
I had to politely ask them to move, then impolitely ask them - there are days when been 6ft/200lb (1.83/90KG) has it's uses tbh.
Had a massive row because it hurts to stand on those days and I'd booked a reserved seat on a train and someone decided that reservations don't matter.
I had to politely ask them to move, then impolitely ask them - there are days when been 6ft/200lb (1.83/90KG) has it's uses tbh.
It’s sad how often people assume you’re just being an awkward or crappy person when you have less obvious issues.
I see it as character building haha
I see it as character building haha
Lyme disease is similarly tragic which effects your brain or causes extreme fatigue syndrome which has no cure.
Just want to say I love the fact you're all having this open discussion without hiding behind a throwaway account. It makes me believe the subject is becoming less taboo. Let's keep that going:)
Antidepressants are just fine after you have tried everything to resolve the depression naturally. Diet, exercise, relationships, career, etc. Most often this will work.
Eventually you may need a heavier hammer. Antidepressants can do the job but they are not meant to be used for long term use. The reason is side effects, long term withdrawal/dependency, and the eventual “poop out”. One year should be the cut off.
Fluoxetine, for example, induces neurogenesis. This is the method of action that cures depression. Exercise can do the same thing, which is why you’ll see studies of “cardio is just as effective as antidepressants”. Psilocybin as well.
Chronic stress will reduce your neurogenesis. There are many, many ways in this modern world to experience it.
The stigma of antidepressants needs to end. They can be very useful tools under the right circumstances.
Another thing you have to watch out for is mental illness, such as bipolar, that is not treatable with antidepressants (they can induce mania) nor any holistic method. Mood stabilizers and possibly an “antipsychotic” will be required. I’m bipolar and Lamotrigine has improved my world that no lifestyle change ever could. It’s been nothing short of a miracle drug for me.
Eventually you may need a heavier hammer. Antidepressants can do the job but they are not meant to be used for long term use. The reason is side effects, long term withdrawal/dependency, and the eventual “poop out”. One year should be the cut off.
Fluoxetine, for example, induces neurogenesis. This is the method of action that cures depression. Exercise can do the same thing, which is why you’ll see studies of “cardio is just as effective as antidepressants”. Psilocybin as well.
Chronic stress will reduce your neurogenesis. There are many, many ways in this modern world to experience it.
The stigma of antidepressants needs to end. They can be very useful tools under the right circumstances.
Another thing you have to watch out for is mental illness, such as bipolar, that is not treatable with antidepressants (they can induce mania) nor any holistic method. Mood stabilizers and possibly an “antipsychotic” will be required. I’m bipolar and Lamotrigine has improved my world that no lifestyle change ever could. It’s been nothing short of a miracle drug for me.
Thanks for sharing your struggles and laying out some of the ‘action’ pathways.
Also really appreciated your follow up with the caveat for antidepressant use with bipolar. Many people don’t know this and hiding it from your family can literally be life threatening.
Regarding psilocybin, I have seen lots of cautions regarding use by bipolar folks. Most of the studies specifically avoid including bipolar so far.
Clearly an n=1, but have you had success with it (if you feel comfortable sharing)?
Also really appreciated your follow up with the caveat for antidepressant use with bipolar. Many people don’t know this and hiding it from your family can literally be life threatening.
Regarding psilocybin, I have seen lots of cautions regarding use by bipolar folks. Most of the studies specifically avoid including bipolar so far.
Clearly an n=1, but have you had success with it (if you feel comfortable sharing)?
What substances a bipolar person can consume will vary by the individual. Some can use alcohol moderately, others must completely abstain.
Bipolar is a progressive illness. I have taken psychedelics a handful of times and experienced the purported benefits that last a lifetime. Other times I have experienced extreme paranoia. I guess it depends on what state I’m in (mania, depression, mixed, stable).
I used amphetamines and THC for many years to self medicate before being diagnosed. Self medication is extremely common for bipolar folks, especially alcohol. It only makes things worse.
I’m still figuring out what I can and cannot consume, along with dosage. Since being on a mood stabilizer, I absolutely cannot consume any amount of THC, as it will induce mania. Alcohol will make me incredibly depressed the next day. Medication is new to me this year.
