Lab-made dairy products are now a reality(newscientist.com)
newscientist.com
Lab-made dairy products are now a reality
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133470-900-real-milk-no-cows-needed-lab-made-dairy-products-are-now-a-reality/
86 comments
It seems like you would want to build a high surface area framework/scaffold of the 3-5 dependent layers above the actual production of milk. One semi important question is how do you determine which genome to use. Each cow for instance produces genetically different milk which is based on its genome and epigenome. My guess is we can probably get to a near product pretty quickly with known tech and the next century will be consumed with making adjustments as more is uncovered about the role played by systems not included in the model. Eventually you will likely end up with a basic model of every system in the cow to achieve actual milk.
It is curious how so much bio technological/financial effort is spent on something that not only does not contribute to the extension of human life but also serves no other purpose than it’s own end. In general milk is more of a cultural commodity than an anything close to a necessity.
Personally I would much rather biotech focused efforts on life saving/extending tech and then we can address other desires later like more perfect hairlines, longer orgasms and memories ect, but such is the conundrum of capitalism trying to determine which humanitarian goal to solve.
It is curious how so much bio technological/financial effort is spent on something that not only does not contribute to the extension of human life but also serves no other purpose than it’s own end. In general milk is more of a cultural commodity than an anything close to a necessity.
Personally I would much rather biotech focused efforts on life saving/extending tech and then we can address other desires later like more perfect hairlines, longer orgasms and memories ect, but such is the conundrum of capitalism trying to determine which humanitarian goal to solve.
What do you mean, food not being lifesaving?
Unless there's a plan to wean off all industries off cow milk, we'll need it to vastly reduce environmental impact.
Unless there's a plan to wean off all industries off cow milk, we'll need it to vastly reduce environmental impact.
Seeing as most of the world population lacks the gene needed to process lactose after adolescence, I’m not sure how much of a peak impact this really has on the environment when compared with something like the global greenhouse emissions caused by crypto currency mining.
> lab-made cheese is far away from being in the shelves
My local grocery store has a ton of them, mostly based on soybeans or nuts like cashews. Presumably you had something different in mind?
My local grocery store has a ton of them, mostly based on soybeans or nuts like cashews. Presumably you had something different in mind?
Surely he means cheese made from milk produced by fermentation as discussed in the article.
Why yes, these cheeses already on the grocery store shelf are usually made from non-dairy milk (example: nut milk) and fermentation.
The article talks about an unsatisfactory one at the beginning.
The article talks about an unsatisfactory one at the beginning.
You're being pedantic at this point. It's clear what the article is conveying.
The article and the parent comment are about producing milk that is identical to cow milk in a bioreactor instead of in a cow's udder. It's not about milk alternatives or cheese from plant sources like cashew.
Just like there are companies working on lab-grown meat vs. meat-like products (e.g. Impossible, Beyond, Planted).
Just like there are companies working on lab-grown meat vs. meat-like products (e.g. Impossible, Beyond, Planted).
I can't access the article, but I'll mention something else. One year ago I met a guy who was working with trying to make bacteria produce caseine and whey. He had some experience making cheese and said that the proteins found in milk are really the secret behind making cheese taste and feel like cheese.
The goal was to just have bacteria, feed them molasses (which is cheap and easy to come by) and get raw milk protein as a result. Much more efficient than actually going through a cow.
"I would love to say that products in stores is only 2 years away, but let's say 5 to be on the safe side".
Milk is substitutable. You loose the taste for it in a year or so. Cheese? I have tried many vegan cheeses. They all suck.
The goal was to just have bacteria, feed them molasses (which is cheap and easy to come by) and get raw milk protein as a result. Much more efficient than actually going through a cow.
"I would love to say that products in stores is only 2 years away, but let's say 5 to be on the safe side".
Milk is substitutable. You loose the taste for it in a year or so. Cheese? I have tried many vegan cheeses. They all suck.
> Milk is substitutable. You loose the taste for it in a year or so. Cheese? I have tried many vegan cheeses. They all suck.
