Unsong, a fantasy novel where the universe is programmable with Hebrew (2015)(unsongbook.com)
unsongbook.com
Unsong, a fantasy novel where the universe is programmable with Hebrew (2015)
https://unsongbook.com/
61 comments
Hey, I am a big fan of HPMOR too, and can absolutely feel your pain of not being able to discuss the book with anyone. Do you have more books that went in a similar direction?
I started reading the Eternal Golden Braid after, which was really good but dense, and for some light fantasy The Name of the Wind was an overall impressive book.
I started reading the Eternal Golden Braid after, which was really good but dense, and for some light fantasy The Name of the Wind was an overall impressive book.
The two books I usually recommend for HPMOR fans are Worm (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/) and The Mother Of Learning (https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/21220/mother-of-learning)
Both considered to be a part of "rational fiction" sub-genre the same as HPMoR.
Greg Egan and Sam Hughes/qntm are both excellent science fiction authors which I have found other HPMOR fans like.
https://www.gregegan.net/
https://qntm.org/fiction
https://www.gregegan.net/
https://qntm.org/fiction
Significant Digits is a quite good sequel (by a different author): http://www.anarchyishyperbole.com/p/significant-digits.html
The Martian and, recently, Project Hail Mary, are written in a completely different style but manage to hit many of the same buttons.
The Martian and, recently, Project Hail Mary, are written in a completely different style but manage to hit many of the same buttons.
HPMOR is my all time favorite book, I've read it multiple times and I am still in awe of it. From the same genre I liked stuff from Alexander Wales, mainly The Metropolitan Man [1], The Dark Wizard of Donkerk [2] and, to a lesser extent, Worth the Candle which was just finished.
While not really intended as rational fiction, Threadbare was a nice read too if you enjoy litRPG.
[1] https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man [2] https://alexanderwales.com/the-dark-wizard-of-donkerk-chapte...
While not really intended as rational fiction, Threadbare was a nice read too if you enjoy litRPG.
[1] https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man [2] https://alexanderwales.com/the-dark-wizard-of-donkerk-chapte...
Reddit to the rescue: r/rational
Their wiki also suggests lots of other books and authors. https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/wiki/
Their wiki also suggests lots of other books and authors. https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/wiki/
Oh wow I knew "there is no antimemetics division" was an outgrowth of SCP, TIL that it's quite literally an SCP serial.
Also I'm already following way too many serials, that's inconvenient.
Also I'm already following way too many serials, that's inconvenient.
I’ve recently discovered fan fiction and am feeding like a pig at a trough!
Sadly Hpmor didn’t click with me though. I liked the science but found the characters themselves undeveloped. Acting rationally is great and all, but with rational people have feelings too and that felt completely missing. I just couldn’t get far into the story sadly.
Sadly Hpmor didn’t click with me though. I liked the science but found the characters themselves undeveloped. Acting rationally is great and all, but with rational people have feelings too and that felt completely missing. I just couldn’t get far into the story sadly.
I encourage you to keep at it a bit more. Lots of folks are put off by the initial "more rational than thou" style of the main character, but what's not immediately apparent is that the book is partially a critique of this kind of thinking
What's more, since this is a well written story, there are good reasons why the character is so off-putting (to some) at the start. It is definitely NOT a case of the author espousing some limited view of elite rationalists as unemotional arrogant know-it-alls.
All the main characters do reveal rich emotional lives as the story progresses.
It's well worth the read. (I've read every book discussed in this thread, and HPMoR is my definite favorite.)
What's more, since this is a well written story, there are good reasons why the character is so off-putting (to some) at the start. It is definitely NOT a case of the author espousing some limited view of elite rationalists as unemotional arrogant know-it-alls.
All the main characters do reveal rich emotional lives as the story progresses.
It's well worth the read. (I've read every book discussed in this thread, and HPMoR is my definite favorite.)
Check out "The Name of the Wind" :)
The full title is actually "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality": http://www.hpmor.com
You are wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_of_the_Wind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_o...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_o...
Sorry for the confusion; the parent comment was different when I replied to it.
It initially started with a quote like:
>as a big fan of Harry Potter
So I was under the impression they may've believed the post was talking about the regular Harry Potter series and recommending something based on Harry Potter rather than HPMOR.