Bipolar is a progressive illness. I have taken psychedelics a handful of times and experienced the purported benefits that last a lifetime. Other times I have experienced extreme paranoia. I guess it depends on what state I’m in (mania, depression, mixed, stable).
I used amphetamines and THC for many years to self medicate before being diagnosed. Self medication is extremely common for bipolar folks, especially alcohol. It only makes things worse.
I’m still figuring out what I can and cannot consume, along with dosage. Since being on a mood stabilizer, I absolutely cannot consume any amount of THC, as it will induce mania. Alcohol will make me incredibly depressed the next day. Medication is new to me this year.
Thanks again for your candor. Everyone is definitely different and even within a person is their current state, so it is no surprise your experience has been mixed. Great to hear you did have some positive experiences, I have heard they can be seminal.
Hang in there, glad Lamotrigine has been so successful for you. I wish everyone could find a single med that could bring them relief.
Many end up on a cocktail with plenty of side effects etc. it’s a never ending game of whack a mole and it sucks.
Hang in there, glad Lamotrigine has been so successful for you. I wish everyone could find a single med that could bring them relief.
Many end up on a cocktail with plenty of side effects etc. it’s a never ending game of whack a mole and it sucks.
Bipolar is already correlated with psychosis. (Mine is more pronounced than average.) Taking substances that induce psychosis seems a tad dangerous.
Right... which is why the studies have avoided folks with bipolar and focused on straight depression.
As one with a loved one who suffers, the ‘magic’ solution of psilocybin is still a big pull to give it a shot.
As one with a loved one who suffers, the ‘magic’ solution of psilocybin is still a big pull to give it a shot.
Depression seems to have different underlying causes in different people. What works for someone might not work for someone else. And how long to stay on medication varies from person to person. Especially if they have recurring depression.
I'm not saying it's the same for everyone, but I realized over the years one of the biggest reasons for my own depression was boredom and a lack of change.
I found the 'cure' for me was to reduce the amount of possessions I own to the bare minimum, and to travel (or even move) to a new city/country. (Obviously not as feasible these days, which will hopefully soon change...)
I find going to a new place and being stimulated by new surroundings, culture, food, learning how to get around, etc. always energizes me and makes me excited.
Maybe it's just distracting myself so I don't focus on my own mortality, but isn't that what most of life is anyway?
I found the 'cure' for me was to reduce the amount of possessions I own to the bare minimum, and to travel (or even move) to a new city/country. (Obviously not as feasible these days, which will hopefully soon change...)
I find going to a new place and being stimulated by new surroundings, culture, food, learning how to get around, etc. always energizes me and makes me excited.
Maybe it's just distracting myself so I don't focus on my own mortality, but isn't that what most of life is anyway?
I found a lot of items I possessed represented things "todo", and if I didn't actually use/do them, represented undone things. Having a reckoning - will I actually use, or get rid of this item, was the trick.
You can always re-buy utility items. The hard things are the sentimental stuff.
Incidentally, I have/had exactly the same issue will code/files on my computer - a lifetime of downloaded files, and bookmarks, for thing's I might never re-visit.
Here's a good metric for value: "If I had a baby right now, would I still give a shit about this?". It sorts the trivial from the truly valuable well enough, without having to question the meaning of life (the question "If I where dying would I give a shite" is too strong/abstract a proposition for the same purpose)
You can always re-buy utility items. The hard things are the sentimental stuff.
Incidentally, I have/had exactly the same issue will code/files on my computer - a lifetime of downloaded files, and bookmarks, for thing's I might never re-visit.
Here's a good metric for value: "If I had a baby right now, would I still give a shit about this?". It sorts the trivial from the truly valuable well enough, without having to question the meaning of life (the question "If I where dying would I give a shite" is too strong/abstract a proposition for the same purpose)
I feel a similar positivity/jolt of energy when undertaking a new, difficult task (like moving to a new city). I assume you
re young and don't have children. Have you thought about how to manage your "medical" treatment when/if you have people who rely on you?
I'm old(er) and don't plan on having children.
Ah, fair. Then I can see how you manage it! : )
Unfortunately, for me this boredom returns way to quickly. It seems I have a couple of years at most before I return to my old ways.
I believe one of the best keywords for starting to address the modern epidemic of depression, inability to build relationships, excessive focus on materialist goals, and other problems is developmental trauma.