I think there's also a marketing issue with these things. This reminds of two anecdotes.
A few months ago, I got curious and tried one of those "alternative milks". As "milk", they all tasted terribly. Some tried to mimic the taste more than others. Some had tons of seed oils, which, I've heard, aren't all that great for the body. But one of these, I actually liked. It didn't really taste like milk, and it had next to nothing aside from oats and water.
A few years ago, I was out at a bar in Paris and caught a discussion between three people, one French, one Italian and one Wisconsinite. The subject was the cheese brought from the US. And the part that stuck with me was along the lines of: "This doesn't taste like Parmigiano at all. / But it's still very, very good cheese. / I think you'd have much more success selling it as its own name".
My point is that maybe instead of trying to recreate "vegan steaks" or "vegan cheese" or whatever, call it something new and let it stand on its own. It will probably never be the same as "the real thing", and that's OK. Even better if it can forego all those weird, highly processed ingredients needed to try to give it a semblance of texture, etc.
I think there's also a marketing issue with these things. This reminds of two anecdotes.
A few months ago, I got curious and tried one of those "alternative milks". As "milk", they all tasted terribly. Some tried to mimic the taste more than others. Some had tons of seed oils, which, I've heard, aren't all that great for the body. But one of these, I actually liked. It didn't really taste like milk, and it had next to nothing aside from oats and water.
A few years ago, I was out at a bar in Paris and caught a discussion between three people, one French, one Italian and one Wisconsinite. The subject was the cheese brought from the US. And the part that stuck with me was along the lines of: "This doesn't taste like Parmigiano at all. / But it's still very, very good cheese. / I think you'd have much more success selling it as its own name".
My point is that maybe instead of trying to recreate "vegan steaks" or "vegan cheese" or whatever, call it something new and let it stand on its own. It will probably never be the same as "the real thing", and that's OK. Even better if it can forego all those weird, highly processed ingredients needed to try to give it a semblance of texture, etc.
I think it is good that they exist, because sometimes you want something that is similar to food you had growing up. A staple food when I grow up was milk-boiled macaroni with a special kind of sausage (falukorv) and ketchup. I have been able to make it for my kids, and I really like to present at least a small part of my culinary heritage. And sometimes I just want a friggin burger. Which I can get almost everywhere by now, and it is greasy and savoury in all the right ways.
But in general I do think there are great products out there already. In the last years in Sweden tempeh started becoming available, and more brands of tofu (especially smoked varieties) started showing up in the groceries.
People have been eating those for hundreds or thousands of years, and they are amazingly versatile products. I have come to the realization that I don't need new products. I just need to discover the ones that are already available.
But in general I do think there are great products out there already. In the last years in Sweden tempeh started becoming available, and more brands of tofu (especially smoked varieties) started showing up in the groceries.
People have been eating those for hundreds or thousands of years, and they are amazingly versatile products. I have come to the realization that I don't need new products. I just need to discover the ones that are already available.
I noticed this with turkey bacon. It's a poor substitute for pig bacon, but it's pretty good as its own thing.
This page seems to have the entire article
https://rightsandwrongs.co.uk/28357-2/
https://rightsandwrongs.co.uk/28357-2/
> Milk is substitutable. You loose the taste for it in a year or so. Cheese? I have tried many vegan cheeses. They all suck.
I've been trying to make more environmentally conscious food choices: pretty much cut out meat, I didn't drink milk in the first place, but cheese... cheese is my nemesis.
I've been trying to make more environmentally conscious food choices: pretty much cut out meat, I didn't drink milk in the first place, but cheese... cheese is my nemesis.
Living in Switzerland cheese is the main reason I don't know anyone here who has been actually vegan for more than a year or so.
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This company is working on producing casein in genetically modified soy: https://www.nobellfoods.com/
Sounds good - something very like animal proteins without raising entire animals to produce them.