It initially started with a quote like:
>as a big fan of Harry Potter
So I was under the impression they may've believed the post was talking about the regular Harry Potter series and recommending something based on Harry Potter rather than HPMOR.
I felt like this book was incredibly clever, but at times it felt like the pacing was infuriatingly slow. Especially near the start, it feels like there are too many chapters of world building per chapter of story.
Still, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Still, thoroughly enjoyed it.
This is the experience of reading a serial as though it's a novel.
Some of us like that! I'll read Dickens and Dumas cover to cover, I even read Worm at a pretty steady pace.
But I read Unsong as it was being published and it was great. I would eagerly look forward to the next chapter, and each one left me wanting more.
I suggest that the next time you take on a serial, be it a modern web serial or one of the great serials of the Western canon (David Copperfield is excellent), slow your roll. Read a chapter a day, or a chapter a week.
They have an inherently different pacing and if it's frustrating you, slow down.
Some of us like that! I'll read Dickens and Dumas cover to cover, I even read Worm at a pretty steady pace.
But I read Unsong as it was being published and it was great. I would eagerly look forward to the next chapter, and each one left me wanting more.
I suggest that the next time you take on a serial, be it a modern web serial or one of the great serials of the Western canon (David Copperfield is excellent), slow your roll. Read a chapter a day, or a chapter a week.
They have an inherently different pacing and if it's frustrating you, slow down.
I ended up skipping a lot of the Talmud related bits but thoroughly enjoyed the rest. As another commenter said it deserves to be printed, I suspect an editor would cut the length a bit.
There's also an audiobook version, which I found pretty enjoyable (and generally well made considering it's free):
https://unsong.libsyn.com
I enjoyed all the interludes, the main plot seem mostly like a story on which to hang various ideas (but that might reflect my own limited ability to keep the whole story in my head).
https://unsong.libsyn.com
I enjoyed all the interludes, the main plot seem mostly like a story on which to hang various ideas (but that might reflect my own limited ability to keep the whole story in my head).
Hmmmmm...
I have to say the title and the concept of "a universe programmable in some kind of special language" reminds me very much of a webcomic I follow (and wholeheartedly recommend), called Unsounded (https://unsoundedupdates.tumblr.com/). It has the concept of "pymary" (http://www.casualvillain.com/Unsounded/world/index.php?title...), which can be used to "reprogram" reality (which to the uninitiated is indistinguishable from magic), and for that it uses a mysterious language called "Old Tainish". And before anyone raises that objection, from what I can see the comic is older than the novel by ~ 5 years. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, and both these works could be inspired by another source which I'm not aware of...
I have to say the title and the concept of "a universe programmable in some kind of special language" reminds me very much of a webcomic I follow (and wholeheartedly recommend), called Unsounded (https://unsoundedupdates.tumblr.com/). It has the concept of "pymary" (http://www.casualvillain.com/Unsounded/world/index.php?title...), which can be used to "reprogram" reality (which to the uninitiated is indistinguishable from magic), and for that it uses a mysterious language called "Old Tainish". And before anyone raises that objection, from what I can see the comic is older than the novel by ~ 5 years. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, and both these works could be inspired by another source which I'm not aware of...
(Unsounded is not the best fantasy story nor the best fantasy story told in graphical medium, but it is one the best fantasy webcomics around.
But yeah, magic as a secret language (or version where knowledge of the "true names" of things grants power) is old as anything. LeGuin's series was one the most popular studies of the idea, but it crops up in many mythologies. TvTropes has an non-exhaustive list of works that use the idea:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LanguageOfMagic
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYourTrueNam...
But yeah, magic as a secret language (or version where knowledge of the "true names" of things grants power) is old as anything. LeGuin's series was one the most popular studies of the idea, but it crops up in many mythologies. TvTropes has an non-exhaustive list of works that use the idea:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LanguageOfMagic
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYourTrueNam...
Ursula K. LeGuin, Earthsea.
From Wikipedia: One vital aspect of magic is that it is impossible to lie in the old language, so that magic works by forcing the universe to conform to the words spoken by the magician.
From Wikipedia: One vital aspect of magic is that it is impossible to lie in the old language, so that magic works by forcing the universe to conform to the words spoken by the magician.