The cause for this trauma is unmet needs in the formative years of the nervous system until about 5 years. Key among them are needs for autonomy and connection. Those are in natural conflict, and have to be balanced. When those aren't met, survival strategies are developed that undermine us when we are grown up. As a result excessive focus on independence or, the other extreme, over-adaption to others make relationships hard to attain or maintain, and feelings of hopelessness ensue.
Good starting point for reading is the book: Heller, Laurence, Aline LaPierre: Healing Developmental Trauma. How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship, 2012
The cause for this trauma is unmet needs in the formative years of the nervous system until about 5 years. Key among them are needs for autonomy and connection. Those are in natural conflict, and have to be balanced. When those aren't met, survival strategies are developed that undermine us when we are grown up. As a result excessive focus on independence or, the other extreme, over-adaption to others make relationships hard to attain or maintain, and feelings of hopelessness ensue.
Good starting point for reading is the book: Heller, Laurence, Aline LaPierre: Healing Developmental Trauma. How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship, 2012
I wrote/drew some things about this a while ago. In my case, a big contributor to multi-decade mental health issues was an undiagnosed B-12 deficiency. SSRI's can be a godsend for many folks, but with their advent, the previous medical knowledge about other physical causes of depression went out the window. It's important for us to screen for and treat those, too.
Here are some of my pieces on this theme:
https://radiosof.com/2015/01/20/depression-comix/
https://radiosof.com/category/mental-health/
Here are some of my pieces on this theme:
https://radiosof.com/2015/01/20/depression-comix/
https://radiosof.com/category/mental-health/
This is very true. It’s important to screen for physical causes first.
For example, thyroid issues can cause the same symptoms as bipolar. I was screened for that at the start of my treatment.
For example, thyroid issues can cause the same symptoms as bipolar. I was screened for that at the start of my treatment.
Will taking a multivitamin cover your bases for vitamin deficiency induced depression?
> Escaping the depression requires doing things I’m too depressed to do.
This is the hidden danger that people who haven't experienced depression don't seem to understand.
This is the hidden danger that people who haven't experienced depression don't seem to understand.
Part of what's at work here is a cognitive distortion, something we tell ourselves - it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not every non-medical intervention requires a metric ton of willpower to implement. Being medicated in itself requires dragging your ass out of bed to see a professional, get a proper diagnosis and prescription, actions that in other contexts are rationalized as something "too depressed to do". People are more motivated to get medication because they see a clearer, faster path to results and the alternatives do not appear so decisive and clear.
Late to this, but to be sure: I have learned for myself that God is real, cares, life has a purpose and extends before & after this mortality, questions have answers, each person including you is of infinite worth, and you never truly have to be alone. If we learn and make good choices, things can and will be very good, better than now. Honesty and the Golden Rule are important, as is sincere prayer to God (who knows you and actually does care, and has a plan).
Your worth definitely does not depend on comparisons with what seems popular. There are permanent truths one can grasp and keep, for peace & stability amid the hard times that we all can have; even joy.
Some other ideas (not all are about dating) at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27637759 and my profile fwiw.
All real best wishes.
Your worth definitely does not depend on comparisons with what seems popular. There are permanent truths one can grasp and keep, for peace & stability amid the hard times that we all can have; even joy.
Some other ideas (not all are about dating) at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27637759 and my profile fwiw.
All real best wishes.
testosterone for me,
Keep the shields up from my anima.
Keep the shields up from my anima.
Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.
Almost all direct threats (animals, attacks, wars, etc) have been eliminated and if you don’t live in a high crime area, you probably don’t even have a good reason to lock your doors. If you don’t have anything to survive and you don’t really have anything to worry about, more trivial things take on more importance.
I was attacked/chased by a mentally ill person trying to run me down earlier this year. It was the first time in my life getting a full dose of ‘fight or flight’. In the moment it was obviously unpleasant, but I found it was powerful in contextualizing things and bringing perspective. Having my complete sense of safety removed reminded me of how lucky I am to have that 99.999% of the time. It also made me recognize my own capabilities; I was very impressed with my ability to evade danger and survive a dangerous encounter I was completely unprepared for. I’ve never done sport or anything like that so I kind of thought I would be useless if ever attacked, but it turns out I can run and use obstacles in my environment pretty well.