Beyond that though, I'm really interested in foods that could be created that don't mimic existing foods derived from animals or plants. You could imagine a nutritionist defining requirements - combinations of proteins, fats and carbohydrates, various micronutrients. Now add the aesthetics of taste, texture, consistency etc. Some of these would be "ready to eat," either hot or cold, but others could be raw materials for traditional cooking: shred a block of this solid stuff, fry it in that liquid oily stuff, and drizzle some thick spicy stuff on it. Marketers to invent names, of course. Maybe we even get food tailored to us individually, based on specific nutritional needs, fitness goals, religious restrictions or palate.
This doesn't sound appetizing, so I think it would be a gradual process, where new products come out that aren't quite like natural foods, but are still acceptably tasty, and cheaper or more nutritious. Gradually we get things that are quite different. It would take a while, but I suspect in a few hundred years we'll have things that are unimaginable today but as accepted as cheese, beer or sausage. And with much, much lower impact on the biosphere.
Beyond that though, I'm really interested in foods that could be created that don't mimic existing foods derived from animals or plants. You could imagine a nutritionist defining requirements - combinations of proteins, fats and carbohydrates, various micronutrients. Now add the aesthetics of taste, texture, consistency etc. Some of these would be "ready to eat," either hot or cold, but others could be raw materials for traditional cooking: shred a block of this solid stuff, fry it in that liquid oily stuff, and drizzle some thick spicy stuff on it. Marketers to invent names, of course. Maybe we even get food tailored to us individually, based on specific nutritional needs, fitness goals, religious restrictions or palate.
This doesn't sound appetizing, so I think it would be a gradual process, where new products come out that aren't quite like natural foods, but are still acceptably tasty, and cheaper or more nutritious. Gradually we get things that are quite different. It would take a while, but I suspect in a few hundred years we'll have things that are unimaginable today but as accepted as cheese, beer or sausage. And with much, much lower impact on the biosphere.
> Beyond that though, I'm really interested in foods that could be created that don't mimic existing foods derived from animals or plants.
That's literally what processed food is. Nothing from a Twinkie to cheese (one of the oldest processed foods) resembles anything that comes from animals or plants.
Humanity has been doing this for all of recorded history.
Often the processing came of necessity: many of our culinary traditions are simply things that evolved such that we could preserve food pre-refrigeration. The problem is that we still don't seem to be very good at making healthy processed foods, and once you stray away from basic foods, there's strong market pressures to optimize for taste (and, let's be honest, borderline addictiveness) above nutrition.
That's literally what processed food is. Nothing from a Twinkie to cheese (one of the oldest processed foods) resembles anything that comes from animals or plants.
Humanity has been doing this for all of recorded history.
Often the processing came of necessity: many of our culinary traditions are simply things that evolved such that we could preserve food pre-refrigeration. The problem is that we still don't seem to be very good at making healthy processed foods, and once you stray away from basic foods, there's strong market pressures to optimize for taste (and, let's be honest, borderline addictiveness) above nutrition.
The work toward this kind of 'ready to eat' food has already started, with companies selling things like https://mealsquares.com/ or https://jimmyjoy.com/.
The zeitgeist seems to be about going back to more natural food though, at least in my circles.
The underlying fear is that what is sold as 'nutritionally complete' food is actually incomplete, but that we don't know enough about nutrition yet to notice it : so the best strategy is to keep a tried and true diet, like a Mediterranean diet.
The zeitgeist seems to be about going back to more natural food though, at least in my circles.
The underlying fear is that what is sold as 'nutritionally complete' food is actually incomplete, but that we don't know enough about nutrition yet to notice it : so the best strategy is to keep a tried and true diet, like a Mediterranean diet.
Yeah, that is a completely well-founded fear and undoubtedly true in the short term. Living on nothing but meal squares or Soylent would be a bad idea. But I don't imagine anyone would have to do that. Nor do I imagine that synthetic food would have to be nutritionally complete; it'd just be designed with a specific purpose rather than being the byproduct of some organism's survival strategy.
> I'm really interested in foods that could be created that don't mimic existing foods derived from animals or plants. You could imagine a nutritionist defining requirements - combinations of proteins, fats and carbohydrates, various micronutrients.