Elantris is an interesting mirror / inversion of this trope.
There's also "The Gods are Bastards" (currently on hiatus due to author burnout but there's a huge amount of content to go through for first-time readers), which turns out to be something of a created infosphere, the entirety of the setting's "magic" is really sufficiently advanced technology, which is then used by the "mortals" of the world to emulate technology (through sufficiently advanced magic).
There's also "The Gods are Bastards" (currently on hiatus due to author burnout but there's a huge amount of content to go through for first-time readers), which turns out to be something of a created infosphere, the entirety of the setting's "magic" is really sufficiently advanced technology, which is then used by the "mortals" of the world to emulate technology (through sufficiently advanced magic).
So spells just accumulate?
That is, if a mage says something general, all the rest of reality and other mages will just have to deal with it?
That is, if a mage says something general, all the rest of reality and other mages will just have to deal with it?
Disclaimer: it's been a few decades since I read that. I may be completely wrong.
It's not like you can simply say something universe-altering just because you know the right words. You still need the magical ability and if you're not powerful enough in that ability for what you want to say, you simply can't say it.
But otherwise, if the mage is THAT powerful, then, yes, the rest of the universe has to deal with it.
It's not like you can simply say something universe-altering just because you know the right words. You still need the magical ability and if you're not powerful enough in that ability for what you want to say, you simply can't say it.
But otherwise, if the mage is THAT powerful, then, yes, the rest of the universe has to deal with it.
Part of the plot to HPMOR is exactly this: https://hpmor.fandom.com/wiki/Interdict_of_Merlin
'Magic as programming' is a relatively common trope - conceptually, the two have a lot in common, and it ties in nicely to old legends about true names etc.
One nice thing about this book is that is reverses the relation between "magic stuff" and "normal stuff".
[Worldbuilding Spoiler Alert]
In Unsong the world is purely magic to begin with, sustained purely by the divine light until the Archangel Uriel converts all the divine light into science and mathematic to stop the war between hell and heaven.
[Worldbuilding Spoiler Alert]
In Unsong the world is purely magic to begin with, sustained purely by the divine light until the Archangel Uriel converts all the divine light into science and mathematic to stop the war between hell and heaven.
Also, Eragon.
I just read chapter one, and it has intrigued me enough want to read the rest.
It brought to mind the Aronofsky film Pi -- particularly this scene;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vi7043z6tI
It brought to mind the Aronofsky film Pi -- particularly this scene;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vi7043z6tI
Reminds me of "Wizard's Bane" by Rick Cook, where a programmer is summoned into a fantasy world where the magic is highly volatile, and he tames it with Forth.
The book is amazing, but Scott Alexander having such a prodigious writing pace (he also kept writing his blog posts, and working full-time as a psychiatrist) hurts the final rendering of the book. It definitely needs some editing made and changes in the plot pace (MINOR SPOILER: the plot goes slows at first, and suddenly fast in the middle...) but definitely one of the best things I've ever read.
Also, he has written a lot of short story fiction like "The Study of Anglophysics," "it was you who made my blue eyes blue," etc...
I quite enjoyed it (but I'm also a sucker for bad puns).
I highly encourage to follow the links to all the references listed at the end of chapters. Some of the more silly, outrageous or wtf objects, names, events, descriptions don't even do justice to the insanity of real things.
I highly encourage to follow the links to all the references listed at the end of chapters. Some of the more silly, outrageous or wtf objects, names, events, descriptions don't even do justice to the insanity of real things.
By Scott Alexander
Tried adding it to the title but HN complains about it being too long. Thanks for adding it as a comment.
[deleted]
I think it's fine; anyone familiar with the author can probably infer it anyways from such a descriptive title.
[deleted]
How interesting. I'd like to know how heavily this is drawing on Qabalah. And a cursory glance gives the impression that the author is familiar with the Anglican tradition. I'd buy this if it was available in physical form.
EDIT: References to RA Wilson on first click. Very interesting indeed.
EDIT: References to RA Wilson on first click. Very interesting indeed.
It draws very heavily on Qabalah and the rest of Jewish mythology. I'm tempted to spoiler it, but let's just say if you're familiar with Jewish mythology you will have a lot of kneeslapper moments as you read through Unsong.