Life is still a struggle between chaos/danger and structure/safety, but the modern world is so well-run that most people don’t really experience that; any one person can drop the ball/give up and it doesn’t matter, which I suspect makes it harder for people to find meaning.
Fortunately, we have many tools at our disposal to get a simulation of fight-or-flight in our daily lives without actually enduring physical assault. I really like horror films and some Googling suggests others find it helpful as well. I also find music is a good tool for regulating emotional state.
Almost all direct threats (animals, attacks, wars, etc) have been eliminated and if you don’t live in a high crime area, you probably don’t even have a good reason to lock your doors. If you don’t have anything to survive and you don’t really have anything to worry about, more trivial things take on more importance.
I was attacked/chased by a mentally ill person trying to run me down earlier this year. It was the first time in my life getting a full dose of ‘fight or flight’. In the moment it was obviously unpleasant, but I found it was powerful in contextualizing things and bringing perspective. Having my complete sense of safety removed reminded me of how lucky I am to have that 99.999% of the time. It also made me recognize my own capabilities; I was very impressed with my ability to evade danger and survive a dangerous encounter I was completely unprepared for. I’ve never done sport or anything like that so I kind of thought I would be useless if ever attacked, but it turns out I can run and use obstacles in my environment pretty well.
Life is still a struggle between chaos/danger and structure/safety, but the modern world is so well-run that most people don’t really experience that; any one person can drop the ball/give up and it doesn’t matter, which I suspect makes it harder for people to find meaning.
Fortunately, we have many tools at our disposal to get a simulation of fight-or-flight in our daily lives without actually enduring physical assault. I really like horror films and some Googling suggests others find it helpful as well. I also find music is a good tool for regulating emotional state.
I encourage you to read more about depression and how to support depressed people. It'll give you a better insight into how depression operates than a single event you experienced.
> It also made me recognize my own capabilities; I was very impressed with my ability to evade danger and survive a dangerous encounter I was completely unprepared for. I’ve never done sport or anything like that so I kind of thought I would be useless if ever attacked, but it turns out I can run and use obstacles in my environment pretty well.
Unfortunately these kind of events don't compare well with bouts of depression. They really are not the same thing.
Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.
With that being said.
> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.
This a confusion between immediate physical dangers (disease, aggression, security in your home) and the stress of our current way of life (competition for work and at work essentially, culture with a heavy accent on individuality, etc.).
Another approach could be: why is there so much depression and anxiety in spite of the comfort level of western society. (maybe western society isn't that comfortable ? or we should work on the definition of comfortable ?).
> It also made me recognize my own capabilities; I was very impressed with my ability to evade danger and survive a dangerous encounter I was completely unprepared for. I’ve never done sport or anything like that so I kind of thought I would be useless if ever attacked, but it turns out I can run and use obstacles in my environment pretty well.
Unfortunately these kind of events don't compare well with bouts of depression. They really are not the same thing.
Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.
With that being said.
> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.
This a confusion between immediate physical dangers (disease, aggression, security in your home) and the stress of our current way of life (competition for work and at work essentially, culture with a heavy accent on individuality, etc.).
Another approach could be: why is there so much depression and anxiety in spite of the comfort level of western society. (maybe western society isn't that comfortable ? or we should work on the definition of comfortable ?).
I think you’re missing the point.
My thesis, perhaps not well stated: depression and anxiety are linked to a flight/fight, motivation system that isn’t well tuned to a world completely free of any actual risk.
Thesis handily answers your last questions and others.
> Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.
Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.
This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. Gratitude journaling is another strategy that is very successful.
My thesis, perhaps not well stated: depression and anxiety are linked to a flight/fight, motivation system that isn’t well tuned to a world completely free of any actual risk.
Thesis handily answers your last questions and others.
> Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.
Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.
This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. Gratitude journaling is another strategy that is very successful.
> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.
That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.
> This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed.
No, they wouldn't. They would suffer from depression and stop being able to feel joy. That's what depression does to your mind at some point. Put that person in the shoes of someone with cancer, that cancer is not going away.
> Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.
This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
Depression will eat your self-esteem and energy, it doesn't care if have been hit by hardships before or not.
What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.
You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
If you ever meet someone who admits their depression to you, please keep your thesis to yourself.
edit:
> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.
Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?
That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.
> This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed.
No, they wouldn't. They would suffer from depression and stop being able to feel joy. That's what depression does to your mind at some point. Put that person in the shoes of someone with cancer, that cancer is not going away.
> Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.
This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
Depression will eat your self-esteem and energy, it doesn't care if have been hit by hardships before or not.
What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.
You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
If you ever meet someone who admits their depression to you, please keep your thesis to yourself.
edit:
> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.
Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?
> Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?
Learned helplessness seems pretty closely related to depression and I’m glad you brought it up.
The depression in animals comes from learning that they can’t influence their torment. I just read the book “Grit” and that had good treatment of the matter. The flip side of the coin is that you can learn that you actually can influence your life.
Torment without ability to influence the outcome is obviously going to lead to depression.
I think in humans, there is learned helplessness in that people know that, e.g. going for a run, getting out of bed, taking a shower will make them feel better, but they have somehow learned to believe that it won’t. I suspect for many people, depression starts out mild but becomes worse over time as they learn to not even try to be happy. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/learned-helplessne... I’ve seen it with other interventions - e.g. “why even go on antidepressants, nothing will change”.
Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.
Learned helplessness seems pretty closely related to depression and I’m glad you brought it up.
The depression in animals comes from learning that they can’t influence their torment. I just read the book “Grit” and that had good treatment of the matter. The flip side of the coin is that you can learn that you actually can influence your life.
Torment without ability to influence the outcome is obviously going to lead to depression.
I think in humans, there is learned helplessness in that people know that, e.g. going for a run, getting out of bed, taking a shower will make them feel better, but they have somehow learned to believe that it won’t. I suspect for many people, depression starts out mild but becomes worse over time as they learn to not even try to be happy. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/learned-helplessne... I’ve seen it with other interventions - e.g. “why even go on antidepressants, nothing will change”.
Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.
> Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.
This is in direct contradiction with how you started this thread:
> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.
It is now my belief you are not arguing in good faith.
This is in direct contradiction with how you started this thread:
> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.
It is now my belief you are not arguing in good faith.
Key phrase is “a lot of”.
To break down the full statement:
- “Sometimes I wonder” => this is an explanation/story I’ve thought about; it is one of many models of the world and I have doubts about how applicable it is
- “a lot of” => an amount that is more than negligible but likely less than most (in other words, less than half)
- “in western society” => proposed model/story applies only to a limited western context; implies that this is describing cultural and environmental phenomenon rather than personal failing
- “(I say western because I don’t know enough about others)” => acknowledgment of blind spots and limitations in knowledge generally
- “is due to life just being too comfortable” => core assertion of (theorized) mechanism.
I don’t think there’s any mystery why abuse and trauma create depression; I’m more interested in why people without those problems (like people I know with depression) end up depressed.
I’m not the only one asking these questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/ Of course that study points to a more direct relationship with sedentary lifestyle and isolation, which isn’t an exact fit for the “comfortable western lifestyle” story/model.
To break down the full statement:
- “Sometimes I wonder” => this is an explanation/story I’ve thought about; it is one of many models of the world and I have doubts about how applicable it is
- “a lot of” => an amount that is more than negligible but likely less than most (in other words, less than half)
- “in western society” => proposed model/story applies only to a limited western context; implies that this is describing cultural and environmental phenomenon rather than personal failing
- “(I say western because I don’t know enough about others)” => acknowledgment of blind spots and limitations in knowledge generally
- “is due to life just being too comfortable” => core assertion of (theorized) mechanism.
I don’t think there’s any mystery why abuse and trauma create depression; I’m more interested in why people without those problems (like people I know with depression) end up depressed.
I’m not the only one asking these questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/ Of course that study points to a more direct relationship with sedentary lifestyle and isolation, which isn’t an exact fit for the “comfortable western lifestyle” story/model.
> What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.
I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.
The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.
Saying that society is structured in a way that prevents people from functioning well (I.e. is not tailored to the realities of the human limbic system) is the opposite of saying that it is in depressed people’s heads or that depressed people are spoiled brats.
> > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization. FWIW I also practice gratitude journaling, so I know it’s helpful from my own life. I’ve also overcome binge eating disorder (bad enough to result in morbid obesity), anxiety (social and otherwise), and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).