This is what milk is, really. It's specifically designed to be the exact balance of nutrients needed -- by an infant. (And in this case, an infant cow.) It'll be hard to beat what we already have.
This is what milk is, really. It's specifically designed to be the exact balance of nutrients needed -- by an infant. (And in this case, an infant cow.) It'll be hard to beat what we already have.
True. But we aren't infant cows. We have different and more varied needs. So I guess I'm wondering what milk would be like if we designed it for weaned humans, in various circumstances.
Soylent, Huel etc... admittedly they're made out of various plants rather than growing their proteins etc. in a vat.
True that we aren't infant cows, but we're very close. There aren't many nutrients that we need but they don't, or vice versa (vitamin C is an exception) -- the bigger difference would be in relative amounts. You can live quite happily for a long, long time on a diet of bread and cow milk.
I saw one commentator below mention quorn, but I think it depends on how this was done, presented and marketed.
Some top chefs do something approaching this - not quite at the molecular level in the way mentioned here, in a lab (although it's called molecular gastronomy), but nevertheless experimenting with different combinations and techniques. Artisanal experimentation vs industrial production.
Some top chefs do something approaching this - not quite at the molecular level in the way mentioned here, in a lab (although it's called molecular gastronomy), but nevertheless experimenting with different combinations and techniques. Artisanal experimentation vs industrial production.
>don't mimic existing foods derived from animals or plants
But all good tastes we know and enjoy are from animals or plants. You have to mimic existing foods for people to like (and buy) it.
But all good tastes we know and enjoy are from animals or plants. You have to mimic existing foods for people to like (and buy) it.
Well, sure, all good tastes come from animals or plants because that's the only stuff we can eat. It doesn't mean that no other good tastes are possible.
With every sentence I read, I kept saying "quorn. quorn. quorn." and it just kept applying more and more.
The problem with Quorn [0] is that it's only just acceptably tasty. People looking for price will just buy rice and beans and oatmeal, and people looking for taste will buy meat or tastier, more modern meat substitutes (think Impossible).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn
The problem with Quorn [0] is that it's only just acceptably tasty. People looking for price will just buy rice and beans and oatmeal, and people looking for taste will buy meat or tastier, more modern meat substitutes (think Impossible).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn
As someone who was brought up vegetarian but later ate meat occasionally, I personally prefer the taste and texture of Quorn pieces, mince and sausages. I’ve never tried the stuff that tries to more directly imitate meat though. More generally I find the rise of vegan foods that try to emulate the taste and texture of meat quite disappointing, but they’ve pushed good vegetarian food out of many menus.
Yeah. I wasn't familiar with Quorn, but it does sound like what I'm talking about. You don't think we'll ever be able to improve on Quorn?
(I personally find Quorn OK, but I'm not a fussy eater.)
I am hesitant to say it will never happen. On the other hand, Quorn has been on the market for a surprisingly long time, and AFAIK has not made any leaps in quality, so I don't know if it ever will.
I am hesitant to say it will never happen. On the other hand, Quorn has been on the market for a surprisingly long time, and AFAIK has not made any leaps in quality, so I don't know if it ever will.
It'll be interesting what molecular gastronomy looks like after the first few iterations of AlphaEats
Beyond that though, I'm really interested in foods that could be created that don't mimic existing foods
Isn't this exactly what Soylent is/was?
Isn't this exactly what Soylent is/was?
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The dairy industry was already in trouble. Milk consumption is declining. Frantic efforts to add cheese to everything seem to have reached some limit. New studies indicate that adults should not have more than two servings of dairy products per day. Lactose intolerance is rising in the US population.
Now this.
Now this.
> Lactose intolerance is rising in the US population
Isn't it just the logical consequence of non-European immigration? AFAIK lactose intolerance is a pretty well-known phenomenon (unlike gluten): mamals are lactose intolerant after weaning, and as such most humans are so. There exist a few places (northern Europe, subsaharian Africa, southern? India, somewhere in the middle East) where the same kind of nonsense mutation on the gene responsible for weaning appeared, so people from there are usually lactose tolerant even after being weaned. The more people not coming from there there is in your population, the less lactose tolerant your population will be.