I enjoyed most of the book. Very interesting references about Judaism for those like me who have no idea.
If you liked this, you might also like
"Friendship is optimal" (https://www.fimfiction.net/story/62074/Friendship-is-Optimal)
And
"the metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (https://web.archive.org/web/20040401174623/http://www.kuro5h..., strongly NSFW)
Both are stories about a singularity that turns the world into a simulation, in which some can program the simulation.
"Friendship is optimal" (https://www.fimfiction.net/story/62074/Friendship-is-Optimal)
And
"the metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (https://web.archive.org/web/20040401174623/http://www.kuro5h..., strongly NSFW)
Both are stories about a singularity that turns the world into a simulation, in which some can program the simulation.
There's also "Ra" - https://qntm.org/ra
I enjoyed this a lot (best book in years for me). There is also an audio version available which is also really good. Thank you Scott Alexander!
I found it unique in many ways and would love to hear if people know more similar books.
I found it unique in many ways and would love to hear if people know more similar books.
All the birds in the sky, by Charlie Jane Anders, has similar themes and I found it very entertaining.
I just learned of Unsong today and will be reading it. The premise though sounds similar to Foundryside, where objects can be “scribed” to change their behavior. A wheel could be told, “the force of gravity is always at a forward angle,” and it would roll forward on its own. It would also pick up speed and momentum and probably break something, so the scribing to get the desired behavior (a self-propelled controllable wheel) quickly becomes more complicated.
That is book one of a trilogy, and the third book is not out yet, so be warned! It’s a great yarn so far though.
That is book one of a trilogy, and the third book is not out yet, so be warned! It’s a great yarn so far though.
I haven't looked at this book yet but I did like HPMOR.
In a different vein, "The God Proof" (a mystery novel revolving around Kurt Gödel's ontological proof of God's existence) was a fun read:
https://jeffreykegler.github.io/personal/gp.html
In a different vein, "The God Proof" (a mystery novel revolving around Kurt Gödel's ontological proof of God's existence) was a fun read:
https://jeffreykegler.github.io/personal/gp.html
all good fiction deserves a dead tree version
https://www.reddit.com/r/unsong/comments/fhoumv/new_readytop...
Fortunately, you can make one fairly easily and cheaply!
Fortunately, you can make one fairly easily and cheaply!
This dropped on hackernews literally the day after I discovered Grabovoy numbers, supposed "cheat codes" to the universe used by Law of Attraction types to enhance their putative manifestation powers.
Grabovoy is an anti-Semite.
None of this is a coincidence, because nothing is a coincidence.
Grabovoy is an anti-Semite.
None of this is a coincidence, because nothing is a coincidence.
Sounds a bit like Snow Crash to me.
This is exactly what I thought!
I love the idea that "consciousness" is a self replicating idea that we as humans have learned somewhere in our past and spread to each other like a virus.
The idea that positive memes can improve the human race over time gives me hope for the future as an antidote distopia. :D
I love the idea that "consciousness" is a self replicating idea that we as humans have learned somewhere in our past and spread to each other like a virus.
The idea that positive memes can improve the human race over time gives me hope for the future as an antidote distopia. :D
Didn‘t read it yet, but I certainly will. This was what i was thinking about when i read an introduction to the Kabbalah and about the hebrew letters. This book sounds very
exciting. Thank you.
There's also the audiobook version https://unsong.libsyn.com/
Is there a way to download the entire thing as an ePub?
Available from several places:
https://github.com/JasonGross/unsong_scraper
https://github.com/Wagk/Unsong-In-Ebook-Format/
https://hiltonbooks.com/details/28589297-unsong.html
Can't remember which one I downloaded, but I guess they are all based on the scraper version
https://github.com/JasonGross/unsong_scraper
https://github.com/Wagk/Unsong-In-Ebook-Format/
https://hiltonbooks.com/details/28589297-unsong.html
Can't remember which one I downloaded, but I guess they are all based on the scraper version
Cheers mate!
Worlds where “magic” is “programmable” just might be in The Matrix.
Anyone with an analytical/rational mindset will probably love both, even if you're normally not into fiction.
Don't expect to be able to discuss it with anyone that hasn't read it - or something like it - though.