> That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.
Fun fact, we still don’t actually know what causes depression, and we’re not very good at treating it. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to speculate that the environment might be a contributing factor. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depressio...
> You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.
The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.
Saying that society is structured in a way that prevents people from functioning well (I.e. is not tailored to the realities of the human limbic system) is the opposite of saying that it is in depressed people’s heads or that depressed people are spoiled brats.
> > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization. FWIW I also practice gratitude journaling, so I know it’s helpful from my own life. I’ve also overcome binge eating disorder (bad enough to result in morbid obesity), anxiety (social and otherwise), and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).
> That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.
Fun fact, we still don’t actually know what causes depression, and we’re not very good at treating it. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to speculate that the environment might be a contributing factor. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depressio...
> You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
Your words are like sandpaper. I have no doubt people who are struggling with mental health get aggravated by you.
Can you please elaborate? I’m trying to avoid causing distress but I don’t see how what I’ve written is anything other than clear, neutral, and respectful (even more than usual for an Internet forum).
(PS: I don’t discuss mechanisms of depression with depressed people; reviews from friends who have recovered are generally positive, I think mainly because I am willing to put up with the emotional abuse and continue to be supportive)
(PS: I don’t discuss mechanisms of depression with depressed people; reviews from friends who have recovered are generally positive, I think mainly because I am willing to put up with the emotional abuse and continue to be supportive)
> > > What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.
> > I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.
> The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.
Maybe you bear some responsibilities then if you keep on getting the same kind of reaction when talking with depressed people. Why do you insist on that approach, knowing it hurts them ?
I am not putting words in your mouth. I am reformulating stupid statements like: > If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.
You may not like it but you did implied depressed people didn't know actual struggles.
> > and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).
There is a pattern here where you think you are the one who knows how other are feelings (depressed, insulted with the absence of insults, having experienced sufferings or struggles).
And survivor bias, of course (see what I did here ?).
> > > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
> While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization.
Self-reported anecdata with your anti-western position and a situation that has nothing to do with depression ? No, you gave no support to your thesis.
Oddly enough you also chose to lead your reasoning on depression with that one-time event rather than your self reported bouts of depression.
> > > You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
> No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
You are confusing a solution to a problem with its cause. The fact CBT is effective in helping keeping depression effects at bay doesn't prove thought patterns are the sole root cause of depression.
PS:
> I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you.
Strangely enough this choice of words triggers more unpleasant feelings for me than anything else you said. How curious.
PPS:
Know what I think of what happens to depressed people who experienced actual struggles in non-western societies ? They die sooner.
> > I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.
> The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.
Maybe you bear some responsibilities then if you keep on getting the same kind of reaction when talking with depressed people. Why do you insist on that approach, knowing it hurts them ?
I am not putting words in your mouth. I am reformulating stupid statements like: > If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.
You may not like it but you did implied depressed people didn't know actual struggles.
> > and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).
There is a pattern here where you think you are the one who knows how other are feelings (depressed, insulted with the absence of insults, having experienced sufferings or struggles).
And survivor bias, of course (see what I did here ?).
> > > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.
> While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization.
Self-reported anecdata with your anti-western position and a situation that has nothing to do with depression ? No, you gave no support to your thesis.
Oddly enough you also chose to lead your reasoning on depression with that one-time event rather than your self reported bouts of depression.
> > > You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.
> No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
You are confusing a solution to a problem with its cause. The fact CBT is effective in helping keeping depression effects at bay doesn't prove thought patterns are the sole root cause of depression.
PS:
> I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you.
Strangely enough this choice of words triggers more unpleasant feelings for me than anything else you said. How curious.
PPS:
Know what I think of what happens to depressed people who experienced actual struggles in non-western societies ? They die sooner.
Anyway, I eventually took meds, and I have never felt more myself, or the person I want to be. I work, learn, socialize, live in a (relatively) clean apartment, which I leave to go outside.
It took me way too long accept that depression is not all my fault, that it's a disease, and that I needed to see a real doctor.
For those who suffer, or know those who suffer (that's probably everyone) I really recommend this lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
It's super interesting, it ties all the causes of depression together — childhood trauma, everyday experience, down to the neuron, and chemical reactions. It really helps externalize it.