Edit: incorrect english wording
Isn't it just the logical consequence of non-European immigration? AFAIK lactose intolerance is a pretty well-known phenomenon (unlike gluten): mamals are lactose intolerant after weaning, and as such most humans are so. There exist a few places (northern Europe, subsaharian Africa, southern? India, somewhere in the middle East) where the same kind of nonsense mutation on the gene responsible for weaning appeared, so people from there are usually lactose tolerant even after being weaned. The more people not coming from there there is in your population, the less lactose tolerant your population will be.
Edit: incorrect english wording
You can consume milk happily for decades, then stop or drastically reduce your intake, and then every time you consume a bit too much you get diarrhea.
In most cultures with a majority of lactose tolerant people, there's a lot of lactose in everyday food, so people missing the mutation usually never complete their weaning before long in adulthood, when for some reason they “stop or drastically reduce [their] intake”.
Unless you know for sure that you have the mutation, stopping drinking milk or consuming dairies at some point in your life comes with a risk of not being able to drink milk ever again in your life. (I don't mean that going vegan is bad or anything, but I wish people knew it can come with a bigger commitment that what you may expect)
Unless you know for sure that you have the mutation, stopping drinking milk or consuming dairies at some point in your life comes with a risk of not being able to drink milk ever again in your life. (I don't mean that going vegan is bad or anything, but I wish people knew it can come with a bigger commitment that what you may expect)
That sure isn't how my lactose intolerance went. I stopped drinking milk as a child because it became unpleasant and as an adult have no trouble eating the many dairy products that don't have a lot of lactose (cheese, yogurt, etc).
> severed
What does this mean in the context you're using it?
What does this mean in the context you're using it?
weaning is what I meant. I didn't know that word and because severing is really close to sevrage (the French word) and semantically close to it, I assumed it meant the same while writing and only realized it was incorrect when I checked after pressing the reply button. My bad.
New studies indicate that adults should not have more than two servings of dairy products per day.
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
Dairy is best avoided altogether.
It's the most common allergen. Even in smallest amounts it's inflammatory even in those without obvious IgE allergy (tests for allergies are notoriously imprecise, even things like RAST and in-vitro lymphocyte stimulation).
It's the most common allergen. Even in smallest amounts it's inflammatory even in those without obvious IgE allergy (tests for allergies are notoriously imprecise, even things like RAST and in-vitro lymphocyte stimulation).
There's emerging evidence that consumption of Neu5Gc, a sialic acid that coats non-human mammalian proteins, is a cause of chronic inflammation in humans:
1. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Glycolylneuraminic_acid#Effe...
2. MedCram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkRilP1OTU
1. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Glycolylneuraminic_acid#Effe...
2. MedCram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkRilP1OTU
very interesting. how did you come by this?
MedCram is the best source of medical information on YouTube intended for a med school level audience. All of their videos are superb. I watch all their videos :)
> Lactose intolerance is rising in the US population.
Is that not largely due to the change in ethnic composition? (And a fairly slight effect at that)
Is that not largely due to the change in ethnic composition? (And a fairly slight effect at that)
I'd also like to see those studies of yours. And I wonder if that accounts for lactase persistent people like me, and accounts for a more healthy population because the saturated fats of milk is probably more harmful to an already more overweight group.
"now this" is a good thing that is happening. The dairy industry (mega farms) pollute like few others and with the way they treat animals it is good if that entire industry can be replaced by something else. The farming industry also receives billion upon billions in farm subsidies (at least in the EU). Money that can be saved when the farms has gone out of business.
>Frantic efforts to add cheese to everything seem to have reached some limit.
Good. It's remarkable how much cheese is included in restaurant meals. If you want to avoid it then it narrows the choice substantially.
Good. It's remarkable how much cheese is included in restaurant meals. If you want to avoid it then it narrows the choice substantially.
Here is a guy doing the gene editing to make yeast produce milk, at home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiWnygcYsiQ
Making the milk taste correct, should not be easy. It contains many smaller compounds not found by just generating the primary proteins. Which is probably the reason the first companies are creating cheese from lab grown milk: https://www.realvegancheese.org/
Making the milk taste correct, should not be easy. It contains many smaller compounds not found by just generating the primary proteins. Which is probably the reason the first companies are creating cheese from lab grown milk: https://www.realvegancheese.org/
As a side-side note, if the cost is acceptable, there could be some uses to make some form of galalith a more common kind of plastic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith
Nowadays it is only used for buttons and some other small fashion accessories, but it has a lot of interesting properties, although the classic manufacturing process (curing) is very slow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith
Nowadays it is only used for buttons and some other small fashion accessories, but it has a lot of interesting properties, although the classic manufacturing process (curing) is very slow.
This should also impact the meat industry. I understand cows need to have calves to produce milk, these calves usually end up as food so the industry must currently have interlocked supply/demand between these somehow.
This interlock might mean a lot of pushback from the industry regarding this technology.
This interlock might mean a lot of pushback from the industry regarding this technology.
Female calves go back into the system, whereas male calves can go two ways: 1. Disposed of (in the dumpster until collection) or 2. Sold off like you mentioned, although not usually for human consumption as dairy cows are very different to cows for meat. Usually they are disposed of though.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-di...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-di...
We don't have (a lot?) Of the classic diary cows here in Switzerland. My neighbor calves are grown either 8 months (grown calv) or ~12 months ('cow') and sold as meat. A majority of our cow meat is grown in such a 'organic' way.
Slight impact yes, but pushback not really. Modern dairy breeds are very different from meat breeds. Using dairy breed calves for consumption is a reaction to the problem of calf disposal but not a necessity of meat production.
Female calves are raised to make more milk. Male calves are rare due to new tech which filters the sperm pre-insemination.
According to the marketing/advertising departments of many corporations in the west, this was available years ago, with all sorts of plant/nut juices being labelled "milk".
Did you mean centuries? Look in your favorite pre-Reformation European cookbook for the special recipes for Fridays and Lent.
why mention cow, it's lab made milk
i don't want lab milk, i want milk from the cow that had a sweet and free life with its set of (good) bacteria
i don't want a pasteurized milk
it's an alternative to industrial milk, maybe
but not an alternative to fresh cow or other animal's milk
people who push this want to sell you a product, they don't care about what it is
i'll never buy one of their product
Oh and, life is already an open space lab
i don't want lab milk, i want milk from the cow that had a sweet and free life with its set of (good) bacteria
i don't want a pasteurized milk
it's an alternative to industrial milk, maybe
but not an alternative to fresh cow or other animal's milk
people who push this want to sell you a product, they don't care about what it is
i'll never buy one of their product
Oh and, life is already an open space lab
It's not natural for any mammal to keep producing milk. So it's unlikely that the cow had a "sweet and free life".
Cows are forcefully inseminated and once born their calves are taken away.
How would you feel if someone kept you in a Matrix-like farm to harvest energy or protein from you?
Cows are forcefully inseminated and once born their calves are taken away.
How would you feel if someone kept you in a Matrix-like farm to harvest energy or protein from you?
I went to a dairy farm recently, the cows were free-range but it was such a gross environment, they were covered in flies and mud. Wild animals don't look like that, I've seen buffalo in national parks and they don't look half as decrepit as dairy cows.
Buffalo in Yellowstone are not a useful reference point here. I hunt animals across the US, and I can assure you that flies and mud is the LEAST of the problems wild animals have to deal with.
A particularly revolting example:
https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjz-2018-0140#.W9tXqRN...
A study published in the Canadian Journal of Zoology in 2018 found that from 2014 to 2016, 70 percent of moose calves in west-central Maine and northern New Hampshire died of emaciation by winter tick infestation. On average, each animal hosted 47,371 ticks.
A particularly revolting example:
https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/cjz-2018-0140#.W9tXqRN...
A study published in the Canadian Journal of Zoology in 2018 found that from 2014 to 2016, 70 percent of moose calves in west-central Maine and northern New Hampshire died of emaciation by winter tick infestation. On average, each animal hosted 47,371 ticks.
what about bacterias you create in lab, why can't they enjoy an as sweet and as free life as the cow i get my milk from?
bacterias are same kind of creatures as cows
oh and what's the point of life if everything is lab made and if we all live in a spaceship doing nothing but trying to reverse engineer life and reimplement everything in a lab
as pointless as everything else, including what i do
bacterias are same kind of creatures as cows
oh and what's the point of life if everything is lab made and if we all live in a spaceship doing nothing but trying to reverse engineer life and reimplement everything in a lab
as pointless as everything else, including what i do
newscientist used to be one of my favorite news outlets, and them going paywall would not bug me as much if just a few weeks before going paywall, they didn't (justifiably) go on a rant how paywalls destroy science... Now a feeling of resentment prevails.
Yeah, I know it's off topic, but there are already complaints here about it being paywalled, so I had to vent.
Yeah, I know it's off topic, but there are already complaints here about it being paywalled, so I had to vent.
[deleted]
TL;DR They are not making milk.They don't seem close.
They are helping making animal free icecream that might be better than current dairy free.
They are helping making animal free icecream that might be better than current dairy free.
Are they?
I can't access the article behind the paywall, but I ultimately have a very simple question: Where can I (living in Germany, Europe) buy one of these milk alternatives that tastes like milk? Can you name a shop?
I would like to buy it. I'm willing to pay a premium. I feel this is an important enough development given the high greenhouse gas impact of milk that I'd like to be an early adopter.
It's not the first time I read about something like this, but often enough if you look into some of these plant replacements it's some startup saying "we have fancy tech that allows us to create this product that really is like the original", but they only announce it, but haven't gotten to the point to actually produce and sell it.
I can't access the article behind the paywall, but I ultimately have a very simple question: Where can I (living in Germany, Europe) buy one of these milk alternatives that tastes like milk? Can you name a shop?
I would like to buy it. I'm willing to pay a premium. I feel this is an important enough development given the high greenhouse gas impact of milk that I'd like to be an early adopter.
It's not the first time I read about something like this, but often enough if you look into some of these plant replacements it's some startup saying "we have fancy tech that allows us to create this product that really is like the original", but they only announce it, but haven't gotten to the point to actually produce and sell it.
I'm worried that there might be regulatory hurdles. The article says:
> nobody has to convince regulators that the foods are fit for human consumption, because they are made using microorganisms and processes that are already “generally recognised as safe”.
But the only mention of the "food industry" is FDA, which is specific to the USA:
> When Perfect Day asked the FDA to approve its whey protein in 2020, the agency said yes right away.
> nobody has to convince regulators that the foods are fit for human consumption, because they are made using microorganisms and processes that are already “generally recognised as safe”.
But the only mention of the "food industry" is FDA, which is specific to the USA:
> When Perfect Day asked the FDA to approve its whey protein in 2020, the agency said yes right away.
But is a "real milk alternative" available in the US? Perfect Day seems to only sell ice cream. (I don't eat a lot of ice cream, but from what I can tell vegan ice cream alternatives are already pretty good. It's actual milk - and cheese - that are the challenge.)
is it not easier to simply buy carbon offsets, if that's your actual concern in the first place?
We will never replicate the real thing closely enough. Microbiome/proteome alone is going to be impossible, without all the small peptides and antibodies - it will never be the same.
Milk itself isn't the healthiest food either. Cow milk is the most prevalent allergen, but it's mostly chronic inflammation instead of full blown anaphylaxis and thus ignored. You do not have to be lactose intolerant, it is true allergy to proteins in milk.
https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut...
Humans were not supposed to eat it. It was just something that helped us survive in frozen wastelands.
We will never replicate the real thing closely enough. Microbiome/proteome alone is going to be impossible, without all the small peptides and antibodies - it will never be the same.
Milk itself isn't the healthiest food either. Cow milk is the most prevalent allergen, but it's mostly chronic inflammation instead of full blown anaphylaxis and thus ignored. You do not have to be lactose intolerant, it is true allergy to proteins in milk.
https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut...
Humans were not supposed to eat it. It was just something that helped us survive in frozen wastelands.
> is it not easier to simply buy carbon offsets, if that's your actual concern in the first place?
My concern is not my personal carbon footprint (I am very skeptical about the concept in general), my goal would be helping to make technologies available faster that can make a dent in societies carbon footprint as a whole.
And carbon offsets are hugely problematic. I'm inclined to say the vast majority of them are close to being a scam.
My concern is not my personal carbon footprint (I am very skeptical about the concept in general), my goal would be helping to make technologies available faster that can make a dent in societies carbon footprint as a whole.
And carbon offsets are hugely problematic. I'm inclined to say the vast majority of them are close to being a scam.
skeptical about the concept in general...but want to make a dent in societies carbon footprint...?
Doesn't personal footprint translate into societal footprint?
Otherwise, nothing short of banning all food and force-feeding everyone bugs, or having a few world wars is going to make a dent.
Doesn't personal footprint translate into societal footprint?
Otherwise, nothing short of banning all food and force-feeding everyone bugs, or having a few world wars is going to make a dent.
Eh, we can force feed everyone processed beans instead.
I buy carbon offsets to try to blunt my impact but I'd also pay a premium for more sustainable milk (and more importantly cheese) that was harder to distinguish.
Carbon offsetting is a poor substitute for just not having a big carbon footprint to begin with. It's a sticking plaster at best, and incredibly hard to verify the impact of as an individual consumer.
Carbon offsetting is a poor substitute for just not having a big carbon footprint to begin with. It's a sticking plaster at best, and incredibly hard to verify the impact of as an individual consumer.
I can't read it either, but you don't have to be too clever to realize, that we haven't made a technology advancement so great, that we can cheat nature. So you are telling me, you have done something cows and other animals do, and it's healthier and cheaper than current milk? You either have some stuff of what Albert Einstein had inside, or just really good selling shit with good marketing... C'mon guys, we can't fall for any of this shit or any other PROCCESSED FOODS!
Not reading an article and then claiming you know what’s in it is a bad look.
Am I wrong is the question? You are just voting based on opinions... it seems to me, you are not reading yourself...
You’re wrong in that you didn’t post anything substantial and are just complaining about processed foods, which doesn’t contribute to this discussion at all.
Thanks for saying that I am not wrong, your insecurities point straight about what I am talking about. I am saying, that the product the post is promoting to be awesome it obviously not. Because you can't understand that, you undermine my assestment. Good job! and thanks!
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This is interesting research, but lab-made cheese is far away from being in the shelves. Producing casein with yeast is one thing, but that doesn't mean you can just make cheese out of it. In cow or goat milk (or sheep milk), there are 4 different casein proteins arranged in micelles together with other molecules. That exact set up is important, because when you add rennet (i.e. mostly the enzyme chymosin) to it for coagulation, it cuts the kappa caseins (which are on the outside of the micelles) at a specific position. That's key to the process that is set in motion after that, leading to the texture, taste and function we know from different cheeses.
Other challenges include the mass production of casein in this way. Cheeses contain typcially between 10-15% protein per weight, so you need to produce a lot of it. This is unlike e.g., Impossible Foods, which also produce heme with yeast, but of course they need much less of it per kg of meat.
We're looking at ways of directly make cheese from plant proteins by finding an enzyme that works similarly how chymosin works with casein. It's not clear if this will work - but if does, it will be a cheaper and simpler process than trying to produce milk synthetically.
That doesn't mean that I dismiss the synthetic casein approach - I think it can work, it's just important to understand that it's not as simple it sounds. In the future, we might see cheeses made with both approaches, maybe each with their pros and cons.